Wood Elf/ Bosmer losing stealth passive, An open letter.
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MartiniDaniels✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭CatchMeTrolling wrote: »Sylvermynx wrote: »No.... pvp has no value at all to me. So in this last post you state the "value" to be in the speed and pen for pvp. Why didn't you just state that to begin with when I asked you?
It's not at all valuable to me. I haven't ever said it's not valuable to others. In fact, I asked you outright what the "valuable" was. Well, you finally decided to post it. Nope, not valuable to me at all. But for those who pvp I'm sure it is of value. Thought there are various posts herein where even those who pvp are very unimpressed with the passive.
Regardless, you're just here to get this thread locked, so whatever.
“There’s people joking about the uselessness of pen and speed . Yet wood elf is bis for medium armor builds in pvp. I assume most people in this thread are pve players anyways.”
Okay
Overall, majority likes roll-dodge speed which is useful everywhere, understands that penetration is very useful in PVP (I even described Sniker's video in detail with timeline of roll-dodges which led to 90%+ hunter's eye uptime.
We are all against stealth detection. Practice showed that this is barely useful (for me it was working notably with radiant magelight and I was able to dispel nightblades from big distance in PVP without pots.. but slotting magelight for stamina class is too much a sacrifice imo) and that sometimes it is even harmful. I.e. as a bosmer your stealth eye maybe closed because opponent is too far to have any chance to detect you, but due to your increased range enemy will know of your presence earlier because his stealth eye will show risk of detection. Though such scenario is extremely rare, still your passive in that case is harmful, because your enemy gets initiative.3 -
Cundu_Ertur✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭CatchMeTrolling wrote: »Sylvermynx wrote: »CatchMeTrolling wrote: »Sylvermynx wrote: »CatchMeTrolling wrote: »Sylvermynx wrote: »CatchMeTrolling wrote: »CatchMeTrolling wrote: »Points were made, seems my job here is done.
However, the issue is the fact it’s balanced with pve and pvp in mind , making things either pointless, niche or valuable. The real culprit is balance.
What? Hunters eye has no PvE value. You didn't really convince anyone. And you did not provide context for any of your assertions.
But sure, whatever.
making things either pointless, niche or valuable
Well.... for pve, it's pointless. For pvp it's niche. So where do you think it's valuable?
Another example of reading but not comprehending. It doesn’t have to be all three and at the same time it can be all 3 because it depends on how valuable, niche or pointless it is to someone, which clearly varies.
There’s people joking about the uselessness of pen and speed . Yet wood elf is bis for medium armor builds in pvp. I assume most people in this thread are pve players anyways.
Eh, I quoted your post verbatim. I gave my input on two of the three options. You're the one who posited three "points". So, I ask again, where do you think it's "valuable"?
You're just here to try to get this thread closed. Vide your user ID....
No you’re just not comprehending. It’s valuable to whoever think it’s valuable, it’s pointless to whoever think it’s pointless and it’s niche to whoever think it’s niche. Therefore it can be all 3. Why is that hard to understand? The speed passive for example can be pointless to you, valuable to me and niche to someone else.
I'm comprehending just fine. You're here to get this thread closed. You're witch hunting. There is no value at all to the "new" Bosmer passive. In pve it's totally useless (even to me who has never messed with a Bosmer who uses stealth - I don't sneak or thieve or assassinate); in pvp it's not useful enough that people who have used the race in the past are still using it. NO ONE THINKS THIS RACIAL IS VALUABLE.
Jeez. Speaking of not comprehending. How about you go read the whole of the thread?
Oh right. You don't have the time.
You’re not comprehending anything if I’m saying you’re not comprehending. It’s my point you’re trying to understand, remember?. There’s value in the speed and pen passive in pvp. As far as the other portion it’s not valuable to me but I’m sure it’s valuable to someone else. You and others just like to speak for the entire community, as if people have to share the same opinions as you. It’s not valuable because you say so ? Got it lol
If one person is having issues with comprehension, it may be them.
If it's a whole thread of people, then maybe the issue is that you are not communicating effectively.
I personally did not understand that "However, the issue is the fact it’s balanced with pve and pvp in mind , making things either pointless, niche or valuable. The real culprit is balance," was supposed to mean "It’s valuable to whoever think it’s valuable, it’s pointless to whoever think it’s pointless and it’s niche to whoever think it’s niche. Therefore it can be all 3. Why is that hard to understand? The speed passive for example can be pointless to you, valuable to me and niche to someone else."
The phrase "However, the issue is the fact it’s balanced with pve and pvp in mind...," can be read two ways. One: that the current set of all passives IS in perfect balance now for all modes of gameplay, or Two: that the devs made the effort to balance things while considering all modes of gameplay. Neither of these readings have anything to do with subjective values. That's a clarification you added later.
"It’s my point you’re trying to understand, remember?" It's also your point that you are trying to get across.
"As far as the other portion it’s not valuable to me but I’m sure it’s valuable to someone else." Well, hold on now. This is the whole point of the whole thread, and here you confess that you really don't care about the detection bit. As for anyone finding that bit to be useful, I seriously doubt it. We've had people go in Cyrodiil (or PVP at least, since it is completely useless outside of PVP by design) and test it. During the recent event in Cyrodiil, when PVE'ers were flooding into Cyrodiil and crying they were getting PVP'ed in PVP-land one of our regulars, who has the skill, saw an enemy hide in a delve waiting for the boss to spawn. So he tried to use his detection bonus to find that person. It failed. He had to use a magelight or camouflaged hunter or potion or something to actually detect the hidden enemy. I think Ratzkifal also did some testing (it may have been Wedgebert, not sure now) that showed that it was actually a detriment to hiding from a hidden enemy. The enemy would see a half-open detection eye before the Bosmer player would.
Does this mean there is not one person in the whole world who would find that worthwhile? Well, no. People are stupid. No matter how stupid, useless, dangerous, or disgusting something may be there is some idiot, somewhere, who not only likes it but pays extra for it.
Taking stealth away from the Bosmer is like taking magic away from the Altmer, making Nords allergic to mead, or making Orcs pretty.4 -
Cundu_Ertur✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
Ok, you got me. I am reading and failing to comprehend this.CatchMeTrolling wrote: »People have said the same thing about stealth detection being a medium armor passive, yet people still defend it and want the passive.
Are you saying stealth detection is a medium armor passive? Because I look in the medium armor skill tree and don't see it. The only detection passive is the Bosmer one, and it is independent of armor weight. Are you talking about the set bonuses for the Way of Air and Sentry sets? Do people even buy those? I tried selling some Way of Air and got it back in 30 days unsold.
This is true. Somewhere there's an idiot who would pay extra for that. That's true of everything. So?CatchMeTrolling wrote: »I can 100 percent guarantee if zos changes stealth detect from bosmer there will be people that complain.
Taking stealth away from the Bosmer is like taking magic away from the Altmer, making Nords allergic to mead, or making Orcs pretty.3 -
CatchMeTrolling✭✭✭✭✭
✭Cundu_Ertur wrote: »CatchMeTrolling wrote: »Sylvermynx wrote: »CatchMeTrolling wrote: »Sylvermynx wrote: »CatchMeTrolling wrote: »Sylvermynx wrote: »CatchMeTrolling wrote: »CatchMeTrolling wrote: »Points were made, seems my job here is done.
However, the issue is the fact it’s balanced with pve and pvp in mind , making things either pointless, niche or valuable. The real culprit is balance.
What? Hunters eye has no PvE value. You didn't really convince anyone. And you did not provide context for any of your assertions.
But sure, whatever.
making things either pointless, niche or valuable
Well.... for pve, it's pointless. For pvp it's niche. So where do you think it's valuable?
Another example of reading but not comprehending. It doesn’t have to be all three and at the same time it can be all 3 because it depends on how valuable, niche or pointless it is to someone, which clearly varies.
There’s people joking about the uselessness of pen and speed . Yet wood elf is bis for medium armor builds in pvp. I assume most people in this thread are pve players anyways.
Eh, I quoted your post verbatim. I gave my input on two of the three options. You're the one who posited three "points". So, I ask again, where do you think it's "valuable"?
You're just here to try to get this thread closed. Vide your user ID....
No you’re just not comprehending. It’s valuable to whoever think it’s valuable, it’s pointless to whoever think it’s pointless and it’s niche to whoever think it’s niche. Therefore it can be all 3. Why is that hard to understand? The speed passive for example can be pointless to you, valuable to me and niche to someone else.
I'm comprehending just fine. You're here to get this thread closed. You're witch hunting. There is no value at all to the "new" Bosmer passive. In pve it's totally useless (even to me who has never messed with a Bosmer who uses stealth - I don't sneak or thieve or assassinate); in pvp it's not useful enough that people who have used the race in the past are still using it. NO ONE THINKS THIS RACIAL IS VALUABLE.
Jeez. Speaking of not comprehending. How about you go read the whole of the thread?
Oh right. You don't have the time.
You’re not comprehending anything if I’m saying you’re not comprehending. It’s my point you’re trying to understand, remember?. There’s value in the speed and pen passive in pvp. As far as the other portion it’s not valuable to me but I’m sure it’s valuable to someone else. You and others just like to speak for the entire community, as if people have to share the same opinions as you. It’s not valuable because you say so ? Got it lol
If one person is having issues with comprehension, it may be them.
If it's a whole thread of people, then maybe the issue is that you are not communicating effectively.
I personally did not understand that "However, the issue is the fact it’s balanced with pve and pvp in mind , making things either pointless, niche or valuable. The real culprit is balance," was supposed to mean "It’s valuable to whoever think it’s valuable, it’s pointless to whoever think it’s pointless and it’s niche to whoever think it’s niche. Therefore it can be all 3. Why is that hard to understand? The speed passive for example can be pointless to you, valuable to me and niche to someone else."
The phrase "However, the issue is the fact it’s balanced with pve and pvp in mind...," can be read two ways. One: that the current set of all passives IS in perfect balance now for all modes of gameplay, or Two: that the devs made the effort to balance things while considering all modes of gameplay. Neither of these readings have anything to do with subjective values. That's a clarification you added later.
"It’s my point you’re trying to understand, remember?" It's also your point that you are trying to get across.
"As far as the other portion it’s not valuable to me but I’m sure it’s valuable to someone else." Well, hold on now. This is the whole point of the whole thread, and here you confess that you really don't care about the detection bit. As for anyone finding that bit to be useful, I seriously doubt it. We've had people go in Cyrodiil (or PVP at least, since it is completely useless outside of PVP by design) and test it. During the recent event in Cyrodiil, when PVE'ers were flooding into Cyrodiil and crying they were getting PVP'ed in PVP-land one of our regulars, who has the skill, saw an enemy hide in a delve waiting for the boss to spawn. So he tried to use his detection bonus to find that person. It failed. He had to use a magelight or camouflaged hunter or potion or something to actually detect the hidden enemy. I think Ratzkifal also did some testing (it may have been Wedgebert, not sure now) that showed that it was actually a detriment to hiding from a hidden enemy. The enemy would see a half-open detection eye before the Bosmer player would.
Does this mean there is not one person in the whole world who would find that worthwhile? Well, no. People are stupid. No matter how stupid, useless, dangerous, or disgusting something may be there is some idiot, somewhere, who not only likes it but pays extra for it.
Argumentum ad populum?
But sure , I could’ve communicated more effectively, I chose to speak plainly though, which still doesn’t work well with over thinkers.
Anyways it’s probably more people than you think that want the passive. They’re just not talking about it, yet. Me and other people didn’t think there was enough people who cared about faction lock but look how that turned out.
Talking about this - Rank II - Medium Armor Rank 34
Reduces the cost of sneaking by 7% per piece of Medium Armor equipped.
Also reduces the size of your detection area by 5% per piece of Medium Armor equipped.
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Cundu_Ertur✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭CatchMeTrolling wrote: »Cundu_Ertur wrote: »CatchMeTrolling wrote: »Sylvermynx wrote: »CatchMeTrolling wrote: »Sylvermynx wrote: »CatchMeTrolling wrote: »Sylvermynx wrote: »CatchMeTrolling wrote: »CatchMeTrolling wrote: »Points were made, seems my job here is done.
However, the issue is the fact it’s balanced with pve and pvp in mind , making things either pointless, niche or valuable. The real culprit is balance.
What? Hunters eye has no PvE value. You didn't really convince anyone. And you did not provide context for any of your assertions.
But sure, whatever.
making things either pointless, niche or valuable
Well.... for pve, it's pointless. For pvp it's niche. So where do you think it's valuable?
Another example of reading but not comprehending. It doesn’t have to be all three and at the same time it can be all 3 because it depends on how valuable, niche or pointless it is to someone, which clearly varies.
There’s people joking about the uselessness of pen and speed . Yet wood elf is bis for medium armor builds in pvp. I assume most people in this thread are pve players anyways.
Eh, I quoted your post verbatim. I gave my input on two of the three options. You're the one who posited three "points". So, I ask again, where do you think it's "valuable"?
You're just here to try to get this thread closed. Vide your user ID....
No you’re just not comprehending. It’s valuable to whoever think it’s valuable, it’s pointless to whoever think it’s pointless and it’s niche to whoever think it’s niche. Therefore it can be all 3. Why is that hard to understand? The speed passive for example can be pointless to you, valuable to me and niche to someone else.
I'm comprehending just fine. You're here to get this thread closed. You're witch hunting. There is no value at all to the "new" Bosmer passive. In pve it's totally useless (even to me who has never messed with a Bosmer who uses stealth - I don't sneak or thieve or assassinate); in pvp it's not useful enough that people who have used the race in the past are still using it. NO ONE THINKS THIS RACIAL IS VALUABLE.
Jeez. Speaking of not comprehending. How about you go read the whole of the thread?
Oh right. You don't have the time.
You’re not comprehending anything if I’m saying you’re not comprehending. It’s my point you’re trying to understand, remember?. There’s value in the speed and pen passive in pvp. As far as the other portion it’s not valuable to me but I’m sure it’s valuable to someone else. You and others just like to speak for the entire community, as if people have to share the same opinions as you. It’s not valuable because you say so ? Got it lol
If one person is having issues with comprehension, it may be them.
If it's a whole thread of people, then maybe the issue is that you are not communicating effectively.
I personally did not understand that "However, the issue is the fact it’s balanced with pve and pvp in mind , making things either pointless, niche or valuable. The real culprit is balance," was supposed to mean "It’s valuable to whoever think it’s valuable, it’s pointless to whoever think it’s pointless and it’s niche to whoever think it’s niche. Therefore it can be all 3. Why is that hard to understand? The speed passive for example can be pointless to you, valuable to me and niche to someone else."
The phrase "However, the issue is the fact it’s balanced with pve and pvp in mind...," can be read two ways. One: that the current set of all passives IS in perfect balance now for all modes of gameplay, or Two: that the devs made the effort to balance things while considering all modes of gameplay. Neither of these readings have anything to do with subjective values. That's a clarification you added later.
"It’s my point you’re trying to understand, remember?" It's also your point that you are trying to get across.
"As far as the other portion it’s not valuable to me but I’m sure it’s valuable to someone else." Well, hold on now. This is the whole point of the whole thread, and here you confess that you really don't care about the detection bit. As for anyone finding that bit to be useful, I seriously doubt it. We've had people go in Cyrodiil (or PVP at least, since it is completely useless outside of PVP by design) and test it. During the recent event in Cyrodiil, when PVE'ers were flooding into Cyrodiil and crying they were getting PVP'ed in PVP-land one of our regulars, who has the skill, saw an enemy hide in a delve waiting for the boss to spawn. So he tried to use his detection bonus to find that person. It failed. He had to use a magelight or camouflaged hunter or potion or something to actually detect the hidden enemy. I think Ratzkifal also did some testing (it may have been Wedgebert, not sure now) that showed that it was actually a detriment to hiding from a hidden enemy. The enemy would see a half-open detection eye before the Bosmer player would.
Does this mean there is not one person in the whole world who would find that worthwhile? Well, no. People are stupid. No matter how stupid, useless, dangerous, or disgusting something may be there is some idiot, somewhere, who not only likes it but pays extra for it.
Argumentum ad populum?
But sure , I could’ve communicated more effectively, I chose to speak plainly though, which still doesn’t work well with over thinkers.
Anyways it’s probably more people than you think that want the passive. They’re just not talking about it, yet. Me and other people didn’t think there was enough people who cared about faction lock but look how that turned out.
Talking about this - Rank II - Medium Armor Rank 34
Reduces the cost of sneaking by 7% per piece of Medium Armor equipped.
Also reduces the size of your detection area by 5% per piece of Medium Armor equipped.
Ok, this is where ZOS is crap at communicating. That's a hiding bonus, not a detection bonus. I hate, hate, hate the way ZOS describes the hide bonus as 'stealth detection radius decrease' and the detection bonus as 'stealth detection radius increase.' It's ambiguous as hell.
I understand why people would want something more armor based in an armor skill line. It's also kind of nonsensical that you hide better in leather armor than clothing. It should be in the legerdemain line, but (as BlueRaven has pointed out) the only way to level that skill reliably is to have it already maxed out. If the skill were to be replaced by something sensible in another skill line, I'd be fine with it, but removing it without a replacement is a non-starter. I think it should be a legerdemain skill, +5% hiding bonus per medium armor, +7% per light armor; and the legerdemain skill line gets experience from current sources (picking locks, fencing, picking pockets) and from some kind of sneaking around thing, maybe from successfully attacking a hostile critter or something like that. The Skyrim method of levelling sneak by crouching behind a guard and going away for a few hours shouldn't be an option.Taking stealth away from the Bosmer is like taking magic away from the Altmer, making Nords allergic to mead, or making Orcs pretty.3 -
Jaraal✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭CatchMeTrolling wrote: »
There’s people joking about the uselessness of pen and speed . Yet wood elf is bis for medium armor builds in pvp. I assume most people in this thread are pve players anyways.
Gee, you don't think Bosmer having the highest total racial stamina buffs might have something to do with it?
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CatchMeTrolling✭✭✭✭✭
✭CatchMeTrolling wrote: »
There’s people joking about the uselessness of pen and speed . Yet wood elf is bis for medium armor builds in pvp. I assume most people in this thread are pve players anyways.
Gee, you don't think Bosmer having the highest total racial stamina buffs might have something to do with it?
You don’t pvp, because non medium armor players go orc and Redguard in pvp and have been for the longest.
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Kalle_Demos✭✭✭✭✭TAMRIEL OUTLAW REFUGE CENSUS: Alliances and Chapters without Elsweyr
I went through the base game zones and a selection of DLC/chapter zones and counted the number of members of each race to develop a criminal statistic. If a character there was not a criminal nor affiliated with them, they wouldn't be counted. Otherwise when in doubt, I would count them.
To avoid overrepresentation these numbers have been taken by not counting Bretons in Breton territory, not counting Redguards in Redguard territory etc. For the purpose of the census, I decided that Bangkorai is Breton territory, because the outlaw refuge is in Evermore, which is still Breton territory.
Overall:
Altmer 17
Argonian 19
Breton 13
Bosmer: 12
Dunmer 12
Imperial 2
Khajiit 20+1
Nord: 17
Orc: 20
Redguard 24+1
I certainly did not expect so few Imperials even though I expected fewer of them than other races, but I was also having difficulties telling tanned Bretons, Imperials and Redguards apart. Usually the name would give it away, but it's possible some Bretons/Redguards were actually Imperials. Still, seeing so many more Altmer than Dunmer and Bosmer was a surprise to be sure. Orcs, not as much. Although they aren't very sneaky, they are known to be bandits.
Here is the data broken down into alliances.Outlaw Refuge census part 1 DC territory + Wrothgar:
Altmer: 4
Argonian: 5
Breton: 4 + 1 person pretending not to be an undercover guard
Bosmer: 5
Dunmer: 2
Imperial 2
Khajiit: 6 + 1 woman attracted to criminals and villains
Nord: 4
Orcs: 11
Redguard: 11 + 1 guy who hangs out in the outlaw refuge but seems to hate criminals
It comes as no surprise that DC races are overrepresented in DC zones, although I had expected that not to be the case with the way I am counting. That's why I decided to note the results of each alliance separately as well.
Part 2 AD + Summerset (Outlaw Refuge and Mother's Den)
Altmer: 10
Argonian: 4
Breton: 4
Bosmer: 5 + one guy studying criminals with a very controversial theory
Dunmer:4
Imperial: 0
Khajiit: 10
Nord: 5
Orc: 5
Redguard: 7
I am very surprised that even when not counting the Bosmer in their home zones, there weren't a whole lot of them around. I am also surprised how many Redguards are criminals. So far they seem disproportionally criminal.
On the character I did the census on, I hadn't completed the quest of Velyn Harbor. It's possible that a lot of NPCs are missing there, because it felt rather empty.
Part 3 EP + Vvardenfell
Altmer: 3
Argonian: 10
Breton: 5
Bosmer: 2
Dunmer: 6
Imperial: 0
Khajiit: 4
Nord: 8
Orc: 4
Redguard: 6
As I suspected, Redguards are still quite criminal even outside their home territories. Curious.
As it turns out, overrepresentation still happens, but it is tied to alliances more than each race individually.
The census probably needs to be redone, but for now what can be done with the data is take out the races belonging to the alliance and check out those results.
Corrected:
Altmer 7
Argonian 9
Breton 9
Bosmer 7
Dunmer 6
Imperial 2
Khajiit: 10
Nord 9
Orc 9
Redguard 13
As we can see, Redguards are still strangely many, but this time Bosmer, while still behind, are closer to the rest than before. This data suggests that ZOS is probably trying to present a more well-mixed selection of characters to the player than sticking to stereotypes. Having almost or more than twice as many Redguards be criminals than 4 of the 9 other races have is a bit weird though, considering they aren't known to be faced with predjudice or notoriously criminal. Who would have thought?
"If I am to be Queen, I must look fear in the face and conquer it. How can I ask my people to have faith in me if I don't have faith in myself?" - Queen Ayrenn3 -
CatchMeTrolling✭✭✭✭✭
✭Cundu_Ertur wrote: »CatchMeTrolling wrote: »Cundu_Ertur wrote: »CatchMeTrolling wrote: »Sylvermynx wrote: »CatchMeTrolling wrote: »Sylvermynx wrote: »CatchMeTrolling wrote: »Sylvermynx wrote: »CatchMeTrolling wrote: »CatchMeTrolling wrote: »Points were made, seems my job here is done.
However, the issue is the fact it’s balanced with pve and pvp in mind , making things either pointless, niche or valuable. The real culprit is balance.
What? Hunters eye has no PvE value. You didn't really convince anyone. And you did not provide context for any of your assertions.
But sure, whatever.
making things either pointless, niche or valuable
Well.... for pve, it's pointless. For pvp it's niche. So where do you think it's valuable?
Another example of reading but not comprehending. It doesn’t have to be all three and at the same time it can be all 3 because it depends on how valuable, niche or pointless it is to someone, which clearly varies.
There’s people joking about the uselessness of pen and speed . Yet wood elf is bis for medium armor builds in pvp. I assume most people in this thread are pve players anyways.
Eh, I quoted your post verbatim. I gave my input on two of the three options. You're the one who posited three "points". So, I ask again, where do you think it's "valuable"?
You're just here to try to get this thread closed. Vide your user ID....
No you’re just not comprehending. It’s valuable to whoever think it’s valuable, it’s pointless to whoever think it’s pointless and it’s niche to whoever think it’s niche. Therefore it can be all 3. Why is that hard to understand? The speed passive for example can be pointless to you, valuable to me and niche to someone else.
I'm comprehending just fine. You're here to get this thread closed. You're witch hunting. There is no value at all to the "new" Bosmer passive. In pve it's totally useless (even to me who has never messed with a Bosmer who uses stealth - I don't sneak or thieve or assassinate); in pvp it's not useful enough that people who have used the race in the past are still using it. NO ONE THINKS THIS RACIAL IS VALUABLE.
Jeez. Speaking of not comprehending. How about you go read the whole of the thread?
Oh right. You don't have the time.
You’re not comprehending anything if I’m saying you’re not comprehending. It’s my point you’re trying to understand, remember?. There’s value in the speed and pen passive in pvp. As far as the other portion it’s not valuable to me but I’m sure it’s valuable to someone else. You and others just like to speak for the entire community, as if people have to share the same opinions as you. It’s not valuable because you say so ? Got it lol
If one person is having issues with comprehension, it may be them.
If it's a whole thread of people, then maybe the issue is that you are not communicating effectively.
I personally did not understand that "However, the issue is the fact it’s balanced with pve and pvp in mind , making things either pointless, niche or valuable. The real culprit is balance," was supposed to mean "It’s valuable to whoever think it’s valuable, it’s pointless to whoever think it’s pointless and it’s niche to whoever think it’s niche. Therefore it can be all 3. Why is that hard to understand? The speed passive for example can be pointless to you, valuable to me and niche to someone else."
The phrase "However, the issue is the fact it’s balanced with pve and pvp in mind...," can be read two ways. One: that the current set of all passives IS in perfect balance now for all modes of gameplay, or Two: that the devs made the effort to balance things while considering all modes of gameplay. Neither of these readings have anything to do with subjective values. That's a clarification you added later.
"It’s my point you’re trying to understand, remember?" It's also your point that you are trying to get across.
"As far as the other portion it’s not valuable to me but I’m sure it’s valuable to someone else." Well, hold on now. This is the whole point of the whole thread, and here you confess that you really don't care about the detection bit. As for anyone finding that bit to be useful, I seriously doubt it. We've had people go in Cyrodiil (or PVP at least, since it is completely useless outside of PVP by design) and test it. During the recent event in Cyrodiil, when PVE'ers were flooding into Cyrodiil and crying they were getting PVP'ed in PVP-land one of our regulars, who has the skill, saw an enemy hide in a delve waiting for the boss to spawn. So he tried to use his detection bonus to find that person. It failed. He had to use a magelight or camouflaged hunter or potion or something to actually detect the hidden enemy. I think Ratzkifal also did some testing (it may have been Wedgebert, not sure now) that showed that it was actually a detriment to hiding from a hidden enemy. The enemy would see a half-open detection eye before the Bosmer player would.
Does this mean there is not one person in the whole world who would find that worthwhile? Well, no. People are stupid. No matter how stupid, useless, dangerous, or disgusting something may be there is some idiot, somewhere, who not only likes it but pays extra for it.
Argumentum ad populum?
But sure , I could’ve communicated more effectively, I chose to speak plainly though, which still doesn’t work well with over thinkers.
Anyways it’s probably more people than you think that want the passive. They’re just not talking about it, yet. Me and other people didn’t think there was enough people who cared about faction lock but look how that turned out.
Talking about this - Rank II - Medium Armor Rank 34
Reduces the cost of sneaking by 7% per piece of Medium Armor equipped.
Also reduces the size of your detection area by 5% per piece of Medium Armor equipped.
Ok, this is where ZOS is crap at communicating. That's a hiding bonus, not a detection bonus. I hate, hate, hate the way ZOS describes the hide bonus as 'stealth detection radius decrease' and the detection bonus as 'stealth detection radius increase.' It's ambiguous as hell.
I understand why people would want something more armor based in an armor skill line. It's also kind of nonsensical that you hide better in leather armor than clothing. It should be in the legerdemain line, but (as BlueRaven has pointed out) the only way to level that skill reliably is to have it already maxed out. If the skill were to be replaced by something sensible in another skill line, I'd be fine with it, but removing it without a replacement is a non-starter. I think it should be a legerdemain skill, +5% hiding bonus per medium armor, +7% per light armor; and the legerdemain skill line gets experience from current sources (picking locks, fencing, picking pockets) and from some kind of sneaking around thing, maybe from successfully attacking a hostile critter or something like that. The Skyrim method of levelling sneak by crouching behind a guard and going away for a few hours shouldn't be an option.
Oh I thought it was a detect passive, never really used it to know. Their wording.
I think the stealth buffs shouldn’t be a part of the race passives. Unless it’s stealth damage, they’re not important enough from a large scale point of view. However, I already thought that they belonged in the thief skillline. Race passives should favor more common gameplay, whether it’s in pve or pvp. If this was a single player game that would be a different story. I’m sure that’s the idea the devs had with the race balance, more flexible passives.
0 -
Uryel✭✭✭✭✭
✭CatchMeTrolling wrote: »You guys are annoyed by something the series has been doing.
Point me to any other game in the series where the racial passives have changed entirely during the existence of ONE game, and I'll shut up.
Flight magic existed in Morrowind but was outlawed in Oblivion, so no one was flying anymore, not even the worst outlaws. That was stupid, by the way, outlaws would have continued to fly... But hey, whatever. At least it happened between games. You may or may not approe as you start a new game, but it doesn't take anything away from an existing character.
You might want to answer that, as solo games, that wouldn't have happened. One word then : patch. Techically, it was possible. They added bloody horse armors in Oblivion with a patch, right ? And tried to make them a paid feature, too. It never happened not because of technical possibility, but because no one in their right mind would break existing characters so much.
Argonians lost their poison resistance ? Yeah, it's absurd, lore wise. How does that break their gameplay ? It doesn't. It's a moderate hindrance.
Altmers now regen their lower ressource pool, generally stamina, with something called spell recharge ? Not lore friendly, slightly annoying, but it doesn't fundamentally change their identity. Heck, the change to Argonians is more fundamental than that, identity-wise.
Now, let'st ake characters that may be as old as having been created over 4 years ago, most likely BECAUSE of the racial bonuses the players wanted to make use of, because racials are something you can rely on. MMORPGs are changing by nature, but never in the history of TES has a race's passive bonus changed in the course of a single game. And, 'lo and behold, your precious thieve is now a guard. Yay.
Yes, TES games changed bonuses from game to game. Generally, though, they kept some sort of racial guideline. Never had those changes happened during the course of a game, and never from "hey, you're an awesome thief" to "hey, you're a rather average guard".
All pseudo excuses that it "fits the lore" are bulldung. "but they are good hunters, so they can see stuff !" is basically what the dev team said. The hunters is silent, discreet, sneaky, lest the prey gets away. "they will be awesome at detecting stuff, even though nothing hides in PvE", the dev team said. Well, then, that makes the Bosmers the only race to have a racial passive that is entirely useless in PvE. Well, if I'm fair, I should count the Breton's no-skill-point passive that lets them earn a tiny alliance point bonus.
The only reason Bosmers have lost their stealth passive is that the combat lead is the former PvP lead, and he's playing favourite. Whiners complain about snipe builds ? Nerf Bosmers. Let's balance stuff for PvP, because obviousy a ONE zone matters more than 95% of the game. But hey, don't worry, it's ok, it still fits the lore. Kinda. If we say so.
Considering the same team is patting themselves on the back on how amazing the dragons are, when their animations are really bad and fighting one feels like a lifeless puppet is moving around withou any care for what is happening around, considering they are so proud of the state of the game when many necromancers are bugged to hell and back and then to hell again... I'm not surprised. But they have seen the last of my money, on this game, the next, and the next, and the next.
Only thing that could make me change my mind would be proper communication, and a return to the stealthy passive. But the longer they remain silent and ignore the issue entirely, the more I'm likely to demand the combat lead's head on a plate. Proper communication goes a long way to redeem one in the eyes of their customers. ZOS type of communication, or lack thereof, only increases customer's anger.7 -
Uryel✭✭✭✭✭
✭Having almost or more than twice as many Redguards be criminals than 4 of the 9 other races have is a bit weird though, considering they aren't known to be faced with predjudice or notoriously criminal. Who would have thought?
US dev team, Black characters, what did you expect ? :P1 -
anadandy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Let's not get too far into the weeds.
The Hunter's Eye passive is fundamentally broken, in a way that has never been addressed by the Devs despite weeks of reasoned PTS feedback and months of live feedback in this thread and others.
Stealth detection is, by their own admission, useless in PvE. It is of marginal use in PvP and can be replicated by much better skills/items. It has also been proven through in game testing to actually be detrimental to Bosmer by revealing them sooner than they can reveal others.
No other race has a passive that is only useful in one game mode. In their own patch notes, the devs talk about examining other passives (specifically the duration of the dodge roll buff) performance balance between the modes, but not Stealth Detection. This despite the fact that the problem was brought up immediately when the racial changes were first posted pre-PTS.8 -
Ratzkifal✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭CatchMeTrolling wrote: »Cundu_Ertur wrote: »CatchMeTrolling wrote: »Cundu_Ertur wrote: »CatchMeTrolling wrote: »Sylvermynx wrote: »CatchMeTrolling wrote: »Sylvermynx wrote: »CatchMeTrolling wrote: »Sylvermynx wrote: »CatchMeTrolling wrote: »CatchMeTrolling wrote: »Points were made, seems my job here is done.
However, the issue is the fact it’s balanced with pve and pvp in mind , making things either pointless, niche or valuable. The real culprit is balance.
What? Hunters eye has no PvE value. You didn't really convince anyone. And you did not provide context for any of your assertions.
But sure, whatever.
making things either pointless, niche or valuable
Well.... for pve, it's pointless. For pvp it's niche. So where do you think it's valuable?
Another example of reading but not comprehending. It doesn’t have to be all three and at the same time it can be all 3 because it depends on how valuable, niche or pointless it is to someone, which clearly varies.
There’s people joking about the uselessness of pen and speed . Yet wood elf is bis for medium armor builds in pvp. I assume most people in this thread are pve players anyways.
Eh, I quoted your post verbatim. I gave my input on two of the three options. You're the one who posited three "points". So, I ask again, where do you think it's "valuable"?
You're just here to try to get this thread closed. Vide your user ID....
No you’re just not comprehending. It’s valuable to whoever think it’s valuable, it’s pointless to whoever think it’s pointless and it’s niche to whoever think it’s niche. Therefore it can be all 3. Why is that hard to understand? The speed passive for example can be pointless to you, valuable to me and niche to someone else.
I'm comprehending just fine. You're here to get this thread closed. You're witch hunting. There is no value at all to the "new" Bosmer passive. In pve it's totally useless (even to me who has never messed with a Bosmer who uses stealth - I don't sneak or thieve or assassinate); in pvp it's not useful enough that people who have used the race in the past are still using it. NO ONE THINKS THIS RACIAL IS VALUABLE.
Jeez. Speaking of not comprehending. How about you go read the whole of the thread?
Oh right. You don't have the time.
You’re not comprehending anything if I’m saying you’re not comprehending. It’s my point you’re trying to understand, remember?. There’s value in the speed and pen passive in pvp. As far as the other portion it’s not valuable to me but I’m sure it’s valuable to someone else. You and others just like to speak for the entire community, as if people have to share the same opinions as you. It’s not valuable because you say so ? Got it lol
If one person is having issues with comprehension, it may be them.
If it's a whole thread of people, then maybe the issue is that you are not communicating effectively.
I personally did not understand that "However, the issue is the fact it’s balanced with pve and pvp in mind , making things either pointless, niche or valuable. The real culprit is balance," was supposed to mean "It’s valuable to whoever think it’s valuable, it’s pointless to whoever think it’s pointless and it’s niche to whoever think it’s niche. Therefore it can be all 3. Why is that hard to understand? The speed passive for example can be pointless to you, valuable to me and niche to someone else."
The phrase "However, the issue is the fact it’s balanced with pve and pvp in mind...," can be read two ways. One: that the current set of all passives IS in perfect balance now for all modes of gameplay, or Two: that the devs made the effort to balance things while considering all modes of gameplay. Neither of these readings have anything to do with subjective values. That's a clarification you added later.
"It’s my point you’re trying to understand, remember?" It's also your point that you are trying to get across.
"As far as the other portion it’s not valuable to me but I’m sure it’s valuable to someone else." Well, hold on now. This is the whole point of the whole thread, and here you confess that you really don't care about the detection bit. As for anyone finding that bit to be useful, I seriously doubt it. We've had people go in Cyrodiil (or PVP at least, since it is completely useless outside of PVP by design) and test it. During the recent event in Cyrodiil, when PVE'ers were flooding into Cyrodiil and crying they were getting PVP'ed in PVP-land one of our regulars, who has the skill, saw an enemy hide in a delve waiting for the boss to spawn. So he tried to use his detection bonus to find that person. It failed. He had to use a magelight or camouflaged hunter or potion or something to actually detect the hidden enemy. I think Ratzkifal also did some testing (it may have been Wedgebert, not sure now) that showed that it was actually a detriment to hiding from a hidden enemy. The enemy would see a half-open detection eye before the Bosmer player would.
Does this mean there is not one person in the whole world who would find that worthwhile? Well, no. People are stupid. No matter how stupid, useless, dangerous, or disgusting something may be there is some idiot, somewhere, who not only likes it but pays extra for it.
Argumentum ad populum?
But sure , I could’ve communicated more effectively, I chose to speak plainly though, which still doesn’t work well with over thinkers.
Anyways it’s probably more people than you think that want the passive. They’re just not talking about it, yet. Me and other people didn’t think there was enough people who cared about faction lock but look how that turned out.
Talking about this - Rank II - Medium Armor Rank 34
Reduces the cost of sneaking by 7% per piece of Medium Armor equipped.
Also reduces the size of your detection area by 5% per piece of Medium Armor equipped.
Ok, this is where ZOS is crap at communicating. That's a hiding bonus, not a detection bonus. I hate, hate, hate the way ZOS describes the hide bonus as 'stealth detection radius decrease' and the detection bonus as 'stealth detection radius increase.' It's ambiguous as hell.
I understand why people would want something more armor based in an armor skill line. It's also kind of nonsensical that you hide better in leather armor than clothing. It should be in the legerdemain line, but (as BlueRaven has pointed out) the only way to level that skill reliably is to have it already maxed out. If the skill were to be replaced by something sensible in another skill line, I'd be fine with it, but removing it without a replacement is a non-starter. I think it should be a legerdemain skill, +5% hiding bonus per medium armor, +7% per light armor; and the legerdemain skill line gets experience from current sources (picking locks, fencing, picking pockets) and from some kind of sneaking around thing, maybe from successfully attacking a hostile critter or something like that. The Skyrim method of levelling sneak by crouching behind a guard and going away for a few hours shouldn't be an option.
Oh I thought it was a detect passive, never really used it to know. Their wording.
I think the stealth buffs shouldn’t be a part of the race passives. Unless it’s stealth damage, they’re not important enough from a large scale point of view. However, I already thought that they belonged in the thief skillline. Race passives should favor more common gameplay, whether it’s in pve or pvp. If this was a single player game that would be a different story. I’m sure that’s the idea the devs had with the race balance, more flexible passives.
You said it yourself. Race passives should favor more common gameplay. A stealth bonus works in all three parts of the game. PvP, PvE (when going through delves and skipping ahead in dungeons) and non-combat gameplay like Justice gameplay. Detection is the least flexible bonus imaginable though. NPCs don't sneak. Period. Not even the NPC Nightblades that go invisible get revealed by detection. It is exclusively PvP and that is a major problem in regards to ZOS' own goals.
If people are going to complain about detection being removed again, then let them. Here is what I'll tell them: all the arguments you throw at us can be turned on you too, but you don't have lore or habitute of 5 years of ESO on your side in this. So yeah, pick up your Sentry and Way of the Air set if you like detection, but leave the 25 years of lore and our character identities in peace. Or you can go and convince ZOS that Bosmer can have stealth as well as detection, nothing is stopping you and none of us would oppose that as long it's a pure buff and nothing else gets taken away.Edited by Ratzkifal on June 19, 2019 2:16PMThis Bosmer was tortured to death. There is nothing left to be done.6 -
Koronach✭✭✭✭✭CatchMeTrolling wrote: »Cundu_Ertur wrote: »CatchMeTrolling wrote: »Cundu_Ertur wrote: »
Sorcs can and do command pets. Bosmer don't because that was an active ability, not a passive, and there are no active abilities.CatchMeTrolling wrote: »We can’t command pets, orcs arent in Cyrodiil raging, High elf’s aren’t weak to magic, Bretons don’t absorb magic, argonians stealth/assassin history is irrelevant in the game etc.
High Elves weren't weak to magic in Skyrim.
Bretons' absorb magic ability was an active one in Skyrim, and there are no active abilities, and did not exist before that. If you mean their resistance to magic, they have that now.
Orcs ARE in Cyrodiil raging, especially if you are AD or EP.
And you haven't noticed but several of us, myself included, have called for Dunmer and Argonians to have a bonus to hiding as well, since they have consistently been 'second tier' thieves behind Bosmer and Khajiit. So we are well aware of that.
So of the things you mentioned, not one is relevant or equivalent.
There is not one single sliver of evidence for Bosmer ever having any kind of counter stealth ability while there is significant evidence for Bosmer being stealthy.
They removed lore for not lore. And that's fact.
edit to add: I notice that you ignored my question. Demonstrate what thief ability Bosmeri have a bonus to now.
Thanks, so to sum it up is the lore , passives and abilities can change from game to game?. Glad we figured that out on our own.
Let’s see:
Oblivion- High Elf Disease Resistance ability: Resist Disease 75% on Self, constant
High Elf Elemental Weakness ability: Weakness to Fire, Frost & Shock 25% on Self, constant
Skyrim - Resist Poison: Your Redguard blood gives you 50% resistance to poison.
Oblivion: Resist Poison 75% – Passive
Resist Disease 75% – Passive
Oblivion- Orc - Resist Magicka 25%
Skyrim - Weakness to Cold- Argonians become colder 25% faster in cold environments.
And yes I ignored it because you’re not getting that passives can change whenever the devs feel like they want to change them. Just look at the examples above. You guys are annoyed by something the series has been doing.
NO, you're ignoring it because it completely negates your position.
What has never changed from game to game is the central role of the race.
Orcs have NEVER been particularly magical.
Bretons have NEVER been particularly warrior like.
And this can be done for each and every race.
So, answer or acknowledge that you are wrong: to what thief ability do Bosmeri have a bonus now?
Thanks for showing your bias. Zos should rightfully ignore you guys.
This isn't Skyrim this is ESO with it's own lore. I asked in the other thread and I'll ask it again.
Ok so do you have an explanation for this epic lore fail? https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/462221/argonians-losing-their-resistance-to-poison-an-open-letter/p1
I'm still waiting for someone to defend ZoS on this change. Nobody even bothers to argue, because you can't defend it.
7 -
Cundu_Ertur✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
I suspect that knowing this should adjust how much outrage you would think reverting the passive would generate. I suspect that if you had suggested removing the medium armor skill to another Bosmer they would have been horrified and very vehement: you were saying, 'hey Bosmer, how about we take away every skill that helps you hide.'CatchMeTrolling wrote: »Cundu_Ertur wrote: »CatchMeTrolling wrote: »Cundu_Ertur wrote: »CatchMeTrolling wrote: »Sylvermynx wrote: »CatchMeTrolling wrote: »Sylvermynx wrote: »CatchMeTrolling wrote: »Sylvermynx wrote: »CatchMeTrolling wrote: »CatchMeTrolling wrote: »Points were made, seems my job here is done.
However, the issue is the fact it’s balanced with pve and pvp in mind , making things either pointless, niche or valuable. The real culprit is balance.
What? Hunters eye has no PvE value. You didn't really convince anyone. And you did not provide context for any of your assertions.
But sure, whatever.
making things either pointless, niche or valuable
Well.... for pve, it's pointless. For pvp it's niche. So where do you think it's valuable?
Another example of reading but not comprehending. It doesn’t have to be all three and at the same time it can be all 3 because it depends on how valuable, niche or pointless it is to someone, which clearly varies.
There’s people joking about the uselessness of pen and speed . Yet wood elf is bis for medium armor builds in pvp. I assume most people in this thread are pve players anyways.
Eh, I quoted your post verbatim. I gave my input on two of the three options. You're the one who posited three "points". So, I ask again, where do you think it's "valuable"?
You're just here to try to get this thread closed. Vide your user ID....
No you’re just not comprehending. It’s valuable to whoever think it’s valuable, it’s pointless to whoever think it’s pointless and it’s niche to whoever think it’s niche. Therefore it can be all 3. Why is that hard to understand? The speed passive for example can be pointless to you, valuable to me and niche to someone else.
I'm comprehending just fine. You're here to get this thread closed. You're witch hunting. There is no value at all to the "new" Bosmer passive. In pve it's totally useless (even to me who has never messed with a Bosmer who uses stealth - I don't sneak or thieve or assassinate); in pvp it's not useful enough that people who have used the race in the past are still using it. NO ONE THINKS THIS RACIAL IS VALUABLE.
Jeez. Speaking of not comprehending. How about you go read the whole of the thread?
Oh right. You don't have the time.
You’re not comprehending anything if I’m saying you’re not comprehending. It’s my point you’re trying to understand, remember?. There’s value in the speed and pen passive in pvp. As far as the other portion it’s not valuable to me but I’m sure it’s valuable to someone else. You and others just like to speak for the entire community, as if people have to share the same opinions as you. It’s not valuable because you say so ? Got it lol
If one person is having issues with comprehension, it may be them.
If it's a whole thread of people, then maybe the issue is that you are not communicating effectively.
I personally did not understand that "However, the issue is the fact it’s balanced with pve and pvp in mind , making things either pointless, niche or valuable. The real culprit is balance," was supposed to mean "It’s valuable to whoever think it’s valuable, it’s pointless to whoever think it’s pointless and it’s niche to whoever think it’s niche. Therefore it can be all 3. Why is that hard to understand? The speed passive for example can be pointless to you, valuable to me and niche to someone else."
The phrase "However, the issue is the fact it’s balanced with pve and pvp in mind...," can be read two ways. One: that the current set of all passives IS in perfect balance now for all modes of gameplay, or Two: that the devs made the effort to balance things while considering all modes of gameplay. Neither of these readings have anything to do with subjective values. That's a clarification you added later.
"It’s my point you’re trying to understand, remember?" It's also your point that you are trying to get across.
"As far as the other portion it’s not valuable to me but I’m sure it’s valuable to someone else." Well, hold on now. This is the whole point of the whole thread, and here you confess that you really don't care about the detection bit. As for anyone finding that bit to be useful, I seriously doubt it. We've had people go in Cyrodiil (or PVP at least, since it is completely useless outside of PVP by design) and test it. During the recent event in Cyrodiil, when PVE'ers were flooding into Cyrodiil and crying they were getting PVP'ed in PVP-land one of our regulars, who has the skill, saw an enemy hide in a delve waiting for the boss to spawn. So he tried to use his detection bonus to find that person. It failed. He had to use a magelight or camouflaged hunter or potion or something to actually detect the hidden enemy. I think Ratzkifal also did some testing (it may have been Wedgebert, not sure now) that showed that it was actually a detriment to hiding from a hidden enemy. The enemy would see a half-open detection eye before the Bosmer player would.
Does this mean there is not one person in the whole world who would find that worthwhile? Well, no. People are stupid. No matter how stupid, useless, dangerous, or disgusting something may be there is some idiot, somewhere, who not only likes it but pays extra for it.
Argumentum ad populum?
But sure , I could’ve communicated more effectively, I chose to speak plainly though, which still doesn’t work well with over thinkers.
Anyways it’s probably more people than you think that want the passive. They’re just not talking about it, yet. Me and other people didn’t think there was enough people who cared about faction lock but look how that turned out.
Talking about this - Rank II - Medium Armor Rank 34
Reduces the cost of sneaking by 7% per piece of Medium Armor equipped.
Also reduces the size of your detection area by 5% per piece of Medium Armor equipped.
Ok, this is where ZOS is crap at communicating. That's a hiding bonus, not a detection bonus. I hate, hate, hate the way ZOS describes the hide bonus as 'stealth detection radius decrease' and the detection bonus as 'stealth detection radius increase.' It's ambiguous as hell.
I understand why people would want something more armor based in an armor skill line. It's also kind of nonsensical that you hide better in leather armor than clothing. It should be in the legerdemain line, but (as BlueRaven has pointed out) the only way to level that skill reliably is to have it already maxed out. If the skill were to be replaced by something sensible in another skill line, I'd be fine with it, but removing it without a replacement is a non-starter. I think it should be a legerdemain skill, +5% hiding bonus per medium armor, +7% per light armor; and the legerdemain skill line gets experience from current sources (picking locks, fencing, picking pockets) and from some kind of sneaking around thing, maybe from successfully attacking a hostile critter or something like that. The Skyrim method of levelling sneak by crouching behind a guard and going away for a few hours shouldn't be an option.
Oh I thought it was a detect passive, never really used it to know. Their wording.
I think they achieved that goal better with the Khajiit passive. The old passive was bad for both races in that if you didn't use stealth much or at all it was a dead passive. The new Khajiit passive still has the sneaking bonus, but also has a bonus to criticals.CatchMeTrolling wrote: »I think the stealth buffs shouldn’t be a part of the race passives. Unless it’s stealth damage, they’re not important enough from a large scale point of view. However, I already thought that they belonged in the thief skillline. Race passives should favor more common gameplay, whether it’s in pve or pvp. If this was a single player game that would be a different story. I’m sure that’s the idea the devs had with the race balance, more flexible passives.
I think we should still have stealth bonus racials, just not the way it had been (where the whole passive was useless if you didn't use stealth) and not the way it is now (only one race can be effective thieves without gear swapping on the fly). So long as every passive has some use if you use stealth or not, wouldn't that be ok?Taking stealth away from the Bosmer is like taking magic away from the Altmer, making Nords allergic to mead, or making Orcs pretty.2 -
Cundu_Ertur✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭CatchMeTrolling wrote: »Cundu_Ertur wrote: »CatchMeTrolling wrote: »Cundu_Ertur wrote: »
Sorcs can and do command pets. Bosmer don't because that was an active ability, not a passive, and there are no active abilities.CatchMeTrolling wrote: »We can’t command pets, orcs arent in Cyrodiil raging, High elf’s aren’t weak to magic, Bretons don’t absorb magic, argonians stealth/assassin history is irrelevant in the game etc.
High Elves weren't weak to magic in Skyrim.
Bretons' absorb magic ability was an active one in Skyrim, and there are no active abilities, and did not exist before that. If you mean their resistance to magic, they have that now.
Orcs ARE in Cyrodiil raging, especially if you are AD or EP.
And you haven't noticed but several of us, myself included, have called for Dunmer and Argonians to have a bonus to hiding as well, since they have consistently been 'second tier' thieves behind Bosmer and Khajiit. So we are well aware of that.
So of the things you mentioned, not one is relevant or equivalent.
There is not one single sliver of evidence for Bosmer ever having any kind of counter stealth ability while there is significant evidence for Bosmer being stealthy.
They removed lore for not lore. And that's fact.
edit to add: I notice that you ignored my question. Demonstrate what thief ability Bosmeri have a bonus to now.
Thanks, so to sum it up is the lore , passives and abilities can change from game to game?. Glad we figured that out on our own.
Let’s see:
Oblivion- High Elf Disease Resistance ability: Resist Disease 75% on Self, constant
High Elf Elemental Weakness ability: Weakness to Fire, Frost & Shock 25% on Self, constant
Skyrim - Resist Poison: Your Redguard blood gives you 50% resistance to poison.
Oblivion: Resist Poison 75% – Passive
Resist Disease 75% – Passive
Oblivion- Orc - Resist Magicka 25%
Skyrim - Weakness to Cold- Argonians become colder 25% faster in cold environments.
And yes I ignored it because you’re not getting that passives can change whenever the devs feel like they want to change them. Just look at the examples above. You guys are annoyed by something the series has been doing.
NO, you're ignoring it because it completely negates your position.
What has never changed from game to game is the central role of the race.
Orcs have NEVER been particularly magical.
Bretons have NEVER been particularly warrior like.
And this can be done for each and every race.
So, answer or acknowledge that you are wrong: to what thief ability do Bosmeri have a bonus now?
Thanks for showing your bias. Zos should rightfully ignore you guys.
This isn't Skyrim this is ESO with it's own lore. I asked in the other thread and I'll ask it again.
Ok so do you have an explanation for this epic lore fail? https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/462221/argonians-losing-their-resistance-to-poison-an-open-letter/p1
I'm still waiting for someone to defend ZoS on this change. Nobody even bothers to argue, because you can't defend it.
There are other examples in dialogue where Bosmer are talking about how they are good at sneaking around, too. There's screenshots of it. And, yeah, the devs failed to consider their own ESO specific lore with some of these changes, specifically Argonian poison resistance and Bosmer stealth.Or you can go and convince ZOS that Bosmer can have stealth as well as detection, nothing is stopping you and none of us would oppose that as long it's a pure buff and nothing else gets taken away.
I'd grumble a bit. If anyone should have the detection thing it is Orcs, by this game's internal lore.Taking stealth away from the Bosmer is like taking magic away from the Altmer, making Nords allergic to mead, or making Orcs pretty.1 -
Cundu_Ertur✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭In other news: faction lock appears to be a lifetime choice now. So, yeah. More excellent work there.Taking stealth away from the Bosmer is like taking magic away from the Altmer, making Nords allergic to mead, or making Orcs pretty.2 -
Ratzkifal✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
They probably realized people could still farm AP by going 3-4 times into 7 day campaigns and then switching to 30 just before the end. Not sure how that works honestly.
Not really stealth related, except that means since I am an EP PvP main, I won't get to use my Bosmer outside of Battlegrounds and IC anymore. Ironic, considering they are now designed around PvP.Edited by Ratzkifal on June 19, 2019 9:12PMThis Bosmer was tortured to death. There is nothing left to be done.1 -
Jaraal✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Let's not get into any arguments, please. They've already demonstrated that threads on Bosmer stealth are unwelcome and subject to being closed. I'd hate to see us completely silenced.3 -
BlueRaven✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭It was nice playing Skyrim last night with Wood Elf proper passives. I forgot how pleasing bow combat is with that nice kill noise on a hit.Sylvermynx wrote: »JayAstrophel wrote: »CatchMeTrolling wrote: »JayAstrophel wrote: »CatchMeTrolling wrote: »CatchMeTrolling wrote: »Cundu_Ertur wrote: »
Sorcs can and do command pets. Bosmer don't because that was an active ability, not a passive, and there are no active abilities.CatchMeTrolling wrote: »We can’t command pets, orcs arent in Cyrodiil raging, High elf’s aren’t weak to magic, Bretons don’t absorb magic, argonians stealth/assassin history is irrelevant in the game etc.
High Elves weren't weak to magic in Skyrim.
Bretons' absorb magic ability was an active one in Skyrim, and there are no active abilities, and did not exist before that. If you mean their resistance to magic, they have that now.
Orcs ARE in Cyrodiil raging, especially if you are AD or EP.
And you haven't noticed but several of us, myself included, have called for Dunmer and Argonians to have a bonus to hiding as well, since they have consistently been 'second tier' thieves behind Bosmer and Khajiit. So we are well aware of that.
So of the things you mentioned, not one is relevant or equivalent.
There is not one single sliver of evidence for Bosmer ever having any kind of counter stealth ability while there is significant evidence for Bosmer being stealthy.
They removed lore for not lore. And that's fact.
edit to add: I notice that you ignored my question. Demonstrate what thief ability Bosmeri have a bonus to now.
Thanks, so to sum it up is the lore , passives and abilities can change from game to game?. Glad we figured that out on our own.
Let’s see:
Oblivion- High Elf Disease Resistance ability: Resist Disease 75% on Self, constant
High Elf Elemental Weakness ability: Weakness to Fire, Frost & Shock 25% on Self, constant
Skyrim - Resist Poison: Your Redguard blood gives you 50% resistance to poison.
Oblivion: Resist Poison 75% – Passive
Resist Disease 75% – Passive
Oblivion- Orc - Resist Magicka 25%
Skyrim - Weakness to Cold- Argonians become colder 25% faster in cold environments.
And yes I ignored it because you’re not getting that passives can change whenever the devs feel like they want to change them. Just look at the examples above. You guys are annoyed by something the series has been doing.
I see you have not mastered the art of google-fu.
First let me repost what I wrote to you in the other thread.
OK Here are the wood elf descriptions from most of the games.
(Hopefully I got the order correct.)
Elder Scrolls 1 Arena
Thieves...hmmm.
Elder Scrolls 2 Daggerfall
Thieves again...
Elder Scrolls 3 Morrowind
Skill Bonuses
Marksman +15
Sneak +10
Light Armor +10
Alchemy +5
Acrobatics +5
Elder scrolls 4 Oblivion
Skill Bonuses
Acrobatics +5
Alchemy +10
Alteration +5
Light Armor +5
Marksman +10
Sneak +10
Elder Scrolls 5 Skyrim
Skill Bonuses (Base level is 15)
Archery 25 (+10 effectively)
Light Armor 20 (+5 effectively)
Sneak 20 (+5 effectively)
Lockpicking 20 (+5 effectively)
Pickpocket 20 (+5 effectively)
Alchemy 20 (+5 effectively)
And I should just as well mention;
Elder Scrolls Online (original description)
Full manuals can be found here;
https://manuals.bethsoft.com
Notice the recurring theme of thievery and stealth.
Now your weird scattershot point is what exactly? That some secondary stats change from game to game? Yes, because each game tried to get the overall theme of the race as best they could with the systems they created for the game. But the themes stayed consistent even if the systems to recreate them changed. Now unlike you who just picked skills at random and pretended to make a point. Let's choose two non-wood elf races and see how their skills progressed from Morrowind through Skyrim.
Morrowind;
Orc - +10 Armorer, +5 Axe, +10 Block, +10 Heavy Armor, +10 Medium Armor
High Elf - +10 Alchemy, +5 Alteration, +5 Conjuration, +10 Destruction, +10 Enchant, +5 Illusion
Oblivion;
Orc - +10 Armorer, +10 Block, +10 Blunt, +5 Hand-to-hand, +10 Heavy Armor
High Elf - +5 Alchemy, +10 Alteration, +5 Conjuration, +10 Destruction, +5 Illusion, Mysticism +10
Skyrim;
Orc +5 Smithing, +10 Heavy Armor, +5 Block, +5 Two-Handed, +5 One-Handed, +5 Enchanting (I will admit that's an odd one for them to have. But I guess it's meant to reinforce their crafting mastery.)
High Elf - +10 Illusion, +5 Conjuration, +5 Destruction, + 5 Restoration, +5 Alteration, +5 Enchanting
Again adherence to a theme. Orcs are brawny warriors who like heavy armor, shields, and weapon/armor crafting. And high elves, masters of magic.
Suddenly, Orcs don't like using shields and favor melee over tanking. Now High Elves have weird off spec bonuses that come out of nowhere. And Wood Elves are guards instead of thieves (because remember only other players use stealth, not the "creatures" they are supposed to be tracking in Valenwood).
I don’t think you get the point of —> the devs can do whatever they want with the lore, if you’re going to get mad or annoyed about lore changing then eso and elder scrolls isn’t for you. This isn’t exclusive to this game or dev, Bethesda has done it and done it with Fallout. All they do is change lore and make up something to justify it.
I never said they aren’t thieves either. I only gave their description. You guys are the ones dismissing my points, I never dismissed a single point, I said you guys are leaving out lore. Sure stealth is a defining trait but so is speed, one got sacrificed for the other.
Even if we are counting both stealth and speed as defining traits, stealth detect has nothing to do with either of those.
Stealth detect in regards to what ? Being detected or doing the detection? Because bosmer are known for being scouts too.
Beyond that, detecting others in stealth is worthless outside of PvP, so that part of the passive is useless for many players. Bosmer can't be scouts if there's nothing for them to scout (stealthed enemies to reveal)
But that's the whole reason why you have the second part of the passive, isn't it?
Is it? Armor Pen is a PvP stat. Normal PvE players should be armor pen capped. Having "Bonus" armor pen is not needed in trials unless you have a very bad build.
The speed/roll combo might be ok in some situations IF you don't already have the passive that gives you a speed boost anyway. But DON"T USE A ROLL TO GET EXTRA ARMOR PEN IN A TRIAL OR DUNGEON. The roll should be used for getting out of danger not as a dps boost as it is a MAJOR stamina drain.
Here is what Alcast says about PvE Stamina races.
Stamina Damage Dealer
Best choice: Orc, Redguard, Dark Elf, Kahjiit
As a stamina damage dealer Orcs have the best stats, followed up by races like Redguards, Dark Elves and Khajiits. All are viable choices, so you can pick whichever race you like the most.
https://alcasthq.com/eso-race-guide-elder-scrolls-online/
Notice Wood Elves are not mentioned because their stats are not meant for PvE.
In fact in the Tank, Healer, Magicka, and Stamina dps race suggestions for PvE, Wood Elf is not mentioned as a choice for any of them.
While I agree with the points you are making, I am pretty convinced that Alcast just forgot to add Woodelfs initially and didn't bother to add it since. There are plenty of things he never updated in his builds, which bother me every time I come across them.
As an example, take this *** joke from his page. "Bosmer racial passives have a strong focus on stealth based gameplay style." I wonder what game he is playing.
Or another example, he updates a build to recommend Tzogvin's, but then keeps the Psijic skill for Minor Force in his bar and talks about Rearming trap when explaining the rotation.
Not to bash on him, it's good he updates things at all and makes comprehensive builds that go into so much detail.
Valid observations. I am not going to argue with any of it. But really I don't know of a better site to get info either.
I had a really long day, (6 hours of driving through extremely heavy rains) and I had 45+ email notifications waiting for me from this thread alone. I don't really have the energy for this right now. I am going to go play easy mode skyrim with a bosmer that has proper racials, until I just fall asleep completely.
Blue.... pretty sure you will check in here a few times a day. Turn off that email notification spam. You don't need it. Enjoy that real bosmer gameplay, and then get some sleep.
Thanks! It was nice playing Skyrim last night with the proper Wood Elf passives. I forgot how pleasing bow combat is with that nice kill noise on a hit. I stayed up much too late playing.
5 -
Sylvermynx✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭It was nice playing Skyrim last night with Wood Elf proper passives. I forgot how pleasing bow combat is with that nice kill noise on a hit.Sylvermynx wrote: »JayAstrophel wrote: »CatchMeTrolling wrote: »JayAstrophel wrote: »CatchMeTrolling wrote: »CatchMeTrolling wrote: »Cundu_Ertur wrote: »
Sorcs can and do command pets. Bosmer don't because that was an active ability, not a passive, and there are no active abilities.CatchMeTrolling wrote: »We can’t command pets, orcs arent in Cyrodiil raging, High elf’s aren’t weak to magic, Bretons don’t absorb magic, argonians stealth/assassin history is irrelevant in the game etc.
High Elves weren't weak to magic in Skyrim.
Bretons' absorb magic ability was an active one in Skyrim, and there are no active abilities, and did not exist before that. If you mean their resistance to magic, they have that now.
Orcs ARE in Cyrodiil raging, especially if you are AD or EP.
And you haven't noticed but several of us, myself included, have called for Dunmer and Argonians to have a bonus to hiding as well, since they have consistently been 'second tier' thieves behind Bosmer and Khajiit. So we are well aware of that.
So of the things you mentioned, not one is relevant or equivalent.
There is not one single sliver of evidence for Bosmer ever having any kind of counter stealth ability while there is significant evidence for Bosmer being stealthy.
They removed lore for not lore. And that's fact.
edit to add: I notice that you ignored my question. Demonstrate what thief ability Bosmeri have a bonus to now.
Thanks, so to sum it up is the lore , passives and abilities can change from game to game?. Glad we figured that out on our own.
Let’s see:
Oblivion- High Elf Disease Resistance ability: Resist Disease 75% on Self, constant
High Elf Elemental Weakness ability: Weakness to Fire, Frost & Shock 25% on Self, constant
Skyrim - Resist Poison: Your Redguard blood gives you 50% resistance to poison.
Oblivion: Resist Poison 75% – Passive
Resist Disease 75% – Passive
Oblivion- Orc - Resist Magicka 25%
Skyrim - Weakness to Cold- Argonians become colder 25% faster in cold environments.
And yes I ignored it because you’re not getting that passives can change whenever the devs feel like they want to change them. Just look at the examples above. You guys are annoyed by something the series has been doing.
I see you have not mastered the art of google-fu.
First let me repost what I wrote to you in the other thread.
OK Here are the wood elf descriptions from most of the games.
(Hopefully I got the order correct.)
Elder Scrolls 1 Arena
Thieves...hmmm.
Elder Scrolls 2 Daggerfall
Thieves again...
Elder Scrolls 3 Morrowind
Skill Bonuses
Marksman +15
Sneak +10
Light Armor +10
Alchemy +5
Acrobatics +5
Elder scrolls 4 Oblivion
Skill Bonuses
Acrobatics +5
Alchemy +10
Alteration +5
Light Armor +5
Marksman +10
Sneak +10
Elder Scrolls 5 Skyrim
Skill Bonuses (Base level is 15)
Archery 25 (+10 effectively)
Light Armor 20 (+5 effectively)
Sneak 20 (+5 effectively)
Lockpicking 20 (+5 effectively)
Pickpocket 20 (+5 effectively)
Alchemy 20 (+5 effectively)
And I should just as well mention;
Elder Scrolls Online (original description)
Full manuals can be found here;
https://manuals.bethsoft.com
Notice the recurring theme of thievery and stealth.
Now your weird scattershot point is what exactly? That some secondary stats change from game to game? Yes, because each game tried to get the overall theme of the race as best they could with the systems they created for the game. But the themes stayed consistent even if the systems to recreate them changed. Now unlike you who just picked skills at random and pretended to make a point. Let's choose two non-wood elf races and see how their skills progressed from Morrowind through Skyrim.
Morrowind;
Orc - +10 Armorer, +5 Axe, +10 Block, +10 Heavy Armor, +10 Medium Armor
High Elf - +10 Alchemy, +5 Alteration, +5 Conjuration, +10 Destruction, +10 Enchant, +5 Illusion
Oblivion;
Orc - +10 Armorer, +10 Block, +10 Blunt, +5 Hand-to-hand, +10 Heavy Armor
High Elf - +5 Alchemy, +10 Alteration, +5 Conjuration, +10 Destruction, +5 Illusion, Mysticism +10
Skyrim;
Orc +5 Smithing, +10 Heavy Armor, +5 Block, +5 Two-Handed, +5 One-Handed, +5 Enchanting (I will admit that's an odd one for them to have. But I guess it's meant to reinforce their crafting mastery.)
High Elf - +10 Illusion, +5 Conjuration, +5 Destruction, + 5 Restoration, +5 Alteration, +5 Enchanting
Again adherence to a theme. Orcs are brawny warriors who like heavy armor, shields, and weapon/armor crafting. And high elves, masters of magic.
Suddenly, Orcs don't like using shields and favor melee over tanking. Now High Elves have weird off spec bonuses that come out of nowhere. And Wood Elves are guards instead of thieves (because remember only other players use stealth, not the "creatures" they are supposed to be tracking in Valenwood).
I don’t think you get the point of —> the devs can do whatever they want with the lore, if you’re going to get mad or annoyed about lore changing then eso and elder scrolls isn’t for you. This isn’t exclusive to this game or dev, Bethesda has done it and done it with Fallout. All they do is change lore and make up something to justify it.
I never said they aren’t thieves either. I only gave their description. You guys are the ones dismissing my points, I never dismissed a single point, I said you guys are leaving out lore. Sure stealth is a defining trait but so is speed, one got sacrificed for the other.
Even if we are counting both stealth and speed as defining traits, stealth detect has nothing to do with either of those.
Stealth detect in regards to what ? Being detected or doing the detection? Because bosmer are known for being scouts too.
Beyond that, detecting others in stealth is worthless outside of PvP, so that part of the passive is useless for many players. Bosmer can't be scouts if there's nothing for them to scout (stealthed enemies to reveal)
But that's the whole reason why you have the second part of the passive, isn't it?
Is it? Armor Pen is a PvP stat. Normal PvE players should be armor pen capped. Having "Bonus" armor pen is not needed in trials unless you have a very bad build.
The speed/roll combo might be ok in some situations IF you don't already have the passive that gives you a speed boost anyway. But DON"T USE A ROLL TO GET EXTRA ARMOR PEN IN A TRIAL OR DUNGEON. The roll should be used for getting out of danger not as a dps boost as it is a MAJOR stamina drain.
Here is what Alcast says about PvE Stamina races.
Stamina Damage Dealer
Best choice: Orc, Redguard, Dark Elf, Kahjiit
As a stamina damage dealer Orcs have the best stats, followed up by races like Redguards, Dark Elves and Khajiits. All are viable choices, so you can pick whichever race you like the most.
https://alcasthq.com/eso-race-guide-elder-scrolls-online/
Notice Wood Elves are not mentioned because their stats are not meant for PvE.
In fact in the Tank, Healer, Magicka, and Stamina dps race suggestions for PvE, Wood Elf is not mentioned as a choice for any of them.
While I agree with the points you are making, I am pretty convinced that Alcast just forgot to add Woodelfs initially and didn't bother to add it since. There are plenty of things he never updated in his builds, which bother me every time I come across them.
As an example, take this *** joke from his page. "Bosmer racial passives have a strong focus on stealth based gameplay style." I wonder what game he is playing.
Or another example, he updates a build to recommend Tzogvin's, but then keeps the Psijic skill for Minor Force in his bar and talks about Rearming trap when explaining the rotation.
Not to bash on him, it's good he updates things at all and makes comprehensive builds that go into so much detail.
Valid observations. I am not going to argue with any of it. But really I don't know of a better site to get info either.
I had a really long day, (6 hours of driving through extremely heavy rains) and I had 45+ email notifications waiting for me from this thread alone. I don't really have the energy for this right now. I am going to go play easy mode skyrim with a bosmer that has proper racials, until I just fall asleep completely.
Blue.... pretty sure you will check in here a few times a day. Turn off that email notification spam. You don't need it. Enjoy that real bosmer gameplay, and then get some sleep.
Thanks! It was nice playing Skyrim last night with the proper Wood Elf passives. I forgot how pleasing bow combat is with that nice kill noise on a hit. I stayed up much too late playing.
I'm sure it was! I got my stealth archer fix while I was waiting for my new internet dish over Memorial Day weekend. Good ol' Skyrim!3 -
Cundu_Ertur✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭How is this thread still going? 83 pages and 4 months later...
Until it is fixed.
edit to add: thanks for the bump and additional post!
Don't worry seraph, I won't forget to thank you for padding our stats even more. Thanks!Edited by Cundu_Ertur on June 19, 2019 10:41PMTaking stealth away from the Bosmer is like taking magic away from the Altmer, making Nords allergic to mead, or making Orcs pretty.9 -
Seraphayel✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Cundu_Ertur wrote: »Don't worry seraph, I won't forget to thank you for padding our stats even more. Thanks!
You can count on me from time to time to point out to you how pointless this thread is. I always do my best and am happy to help you out!PS5EUAldmeri Dominion- Khajiit Arcanist -1 -
Ratzkifal✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭So, back to Hunter's Eye and stealth and stealth systems.
Earlier we talked about the "detection area reduction" from the medium armor skills , which is clearly identifiable as being the same thing as stealth given the context. We touched on how Ledgerdemain feels bad to level. In Skyrim, sneak would level up while moving around NPCs and remaining hidden. For the sake of argument, let's assume this is impossible to implement in ESO.
How else could a potential reworked ledgerdemain be skilled without facing the same issues as the current one?
Since ZOS stated that one of their future goals was to open up stealth to everyone, we can also think about how traditionally stealthy races engage differently with that system. My idea would be that they could gain experience faster or retain passives that further add on top of the boni of that system, as they do now.Edited by Ratzkifal on June 19, 2019 11:57PMThis Bosmer was tortured to death. There is nothing left to be done.2 -
BlueRaven✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭So, back to Hunter's Eye and stealth and stealth systems.
Earlier we talked about the "detection area reduction" from the medium armor skills , which is clearly identifiable as being the same thing as stealth given the context. We touched on how Ledgerdemain feels bad to level. In Skyrim, sneak would level up while moving around NPCs and remaining hidden. For the sake of argument, let's assume this is impossible to implement in ESO.
How else could a potential reworked ledgerdemain be skilled without facing the same issues as the current one?
I feel ledgemain is the wrong "tree" to put it in.
First, it feels odd changing an already established tree that works for what it is.
And second I feel stealth can be dynamic enough to warrant its own tree.
As for leveling it. that's tricky.
The engine does not support the Skyrim way of being in stealth within a detect range on an enemy to level. So I think the best way to level it is to attack a target from stealth (not necessarily killing it by the way). I think doing this in PvP can award a bit more experience as starting fights in stealth there can be less common. Add on top of this a slight cool down on how often it can happen so people don't spam mud crabs to level it.2 -
Jaraal✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭So, back to Hunter's Eye and stealth and stealth systems.
Earlier we talked about the "detection area reduction" from the medium armor skills , which is clearly identifiable as being the same thing as stealth given the context. We touched on how Ledgerdemain feels bad to level. In Skyrim, sneak would level up while moving around NPCs and remaining hidden. For the sake of argument, let's assume this is impossible to implement in ESO.
How else could a potential reworked ledgerdemain be skilled without facing the same issues as the current one?
Since ZOS stated that one of their future goals was to open up stealth to everyone, we can also think about how traditionally stealthy races engage differently with that system. My idea would be that they could gain experience faster or retain passives that further add on top of the boni of that system, as they do now.
If it's open to everyone, then Imperials will still be stealthier than Bosmer.
I started this game selecting a Bosmer, because I have always played the stealthy/rogue/archer/assassin character in fantasy games, including TES games. I, for one, would not be interested in a system where I have to wear a virtual name tag on my chest that says, "Hi, I'm a Bosmer! And I chose to be stealthy!" I'd rather people just look at me and know that I'm stealthy because everybody knows I'm supposed to be stealthy.2 -
Ratzkifal✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭So, back to Hunter's Eye and stealth and stealth systems.
Earlier we talked about the "detection area reduction" from the medium armor skills , which is clearly identifiable as being the same thing as stealth given the context. We touched on how Ledgerdemain feels bad to level. In Skyrim, sneak would level up while moving around NPCs and remaining hidden. For the sake of argument, let's assume this is impossible to implement in ESO.
How else could a potential reworked ledgerdemain be skilled without facing the same issues as the current one?
Since ZOS stated that one of their future goals was to open up stealth to everyone, we can also think about how traditionally stealthy races engage differently with that system. My idea would be that they could gain experience faster or retain passives that further add on top of the boni of that system, as they do now.
If it's open to everyone, then Imperials will still be stealthier than Bosmer.
I started this game selecting a Bosmer, because I have always played the stealthy/rogue/archer/assassin character in fantasy games, including TES games. I, for one, would not be interested in a system where I have to wear a virtual name tag on my chest that says, "Hi, I'm a Bosmer! And I chose to be stealthy!" I'd rather people just look at me and know that I'm stealthy because everybody knows I'm supposed to be stealthy.
No, it won't. Not if it's designed the right way with stealthy races in mind. So suppose for the discussion that Bosmer get the stealth radius or another bonus to stealth in their racial passives.
I was just thinking that stealth could get a new system of specialization, possibly moving all boni to radius into that new system, to allow more freedom for racial passives and item sets related to stealth. The radius is simply too good to pass up, so other boni are never even considered, which is sad. If everyone had access to them, given a certain investment, then giving Bosmer 20% reduced sneak cost or 10% increased sneak speed (not exceeding unsneaked speed) could actually be worth while, because you wouldn't have to worry about getting as much radius reduction as possible.
I feel like @BlueRaven's suggestion has the potential to become like the fighter's guild skill. I feel it is leveled way too easily and pretty much on accident for the purpose that this is trying to serve. It would lead to everyone being stealthy, which is not how it should be. If you want to be stealthy, then you should actively try to get there, like with the Thieves guild and Dark Brotherhood skills.
Having it be passively leveled without actively seeking to level it, similar to the fighter's guild, can only work if the new system has three mutually exclusive paths to choose from. One would be stealth, one would be counter-stealth and the last one would have to be neither and still offer something worthwhile. If it was just stealth and guard, then we'd run the risk of everyone being stealthy in PvE and guard being BiS in PvP for anyone who isn't a ganker. That would be boring imo, so the third option would have to be just as juicy and make for "the common folk" without being mandadory because the highend meta demands it. Unfortunately I can't come up with a third one that is as enticing without being OP, so that's why I believe the skill line / system needs to be handled more like the grindy-but-fun guild type of skills.This Bosmer was tortured to death. There is nothing left to be done.1 -
BlueRaven✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭So, back to Hunter's Eye and stealth and stealth systems.
Earlier we talked about the "detection area reduction" from the medium armor skills , which is clearly identifiable as being the same thing as stealth given the context. We touched on how Ledgerdemain feels bad to level. In Skyrim, sneak would level up while moving around NPCs and remaining hidden. For the sake of argument, let's assume this is impossible to implement in ESO.
How else could a potential reworked ledgerdemain be skilled without facing the same issues as the current one?
Since ZOS stated that one of their future goals was to open up stealth to everyone, we can also think about how traditionally stealthy races engage differently with that system. My idea would be that they could gain experience faster or retain passives that further add on top of the boni of that system, as they do now.
If it's open to everyone, then Imperials will still be stealthier than Bosmer.
I started this game selecting a Bosmer, because I have always played the stealthy/rogue/archer/assassin character in fantasy games, including TES games. I, for one, would not be interested in a system where I have to wear a virtual name tag on my chest that says, "Hi, I'm a Bosmer! And I chose to be stealthy!" I'd rather people just look at me and know that I'm stealthy because everybody knows I'm supposed to be stealthy.
No, it won't. Not if it's designed the right way with stealthy races in mind. So suppose for the discussion that Bosmer get the stealth radius or another bonus to stealth in their racial passives.
I was just thinking that stealth could get a new system of specialization, possibly moving all boni to radius into that new system, to allow more freedom for racial passives and item sets related to stealth. The radius is simply too good to pass up, so other boni are never even considered, which is sad. If everyone had access to them, given a certain investment, then giving Bosmer 20% reduced sneak cost or 10% increased sneak speed (not exceeding unsneaked speed) could actually be worth while, because you wouldn't have to worry about getting as much radius reduction as possible.
I feel like @BlueRaven's suggestion has the potential to become like the fighter's guild skill. I feel it is leveled way too easily and pretty much on accident for the purpose that this is trying to serve. It would lead to everyone being stealthy, which is not how it should be. If you want to be stealthy, then you should actively try to get there, like with the Thieves guild and Dark Brotherhood skills.
Having it be passively leveled without actively seeking to level it, similar to the fighter's guild, can only work if the new system has three mutually exclusive paths to choose from. One would be stealth, one would be counter-stealth and the last one would have to be neither and still offer something worthwhile. If it was just stealth and guard, then we'd run the risk of everyone being stealthy in PvE and guard being BiS in PvP for anyone who isn't a ganker. That would be boring imo, so the third option would have to be just as juicy and make for "the common folk" without being mandadory because the highend meta demands it. Unfortunately I can't come up with a third one that is as enticing without being OP, so that's why I believe the skill line / system needs to be handled more like the grindy-but-fun guild type of skills.
Well there is a third and fourth thing that can be added to the tree,. speed while stealthed and a stealth cost reduction. And things like time to get into stealth can be decreased I guess.
A damage mitigation passive could be added, "If stealth is broken, reduce incoming damage by x% for (insert time)".
Also a way around the "Imperials will always be better" problem is that the tree would not stack with the racial passives. (Which feels inelegant, but would solve a lot of problems.)
Leveling through "scouting" type quests and dallies would be fun. And possibly instanced areas like the assassins and thieves guild dungeons?
EDIT: I just realized the "scouting" missions in Cyrodiil would be a perfect template for the type of daily that can be used for this.
Edited by BlueRaven on June 20, 2019 2:12AM0 -
HowTaoBrownCow✭✭✭So, back to Hunter's Eye and stealth and stealth systems.
Earlier we talked about the "detection area reduction" from the medium armor skills , which is clearly identifiable as being the same thing as stealth given the context. We touched on how Ledgerdemain feels bad to level. In Skyrim, sneak would level up while moving around NPCs and remaining hidden. For the sake of argument, let's assume this is impossible to implement in ESO.
How else could a potential reworked ledgerdemain be skilled without facing the same issues as the current one?
Since ZOS stated that one of their future goals was to open up stealth to everyone, we can also think about how traditionally stealthy races engage differently with that system. My idea would be that they could gain experience faster or retain passives that further add on top of the boni of that system, as they do now.
I don't have a problem with Legerdemain as it is, because it's about sleight-of-hand -- lockpicking and pocket picking -- and you level it by doing those things. Of course, they've blurred it a bit into a kind of catch-all Thievery skill, so you also level it by selling to a fence, and some of the passives relate to that (and one to stealth's stamina costs). I suppose you could bundle those *and* stealth into a broader Subterfuge skill -- and I call it Subterfuge rather than Thievery (a) to avoid confusion with the Thieves Guild tree and (b) because sneaking up to backstab a troll in the woods isn't thieving.
The thing is, I was looking back at those Wood Elf descriptions across the different Elder Scrolls games, and two things stood out to me. The first was that the broad race descriptions were about Bosmer being good at Thievery generally (and not specifically stealth), and the second was that they got a boost to their starting Sneak skill line.
The thing is, that initial boost is what a bog-basic Bosmer gets. Your average, run-of-the-mill Bosmer has better Sneak than the average Nord or Altmer -- but those other races can focus on Sneak and level their Sneak skill to become as good or better. And a Bosmer who specializes in Sneak will start out better, but at the end of a bunch of adventurers as they become a Master Thief, they're not especially better at Sneak than a Nord Master Thief. They just maybe got there a little faster. This was actually one of the cool things about those games -- you could be anyone and do anything, but the lore was embodied in the starting boost you got as you got the ball rolling.
With that in mind, maybe the solution is to give Bosmer and Khajiit a boost to Legerdemain experience gain, similar to the boost that the different races get with weapon skill lines. Similar to the Sneak skill in previous games and the weapon skill xp boosts in ESO, that boost wouldn't matter anymore once a player has maxed a skill, but it would start them out higher and that would continue to support the lore that Bosmer and Khajiit are better at these things -- while still meeting ZOS's stated goal of making the stealth boosts accessible to more players. (And leveling Legerdemain takes work, it's not just a "I ran dolmens for 5 hours and now I've maxed out the skill!")
(Optionally, you could add also more stealth boosts to the Legerdemain line, like a passive for reducing stealth detection radius similar to what medium armor provides, and/or a passive for increasing stealth speed. I'd like to see those, but they're secondary.)
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