Wood Elf/ Bosmer losing stealth passive, An open letter.
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BlueRaven✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭@TelvanniWizard You noticed! I thought it was too subtle.
Sorry I could not get back to it yesterday. There was an emergency at work.
Here is the latest version.
Changes from previous version;
• Added suggestions from @Cundu_Ertur
• Changed font sizes slightly for better readability.
• Added Lore Destruction description on the bottom.
I went through it (quickly) to check for spelling etc, let me know if I missed anything. I am open to any changes, but I am trying to keep it in the style of the source material so nothing too long.7 -
MartiniDaniels✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭^
"Redguards aren't best swordsmen"
I mean through all games we heard that Redguards have exceptional melee martial skill, notably higher then other races, but now they are clearly behind Orcs and Dunmers which is strange imo.
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JobooAGS✭✭✭✭✭
✭MartiniDaniels wrote: »^
"Redguards aren't best swordsmen"
I mean through all games we heard that Redguards have exceptional melee martial skill, notably higher then other races, but now they are clearly behind Orcs and Dunmers which is strange imo.
Redguards are best with weapons in general, with a huge emphesis on swords0 -
MartiniDaniels✭✭✭✭✭
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Redguards are best with weapons in general, with a huge emphesis on swords
Yes, best with melee bladed weapons like swords, scimitars, axes. But not with bows and magic staves.0 -
JobooAGS✭✭✭✭✭
✭MartiniDaniels wrote: »
Yes, best with melee bladed weapons like swords, scimitars, axes. But not with bows and magic staves.
https://elderscrolls.fandom.com/wiki/Redguard_(Arena)
https://elderscrolls.fandom.com/wiki/Redguard_(Daggerfall)
https://elderscrolls.fandom.com/wiki/Redguard_(Morrowind)
https://elderscrolls.fandom.com/wiki/Redguard_(Oblivion)
https://elderscrolls.fandom.com/wiki/Redguard_(Skyrim)
All of these state at the very least more proficient with weapons if not the best at them and did not exclude bows/staves. They also suggest an emphasis on swords/blades. Not to mention the lack of poison resistance in which the main article states
https://elderscrolls.fandom.com/wiki/Redguard
Edit: If combat were a grading scale, Redguards would score straight As at all weapons with a big A+ on swords. I can agree that they will score lower with magic due to their weariness of magic in general. Bosmers would easily get top grades with an A+ at bows, Altmer with staves and so on.Edited by JobooAGS on June 14, 2019 3:48PM0 -
BlueRaven✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭And Redguards have curved swords.
Curved. Swords.
(Carry on, I really don’t have anything to add to the conversation other than a meme. 🙂)5 -
Koronach✭✭✭✭✭TelvanniWizard wrote: »
Never thought I would ever agree with a Telvanni, but I agree that is awesome ^.=.^5 -
thegreatme✭✭✭✭✭Oh are we coming up with lore trees to compliment Bos' completely lore-friendly changes? How about vegan vampires? They're not allowed in Valenwood obviously, but then again who's going to stop them since we're not stealthy enough to catch them in the act anyway Edited by thegreatme on June 15, 2019 7:14AMThank You ZoS!:
◙ Blackfeather Court banker/merchant
◙ Gloam Indrik
◙ Re-release Gloam Wolf Mount
◙ Evergloam house
Let's See It Happen ZoS:
◙ /honorloop emote
◙ cross-legged sitting emote
◙ Hagraven Polymorph
◙ Hagraven Houseguest3 -
Cundu_Ertur✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Looks good, Raven.Taking stealth away from the Bosmer is like taking magic away from the Altmer, making Nords allergic to mead, or making Orcs pretty.2 -
Jordan.nick11b14_ESO✭✭✭✭Signed. Wood elves (which I loathe) should def. keep their stealth passive. Please don't turn this game into a version of FF14...they have a well earned reputation for nerfing jobs and homogenizing everything. Please keep the races different...7 -
wedgebert✭✭✭✭✭Jordan.nick11b14_ESO wrote: »Signed. Wood elves (which I loathe) should def. keep their stealth passive. Please don't turn this game into a version of FF14...they have a well earned reputation for nerfing jobs and homogenizing everything. Please keep the races different...
Unfortunately keeping races "different" is part of what got us into this mess. Rather than let Bosmer and Khajiit both be stealthy, in the name of "making races different" they decided that Bosmer should lose stealth and instead become super bland races with no actual flavor outside of "they think they're cats that can gracefully land after a fall" and "think they're Jackie Chan from Drunker Master except without any actual improved martial skills"8 -
Cundu_Ertur✭✭✭✭✭
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Unfortunately keeping races "different" is part of what got us into this mess. Rather than let Bosmer and Khajiit both be stealthy, in the name of "making races different" they decided that Bosmer should lose stealth and instead become super bland races with no actual flavor outside of "they think they're cats that can gracefully land after a fall" and "think they're Jackie Chan from Drunker Master except without any actual improved martial skills"
I think part of the problem, too, is that sneaking was regarded as a bit of fluffy RP garbage that is completely unimportant in the grand scheme of things, instead of being regarded (as it should be) as the single most important resource for the Thief archetype playstyle.
edit to add: I think the current batch of devs also failed to appreciate how important the Thief archetype is to the Bosmer, and I suspect they thought that only the Khajiit were ever the thieves; and that of the original Bosmer passives half of them were shared with other races because the original dev team didn't know what they were doing. I bet the devs thought they were doing Bosmer a favor. In some ways they did, but removing all vestiges of stealth gameplay from Bosmer was NOT appropriate and, in my opinion, negates most of the benefitial changes that were made.Edited by Cundu_Ertur on June 16, 2019 5:43PMTaking stealth away from the Bosmer is like taking magic away from the Altmer, making Nords allergic to mead, or making Orcs pretty.9 -
OsManiaC✭✭✭✭wish someone reached them at E3. 77 pages and no effectGM of The Argonian Kebab, The Argonian Steak & The Argonian BBQ - PC - EU (The Tamriel Kitchen) @OsManiaC
Don't worry, the tail grows back!
if it breathes we eats. #justbosmerthings - we can detect stealth boy NPCs and hunt them thanks to our skill!
https://steamcommunity.com/id/osmaniac4 -
OsManiaC✭✭✭✭
Same I was hoping someone could of talked to them about these lore issues. Also your sig........;;>.=.>
Same as all people here, I try to keep our kin alive and stick to its origins.GM of The Argonian Kebab, The Argonian Steak & The Argonian BBQ - PC - EU (The Tamriel Kitchen) @OsManiaC
Don't worry, the tail grows back!
if it breathes we eats. #justbosmerthings - we can detect stealth boy NPCs and hunt them thanks to our skill!
https://steamcommunity.com/id/osmaniac6 -
Koronach✭✭✭✭✭
Same as all people here, I try to keep our kin alive and stick to its origins.
Well I'm trying to help so you won't eat me right? (Edits in) ;^.=.^ maybe I should go stand over there.Edited by Koronach on June 16, 2019 11:35PM4 -
Animal_Mother✭✭✭✭I'm getting tired of roll dodging... every three button pushes... while a magplar...
How is this even a passive if I have to actively think about doing it?11 -
Jaraal✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Animal_Mother wrote: »I'm getting tired of roll dodging... every three button pushes... while a magplar...
How is this even a passive if I have to actively think about doing it?
And you're not doing any damage while you're rolling down the street, either. Just burning stamina you could be using for actual DPS. Unless of course you're using a weak build and need the extra penetration, I suppose. But it's wasted overpenetration in many cases.8 -
HowTaoBrownCow✭✭✭I literally didn't realize that the Bosmer had lost their sneak bonus until I ran into this thread. Stuff is changing all the time in the game and I usually just ignore it -- it hurts the people who optimize their build for whatever the current setup is, but after the first few big changes I just gave up on optimizing and settled for role-playing. I put points into the passives, and I generally ignore the details of whatever actual benefits they give me, outside of the broad strokes of magicka for elves and bretons, stamina for redguards and khajiit and wood elves, and so forth.
But also, I didn't realize it because Bosmer have *always* had the sneak bonus, and that sneak bonus was part of the broad strokes that I associated with them. So, when I saw that the Bosmer racial passives had changed, and I read that the "sneak detection radius" had changed, I just assumed that it was a weirdly worded way of saying that they were harder to detect. There are armor set bonuses that improve your sneak, and they also phrase it in terms of sneak detection radius, so I just assumed that was what was going on.
But I've just recently started playing my one Bosmer character again, and doing the Thieves Guild and DB questlines, and it was striking me that my sneak seemed worse than I was expecting. My main character is Khajiit, and I was expecting them to have similar sneak abilities, as usual, but my Bosmer kept being detected when I thought I should have been fine. It was weird, and it had been nagging at me to try to figure out what was going wrong.
And now I know. ZOS, why would you change a sneak/scout type race into just another stamina DPS? The minor speed buff was a nice touch, and would have paired well with the sneak bonus to create the idea of the woodland ranger, moving swiftly and silently through the forest. But now my tiny Bosmer is basically the same as my redguard, and exactly as sneaky as my giant high elf warrior.
I'll roll with this change as I've rolled with all the others. The change to a detection buff is absolutely useless to me, and when I get detected I'll just kill everyone around me like any stamina DPS would do. But it definitely takes some of the fun out of this character for me.Censored15 -
Ratzkifal✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Animal_Mother wrote: »I'm getting tired of roll dodging... every three button pushes... while a magplar...
How is this even a passive if I have to actively think about doing it?
There is generally nothing wrong with passives like that, but then they need to make a difference to your overall playstyle. You can't exactly do that on a Bosmer in PvE because it hurts your only other strength which is sustain. You have two conflicting passives there and that's bad design. Your sustain is supposed to make up for the lack of damage and your damage boost can't fill gap created by losing that sustain.
If we only look at the movement speed, then it's alright, because it boosts you at the moment you need it, the way you need it.
But otherwise if you design a conditional passive, that condition must either be rewarding something you are already doing anyway (think of direct attack or blocking procs) or give you such a large boost that it's rewarding going out of your way (think of Essence Thief). You should also make sure that the buff and condition somehow align in purpose. For example getting a lot of selfhealing is pointless if the conditional is healing someone else who is low.
The current form of Hunter's Eye rewards you the most if you are in a sticky situation and makes you choose "fight or flight". It does the "flight" part decently, but the "fight" part is lacking because 1500 just doesn't make much of a difference. It looks more like it's supposed to be a table-turner as it tries to reward good defense with a boost to offense, but it performs poorly on that front.
If you are losing already, +1500 penetration won't make you win. Unless you dodged an important skill from the enemy, but you don't need Hunter's Eye for that.
And if you dodgeroll while winning already, then you either just gave up your window of opportunity with an unnecessary dodgeroll or you have something else like Eternal Hunt working to your advantage, which most of the time means you would have won even without the 1500 penetration because the fight just wasn't even close in the first place.
And all of this doesn't even take into account that it doesn't work like that in PvE at all and there it pretty much misses the purpose it's meant to have entirely.This Bosmer was tortured to death. There is nothing left to be done.10 -
anadandy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭HowTaoBrownCow wrote: »And now I know. ZOS, why would you change a sneak/scout type race into just another stamina DPS? The minor speed buff was a nice touch, and would have paired well with the sneak bonus to create the idea of the woodland ranger, moving swiftly and silently through the forest. But now my tiny Bosmer is basically the same as my redguard, and exactly as sneaky as my giant high elf warrior.
(emphasis mine) This is perfectly stated, in an effort to make the racials "distinctive" they turned Bosmer into just a bland stamina race.Edited by anadandy on June 17, 2019 4:51PM10 -
Vlad9425✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I don't get it. They've clearly seen there's an overwhelmingly negative response to the changes to the Bosmer passive but they do nothing? Why not just revert the change and then you no longer have to deal with this discussion.14 -
Koronach✭✭✭✭✭I don't get it. They've clearly seen there's an overwhelmingly negative response to the changes to the Bosmer passive but they do nothing? Why not just revert the change and then you no longer have to deal with this discussion.
I want to know what the point of the loremaster is. I thought one of his jobs was to make sure the lore was correct. I also love the fact he claims he really likes Argonians and their lore yet our passives don't match the lore. So what is his job exactly? This whole one passive per race just doesn't work. People want a new race how will that work without sharing passives?Edited by Koronach on June 17, 2019 5:28PM6 -
Cundu_Ertur✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I don't get it. They've clearly seen there's an overwhelmingly negative response to the changes to the Bosmer passive but they do nothing? Why not just revert the change and then you no longer have to deal with this discussion.
And this feedback started the same day that the changes were announced. It was initially questioned because the wording is so confusing, because the description of the detection bonus is worded almost exactly like the hiding bonus. When the intent was clarified in a later update the *** matter struck the rotating airflow impellor.Edited by Cundu_Ertur on June 17, 2019 5:49PMTaking stealth away from the Bosmer is like taking magic away from the Altmer, making Nords allergic to mead, or making Orcs pretty.6 -
BlueRaven✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I don't get it. They've clearly seen there's an overwhelmingly negative response to the changes to the Bosmer passive but they do nothing? Why not just revert the change and then you no longer have to deal with this discussion.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/456997/class-reps-update-meeting-notes-jan-30-2019/p1
"Bosmer: ZOS has heard concerns about the stackable powerful movement speed. Bosmers will still get a speed boost off dodge, it just wont be as high. Bosmers will get some short damage bonus as compensation. Note: Reps specifically asked about the community’s concern that bosmers are trading stealth for different buffs. We were told that ZOS saw these concerns and would work on creating more options/systems for stealth gameplay outside of race. With these additions, stealth gameplay will open up to more players, and also allow bosmers to have the nice combat buff will still having avenues to be as stealthy as before." (Emphasis mine.)
This was from a January Class Reps meeting. They knew people were already complaining about it, yet they went on with it anyway. Make of that what you will.Edited by BlueRaven on June 17, 2019 6:03PM9 -
Jaraal✭✭✭✭✭
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https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/456997/class-reps-update-meeting-notes-jan-30-2019/p1
"Bosmer: ZOS has heard concerns about the stackable powerful movement speed. Bosmers will still get a speed boost off dodge, it just wont be as high. Bosmers will get some short damage bonus as compensation. Note: Reps specifically asked about the community’s concern that bosmers are trading stealth for different buffs. We were told that ZOS saw these concerns and would work on creating more options/systems for stealth gameplay outside of race. With these additions, stealth gameplay will open up to more players, and also allow bosmers to have the nice combat buff will still having avenues to be as stealthy as before." (Emphasis mine.)
This was from a January Class Reps meeting. They knew people were already complaining about it, yet they went on with it anyway. Make of that what you will.
And opening up stealth to all races still makes Bosmer tied for last place and less stealthy than two other races.
Lore is still corrupted, in-game quest dialogues still don't make sense, and it's basically a verification that they nerfed Bosmer to make Khajiit more attractive to those who embrace the stealth playstyle.7 -
anadandy✭✭✭✭✭
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https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/456997/class-reps-update-meeting-notes-jan-30-2019/p1
"Bosmer: ZOS has heard concerns about the stackable powerful movement speed. Bosmers will still get a speed boost off dodge, it just wont be as high. Bosmers will get some short damage bonus as compensation. Note: Reps specifically asked about the community’s concern that bosmers are trading stealth for different buffs. We were told that ZOS saw these concerns and would work on creating more options/systems for stealth gameplay outside of race. With these additions, stealth gameplay will open up to more players, and also allow bosmers to have the nice combat buff will still having avenues to be as stealthy as before." (Emphasis mine.)
This was from a January Class Reps meeting. They knew people were already complaining about it, yet they went on with it anyway. Make of that what you will.
And so far the only option/system for stealth game play created was the new Vesture of Darloc Brae set. The 4 piece bonus is essentially the old Bosmer stealth radius.4 -
Cundu_Ertur✭✭✭✭✭
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And opening up stealth to all races still makes Bosmer tied for last place and less stealthy than two other races.
Lore is still corrupted, in-game quest dialogues still don't make sense, and it's basically a verification that they nerfed Bosmer to make Khajiit more attractive to those who embrace the stealth playstyle.
Exactly. Orcs are traditionally the least stealthy race in lore and in all iterations of TES games, and currently Bosmer are exactly as stealthy as Orcs. And that's garbage.Edited by Cundu_Ertur on June 17, 2019 6:58PMTaking stealth away from the Bosmer is like taking magic away from the Altmer, making Nords allergic to mead, or making Orcs pretty.4
This discussion has been closed.