Wood Elf/ Bosmer losing stealth passive, An open letter.

Celas_Dranacea

Hi all,

I am a diehard Bosmer and this change dissapointed me. I hope they continue to think about how they can improve on the Bosmer identity as sneaky / agile race in future iterations.

However, I am Bosmer in my SOUL. No amount of passive changes will impact how I am a sneaky ass ***.

But can the devs please not touch, or even buff, our fall damage mitigation? We are quite light and good for tumbling. 15% sounds better. Thanks

Alaya

Celas_Dranacea wrote: »

Hi all,

I am a diehard Bosmer and this change dissapointed me. I hope they continue to think about how they can improve on the Bosmer identity as sneaky / agile race in future iterations.

However, I am Bosmer in my SOUL. No amount of passive changes will impact how I am a sneaky ass ***.

But can the devs please not touch, or even buff, our fall damage mitigation? We are quite light and good for tumbling. 15% sounds better. Thanks

All of this applies to me. I haven't given up on my Bosmer characters or crew. I still hold hope that they'll fix it and give us a better passive that isn't completely useless. And I've even had someone who MAINS A BOSMER tell me that the passives are AWESOME. That they don't need fixing. They primarily play PvP anyhow.

Give us back our stealth and add an ability that makes us just as competitive as the other races for different roles, because as it stands, Bosmer is hardly picked for anything.

anadandy

Jaraal wrote: »

anadandy wrote: »

We also wanted to have more of a distinct play pattern on how Wood Elves and Khajiit both engaged with Stealth, so we’ve repurposed Wood Elves’ passive into one that deals with turning their proficiency of Stealth into a proficiency of hunting Stealthed targets. a bunch of crap.

- that's the closest they ever got to admitting detection was useless in PvE.

Actually, it's not. A Community Manager actually posted that "NPCs can't be bothered to hide," in response to criticism of the new passive. I tried to find that quote, but but apparently that's been redacted, too.

Right, that original quote was from the Devs initial post about the racial passive changes. And when Bosmer players pointed out how ridiculous stealth detection was in light of that remark- that's when they doubled down. The lame "stealth is not always engaged equally" bit came out in response tonthe months of feedback. Because heaven forbid they admit being wrong.

Ratzkifal

Alaya wrote: »

Celas_Dranacea wrote: »

Hi all,

I am a diehard Bosmer and this change dissapointed me. I hope they continue to think about how they can improve on the Bosmer identity as sneaky / agile race in future iterations.

However, I am Bosmer in my SOUL. No amount of passive changes will impact how I am a sneaky ass ***.

But can the devs please not touch, or even buff, our fall damage mitigation? We are quite light and good for tumbling. 15% sounds better. Thanks

All of this applies to me. I haven't given up on my Bosmer characters or crew. I still hold hope that they'll fix it and give us a better passive that isn't completely useless. And I've even had someone who MAINS A BOSMER tell me that the passives are AWESOME. That they don't need fixing. They primarily play PvP anyhow.

Give us back our stealth and add an ability that makes us just as competitive as the other races for different roles, because as it stands, Bosmer is hardly picked for anything.

That person was surely not talking about the detection when they said "awesome". And if they did, then they didn't do any testing on it. The more you are looking into that passive, the worse it sounds.

Jaraal

Alaya wrote: »

All of this applies to me. I haven't given up on my Bosmer characters or crew. I still hold hope that they'll fix it and give us a better passive that isn't completely useless. And I've even had someone who MAINS A BOSMER tell me that the passives are AWESOME. That they don't need fixing. They primarily play PvP anyhow.

The other two Bosmer passives are useful and well designed. And almost all of us would be fine with Hunter's Eye, if they just replaced the niche and questionably effective ability to detect stealth in PvP with the ability to be as stealthy as we once were (and as the whole world knows us) in PvE. Or give us both, if the issue is taking something away from the PvP folks. I still use the Evil Hunter skill on my bar in Cyrodill to find hidden enemies, because the Stealth Detection passive does nothing for me there.

Cundu_Ertur

Alaya wrote: »

Celas_Dranacea wrote: »

Hi all,

I am a diehard Bosmer and this change dissapointed me. I hope they continue to think about how they can improve on the Bosmer identity as sneaky / agile race in future iterations.

However, I am Bosmer in my SOUL. No amount of passive changes will impact how I am a sneaky ass ***.

But can the devs please not touch, or even buff, our fall damage mitigation? We are quite light and good for tumbling. 15% sounds better. Thanks

All of this applies to me. I haven't given up on my Bosmer characters or crew. I still hold hope that they'll fix it and give us a better passive that isn't completely useless. And I've even had someone who MAINS A BOSMER tell me that the passives are AWESOME. That they don't need fixing. They primarily play PvP anyhow.

Give us back our stealth and add an ability that makes us just as competitive as the other races for different roles, because as it stands, Bosmer is hardly picked for anything.

I go through several Kübler-Ross stages, sometime simultaneously. Denial: I refuse to accept that my gameplay has changed. I wear enough gear to get 2m of stealth (either Night Terror or Night Mother's embrace), and just play like I did before. I get caught more often. This means I am frequently angry. I come to the forums to bargain. Sometimes I get a bit down, but it cycles right back to anger.

The stage that will NEVER be reached is acceptance. Because this change is fundamentally stupid. It is a stupid change done in stupid ways for stupid reasons, and I will never accept it. Bosmer have ALWAYS been Thieves. They have never not been Thieves. Until now. For no good reason, they are now guards. And that is stupid.

Kalle_Demos

Jaraal wrote: »

Incidentally, for the new folks, or those who don't know what the fuss is all about, here's the developer's quote about why 20 years of Bosmer lore was unceremoniously dumped for a minor PvP tweak:

Previously if you weren’t able to utilize Stealth, you lost a large portion of effectiveness that Wood Elves provided, so we’ve put the bulk of their power into their flat bonuses to Stamina and recovery. We also wanted to have more of a distinct play pattern on how Wood Elves and Khajiit both engaged with Stealth, so we’ve repurposed Wood Elves’ passive into one that deals with turning their proficiency of Stealth into a proficiency of hunting Stealthed targets. Additionally, since Stealth is not always engaged with at the same rate across the game, we added a small boon to when you activate Roll Dodge to help enhance mobility and offensive turning power in order to slip to safety or reposition for an unexpected attack.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/5851010/#Comment_5851010


Of course, there are no "Stealthed targets" to hunt anywhere outside of PvP. But they gave us PvEers a "small boon" where, as now worthless thieves, we can burn our sprint stamina by roll dodging instead of actually sprinting, so in actuality we are even more likely to be caught by guards than before.


Disgusting.

To add on to this: The goals layed out in regards to racial balance included Lore Accuracy, universal applicability, diversity and retaining the races unique feeling. On every one of these points the EXACT OPPOSITE was accomplished with Bosmer and I would argue a few others.

MacCait

I had just come back to the game, and was not happy that my Wood Elf nightblade lost this passive, a defining point to the Wood Elf. While I think other races were pretty well balanced, this felt like an unnecessary nerf

Starlight_Knight

i'm also annoyed at this change, for those of us who don't like playing beast races the wood elf was an attractive option, now it makes no difference if i'm a 9ft tall Nord or a 4ft tall Wood elf.

One has to hope that this change was just to encourage players to make Khajiit for the update.

Jaraal

Starlight_Knight wrote: »

One has to hope that this change was just to encourage players to make Khajiit for the update.

Agreed. I'm afraid we've been sold out for coin.

Left4Daud

Sober nords
Tuskless orcs
Weak to magic Bretons
Short altmer etc

Make just as much sense as our

Stealth free Bosmer.

Too bad everyone BUT the people balancing the racials can see that.

Tigerseye

Starlight_Knight wrote: »

i'm also annoyed at this change, for those of us who don't like playing beast races the wood elf was an attractive option, now it makes no difference if i'm a 9ft tall Nord or a 4ft tall Wood elf.

One has to hope that this change was just to encourage players to make Khajiit for the update.

I don't like being forced to do things.

I tend to just wander off, eventually, if people try.

Ectheliontnacil

Wow this thread is huge! At this point ZOS is almost forced to do something with Bosmer racials.

BlueRaven

Ectheliontnacil wrote: »

Wow this thread is huge! At this point ZOS is almost forced to do something with Bosmer racials.

You would think so...

MartiniDaniels

Ectheliontnacil wrote: »

Wow this thread is huge! At this point ZOS is almost forced to do something with Bosmer racials.

I guess it may work another way because:

Tigerseye wrote: »

Starlight_Knight wrote: »

i'm also annoyed at this change, for those of us who don't like playing beast races the wood elf was an attractive option, now it makes no difference if i'm a 9ft tall Nord or a 4ft tall Wood elf.

One has to hope that this change was just to encourage players to make Khajiit for the update.

I don't like being forced to do things.

I tend to just wander off, eventually, if people try.

At this point after all the "re-balances" of last year I don't believe or expect anything good from ZOS. ESO for me is like a country where my toons live and "combat team" is like corrupted government who cares about only their own business (PVP balance).

Jaraal

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

ESO for me is like a country where my toons live and "combat team" is like corrupted government who cares about only their own business (PVP balance).

Well stated. They clearly aren't invested in the player experience.... only how they can balance deathmatch numbers on a spreadsheet. Most players don't PvP, so they are only trying to appease a small segment of the population, at the expense of the majority.

I kind of get how the loremaster doesn't want to make waves with his friends on the combat team, but I'm really curious how this made it past the marketing team. One would think they would want the maximum number of happy players. But I guess they get paid to sign off on whatever crosses their desk. We just happen to be the ones that have to think about it every time we see our once great Bosmer characters (or plastic surgery enhanced Bosmer that now looks like a Khajiit) at the log in screen.

MartiniDaniels

Jaraal wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

ESO for me is like a country where my toons live and "combat team" is like corrupted government who cares about only their own business (PVP balance).

Well stated. They clearly aren't invested in the player experience.... only how they can balance deathmatch numbers on a spreadsheet. Most players don't PvP, so they are only trying to appease a small segment of the population, at the expense of the majority.

I kind of get how the loremaster doesn't want to make waves with his friends on the combat team, but I'm really curious how this made it past the marketing team. One would think they would want the maximum number of happy players. But I guess they get paid to sign off on whatever crosses their desk. We just happen to be the ones that have to think about it every time we see our once great Bosmer characters (or plastic surgery enhanced Bosmer that now looks like a Khajiit) at the log in screen.

I think they look at other games, which make most money, like Fortnite etc and think that they need evolve ESO to something similar... which is completely wrong in my opinion, since ESO population came mostly from previous single-player games and so trying to turn them (us) in some PVP-oriented brawlers won't work.
There is brightest example such as Bioware. They were making best RPGs with Dragon Age:Origins and Mass Effect 2 as some pinnacle of art and success and then some smart-backside from EA decided to enforce coop in Mass Effect 3 and remade all game to be like Call of Duty.. results well-known -> Bioware is dead.

Cundu_Ertur

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

There is brightest example such as Bioware. They were making best RPGs with Dragon Age:Origins and Mass Effect 2 as some pinnacle of art and success and then some smart-backside from EA decided to enforce coop in Mass Effect 3 and remade all game to be like Call of Duty.. results well-known -> Bioware is dead.

I think what hurt ME3 the most was the dumbed down ending that didn't fit the rest of the story. Up until "Mr. Marauder Shields" it wasn't bad and seemed to be going to a satisfying conclusion. I think some exec somewhere was like, "derrrrrr, whutwhuzzat," so they dumbed it down way too much. I actually liked the co-op mode at times, but there were times where it did feel cash grabby. So long as you kept your wallet away most of the time it wasn't too bad. Even then they could have survived, until they handed off the IP to another bunch who had no clue what they were doing. Andromeda did more damage to Bioware than any other thing.

MartiniDaniels

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

There is brightest example such as Bioware. They were making best RPGs with Dragon Age:Origins and Mass Effect 2 as some pinnacle of art and success and then some smart-backside from EA decided to enforce coop in Mass Effect 3 and remade all game to be like Call of Duty.. results well-known -> Bioware is dead.

I think what hurt ME3 the most was the dumbed down ending that didn't fit the rest of the story. Up until "Mr. Marauder Shields" it wasn't bad and seemed to be going to a satisfying conclusion. I think some exec somewhere was like, "derrrrrr, whutwhuzzat," so they dumbed it down way too much. I actually liked the co-op mode at times, but there were times where it did feel cash grabby. So long as you kept your wallet away most of the time it wasn't too bad. Even then they could have survived, until they handed off the IP to another bunch who had no clue what they were doing. Andromeda did more damage to Bioware than any other thing.

Well, I agree that coop option was not bad, what is bad that overall game style was changed to "Space Marines". Of course we still have awesome characters in ME3 and I like majority of missions but after flawless ME1 and ME2 where all missions were in harmony and made sense, there were too much nonsense in ME3 story. Same nonsense as bosmer without stealth. Harmony and immersion are very fragile things. Several cracks in it and all the picture becomes murky.

Andromeda actually not that bad game in last version of patch, especially comparing to what we have on the market now. It's huge and beautiful and there are a lot of great quests, though a lot of dumb quests too. But same can be said about ESO?

Elusiin

I agree with this! Please reverse this passive!

Cundu_Ertur

Any relevant news from E3?

MartiniDaniels

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Any relevant news from E3?

Nope. Cats and dragons. And more dragons! And even more dragons!

BlueRaven

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Any relevant news from E3?

Not really. The next dlc is a dungeon dlc so I am not expecting race passive changes or a new stealth tree to be introduced.

After that is a story dlc that was light on information about introducing any new gameplay elements. Although a dragon hunting group is being introduced (Origin of the emperor’s blades perhaps? I am not clear on their history.). The group would seem an unlikely candidate for a stealth tree introduction, but who knows.

thegreatme

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Any relevant news from E3?

Nope.

So far no announcements of anything that seems related to any stealth trees or stealth-related DLC, or any acknowledgement about racial passives (not that I expected any). Just shiny cinematics and hype and "we increased server capacity for all the new players coming to ESO!" (meanwhile I'm lagging out the butt everywhere in Elswyer on my high end gaming pc )


Elswyer honestly seems like a weird place for them to introduce some kind of stealth system all of a sudden when the Year of the Dragon is all about khajiit and dragons and charging headlong into a literal firefight. Not much point of stealth in that scenario, unless you just want to run away from all of that.


Personally I wouldn't mind some future stealth DLC where you're helping Nocturnal or something, instead of trying to stop her from destroying the world or whatever other nonsense. It would make sense to introduce stealth along with Nocturnal content, maybe some start to the Nightingales or something since I don't believe they were part of the Thieves DLC? (didn't finish it yet but someone said there was nothing about Nightingales, probably because there's only a few at any given time).

But I doubt that's going to happen any more than my much-desired Reachman-sided content some niche people have been asking for since before launch and told wasn't probably ever going to happen.

BlueRaven

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Any relevant news from E3?

Follow up, they have an article.

https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/56433

Cundu_Ertur

BlueRaven wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Any relevant news from E3?

Follow up, they have an article.

https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/56433

I had watched the stream; my meaning was more if anyone had actually gone there and talked to someone like you had a few months back in Boston.

Who else cringed every time the stream broke into the "Hey, we're gamers too and we appreciate your feedback" agitprop? LOL yeah, right. 76 pages and all we got is a box full of nothin'.

edit to add: not to mention the several threads in PTS when the changes first showed up in PTS-land, and Character Mechanics before that when they were first previewed.

BlueRaven

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Any relevant news from E3?

Follow up, they have an article.

https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/56433

I had watched the stream; my meaning was more if anyone had actually gone there and talked to someone like you had a few months back in Boston.

Who else cringed every time the stream broke into the "Hey, we're gamers too and we appreciate your feedback" agitprop? LOL yeah, right. 76 pages and all we got is a box full of nothin'.

edit to add: not to mention the several threads in PTS when the changes first showed up in PTS-land, and Character Mechanics before that when they were first previewed.

I did not cringe as much as I did an eye roll.

(I do not want to stray too much into other topics here but when they said how nice the fallout 76 community was and that they listened to the feedback, all I could think about were the wide reports of greifing and community cries for a pure PvE experience. Instead they keep making new PvP experiences and catering to that crowd. Is that a trend?)

I was hoping to see an interview somewhere after the show about eso. I would love to see what they have planned for that dlc in the fall. (The news of a dungeon dlc this August was a bit of a disappointment to me really.) I keep having hope for some good news.

anadandy

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Any relevant news from E3?

Nope. Cats and dragons. And more dragons! And even more dragons!

And scales! Don't forget the scales!

I found the whole presentation rather meh - drop a couple DLC names, crow about how many new players you have but no real substance.

Where's my Bosmer stealth, Matt?

Tigerseye

I'm tired of killing dragons...

I'm just tired, period, at this point.

The Elsweyr boss dailies are bugged, so I can't do many of them, without losing the plot entirely.

You try to explain to people, over and over, to please wait for everyone to get the q items first, but they never do.

They just don't seem to understand...

So, you, or someone else, gets the quest bug (i.e. one of the q items disappear) and then you (or they) have to drop the quest, go and pick it up again and hope the same thing doesn't happen again.

Then you have to expain, for 999th time, what happened and why.

Knowing, all too well, that they will have forgotten again, by the next time.

Maybe I'll go back to stealing?

Oh no, I can't - it's not like it used to be.

Did I mention I'm tired of killing dragons...?

OsManiaC

maybe they make special bosmer DLC, where we can hunt and eat well --- you know - #justbosmerthings.