Racial Passives (a poll)

Marginis

Now now now, calm down everyone. I know there are a million threads out there about racial passive abilities. I'm not here to stoke the flames. I want legitimate solutions to what we can all agree is not the best situation. Regardless of everyone's leanings on the issue, we can all pretty much agree that racial passives are not perfect as is. Right?

Okay, so let's take a look at other things we can agree on.

• Racial passives and differences make sense in a TES game. They've been part of TES a long time, and breaking with tradition can hurt hardcore TES fans.
• TESO is an MMO, not a single player RPG. However we do it, we need balance, or in the very least, combat balance. Upsetting this delicate thing upends a whole host of other aspects of the game.
• Despite our focus on this, racial passives are NOT the number one issue we need to solve in the game. It's important, judging by everyone's (my own included) posts and opinions on the matter, but I think we'd all agree there are more pressing problems in the game to deal with. So keep that in mind when discussing.
• Whatever changes are made, remember that it takes time and resources from ZOS, and that whatever they end up doing will have to satisfy at least a majority of players. So extreme solutions are probably not the best.

So those are things we can basically agree on. If you're not 100% on board, that's okay. Let's put that aside for the sake of having a civil discussion to actually figure out what the best thing to do from here is. I'll put up all the "solutions" to the racial passive situation I've seen or heard so far, whether I think they're viable or not, and everyone gets to pick. This way we can get a bit more accurate representation of the ESO forum-goers than we might normally see.

Sparr0w

Keep it one stat, but have it based on attribute points e.g. have all in stam = max stam/stam regen/weapon crit & vice versa.

Turelus

Leave them as they are, with the option to do tweaks and balance passes.

If people feel so pigeon holed into choosing min/max stats they can race change/roll those choices.

If people want to play a specific race they can play that race.

Unless you're playing super competitive PvP or end game progression trials then they really don't matter as much as people make so much fuss about.
I've done all the DLC dungeons with an Orc DK Healer and Khajiit MagSorc DPS in my group. I've also healed vet content as an Orc Warden Healer.

Marginis

Turelus wrote: »

Leave them as they are, with the option to do tweaks and balance passes.

If people feel so pigeon holed into choosing min/max stats they can race change/roll those choices.

If people want to play a specific race they can play that race.

Unless you're playing super competitive PvP or end game progression trials then they really don't matter as much as people make so much fuss about.
I've done all the DLC dungeons with an Orc DK Healer and Khajiit MagSorc DPS in my group. I've also healed vet content as an Orc Warden Healer.

Remember, we're taking into account what is good for all players - that includes those who care about both race and endgame or high level activities.

Sparr0w

Actually change of mind, listing all current sets (not mix and match) & choosing one would probably be the better option... shame you can't change vote.

Aznox

Marginis wrote: »

Remember, we're taking into account what is good for all players - that includes those who care about both race and endgame or high level activities.

I'm quite the min-maxer tryhard pvp player type, and i decided not to change my khajiit to an orc (even though i have bough the token) because in the end the difference is not that big and i'v grown attached to my toon.

Sometimes it's good to make choices that are a compromise and not just pure math.

Marginis

Aznox wrote: »

Marginis wrote: »

Remember, we're taking into account what is good for all players - that includes those who care about both race and endgame or high level activities.

I'm quite the min-maxer tryhard pvp player type, and i decided not to change my khajiit to an orc (even though i have bough the token) because in the end the difference is not that big and i'v grown attached to my toon.

Sometimes it's good to make choices that are a compromise and not just pure math.

Definitely. Just wanted to point out that "who cares about those types of players" is not a fair argument. The opinion that we should keep the current system is fine - that's what this is for, to gather a representation of opinions.

Maura_Neysa

Marginis wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

Leave them as they are, with the option to do tweaks and balance passes.

If people feel so pigeon holed into choosing min/max stats they can race change/roll those choices.

If people want to play a specific race they can play that race.

Unless you're playing super competitive PvP or end game progression trials then they really don't matter as much as people make so much fuss about.
I've done all the DLC dungeons with an Orc DK Healer and Khajiit MagSorc DPS in my group. I've also healed vet content as an Orc Warden Healer.

Remember, we're taking into account what is good for all players - that includes those who care about both race and endgame or high level activities.

I agree they don't matter nearly as much as people think. However they should still help. A Mag Redguard gets absolutely nothing from their racial passives. Same is true of an Altmer Stam DPS. My Altmer Warden Tank however benefits from all the racial passives. Thats the difference I see as lacking. Maybe I wouldn't feel that way if builds were a little more hybrid like tanks, but that's a different conversation.

Turelus

Marginis wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

Leave them as they are, with the option to do tweaks and balance passes.

If people feel so pigeon holed into choosing min/max stats they can race change/roll those choices.

If people want to play a specific race they can play that race.

Unless you're playing super competitive PvP or end game progression trials then they really don't matter as much as people make so much fuss about.
I've done all the DLC dungeons with an Orc DK Healer and Khajiit MagSorc DPS in my group. I've also healed vet content as an Orc Warden Healer.

Remember, we're taking into account what is good for all players - that includes those who care about both race and endgame or high level activities.

If you're truly interested in competitive (talking leaderboards) end game you should really abandon all desire for what you want to play (this goes for all games) because due to balancing there will always be optimal choices of what to play to get the better times.
If you care about race and end game content, then play what build/role is best for you race.

Altmer - Be a MagDD
Argonian - Be a healer or tank
etc.

The only time there is an issue is if you won't play what your race is best suited for. If we're also catering to all players we need to make a lot more changes than just racial passives. I mean what about Warden players who want to be end game?

Froil

A mix between make passives non-combat oriented, selection specific to their race and just a simple re-balance all sound good to me...

Non-combat passives would be a skillpoint sink though.

The selection could be interesting depending on what's made available.

Overall though I feel as though minor re-balancing is required, especially for weaker races like Nords.

JinMori

I am torn between keep them as it is and let us choose them, but only on one condition, they must be earned through a system, you will begin with your standard racials, like for example you are a nord, but if you dedicate yourself to learning magic, you can then choose racial passives from more magical attuned races, likewise for stamina.

DaveMoeDee

I don't agree that we need balance. I agree that some people would benefit from balance. From my perspective, the game would benefit from less re-balancing. Or something close to an end of it.

Lynx7386

Closest option to what i would like. I think each race should be equally viable for both stamina, magicka, and hybrid builds.

In my particular case, khajiit, I want to see carnage changed back to it's original version giving both spell crit and weapon crit.
I also think all health recovery racials need to be changed to max health instead, as health recovery is a wasted stat

Marginis

Turelus wrote: »

Marginis wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

Leave them as they are, with the option to do tweaks and balance passes.

If people feel so pigeon holed into choosing min/max stats they can race change/roll those choices.

If people want to play a specific race they can play that race.

Unless you're playing super competitive PvP or end game progression trials then they really don't matter as much as people make so much fuss about.
I've done all the DLC dungeons with an Orc DK Healer and Khajiit MagSorc DPS in my group. I've also healed vet content as an Orc Warden Healer.

Remember, we're taking into account what is good for all players - that includes those who care about both race and endgame or high level activities.

If you're truly interested in competitive (talking leaderboards) end game you should really abandon all desire for what you want to play (this goes for all games) because due to balancing there will always be optimal choices of what to play to get the better times.
If you care about race and end game content, then play what build/role is best for you race.

Altmer - Be a MagDD
Argonian - Be a healer or tank
etc.

The only time there is an issue is if you won't play what your race is best suited for. If we're also catering to all players we need to make a lot more changes than just racial passives. I mean what about Warden players who want to be end game?

Like I said in the main post, there are other issues that are more important to attend to, but this issue still matters. I agree, all classes, Wardens included, should be good for endgame (and in the role you find most suitable, if we're doing the play how you want thing TES games promote), just as all races should.

Marginis

DaveMoeDee wrote: »

I don't agree that we need balance. I agree that some people would benefit from balance. From my perspective, the game would benefit from less re-balancing. Or something close to an end of it.

We can only dream that games would come out and already be well balanced, never needing any rebalancing ever cuz they're already perfect lol.

Aznox

Lynx7386 wrote: »

Closest option to what i would like. I think each race should be equally viable for both stamina, magicka, and hybrid builds.

Equally (as in "=" ) is not possible, apart from making them all the same.

People are prompt to propose changes that would fit them, but they forget the tiniest change can have big implications on the overall game balance.

In my particular case, khajiit, I want to see carnage changed back to it's original version giving both spell crit and weapon crit.

This change for example, would make my werewolf form even stronger, and believe me you don't want that.

I also think all health recovery racials need to be changed to max health instead, as health recovery is a wasted stat

This change would fit you, but what about my Troll King build i adopted partially because i adapted to what here in the first place ?

People are free to use this forum however they want, but i get tired by this endless stream of "i wanted things to be like this" while I'm just here to learn as much as possible "how things are" to better adapt to it.

/rant, sorry

eso_nya

I would keep my polar opposite of meta passives, cause i got used to them and wouldnt wanna miss them (magicka based bosmer). Im okay with giving other ppl a choice tho.

Amdar_Godkiller

I feel like racial passives should be a trade off rather than a dps handout to certain races. Racial passives shouldn't be skill point investments, but rather they should be inherent to your character from their creation, and they should grant bonuses that are balanced with drawbacks. For instance, high elves should be powerful in magicka, but susceptible to physical damage.

Without negative racial passives, it's impossible to balance racial passives, and actual choice is eliminated from the character creation process as well.

Marginis

Aznox wrote: »

Lynx7386 wrote: »

Closest option to what i would like. I think each race should be equally viable for both stamina, magicka, and hybrid builds.

Equally (as in "=" ) is not possible, apart from making them all the same.

People are prompt to propose changes that would fit them, but they forget the tiniest change can have big implications on the overall game balance.

In my particular case, khajiit, I want to see carnage changed back to it's original version giving both spell crit and weapon crit.

This change for example, would make my werewolf form even stronger, and believe me you don't want that.

I also think all health recovery racials need to be changed to max health instead, as health recovery is a wasted stat

This change would fit you, but what about my Troll King build i adopted partially because i adapted to what here in the first place ?

People are free to use this forum however they want, but i get tired by this endless stream of "i wanted things to be like this" while I'm just here to learn as much as possible "how things are" to better adapt to it.

/rant, sorry

The forums are used to explain things as well as suggest things. This falls into the suggestions category. I understand how it can get... annoying and needy, let's say, at times, but some, myself included, feel strongly, y'know?

Aznox

The forums are used to explain things as well as suggest things

It's true but often those who do the most suggesting are those who would benefit the most from getting some explaining done to them ... quite infuriating.

This thread is fine however

Amdar_Godkiller wrote: »

I feel like racial passives should be a trade off rather than a dps handout to certain races. Racial passives shouldn't be skill point investments, but rather they should be inherent to your character from their creation, and they should grant bonuses that are balanced with drawbacks. For instance, high elves should be powerful in magicka, but susceptible to physical damage.

Without negative racial passives, it's impossible to balance racial passives, and actual choice is eliminated from the character creation process as well.

You don't need negative passives for that, the opportunity cost of not picking another race passives IS a trade-off.

Again, as long as differentiated passives will exist (positive or positive/negative), some races will be described as mathematically better for some roles/build/classes/...

I'm all for some adjustments from time to time to follow overall game balance and meta changes, but i think only ZoS and not us the players would be able to make unbiased decisions.

MerlinPendragon

Leave them the same.

Only possible change needed is a slight rebalance for Nords. Rest are fine.

DoobZ69

Turelus wrote: »

I've done all the DLC dungeons with an Orc DK Healer and Khajiit MagSorc DPS in my group. I've also healed vet content as an Orc Warden Healer.

And I've had CP 20s in my vet dungeons refusing to leave because they wanted to "prove they can do it" whilst being totally carried. Just because someone is being an idiot and gets away with it doesn't mean it should be accepted as the norm.

The current system should accommodate for future alterations of the character - like switching from mag to stam - and the current system does not.
Rebalancing will have the same problem as above.
Elimination of passives is taking AWAY from the game and is an insulting option for an MMO. By that logic they should delete all the classes, skills, content, etc. and is not something being asked for by people who ask for racial passive corrections.
Individual racial passives would still (unless done correctly) result in shoehorning a race into a more or less specific role and does not solve the problem.
Choosing your own racials could potentially solve the problem but then they won't be tied to race so that's just turning it into a different mechanic and essentially the same as eliminating the passives.
Make all passives give a stamina+mag passive bonuses is the most reasonable solution but is probably the biggest reason people are against changing the current system - it homogenises the races and makes them washed down. I would opt for this only as a last resort as I believe things could be done better.
Non-combat oriented passives are boring and again takes away from the game.
Training speeds - same as above.

I voted Other - I've suggested a system of 1 stamina oriented passive, 1 magicka oriented passive and 3rd being a morphable into either. It achieves balance and accommodated for future radical changes in role choices for the player. eg from mag healer to stam dps. First 2 choices leave it a lockable racial passive and will potentially be useful to either mag or stam build. The 3rd would be a racial defining skill which the player will be able to choose - does he want a stam or mag bonus - up to him. This would keep flavour and make race choices a fair and balanced process at the start as well as at CP1500.

Current system implies this - pick your race and play to its strengths or be subpar. The suggestion that this only comes into effect at high end game with vet trials is total nonsense. As soon as a player hits 160 and joins a vet dungeon they are judged on their race+class+role composition. When a player is just learning the content, with a group that is doing the same, every little bit helps and racials are the first line of permanent advantage/disadvantage.

If I see an argonian dps join my group I roll my eyes because the runs will be longer than it has to be. Instead of a 20 min run it could be 30mins. It WILL be complete if everyone is competent enough but isn't optimal and can be annoying. I certainly wouldn't be befriending that guy to run with me in the future based on his performance. All based on his racial choice, go figure.

Someone suggested to me that a player complaining about a certain race not being meta is a player problem. Well if races were balanced to suit every class+role combo then they would have no good argument and stop complaining. So how is it a player problem when the race passives are clearly broken? Churr!

Aznox

DoobZ69 wrote: »

If I see an argonian dps join my group I roll my eyes because the runs will be longer than it has to be. Instead of a 20 min run it could be 30mins. It WILL be complete if everyone is competent enough but isn't optimal and can be annoying. I certainly wouldn't be befriending that guy to run with me in the future based on his performance. All based on his racial choice, go figure.

Let's simplify and say both dps would normally share 100% of the damage or 50% each in your 20min run.

Going from 20 to to 30 min would need the "clueless argonian dps" to do 66,6% less dps.

A reasonable estimate would be a 3% dps loss for your "clueless argonian dps".

That makes the 20min run into ... a 20min and 18,3 seconds run.


But hey, let's hear everyone's opinion about game balance, even those who throw random numbers around to make their point !

Tasear

Weakness also brings diversity and a different kind of strength. You have to build with what you have instead what you don't.

Saphayla

How about creating another Ultimate system, but this time it's about race? The problem with passives is that they're active all the time, so they're limited in terms of what they can do. Having one or two race-specific active abilities, for example, for Khajiit, one that gives me a 30% speed bonus for 15 seconds and another that gives me invisibility for 10 seconds, and you can activate a racial ability, say, once every 40 seconds. These shouldn't require stamina or magicka, instead being like another version of Ultimates, and be given their own extra bar slot. They should reflect the lore of the race, but also be designed in a way that benefits most playstyles (for example 30% speed bonus for Khajiit can work well not just with a stamina oriented character, and in PvP invisibility is useful to everyone (I think, I don't play PvP)).

Azurya

looks like most have still active brains^^

Turelus

Marginis wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

Marginis wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

Leave them as they are, with the option to do tweaks and balance passes.

If people feel so pigeon holed into choosing min/max stats they can race change/roll those choices.

If people want to play a specific race they can play that race.

Unless you're playing super competitive PvP or end game progression trials then they really don't matter as much as people make so much fuss about.
I've done all the DLC dungeons with an Orc DK Healer and Khajiit MagSorc DPS in my group. I've also healed vet content as an Orc Warden Healer.

Remember, we're taking into account what is good for all players - that includes those who care about both race and endgame or high level activities.

If you're truly interested in competitive (talking leaderboards) end game you should really abandon all desire for what you want to play (this goes for all games) because due to balancing there will always be optimal choices of what to play to get the better times.
If you care about race and end game content, then play what build/role is best for you race.

Altmer - Be a MagDD
Argonian - Be a healer or tank
etc.

The only time there is an issue is if you won't play what your race is best suited for. If we're also catering to all players we need to make a lot more changes than just racial passives. I mean what about Warden players who want to be end game?

Like I said in the main post, there are other issues that are more important to attend to, but this issue still matters. I agree, all classes, Wardens included, should be good for endgame (and in the role you find most suitable, if we're doing the play how you want thing TES games promote), just as all races should.

What are you trying to gain though.

As I said there are options for people who want to play the race they like and be competitive.
If you want to play against the meta it's still possible to clear all the content in the game, the only thing you will fall back on is being able to get very top ranks in PvE boards and maybe be at a slight disadvantage in PvP if you did a 1v1 with a player of matching skill using the meta.

Yes these passives make a difference, but they're not the biggest difference.
I'm pretty sure you could give a majority of the player base an Altmer MagSorc, give a top raider a Orc MagSorc and they top raider would still parse higher because they have the practice of rotations.

Until you're consistently hitting DPS parses in the 30k mark or doing 1vX against more than average players your racial choice isn't going to matter.

Silver_Strider

I'm fine with the Speed of Training Passive remaining and the little fluff passives attached. Everything else can die.

I'm honestly tired of the Lore argument because if we're being truthful, a lot of the lore is either being ignored (Between the Silvenar and Spinners, it makes a fairly compelling case that Bosmer have as much ties to magic as either of their Elven Cousins) or has been altered to suit the needs of the game (I still say the DC and EP alliances are total hogwash considering all the bad blood between the races involved in their respective alliances). You could argue that the lore keeps these races interesting but then why don't the Altmer suffer from increased damage from magic abilities? That's lore friendly but has just been shoved off and for what reason? Because it's not fair? And having every useful passive under the sun for a given role is? No, I'd rather they did away with all these racials that grant any form of performance enhancement since they're not fair on the whole. They ignore the lore of some races and others just get to be perfect because Lore. It's a load of crap.

DoobZ69

Aznox wrote: »

DoobZ69 wrote: »

If I see an argonian dps join my group I roll my eyes because the runs will be longer than it has to be. Instead of a 20 min run it could be 30mins. It WILL be complete if everyone is competent enough but isn't optimal and can be annoying. I certainly wouldn't be befriending that guy to run with me in the future based on his performance. All based on his racial choice, go figure.

Let's simplify and say both dps would normally share 100% of the damage or 50% each in your 20min run.

Going from 20 to to 30 min would need the "clueless argonian dps" to do 66,6% less dps.

A reasonable estimate would be a 3% dps loss for your "clueless argonian dps".

That makes the 20min run into ... a 20min and 18,3 seconds run.


But hey, let's hear everyone's opinion about game balance, even those who throw random numbers around to make their point !

Hey I'm glad you agree on the rest of the post! Cheers!
The fact that 1 hypothetical situation simplified example to show a disparity in run time which is let's say 10% of my post makes me 100% clueless about balance actually proves my 3% to 66% 'mistake' as plausible, thanks!

And I would also like to thank you for acknowledging a 3% lack of dps for the argonian. Now that you agree some racial passives put players at a disadvantage you will contribute to the topic constructively, no?

By the way I dispute that 3% is a flat 3% increase in run time. The enemies die slower, other dps has to work harder, tank takes more hits, healer heals for longer, resource regen comes into effect, the chances of making a mistake increase, potential problems or deaths rise, people start arguing and [snip], stop cooperating as well as they could. Add all that and you MAY have a run which is increased by 10 mins. Did I say it will go from 2 hours to 3? No, because its not percentage based. So why are you percentaging it?

Anyway, glad we can start working together on fixing a game-wide problem. Please continue to contribute :-)

[Edited to remove profanity]

aeowulf

Other - put a racial polymoprh in the store, then you can choose your racial passives, and polymoprh into the look of the one you want.

For a crown cost, obviously.

Aznox

@DoobZ69 I don't even bother to correct 1 line posts anymore, your post was (and still is) a good read until that point, hence the disappointment and my reaction

By the way I dispute that 3% is a flat 3% increase in run time.

You are right it is not, my calculation is closer to 1,5% increase in run time. (because there are ... 2 dps in the group) but yes i got what you meant, lets continue :

The enemies die slower, other dps has to work harder, tank takes more hits, healer heals for longer, resource regen comes into effect, the chances of making a mistake increase, potential problems or deaths rise

This is true, but look at the overall Argonian passives (among which 205 stamina, magicka and health regen equivalent from the potion proc), i could have argued that a mistep from this players could have less consequences, maybe even saving a death or run time. I won't argue with you on this however because there are too many variables to consider.

, people start arguing and [snip], stop cooperating as well as they could.

Your semi-rant about a foolish player bringing an argonian dps to a vet dungeon, made me think that maybe that would be your style in this situation. Just tell me that is not the case and we are all good

[Edited for quote]