Wood Elf/ Bosmer losing stealth passive, An open letter.

BlueRaven

Sylvermynx wrote: »

Eh, I don't play sneak thief on my Bosmer. It's not a playstyle I personally enjoy.

However - the basic trait of Bosmer IS stealth. And yet... ZOS chose to "special" pvp yet again. THAT is the problem. Everything ZOS does is to stroke pvp.

You know, I'm really enjoying this game. And I'm spending a lot of RLD on it. But.... if this trend doesn't go away.... I will be going away. Which is sad because there's nothing else out there to play - yeah, I know y'all will post suggestions for stupid phone games. I don't DO that crap. I do TES. Too bad I don't do WoW any more, or RIFT....

Guess I'll be going back to Skyrim. I'd almost rather go back to Oblivion at least to start.... but I can't deal with the potato faces.

I would love to play oblivion again, I am hoping for a remaster for the PS4. (I can't stand the faces either.)

Ratzkifal

@JayAstrophel Good start, but the "doesn't fit lore" needs to be explained thoroughly if we are going to hand it to someone. It also needs examples and evidence. The argument, that Imperials are better at thieving, which doesn't make sense, isn't strong enough, because ZOS found a great solution for the Red Diamond passive and suggesting that might sound like you are calling for nerfs. We are not calling for nerfs of others to have our fun! Similarly we won't get into Imperials having more health than Orcs when they shouldn't.

I would change it to this, but I'm leaving the lore part as is because it's late here and that one will probably the most difficult one.

- We want more diverse race choices for characters that are focused on justice interactions. Having Khajiit be the only one with a sneaking advantage is very limiting.
- stealth detect is useless in PvE, many people don't play PvP at all so get no use from this trait, so that is what we would give up for a bonus to sneaking for Bosmer
- Doesn't fit lore

zyk

I guess I'll be a broken record too!

It's not about which passive is better or worse. That's always going to be completely subjective.

It's just a very basic ethic in any kind of transaction that you don't change the product after it's been sold to the customer. In the case of a game, particularly an MMO, sometimes a change is necessary to correct a problem, but still care should always be taken to step on as few toes as possible.

Changing Bosmer's detection radius reduction to stealth detection did not solve any problems. But it created problems for likely thousands of players who thoughtfully chose Bosmer for their sneaky characters years ago.

Through the years, these players developed and grew attached to their characters as their stories unfolded.

Truly, what ZOS did to those players is wrong.

So whether you were negatively impacted by these changes, know that it's legitimately heartbreaking to others. And needlessly so. ZOS could have easily walked this one back. They have exposed themselves as stubborn and uncaring IMO.

Wildbloom

I've said it before, I'll say it again: I believe that this change impacts an area of gameplay far more than any other change they've made. Some races do more damage now, some have more health, some have less sustain, but some classes got genuinely good buffs (nords) while some were downgraded as far as, say, trail boss DPS, if only slightly.

The change to bosmer stealth effects the feel of a major aspect of the game. Us Bosmer are used to being stealthy. Myself, every time I try to do sneaky stuff on my bosmer main now, it feels alien and awful compared to last week thanks to this change. Stealth used to be fun, now it's frustrating. It's possible to do, yes, but so is magicka dps on a redguard. Possible, but gimped hard.

I badly want to stay bosmer, but the khajit stealth racial is almost enough to make me switch. I've grown attached to this elf since before Morrowind released, and seeing her grow fur and a tail just to get back something I had last week is almost insulting.

Sylvermynx

Gibgarde wrote: »

I've said it before, I'll say it again: I believe that this change impacts an area of gameplay far more than any other change they've made. Some races do more damage now, some have more health, some have less sustain, but some classes got genuinely good buffs (nords) while some were downgraded as far as, say, trail boss DPS, if only slightly.

The change to bosmer stealth effects the feel of a major aspect of the game. Us Bosmer are used to being stealthy. Myself, every time I try to do sneaky stuff on my bosmer main now, it feels alien and awful compared to last week thanks to this change. Stealth used to be fun, now it's frustrating. It's possible to do, yes, but so is magicka dps on a redguard. Possible, but gimped hard.

I badly want to stay bosmer, but the khajit stealth racial is almost enough to make me switch. I've grown attached to this elf since before Morrowind released, and seeing her grow fur and a tail just to get back something I had last week is almost insulting.

I don't chase meta, so my girls aren't race changing. I understand the issues for those of you who are feeling the pinch though.

The whole thing really sucks. I don't play Bosmer as sneak thieves, so it doesn't actually affect me. However, the whole "discard the lore for the the last 20 years" - yah, that bothers me.

Arato

Jaraal wrote: »

The reason they removed the Stealthy racial passive is because of the damage from stealth modifier scaling along with the shrinking of the detection radius. They didn't really care about Bosmer being stealthy, they just wanted to nerf the 10% damage bonus that came along with it. So, instead of taking the time to figure out how to separate the two elements of the passive, they just tossed the whole code out, and replaced it with a garbage passive that is worthless in PvE, and has been reported to be extremely underachieving in PvP.

Why else would they contradict their statement about wanting to spread diversity between the races, and then eliminate half of the stealthy races in the game? Are they REALLY trying to get more people to play Khajiits ahead of the upcoming Khajiit chapter? With all the people traditionally complaining in the PvP threads about the "Roly Poly proctards" wearing Eternal Hunt and Senche's Bite.... are they really encouraging another niche playstyle that is often described as "cancer?" Or are they throwing this weird six second 10% speed roll dodge buff as appeasement for killing Swift and Major Expedition sets?

All I know is, it stinks. Bosmer lore is being tossed out like yesterday's skooma pipe water, and for what? Some sketchy PvP "balancing" that might affect 20% (or less) of people who rolled a wood elf? All those weeks training Legerdemain, Thieves Guild, Dark Brotherhood, etc, just so you can scrap your Bosmer and make a Khajiit thief and do it all over again so you can earn some decent gold? Madness, I tell you! Next thing you know, they'll be tossing other lore out the window and bringing wyverns to the Age of Heroes 1,000 years ahead of schedule!

Oh, wait.......

Your train of thought doesn't make it to the station, as they kept the stealth radius on Khajiit. My theory is there's a dev at ZOS who's an unapologetic furry probably wears fur suits to the office and goes to conventions and he decided his chosen fursona should be the best.

Cundu_Ertur

Arato wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

The reason they removed the Stealthy racial passive is because of the damage from stealth modifier scaling along with the shrinking of the detection radius. They didn't really care about Bosmer being stealthy, they just wanted to nerf the 10% damage bonus that came along with it. So, instead of taking the time to figure out how to separate the two elements of the passive, they just tossed the whole code out, and replaced it with a garbage passive that is worthless in PvE, and has been reported to be extremely underachieving in PvP.

Why else would they contradict their statement about wanting to spread diversity between the races, and then eliminate half of the stealthy races in the game? Are they REALLY trying to get more people to play Khajiits ahead of the upcoming Khajiit chapter? With all the people traditionally complaining in the PvP threads about the "Roly Poly proctards" wearing Eternal Hunt and Senche's Bite.... are they really encouraging another niche playstyle that is often described as "cancer?" Or are they throwing this weird six second 10% speed roll dodge buff as appeasement for killing Swift and Major Expedition sets?

All I know is, it stinks. Bosmer lore is being tossed out like yesterday's skooma pipe water, and for what? Some sketchy PvP "balancing" that might affect 20% (or less) of people who rolled a wood elf? All those weeks training Legerdemain, Thieves Guild, Dark Brotherhood, etc, just so you can scrap your Bosmer and make a Khajiit thief and do it all over again so you can earn some decent gold? Madness, I tell you! Next thing you know, they'll be tossing other lore out the window and bringing wyverns to the Age of Heroes 1,000 years ahead of schedule!

Oh, wait.......

Your train of thought doesn't make it to the station, as they kept the stealth radius on Khajiit. My theory is there's a dev at ZOS who's an unapologetic furry probably wears fur suits to the office and goes to conventions and he decided his chosen fursona should be the best.

This is my crazy-hair aliens guy theory, too.
I'm not saying it was a furry...
but it was a furry.

anadandy

zyk wrote: »

Changing Bosmer's stealth reduction to stealth detection did not solve any problems. But it created problems for likely thousands of players who thoughtfully chose Bosmer for their sneaky characters years ago.
.

Well said. This is the root of it for me too. The change was unnecessary for balance and not a single reasoning for it made sense. I outlined them all in another post but for example.

"Stealth is not a universal mechanic" = Replace it with something even less universal

BlueRaven

anadandy wrote: »

"Stealth is not a universal mechanic" = Replace it with something even less universal

Ha! I love that line.

A_Silverius

Eiron77 wrote: »

"Stealth is not a universal mechanic" = Replace it with something even less universal

ZOS: "many enemies in Tamriel can’t be bothered sneaking about" Gives stealth detection.

Ratzkifal

Just wanted to let you know that I have committed a sin and skilled into that passive for some testing. It does reveal invisibility. It grants truesight in a 3m radius. HOWEVER, your attacks still miss when you declare them despite being able to see them and 3m in ESO is so close that it is literally standing right next to each other. Think of how when your character is holding a bow, there is an arrow in there. The enemy can't be a lot farther away from you than that arrow head is if you want to see through his invisibility.
After the testing I took points out of the passive again, so don't worry.

Cundu_Ertur

A_Silverius wrote: »

Eiron77 wrote: »

"Stealth is not a universal mechanic" = Replace it with something even less universal

ZOS: "many enemies in Tamriel can’t be bothered sneaking about" Gives stealth detection.

Arato wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Hand_Bacon wrote: »

KMarble wrote: »

I think the problem is that you're looking at it as if the passive is one thing, and that to change one aspect of it would be to change the whole. I see it as 3 different traits that could be modified separately.

Can we just ask them to take our 10% reduced fall damage in exchange for giving back the 3m reduction? Seems more fit for Khajiits always landing on their feet anyways.

I don't know if I really want to give up that increased ability to find other non bosmer/khajiit stealthers first.

My suggestion, IF we need to be different from the Khajiit was:
1) Put 2m hiding bonus in legerdemain in .5 increments in the Improved Hiding skill. Everyone would be able to get 2m hiding bonus that way. Also, provide some way to level legerdemain that didn't involve picking locks or pockets -- maybe tied to doing damage out of stealth or something.
2) Reduce the Khajiit bonus to a max of 2m, but they'd otherwise remain the same. Scale would be .5/1/2 or something like that.
3) Leave Hunter's Eye alone (even keeping the detested detection bonus), but give Bosmer a 1m hiding bonus in their 'free' passive.

Bosmer would start the game being able to hide a bit better than anyone else, but if they don't level their skill in legerdemain they get left behind by everyone else. Khajiit would eventually be the best, but they'd have to work at it. In the end, all races would be able to get a 2m bonus, those Bosmer who work at it would have a 3m bonus, Those Khajiit who work at it would have a 4m bonus. Everyone wins, no-one loses.

No, in the Lore, Bosmer always got a stronger stealth bonus than Khajiit. Khajiit had a stronger acrobatics bonus.... ESO gets them backwards.

The skills most associated with Bosmer are marksmanship, sneak, alchemy, and light armor (remember in single player TES games clothing like robes isn't counted as armor at all, light armor is leather, medium (if it's in the game) is mail, and heavy is plate). They always get bonuses to those skills, with marksman/archery being the highest. They have also here and there gotten bonuses to acrobatics, pickpocket, lockpicking, and in Oblivion, alteration.

the skills most associated with Khajiit are acrobatics, athletics, hand to hand, and sneak (but generally a smaller bonus than what Bosmer get except Skyrim where it becomes their main skill (as acrobatics and athletics and hand to hand were removed from Skyrim)

Khanjiit having equal stealth bonus with Bosmer? Sure. Better? No. Bosmer should be the scouts and thieves where Khajiit are more associated with martial artists, and it'd be really nice if one day we had a martial arts/hand to hand tree (though you'd have to have some sort of fist weapon or claw weapon for things like enchants and stats). IMO Elsweyr should have introduced monks rather than necromancers.

TBH in Skyrim Khajiit had the bigger hiding bonus, but that was more to do with how the racials were redesigned than anything: every race had one big and several small bonuses instead of a couple big and small ones. Also most of the Khajiit major skills were nuked for Skyrim, so their small hiding boost got promoted mostly because it simply hadn't disappeared. The Bosmer main skill was the obvious boost to archery, so stealth got demoted.

I'm aware of all of this, and aside from the note about Skyrim I don't really disagree with what you say, but it seems obvious to me that someone on the current dev team loves them some cats and loathes Bosmer with all their heart.

anadandy

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Just wanted to let you know that I have committed a sin and skilled into that passive for some testing. It does reveal invisibility. It grants truesight in a 3m radius. HOWEVER, your attacks still miss when you declare them despite being able to see them and 3m in ESO is so close that it is literally standing right next to each other. Think of how when your character is holding a bow, there is an arrow in there. The enemy can't be a lot farther away from you than that arrow head is if you want to see through his invisibility.
After the testing I took points out of the passive again, so don't worry.

Good to know - so marginally more useful in PVP than originally recorded.

Still useless in PVE - because as I noted before even those NB's that cloak have those radiating lines after the "disappear" and they are clearly visible before hand.

It's not like we're all Skyrim guards who see an enemy, they cloak and "It must have been the wind."

Ratzkifal

Even the Elder Scrolls I: Arena describes Bosmer as thieves.

Bosmer hail from the province of Valenwood. They are a people of the forests, matching their features to all that is found growing in the green woods of their homeland. They are known to be extremely agile and quick. Bosmer receive their (level / 3) as a bonus to hit and damage with any bow weapon. They are well suited towards any class, although their nimbleness serves them best in any art involving thievery.

Cundu_Ertur

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Even the Elder Scrolls I: Arena describes Bosmer as thieves.

Bosmer hail from the province of Valenwood. They are a people of the forests, matching their features to all that is found growing in the green woods of their homeland. They are known to be extremely agile and quick. Bosmer receive their (level / 3) as a bonus to hit and damage with any bow weapon. They are well suited towards any class, although their nimbleness serves them best in any art involving thievery.

And that's not a Wikipedia random contribution by some idiot wandering by, but a direct lift from the game manual. You can find a PDF of the original manual online, at any location where DOS game manuals are stored. Likewise for Daggerfall. 'Thief' has always been a recommended playstyle/class for Bosmer since TES 1. Until now.

Arato

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

A_Silverius wrote: »

Eiron77 wrote: »

"Stealth is not a universal mechanic" = Replace it with something even less universal

ZOS: "many enemies in Tamriel can’t be bothered sneaking about" Gives stealth detection.

Arato wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Hand_Bacon wrote: »

KMarble wrote: »

I think the problem is that you're looking at it as if the passive is one thing, and that to change one aspect of it would be to change the whole. I see it as 3 different traits that could be modified separately.

Can we just ask them to take our 10% reduced fall damage in exchange for giving back the 3m reduction? Seems more fit for Khajiits always landing on their feet anyways.

I don't know if I really want to give up that increased ability to find other non bosmer/khajiit stealthers first.

My suggestion, IF we need to be different from the Khajiit was:
1) Put 2m hiding bonus in legerdemain in .5 increments in the Improved Hiding skill. Everyone would be able to get 2m hiding bonus that way. Also, provide some way to level legerdemain that didn't involve picking locks or pockets -- maybe tied to doing damage out of stealth or something.
2) Reduce the Khajiit bonus to a max of 2m, but they'd otherwise remain the same. Scale would be .5/1/2 or something like that.
3) Leave Hunter's Eye alone (even keeping the detested detection bonus), but give Bosmer a 1m hiding bonus in their 'free' passive.

Bosmer would start the game being able to hide a bit better than anyone else, but if they don't level their skill in legerdemain they get left behind by everyone else. Khajiit would eventually be the best, but they'd have to work at it. In the end, all races would be able to get a 2m bonus, those Bosmer who work at it would have a 3m bonus, Those Khajiit who work at it would have a 4m bonus. Everyone wins, no-one loses.

No, in the Lore, Bosmer always got a stronger stealth bonus than Khajiit. Khajiit had a stronger acrobatics bonus.... ESO gets them backwards.

The skills most associated with Bosmer are marksmanship, sneak, alchemy, and light armor (remember in single player TES games clothing like robes isn't counted as armor at all, light armor is leather, medium (if it's in the game) is mail, and heavy is plate). They always get bonuses to those skills, with marksman/archery being the highest. They have also here and there gotten bonuses to acrobatics, pickpocket, lockpicking, and in Oblivion, alteration.

the skills most associated with Khajiit are acrobatics, athletics, hand to hand, and sneak (but generally a smaller bonus than what Bosmer get except Skyrim where it becomes their main skill (as acrobatics and athletics and hand to hand were removed from Skyrim)

Khanjiit having equal stealth bonus with Bosmer? Sure. Better? No. Bosmer should be the scouts and thieves where Khajiit are more associated with martial artists, and it'd be really nice if one day we had a martial arts/hand to hand tree (though you'd have to have some sort of fist weapon or claw weapon for things like enchants and stats). IMO Elsweyr should have introduced monks rather than necromancers.

TBH in Skyrim Khajiit had the bigger hiding bonus, but that was more to do with how the racials were redesigned than anything: every race had one big and several small bonuses instead of a couple big and small ones. Also most of the Khajiit major skills were nuked for Skyrim, so their small hiding boost got promoted mostly because it simply hadn't disappeared. The Bosmer main skill was the obvious boost to archery, so stealth got demoted.

I'm aware of all of this, and aside from the note about Skyrim I don't really disagree with what you say, but it seems obvious to me that someone on the current dev team loves them some cats and loathes Bosmer with all their heart.

... did you actually read my post, I did cover all of that. The trimming of Khajiit's traditional racial skills meant sneak became their major skill.

IwakuraLain42

If you look hard at what ZOS did over the last few years with the game then it should be very clear which groups are their focus: PvP players and PvE endgame players (primary DPS) playing the game on a PC. Everything else simply doesn't matter and they don't care about us. It's only important that they get enough new players for each Chapter (that's the main why they are structured that you can easily play as a new player).

They will not undo this ...

BlueRaven

I just went ahead and took some screen shots of what the various manuals say about Wood Elves.

(Hopefully got the order correct.)

Elder Scrolls 1 Arena



Elder Scrolls 2 Daggerfall



Elder Scrolls 3 Morrowind



Elder scrolls 4 Oblivion



(There appears to be no race descriptions in the Elder Scrolls 5 Skyrim manual.)

Full manuals can be found here;

https://manuals.bethsoft.com

Cundu_Ertur

Arato wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

A_Silverius wrote: »

Eiron77 wrote: »

"Stealth is not a universal mechanic" = Replace it with something even less universal

ZOS: "many enemies in Tamriel can’t be bothered sneaking about" Gives stealth detection.

Arato wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Hand_Bacon wrote: »

KMarble wrote: »

I think the problem is that you're looking at it as if the passive is one thing, and that to change one aspect of it would be to change the whole. I see it as 3 different traits that could be modified separately.

Can we just ask them to take our 10% reduced fall damage in exchange for giving back the 3m reduction? Seems more fit for Khajiits always landing on their feet anyways.

I don't know if I really want to give up that increased ability to find other non bosmer/khajiit stealthers first.

My suggestion, IF we need to be different from the Khajiit was:
1) Put 2m hiding bonus in legerdemain in .5 increments in the Improved Hiding skill. Everyone would be able to get 2m hiding bonus that way. Also, provide some way to level legerdemain that didn't involve picking locks or pockets -- maybe tied to doing damage out of stealth or something.
2) Reduce the Khajiit bonus to a max of 2m, but they'd otherwise remain the same. Scale would be .5/1/2 or something like that.
3) Leave Hunter's Eye alone (even keeping the detested detection bonus), but give Bosmer a 1m hiding bonus in their 'free' passive.

Bosmer would start the game being able to hide a bit better than anyone else, but if they don't level their skill in legerdemain they get left behind by everyone else. Khajiit would eventually be the best, but they'd have to work at it. In the end, all races would be able to get a 2m bonus, those Bosmer who work at it would have a 3m bonus, Those Khajiit who work at it would have a 4m bonus. Everyone wins, no-one loses.

No, in the Lore, Bosmer always got a stronger stealth bonus than Khajiit. Khajiit had a stronger acrobatics bonus.... ESO gets them backwards.

The skills most associated with Bosmer are marksmanship, sneak, alchemy, and light armor (remember in single player TES games clothing like robes isn't counted as armor at all, light armor is leather, medium (if it's in the game) is mail, and heavy is plate). They always get bonuses to those skills, with marksman/archery being the highest. They have also here and there gotten bonuses to acrobatics, pickpocket, lockpicking, and in Oblivion, alteration.

the skills most associated with Khajiit are acrobatics, athletics, hand to hand, and sneak (but generally a smaller bonus than what Bosmer get except Skyrim where it becomes their main skill (as acrobatics and athletics and hand to hand were removed from Skyrim)

Khanjiit having equal stealth bonus with Bosmer? Sure. Better? No. Bosmer should be the scouts and thieves where Khajiit are more associated with martial artists, and it'd be really nice if one day we had a martial arts/hand to hand tree (though you'd have to have some sort of fist weapon or claw weapon for things like enchants and stats). IMO Elsweyr should have introduced monks rather than necromancers.

TBH in Skyrim Khajiit had the bigger hiding bonus, but that was more to do with how the racials were redesigned than anything: every race had one big and several small bonuses instead of a couple big and small ones. Also most of the Khajiit major skills were nuked for Skyrim, so their small hiding boost got promoted mostly because it simply hadn't disappeared. The Bosmer main skill was the obvious boost to archery, so stealth got demoted.

I'm aware of all of this, and aside from the note about Skyrim I don't really disagree with what you say, but it seems obvious to me that someone on the current dev team loves them some cats and loathes Bosmer with all their heart.

... did you actually read my post, I did cover all of that. The trimming of Khajiit's traditional racial skills meant sneak became their major skill.

Missed it until you pointed it out, my mistake.

Anyways, my point is that, yes, I know all of that, I have posted repeatedly about all that. It's just that, given the seems-obvious-to-me hatred and loathing that some dev has for Bosmer, we aren't going to get the best sneak bonus. Otherwise, I completely agree with you, per the lore and previous games we should at worst have the same bonus if not more of one.

Ratzkifal

IwakuraLain42 wrote: »

If you look hard at what ZOS did over the last few years with the game then it should be very clear which groups are their focus: PvP players and PvE endgame players (primary DPS) playing the game on a PC. Everything else simply doesn't matter and they don't care about us. It's only important that they get enough new players for each Chapter (that's the main why they are structured that you can easily play as a new player).

They will not undo this ...

@IwakuraLain42 Have faith! They will listen to us eventually. ZOS does not care about PvP or PvE or even streamers. What they care about is their perception and publicity and endgame and streamers play a big role in that. All we need is attention and momentum on this subject and ZOS will take it seriously.

IwakuraLain42

Ratzkifal wrote: »

IwakuraLain42 wrote: »

If you look hard at what ZOS did over the last few years with the game then it should be very clear which groups are their focus: PvP players and PvE endgame players (primary DPS) playing the game on a PC. Everything else simply doesn't matter and they don't care about us. It's only important that they get enough new players for each Chapter (that's the main why they are structured that you can easily play as a new player).

They will not undo this ...

@IwakuraLain42 Have faith! They will listen to us eventually. ZOS does not care about PvP or PvE or even streamers. What they care about is their perception and publicity and endgame and streamers play a big role in that. All we need is attention and momentum on this subject and ZOS will take it seriously.

I really hope so, I've just come back from a long hiatus and what I see of the game now (I'm playing on PS4) compared to the game I left 8 months before and compared to other MMORPGs is not nice.

anadandy

Ratzkifal wrote: »

IwakuraLain42 wrote: »

If you look hard at what ZOS did over the last few years with the game then it should be very clear which groups are their focus: PvP players and PvE endgame players (primary DPS) playing the game on a PC. Everything else simply doesn't matter and they don't care about us. It's only important that they get enough new players for each Chapter (that's the main why they are structured that you can easily play as a new player).

They will not undo this ...

@IwakuraLain42 Have faith! They will listen to us eventually. ZOS does not care about PvP or PvE or even streamers. What they care about is their perception and publicity and endgame and streamers play a big role in that. All we need is attention and momentum on this subject and ZOS will take it seriously.

I'm curious if there will be any attention paid to the weirdness with stealth detection you discovered. Because it really sounds like a bug - and if its not a bug then it is an even bigger problem with the passive. I'd really like to hear a defense of that.

Ratzkifal

Update on the comprehensive list of arguments (WIP)

• We want more diverse race choices for characters that are focused on justice interactions. Having Khajiit be the only one with a sneaking advantage is very limiting.
• Stealth detect is useless in PvE, many people don't play PvP at all so get no use from this trait, so that is what we would give up for a bonus to sneaking for Bosmer.
  Further more the additional stealth detect in PvP is not in line with existing forms of detection as it reveals cloaked enemies without an indicator. It also gives away the existence of a hidden Bosmer to other sneaking enemies as it also increase the "danger" radius with the half opened eye indicator in which enemies can tell they are about to be revealed before the sneaking Bosmer is even made aware of the existance of their sneaking enemy.
• Doesn't fit lore

KMarble

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Update on the comprehensive list of arguments (WIP)

• We want more diverse race choices for characters that are focused on justice interactions. Having Khajiit be the only one with a sneaking advantage is very limiting.
• Stealth detect is useless in PvE, many people don't play PvP at all so get no use from this trait, so that is what we would give up for a bonus to sneaking for Bosmer.
  Further more the additional stealth detect in PvP is not in line with existing forms of detection as it reveals cloaked enemies without an indicator. It also gives away the existence of a hidden Bosmer to other sneaking enemies as it also increase the "danger" radius with the half opened eye indicator in which enemies can tell they are about to be revealed before the sneaking Bosmer is even made aware of the existance of their sneaking enemy.
• Doesn't fit lore

May I give a suggestion?

I'd take out the "many people don't play PVP" part for two reasons:
1. it's speculation (unless there are numbers given by the only entity that can verify that - ZOS , which I doubt will happen)
2. it gives a "us versus them" vibe, which I think is counter-productive and dismissive*.

* One of the arguments used against my plea on the thread I started was that playing a Bosmer thief is a thing I chose to do, but they don't play it that way, so though luck.
I prefer not to have PVers thinking that the folks who play stealthy Bosmers don't care about what they like. I think it would be better to have some people who do play PVP stating how stealth actually helped them in how they played.

Eiron77

KMarble wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Update on the comprehensive list of arguments (WIP)

• We want more diverse race choices for characters that are focused on justice interactions. Having Khajiit be the only one with a sneaking advantage is very limiting.
• Stealth detect is useless in PvE, many people don't play PvP at all so get no use from this trait, so that is what we would give up for a bonus to sneaking for Bosmer.
  Further more the additional stealth detect in PvP is not in line with existing forms of detection as it reveals cloaked enemies without an indicator. It also gives away the existence of a hidden Bosmer to other sneaking enemies as it also increase the "danger" radius with the half opened eye indicator in which enemies can tell they are about to be revealed before the sneaking Bosmer is even made aware of the existance of their sneaking enemy.
• Doesn't fit lore

May I give a suggestion?

I'd take out the "many people don't play PVP" part for two reasons:
1. it's speculation (unless there are numbers given by the only entity that can verify that - ZOS , which I doubt will happen)
2. it gives a "us versus them" vibe, which I think is counter-productive and dismissive*.

* One of the arguments used against my plea on the thread I started was that playing a Bosmer thief is a thing I chose to do, but they don't play it that way, so though luck.
I prefer not to have PVers thinking that the folks who play stealthy Bosmers don't care about what they like. I think it would be better to have some people who do play PVP stating how stealth actually helped them in how they played.

This is a good point.

I would suggest changing it to something along the lines of: "As stealth detect has no benefits in PvE, this makes it a PvP oriented passive only. When you combine this fact with the temporary penetration boost after roll dodging, a PvE player at penetration cap gains no benefit from these effects. This contradicts your original reasoning of removing the Stealthy passive, claiming a player's class that does not stealth gains no benefit from stealth passives. As now, PvE player's have no benefit from Hunter's Eye, other than a 10% speed boost after roll dodging (which is negligible for a 3skill point passive and ~3.6k stamina cost).

Eiron77

BlueRaven wrote: »

I just went ahead and took some screen shots of what the various manuals say about Wood Elves.

(Hopefully got the order correct.)

Elder Scrolls 1 Arena



Elder Scrolls 2 Daggerfall



Elder Scrolls 3 Morrowind



Elder scrolls 4 Oblivion



(There appears to be no race descriptions in the Elder Scrolls 5 Skyrim manual.)

Full manuals can be found here;

https://manuals.bethsoft.com

Any chance you can add a screen shot of ESO's original description for Bosmers? (I forgot to get one before the patch went live).

You know, to drive the point home even further.

heaven13

anadandy wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

IwakuraLain42 wrote: »

If you look hard at what ZOS did over the last few years with the game then it should be very clear which groups are their focus: PvP players and PvE endgame players (primary DPS) playing the game on a PC. Everything else simply doesn't matter and they don't care about us. It's only important that they get enough new players for each Chapter (that's the main why they are structured that you can easily play as a new player).

They will not undo this ...

@IwakuraLain42 Have faith! They will listen to us eventually. ZOS does not care about PvP or PvE or even streamers. What they care about is their perception and publicity and endgame and streamers play a big role in that. All we need is attention and momentum on this subject and ZOS will take it seriously.

I'm curious if there will be any attention paid to the weirdness with stealth detection you discovered. Because it really sounds like a bug - and if its not a bug then it is an even bigger problem with the passive. I'd really like to hear a defense of that.

I imagine this would be a "it's a feature!" bug. You can SEE the enemy so you can avoid their attacks. That's all it said - stealth detection. If you want to actually engage them while cloaked, well, that's what flare or magelight is for. So make sure to slot that skill too.

heaven13

Eiron77 wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

I just went ahead and took some screen shots of what the various manuals say about Wood Elves.

(Hopefully got the order correct.)

Elder Scrolls 1 Arena



Elder Scrolls 2 Daggerfall



Elder Scrolls 3 Morrowind



Elder scrolls 4 Oblivion



(There appears to be no race descriptions in the Elder Scrolls 5 Skyrim manual.)

Full manuals can be found here;

https://manuals.bethsoft.com

Any chance you can add a screen shot of ESO's original description for Bosmers? (I forgot to get one before the patch went live).

You know, to drive the point home even further.

Here is the full sized screenshot of the image above taken from this video that dates back to 2014.

Eiron77

heaven13 wrote: »

Eiron77 wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

I just went ahead and took some screen shots of what the various manuals say about Wood Elves.

(Hopefully got the order correct.)

Elder Scrolls 1 Arena



Elder Scrolls 2 Daggerfall



Elder Scrolls 3 Morrowind



Elder scrolls 4 Oblivion



(There appears to be no race descriptions in the Elder Scrolls 5 Skyrim manual.)

Full manuals can be found here;

https://manuals.bethsoft.com

Any chance you can add a screen shot of ESO's original description for Bosmers? (I forgot to get one before the patch went live).

You know, to drive the point home even further.

Here is the full sized screenshot of the image above taken from this video that dates back to 2014.

Thanks!

Cundu_Ertur

It's only 25 years, not like it's been established or anything.