Wood Elf/ Bosmer losing stealth passive, An open letter.

Hand_Bacon

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

I don't understand what's to argue hear, already there are ten polls where people who don't own bosmers agree that bosmer changes are stupid, bad both for gameplay and for lore..

It wouldn't matter if there were a thousand polls, wouldn't make it more or less correct in different people's eyes.

Swergdach

So, this is state of Bosmer players community right now.

Eiron77

Hand_Bacon wrote: »

Eiron77 wrote: »

The dodge rolling thing is very uninteresting to me. Temporary penetration serves no one who is at the cap, and the movement speed was just a copy/paste of an already existing skill in the bow line, that was not that great.

The most fun I've had with it is in non CP BGs and PvP where I don't run around at pen cap. Just my experience. Earlier I mentioned that I broke Senche's out of the vault so now, in the above, I do a dodgeroll and gain extra pen and ws. Optimal? Probably not. Entertaining for at least me? Yes.

And I have no interest in BG's. Ever. I've never been interested in the Senche set and I'm still not.

If ZOS had replaced stealth detection with a sneak bonus (preferably as it was before), then we would both be happy. Everyone in this thread would be happy.
We'd get our stealth play, and you'd continue with your fun in BGs.

I don't understand why there is still an argument here, it would be the perfect compromise..

Hand_Bacon

*Issue was sorted by the better parts of our nature*

JayAstrophel

Hand_Bacon wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

I don't understand what's to argue hear, already there are ten polls where people who don't own bosmers agree that bosmer changes are stupid, bad both for gameplay and for lore..

It wouldn't matter if there were a thousand polls, wouldn't make it more or less correct in different people's eyes.

Hey, man

I get that you like the new passive. I'm just sad that so many can't put it to use. If they had replaced the stealth passive with literally anything that could have been useful in PvE, I would be a bit more behind it than I am right now. Maybe even a skill that was different in PvE and PvP? (don't know how that would work, though)

I just don't understand why this passive has been made to be useless to anyone who doesn't enjoy PvP.

wedgebert

Hand_Bacon wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

I don't understand what's to argue hear, already there are ten polls where people who don't own bosmers agree that bosmer changes are stupid, bad both for gameplay and for lore..

It wouldn't matter if there were a thousand polls, wouldn't make it more or less correct in different people's eyes.

Again, you're really comparing apples to . The majority of people aren't asking to have the dodge roll removed (despite it requiring something incredibly niche to use effectively).

We want the stupid stealth detection removed and replaced with our old better at hiding stealth bonus.

You can keep your dodge roll buff that is an active decrease in damage if used offensively since you would get more damage from a single use of any attack power than from the extra penetration (and you'll use less stamina to boot). Not to mention that penetration doesn't work on shields or against blocks.

Hand_Bacon

JayAstrophel wrote: »

Hey, man

I get that you like the new passive. I'm just sad that so many can't put it to use. If they had replaced the stealth passive with literally anything that could have been useful in PvE, I would be a bit more behind it than I am right now. Maybe even a skill that was different in PvE and PvP? (don't know how that would work, though)

I just don't understand why this passive has been made to be useless to anyone who doesn't enjoy PvP.

That would be an interesting idea, but I don't know if I trust ESO to pull something like that off without some odd complications. Like I stated before I'd be for the return of the stealth passive but I'm not ready to give up the new to get it personally. Doesn't mean anyone needs to feel the same way.

I wondering if its pve application will come. It may seem far-fetched and odd to change it at a time before the applicable content. Maybe since they were doing a big racial update. I don't know, maybe a glimmer of hope for everyone else.

MartiniDaniels

level of skill required to get use of hunter passive (Kristofer ESO)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=btvHV678kaM

Hand_Bacon

wedgebert wrote: »

Hand_Bacon wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

I don't understand what's to argue hear, already there are ten polls where people who don't own bosmers agree that bosmer changes are stupid, bad both for gameplay and for lore..

It wouldn't matter if there were a thousand polls, wouldn't make it more or less correct in different people's eyes.

Again, you're really comparing apples to . The majority of people aren't asking to have the dodge roll removed (despite it requiring something incredibly niche to use effectively).

We want the stupid stealth detection removed and replaced with our old better at hiding stealth bonus.

You can keep your dodge roll buff that is an active decrease in damage if used offensively since you would get more damage from a single use of any attack power than from the extra penetration (and you'll use less stamina to boot). Not to mention that penetration doesn't work on shields or against blocks.

I get your point. The way I see it, the roll dodge, is not as "in place of x" but "in addition to". There are a number of things to dodge in combat anyway so why not get up with increased pen etc? That's part of my experience anyway.

My objection to the polls was on the quantity being introduced as a substitute or evidence of merit. I'd do the same thing if we were literally talking about apples vs oranges. Merit is determined by the individual, the number of people that feel one way or another about it should not factor in to the individual's determination.

anadandy

@BlueRaven - to answer your earlier question about Pax East

Will we see you at our next #BethesdaDays event? Join the ESO team on March 29th and 30th at Laugh Boston & MJ O’Connors.

Play Elsweyr for the first time, win swag, and meet other members of the community! No #PAXEast badge necessary.

https://twitter.com/TESOnline/status/1098995097943760896

Cundu_Ertur

Hand_Bacon wrote: »

anadandy wrote: »

The problem with your example is that yes, seeking while sneaking in real world combat is useful.

In game however, stealth detection in PVE is useless because NPCs don't stealth. What I, and many on this thread and others, are frustrated by is that we had a useful passive that benefitted our style of gameplay removed for one that is without utility and benefits no playstyle outside of PVP.

We still have not had any response to that, which is why we keep trying.

In my perception its not lost, but changed. You gain a new ability while retaining the old via different means, the set bonuses, while not really losing much.

And in my perception something valuable and useful was completely ripped away, and replaced with its complete opposite thing that is both insulting and utterly useless. I have retained nothing.

I also refute your humpty dumpty logic that up is down, that moving fast is the same as standing still, and counter-stealth is the same as stealth. Bosmer have never had a rite of guarding. There is no epic about the 1000 benefits of seeing things. Nothing will ever change the fact that this is a guard's skill, and Bosmer have never, ever been guards. Ever. They have always and forever been the guard's bane, the anti-guard, the thief.

All your hand-waving and word-twisting mean nothing. Even your examples mean nothing. When you would scout, would you set off in your dress uniforms, accompanied by your marching bands and bagpipers, along with your honor guard's banners waving high? I have to doubt you'd be terribly effective. Hey, maybe scouts need to be stealthy. Some of my attitude may reflect my naval background. The only way to be stealthy at sea is not to be looking. Radars, sonar, and radios off; because when you are looking you can be seen much farther away than you will ever be able to detect anything.

BlueRaven

anadandy wrote: »

@BlueRaven - to answer your earlier question about Pax East

Will we see you at our next #BethesdaDays event? Join the ESO team on March 29th and 30th at Laugh Boston & MJ O’Connors.

Play Elsweyr for the first time, win swag, and meet other members of the community! No #PAXEast badge necessary.

https://twitter.com/TESOnline/status/1098995097943760896

Thanks!

Hand_Bacon

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

All your hand-waving and word-twisting mean nothing. Even your examples mean nothing. When you would scout, would you set off in your dress uniforms, accompanied by your marching bands and bagpipers, along with your honor guard's banners waving high? I have to doubt you'd be terribly effective. Hey, maybe scouts need to be stealthy. Some of my attitude may reflect my naval background. The only way to be stealthy at sea is not to be looking. Radars, sonar, and radios off; because when you are looking you can be seen much farther away than you will ever be able to detect anything.

Talk about humpty dumpty logic. No school today?

I get it, you're flustered and I'm just having a conversation. Odd that you would attempt to act condescending towards conversation in such a childish manner. There is nothing up my sleeve, no slight of hand tricks, I'm just having a conversation.

Jaraal

Hand_Bacon wrote: »

I wondering if its pve application will come. It may seem far-fetched and odd to change it at a time before the applicable content. Maybe since they were doing a big racial update. I don't know, maybe a glimmer of hope for everyone else.

You may be on to something here. Would not surprise me in the least if ZOS is waiting for everyone to use their free race change tokens to swap out their crippled Bosmer toons for something else, and then later introduce something that makes wood elves relevant again. And then:

“For the next 24 hours, we are offering two for one race change tokens in the crown store! Go back to being the stealthy Bosmer we intended from the beginning! And for the next hour, we are offering a 5% discount to ESO Plus subscribers!”

KMarble

Linaleah wrote: »

and here is the best part? they do NOT have to take away your fun to fix OUR fun. all they have to do is change stealth detection back to reduced detection radius. THAT's IT. and those of us who play for stealth? GET OUR LORE BASED STEALTH BACK. its really that simple.

(I agree with you, I'm just using your post because it touches on something that has been puzzling me)

The question is to @Hand_Bacon and others who say we shouldn't be complaining about Bosmers loss of stealth. Why are you making this into a zero sum game?

I've been following this issue since it was first announced, and most people who complained about it only want stealth back. We don't want the (for you) good new racials taken away, we don't want other races nerfed. We want our stealth back. Why does it bother you?

Eiron77

Hand_Bacon wrote: »

Eiron77 wrote: »

You've stated multiple times you don't like stealth play. Which is fine.

WHOA! I've never stated this and it'd do you good to correct yourself.

lol I've actually stated the opposite.

wow

Yep, I think you're right. I got mixed up with a different thread from last night. I removed that portion from my comment.

But, my point still stands that there is an easy compromise to satisfy everyone.

But until then you're just hitting your head against a brick wall trying to convince us to just be satisfied with what they did to wood elves. And vice-versa.

Hand_Bacon

@KMarble

I'm not saying there shouldn't be a discussion about it. By all means complain. I think it suits all of our purposes to do so when it is done without doomsday hyperbolic rhetoric which creates false narratives or the impression of 100% solidarity.

I've stated a couple times now that the return of that passive is not something I object to, but I don't "personally" want it to REPLACE the new passive. That's why I've chosen to engage in conversation about it. I would hope, that those who are in woe over the loss of that passive would find a way to make hay while the sun is shining in a different direction. Wanting everyone to feel despair and grief is something I'll never sign on with. I've handed out agrees and insightfuls to those in opposition when I find merit in counter arguments. Its possible to find merit, agree with logical process, and appreciate arguments that one doesn't agree with totally.

Sometimes its like I'm a heretic for just wanting conversation and pointing out when things cross the line.

Arato

Hand_Bacon wrote: »

Arato wrote: »

No it can't be said the same for avoidance because most people used the stealth improving gear AND the racial benefits on top of each other.

After all is calculated doing the math on this we would really be talking about in-game inches.

It's meters though, about melee range difference. If you get within melee range of enemies they spot you even with both sets, with both sets and racial bonus you can almost walk on top of them. If there's a normal sized hallway with a guard on either side of it, they will spot you now while wearing both sets.

Hand_Bacon

Arato wrote: »

It's meters though, about melee range difference. If you get within melee range of enemies they spot you even with both sets, with both sets and racial bonus you can almost walk on top of them. If there's a normal sized hallway with a guard on either side of it, they will spot you now while wearing both sets.

So we are talking with 7 medium and both set bonuses? I thought the beginning point was like 6m from behind and 14m or so from the front. With both set bonuses and 7 medium with a hallway you are completely unable to sneak by? Even with abilities? Cloak lasts for 2.9 seconds. Is the hallway lined with guards?

Cundu_Ertur

Hand_Bacon wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

All your hand-waving and word-twisting mean nothing. Even your examples mean nothing. When you would scout, would you set off in your dress uniforms, accompanied by your marching bands and bagpipers, along with your honor guard's banners waving high? I have to doubt you'd be terribly effective. Hey, maybe scouts need to be stealthy. Some of my attitude may reflect my naval background. The only way to be stealthy at sea is not to be looking. Radars, sonar, and radios off; because when you are looking you can be seen much farther away than you will ever be able to detect anything.

Talk about humpty dumpty logic. No school today?

I get it, you're flustered and I'm just having a conversation. Odd that you would attempt to act condescending towards conversation in such a childish manner. There is nothing up my sleeve, no slight of hand tricks, I'm just having a conversation.

No ad hominem attacks at all. Just a conversation.

Right.

Hand_Bacon

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Hand_Bacon wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

All your hand-waving and word-twisting mean nothing. Even your examples mean nothing. When you would scout, would you set off in your dress uniforms, accompanied by your marching bands and bagpipers, along with your honor guard's banners waving high? I have to doubt you'd be terribly effective. Hey, maybe scouts need to be stealthy. Some of my attitude may reflect my naval background. The only way to be stealthy at sea is not to be looking. Radars, sonar, and radios off; because when you are looking you can be seen much farther away than you will ever be able to detect anything.

Talk about humpty dumpty logic. No school today?

I get it, you're flustered and I'm just having a conversation. Odd that you would attempt to act condescending towards conversation in such a childish manner. There is nothing up my sleeve, no slight of hand tricks, I'm just having a conversation.

No ad hominem attacks at all. Just a conversation.

Right.

If you read the entire post that I quoted from and previous posts, you'll see the context. That was introduced by that person and I simply gave it back. I've pointed out before how I hadn't and how it wouldn't be constructive. That poster must have been unaware.

EDIT: I couldn't find any rolling eyes so how about a wink Since you know exactly what I'm talking about.

Hand_Bacon

Eiron77 wrote: »

Yep, I think you're right. I got mixed up with a different thread from last night. I removed that portion from my comment.

Thank you for that, I'll do likewise.

KMarble

Hand_Bacon wrote: »

@KMarble

I'm not saying there shouldn't be a discussion about it. By all means complain. I think it suits all of our purposes to do so when it is done without doomsday hyperbolic rhetoric which creates false narratives or the impression of 100% solidarity.

I've stated a couple times now that the return of that passive is not something I object to, but I don't "personally" want it to REPLACE the new passive. That's why I've chosen to engage in conversation about it. I would hope, that those who are in woe over the loss of that passive would find a way to make hay while the sun is shining in a different direction. Wanting everyone to feel despair and grief is something I'll never sign on with. I've handed out agrees and insightfuls to those in opposition when I find merit in counter arguments. Its possible to find merit, agree with logical process, and appreciate arguments that one doesn't agree with totally.

Sometimes its like I'm a heretic for just wanting conversation and pointing out when things cross the line.

Thank you.

To me what is exasperating is that whenever there is a conversation about stealth, which is only one of the 3 passives, there are replies like yours saying that they don't want the other 2 passives removed. It feels like we aren't writing in the same language.

I don't believe in having fun by taking the fun away from other people. I'm glad the devs gave the brave Bosmer warriors who die on Cyrodiil everyday an advantage. I'm not a good enough player to go there and survive for more than a few seconds, but wouldn't having the stealth back help you there too?

I think the problem is that you're looking at it as if the passive is one thing, and that to change one aspect of it would be to change the whole. I see it as 3 different traits that could be modified separately.

Cundu_Ertur

KMarble wrote: »

Hand_Bacon wrote: »

@KMarble

I'm not saying there shouldn't be a discussion about it. By all means complain. I think it suits all of our purposes to do so when it is done without doomsday hyperbolic rhetoric which creates false narratives or the impression of 100% solidarity.

I've stated a couple times now that the return of that passive is not something I object to, but I don't "personally" want it to REPLACE the new passive. That's why I've chosen to engage in conversation about it. I would hope, that those who are in woe over the loss of that passive would find a way to make hay while the sun is shining in a different direction. Wanting everyone to feel despair and grief is something I'll never sign on with. I've handed out agrees and insightfuls to those in opposition when I find merit in counter arguments. Its possible to find merit, agree with logical process, and appreciate arguments that one doesn't agree with totally.

Sometimes its like I'm a heretic for just wanting conversation and pointing out when things cross the line.

I think the problem is that you're looking at it as if the passive is one thing, and that to change one aspect of it would be to change the whole. I see it as 3 different traits that could be modified separately.

Exactly.
When this was first announced, with the stealth detection (which most people missed at first since the wording was and still is pretty ambiguous) and a 20% to speed after a roll dodge, my complaints about the detection bit were answered with: "But the movement bonus is so sweet." Wasn't talking about that, aside from noting it either wouldn't stack or would be much less than what it was. But I acknowledged then that I could see the use of it with a bow/DW DPS, which the subsequent pen bonus kinda helps with (if you aren't at cap); roll in with DW, stabby-stabby, swap to bow, roll out more quickly, and pop a cap snipe in they aaaa..., umm, hiney. Leeching strikes or a netch to keep your stam pool full, and fun times ensue. Ok, seems legit. Doesn't change that the detection is crap.

Hand_Bacon

KMarble wrote: »

I think the problem is that you're looking at it as if the passive is one thing, and that to change one aspect of it would be to change the whole. I see it as 3 different traits that could be modified separately.

Can we just ask them to take our 10% reduced fall damage in exchange for giving back the 3m reduction? Seems more fit for Khajiits always landing on their feet anyways.

I don't know if I really want to give up that increased ability to find other non bosmer/khajiit stealthers first.

KMarble

Hand_Bacon wrote: »

KMarble wrote: »

I think the problem is that you're looking at it as if the passive is one thing, and that to change one aspect of it would be to change the whole. I see it as 3 different traits that could be modified separately.

Can we just ask them to take our 10% reduced fall damage in exchange for giving back the 3m reduction? Seems more fit for Khajiits always landing on their feet anyways.

I don't know if I really want to give up that increased ability to find other non bosmer/khajiit stealthers first.

Not trying to be contentious here, just curious because I don't play like you do. Does the stealth detection actually benefit your play style?

From what I've read so far once you use it, you get out of stealth yourself and because of the very small radius, you'll be within reach of a melee attack. Or did I understand it all wrong?

Arato

Hand_Bacon wrote: »

Arato wrote: »

It's meters though, about melee range difference. If you get within melee range of enemies they spot you even with both sets, with both sets and racial bonus you can almost walk on top of them. If there's a normal sized hallway with a guard on either side of it, they will spot you now while wearing both sets.

So we are talking with 7 medium and both set bonuses? I thought the beginning point was like 6m from behind and 14m or so from the front. With both set bonuses and 7 medium with a hallway you are completely unable to sneak by? Even with abilities? Cloak lasts for 2.9 seconds. Is the hallway lined with guards?

cloak is invisibility which is a different mechanic, but stam builds don't have enough magicka to constantly spam that.

max_only

Hand_Bacon wrote: »

Shouting down the opposition isn't constructive.

Who is shouting?

I find it interesting that no one engages with the reasonable measured responses in all these threads and only jump on the emotional responses.

It’s almost like attacking tone is a way of avoiding the real issue.

I’ve answered all these objections and more and yet, it remains ignored in favor of pricking emotional responses from other people.

It’s interesting.

Hand_Bacon

KMarble wrote: »

From what I've read so far once you use it, you get out of stealth yourself and because of the very small radius, you'll be within reach of a melee attack. Or did I understand it all wrong?

The stealth detection is always there when you're moving around, its not only after you roll dodge. When you roll dodge you get the pen/speed and yes, that pops you out of stealth.

Hand_Bacon

max_only wrote: »

Hand_Bacon wrote: »

Shouting down the opposition isn't constructive.

Who is shouting?

I find it interesting that no one engages with the reasonable measured responses in all these threads and only jump on the emotional responses.

It’s almost like attacking tone is a way of avoiding the real issue.

I’ve answered all these objections and more and yet, it remains ignored in favor of pricking emotional responses from other people.

It’s interesting.

Seriously, that was not even indirectly having anything to do with you. Look at the original post and posts leading up to that and maybe you'll get the context. The term "shouting down" is not in reference to volume or the act of yelling. Its a tactic in ignoring or marginalizing opposition.