Wood Elf/ Bosmer losing stealth passive, An open letter.

Tasear

Koronach wrote: »

If it comes down to lore I doubt they will do anything about it. They seem to throw lore to the side when making changes, I mean.

Koronach wrote: »

I’m guessing many of you will be interested to know more about the racial balance changes. While we aren’t ready to share specific details yet, here’s a peek at the goals driving the team’s effort:

When selecting a race, players should have multiple effective options for any given gameplay role. The combat power provided by each race should be more equalized. Players should feel a stronger sense of power progression through racial passives as they level up. The unique feeling and flavor each race provides should be retained and enhanced where possible, and remain faithful to established lore.

That's all for now. Feedback, as always, is welcome.

Sorry none of those are even close to true for Argonians. Also how is removing Argonian poison resistance staying faithful to established lore?



It's all over the actual in game lore from quest NPC's. Let's see we have the Bleakrock spider quest, Eastmarch Daril quest, Green-Venom-Tongue Shadowscale stating he got his name because he drank so much poison, his tongue is permanently stained green, Jee-Lar mentioning it in that poison sniffer lizard quest, and prob others I'm forgetting.
@ZOS_RobGarrett @ZOS_Gilliam care to elaborate on this epic lore fail?

That's about as lore breaking as you can get, saying a race is resistant to something in game and removing it from them.

Now lets just find something in lore for bosmer sheath in game.

Ratzkifal

Koronach wrote: »

If it comes down to lore I doubt they will do anything about it. They seem to throw lore to the side when making changes, I mean.

Koronach wrote: »

I’m guessing many of you will be interested to know more about the racial balance changes. While we aren’t ready to share specific details yet, here’s a peek at the goals driving the team’s effort:

When selecting a race, players should have multiple effective options for any given gameplay role. The combat power provided by each race should be more equalized. Players should feel a stronger sense of power progression through racial passives as they level up. The unique feeling and flavor each race provides should be retained and enhanced where possible, and remain faithful to established lore.

That's all for now. Feedback, as always, is welcome.

Sorry none of those are even close to true for Argonians. Also how is removing Argonian poison resistance staying faithful to established lore?



It's all over the actual in game lore from quest NPC's. Let's see we have the Bleakrock spider quest, Eastmarch Daril quest, Green-Venom-Tongue Shadowscale stating he got his name because he drank so much poison, his tongue is permanently stained green, Jee-Lar mentioning it in that poison sniffer lizard quest, and prob others I'm forgetting.
@ZOS_RobGarrett @ZOS_Gilliam care to elaborate on this epic lore fail?

That's about as lore breaking as you can get, saying a race is resistant to something in game and removing it from them.

@Koronach Personally that is an issue I can overlook although I would obviously prefer it if Bosmer and Argonians were both resistant to both, as it should be. Doesn't sound very bad from a balance perspective either as Fire and spellresistance are much more universally applicable as either one. Poison is a bit more common than disease, but not nearly as common as fire or magicka I feel.

Ratzkifal

Tasear wrote: »

Koronach wrote: »

If it comes down to lore I doubt they will do anything about it. They seem to throw lore to the side when making changes, I mean.

Koronach wrote: »

I’m guessing many of you will be interested to know more about the racial balance changes. While we aren’t ready to share specific details yet, here’s a peek at the goals driving the team’s effort:

When selecting a race, players should have multiple effective options for any given gameplay role. The combat power provided by each race should be more equalized. Players should feel a stronger sense of power progression through racial passives as they level up. The unique feeling and flavor each race provides should be retained and enhanced where possible, and remain faithful to established lore.

That's all for now. Feedback, as always, is welcome.

Sorry none of those are even close to true for Argonians. Also how is removing Argonian poison resistance staying faithful to established lore?



It's all over the actual in game lore from quest NPC's. Let's see we have the Bleakrock spider quest, Eastmarch Daril quest, Green-Venom-Tongue Shadowscale stating he got his name because he drank so much poison, his tongue is permanently stained green, Jee-Lar mentioning it in that poison sniffer lizard quest, and prob others I'm forgetting.
@ZOS_RobGarrett @ZOS_Gilliam care to elaborate on this epic lore fail?

That's about as lore breaking as you can get, saying a race is resistant to something in game and removing it from them.

Now lets just find something in lore for bosmer sheath in game.

@Tasear If you meant to say stealth... well we have a lot gathered already

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Tasear

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Tasear wrote: »

Koronach wrote: »

If it comes down to lore I doubt they will do anything about it. They seem to throw lore to the side when making changes, I mean.

Koronach wrote: »

I’m guessing many of you will be interested to know more about the racial balance changes. While we aren’t ready to share specific details yet, here’s a peek at the goals driving the team’s effort:

When selecting a race, players should have multiple effective options for any given gameplay role. The combat power provided by each race should be more equalized. Players should feel a stronger sense of power progression through racial passives as they level up. The unique feeling and flavor each race provides should be retained and enhanced where possible, and remain faithful to established lore.

That's all for now. Feedback, as always, is welcome.

Sorry none of those are even close to true for Argonians. Also how is removing Argonian poison resistance staying faithful to established lore?



It's all over the actual in game lore from quest NPC's. Let's see we have the Bleakrock spider quest, Eastmarch Daril quest, Green-Venom-Tongue Shadowscale stating he got his name because he drank so much poison, his tongue is permanently stained green, Jee-Lar mentioning it in that poison sniffer lizard quest, and prob others I'm forgetting.
@ZOS_RobGarrett @ZOS_Gilliam care to elaborate on this epic lore fail?

That's about as lore breaking as you can get, saying a race is resistant to something in game and removing it from them.

Now lets just find something in lore for bosmer sheath in game.

@Tasear If you meant to say stealth... well we have a lot gathered already

Ratzkifal wrote: »

😅 Yeah bit out it and under the weather... though not to say would not of made the typo nevertheless.

Tigerseye

So, I play a Bosmer Warden and I haven't really noticed any difference when I steal.

I can't speak for stealth (or stealth detection) in PVP, but in PVE the changes don't really seem to have made a noticable difference.

A_Silverius

Noticeable for me though, its much harder to sneak pass npcs now and especially when questing. It has ruined my sneak thief bosmer I had created, its also the only character I play on so.... I'm kinda screwed I guess

Jaraal

Aela_Dragonrider wrote: »

We don't NEED to detect 'those avoiding detection'. We want to be the ones avoiding detection.

Exactly. Doesn't matter if detection is considered part of stealth or not. What matters is that detection has absolutely no use for the majority of players. And is virtually useless in PvP, as the detectees already see you when your detection actually kicks in. So:

Stealth = useful for everyone
Stealth detection = useless for PvE, crippled for PvP.


It's not rocket surgery!

Jaraal

A_Silverius wrote: »

Noticeable for me though, its much harder to sneak pass npcs now and especially when questing. It has ruined my sneak thief bosmer I had created, its also the only character I play on so.... I'm kinda screwed I guess

Agreed, my Bosmer main gets caught way more often and collects bounty too fast, so his thieving career is over. But my Khajiits are getting caught less.... somehow their stealth got buffed without being announced.

I'm quite sure Khajiits were made OP with this update ahead of the upcoming Khajiit chapter for a reason. And that's to get more people interested in the race, and encouraging them to buy the next expansion. So, even more insulting that Bosmers were sold out for coin.

max_only

Marcus_Thracius wrote: »

Vote with your wallet - otherwise they ignore you

I think it was Rich Lambert who said “You know you don’t have to be here” in response to criticism. Somehow I think they’d rather feel “right” than acquiesce to “customers”. I found the quote. https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/3160562/#Comment_3160562

Besides they are counting on bringing in a bunch of Khajiit players to make up for anything lost. Cats appeal to the internet meme community (3rd person speech is basically Can Haz Cheezeburger), to people who don’t care about Elder Scrolls but like cats, to people who identify as furry/anthro, etc. They’re planning on raking it in with the flash in the pan gaming community. Those are also the people who are most likely to splurge on cosmetics to make their kitten unique.

Jannisaries

I think people are giving the devs too much credit. It seems to me that they made some sloppy changes and then stretched "lore" to the breaking point to justify it. Perhaps if the previous Loremaster , Lawrence Schick, were still on board he would have been able to corral them and prevent this silliness.

I agree with @max_only in that they would "rather feel “right” than acquiesce to “customers”.

For me there is a silver lining to this. I had pre-ordered the previous two chapters but now I don't have to worry about finding the cash for this one. There is too much risk in buying something that will, in all likelihood, include even more lore breaking changes. My eso+ sub runs until mid-April and I have until then to decide if I just chuck it all together.

KMarble

Tasear wrote: »

Now lets just find something in lore for bosmer sheath in game.

I posted some examples yesterday:

KMarble wrote: »

You don't even have to go outside ESO to see it mentioned. Tthere are at least 3 quests in this game that were created around the concept of the right of theft.
- The first one is given to us by a guy who's hanging around Elden Root near the miggens - he stole a bow, invoked the right of theft, but his partner in crime took the bow and fled. You need to bring the bow back.
- the second is in - I think - Greenshade. You're hired by a loan shark to get some money back from a bosmer. It turns out the thief who took the money is asking for something unexpected when they invoke the right of theft,
- then there is one that is tied up to the main questline for AD, and it's called "Right of Theft".

The case could be made that two of the three are side quests and can be ignored, but the third example is part of the main quest for AD. At some point the developers thought that was a defining characteristic of wood elves and used it as the reason for those quests to exist. Akin to using the lore around the Hist on quests related to Argonians.

ETA: if memory serves, in every single one of the quests I mentioned above, there is a dialogue tree that allows the player to know more about the right of theft.

BlueRaven

KMarble wrote: »

Tasear wrote: »

Now lets just find something in lore for bosmer sheath in game.

I posted some examples yesterday:

KMarble wrote: »

You don't even have to go outside ESO to see it mentioned. Tthere are at least 3 quests in this game that were created around the concept of the right of theft.
- The first one is given to us by a guy who's hanging around Elden Root near the miggens - he stole a bow, invoked the right of theft, but his partner in crime took the bow and fled. You need to bring the bow back.
- the second is in - I think - Greenshade. You're hired by a loan shark to get some money back from a bosmer. It turns out the thief who took the money is asking for something unexpected when they invoke the right of theft,
- then there is one that is tied up to the main questline for AD, and it's called "Right of Theft".

The case could be made that two of the three are side quests and can be ignored, but the third example is part of the main quest for AD. At some point the developers thought that was a defining characteristic of wood elves and used it as the reason for those quests to exist. Akin to using the lore around the Hist on quests related to Argonians.

ETA: if memory serves, in every single one of the quests I mentioned above, there is a dialogue tree that allows the player to know more about the right of theft.

Wasn’t there also another one in Greenshade that involved a Bosmer at a bank?

He wanted to get the Altmer to leave so he stole things from one house and put them in another to make them fight amongst each other?

KMarble

BlueRaven wrote: »

Wasn’t there also another one in Greenshade that involved a Bosmer at a bank?

He wanted to get the Altmer to leave so he stole things from one house and put them in another to make them fight amongst each other?

You're right. But I don't think that one involved the right of theft.

BlueRaven

KMarble wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

Wasn’t there also another one in Greenshade that involved a Bosmer at a bank?

He wanted to get the Altmer to leave so he stole things from one house and put them in another to make them fight amongst each other?

You're right. But I don't think that one involved the right of theft.

That’s true. I was just thinking it was a Bosmer and it involved theft.

max_only

Tasear wrote: »

What about adding 10% movement speed in stealth instead of penetration?

There’s a hard cap on speed though. Also, personally, I find if my character moves too much when I gently tap a movement key, I actually get caught more often. Sometimes I even turn on walk to get my positioning juuuuuuust right.

I wouldn’t say no though. It’s just not the same flavor.

Jaraal

Also curious that with the Thieves Guild / Dark Brotherhood anniversary event near, that they are gimping Bosmers just in time for earning event tickets and loot boxes from completing Sacraments and Heists. People who's only good thieves are wood elves will be at a serious disadvantage, and ZOS will be forcing players to scramble at the last minute to level up Legerdeman, TG, and DB skills on their new Khajiit thieves.

Hardly seems fair to dump the nerf on us at such an inopportune time. Sometimes it seems as if they plan these things to cause the most angst possible. Just like when they released THIS patch ahead of the Undaunted event, where they stated that we may have trouble queuing successfully.... and you saw what a debacle that turned into.

I just don't understand why they do some of these things, and it's compounded by the wall of silence that follows. Maybe if they actually talked to us about these issues instead of ignoring them, people wouldn't be so upset.

Sylvermynx

Jaraal wrote: »

Also curious that with the Thieves Guild / Dark Brotherhood anniversary event near, that they are gimping Bosmers just in time for earning event tickets and loot boxes from completing Sacraments and Heists. People who's only good thieves are wood elves will be at a serious disadvantage, and ZOS will be forcing players to scramble at the last minute to level up Legerdeman, TG, and DB skills on their new Khajiit thieves.

Hardly seems fair to dump the nerf on us at such an inopportune time. Sometimes it seems as if they plan these things to cause the most angst possible. Just like when they released THIS patch ahead of the Undaunted event, where they stated that we may have trouble queuing successfully.... and you saw what a debacle that turned into.

I just don't understand why they do some of these things, and it's compounded by the wall of silence that follows. Maybe if they actually talked to us about these issues instead of ignoring them, people wouldn't be so upset.

Well..... conspiracy theory incoming (I'm the queen of them really.... just ask anyone who knows me).

Perhaps there's an actual deep meaning to gimping Bosmer just now. As in - they have some reason to NOT want people to get all the tickets they can in TG and DB, for whatever reason?

Now, I don't (as I've said previously) play my Bosmers as sneak thieves. And if I don't get tickets from TG and DB events, I don't really care (because I won't - I don't play those DLC). But a LOT of people will care, won't they? Pretty sure that's a given. So.... the thought that comes to my mind is that the devs have done this whole stupid "*** on the lore" thing because they don't want TG and DB to give so many tickets that the next event or so won't be bothered with.

As in.... the BIG KAHUNA event - the five week anniversary special....

Yep. Pretty sure I'm blowing smoke.... but still....

Arato

Tasear wrote: »

What about adding 10% movement speed in stealth instead of penetration?

Useless, set bonuses from gear, vampirism passives, and a nightblade skill all outstrip that, meanwhile the racial stealth bonus is stronger than any set bonus, to give you a comparison for power.

Now if you made the bonus +30% speed in stealth, it'd be slightly faster than default move speed so slightly better than night's silence or other means of ignoring stealth's movement speed penalty, that would be comparable to -3 detect radius from the racial vs -2 detect radius from sets. I'd still rather have -3 stealth detect radius, but at least then it'd be somewhat comparable in power. Khajiit would still hide better, Bosmer would just be the fastest race in stealth.

Arato

Tigerseye wrote: »

So, I play a Bosmer Warden and I haven't really noticed any difference when I steal.

I can't speak for stealth (or stealth detection) in PVP, but in PVE the changes don't really seem to have made a noticable difference.

Try doing heists or sacraments where you're actually timed and it matters whether you get detected or not. Try to get all objectives.

Jaraal

Sylvermynx wrote: »

So.... the thought that comes to my mind is that the devs have done this whole stupid "*** on the lore" thing because they don't want TG and DB to give so many tickets that the next event or so won't be bothered with.

You know, that hadn't even occurred to me, but now that you mention it..... they did say that event tickets would be available for purchase in the crown store. Perhaps this upcoming event will be the one? That would be a terrible coincidence. Please tell me it's not planned that way!

Arato wrote: »

Try doing heists or sacraments where you're actually timed and it matters whether you get detected or not. Try to get all objectives.

Exactly. They are hard enough to do perfectly with a maxed out stealth character, let alone one gimped because his stealth bonus was removed.

Sylvermynx

Jaraal wrote: »

Sylvermynx wrote: »

So.... the thought that comes to my mind is that the devs have done this whole stupid "*** on the lore" thing because they don't want TG and DB to give so many tickets that the next event or so won't be bothered with.

You know, that hadn't even occurred to me, but now that you mention it..... they did say that event tickets would be available for purchase in the crown store. Perhaps this upcoming event will be the one? That would be a terrible coincidence. Please tell me it's not planned that way!

Well.... I hope I didn't in this case hit that nail dead center. But... I have some real issues with the way this is playing out....

wedgebert

Arato wrote: »

Tasear wrote: »

What about adding 10% movement speed in stealth instead of penetration?

Useless, set bonuses from gear, vampirism passives, and a nightblade skill all outstrip that, meanwhile the racial stealth bonus is stronger than any set bonus, to give you a comparison for power.

Now if you made the bonus +30% speed in stealth, it'd be slightly faster than default move speed so slightly better than night's silence or other means of ignoring stealth's movement speed penalty, that would be comparable to -3 detect radius from the racial vs -2 detect radius from sets. I'd still rather have -3 stealth detect radius, but at least then it'd be somewhat comparable in power. Khajiit would still hide better, Bosmer would just be the fastest race in stealth.

I would be against this, mainly because I don't think you should ever be able to sneak faster than the default walk speed.

BlueRaven

I think I lucked out in a way. I wanted my Bosmer to be a "hero", so I did the thieves/assassins guild quests on my Kahjit.

Sylvermynx

BlueRaven wrote: »

I think I lucked out in a way. I wanted my Bosmer to be a "hero", so I did the thieves/assassins guild quests on my Kahjit.

Probably a REALLY good job then!

Jaraal

wedgebert wrote: »

Arato wrote: »

Tasear wrote: »

What about adding 10% movement speed in stealth instead of penetration?

Useless, set bonuses from gear, vampirism passives, and a nightblade skill all outstrip that, meanwhile the racial stealth bonus is stronger than any set bonus, to give you a comparison for power.

Now if you made the bonus +30% speed in stealth, it'd be slightly faster than default move speed so slightly better than night's silence or other means of ignoring stealth's movement speed penalty, that would be comparable to -3 detect radius from the racial vs -2 detect radius from sets. I'd still rather have -3 stealth detect radius, but at least then it'd be somewhat comparable in power. Khajiit would still hide better, Bosmer would just be the fastest race in stealth.

I would be against this, mainly because I don't think you should ever be able to sneak faster than the default walk speed.

My thieves all sneak faster than they run, (including the gimped Bosmer), with 5 pc Night's Silence (all armor in Divines), Steed Mundus (increased to 10% with Murkmire), Concealed Weapon slotted (+25% to sneak speed), 3pcs of Swift jewelry, and Windrunning CP passive. Stage 4 vampire Dark Stalker passive also removes the sneak speed penalty, just like the Night's Silence set.

They are all at the movement cap, so adding speed to a racial passive is pointless.

Tigerseye

Arato wrote: »

Tigerseye wrote: »

So, I play a Bosmer Warden and I haven't really noticed any difference when I steal.

I can't speak for stealth (or stealth detection) in PVP, but in PVE the changes don't really seem to have made a noticable difference.

Try doing heists or sacraments where you're actually timed and it matters whether you get detected or not. Try to get all objectives.

Oh, OK - well, I gave up doing those ages ago, anyway.

By the time I stopped, I could normally do them all within the time (without any special gear,) but I found it so annoying when I didn't, that it didn't seem worth the stress.

But, yeah, I can imagine that if you enjoy doing them that it must be a loss.

I will also add that I am seeing even fewer Bosmer players than usual, since the change.

So any notion they may have had of more racial "balance" seems to have failed, so far.

Tigerseye

Hand_Bacon wrote: »

@Aela_Dragonrider
I understand that and have stated on many occasions that I wouldn't mind it being given back. I'm actually good either way, whether it comes back or not. If it doesn't I'd like to see detection radius at least increased to the same as magelight and any bugs with it ironed out.

However, when you say "we" I imagine that you are referring to just those players who are here and who have stated that they want it back. When you say, "we dont NEED" I have to assume that as some of us who pvp (my personal sample size is limited) don't find it useless, just not where it should be. I only bring this up as we have no idea what the consensus is or anyway to accurately extrapolate it. I appreciate the well=meaning efforts of those like @Ratzkifal in attempting what they are doing.

I think the issue is that most racial abilities (i.e. set abilities you can't select, or change) are not only of any use in PVP.

A lot of people simply don't PVP, at all.

Making an entire race into something that is perceived as only being any good for PVP is a huge mistake.

So, either they need to add a lot of new ways in which stealth detection is really useful in PVE (and not ust in one, or two areas/instances - in them all), or they need to change the racial passive back and/or into something more universally useful.

Tigerseye

max_only wrote: »

Marcus_Thracius wrote: »

Vote with your wallet - otherwise they ignore you

I think it was Rich Lambert who said “You know you don’t have to be here” in response to criticism. Somehow I think they’d rather feel “right” than acquiesce to “customers”. I found the quote. https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/3160562/#Comment_3160562

That is a pretty ignorant thing to say.

He's just showing he doesn't have a very high IQ - emotionally speaking, at least.

People are "here" because they like the game, as a whole, but find it has certain ongoing issues that need attention.

Telling them they should leave if they don't like that is remarkably crass.

It's what you would expect from a player troll; not a dev.

Beardimus

I understand peoples frustrations. For me its simple, i have one main, and he's staying put.

I have a bosmer thief Alt tho rolled for fun for TG. And this would have annoyed me, but we get the free changes. So its ok, he's a WW too so Nord gunna be fun, and I'm glad to have Pact toons

I guess if you really care about the toon you ignore min max.
If you don't you switch.

Done

Tigerseye

Beardimus wrote: »

I understand peoples frustrations. For me its simple, i have one main, and he's staying put.

I have a bosmer thief Alt tho rolled for fun for TG. And this would have annoyed me, but we get the free changes. So its ok, he's a WW too so Nord gunna be fun, and I'm glad to have Pact toons

I guess if you really care about the toon you ignore min max.
If you don't you switch.

Done

No, not "done", at all.

Shouldn't be forced to choose between your character's continuing existence and being effective in PVE.

Especially if you originally made your char to be a certain thing, based on the original racials and now find it doesn't work for that anymore (or, for anything else, apart from maybe PVP...).

Instead of playing around like this, in the supposed name of "racial balance" and failing miserably, they should have just scrapped set racials, altogether and let people pick and choose.

That's if they really cared about racial balance, of course.