Ratzkifal wrote: »

Just wanted to let you know that I have committed a sin and skilled into that passive for some testing. It does reveal invisibility. It grants truesight in a 3m radius. HOWEVER, your attacks still miss when you declare them despite being able to see them and 3m in ESO is so close that it is literally standing right next to each other. Think of how when your character is holding a bow, there is an arrow in there. The enemy can't be a lot farther away from you than that arrow head is if you want to see through his invisibility.
After the testing I took points out of the passive again, so don't worry.

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Even the Elder Scrolls I: Arena describes Bosmer as thieves.

Bosmer hail from the province of Valenwood. They are a people of the forests, matching their features to all that is found growing in the green woods of their homeland. They are known to be extremely agile and quick. Bosmer receive their (level / 3) as a bonus to hit and damage with any bow weapon. They are well suited towards any class, although their nimbleness serves them best in any art involving thievery.

Arato wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

A_Silverius wrote: »

Eiron77 wrote: »

"Stealth is not a universal mechanic" = Replace it with something even less universal

ZOS: "many enemies in Tamriel can’t be bothered sneaking about" Gives stealth detection.

Arato wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Hand_Bacon wrote: »

KMarble wrote: »

I think the problem is that you're looking at it as if the passive is one thing, and that to change one aspect of it would be to change the whole. I see it as 3 different traits that could be modified separately.

Can we just ask them to take our 10% reduced fall damage in exchange for giving back the 3m reduction? Seems more fit for Khajiits always landing on their feet anyways.

I don't know if I really want to give up that increased ability to find other non bosmer/khajiit stealthers first.

My suggestion, IF we need to be different from the Khajiit was:
1) Put 2m hiding bonus in legerdemain in .5 increments in the Improved Hiding skill. Everyone would be able to get 2m hiding bonus that way. Also, provide some way to level legerdemain that didn't involve picking locks or pockets -- maybe tied to doing damage out of stealth or something.
2) Reduce the Khajiit bonus to a max of 2m, but they'd otherwise remain the same. Scale would be .5/1/2 or something like that.
3) Leave Hunter's Eye alone (even keeping the detested detection bonus), but give Bosmer a 1m hiding bonus in their 'free' passive.

Bosmer would start the game being able to hide a bit better than anyone else, but if they don't level their skill in legerdemain they get left behind by everyone else. Khajiit would eventually be the best, but they'd have to work at it. In the end, all races would be able to get a 2m bonus, those Bosmer who work at it would have a 3m bonus, Those Khajiit who work at it would have a 4m bonus. Everyone wins, no-one loses.

No, in the Lore, Bosmer always got a stronger stealth bonus than Khajiit. Khajiit had a stronger acrobatics bonus.... ESO gets them backwards.

The skills most associated with Bosmer are marksmanship, sneak, alchemy, and light armor (remember in single player TES games clothing like robes isn't counted as armor at all, light armor is leather, medium (if it's in the game) is mail, and heavy is plate). They always get bonuses to those skills, with marksman/archery being the highest. They have also here and there gotten bonuses to acrobatics, pickpocket, lockpicking, and in Oblivion, alteration.

the skills most associated with Khajiit are acrobatics, athletics, hand to hand, and sneak (but generally a smaller bonus than what Bosmer get except Skyrim where it becomes their main skill (as acrobatics and athletics and hand to hand were removed from Skyrim)

Khanjiit having equal stealth bonus with Bosmer? Sure. Better? No. Bosmer should be the scouts and thieves where Khajiit are more associated with martial artists, and it'd be really nice if one day we had a martial arts/hand to hand tree (though you'd have to have some sort of fist weapon or claw weapon for things like enchants and stats). IMO Elsweyr should have introduced monks rather than necromancers.

TBH in Skyrim Khajiit had the bigger hiding bonus, but that was more to do with how the racials were redesigned than anything: every race had one big and several small bonuses instead of a couple big and small ones. Also most of the Khajiit major skills were nuked for Skyrim, so their small hiding boost got promoted mostly because it simply hadn't disappeared. The Bosmer main skill was the obvious boost to archery, so stealth got demoted.

I'm aware of all of this, and aside from the note about Skyrim I don't really disagree with what you say, but it seems obvious to me that someone on the current dev team loves them some cats and loathes Bosmer with all their heart.

... did you actually read my post, I did cover all of that. The trimming of Khajiit's traditional racial skills meant sneak became their major skill.

Ratzkifal wrote: »

IwakuraLain42 wrote: »

If you look hard at what ZOS did over the last few years with the game then it should be very clear which groups are their focus: PvP players and PvE endgame players (primary DPS) playing the game on a PC. Everything else simply doesn't matter and they don't care about us. It's only important that they get enough new players for each Chapter (that's the main why they are structured that you can easily play as a new player).

They will not undo this ...

@IwakuraLain42 Have faith! They will listen to us eventually. ZOS does not care about PvP or PvE or even streamers. What they care about is their perception and publicity and endgame and streamers play a big role in that. All we need is attention and momentum on this subject and ZOS will take it seriously.

• We want more diverse race choices for characters that are focused on justice interactions. Having Khajiit be the only one with a sneaking advantage is very limiting.
• Stealth detect is useless in PvE, many people don't play PvP at all so get no use from this trait, so that is what we would give up for a bonus to sneaking for Bosmer.
  Further more the additional stealth detect in PvP is not in line with existing forms of detection as it reveals cloaked enemies without an indicator. It also gives away the existence of a hidden Bosmer to other sneaking enemies as it also increase the "danger" radius with the half opened eye indicator in which enemies can tell they are about to be revealed before the sneaking Bosmer is even made aware of the existance of their sneaking enemy.
• Doesn't fit lore

KMarble wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Update on the comprehensive list of arguments (WIP)

• We want more diverse race choices for characters that are focused on justice interactions. Having Khajiit be the only one with a sneaking advantage is very limiting.
• Stealth detect is useless in PvE, many people don't play PvP at all so get no use from this trait, so that is what we would give up for a bonus to sneaking for Bosmer.
  Further more the additional stealth detect in PvP is not in line with existing forms of detection as it reveals cloaked enemies without an indicator. It also gives away the existence of a hidden Bosmer to other sneaking enemies as it also increase the "danger" radius with the half opened eye indicator in which enemies can tell they are about to be revealed before the sneaking Bosmer is even made aware of the existance of their sneaking enemy.
• Doesn't fit lore

May I give a suggestion?

I'd take out the "many people don't play PVP" part for two reasons:
1. it's speculation (unless there are numbers given by the only entity that can verify that - ZOS , which I doubt will happen)
2. it gives a "us versus them" vibe, which I think is counter-productive and dismissive*.

* One of the arguments used against my plea on the thread I started was that playing a Bosmer thief is a thing I chose to do, but they don't play it that way, so though luck.
I prefer not to have PVers thinking that the folks who play stealthy Bosmers don't care about what they like. I think it would be better to have some people who do play PVP stating how stealth actually helped them in how they played.

anadandy wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

IwakuraLain42 wrote: »

If you look hard at what ZOS did over the last few years with the game then it should be very clear which groups are their focus: PvP players and PvE endgame players (primary DPS) playing the game on a PC. Everything else simply doesn't matter and they don't care about us. It's only important that they get enough new players for each Chapter (that's the main why they are structured that you can easily play as a new player).

They will not undo this ...

@IwakuraLain42 Have faith! They will listen to us eventually. ZOS does not care about PvP or PvE or even streamers. What they care about is their perception and publicity and endgame and streamers play a big role in that. All we need is attention and momentum on this subject and ZOS will take it seriously.

I'm curious if there will be any attention paid to the weirdness with stealth detection you discovered. Because it really sounds like a bug - and if its not a bug then it is an even bigger problem with the passive. I'd really like to hear a defense of that.

heaven13 wrote: »

Eiron77 wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

I just went ahead and took some screen shots of what the various manuals say about Wood Elves.

(Hopefully got the order correct.)

Elder Scrolls 1 Arena



Elder Scrolls 2 Daggerfall



Elder Scrolls 3 Morrowind



Elder scrolls 4 Oblivion



(There appears to be no race descriptions in the Elder Scrolls 5 Skyrim manual.)

Full manuals can be found here;

https://manuals.bethsoft.com

Any chance you can add a screen shot of ESO's original description for Bosmers? (I forgot to get one before the patch went live).

You know, to drive the point home even further.

Here is the full sized screenshot of the image above taken from this video that dates back to 2014.

• We want more diverse race choices for characters that are focused on justice interactions. Having Khajiit be the only one with a sneaking advantage is very limiting.
• Stealth detect has no benefits in PvE, making this an exclusively PvP oriented passive component, which is counter to the original goals (goal number 2 - universal applicability) of the racial balance change. Since stealth detection is only beneficial in PvP environments it also does not line up with the original reasoning given behind the removal of stealth - that only a player that stealths (in this case, detects other players) can benefit from this (part of the) passive. As of now, PvE players only benefit from 10% speed after dodging at the cost of three skill points and ~3.6k stamina cost, as the penetration will either be wasted due to the cap or result in a DPS loss from the lack of uptime. Returning the reduced sneak radius or a similar passive component that improves sneaking helps players across the board as everyone can choose to take advantage of that in the Overworld as well as Dungeons and PvP by sneaking past enemies or sneaking into an advantageous position to strike.
  Furthermore the additional stealth detect in PvP is not in line with existing forms of detection as it reveals cloaked enemies without an indicator. It also gives away the existence of a hidden Bosmer to other sneaking enemies as it also increases the "danger" radius with the half opened eye indicator in which enemies can tell they are about to be revealed before the sneaking Bosmer is even made aware of the existence of their sneaking enemy. These intransparent and counterintuitive issues would need to be addressed and resolved if the passive was kept in its current form, which is why we would be willing to give up this component of the passive to regain improved sneaking.
• Doesn't fit lore
  Bosmer have been described as great sneak thieves in every Elder Scrolls game starting with Arena.
  
  

Ratzkifal wrote: »

@KMarble @Eiron77 Changed it. Tell me what you think.

• We want more diverse race choices for characters that are focused on justice interactions. Having Khajiit be the only one with a sneaking advantage is very limiting.
• Stealth detect has no benefits in PvE, making this an exclusively PvP oriented passive component, which is counter to the original goals (goal number 2 - universal applicability) of the racial balance change. Since stealth detection is only beneficial in PvP environments it also does not line up with the original reasoning given behind the removal of stealth - that only a player that stealths (in this case, detects other players) can benefit from this (part of the) passive. As of now, PvE players only benefit from 10% speed after dodging at the cost of three skill points and ~3.6k stamina cost, as the penetration will either be wasted due to the cap or result in a DPS loss from the lack of uptime. Returning the reduced sneak radius or a similar passive component that improves sneaking helps players across the board as everyone can choose to take advantage of that in the Overworld as well as Dungeons and PvP by sneaking past enemies or sneaking into an advantageous position to strike.
  Furthermore the additional stealth detect in PvP is not in line with existing forms of detection as it reveals cloaked enemies without an indicator. It also gives away the existence of a hidden Bosmer to other sneaking enemies as it also increases the "danger" radius with the half opened eye indicator in which enemies can tell they are about to be revealed before the sneaking Bosmer is even made aware of the existence of their sneaking enemy. These intransparent and counterintuitive issues would need to be addressed and resolved if the passive was kept in its current form, which is why we would be willing to give up this component of the passive to regain improved sneaking.
• Doesn't fit lore
  Bosmer have been described as great sneak thieves in every Elder Scrolls game starting with Arena.
  
  

Ratzkifal wrote: »

I vaguely remember one source where it says that Bosmer are the best archers on tamriel but aren't as easily drilled and disciplined than others or something, which is why Bosmer aren't common among the archers of the legion.

Pocket Guide to the Empire, 1st Edition/Aldmeri Dominion wrote:

"For a brief time the Colovian armies used Wood Elf archers, as in the War of Rihad two years past. The Bosmer proved to be too undisciplined and prone to desertion for further use. They would sometimes walk into the shade of a single tree and vanish. Their forest-coupling skills are remarkable. The title of their most famous poem, the Meh Ayleidion, means "The One Thousand Benefits of Hiding."

wedgebert wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

I vaguely remember one source where it says that Bosmer are the best archers on tamriel but aren't as easily drilled and disciplined than others or something, which is why Bosmer aren't common among the archers of the legion.

I actually found that exact quote earlier today and posted it in another thread about this.

Pocket Guide to the Empire, 1st Edition/Aldmeri Dominion wrote:

"For a brief time the Colovian armies used Wood Elf archers, as in the War of Rihad two years past. The Bosmer proved to be too undisciplined and prone to desertion for further use. They would sometimes walk into the shade of a single tree and vanish. Their forest-coupling skills are remarkable. The title of their most famous poem, the Meh Ayleidion, means "The One Thousand Benefits of Hiding."