Wood Elf/ Bosmer losing stealth passive, An open letter.

Kalle_Demos

BlueRaven wrote: »

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Jaraal wrote: »

Koronach wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Anyone here going to E3 and wants to represent our cause while the others are being nails on a chalkboard?

I wish so I could tell them face to face how fail the changes were for both of our races. I would love to ask them how they could just ignore such epic lore fails. I don't understand how the damn loremaster can be ok with this.

Someone here said they asked a dev face to face at a conference about the issue, but they were so politely dismissive that nothing was actually discussed.

I think very few would be argumentative in a one on one meeting. It's much easier to be outspoken in written media than in personal interaction.

Hi! That was me;

So you don't have to scroll back to March here is the two pertinent posts I made.

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BlueRaven wrote: »

Ok I got to talk with someone after the show, they are aware of the thread. And they are working on something. Timetable unknown, I am guessing NOT in Elsweyr.

Overall I had a pretty good day! I am leaving much happier then when I came in.

And...

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BlueRaven wrote: »

Ok let me tell you what was said and how it went down.

While leaving, I bumped into the guy who is in charge of combat and pvp(?) he was on stage during the presentation.

(As a side note, earlier I also had a nice short conversation with the guy in charge of dungeons except I did not recognize him as the guy in charge of dungeons. We had a nice conversation about... Dungeons.)

Anyway, so after some pleasentries I said;
“Ok, I have to ask, Bosmer and stealth.” Just like that.

And he said he knew about the controversy and hinted at this thread. They want to open stealth gameplay to all and they are planning on a dedicated stealth skill line but it’s all very early. He was extremely nice about it and it did not feel like he was trying to push me off with a maybe. We had a short discussion about what the tree might look like and that was it.

I left the conversation very pleased.

Keep in mind that if/when they do implement the tree, bosmers and kahjits May loose anything that says stealth from their passives (this is my supposition not his). Which will even out the stealth issues. I know bosmers won’t be best in stealth, but in Skyrim (eventually) all races can be equally good in stealth and I ok with that.

At least it will be better then what we have currently.

Ok back to driving.

I still stand by this.
It did not feel like a push off or they were dismissive, it felt ernest. And at the time it seemed like the earliest this "Stealth open to all" thing would be on the next major update after Elsweyr. Which is why I am very interested in what happens this Sunday, I hope there will be some new indication of what he was talking about.

I am really crossing my fingers that we will get an indication of what he meant soon.

This is just so upsetting on so many levels. They butchered the Bosmer's identity in opposition to everything they set out to do with the racial balance but left Khajiit with stealth bonuses and even gave a boost to Imperials. Why? And were Bosmer players just expected to twiddle their toes in the meantime? For months? This could not have been handled in a worse way and it's infuriating how easily this all could have been avoided or even mitigated.

Players, including myself have quit the game over this and there are many Bosmer players who don't read the forums and are completely in the dark. The devs are aware of this thread, the valid criticisms and not one of them have decided to join in the dialog or address our concerns in any meaningful way. How is that BeTtEr cOmMuNicaTIoN coming along @ZOS_GinaBruno? As you said yourself:

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hi everyone. First of all, you aren't wrong. We agree we haven't been communicating as much as we should on this matter (among others) and for that, we apologize. There really is no excuse.

Alaya

Jaraal wrote: »

And giving everybody stealth still doesn’t fix the myriad of broken quest dialogues that talk about Bosmer being the masters of stealth, or of Argonian’s natural immunity to poisons, etc.

These things were not unbalanced in ESO for almost five years. Nothing would be hurt by restoring them, minus the 10% damage bonus. And if they still refuse to address it, then it only serves to reinforce the theory that they nerfed Bosmer to make Khajiit more attractive as the only real option for stealth, in order to break down the widespread resistance to playing non humanoid characters and sell more copies of Elsweyr.

Given that it's intended that with all of the proper bonuses and with Khajiit's racial passives they can just go crazy on any stealth content, I'd say that it's spot on that they fully intended people to switch over to Khajiit for Elsweyr.

I doubt they'll address this anytime soon, there'll probably be another "racial balance" in like two years from now, and they'll wreck it even more so that people won't be playing as Bosmer anymore.

Ratzkifal

Alaya wrote: »

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Jaraal wrote: »

And giving everybody stealth still doesn’t fix the myriad of broken quest dialogues that talk about Bosmer being the masters of stealth, or of Argonian’s natural immunity to poisons, etc.

These things were not unbalanced in ESO for almost five years. Nothing would be hurt by restoring them, minus the 10% damage bonus. And if they still refuse to address it, then it only serves to reinforce the theory that they nerfed Bosmer to make Khajiit more attractive as the only real option for stealth, in order to break down the widespread resistance to playing non humanoid characters and sell more copies of Elsweyr.

Given that it's intended that with all of the proper bonuses and with Khajiit's racial passives they can just go crazy on any stealth content, I'd say that it's spot on that they fully intended people to switch over to Khajiit for Elsweyr.

I doubt they'll address this anytime soon, there'll probably be another "racial balance" in like two years from now, and they'll wreck it even more so that people won't be playing as Bosmer anymore.

Who knows...
I still don't see the incentive for ZOS behind it. Especially when they are giving out race and name change tokens. I just hope we learn some more about potential upcoming stealth systems in BE3.
This change has been handled as badly as the proposed Sorc shield change - "change it for the worse now to make sense later at no ETA". I am doubtful that this new system would fix any of our problems but at least it could shift focus and highlight our concerns more once the debate around it starts.

Cundu_Ertur

Dunno if it's been posted before, but things like this just anger me.

Jaraal

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Dunno if it's been posted before, but things like this just anger me.

Must have been because as a Bosmer, she was able to detect the hidden Houndsmen as they approached, before anyone else could.












Oh, wait. NPCs "cant be bothered to hide"........ nevermind.

Ratzkifal

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Dunno if it's been posted before, but things like this just anger me.

Sometimes I think these things are meant to appease us and tell us "See? Bosmer are stealthy. Just close your eyes and pretend. That's what roleplaying is about after all!"

Jaraal

Incidentally, for the new folks, or those who don't know what the fuss is all about, here's the developer's quote about why 20 years of Bosmer lore was unceremoniously dumped for a minor PvP tweak:

Previously if you weren’t able to utilize Stealth, you lost a large portion of effectiveness that Wood Elves provided, so we’ve put the bulk of their power into their flat bonuses to Stamina and recovery. We also wanted to have more of a distinct play pattern on how Wood Elves and Khajiit both engaged with Stealth, so we’ve repurposed Wood Elves’ passive into one that deals with turning their proficiency of Stealth into a proficiency of hunting Stealthed targets. Additionally, since Stealth is not always engaged with at the same rate across the game, we added a small boon to when you activate Roll Dodge to help enhance mobility and offensive turning power in order to slip to safety or reposition for an unexpected attack.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/5851010/#Comment_5851010


Of course, there are no "Stealthed targets" to hunt anywhere outside of PvP. But they gave us PvEers a "small boon" where, as now worthless thieves, we can burn our sprint stamina by roll dodging instead of actually sprinting, so in actuality we are even more likely to be caught by guards than before.


Disgusting.

anadandy

We also wanted to have more of a distinct play pattern on how Wood Elves and Khajiit both engaged with Stealth, so we’ve repurposed Wood Elves’ passive into one that deals with turning their proficiency of Stealth into a proficiency of hunting Stealthed targets. a bunch of crap.

Fixed it for them.

And I had such a laugh at that "Since Stealth is not always engaged with at the same rate across the game" nonsense - that's the closest they ever got to admitting detection was useless in PvE.

Spacefish2323

For something on the internet this is remarkably well argued and based on demonstrable observations. Didn't realize this was an issue for some players as I don't play Bosmer, but seeing it now, signed. Revert please.

Jaraal

anadandy wrote: »

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We also wanted to have more of a distinct play pattern on how Wood Elves and Khajiit both engaged with Stealth, so we’ve repurposed Wood Elves’ passive into one that deals with turning their proficiency of Stealth into a proficiency of hunting Stealthed targets. a bunch of crap.

- that's the closest they ever got to admitting detection was useless in PvE.

Actually, it's not. A Community Manager actually posted that "NPCs can't be bothered to hide," in response to criticism of the new passive. I tried to find that quote, but but apparently that's been redacted, too.

Sylvermynx

Jaraal wrote: »

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anadandy wrote: »

We also wanted to have more of a distinct play pattern on how Wood Elves and Khajiit both engaged with Stealth, so we’ve repurposed Wood Elves’ passive into one that deals with turning their proficiency of Stealth into a proficiency of hunting Stealthed targets. a bunch of crap.

- that's the closest they ever got to admitting detection was useless in PvE.

Actually, it's not. A Community Manager actually posted that "NPCs can't be bothered to hide," in response to criticism of the new passive. I tried to find that quote, but apparently that's been redacted, too.

No surprise....

BlueRaven

Is this the quote you are looking for?

A quick note on why we changed the Stealthy passive: Previously this passive was shared between Khajiit and Wood Elf, and didn’t help them feel distinct enough from each other. Additionally, since Sneaking isn’t a universal mechanic to the game (many enemies in Tamriel can’t be bothered sneaking about!), we wanted to take away some of the focus from the passive and build that into their other passives instead. We still want to support that game mechanic however, so we kept parts of each the Wood Elf’s and the Khajiit’s version of these passives. (Emphasis mine.)

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/453551/upcoming-racial-balance-changes-for-update-21/p1

Jaraal

And here's a quote from the same patch notes regarding the new Khajiit passives:

The Khajiit racial bonuses were the most under budget in terms of our stat density system, and as such, we wanted to make improvements on what they offered without making them the absolute best at one thing.

So, Khajiit are not the absolute best at Stealth now? They are the only race left with a stealth detection radius reduction. Even more evidence that PvE wasn't even considered in these changes. I invite any developer to log into my account and try stealing with my max Justice passives Khajiit thief, and then try it with my max Justice passives Bosmer, and let me know how that works out for you.

Jaraal

BlueRaven wrote: »

Is this the quote you are looking for?

Thank you, I was in error. I made an assumption and apologize for throwing shade where it doesn't belong.

BlueRaven

Jaraal wrote: »

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BlueRaven wrote: »

Is this the quote you are looking for?

Thank you, I was in error.

No worries from me!

Celas_Dranacea

Hi all,

I am a diehard Bosmer and this change dissapointed me. I hope they continue to think about how they can improve on the Bosmer identity as sneaky / agile race in future iterations.

However, I am Bosmer in my SOUL. No amount of passive changes will impact how I am a sneaky ass ***.

But can the devs please not touch, or even buff, our fall damage mitigation? We are quite light and good for tumbling. 15% sounds better. Thanks

Alaya

Celas_Dranacea wrote: »

Hi all,

I am a diehard Bosmer and this change dissapointed me. I hope they continue to think about how they can improve on the Bosmer identity as sneaky / agile race in future iterations.

However, I am Bosmer in my SOUL. No amount of passive changes will impact how I am a sneaky ass ***.

But can the devs please not touch, or even buff, our fall damage mitigation? We are quite light and good for tumbling. 15% sounds better. Thanks

All of this applies to me. I haven't given up on my Bosmer characters or crew. I still hold hope that they'll fix it and give us a better passive that isn't completely useless. And I've even had someone who MAINS A BOSMER tell me that the passives are AWESOME. That they don't need fixing. They primarily play PvP anyhow.

Give us back our stealth and add an ability that makes us just as competitive as the other races for different roles, because as it stands, Bosmer is hardly picked for anything.

anadandy

Jaraal wrote: »

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anadandy wrote: »

We also wanted to have more of a distinct play pattern on how Wood Elves and Khajiit both engaged with Stealth, so we’ve repurposed Wood Elves’ passive into one that deals with turning their proficiency of Stealth into a proficiency of hunting Stealthed targets. a bunch of crap.

- that's the closest they ever got to admitting detection was useless in PvE.

Actually, it's not. A Community Manager actually posted that "NPCs can't be bothered to hide," in response to criticism of the new passive. I tried to find that quote, but but apparently that's been redacted, too.

Right, that original quote was from the Devs initial post about the racial passive changes. And when Bosmer players pointed out how ridiculous stealth detection was in light of that remark- that's when they doubled down. The lame "stealth is not always engaged equally" bit came out in response tonthe months of feedback. Because heaven forbid they admit being wrong.

Ratzkifal

Alaya wrote: »

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Celas_Dranacea wrote: »

Hi all,

I am a diehard Bosmer and this change dissapointed me. I hope they continue to think about how they can improve on the Bosmer identity as sneaky / agile race in future iterations.

However, I am Bosmer in my SOUL. No amount of passive changes will impact how I am a sneaky ass ***.

But can the devs please not touch, or even buff, our fall damage mitigation? We are quite light and good for tumbling. 15% sounds better. Thanks

All of this applies to me. I haven't given up on my Bosmer characters or crew. I still hold hope that they'll fix it and give us a better passive that isn't completely useless. And I've even had someone who MAINS A BOSMER tell me that the passives are AWESOME. That they don't need fixing. They primarily play PvP anyhow.

Give us back our stealth and add an ability that makes us just as competitive as the other races for different roles, because as it stands, Bosmer is hardly picked for anything.

That person was surely not talking about the detection when they said "awesome". And if they did, then they didn't do any testing on it. The more you are looking into that passive, the worse it sounds.

Jaraal

Alaya wrote: »

All of this applies to me. I haven't given up on my Bosmer characters or crew. I still hold hope that they'll fix it and give us a better passive that isn't completely useless. And I've even had someone who MAINS A BOSMER tell me that the passives are AWESOME. That they don't need fixing. They primarily play PvP anyhow.

The other two Bosmer passives are useful and well designed. And almost all of us would be fine with Hunter's Eye, if they just replaced the niche and questionably effective ability to detect stealth in PvP with the ability to be as stealthy as we once were (and as the whole world knows us) in PvE. Or give us both, if the issue is taking something away from the PvP folks. I still use the Evil Hunter skill on my bar in Cyrodill to find hidden enemies, because the Stealth Detection passive does nothing for me there.

Cundu_Ertur

Alaya wrote: »

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Celas_Dranacea wrote: »

Hi all,

I am a diehard Bosmer and this change dissapointed me. I hope they continue to think about how they can improve on the Bosmer identity as sneaky / agile race in future iterations.

However, I am Bosmer in my SOUL. No amount of passive changes will impact how I am a sneaky ass ***.

But can the devs please not touch, or even buff, our fall damage mitigation? We are quite light and good for tumbling. 15% sounds better. Thanks

All of this applies to me. I haven't given up on my Bosmer characters or crew. I still hold hope that they'll fix it and give us a better passive that isn't completely useless. And I've even had someone who MAINS A BOSMER tell me that the passives are AWESOME. That they don't need fixing. They primarily play PvP anyhow.

Give us back our stealth and add an ability that makes us just as competitive as the other races for different roles, because as it stands, Bosmer is hardly picked for anything.

I go through several Kübler-Ross stages, sometime simultaneously. Denial: I refuse to accept that my gameplay has changed. I wear enough gear to get 2m of stealth (either Night Terror or Night Mother's embrace), and just play like I did before. I get caught more often. This means I am frequently angry. I come to the forums to bargain. Sometimes I get a bit down, but it cycles right back to anger.

The stage that will NEVER be reached is acceptance. Because this change is fundamentally stupid. It is a stupid change done in stupid ways for stupid reasons, and I will never accept it. Bosmer have ALWAYS been Thieves. They have never not been Thieves. Until now. For no good reason, they are now guards. And that is stupid.

Kalle_Demos

Jaraal wrote: »

Incidentally, for the new folks, or those who don't know what the fuss is all about, here's the developer's quote about why 20 years of Bosmer lore was unceremoniously dumped for a minor PvP tweak:

show previous quotes

Previously if you weren’t able to utilize Stealth, you lost a large portion of effectiveness that Wood Elves provided, so we’ve put the bulk of their power into their flat bonuses to Stamina and recovery. We also wanted to have more of a distinct play pattern on how Wood Elves and Khajiit both engaged with Stealth, so we’ve repurposed Wood Elves’ passive into one that deals with turning their proficiency of Stealth into a proficiency of hunting Stealthed targets. Additionally, since Stealth is not always engaged with at the same rate across the game, we added a small boon to when you activate Roll Dodge to help enhance mobility and offensive turning power in order to slip to safety or reposition for an unexpected attack.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/5851010/#Comment_5851010


Of course, there are no "Stealthed targets" to hunt anywhere outside of PvP. But they gave us PvEers a "small boon" where, as now worthless thieves, we can burn our sprint stamina by roll dodging instead of actually sprinting, so in actuality we are even more likely to be caught by guards than before.


Disgusting.

To add on to this: The goals layed out in regards to racial balance included Lore Accuracy, universal applicability, diversity and retaining the races unique feeling. On every one of these points the EXACT OPPOSITE was accomplished with Bosmer and I would argue a few others.

MacCait

I had just come back to the game, and was not happy that my Wood Elf nightblade lost this passive, a defining point to the Wood Elf. While I think other races were pretty well balanced, this felt like an unnecessary nerf

Starlight_Knight

i'm also annoyed at this change, for those of us who don't like playing beast races the wood elf was an attractive option, now it makes no difference if i'm a 9ft tall Nord or a 4ft tall Wood elf.

One has to hope that this change was just to encourage players to make Khajiit for the update.

Jaraal

Starlight_Knight wrote: »

One has to hope that this change was just to encourage players to make Khajiit for the update.

Agreed. I'm afraid we've been sold out for coin.

Left4Daud

Sober nords
Tuskless orcs
Weak to magic Bretons
Short altmer etc

Make just as much sense as our

Stealth free Bosmer.

Too bad everyone BUT the people balancing the racials can see that.

Tigerseye

Starlight_Knight wrote: »

i'm also annoyed at this change, for those of us who don't like playing beast races the wood elf was an attractive option, now it makes no difference if i'm a 9ft tall Nord or a 4ft tall Wood elf.

One has to hope that this change was just to encourage players to make Khajiit for the update.

I don't like being forced to do things.

I tend to just wander off, eventually, if people try.

Ectheliontnacil

Wow this thread is huge! At this point ZOS is almost forced to do something with Bosmer racials.

BlueRaven

Ectheliontnacil wrote: »

Wow this thread is huge! At this point ZOS is almost forced to do something with Bosmer racials.

You would think so...

MartiniDaniels

Ectheliontnacil wrote: »

Wow this thread is huge! At this point ZOS is almost forced to do something with Bosmer racials.

I guess it may work another way because:

Tigerseye wrote: »

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Starlight_Knight wrote: »

i'm also annoyed at this change, for those of us who don't like playing beast races the wood elf was an attractive option, now it makes no difference if i'm a 9ft tall Nord or a 4ft tall Wood elf.

One has to hope that this change was just to encourage players to make Khajiit for the update.

I don't like being forced to do things.

I tend to just wander off, eventually, if people try.

At this point after all the "re-balances" of last year I don't believe or expect anything good from ZOS. ESO for me is like a country where my toons live and "combat team" is like corrupted government who cares about only their own business (PVP balance).