Wood Elf/ Bosmer losing stealth passive, An open letter.

Uryel

Ashryn wrote: »

Indeed...I'm STILL livid with the stealth changes to Bosmer and the poison resistance changes for the Argonians! I roll with most changes and adapt, but this is so egregious, it leaves a bad taste in the mouth!

Same. I said I wouldn't spend a penny on future content, and didn't stick to it. I grabbed a few months of ESO+ to get Frostvault Chasm home and decorate it to my liking. Home decoration is basically my endgame. Also, got Elsweyr to play necromancer with my wife.

Seing how Elsweyr turned to be a steamling hot pile of dung from our point of view (Dragons are poorly animated and have no interaction with their environnment, Necromancers are currently broken AF and are unplayable, see this thread for reference https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/479549/stamina-necromancer-mount-synergies-buffs-issues ), and seeing that I now ONLY decorate houses when I log on... This is definetely the last time I spend money on that game. And this time, it will hold.

At least until they fix their sh*t. If they can't have some respect for their own lore, at the very least they shouldn't let the former lead of PvP team come anywhere close to it. Unfortunately, that's what we have now.

Cundu_Ertur

Uryel wrote: »

Ashryn wrote: »

Indeed...I'm STILL livid with the stealth changes to Bosmer and the poison resistance changes for the Argonians! I roll with most changes and adapt, but this is so egregious, it leaves a bad taste in the mouth!

Same. I said I wouldn't spend a penny on future content, and didn't stick to it. I grabbed a few months of ESO+ to get Frostvault Chasm home and decorate it to my liking. Home decoration is basically my endgame. Also, got Elsweyr to play necromancer with my wife.

Seing how Elsweyr turned to be a steamling hot pile of dung from our point of view (Dragons are poorly animated and have no interaction with their environnment, Necromancers are currently broken AF and are unplayable, see this thread for reference https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/479549/stamina-necromancer-mount-synergies-buffs-issues ), and seeing that I now ONLY decorate houses when I log on... This is definetely the last time I spend money on that game. And this time, it will hold.

At least until they fix their sh*t. If they can't have some respect for their own lore, at the very least they shouldn't let the former lead of PvP team come anywhere close to it. Unfortunately, that's what we have now.

I'm not looking forward to when my plus runs out, losing the craft bag is going to suck.
But, until this is fixed I guess no craft bag for me.

Ratzkifal

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Uryel wrote: »

Ashryn wrote: »

Indeed...I'm STILL livid with the stealth changes to Bosmer and the poison resistance changes for the Argonians! I roll with most changes and adapt, but this is so egregious, it leaves a bad taste in the mouth!

Same. I said I wouldn't spend a penny on future content, and didn't stick to it. I grabbed a few months of ESO+ to get Frostvault Chasm home and decorate it to my liking. Home decoration is basically my endgame. Also, got Elsweyr to play necromancer with my wife.

Seing how Elsweyr turned to be a steamling hot pile of dung from our point of view (Dragons are poorly animated and have no interaction with their environnment, Necromancers are currently broken AF and are unplayable, see this thread for reference https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/479549/stamina-necromancer-mount-synergies-buffs-issues ), and seeing that I now ONLY decorate houses when I log on... This is definetely the last time I spend money on that game. And this time, it will hold.

At least until they fix their sh*t. If they can't have some respect for their own lore, at the very least they shouldn't let the former lead of PvP team come anywhere close to it. Unfortunately, that's what we have now.

I'm not looking forward to when my plus runs out, losing the craft bag is going to suck.
But, until this is fixed I guess no craft bag for me.

You should consider taking skills out of your hirelings for the time. Or you start selling mats in guild stores. If you want something crafted, rather than crafting it yourself, let a friend do it for you with the mats from your inventory and not your craft bag. You can also send mails to trusted friends and have them return them to you. That way you get 6 extra inventory slots per mail. If you keep that up and don't pick up and decon everything you find, you'll be able to bridge the gap between ESO+ free trials. And since you don't get any bonus for having active ESO+ during a free trial anymore, you won't even have to buy it then.

Keep up the fight for the rite! You can do it, I believe in you and so do all the nonstealthy Bosmer out there!

Cundu_Ertur

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Uryel wrote: »

Ashryn wrote: »

Indeed...I'm STILL livid with the stealth changes to Bosmer and the poison resistance changes for the Argonians! I roll with most changes and adapt, but this is so egregious, it leaves a bad taste in the mouth!

Same. I said I wouldn't spend a penny on future content, and didn't stick to it. I grabbed a few months of ESO+ to get Frostvault Chasm home and decorate it to my liking. Home decoration is basically my endgame. Also, got Elsweyr to play necromancer with my wife.

Seing how Elsweyr turned to be a steamling hot pile of dung from our point of view (Dragons are poorly animated and have no interaction with their environnment, Necromancers are currently broken AF and are unplayable, see this thread for reference https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/479549/stamina-necromancer-mount-synergies-buffs-issues ), and seeing that I now ONLY decorate houses when I log on... This is definetely the last time I spend money on that game. And this time, it will hold.

At least until they fix their sh*t. If they can't have some respect for their own lore, at the very least they shouldn't let the former lead of PvP team come anywhere close to it. Unfortunately, that's what we have now.

I'm not looking forward to when my plus runs out, losing the craft bag is going to suck.
But, until this is fixed I guess no craft bag for me.

You should consider taking skills out of your hirelings for the time. Or you start selling mats in guild stores. If you want something crafted, rather than crafting it yourself, let a friend do it for you with the mats from your inventory and not your craft bag. You can also send mails to trusted friends and have them return them to you. That way you get 6 extra inventory slots per mail. If you keep that up and don't pick up and decon everything you find, you'll be able to bridge the gap between ESO+ free trials. And since you don't get any bonus for having active ESO+ during a free trial anymore, you won't even have to buy it then.

Keep up the fight for the rite! You can do it, I believe in you and so do all the nonstealthy Bosmer out there!

I'll just put mats on mules. That's what I did before. I even have space for an additional mule. I just need to clear out some motifs/recipes I want to sell and place the furniture that's stacked up in bank right now.

Marginis

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Marginis wrote: »

I may be in the minority but I think the stealth passive was just redundant. Perhaps Bosmer need something better than what ZOS gave them with the last racial passive changes, but I still like the idea that it's something unique to them.

Then take all magicka bonus from Altmer and Dunmer, it's redundant with Bretons. Take all weapon bonuses from every race but Orcs, it's redundant. Take all stamina bonuses from every race but Redguards, it's redundant.

Having one, and only one, race with bonuses to magic is obviously silly; having one, and only one, race with bonuses to combat is equally silly. How is it not just as silly to have one, and only one, race with any bonus to thieving?

You're way oversimplifying. Altmer have higher magicka power than any other race, where bretons have historically focused on recovery or resistance to magicka, and Dunmer in ESO have a niche of getting bonuses to both magicka and stamina where the other races focus more on one or the other. Saying they're all the same because they all give magicka bonuses is like saying Redguards and Orcs are the same because they both give stamina bonuses. Give Bosmer something unique having to do with stealth, instead of just giving them the exact same stealth bonus as Khajiit because you personally want that bonus back.

What I was saying is not that their detection is the best way to accomplish this, but the theory is in my opinion solid. Give them a unique crit or flanking bonus, and make the Khajiit stealth passive more unique to thieving or something, as an example. It doesn't mean we need to scrap everything and just go back to the way things were just because the current Bosmer passive isn't the most applicable to your playstyle or the current meta. Who knows, maybe some players really like having another tool to stop those nightblade gankers in PVP.

Tigerseye

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Uryel wrote: »

Ashryn wrote: »

Indeed...I'm STILL livid with the stealth changes to Bosmer and the poison resistance changes for the Argonians! I roll with most changes and adapt, but this is so egregious, it leaves a bad taste in the mouth!

Same. I said I wouldn't spend a penny on future content, and didn't stick to it. I grabbed a few months of ESO+ to get Frostvault Chasm home and decorate it to my liking. Home decoration is basically my endgame. Also, got Elsweyr to play necromancer with my wife.

Seing how Elsweyr turned to be a steamling hot pile of dung from our point of view (Dragons are poorly animated and have no interaction with their environnment, Necromancers are currently broken AF and are unplayable, see this thread for reference https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/479549/stamina-necromancer-mount-synergies-buffs-issues ), and seeing that I now ONLY decorate houses when I log on... This is definetely the last time I spend money on that game. And this time, it will hold.

At least until they fix their sh*t. If they can't have some respect for their own lore, at the very least they shouldn't let the former lead of PvP team come anywhere close to it. Unfortunately, that's what we have now.

I'm not looking forward to when my plus runs out, losing the craft bag is going to suck.
But, until this is fixed I guess no craft bag for me.

You should consider taking skills out of your hirelings for the time. Or you start selling mats in guild stores. If you want something crafted, rather than crafting it yourself, let a friend do it for you with the mats from your inventory and not your craft bag. You can also send mails to trusted friends and have them return them to you. That way you get 6 extra inventory slots per mail. If you keep that up and don't pick up and decon everything you find, you'll be able to bridge the gap between ESO+ free trials. And since you don't get any bonus for having active ESO+ during a free trial anymore, you won't even have to buy it then.

Keep up the fight for the rite! You can do it, I believe in you and so do all the nonstealthy Bosmer out there!

Ugh, I'd rather just quit, if things are that bad.

Ratzkifal

Marginis wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Marginis wrote: »

I may be in the minority but I think the stealth passive was just redundant. Perhaps Bosmer need something better than what ZOS gave them with the last racial passive changes, but I still like the idea that it's something unique to them.

Then take all magicka bonus from Altmer and Dunmer, it's redundant with Bretons. Take all weapon bonuses from every race but Orcs, it's redundant. Take all stamina bonuses from every race but Redguards, it's redundant.

Having one, and only one, race with bonuses to magic is obviously silly; having one, and only one, race with bonuses to combat is equally silly. How is it not just as silly to have one, and only one, race with any bonus to thieving?

You're way oversimplifying. Altmer have higher magicka power than any other race, where bretons have historically focused on recovery or resistance to magicka, and Dunmer in ESO have a niche of getting bonuses to both magicka and stamina where the other races focus more on one or the other. Saying they're all the same because they all give magicka bonuses is like saying Redguards and Orcs are the same because they both give stamina bonuses. Give Bosmer something unique having to do with stealth, instead of just giving them the exact same stealth bonus as Khajiit because you personally want that bonus back.

What I was saying is not that their detection is the best way to accomplish this, but the theory is in my opinion solid. Give them a unique crit or flanking bonus, and make the Khajiit stealth passive more unique to thieving or something, as an example. It doesn't mean we need to scrap everything and just go back to the way things were just because the current Bosmer passive isn't the most applicable to your playstyle or the current meta. Who knows, maybe some players really like having another tool to stop those nightblade gankers in PVP.

@Marginis I don't think that's an oversimplification at all. This is exactly what was done. We had two stealth races before, now we only have one and one that's accidentally a bit better at sneaking (Imperial).
If ZOS gave us anything actively stealth related, say reduced sneak cost, we'd already be happy, because they acknowledge the series' lore.
Or at least we'd be happier than now. In ESO, stealth radius is the single most important stat for being a sneaky character. Sneak speed comes second and sneak cost comes in third. Give us any of those and we won't have to make an extra gear or vampirism investment. They can easily change it like that without hurting dps charts while adding flavor and keeping the "uniqueness" that ZOS praises so much.

ZOS had the option to give any of those passives to Bosmer instead of detection. That is the main problem. Bosmer are supposedly one of the most naturally gifted sneaks in Tamriel and racial passives should reflect that if stealth is a thing that exists in ESO. If the racial passives don't reflect the lore, then they are arbitrary and have no reason for being in the first place. They replaced being better at hiding with nothing. And yes, detection is nothing, even in PvP. I can explain that to you in detail if you want. But it should also not be glossed over the fact that one of the goals ZOS stated was that the passives should become more universally applicable and a passive that is only good in PvP and serves ABSOLUTELY NO PURPOSE in PvE is not what I would call "universally applicable".
We are not mad because the meta shifted away from out builds, we are mad because ZOS kicked 25 years of lore in the dirt and balanced against player expectations. That is why this is comparable. If you choose an Altmer to be good at magic because the lore says so, and then ZOS takes magic away from them completely, then you have every right to be upset and demand it back.

Koronach

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Uryel wrote: »

Ashryn wrote: »

Indeed...I'm STILL livid with the stealth changes to Bosmer and the poison resistance changes for the Argonians! I roll with most changes and adapt, but this is so egregious, it leaves a bad taste in the mouth!

Same. I said I wouldn't spend a penny on future content, and didn't stick to it. I grabbed a few months of ESO+ to get Frostvault Chasm home and decorate it to my liking. Home decoration is basically my endgame. Also, got Elsweyr to play necromancer with my wife.

Seing how Elsweyr turned to be a steamling hot pile of dung from our point of view (Dragons are poorly animated and have no interaction with their environnment, Necromancers are currently broken AF and are unplayable, see this thread for reference https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/479549/stamina-necromancer-mount-synergies-buffs-issues ), and seeing that I now ONLY decorate houses when I log on... This is definetely the last time I spend money on that game. And this time, it will hold.

At least until they fix their sh*t. If they can't have some respect for their own lore, at the very least they shouldn't let the former lead of PvP team come anywhere close to it. Unfortunately, that's what we have now.

I'm not looking forward to when my plus runs out, losing the craft bag is going to suck.
But, until this is fixed I guess no craft bag for me.

I wasn't either but I knew back around the passive changes I wouldn't like any of the others. So I canceled plus and I'm glad I did as I got hit with every nerf for my race/class combo. I just send my crafting items to my uxith-beeko since I have that luxury. If anything I miss the extra bank spaces with all these log in rewards that I don't want to get rid of like mount books.

Marginis wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Marginis wrote: »

I may be in the minority but I think the stealth passive was just redundant. Perhaps Bosmer need something better than what ZOS gave them with the last racial passive changes, but I still like the idea that it's something unique to them.

Then take all magicka bonus from Altmer and Dunmer, it's redundant with Bretons. Take all weapon bonuses from every race but Orcs, it's redundant. Take all stamina bonuses from every race but Redguards, it's redundant.

Having one, and only one, race with bonuses to magic is obviously silly; having one, and only one, race with bonuses to combat is equally silly. How is it not just as silly to have one, and only one, race with any bonus to thieving?

You're way oversimplifying. Altmer have higher magicka power than any other race, where bretons have historically focused on recovery or resistance to magicka, and Dunmer in ESO have a niche of getting bonuses to both magicka and stamina where the other races focus more on one or the other. Saying they're all the same because they all give magicka bonuses is like saying Redguards and Orcs are the same because they both give stamina bonuses. Give Bosmer something unique having to do with stealth, instead of just giving them the exact same stealth bonus as Khajiit because you personally want that bonus back.

What I was saying is not that their detection is the best way to accomplish this, but the theory is in my opinion solid. Give them a unique crit or flanking bonus, and make the Khajiit stealth passive more unique to thieving or something, as an example. It doesn't mean we need to scrap everything and just go back to the way things were just because the current Bosmer passive isn't the most applicable to your playstyle or the current meta. Who knows, maybe some players really like having another tool to stop those nightblade gankers in PVP.

If anyone is oversimplifying it's ZoS they are trying to make the passives like Skyrim but that won't work. You can't have one passive per race when you have lore IN ESO revolving around it. That's the whole point, they have in game lore for Bosmer to be more stealthy than Khajiit not to mention Bosmer has had the higher stealth bonus if every TES game. They have lore all over ESO stating Argonians are resistant to disease AND poison. You can't just cherry pick racials when you have lore in this very game stating otherwise.

Ogou

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Marginis wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Marginis wrote: »

I may be in the minority but I think the stealth passive was just redundant. Perhaps Bosmer need something better than what ZOS gave them with the last racial passive changes, but I still like the idea that it's something unique to them.

Then take all magicka bonus from Altmer and Dunmer, it's redundant with Bretons. Take all weapon bonuses from every race but Orcs, it's redundant. Take all stamina bonuses from every race but Redguards, it's redundant.

Having one, and only one, race with bonuses to magic is obviously silly; having one, and only one, race with bonuses to combat is equally silly. How is it not just as silly to have one, and only one, race with any bonus to thieving?

You're way oversimplifying. Altmer have higher magicka power than any other race, where bretons have historically focused on recovery or resistance to magicka, and Dunmer in ESO have a niche of getting bonuses to both magicka and stamina where the other races focus more on one or the other. Saying they're all the same because they all give magicka bonuses is like saying Redguards and Orcs are the same because they both give stamina bonuses. Give Bosmer something unique having to do with stealth, instead of just giving them the exact same stealth bonus as Khajiit because you personally want that bonus back.

What I was saying is not that their detection is the best way to accomplish this, but the theory is in my opinion solid. Give them a unique crit or flanking bonus, and make the Khajiit stealth passive more unique to thieving or something, as an example. It doesn't mean we need to scrap everything and just go back to the way things were just because the current Bosmer passive isn't the most applicable to your playstyle or the current meta. Who knows, maybe some players really like having another tool to stop those nightblade gankers in PVP.

@Marginis I don't think that's an oversimplification at all. This is exactly what was done. We had two stealth races before, now we only have one and one that's accidentally a bit better at sneaking (Imperial).
If ZOS gave us anything actively stealth related, say reduced sneak cost, we'd already be happy, because they acknowledge the series' lore.
Or at least we'd be happier than now. In ESO, stealth radius is the single most important stat for being a sneaky character. Sneak speed comes second and sneak cost comes in third. Give us any of those and we won't have to make an extra gear or vampirism investment. They can easily change it like that without hurting dps charts while adding flavor and keeping the "uniqueness" that ZOS praises so much.

ZOS had the option to give any of those passives to Bosmer instead of detection. That is the main problem. Bosmer are supposedly one of the most naturally gifted sneaks in Tamriel and racial passives should reflect that if stealth is a thing that exists in ESO. If the racial passives don't reflect the lore, then they are arbitrary and have no reason for being in the first place. They replaced being better at hiding with nothing. And yes, detection is nothing, even in PvP. I can explain that to you in detail if you want. But it should also not be glossed over the fact that one of the goals ZOS stated was that the passives should become more universally applicable and a passive that is only good in PvP and serves ABSOLUTELY NO PURPOSE in PvE is not what I would call "universally applicable".
We are not mad because the meta shifted away from out builds, we are mad because ZOS kicked 25 years of lore in the dirt and balanced against player expectations. That is why this is comparable. If you choose an Altmer to be good at magic because the lore says so, and then ZOS takes magic away from them completely, then you have every right to be upset and demand it back.

Just want to add that because the detect has no purpose is the reason you the second part of the Hunter's eye passive (the rolly poly part). So I'm pretty sure that from ZOS' point of view the "universally applicable" goal is achieved.

Koronach

Ogou wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Marginis wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Marginis wrote: »

I may be in the minority but I think the stealth passive was just redundant. Perhaps Bosmer need something better than what ZOS gave them with the last racial passive changes, but I still like the idea that it's something unique to them.

Then take all magicka bonus from Altmer and Dunmer, it's redundant with Bretons. Take all weapon bonuses from every race but Orcs, it's redundant. Take all stamina bonuses from every race but Redguards, it's redundant.

Having one, and only one, race with bonuses to magic is obviously silly; having one, and only one, race with bonuses to combat is equally silly. How is it not just as silly to have one, and only one, race with any bonus to thieving?

You're way oversimplifying. Altmer have higher magicka power than any other race, where bretons have historically focused on recovery or resistance to magicka, and Dunmer in ESO have a niche of getting bonuses to both magicka and stamina where the other races focus more on one or the other. Saying they're all the same because they all give magicka bonuses is like saying Redguards and Orcs are the same because they both give stamina bonuses. Give Bosmer something unique having to do with stealth, instead of just giving them the exact same stealth bonus as Khajiit because you personally want that bonus back.

What I was saying is not that their detection is the best way to accomplish this, but the theory is in my opinion solid. Give them a unique crit or flanking bonus, and make the Khajiit stealth passive more unique to thieving or something, as an example. It doesn't mean we need to scrap everything and just go back to the way things were just because the current Bosmer passive isn't the most applicable to your playstyle or the current meta. Who knows, maybe some players really like having another tool to stop those nightblade gankers in PVP.

@Marginis I don't think that's an oversimplification at all. This is exactly what was done. We had two stealth races before, now we only have one and one that's accidentally a bit better at sneaking (Imperial).
If ZOS gave us anything actively stealth related, say reduced sneak cost, we'd already be happy, because they acknowledge the series' lore.
Or at least we'd be happier than now. In ESO, stealth radius is the single most important stat for being a sneaky character. Sneak speed comes second and sneak cost comes in third. Give us any of those and we won't have to make an extra gear or vampirism investment. They can easily change it like that without hurting dps charts while adding flavor and keeping the "uniqueness" that ZOS praises so much.

ZOS had the option to give any of those passives to Bosmer instead of detection. That is the main problem. Bosmer are supposedly one of the most naturally gifted sneaks in Tamriel and racial passives should reflect that if stealth is a thing that exists in ESO. If the racial passives don't reflect the lore, then they are arbitrary and have no reason for being in the first place. They replaced being better at hiding with nothing. And yes, detection is nothing, even in PvP. I can explain that to you in detail if you want. But it should also not be glossed over the fact that one of the goals ZOS stated was that the passives should become more universally applicable and a passive that is only good in PvP and serves ABSOLUTELY NO PURPOSE in PvE is not what I would call "universally applicable".
We are not mad because the meta shifted away from out builds, we are mad because ZOS kicked 25 years of lore in the dirt and balanced against player expectations. That is why this is comparable. If you choose an Altmer to be good at magic because the lore says so, and then ZOS takes magic away from them completely, then you have every right to be upset and demand it back.

Just want to add that because the detect has no purpose is the reason you the second part of the Hunter's eye passive (the rolly poly part). So I'm pretty sure that from ZOS' point of view the "universally applicable" goal is achieved.

The goal to preserve established lore in the game has been utterly failed though.

Ogou

Koronach wrote: »

Ogou wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Marginis wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Marginis wrote: »

I may be in the minority but I think the stealth passive was just redundant. Perhaps Bosmer need something better than what ZOS gave them with the last racial passive changes, but I still like the idea that it's something unique to them.

Then take all magicka bonus from Altmer and Dunmer, it's redundant with Bretons. Take all weapon bonuses from every race but Orcs, it's redundant. Take all stamina bonuses from every race but Redguards, it's redundant.

Having one, and only one, race with bonuses to magic is obviously silly; having one, and only one, race with bonuses to combat is equally silly. How is it not just as silly to have one, and only one, race with any bonus to thieving?

You're way oversimplifying. Altmer have higher magicka power than any other race, where bretons have historically focused on recovery or resistance to magicka, and Dunmer in ESO have a niche of getting bonuses to both magicka and stamina where the other races focus more on one or the other. Saying they're all the same because they all give magicka bonuses is like saying Redguards and Orcs are the same because they both give stamina bonuses. Give Bosmer something unique having to do with stealth, instead of just giving them the exact same stealth bonus as Khajiit because you personally want that bonus back.

What I was saying is not that their detection is the best way to accomplish this, but the theory is in my opinion solid. Give them a unique crit or flanking bonus, and make the Khajiit stealth passive more unique to thieving or something, as an example. It doesn't mean we need to scrap everything and just go back to the way things were just because the current Bosmer passive isn't the most applicable to your playstyle or the current meta. Who knows, maybe some players really like having another tool to stop those nightblade gankers in PVP.

@Marginis I don't think that's an oversimplification at all. This is exactly what was done. We had two stealth races before, now we only have one and one that's accidentally a bit better at sneaking (Imperial).
If ZOS gave us anything actively stealth related, say reduced sneak cost, we'd already be happy, because they acknowledge the series' lore.
Or at least we'd be happier than now. In ESO, stealth radius is the single most important stat for being a sneaky character. Sneak speed comes second and sneak cost comes in third. Give us any of those and we won't have to make an extra gear or vampirism investment. They can easily change it like that without hurting dps charts while adding flavor and keeping the "uniqueness" that ZOS praises so much.

ZOS had the option to give any of those passives to Bosmer instead of detection. That is the main problem. Bosmer are supposedly one of the most naturally gifted sneaks in Tamriel and racial passives should reflect that if stealth is a thing that exists in ESO. If the racial passives don't reflect the lore, then they are arbitrary and have no reason for being in the first place. They replaced being better at hiding with nothing. And yes, detection is nothing, even in PvP. I can explain that to you in detail if you want. But it should also not be glossed over the fact that one of the goals ZOS stated was that the passives should become more universally applicable and a passive that is only good in PvP and serves ABSOLUTELY NO PURPOSE in PvE is not what I would call "universally applicable".
We are not mad because the meta shifted away from out builds, we are mad because ZOS kicked 25 years of lore in the dirt and balanced against player expectations. That is why this is comparable. If you choose an Altmer to be good at magic because the lore says so, and then ZOS takes magic away from them completely, then you have every right to be upset and demand it back.

Just want to add that because the detect has no purpose is the reason you the second part of the Hunter's eye passive (the rolly poly part). So I'm pretty sure that from ZOS' point of view the "universally applicable" goal is achieved.

The goal to preserve established lore in the game has been utterly failed though.

If you say so? Not the first time this has happened and it's probably not going to be the last either?

Marginis

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Marginis wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Marginis wrote: »

I may be in the minority but I think the stealth passive was just redundant. Perhaps Bosmer need something better than what ZOS gave them with the last racial passive changes, but I still like the idea that it's something unique to them.

Then take all magicka bonus from Altmer and Dunmer, it's redundant with Bretons. Take all weapon bonuses from every race but Orcs, it's redundant. Take all stamina bonuses from every race but Redguards, it's redundant.

Having one, and only one, race with bonuses to magic is obviously silly; having one, and only one, race with bonuses to combat is equally silly. How is it not just as silly to have one, and only one, race with any bonus to thieving?

You're way oversimplifying. Altmer have higher magicka power than any other race, where bretons have historically focused on recovery or resistance to magicka, and Dunmer in ESO have a niche of getting bonuses to both magicka and stamina where the other races focus more on one or the other. Saying they're all the same because they all give magicka bonuses is like saying Redguards and Orcs are the same because they both give stamina bonuses. Give Bosmer something unique having to do with stealth, instead of just giving them the exact same stealth bonus as Khajiit because you personally want that bonus back.

What I was saying is not that their detection is the best way to accomplish this, but the theory is in my opinion solid. Give them a unique crit or flanking bonus, and make the Khajiit stealth passive more unique to thieving or something, as an example. It doesn't mean we need to scrap everything and just go back to the way things were just because the current Bosmer passive isn't the most applicable to your playstyle or the current meta. Who knows, maybe some players really like having another tool to stop those nightblade gankers in PVP.

@Marginis I don't think that's an oversimplification at all. This is exactly what was done. We had two stealth races before, now we only have one and one that's accidentally a bit better at sneaking (Imperial).
If ZOS gave us anything actively stealth related, say reduced sneak cost, we'd already be happy, because they acknowledge the series' lore.
Or at least we'd be happier than now. In ESO, stealth radius is the single most important stat for being a sneaky character. Sneak speed comes second and sneak cost comes in third. Give us any of those and we won't have to make an extra gear or vampirism investment. They can easily change it like that without hurting dps charts while adding flavor and keeping the "uniqueness" that ZOS praises so much.

ZOS had the option to give any of those passives to Bosmer instead of detection. That is the main problem. Bosmer are supposedly one of the most naturally gifted sneaks in Tamriel and racial passives should reflect that if stealth is a thing that exists in ESO. If the racial passives don't reflect the lore, then they are arbitrary and have no reason for being in the first place. They replaced being better at hiding with nothing. And yes, detection is nothing, even in PvP. I can explain that to you in detail if you want. But it should also not be glossed over the fact that one of the goals ZOS stated was that the passives should become more universally applicable and a passive that is only good in PvP and serves ABSOLUTELY NO PURPOSE in PvE is not what I would call "universally applicable".
We are not mad because the meta shifted away from out builds, we are mad because ZOS kicked 25 years of lore in the dirt and balanced against player expectations. That is why this is comparable. If you choose an Altmer to be good at magic because the lore says so, and then ZOS takes magic away from them completely, then you have every right to be upset and demand it back.

I'm not sure I'd agree that the lore is as trampled as you say, and I personally think that while lore is important (I lead a lore-friendly roleplay guild, afterall) I do think it takes a backseat to balance and gameplay. However, I absolutely agree that a different type of stealth bonus would be great. Sneak speed, sneak cost, maybe even something unique like brief invisibility upon activating sneak. I just think it's a boring and uninventive solution to just give the same boring bonus there was and take away the uniqueness from both Khajiit and Bosmer. Khajiit have always had their thing, but Bosmer deserve better than to just be a slightly more stamina focused Khajiit.

Koronach

Ogou wrote: »

Koronach wrote: »

Ogou wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Marginis wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Marginis wrote: »

I may be in the minority but I think the stealth passive was just redundant. Perhaps Bosmer need something better than what ZOS gave them with the last racial passive changes, but I still like the idea that it's something unique to them.

Then take all magicka bonus from Altmer and Dunmer, it's redundant with Bretons. Take all weapon bonuses from every race but Orcs, it's redundant. Take all stamina bonuses from every race but Redguards, it's redundant.

Having one, and only one, race with bonuses to magic is obviously silly; having one, and only one, race with bonuses to combat is equally silly. How is it not just as silly to have one, and only one, race with any bonus to thieving?

You're way oversimplifying. Altmer have higher magicka power than any other race, where bretons have historically focused on recovery or resistance to magicka, and Dunmer in ESO have a niche of getting bonuses to both magicka and stamina where the other races focus more on one or the other. Saying they're all the same because they all give magicka bonuses is like saying Redguards and Orcs are the same because they both give stamina bonuses. Give Bosmer something unique having to do with stealth, instead of just giving them the exact same stealth bonus as Khajiit because you personally want that bonus back.

What I was saying is not that their detection is the best way to accomplish this, but the theory is in my opinion solid. Give them a unique crit or flanking bonus, and make the Khajiit stealth passive more unique to thieving or something, as an example. It doesn't mean we need to scrap everything and just go back to the way things were just because the current Bosmer passive isn't the most applicable to your playstyle or the current meta. Who knows, maybe some players really like having another tool to stop those nightblade gankers in PVP.

@Marginis I don't think that's an oversimplification at all. This is exactly what was done. We had two stealth races before, now we only have one and one that's accidentally a bit better at sneaking (Imperial).
If ZOS gave us anything actively stealth related, say reduced sneak cost, we'd already be happy, because they acknowledge the series' lore.
Or at least we'd be happier than now. In ESO, stealth radius is the single most important stat for being a sneaky character. Sneak speed comes second and sneak cost comes in third. Give us any of those and we won't have to make an extra gear or vampirism investment. They can easily change it like that without hurting dps charts while adding flavor and keeping the "uniqueness" that ZOS praises so much.

ZOS had the option to give any of those passives to Bosmer instead of detection. That is the main problem. Bosmer are supposedly one of the most naturally gifted sneaks in Tamriel and racial passives should reflect that if stealth is a thing that exists in ESO. If the racial passives don't reflect the lore, then they are arbitrary and have no reason for being in the first place. They replaced being better at hiding with nothing. And yes, detection is nothing, even in PvP. I can explain that to you in detail if you want. But it should also not be glossed over the fact that one of the goals ZOS stated was that the passives should become more universally applicable and a passive that is only good in PvP and serves ABSOLUTELY NO PURPOSE in PvE is not what I would call "universally applicable".
We are not mad because the meta shifted away from out builds, we are mad because ZOS kicked 25 years of lore in the dirt and balanced against player expectations. That is why this is comparable. If you choose an Altmer to be good at magic because the lore says so, and then ZOS takes magic away from them completely, then you have every right to be upset and demand it back.

Just want to add that because the detect has no purpose is the reason you the second part of the Hunter's eye passive (the rolly poly part). So I'm pretty sure that from ZOS' point of view the "universally applicable" goal is achieved.

The goal to preserve established lore in the game has been utterly failed though.

If you say so? Not the first time this has happened and it's probably not going to be the last either?

Of course you can't defend ZoS on that because they utterly failed in that goal, just like I said. So you just post two questions because you don't know what to say.

Cundu_Ertur

Ogou wrote: »

Koronach wrote: »

Ogou wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Marginis wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Marginis wrote: »

I may be in the minority but I think the stealth passive was just redundant. Perhaps Bosmer need something better than what ZOS gave them with the last racial passive changes, but I still like the idea that it's something unique to them.

Then take all magicka bonus from Altmer and Dunmer, it's redundant with Bretons. Take all weapon bonuses from every race but Orcs, it's redundant. Take all stamina bonuses from every race but Redguards, it's redundant.

Having one, and only one, race with bonuses to magic is obviously silly; having one, and only one, race with bonuses to combat is equally silly. How is it not just as silly to have one, and only one, race with any bonus to thieving?

You're way oversimplifying. Altmer have higher magicka power than any other race, where bretons have historically focused on recovery or resistance to magicka, and Dunmer in ESO have a niche of getting bonuses to both magicka and stamina where the other races focus more on one or the other. Saying they're all the same because they all give magicka bonuses is like saying Redguards and Orcs are the same because they both give stamina bonuses. Give Bosmer something unique having to do with stealth, instead of just giving them the exact same stealth bonus as Khajiit because you personally want that bonus back.

What I was saying is not that their detection is the best way to accomplish this, but the theory is in my opinion solid. Give them a unique crit or flanking bonus, and make the Khajiit stealth passive more unique to thieving or something, as an example. It doesn't mean we need to scrap everything and just go back to the way things were just because the current Bosmer passive isn't the most applicable to your playstyle or the current meta. Who knows, maybe some players really like having another tool to stop those nightblade gankers in PVP.

@Marginis I don't think that's an oversimplification at all. This is exactly what was done. We had two stealth races before, now we only have one and one that's accidentally a bit better at sneaking (Imperial).
If ZOS gave us anything actively stealth related, say reduced sneak cost, we'd already be happy, because they acknowledge the series' lore.
Or at least we'd be happier than now. In ESO, stealth radius is the single most important stat for being a sneaky character. Sneak speed comes second and sneak cost comes in third. Give us any of those and we won't have to make an extra gear or vampirism investment. They can easily change it like that without hurting dps charts while adding flavor and keeping the "uniqueness" that ZOS praises so much.

ZOS had the option to give any of those passives to Bosmer instead of detection. That is the main problem. Bosmer are supposedly one of the most naturally gifted sneaks in Tamriel and racial passives should reflect that if stealth is a thing that exists in ESO. If the racial passives don't reflect the lore, then they are arbitrary and have no reason for being in the first place. They replaced being better at hiding with nothing. And yes, detection is nothing, even in PvP. I can explain that to you in detail if you want. But it should also not be glossed over the fact that one of the goals ZOS stated was that the passives should become more universally applicable and a passive that is only good in PvP and serves ABSOLUTELY NO PURPOSE in PvE is not what I would call "universally applicable".
We are not mad because the meta shifted away from out builds, we are mad because ZOS kicked 25 years of lore in the dirt and balanced against player expectations. That is why this is comparable. If you choose an Altmer to be good at magic because the lore says so, and then ZOS takes magic away from them completely, then you have every right to be upset and demand it back.

Just want to add that because the detect has no purpose is the reason you the second part of the Hunter's eye passive (the rolly poly part). So I'm pretty sure that from ZOS' point of view the "universally applicable" goal is achieved.

The goal to preserve established lore in the game has been utterly failed though.

If you say so? Not the first time this has happened and it's probably not going to be the last either?

Actually, yes this is the first time, ever, that Bosmer have no bonus to sneaking and no bonus to any thieving skill.

Ogou

Koronach wrote: »

Ogou wrote: »

Koronach wrote: »

Ogou wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Marginis wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Marginis wrote: »

I may be in the minority but I think the stealth passive was just redundant. Perhaps Bosmer need something better than what ZOS gave them with the last racial passive changes, but I still like the idea that it's something unique to them.

Then take all magicka bonus from Altmer and Dunmer, it's redundant with Bretons. Take all weapon bonuses from every race but Orcs, it's redundant. Take all stamina bonuses from every race but Redguards, it's redundant.

Having one, and only one, race with bonuses to magic is obviously silly; having one, and only one, race with bonuses to combat is equally silly. How is it not just as silly to have one, and only one, race with any bonus to thieving?

You're way oversimplifying. Altmer have higher magicka power than any other race, where bretons have historically focused on recovery or resistance to magicka, and Dunmer in ESO have a niche of getting bonuses to both magicka and stamina where the other races focus more on one or the other. Saying they're all the same because they all give magicka bonuses is like saying Redguards and Orcs are the same because they both give stamina bonuses. Give Bosmer something unique having to do with stealth, instead of just giving them the exact same stealth bonus as Khajiit because you personally want that bonus back.

What I was saying is not that their detection is the best way to accomplish this, but the theory is in my opinion solid. Give them a unique crit or flanking bonus, and make the Khajiit stealth passive more unique to thieving or something, as an example. It doesn't mean we need to scrap everything and just go back to the way things were just because the current Bosmer passive isn't the most applicable to your playstyle or the current meta. Who knows, maybe some players really like having another tool to stop those nightblade gankers in PVP.

@Marginis I don't think that's an oversimplification at all. This is exactly what was done. We had two stealth races before, now we only have one and one that's accidentally a bit better at sneaking (Imperial).
If ZOS gave us anything actively stealth related, say reduced sneak cost, we'd already be happy, because they acknowledge the series' lore.
Or at least we'd be happier than now. In ESO, stealth radius is the single most important stat for being a sneaky character. Sneak speed comes second and sneak cost comes in third. Give us any of those and we won't have to make an extra gear or vampirism investment. They can easily change it like that without hurting dps charts while adding flavor and keeping the "uniqueness" that ZOS praises so much.

ZOS had the option to give any of those passives to Bosmer instead of detection. That is the main problem. Bosmer are supposedly one of the most naturally gifted sneaks in Tamriel and racial passives should reflect that if stealth is a thing that exists in ESO. If the racial passives don't reflect the lore, then they are arbitrary and have no reason for being in the first place. They replaced being better at hiding with nothing. And yes, detection is nothing, even in PvP. I can explain that to you in detail if you want. But it should also not be glossed over the fact that one of the goals ZOS stated was that the passives should become more universally applicable and a passive that is only good in PvP and serves ABSOLUTELY NO PURPOSE in PvE is not what I would call "universally applicable".
We are not mad because the meta shifted away from out builds, we are mad because ZOS kicked 25 years of lore in the dirt and balanced against player expectations. That is why this is comparable. If you choose an Altmer to be good at magic because the lore says so, and then ZOS takes magic away from them completely, then you have every right to be upset and demand it back.

Just want to add that because the detect has no purpose is the reason you the second part of the Hunter's eye passive (the rolly poly part). So I'm pretty sure that from ZOS' point of view the "universally applicable" goal is achieved.

The goal to preserve established lore in the game has been utterly failed though.

If you say so? Not the first time this has happened and it's probably not going to be the last either?

Of course you can't defend ZoS on that because they utterly failed in that goal, just like I said. So you just post two questions because you don't know what to say.

I'm not sure where you get the idea that I am trying to defend ZOS from. Your reply had nothing to do with my original comment so I didn't feel the need to disprove what you said.

Ogou

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Ogou wrote: »

Koronach wrote: »

Ogou wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Marginis wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Marginis wrote: »

I may be in the minority but I think the stealth passive was just redundant. Perhaps Bosmer need something better than what ZOS gave them with the last racial passive changes, but I still like the idea that it's something unique to them.

Then take all magicka bonus from Altmer and Dunmer, it's redundant with Bretons. Take all weapon bonuses from every race but Orcs, it's redundant. Take all stamina bonuses from every race but Redguards, it's redundant.

Having one, and only one, race with bonuses to magic is obviously silly; having one, and only one, race with bonuses to combat is equally silly. How is it not just as silly to have one, and only one, race with any bonus to thieving?

You're way oversimplifying. Altmer have higher magicka power than any other race, where bretons have historically focused on recovery or resistance to magicka, and Dunmer in ESO have a niche of getting bonuses to both magicka and stamina where the other races focus more on one or the other. Saying they're all the same because they all give magicka bonuses is like saying Redguards and Orcs are the same because they both give stamina bonuses. Give Bosmer something unique having to do with stealth, instead of just giving them the exact same stealth bonus as Khajiit because you personally want that bonus back.

What I was saying is not that their detection is the best way to accomplish this, but the theory is in my opinion solid. Give them a unique crit or flanking bonus, and make the Khajiit stealth passive more unique to thieving or something, as an example. It doesn't mean we need to scrap everything and just go back to the way things were just because the current Bosmer passive isn't the most applicable to your playstyle or the current meta. Who knows, maybe some players really like having another tool to stop those nightblade gankers in PVP.

@Marginis I don't think that's an oversimplification at all. This is exactly what was done. We had two stealth races before, now we only have one and one that's accidentally a bit better at sneaking (Imperial).
If ZOS gave us anything actively stealth related, say reduced sneak cost, we'd already be happy, because they acknowledge the series' lore.
Or at least we'd be happier than now. In ESO, stealth radius is the single most important stat for being a sneaky character. Sneak speed comes second and sneak cost comes in third. Give us any of those and we won't have to make an extra gear or vampirism investment. They can easily change it like that without hurting dps charts while adding flavor and keeping the "uniqueness" that ZOS praises so much.

ZOS had the option to give any of those passives to Bosmer instead of detection. That is the main problem. Bosmer are supposedly one of the most naturally gifted sneaks in Tamriel and racial passives should reflect that if stealth is a thing that exists in ESO. If the racial passives don't reflect the lore, then they are arbitrary and have no reason for being in the first place. They replaced being better at hiding with nothing. And yes, detection is nothing, even in PvP. I can explain that to you in detail if you want. But it should also not be glossed over the fact that one of the goals ZOS stated was that the passives should become more universally applicable and a passive that is only good in PvP and serves ABSOLUTELY NO PURPOSE in PvE is not what I would call "universally applicable".
We are not mad because the meta shifted away from out builds, we are mad because ZOS kicked 25 years of lore in the dirt and balanced against player expectations. That is why this is comparable. If you choose an Altmer to be good at magic because the lore says so, and then ZOS takes magic away from them completely, then you have every right to be upset and demand it back.

Just want to add that because the detect has no purpose is the reason you the second part of the Hunter's eye passive (the rolly poly part). So I'm pretty sure that from ZOS' point of view the "universally applicable" goal is achieved.

The goal to preserve established lore in the game has been utterly failed though.

If you say so? Not the first time this has happened and it's probably not going to be the last either?

Actually, yes this is the first time, ever, that Bosmer have no bonus to sneaking and no bonus to any thieving skill.

I meant it's not the first time that there was some disconnection between gameplay and lore.

Koronach

Ogou wrote: »

Koronach wrote: »

Ogou wrote: »

Koronach wrote: »

Ogou wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Marginis wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Marginis wrote: »

I may be in the minority but I think the stealth passive was just redundant. Perhaps Bosmer need something better than what ZOS gave them with the last racial passive changes, but I still like the idea that it's something unique to them.

Then take all magicka bonus from Altmer and Dunmer, it's redundant with Bretons. Take all weapon bonuses from every race but Orcs, it's redundant. Take all stamina bonuses from every race but Redguards, it's redundant.

Having one, and only one, race with bonuses to magic is obviously silly; having one, and only one, race with bonuses to combat is equally silly. How is it not just as silly to have one, and only one, race with any bonus to thieving?

You're way oversimplifying. Altmer have higher magicka power than any other race, where bretons have historically focused on recovery or resistance to magicka, and Dunmer in ESO have a niche of getting bonuses to both magicka and stamina where the other races focus more on one or the other. Saying they're all the same because they all give magicka bonuses is like saying Redguards and Orcs are the same because they both give stamina bonuses. Give Bosmer something unique having to do with stealth, instead of just giving them the exact same stealth bonus as Khajiit because you personally want that bonus back.

What I was saying is not that their detection is the best way to accomplish this, but the theory is in my opinion solid. Give them a unique crit or flanking bonus, and make the Khajiit stealth passive more unique to thieving or something, as an example. It doesn't mean we need to scrap everything and just go back to the way things were just because the current Bosmer passive isn't the most applicable to your playstyle or the current meta. Who knows, maybe some players really like having another tool to stop those nightblade gankers in PVP.

@Marginis I don't think that's an oversimplification at all. This is exactly what was done. We had two stealth races before, now we only have one and one that's accidentally a bit better at sneaking (Imperial).
If ZOS gave us anything actively stealth related, say reduced sneak cost, we'd already be happy, because they acknowledge the series' lore.
Or at least we'd be happier than now. In ESO, stealth radius is the single most important stat for being a sneaky character. Sneak speed comes second and sneak cost comes in third. Give us any of those and we won't have to make an extra gear or vampirism investment. They can easily change it like that without hurting dps charts while adding flavor and keeping the "uniqueness" that ZOS praises so much.

ZOS had the option to give any of those passives to Bosmer instead of detection. That is the main problem. Bosmer are supposedly one of the most naturally gifted sneaks in Tamriel and racial passives should reflect that if stealth is a thing that exists in ESO. If the racial passives don't reflect the lore, then they are arbitrary and have no reason for being in the first place. They replaced being better at hiding with nothing. And yes, detection is nothing, even in PvP. I can explain that to you in detail if you want. But it should also not be glossed over the fact that one of the goals ZOS stated was that the passives should become more universally applicable and a passive that is only good in PvP and serves ABSOLUTELY NO PURPOSE in PvE is not what I would call "universally applicable".
We are not mad because the meta shifted away from out builds, we are mad because ZOS kicked 25 years of lore in the dirt and balanced against player expectations. That is why this is comparable. If you choose an Altmer to be good at magic because the lore says so, and then ZOS takes magic away from them completely, then you have every right to be upset and demand it back.

Just want to add that because the detect has no purpose is the reason you the second part of the Hunter's eye passive (the rolly poly part). So I'm pretty sure that from ZOS' point of view the "universally applicable" goal is achieved.

The goal to preserve established lore in the game has been utterly failed though.

If you say so? Not the first time this has happened and it's probably not going to be the last either?

Of course you can't defend ZoS on that because they utterly failed in that goal, just like I said. So you just post two questions because you don't know what to say.

I'm not sure where you get the idea that I am trying to defend ZOS from. Your reply had nothing to do with my original comment so I didn't feel the need to disprove what you said.

My reply was to your reply to me, so not sure what you are even talking about now.

Ratzkifal

Ogou wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Marginis wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Marginis wrote: »

I may be in the minority but I think the stealth passive was just redundant. Perhaps Bosmer need something better than what ZOS gave them with the last racial passive changes, but I still like the idea that it's something unique to them.

Then take all magicka bonus from Altmer and Dunmer, it's redundant with Bretons. Take all weapon bonuses from every race but Orcs, it's redundant. Take all stamina bonuses from every race but Redguards, it's redundant.

Having one, and only one, race with bonuses to magic is obviously silly; having one, and only one, race with bonuses to combat is equally silly. How is it not just as silly to have one, and only one, race with any bonus to thieving?

You're way oversimplifying. Altmer have higher magicka power than any other race, where bretons have historically focused on recovery or resistance to magicka, and Dunmer in ESO have a niche of getting bonuses to both magicka and stamina where the other races focus more on one or the other. Saying they're all the same because they all give magicka bonuses is like saying Redguards and Orcs are the same because they both give stamina bonuses. Give Bosmer something unique having to do with stealth, instead of just giving them the exact same stealth bonus as Khajiit because you personally want that bonus back.

What I was saying is not that their detection is the best way to accomplish this, but the theory is in my opinion solid. Give them a unique crit or flanking bonus, and make the Khajiit stealth passive more unique to thieving or something, as an example. It doesn't mean we need to scrap everything and just go back to the way things were just because the current Bosmer passive isn't the most applicable to your playstyle or the current meta. Who knows, maybe some players really like having another tool to stop those nightblade gankers in PVP.

@Marginis I don't think that's an oversimplification at all. This is exactly what was done. We had two stealth races before, now we only have one and one that's accidentally a bit better at sneaking (Imperial).
If ZOS gave us anything actively stealth related, say reduced sneak cost, we'd already be happy, because they acknowledge the series' lore.
Or at least we'd be happier than now. In ESO, stealth radius is the single most important stat for being a sneaky character. Sneak speed comes second and sneak cost comes in third. Give us any of those and we won't have to make an extra gear or vampirism investment. They can easily change it like that without hurting dps charts while adding flavor and keeping the "uniqueness" that ZOS praises so much.

ZOS had the option to give any of those passives to Bosmer instead of detection. That is the main problem. Bosmer are supposedly one of the most naturally gifted sneaks in Tamriel and racial passives should reflect that if stealth is a thing that exists in ESO. If the racial passives don't reflect the lore, then they are arbitrary and have no reason for being in the first place. They replaced being better at hiding with nothing. And yes, detection is nothing, even in PvP. I can explain that to you in detail if you want. But it should also not be glossed over the fact that one of the goals ZOS stated was that the passives should become more universally applicable and a passive that is only good in PvP and serves ABSOLUTELY NO PURPOSE in PvE is not what I would call "universally applicable".
We are not mad because the meta shifted away from out builds, we are mad because ZOS kicked 25 years of lore in the dirt and balanced against player expectations. That is why this is comparable. If you choose an Altmer to be good at magic because the lore says so, and then ZOS takes magic away from them completely, then you have every right to be upset and demand it back.

Just want to add that because the detect has no purpose is the reason you the second part of the Hunter's eye passive (the rolly poly part). So I'm pretty sure that from ZOS' point of view the "universally applicable" goal is achieved.

Except that the rolly polly part is also pretty much only useful in PvP. You never have to dodgeroll enough in PvE to get a decent uptime on it and trying to capitalize on uptime hurts your sustain far too much to make it worth it. If those passives played better with each other, say the first dodgeroll every 6 seconds is free, then it would be a different story. But now we have to sacrifice something to gain nothing. Only if that sacrifice is made necessary because of mechanics or skills that need to be dodged you actually have a net gain of value in that passive. And that is only the case in PvP and I guess in 1% of combat time in PvE. Meanwhile other races benefit from their passive all the time in PvE and not just 1% of it.

The biggest use that Hunter's eye has right now is the movement speed, which I'd argue is overshadowed by the 10% sprint speed Orcs get all the time at a reduced cost. I liked the 20% iteration more but would settle for 10% with the penetration becoming a permanent effect (at a reasonably adjusted value).

Turning the detection back into stealth would already be huge though. The rest can stay as it is for all I care as long as we get the stealth back.

Cundu_Ertur

Marginis wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Marginis wrote: »

I may be in the minority but I think the stealth passive was just redundant. Perhaps Bosmer need something better than what ZOS gave them with the last racial passive changes, but I still like the idea that it's something unique to them.

Then take all magicka bonus from Altmer and Dunmer, it's redundant with Bretons. Take all weapon bonuses from every race but Orcs, it's redundant. Take all stamina bonuses from every race but Redguards, it's redundant.

Having one, and only one, race with bonuses to magic is obviously silly; having one, and only one, race with bonuses to combat is equally silly. How is it not just as silly to have one, and only one, race with any bonus to thieving?

You're way oversimplifying. Altmer have higher magicka power than any other race, where bretons have historically focused on recovery or resistance to magicka, and Dunmer in ESO have a niche of getting bonuses to both magicka and stamina where the other races focus more on one or the other. Saying they're all the same because they all give magicka bonuses is like saying Redguards and Orcs are the same because they both give stamina bonuses. Give Bosmer something unique having to do with stealth, instead of just giving them the exact same stealth bonus as Khajiit because you personally want that bonus back.

What I was saying is not that their detection is the best way to accomplish this, but the theory is in my opinion solid. Give them a unique crit or flanking bonus, and make the Khajiit stealth passive more unique to thieving or something, as an example. It doesn't mean we need to scrap everything and just go back to the way things were just because the current Bosmer passive isn't the most applicable to your playstyle or the current meta. Who knows, maybe some players really like having another tool to stop those nightblade gankers in PVP.

No, you are minimizing the value of the Thief archetype or playstyle. Sneaking is the defining skill for thieves. There is nothing else that comes close to it. So, yes, taking the stealth bonus away from the Bosmer is exactly like taking all magicka bonuses away from the Altmer. It is removing the defining characteristic of the race. In any case, you are making my argument for me. Altmer get a bonus to Magicka AND a boost to magick damage. Bretons get a bonus to Magicka AND better regen AND lower skill cost. Dunmer get a bonus to Magicka AND stamina AND magical and weapon damage. Just because some race has some particular thing doesn't mean that it MUST be exclusive to that race. And in any case, the passive would still be different as a whole if it was a hiding bonus + roll dodge for Bosmer and hiding bonus + critical damage/healing for Khajiit.
You insist on looking at the hiding bonus as if it is some completely useless RP fluff garbage that no-one needs. You and the Devs are ignoring the FACT that Warrior/Mage/Thief gameplay has been at the heart of all TES games since they started. You and the Devs are ignoring the value that the hiding bonus has to Thief gameplay.

As for "Khajiit have always had their thing," so far as I am aware there is not one single lore reference to Khajiit being especially skilled at hiding. None. All they have is the lore (which Bosmer also have) that they are great thieves. Bosmer have lore (from multiple sources) that EXPLICITLY says they are great at hiding. So, no Khajiit have not "always had" this thing as any kind of exclusive, it has always been shared by the Bosmer and Khajiit, with Bosmer usually being better at it.

Ogou

Koronach wrote: »

Ogou wrote: »

Koronach wrote: »

Ogou wrote: »

Koronach wrote: »

Ogou wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Marginis wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Marginis wrote: »

I may be in the minority but I think the stealth passive was just redundant. Perhaps Bosmer need something better than what ZOS gave them with the last racial passive changes, but I still like the idea that it's something unique to them.

Then take all magicka bonus from Altmer and Dunmer, it's redundant with Bretons. Take all weapon bonuses from every race but Orcs, it's redundant. Take all stamina bonuses from every race but Redguards, it's redundant.

Having one, and only one, race with bonuses to magic is obviously silly; having one, and only one, race with bonuses to combat is equally silly. How is it not just as silly to have one, and only one, race with any bonus to thieving?

You're way oversimplifying. Altmer have higher magicka power than any other race, where bretons have historically focused on recovery or resistance to magicka, and Dunmer in ESO have a niche of getting bonuses to both magicka and stamina where the other races focus more on one or the other. Saying they're all the same because they all give magicka bonuses is like saying Redguards and Orcs are the same because they both give stamina bonuses. Give Bosmer something unique having to do with stealth, instead of just giving them the exact same stealth bonus as Khajiit because you personally want that bonus back.

What I was saying is not that their detection is the best way to accomplish this, but the theory is in my opinion solid. Give them a unique crit or flanking bonus, and make the Khajiit stealth passive more unique to thieving or something, as an example. It doesn't mean we need to scrap everything and just go back to the way things were just because the current Bosmer passive isn't the most applicable to your playstyle or the current meta. Who knows, maybe some players really like having another tool to stop those nightblade gankers in PVP.

@Marginis I don't think that's an oversimplification at all. This is exactly what was done. We had two stealth races before, now we only have one and one that's accidentally a bit better at sneaking (Imperial).
If ZOS gave us anything actively stealth related, say reduced sneak cost, we'd already be happy, because they acknowledge the series' lore.
Or at least we'd be happier than now. In ESO, stealth radius is the single most important stat for being a sneaky character. Sneak speed comes second and sneak cost comes in third. Give us any of those and we won't have to make an extra gear or vampirism investment. They can easily change it like that without hurting dps charts while adding flavor and keeping the "uniqueness" that ZOS praises so much.

ZOS had the option to give any of those passives to Bosmer instead of detection. That is the main problem. Bosmer are supposedly one of the most naturally gifted sneaks in Tamriel and racial passives should reflect that if stealth is a thing that exists in ESO. If the racial passives don't reflect the lore, then they are arbitrary and have no reason for being in the first place. They replaced being better at hiding with nothing. And yes, detection is nothing, even in PvP. I can explain that to you in detail if you want. But it should also not be glossed over the fact that one of the goals ZOS stated was that the passives should become more universally applicable and a passive that is only good in PvP and serves ABSOLUTELY NO PURPOSE in PvE is not what I would call "universally applicable".
We are not mad because the meta shifted away from out builds, we are mad because ZOS kicked 25 years of lore in the dirt and balanced against player expectations. That is why this is comparable. If you choose an Altmer to be good at magic because the lore says so, and then ZOS takes magic away from them completely, then you have every right to be upset and demand it back.

Just want to add that because the detect has no purpose is the reason you the second part of the Hunter's eye passive (the rolly poly part). So I'm pretty sure that from ZOS' point of view the "universally applicable" goal is achieved.

The goal to preserve established lore in the game has been utterly failed though.

If you say so? Not the first time this has happened and it's probably not going to be the last either?

Of course you can't defend ZoS on that because they utterly failed in that goal, just like I said. So you just post two questions because you don't know what to say.

I'm not sure where you get the idea that I am trying to defend ZOS from. Your reply had nothing to do with my original comment so I didn't feel the need to disprove what you said.

My reply was to your reply to me, so not sure what you are even talking about now.

sigh

My original comment was:

Ogou wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Marginis wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Marginis wrote: »

I may be in the minority but I think the stealth passive was just redundant. Perhaps Bosmer need something better than what ZOS gave them with the last racial passive changes, but I still like the idea that it's something unique to them.

Then take all magicka bonus from Altmer and Dunmer, it's redundant with Bretons. Take all weapon bonuses from every race but Orcs, it's redundant. Take all stamina bonuses from every race but Redguards, it's redundant.

Having one, and only one, race with bonuses to magic is obviously silly; having one, and only one, race with bonuses to combat is equally silly. How is it not just as silly to have one, and only one, race with any bonus to thieving?

You're way oversimplifying. Altmer have higher magicka power than any other race, where bretons have historically focused on recovery or resistance to magicka, and Dunmer in ESO have a niche of getting bonuses to both magicka and stamina where the other races focus more on one or the other. Saying they're all the same because they all give magicka bonuses is like saying Redguards and Orcs are the same because they both give stamina bonuses. Give Bosmer something unique having to do with stealth, instead of just giving them the exact same stealth bonus as Khajiit because you personally want that bonus back.

What I was saying is not that their detection is the best way to accomplish this, but the theory is in my opinion solid. Give them a unique crit or flanking bonus, and make the Khajiit stealth passive more unique to thieving or something, as an example. It doesn't mean we need to scrap everything and just go back to the way things were just because the current Bosmer passive isn't the most applicable to your playstyle or the current meta. Who knows, maybe some players really like having another tool to stop those nightblade gankers in PVP.

@Marginis I don't think that's an oversimplification at all. This is exactly what was done. We had two stealth races before, now we only have one and one that's accidentally a bit better at sneaking (Imperial).
If ZOS gave us anything actively stealth related, say reduced sneak cost, we'd already be happy, because they acknowledge the series' lore.
Or at least we'd be happier than now. In ESO, stealth radius is the single most important stat for being a sneaky character. Sneak speed comes second and sneak cost comes in third. Give us any of those and we won't have to make an extra gear or vampirism investment. They can easily change it like that without hurting dps charts while adding flavor and keeping the "uniqueness" that ZOS praises so much.

ZOS had the option to give any of those passives to Bosmer instead of detection. That is the main problem. Bosmer are supposedly one of the most naturally gifted sneaks in Tamriel and racial passives should reflect that if stealth is a thing that exists in ESO. If the racial passives don't reflect the lore, then they are arbitrary and have no reason for being in the first place. They replaced being better at hiding with nothing. And yes, detection is nothing, even in PvP. I can explain that to you in detail if you want. But it should also not be glossed over the fact that one of the goals ZOS stated was that the passives should become more universally applicable and a passive that is only good in PvP and serves ABSOLUTELY NO PURPOSE in PvE is not what I would call "universally applicable".
We are not mad because the meta shifted away from out builds, we are mad because ZOS kicked 25 years of lore in the dirt and balanced against player expectations. That is why this is comparable. If you choose an Altmer to be good at magic because the lore says so, and then ZOS takes magic away from them completely, then you have every right to be upset and demand it back.

Just want to add that because the detect has no purpose is the reason you the second part of the Hunter's eye passive (the rolly poly part). So I'm pretty sure that from ZOS' point of view the "universally applicable" goal is achieved.

To which you replied:

Koronach wrote: »

Ogou wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Marginis wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Marginis wrote: »

I may be in the minority but I think the stealth passive was just redundant. Perhaps Bosmer need something better than what ZOS gave them with the last racial passive changes, but I still like the idea that it's something unique to them.

Then take all magicka bonus from Altmer and Dunmer, it's redundant with Bretons. Take all weapon bonuses from every race but Orcs, it's redundant. Take all stamina bonuses from every race but Redguards, it's redundant.

Having one, and only one, race with bonuses to magic is obviously silly; having one, and only one, race with bonuses to combat is equally silly. How is it not just as silly to have one, and only one, race with any bonus to thieving?

You're way oversimplifying. Altmer have higher magicka power than any other race, where bretons have historically focused on recovery or resistance to magicka, and Dunmer in ESO have a niche of getting bonuses to both magicka and stamina where the other races focus more on one or the other. Saying they're all the same because they all give magicka bonuses is like saying Redguards and Orcs are the same because they both give stamina bonuses. Give Bosmer something unique having to do with stealth, instead of just giving them the exact same stealth bonus as Khajiit because you personally want that bonus back.

What I was saying is not that their detection is the best way to accomplish this, but the theory is in my opinion solid. Give them a unique crit or flanking bonus, and make the Khajiit stealth passive more unique to thieving or something, as an example. It doesn't mean we need to scrap everything and just go back to the way things were just because the current Bosmer passive isn't the most applicable to your playstyle or the current meta. Who knows, maybe some players really like having another tool to stop those nightblade gankers in PVP.

@Marginis I don't think that's an oversimplification at all. This is exactly what was done. We had two stealth races before, now we only have one and one that's accidentally a bit better at sneaking (Imperial).
If ZOS gave us anything actively stealth related, say reduced sneak cost, we'd already be happy, because they acknowledge the series' lore.
Or at least we'd be happier than now. In ESO, stealth radius is the single most important stat for being a sneaky character. Sneak speed comes second and sneak cost comes in third. Give us any of those and we won't have to make an extra gear or vampirism investment. They can easily change it like that without hurting dps charts while adding flavor and keeping the "uniqueness" that ZOS praises so much.

ZOS had the option to give any of those passives to Bosmer instead of detection. That is the main problem. Bosmer are supposedly one of the most naturally gifted sneaks in Tamriel and racial passives should reflect that if stealth is a thing that exists in ESO. If the racial passives don't reflect the lore, then they are arbitrary and have no reason for being in the first place. They replaced being better at hiding with nothing. And yes, detection is nothing, even in PvP. I can explain that to you in detail if you want. But it should also not be glossed over the fact that one of the goals ZOS stated was that the passives should become more universally applicable and a passive that is only good in PvP and serves ABSOLUTELY NO PURPOSE in PvE is not what I would call "universally applicable".
We are not mad because the meta shifted away from out builds, we are mad because ZOS kicked 25 years of lore in the dirt and balanced against player expectations. That is why this is comparable. If you choose an Altmer to be good at magic because the lore says so, and then ZOS takes magic away from them completely, then you have every right to be upset and demand it back.

Just want to add that because the detect has no purpose is the reason you the second part of the Hunter's eye passive (the rolly poly part). So I'm pretty sure that from ZOS' point of view the "universally applicable" goal is achieved.

The goal to preserve established lore in the game has been utterly failed though.

I never said anything about ZOS achieving their goal to preserve established lore and I don't know why you expect me to defend a point I never made.

Ratzkifal

Marginis wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Marginis wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Marginis wrote: »

I may be in the minority but I think the stealth passive was just redundant. Perhaps Bosmer need something better than what ZOS gave them with the last racial passive changes, but I still like the idea that it's something unique to them.

Then take all magicka bonus from Altmer and Dunmer, it's redundant with Bretons. Take all weapon bonuses from every race but Orcs, it's redundant. Take all stamina bonuses from every race but Redguards, it's redundant.

Having one, and only one, race with bonuses to magic is obviously silly; having one, and only one, race with bonuses to combat is equally silly. How is it not just as silly to have one, and only one, race with any bonus to thieving?

You're way oversimplifying. Altmer have higher magicka power than any other race, where bretons have historically focused on recovery or resistance to magicka, and Dunmer in ESO have a niche of getting bonuses to both magicka and stamina where the other races focus more on one or the other. Saying they're all the same because they all give magicka bonuses is like saying Redguards and Orcs are the same because they both give stamina bonuses. Give Bosmer something unique having to do with stealth, instead of just giving them the exact same stealth bonus as Khajiit because you personally want that bonus back.

What I was saying is not that their detection is the best way to accomplish this, but the theory is in my opinion solid. Give them a unique crit or flanking bonus, and make the Khajiit stealth passive more unique to thieving or something, as an example. It doesn't mean we need to scrap everything and just go back to the way things were just because the current Bosmer passive isn't the most applicable to your playstyle or the current meta. Who knows, maybe some players really like having another tool to stop those nightblade gankers in PVP.

@Marginis I don't think that's an oversimplification at all. This is exactly what was done. We had two stealth races before, now we only have one and one that's accidentally a bit better at sneaking (Imperial).
If ZOS gave us anything actively stealth related, say reduced sneak cost, we'd already be happy, because they acknowledge the series' lore.
Or at least we'd be happier than now. In ESO, stealth radius is the single most important stat for being a sneaky character. Sneak speed comes second and sneak cost comes in third. Give us any of those and we won't have to make an extra gear or vampirism investment. They can easily change it like that without hurting dps charts while adding flavor and keeping the "uniqueness" that ZOS praises so much.

ZOS had the option to give any of those passives to Bosmer instead of detection. That is the main problem. Bosmer are supposedly one of the most naturally gifted sneaks in Tamriel and racial passives should reflect that if stealth is a thing that exists in ESO. If the racial passives don't reflect the lore, then they are arbitrary and have no reason for being in the first place. They replaced being better at hiding with nothing. And yes, detection is nothing, even in PvP. I can explain that to you in detail if you want. But it should also not be glossed over the fact that one of the goals ZOS stated was that the passives should become more universally applicable and a passive that is only good in PvP and serves ABSOLUTELY NO PURPOSE in PvE is not what I would call "universally applicable".
We are not mad because the meta shifted away from out builds, we are mad because ZOS kicked 25 years of lore in the dirt and balanced against player expectations. That is why this is comparable. If you choose an Altmer to be good at magic because the lore says so, and then ZOS takes magic away from them completely, then you have every right to be upset and demand it back.

I'm not sure I'd agree that the lore is as trampled as you say, and I personally think that while lore is important (I lead a lore-friendly roleplay guild, afterall) I do think it takes a backseat to balance and gameplay. However, I absolutely agree that a different type of stealth bonus would be great. Sneak speed, sneak cost, maybe even something unique like brief invisibility upon activating sneak. I just think it's a boring and uninventive solution to just give the same boring bonus there was and take away the uniqueness from both Khajiit and Bosmer. Khajiit have always had their thing, but Bosmer deserve better than to just be a slightly more stamina focused Khajiit.

Yes, I agree it takes a backseat to balance and gameplay. But I'd say it only goes that far. I wouldn't be demanding stealth for Bosmer if stealth wasn't a thing in ESO. I am not demanding chameleon like skin and invisibility near plants, even if that would be in line with the lore. Stealth is gameplay in ESO after all and ZOS limited choice - the very thing they wanted to increase.
But if we have racial passives in this game, then they better reflect the races as they are represented in the game's lore as closely as possible within the boundaries set by gameplay and balance. That's the point of having racial passives in the first place. You are meant to not only read about the physiology of the races but experience it in action as you play. If the racial passives don't reflect the lore, then the race choice might as well be purely cosmetic, because the boni don't actually mean anything. And if the game requires a system to grant you buffs for balance, you can turn that into a "choose your destiny" at the start of the game where you can pick if you want to be stealthy, magical or tough. That would do players a greater favor than adding racials that are completely disconnected from the source material.

Cundu_Ertur

Ogou wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Ogou wrote: »

Koronach wrote: »

Ogou wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Marginis wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Marginis wrote: »

I may be in the minority but I think the stealth passive was just redundant. Perhaps Bosmer need something better than what ZOS gave them with the last racial passive changes, but I still like the idea that it's something unique to them.

Then take all magicka bonus from Altmer and Dunmer, it's redundant with Bretons. Take all weapon bonuses from every race but Orcs, it's redundant. Take all stamina bonuses from every race but Redguards, it's redundant.

Having one, and only one, race with bonuses to magic is obviously silly; having one, and only one, race with bonuses to combat is equally silly. How is it not just as silly to have one, and only one, race with any bonus to thieving?

You're way oversimplifying. Altmer have higher magicka power than any other race, where bretons have historically focused on recovery or resistance to magicka, and Dunmer in ESO have a niche of getting bonuses to both magicka and stamina where the other races focus more on one or the other. Saying they're all the same because they all give magicka bonuses is like saying Redguards and Orcs are the same because they both give stamina bonuses. Give Bosmer something unique having to do with stealth, instead of just giving them the exact same stealth bonus as Khajiit because you personally want that bonus back.

What I was saying is not that their detection is the best way to accomplish this, but the theory is in my opinion solid. Give them a unique crit or flanking bonus, and make the Khajiit stealth passive more unique to thieving or something, as an example. It doesn't mean we need to scrap everything and just go back to the way things were just because the current Bosmer passive isn't the most applicable to your playstyle or the current meta. Who knows, maybe some players really like having another tool to stop those nightblade gankers in PVP.

@Marginis I don't think that's an oversimplification at all. This is exactly what was done. We had two stealth races before, now we only have one and one that's accidentally a bit better at sneaking (Imperial).
If ZOS gave us anything actively stealth related, say reduced sneak cost, we'd already be happy, because they acknowledge the series' lore.
Or at least we'd be happier than now. In ESO, stealth radius is the single most important stat for being a sneaky character. Sneak speed comes second and sneak cost comes in third. Give us any of those and we won't have to make an extra gear or vampirism investment. They can easily change it like that without hurting dps charts while adding flavor and keeping the "uniqueness" that ZOS praises so much.

ZOS had the option to give any of those passives to Bosmer instead of detection. That is the main problem. Bosmer are supposedly one of the most naturally gifted sneaks in Tamriel and racial passives should reflect that if stealth is a thing that exists in ESO. If the racial passives don't reflect the lore, then they are arbitrary and have no reason for being in the first place. They replaced being better at hiding with nothing. And yes, detection is nothing, even in PvP. I can explain that to you in detail if you want. But it should also not be glossed over the fact that one of the goals ZOS stated was that the passives should become more universally applicable and a passive that is only good in PvP and serves ABSOLUTELY NO PURPOSE in PvE is not what I would call "universally applicable".
We are not mad because the meta shifted away from out builds, we are mad because ZOS kicked 25 years of lore in the dirt and balanced against player expectations. That is why this is comparable. If you choose an Altmer to be good at magic because the lore says so, and then ZOS takes magic away from them completely, then you have every right to be upset and demand it back.

Just want to add that because the detect has no purpose is the reason you the second part of the Hunter's eye passive (the rolly poly part). So I'm pretty sure that from ZOS' point of view the "universally applicable" goal is achieved.

The goal to preserve established lore in the game has been utterly failed though.

If you say so? Not the first time this has happened and it's probably not going to be the last either?

Actually, yes this is the first time, ever, that Bosmer have no bonus to sneaking and no bonus to any thieving skill.

I meant it's not the first time that there was some disconnection between gameplay and lore.

When the devs claim that adhering to lore is a primary goal in the document announcing these changes and then congratulate themselves on making such amazingly lore-guided changes in a stream broadcast afterwards, then they open themselves up for this. They need to either 1: admit the lore is crap they can't be bothered with or 2: acknowledge where they got the lore wrong and explain how they'll fix it. As it stands they demonstrate that the lore is crap they can't be bothered with while simultaneously congratulating themselves on how amazingly lore compliant they're being.

Koronach

Ogou wrote: »

Koronach wrote: »

Ogou wrote: »

Koronach wrote: »

Ogou wrote: »

Koronach wrote: »

Ogou wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Marginis wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Marginis wrote: »

I may be in the minority but I think the stealth passive was just redundant. Perhaps Bosmer need something better than what ZOS gave them with the last racial passive changes, but I still like the idea that it's something unique to them.

Then take all magicka bonus from Altmer and Dunmer, it's redundant with Bretons. Take all weapon bonuses from every race but Orcs, it's redundant. Take all stamina bonuses from every race but Redguards, it's redundant.

Having one, and only one, race with bonuses to magic is obviously silly; having one, and only one, race with bonuses to combat is equally silly. How is it not just as silly to have one, and only one, race with any bonus to thieving?

You're way oversimplifying. Altmer have higher magicka power than any other race, where bretons have historically focused on recovery or resistance to magicka, and Dunmer in ESO have a niche of getting bonuses to both magicka and stamina where the other races focus more on one or the other. Saying they're all the same because they all give magicka bonuses is like saying Redguards and Orcs are the same because they both give stamina bonuses. Give Bosmer something unique having to do with stealth, instead of just giving them the exact same stealth bonus as Khajiit because you personally want that bonus back.

What I was saying is not that their detection is the best way to accomplish this, but the theory is in my opinion solid. Give them a unique crit or flanking bonus, and make the Khajiit stealth passive more unique to thieving or something, as an example. It doesn't mean we need to scrap everything and just go back to the way things were just because the current Bosmer passive isn't the most applicable to your playstyle or the current meta. Who knows, maybe some players really like having another tool to stop those nightblade gankers in PVP.

@Marginis I don't think that's an oversimplification at all. This is exactly what was done. We had two stealth races before, now we only have one and one that's accidentally a bit better at sneaking (Imperial).
If ZOS gave us anything actively stealth related, say reduced sneak cost, we'd already be happy, because they acknowledge the series' lore.
Or at least we'd be happier than now. In ESO, stealth radius is the single most important stat for being a sneaky character. Sneak speed comes second and sneak cost comes in third. Give us any of those and we won't have to make an extra gear or vampirism investment. They can easily change it like that without hurting dps charts while adding flavor and keeping the "uniqueness" that ZOS praises so much.

ZOS had the option to give any of those passives to Bosmer instead of detection. That is the main problem. Bosmer are supposedly one of the most naturally gifted sneaks in Tamriel and racial passives should reflect that if stealth is a thing that exists in ESO. If the racial passives don't reflect the lore, then they are arbitrary and have no reason for being in the first place. They replaced being better at hiding with nothing. And yes, detection is nothing, even in PvP. I can explain that to you in detail if you want. But it should also not be glossed over the fact that one of the goals ZOS stated was that the passives should become more universally applicable and a passive that is only good in PvP and serves ABSOLUTELY NO PURPOSE in PvE is not what I would call "universally applicable".
We are not mad because the meta shifted away from out builds, we are mad because ZOS kicked 25 years of lore in the dirt and balanced against player expectations. That is why this is comparable. If you choose an Altmer to be good at magic because the lore says so, and then ZOS takes magic away from them completely, then you have every right to be upset and demand it back.

Just want to add that because the detect has no purpose is the reason you the second part of the Hunter's eye passive (the rolly poly part). So I'm pretty sure that from ZOS' point of view the "universally applicable" goal is achieved.

The goal to preserve established lore in the game has been utterly failed though.

If you say so? Not the first time this has happened and it's probably not going to be the last either?

Of course you can't defend ZoS on that because they utterly failed in that goal, just like I said. So you just post two questions because you don't know what to say.

I'm not sure where you get the idea that I am trying to defend ZOS from. Your reply had nothing to do with my original comment so I didn't feel the need to disprove what you said.

My reply was to your reply to me, so not sure what you are even talking about now.

sigh

My original comment was:

Ogou wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Marginis wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Marginis wrote: »

I may be in the minority but I think the stealth passive was just redundant. Perhaps Bosmer need something better than what ZOS gave them with the last racial passive changes, but I still like the idea that it's something unique to them.

Then take all magicka bonus from Altmer and Dunmer, it's redundant with Bretons. Take all weapon bonuses from every race but Orcs, it's redundant. Take all stamina bonuses from every race but Redguards, it's redundant.

Having one, and only one, race with bonuses to magic is obviously silly; having one, and only one, race with bonuses to combat is equally silly. How is it not just as silly to have one, and only one, race with any bonus to thieving?

You're way oversimplifying. Altmer have higher magicka power than any other race, where bretons have historically focused on recovery or resistance to magicka, and Dunmer in ESO have a niche of getting bonuses to both magicka and stamina where the other races focus more on one or the other. Saying they're all the same because they all give magicka bonuses is like saying Redguards and Orcs are the same because they both give stamina bonuses. Give Bosmer something unique having to do with stealth, instead of just giving them the exact same stealth bonus as Khajiit because you personally want that bonus back.

What I was saying is not that their detection is the best way to accomplish this, but the theory is in my opinion solid. Give them a unique crit or flanking bonus, and make the Khajiit stealth passive more unique to thieving or something, as an example. It doesn't mean we need to scrap everything and just go back to the way things were just because the current Bosmer passive isn't the most applicable to your playstyle or the current meta. Who knows, maybe some players really like having another tool to stop those nightblade gankers in PVP.

@Marginis I don't think that's an oversimplification at all. This is exactly what was done. We had two stealth races before, now we only have one and one that's accidentally a bit better at sneaking (Imperial).
If ZOS gave us anything actively stealth related, say reduced sneak cost, we'd already be happy, because they acknowledge the series' lore.
Or at least we'd be happier than now. In ESO, stealth radius is the single most important stat for being a sneaky character. Sneak speed comes second and sneak cost comes in third. Give us any of those and we won't have to make an extra gear or vampirism investment. They can easily change it like that without hurting dps charts while adding flavor and keeping the "uniqueness" that ZOS praises so much.

ZOS had the option to give any of those passives to Bosmer instead of detection. That is the main problem. Bosmer are supposedly one of the most naturally gifted sneaks in Tamriel and racial passives should reflect that if stealth is a thing that exists in ESO. If the racial passives don't reflect the lore, then they are arbitrary and have no reason for being in the first place. They replaced being better at hiding with nothing. And yes, detection is nothing, even in PvP. I can explain that to you in detail if you want. But it should also not be glossed over the fact that one of the goals ZOS stated was that the passives should become more universally applicable and a passive that is only good in PvP and serves ABSOLUTELY NO PURPOSE in PvE is not what I would call "universally applicable".
We are not mad because the meta shifted away from out builds, we are mad because ZOS kicked 25 years of lore in the dirt and balanced against player expectations. That is why this is comparable. If you choose an Altmer to be good at magic because the lore says so, and then ZOS takes magic away from them completely, then you have every right to be upset and demand it back.

Just want to add that because the detect has no purpose is the reason you the second part of the Hunter's eye passive (the rolly poly part). So I'm pretty sure that from ZOS' point of view the "universally applicable" goal is achieved.

To which you replied:

Koronach wrote: »

Ogou wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Marginis wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Marginis wrote: »

I may be in the minority but I think the stealth passive was just redundant. Perhaps Bosmer need something better than what ZOS gave them with the last racial passive changes, but I still like the idea that it's something unique to them.

Then take all magicka bonus from Altmer and Dunmer, it's redundant with Bretons. Take all weapon bonuses from every race but Orcs, it's redundant. Take all stamina bonuses from every race but Redguards, it's redundant.

Having one, and only one, race with bonuses to magic is obviously silly; having one, and only one, race with bonuses to combat is equally silly. How is it not just as silly to have one, and only one, race with any bonus to thieving?

You're way oversimplifying. Altmer have higher magicka power than any other race, where bretons have historically focused on recovery or resistance to magicka, and Dunmer in ESO have a niche of getting bonuses to both magicka and stamina where the other races focus more on one or the other. Saying they're all the same because they all give magicka bonuses is like saying Redguards and Orcs are the same because they both give stamina bonuses. Give Bosmer something unique having to do with stealth, instead of just giving them the exact same stealth bonus as Khajiit because you personally want that bonus back.

What I was saying is not that their detection is the best way to accomplish this, but the theory is in my opinion solid. Give them a unique crit or flanking bonus, and make the Khajiit stealth passive more unique to thieving or something, as an example. It doesn't mean we need to scrap everything and just go back to the way things were just because the current Bosmer passive isn't the most applicable to your playstyle or the current meta. Who knows, maybe some players really like having another tool to stop those nightblade gankers in PVP.

@Marginis I don't think that's an oversimplification at all. This is exactly what was done. We had two stealth races before, now we only have one and one that's accidentally a bit better at sneaking (Imperial).
If ZOS gave us anything actively stealth related, say reduced sneak cost, we'd already be happy, because they acknowledge the series' lore.
Or at least we'd be happier than now. In ESO, stealth radius is the single most important stat for being a sneaky character. Sneak speed comes second and sneak cost comes in third. Give us any of those and we won't have to make an extra gear or vampirism investment. They can easily change it like that without hurting dps charts while adding flavor and keeping the "uniqueness" that ZOS praises so much.

ZOS had the option to give any of those passives to Bosmer instead of detection. That is the main problem. Bosmer are supposedly one of the most naturally gifted sneaks in Tamriel and racial passives should reflect that if stealth is a thing that exists in ESO. If the racial passives don't reflect the lore, then they are arbitrary and have no reason for being in the first place. They replaced being better at hiding with nothing. And yes, detection is nothing, even in PvP. I can explain that to you in detail if you want. But it should also not be glossed over the fact that one of the goals ZOS stated was that the passives should become more universally applicable and a passive that is only good in PvP and serves ABSOLUTELY NO PURPOSE in PvE is not what I would call "universally applicable".
We are not mad because the meta shifted away from out builds, we are mad because ZOS kicked 25 years of lore in the dirt and balanced against player expectations. That is why this is comparable. If you choose an Altmer to be good at magic because the lore says so, and then ZOS takes magic away from them completely, then you have every right to be upset and demand it back.

Just want to add that because the detect has no purpose is the reason you the second part of the Hunter's eye passive (the rolly poly part). So I'm pretty sure that from ZOS' point of view the "universally applicable" goal is achieved.

The goal to preserve established lore in the game has been utterly failed though.

I never said anything about ZOS achieving their goal to preserve established lore and I don't know why you expect me to defend a point I never made.

My response was to this

Ogou wrote: »

If you say so? Not the first time this has happened and it's probably not going to be the last either?

Alucardmike

I can't stop a subscriptiion, because I never had one...

So I stop playing the game. Only once a week, I am selling stuff, that I will not get kicked off the guilds...

Ogou

Koronach wrote: »

Ogou wrote: »

Koronach wrote: »

Ogou wrote: »

Koronach wrote: »

Ogou wrote: »

Koronach wrote: »

Ogou wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Marginis wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Marginis wrote: »

I may be in the minority but I think the stealth passive was just redundant. Perhaps Bosmer need something better than what ZOS gave them with the last racial passive changes, but I still like the idea that it's something unique to them.

Then take all magicka bonus from Altmer and Dunmer, it's redundant with Bretons. Take all weapon bonuses from every race but Orcs, it's redundant. Take all stamina bonuses from every race but Redguards, it's redundant.

Having one, and only one, race with bonuses to magic is obviously silly; having one, and only one, race with bonuses to combat is equally silly. How is it not just as silly to have one, and only one, race with any bonus to thieving?

You're way oversimplifying. Altmer have higher magicka power than any other race, where bretons have historically focused on recovery or resistance to magicka, and Dunmer in ESO have a niche of getting bonuses to both magicka and stamina where the other races focus more on one or the other. Saying they're all the same because they all give magicka bonuses is like saying Redguards and Orcs are the same because they both give stamina bonuses. Give Bosmer something unique having to do with stealth, instead of just giving them the exact same stealth bonus as Khajiit because you personally want that bonus back.

What I was saying is not that their detection is the best way to accomplish this, but the theory is in my opinion solid. Give them a unique crit or flanking bonus, and make the Khajiit stealth passive more unique to thieving or something, as an example. It doesn't mean we need to scrap everything and just go back to the way things were just because the current Bosmer passive isn't the most applicable to your playstyle or the current meta. Who knows, maybe some players really like having another tool to stop those nightblade gankers in PVP.

@Marginis I don't think that's an oversimplification at all. This is exactly what was done. We had two stealth races before, now we only have one and one that's accidentally a bit better at sneaking (Imperial).
If ZOS gave us anything actively stealth related, say reduced sneak cost, we'd already be happy, because they acknowledge the series' lore.
Or at least we'd be happier than now. In ESO, stealth radius is the single most important stat for being a sneaky character. Sneak speed comes second and sneak cost comes in third. Give us any of those and we won't have to make an extra gear or vampirism investment. They can easily change it like that without hurting dps charts while adding flavor and keeping the "uniqueness" that ZOS praises so much.

ZOS had the option to give any of those passives to Bosmer instead of detection. That is the main problem. Bosmer are supposedly one of the most naturally gifted sneaks in Tamriel and racial passives should reflect that if stealth is a thing that exists in ESO. If the racial passives don't reflect the lore, then they are arbitrary and have no reason for being in the first place. They replaced being better at hiding with nothing. And yes, detection is nothing, even in PvP. I can explain that to you in detail if you want. But it should also not be glossed over the fact that one of the goals ZOS stated was that the passives should become more universally applicable and a passive that is only good in PvP and serves ABSOLUTELY NO PURPOSE in PvE is not what I would call "universally applicable".
We are not mad because the meta shifted away from out builds, we are mad because ZOS kicked 25 years of lore in the dirt and balanced against player expectations. That is why this is comparable. If you choose an Altmer to be good at magic because the lore says so, and then ZOS takes magic away from them completely, then you have every right to be upset and demand it back.

Just want to add that because the detect has no purpose is the reason you the second part of the Hunter's eye passive (the rolly poly part). So I'm pretty sure that from ZOS' point of view the "universally applicable" goal is achieved.

The goal to preserve established lore in the game has been utterly failed though.

If you say so? Not the first time this has happened and it's probably not going to be the last either?

Of course you can't defend ZoS on that because they utterly failed in that goal, just like I said. So you just post two questions because you don't know what to say.

I'm not sure where you get the idea that I am trying to defend ZOS from. Your reply had nothing to do with my original comment so I didn't feel the need to disprove what you said.

My reply was to your reply to me, so not sure what you are even talking about now.

sigh

My original comment was:

Ogou wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Marginis wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Marginis wrote: »

I may be in the minority but I think the stealth passive was just redundant. Perhaps Bosmer need something better than what ZOS gave them with the last racial passive changes, but I still like the idea that it's something unique to them.

Then take all magicka bonus from Altmer and Dunmer, it's redundant with Bretons. Take all weapon bonuses from every race but Orcs, it's redundant. Take all stamina bonuses from every race but Redguards, it's redundant.

Having one, and only one, race with bonuses to magic is obviously silly; having one, and only one, race with bonuses to combat is equally silly. How is it not just as silly to have one, and only one, race with any bonus to thieving?

You're way oversimplifying. Altmer have higher magicka power than any other race, where bretons have historically focused on recovery or resistance to magicka, and Dunmer in ESO have a niche of getting bonuses to both magicka and stamina where the other races focus more on one or the other. Saying they're all the same because they all give magicka bonuses is like saying Redguards and Orcs are the same because they both give stamina bonuses. Give Bosmer something unique having to do with stealth, instead of just giving them the exact same stealth bonus as Khajiit because you personally want that bonus back.

What I was saying is not that their detection is the best way to accomplish this, but the theory is in my opinion solid. Give them a unique crit or flanking bonus, and make the Khajiit stealth passive more unique to thieving or something, as an example. It doesn't mean we need to scrap everything and just go back to the way things were just because the current Bosmer passive isn't the most applicable to your playstyle or the current meta. Who knows, maybe some players really like having another tool to stop those nightblade gankers in PVP.

@Marginis I don't think that's an oversimplification at all. This is exactly what was done. We had two stealth races before, now we only have one and one that's accidentally a bit better at sneaking (Imperial).
If ZOS gave us anything actively stealth related, say reduced sneak cost, we'd already be happy, because they acknowledge the series' lore.
Or at least we'd be happier than now. In ESO, stealth radius is the single most important stat for being a sneaky character. Sneak speed comes second and sneak cost comes in third. Give us any of those and we won't have to make an extra gear or vampirism investment. They can easily change it like that without hurting dps charts while adding flavor and keeping the "uniqueness" that ZOS praises so much.

ZOS had the option to give any of those passives to Bosmer instead of detection. That is the main problem. Bosmer are supposedly one of the most naturally gifted sneaks in Tamriel and racial passives should reflect that if stealth is a thing that exists in ESO. If the racial passives don't reflect the lore, then they are arbitrary and have no reason for being in the first place. They replaced being better at hiding with nothing. And yes, detection is nothing, even in PvP. I can explain that to you in detail if you want. But it should also not be glossed over the fact that one of the goals ZOS stated was that the passives should become more universally applicable and a passive that is only good in PvP and serves ABSOLUTELY NO PURPOSE in PvE is not what I would call "universally applicable".
We are not mad because the meta shifted away from out builds, we are mad because ZOS kicked 25 years of lore in the dirt and balanced against player expectations. That is why this is comparable. If you choose an Altmer to be good at magic because the lore says so, and then ZOS takes magic away from them completely, then you have every right to be upset and demand it back.

Just want to add that because the detect has no purpose is the reason you the second part of the Hunter's eye passive (the rolly poly part). So I'm pretty sure that from ZOS' point of view the "universally applicable" goal is achieved.

To which you replied:

Koronach wrote: »

Ogou wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Marginis wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Marginis wrote: »

I may be in the minority but I think the stealth passive was just redundant. Perhaps Bosmer need something better than what ZOS gave them with the last racial passive changes, but I still like the idea that it's something unique to them.

Then take all magicka bonus from Altmer and Dunmer, it's redundant with Bretons. Take all weapon bonuses from every race but Orcs, it's redundant. Take all stamina bonuses from every race but Redguards, it's redundant.

Having one, and only one, race with bonuses to magic is obviously silly; having one, and only one, race with bonuses to combat is equally silly. How is it not just as silly to have one, and only one, race with any bonus to thieving?

You're way oversimplifying. Altmer have higher magicka power than any other race, where bretons have historically focused on recovery or resistance to magicka, and Dunmer in ESO have a niche of getting bonuses to both magicka and stamina where the other races focus more on one or the other. Saying they're all the same because they all give magicka bonuses is like saying Redguards and Orcs are the same because they both give stamina bonuses. Give Bosmer something unique having to do with stealth, instead of just giving them the exact same stealth bonus as Khajiit because you personally want that bonus back.

What I was saying is not that their detection is the best way to accomplish this, but the theory is in my opinion solid. Give them a unique crit or flanking bonus, and make the Khajiit stealth passive more unique to thieving or something, as an example. It doesn't mean we need to scrap everything and just go back to the way things were just because the current Bosmer passive isn't the most applicable to your playstyle or the current meta. Who knows, maybe some players really like having another tool to stop those nightblade gankers in PVP.

@Marginis I don't think that's an oversimplification at all. This is exactly what was done. We had two stealth races before, now we only have one and one that's accidentally a bit better at sneaking (Imperial).
If ZOS gave us anything actively stealth related, say reduced sneak cost, we'd already be happy, because they acknowledge the series' lore.
Or at least we'd be happier than now. In ESO, stealth radius is the single most important stat for being a sneaky character. Sneak speed comes second and sneak cost comes in third. Give us any of those and we won't have to make an extra gear or vampirism investment. They can easily change it like that without hurting dps charts while adding flavor and keeping the "uniqueness" that ZOS praises so much.

ZOS had the option to give any of those passives to Bosmer instead of detection. That is the main problem. Bosmer are supposedly one of the most naturally gifted sneaks in Tamriel and racial passives should reflect that if stealth is a thing that exists in ESO. If the racial passives don't reflect the lore, then they are arbitrary and have no reason for being in the first place. They replaced being better at hiding with nothing. And yes, detection is nothing, even in PvP. I can explain that to you in detail if you want. But it should also not be glossed over the fact that one of the goals ZOS stated was that the passives should become more universally applicable and a passive that is only good in PvP and serves ABSOLUTELY NO PURPOSE in PvE is not what I would call "universally applicable".
We are not mad because the meta shifted away from out builds, we are mad because ZOS kicked 25 years of lore in the dirt and balanced against player expectations. That is why this is comparable. If you choose an Altmer to be good at magic because the lore says so, and then ZOS takes magic away from them completely, then you have every right to be upset and demand it back.

Just want to add that because the detect has no purpose is the reason you the second part of the Hunter's eye passive (the rolly poly part). So I'm pretty sure that from ZOS' point of view the "universally applicable" goal is achieved.

The goal to preserve established lore in the game has been utterly failed though.

I never said anything about ZOS achieving their goal to preserve established lore and I don't know why you expect me to defend a point I never made.

My response was to this

Ogou wrote: »

If you say so? Not the first time this has happened and it's probably not going to be the last either?

I give up.

Ogou

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Ogou wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Ogou wrote: »

Koronach wrote: »

Ogou wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Marginis wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Marginis wrote: »

I may be in the minority but I think the stealth passive was just redundant. Perhaps Bosmer need something better than what ZOS gave them with the last racial passive changes, but I still like the idea that it's something unique to them.

Then take all magicka bonus from Altmer and Dunmer, it's redundant with Bretons. Take all weapon bonuses from every race but Orcs, it's redundant. Take all stamina bonuses from every race but Redguards, it's redundant.

Having one, and only one, race with bonuses to magic is obviously silly; having one, and only one, race with bonuses to combat is equally silly. How is it not just as silly to have one, and only one, race with any bonus to thieving?

You're way oversimplifying. Altmer have higher magicka power than any other race, where bretons have historically focused on recovery or resistance to magicka, and Dunmer in ESO have a niche of getting bonuses to both magicka and stamina where the other races focus more on one or the other. Saying they're all the same because they all give magicka bonuses is like saying Redguards and Orcs are the same because they both give stamina bonuses. Give Bosmer something unique having to do with stealth, instead of just giving them the exact same stealth bonus as Khajiit because you personally want that bonus back.

What I was saying is not that their detection is the best way to accomplish this, but the theory is in my opinion solid. Give them a unique crit or flanking bonus, and make the Khajiit stealth passive more unique to thieving or something, as an example. It doesn't mean we need to scrap everything and just go back to the way things were just because the current Bosmer passive isn't the most applicable to your playstyle or the current meta. Who knows, maybe some players really like having another tool to stop those nightblade gankers in PVP.

@Marginis I don't think that's an oversimplification at all. This is exactly what was done. We had two stealth races before, now we only have one and one that's accidentally a bit better at sneaking (Imperial).
If ZOS gave us anything actively stealth related, say reduced sneak cost, we'd already be happy, because they acknowledge the series' lore.
Or at least we'd be happier than now. In ESO, stealth radius is the single most important stat for being a sneaky character. Sneak speed comes second and sneak cost comes in third. Give us any of those and we won't have to make an extra gear or vampirism investment. They can easily change it like that without hurting dps charts while adding flavor and keeping the "uniqueness" that ZOS praises so much.

ZOS had the option to give any of those passives to Bosmer instead of detection. That is the main problem. Bosmer are supposedly one of the most naturally gifted sneaks in Tamriel and racial passives should reflect that if stealth is a thing that exists in ESO. If the racial passives don't reflect the lore, then they are arbitrary and have no reason for being in the first place. They replaced being better at hiding with nothing. And yes, detection is nothing, even in PvP. I can explain that to you in detail if you want. But it should also not be glossed over the fact that one of the goals ZOS stated was that the passives should become more universally applicable and a passive that is only good in PvP and serves ABSOLUTELY NO PURPOSE in PvE is not what I would call "universally applicable".
We are not mad because the meta shifted away from out builds, we are mad because ZOS kicked 25 years of lore in the dirt and balanced against player expectations. That is why this is comparable. If you choose an Altmer to be good at magic because the lore says so, and then ZOS takes magic away from them completely, then you have every right to be upset and demand it back.

Just want to add that because the detect has no purpose is the reason you the second part of the Hunter's eye passive (the rolly poly part). So I'm pretty sure that from ZOS' point of view the "universally applicable" goal is achieved.

The goal to preserve established lore in the game has been utterly failed though.

If you say so? Not the first time this has happened and it's probably not going to be the last either?

Actually, yes this is the first time, ever, that Bosmer have no bonus to sneaking and no bonus to any thieving skill.

I meant it's not the first time that there was some disconnection between gameplay and lore.

When the devs claim that adhering to lore is a primary goal in the document announcing these changes and then congratulate themselves on making such amazingly lore-guided changes in a stream broadcast afterwards, then they open themselves up for this. They need to either 1: admit the lore is crap they can't be bothered with or 2: acknowledge where they got the lore wrong and explain how they'll fix it. As it stands they demonstrate that the lore is crap they can't be bothered with while simultaneously congratulating themselves on how amazingly lore compliant they're being.

I totally agree. I just don't actually expect them to do either of these 2 things.

Koronach

Ogou wrote: »

Koronach wrote: »

Ogou wrote: »

Koronach wrote: »

Ogou wrote: »

Koronach wrote: »

Ogou wrote: »

Koronach wrote: »

Ogou wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Marginis wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Marginis wrote: »

I may be in the minority but I think the stealth passive was just redundant. Perhaps Bosmer need something better than what ZOS gave them with the last racial passive changes, but I still like the idea that it's something unique to them.

Then take all magicka bonus from Altmer and Dunmer, it's redundant with Bretons. Take all weapon bonuses from every race but Orcs, it's redundant. Take all stamina bonuses from every race but Redguards, it's redundant.

Having one, and only one, race with bonuses to magic is obviously silly; having one, and only one, race with bonuses to combat is equally silly. How is it not just as silly to have one, and only one, race with any bonus to thieving?

You're way oversimplifying. Altmer have higher magicka power than any other race, where bretons have historically focused on recovery or resistance to magicka, and Dunmer in ESO have a niche of getting bonuses to both magicka and stamina where the other races focus more on one or the other. Saying they're all the same because they all give magicka bonuses is like saying Redguards and Orcs are the same because they both give stamina bonuses. Give Bosmer something unique having to do with stealth, instead of just giving them the exact same stealth bonus as Khajiit because you personally want that bonus back.

What I was saying is not that their detection is the best way to accomplish this, but the theory is in my opinion solid. Give them a unique crit or flanking bonus, and make the Khajiit stealth passive more unique to thieving or something, as an example. It doesn't mean we need to scrap everything and just go back to the way things were just because the current Bosmer passive isn't the most applicable to your playstyle or the current meta. Who knows, maybe some players really like having another tool to stop those nightblade gankers in PVP.

@Marginis I don't think that's an oversimplification at all. This is exactly what was done. We had two stealth races before, now we only have one and one that's accidentally a bit better at sneaking (Imperial).
If ZOS gave us anything actively stealth related, say reduced sneak cost, we'd already be happy, because they acknowledge the series' lore.
Or at least we'd be happier than now. In ESO, stealth radius is the single most important stat for being a sneaky character. Sneak speed comes second and sneak cost comes in third. Give us any of those and we won't have to make an extra gear or vampirism investment. They can easily change it like that without hurting dps charts while adding flavor and keeping the "uniqueness" that ZOS praises so much.

ZOS had the option to give any of those passives to Bosmer instead of detection. That is the main problem. Bosmer are supposedly one of the most naturally gifted sneaks in Tamriel and racial passives should reflect that if stealth is a thing that exists in ESO. If the racial passives don't reflect the lore, then they are arbitrary and have no reason for being in the first place. They replaced being better at hiding with nothing. And yes, detection is nothing, even in PvP. I can explain that to you in detail if you want. But it should also not be glossed over the fact that one of the goals ZOS stated was that the passives should become more universally applicable and a passive that is only good in PvP and serves ABSOLUTELY NO PURPOSE in PvE is not what I would call "universally applicable".
We are not mad because the meta shifted away from out builds, we are mad because ZOS kicked 25 years of lore in the dirt and balanced against player expectations. That is why this is comparable. If you choose an Altmer to be good at magic because the lore says so, and then ZOS takes magic away from them completely, then you have every right to be upset and demand it back.

Just want to add that because the detect has no purpose is the reason you the second part of the Hunter's eye passive (the rolly poly part). So I'm pretty sure that from ZOS' point of view the "universally applicable" goal is achieved.

The goal to preserve established lore in the game has been utterly failed though.

If you say so? Not the first time this has happened and it's probably not going to be the last either?

Of course you can't defend ZoS on that because they utterly failed in that goal, just like I said. So you just post two questions because you don't know what to say.

I'm not sure where you get the idea that I am trying to defend ZOS from. Your reply had nothing to do with my original comment so I didn't feel the need to disprove what you said.

My reply was to your reply to me, so not sure what you are even talking about now.

sigh

My original comment was:

Ogou wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Marginis wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Marginis wrote: »

I may be in the minority but I think the stealth passive was just redundant. Perhaps Bosmer need something better than what ZOS gave them with the last racial passive changes, but I still like the idea that it's something unique to them.

Then take all magicka bonus from Altmer and Dunmer, it's redundant with Bretons. Take all weapon bonuses from every race but Orcs, it's redundant. Take all stamina bonuses from every race but Redguards, it's redundant.

Having one, and only one, race with bonuses to magic is obviously silly; having one, and only one, race with bonuses to combat is equally silly. How is it not just as silly to have one, and only one, race with any bonus to thieving?

You're way oversimplifying. Altmer have higher magicka power than any other race, where bretons have historically focused on recovery or resistance to magicka, and Dunmer in ESO have a niche of getting bonuses to both magicka and stamina where the other races focus more on one or the other. Saying they're all the same because they all give magicka bonuses is like saying Redguards and Orcs are the same because they both give stamina bonuses. Give Bosmer something unique having to do with stealth, instead of just giving them the exact same stealth bonus as Khajiit because you personally want that bonus back.

What I was saying is not that their detection is the best way to accomplish this, but the theory is in my opinion solid. Give them a unique crit or flanking bonus, and make the Khajiit stealth passive more unique to thieving or something, as an example. It doesn't mean we need to scrap everything and just go back to the way things were just because the current Bosmer passive isn't the most applicable to your playstyle or the current meta. Who knows, maybe some players really like having another tool to stop those nightblade gankers in PVP.

@Marginis I don't think that's an oversimplification at all. This is exactly what was done. We had two stealth races before, now we only have one and one that's accidentally a bit better at sneaking (Imperial).
If ZOS gave us anything actively stealth related, say reduced sneak cost, we'd already be happy, because they acknowledge the series' lore.
Or at least we'd be happier than now. In ESO, stealth radius is the single most important stat for being a sneaky character. Sneak speed comes second and sneak cost comes in third. Give us any of those and we won't have to make an extra gear or vampirism investment. They can easily change it like that without hurting dps charts while adding flavor and keeping the "uniqueness" that ZOS praises so much.

ZOS had the option to give any of those passives to Bosmer instead of detection. That is the main problem. Bosmer are supposedly one of the most naturally gifted sneaks in Tamriel and racial passives should reflect that if stealth is a thing that exists in ESO. If the racial passives don't reflect the lore, then they are arbitrary and have no reason for being in the first place. They replaced being better at hiding with nothing. And yes, detection is nothing, even in PvP. I can explain that to you in detail if you want. But it should also not be glossed over the fact that one of the goals ZOS stated was that the passives should become more universally applicable and a passive that is only good in PvP and serves ABSOLUTELY NO PURPOSE in PvE is not what I would call "universally applicable".
We are not mad because the meta shifted away from out builds, we are mad because ZOS kicked 25 years of lore in the dirt and balanced against player expectations. That is why this is comparable. If you choose an Altmer to be good at magic because the lore says so, and then ZOS takes magic away from them completely, then you have every right to be upset and demand it back.

Just want to add that because the detect has no purpose is the reason you the second part of the Hunter's eye passive (the rolly poly part). So I'm pretty sure that from ZOS' point of view the "universally applicable" goal is achieved.

To which you replied:

Koronach wrote: »

Ogou wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Marginis wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Marginis wrote: »

I may be in the minority but I think the stealth passive was just redundant. Perhaps Bosmer need something better than what ZOS gave them with the last racial passive changes, but I still like the idea that it's something unique to them.

Then take all magicka bonus from Altmer and Dunmer, it's redundant with Bretons. Take all weapon bonuses from every race but Orcs, it's redundant. Take all stamina bonuses from every race but Redguards, it's redundant.

Having one, and only one, race with bonuses to magic is obviously silly; having one, and only one, race with bonuses to combat is equally silly. How is it not just as silly to have one, and only one, race with any bonus to thieving?

You're way oversimplifying. Altmer have higher magicka power than any other race, where bretons have historically focused on recovery or resistance to magicka, and Dunmer in ESO have a niche of getting bonuses to both magicka and stamina where the other races focus more on one or the other. Saying they're all the same because they all give magicka bonuses is like saying Redguards and Orcs are the same because they both give stamina bonuses. Give Bosmer something unique having to do with stealth, instead of just giving them the exact same stealth bonus as Khajiit because you personally want that bonus back.

What I was saying is not that their detection is the best way to accomplish this, but the theory is in my opinion solid. Give them a unique crit or flanking bonus, and make the Khajiit stealth passive more unique to thieving or something, as an example. It doesn't mean we need to scrap everything and just go back to the way things were just because the current Bosmer passive isn't the most applicable to your playstyle or the current meta. Who knows, maybe some players really like having another tool to stop those nightblade gankers in PVP.

@Marginis I don't think that's an oversimplification at all. This is exactly what was done. We had two stealth races before, now we only have one and one that's accidentally a bit better at sneaking (Imperial).
If ZOS gave us anything actively stealth related, say reduced sneak cost, we'd already be happy, because they acknowledge the series' lore.
Or at least we'd be happier than now. In ESO, stealth radius is the single most important stat for being a sneaky character. Sneak speed comes second and sneak cost comes in third. Give us any of those and we won't have to make an extra gear or vampirism investment. They can easily change it like that without hurting dps charts while adding flavor and keeping the "uniqueness" that ZOS praises so much.

ZOS had the option to give any of those passives to Bosmer instead of detection. That is the main problem. Bosmer are supposedly one of the most naturally gifted sneaks in Tamriel and racial passives should reflect that if stealth is a thing that exists in ESO. If the racial passives don't reflect the lore, then they are arbitrary and have no reason for being in the first place. They replaced being better at hiding with nothing. And yes, detection is nothing, even in PvP. I can explain that to you in detail if you want. But it should also not be glossed over the fact that one of the goals ZOS stated was that the passives should become more universally applicable and a passive that is only good in PvP and serves ABSOLUTELY NO PURPOSE in PvE is not what I would call "universally applicable".
We are not mad because the meta shifted away from out builds, we are mad because ZOS kicked 25 years of lore in the dirt and balanced against player expectations. That is why this is comparable. If you choose an Altmer to be good at magic because the lore says so, and then ZOS takes magic away from them completely, then you have every right to be upset and demand it back.

Just want to add that because the detect has no purpose is the reason you the second part of the Hunter's eye passive (the rolly poly part). So I'm pretty sure that from ZOS' point of view the "universally applicable" goal is achieved.

The goal to preserve established lore in the game has been utterly failed though.

I never said anything about ZOS achieving their goal to preserve established lore and I don't know why you expect me to defend a point I never made.

My response was to this

Ogou wrote: »

If you say so? Not the first time this has happened and it's probably not going to be the last either?

I give up.

Yeah same, since I have no idea what you are even trying to say in here.

Marginis

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Marginis wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Marginis wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Marginis wrote: »

I may be in the minority but I think the stealth passive was just redundant. Perhaps Bosmer need something better than what ZOS gave them with the last racial passive changes, but I still like the idea that it's something unique to them.

Then take all magicka bonus from Altmer and Dunmer, it's redundant with Bretons. Take all weapon bonuses from every race but Orcs, it's redundant. Take all stamina bonuses from every race but Redguards, it's redundant.

Having one, and only one, race with bonuses to magic is obviously silly; having one, and only one, race with bonuses to combat is equally silly. How is it not just as silly to have one, and only one, race with any bonus to thieving?

You're way oversimplifying. Altmer have higher magicka power than any other race, where bretons have historically focused on recovery or resistance to magicka, and Dunmer in ESO have a niche of getting bonuses to both magicka and stamina where the other races focus more on one or the other. Saying they're all the same because they all give magicka bonuses is like saying Redguards and Orcs are the same because they both give stamina bonuses. Give Bosmer something unique having to do with stealth, instead of just giving them the exact same stealth bonus as Khajiit because you personally want that bonus back.

What I was saying is not that their detection is the best way to accomplish this, but the theory is in my opinion solid. Give them a unique crit or flanking bonus, and make the Khajiit stealth passive more unique to thieving or something, as an example. It doesn't mean we need to scrap everything and just go back to the way things were just because the current Bosmer passive isn't the most applicable to your playstyle or the current meta. Who knows, maybe some players really like having another tool to stop those nightblade gankers in PVP.

@Marginis I don't think that's an oversimplification at all. This is exactly what was done. We had two stealth races before, now we only have one and one that's accidentally a bit better at sneaking (Imperial).
If ZOS gave us anything actively stealth related, say reduced sneak cost, we'd already be happy, because they acknowledge the series' lore.
Or at least we'd be happier than now. In ESO, stealth radius is the single most important stat for being a sneaky character. Sneak speed comes second and sneak cost comes in third. Give us any of those and we won't have to make an extra gear or vampirism investment. They can easily change it like that without hurting dps charts while adding flavor and keeping the "uniqueness" that ZOS praises so much.

ZOS had the option to give any of those passives to Bosmer instead of detection. That is the main problem. Bosmer are supposedly one of the most naturally gifted sneaks in Tamriel and racial passives should reflect that if stealth is a thing that exists in ESO. If the racial passives don't reflect the lore, then they are arbitrary and have no reason for being in the first place. They replaced being better at hiding with nothing. And yes, detection is nothing, even in PvP. I can explain that to you in detail if you want. But it should also not be glossed over the fact that one of the goals ZOS stated was that the passives should become more universally applicable and a passive that is only good in PvP and serves ABSOLUTELY NO PURPOSE in PvE is not what I would call "universally applicable".
We are not mad because the meta shifted away from out builds, we are mad because ZOS kicked 25 years of lore in the dirt and balanced against player expectations. That is why this is comparable. If you choose an Altmer to be good at magic because the lore says so, and then ZOS takes magic away from them completely, then you have every right to be upset and demand it back.

I'm not sure I'd agree that the lore is as trampled as you say, and I personally think that while lore is important (I lead a lore-friendly roleplay guild, afterall) I do think it takes a backseat to balance and gameplay. However, I absolutely agree that a different type of stealth bonus would be great. Sneak speed, sneak cost, maybe even something unique like brief invisibility upon activating sneak. I just think it's a boring and uninventive solution to just give the same boring bonus there was and take away the uniqueness from both Khajiit and Bosmer. Khajiit have always had their thing, but Bosmer deserve better than to just be a slightly more stamina focused Khajiit.

Yes, I agree it takes a backseat to balance and gameplay. But I'd say it only goes that far. I wouldn't be demanding stealth for Bosmer if stealth wasn't a thing in ESO. I am not demanding chameleon like skin and invisibility near plants, even if that would be in line with the lore. Stealth is gameplay in ESO after all and ZOS limited choice - the very thing they wanted to increase.
But if we have racial passives in this game, then they better reflect the races as they are represented in the game's lore as closely as possible within the boundaries set by gameplay and balance. That's the point of having racial passives in the first place. You are meant to not only read about the physiology of the races but experience it in action as you play. If the racial passives don't reflect the lore, then the race choice might as well be purely cosmetic, because the boni don't actually mean anything. And if the game requires a system to grant you buffs for balance, you can turn that into a "choose your destiny" at the start of the game where you can pick if you want to be stealthy, magical or tough. That would do players a greater favor than adding racials that are completely disconnected from the source material.

Your suggestion of a "choose your destiny" mechanic is actually something I suggested some time ago, and I think would go a long way to alleviating some of these racial passive issues the community has. As far as the discussion there and in other posts went, however, most people seem to want abilities restricted to a specific race. Therein lies the problem of everyone wanting the limited abilities for their preferred race to be something different from what everyone else wants.

Link for reference:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/405774/racial-passives-a-poll/p1

Koronach

Marginis wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Marginis wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Marginis wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Marginis wrote: »

I may be in the minority but I think the stealth passive was just redundant. Perhaps Bosmer need something better than what ZOS gave them with the last racial passive changes, but I still like the idea that it's something unique to them.

Then take all magicka bonus from Altmer and Dunmer, it's redundant with Bretons. Take all weapon bonuses from every race but Orcs, it's redundant. Take all stamina bonuses from every race but Redguards, it's redundant.

Having one, and only one, race with bonuses to magic is obviously silly; having one, and only one, race with bonuses to combat is equally silly. How is it not just as silly to have one, and only one, race with any bonus to thieving?

You're way oversimplifying. Altmer have higher magicka power than any other race, where bretons have historically focused on recovery or resistance to magicka, and Dunmer in ESO have a niche of getting bonuses to both magicka and stamina where the other races focus more on one or the other. Saying they're all the same because they all give magicka bonuses is like saying Redguards and Orcs are the same because they both give stamina bonuses. Give Bosmer something unique having to do with stealth, instead of just giving them the exact same stealth bonus as Khajiit because you personally want that bonus back.

What I was saying is not that their detection is the best way to accomplish this, but the theory is in my opinion solid. Give them a unique crit or flanking bonus, and make the Khajiit stealth passive more unique to thieving or something, as an example. It doesn't mean we need to scrap everything and just go back to the way things were just because the current Bosmer passive isn't the most applicable to your playstyle or the current meta. Who knows, maybe some players really like having another tool to stop those nightblade gankers in PVP.

@Marginis I don't think that's an oversimplification at all. This is exactly what was done. We had two stealth races before, now we only have one and one that's accidentally a bit better at sneaking (Imperial).
If ZOS gave us anything actively stealth related, say reduced sneak cost, we'd already be happy, because they acknowledge the series' lore.
Or at least we'd be happier than now. In ESO, stealth radius is the single most important stat for being a sneaky character. Sneak speed comes second and sneak cost comes in third. Give us any of those and we won't have to make an extra gear or vampirism investment. They can easily change it like that without hurting dps charts while adding flavor and keeping the "uniqueness" that ZOS praises so much.

ZOS had the option to give any of those passives to Bosmer instead of detection. That is the main problem. Bosmer are supposedly one of the most naturally gifted sneaks in Tamriel and racial passives should reflect that if stealth is a thing that exists in ESO. If the racial passives don't reflect the lore, then they are arbitrary and have no reason for being in the first place. They replaced being better at hiding with nothing. And yes, detection is nothing, even in PvP. I can explain that to you in detail if you want. But it should also not be glossed over the fact that one of the goals ZOS stated was that the passives should become more universally applicable and a passive that is only good in PvP and serves ABSOLUTELY NO PURPOSE in PvE is not what I would call "universally applicable".
We are not mad because the meta shifted away from out builds, we are mad because ZOS kicked 25 years of lore in the dirt and balanced against player expectations. That is why this is comparable. If you choose an Altmer to be good at magic because the lore says so, and then ZOS takes magic away from them completely, then you have every right to be upset and demand it back.

I'm not sure I'd agree that the lore is as trampled as you say, and I personally think that while lore is important (I lead a lore-friendly roleplay guild, afterall) I do think it takes a backseat to balance and gameplay. However, I absolutely agree that a different type of stealth bonus would be great. Sneak speed, sneak cost, maybe even something unique like brief invisibility upon activating sneak. I just think it's a boring and uninventive solution to just give the same boring bonus there was and take away the uniqueness from both Khajiit and Bosmer. Khajiit have always had their thing, but Bosmer deserve better than to just be a slightly more stamina focused Khajiit.

Yes, I agree it takes a backseat to balance and gameplay. But I'd say it only goes that far. I wouldn't be demanding stealth for Bosmer if stealth wasn't a thing in ESO. I am not demanding chameleon like skin and invisibility near plants, even if that would be in line with the lore. Stealth is gameplay in ESO after all and ZOS limited choice - the very thing they wanted to increase.
But if we have racial passives in this game, then they better reflect the races as they are represented in the game's lore as closely as possible within the boundaries set by gameplay and balance. That's the point of having racial passives in the first place. You are meant to not only read about the physiology of the races but experience it in action as you play. If the racial passives don't reflect the lore, then the race choice might as well be purely cosmetic, because the boni don't actually mean anything. And if the game requires a system to grant you buffs for balance, you can turn that into a "choose your destiny" at the start of the game where you can pick if you want to be stealthy, magical or tough. That would do players a greater favor than adding racials that are completely disconnected from the source material.

Your suggestion of a "choose your destiny" mechanic is actually something I suggested some time ago, and I think would go a long way to alleviating some of these racial passive issues the community has. As far as the discussion there and in other posts went, however, most people seem to want abilities restricted to a specific race. Therein lies the problem of everyone wanting the limited abilities for their preferred race to be something different from what everyone else wants.

Link for reference:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/405774/racial-passives-a-poll/p1

It also looks like the majority wanted them left alone looking at the poll. Well leave them alone got the most votes out of the others. Instead ZoS felt the need to change them and break some of the races lore within the game.

Cundu_Ertur

ZOS finally answered!

They locked the other thread.

Sooooooooooo… that's your outcome.