Wood Elf/ Bosmer losing stealth passive, An open letter.

Tasear

What about adding 10% movement speed in stealth instead of penetration?

BlueRaven

Tasear wrote: »

What about adding 10% movement speed in stealth instead of penetration?

While I think a stealth detection reduction bonus is stronger, I think a stealth speed buff would have been fine. At least a stealth speed buff seems to be a lot more lore friendly then stealth detection to me.

As for the actual numbers I can let the community decide.

A_Silverius

Tasear wrote: »

What about adding 10% movement speed in stealth instead of penetration?

Only if it stacks with Night's Silence Set

But I'd rather have stealth detect reduction.

Cundu_Ertur

Hand_Bacon wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

[
Good lord, more of this "avoidance is the same as stealth" nonsense. Again: stealth is not avoidance, avoidance is not stealth. Stealth is being in a place without being noticed. Avoidance is not being in that place at all.
Detection without stealth = guard.
Detection with stealth = scout.
Stealth with or without detection = thief.

Really? What have I been talking about this whole time? I'm talking about the concept of stealth, not a some 1 and 0's cops and robbers stealthed or not game mechanic that you think supersedes the concept. Good lord I'll spell it out again.

Avoidance and detection WITHIN the concept of stealth.
Avoidance = avoiding detection
Detection = detecting those avoiding detection

Begging the question. Having to use a word that you're trying to define in the definition is a red flag for that.

I can't believe that I'm having to argue that counter-stealth is not stealth. Honestly. So if counter-stealth IS stealth, then what actually counters stealth?

Hand_Bacon

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Begging the question. Having to use a word that you're trying to define in the definition is a red flag for that.

Once again you're not comprehending the simplest of things. I'm not giving definitions, I'm setting scope of concept and what I was referring to. I think at this point you're either being obstinate for the sake of being obstinate or you're attempting to cover for an insecurity. You can just ignore my posts and go on blissfully ignorant of what I'm discussing and what others have stated, even though you have nodded towards them in affirmation of understanding.

Aela_Dragonrider

If I understand correctly, @Hand_Bacon, you've been saying that Avoidance and Detection are two sides of the same coin, that coin being Stealth. One allows you not be seen, the other allows you to see the people who don't want to be seen. Hence, if you have Stealth Detection, you are still participating in Stealth; just in a different way. Is that correct?

The thing is, we don't want Detection. We want Avoidance.
And I must agree with @Cundu_Ertur. Counter-Stealth /= Stealth in-game. Being able to see people in stealth is not the same as not being seen yourself.

We don't NEED to detect 'those avoiding detection'. We want to be the ones avoiding detection.

And as plenty of people have pointed out, Stealth Detection on its own, with nothing else added on, is next to useless.

Ratzkifal wrote: »

[*] Stealth detect has no benefits in PvE,

making this an exclusively PvP oriented passive component, which is counter to the original goals (goal number 2 - universal applicability) of the racial balance change. Since stealth detection is only beneficial in PvP environments it also does not line up with the original reasoning given behind the removal of stealth - that only a player that stealths (in this case, detects other players) can benefit from this (part of the) passive. As of now, PvE players only benefit from 10% speed after dodging at the cost of three skill points and ~3.6k stamina cost, as the penetration will either be wasted due to the cap or result in a DPS loss from the lack of uptime. Returning the reduced sneak radius or a similar passive component that improves sneaking helps players across the board as everyone can choose to take advantage of that in the Overworld as well as Dungeons and PvP by sneaking past enemies or sneaking into an advantageous position to strike.
Furthermore the additional stealth detect in PvP is not in line with existing forms of detection as it reveals cloaked enemies without an indicator. It also gives away the existence of a hidden Bosmer to other sneaking enemies as it also increases the "danger" radius with the half opened eye indicator in which enemies can tell they are about to be revealed before the sneaking Bosmer is even made aware of the existence of their sneaking enemy. These intransparent and counterintuitive issues would need to be addressed and resolved if the passive was kept in its current form, which is why we would be willing to give up this component of the passive to regain improved sneaking.

Hand_Bacon

@Aela_Dragonrider
I understand that and have stated on many occasions that I wouldn't mind it being given back. I'm actually good either way, whether it comes back or not. If it doesn't I'd like to see detection radius at least increased to the same as magelight and any bugs with it ironed out.

However, when you say "we" I imagine that you are referring to just those players who are here and who have stated that they want it back. When you say, "we dont NEED" I have to assume that as some of us who pvp (my personal sample size is limited) don't find it useless, just not where it should be. I only bring this up as we have no idea what the consensus is or anyway to accurately extrapolate it. I appreciate the well=meaning efforts of those like @Ratzkifal in attempting what they are doing.

Aela_Dragonrider

Hand_Bacon wrote: »

However, when you say "we" I imagine that you are referring to just those players who are here and who have stated that they want it back. When you say, "we dont NEED" I have to assume that as some of us who pvp (my personal sample size is limited) don't find it useless, just not where it should be. I only bring this up as we have no idea what the consensus is or anyway to accurately extrapolate it. I appreciate the well=meaning efforts of those like @Ratzkifal in attempting what they are doing.

That is correct. I do not claim to be speaking for all Bosmer players.

A_Silverius

I imagine anyone with any appreciation for Bosmer lore or PvE players would prefer to get their reduced stealth detection back though as its useful for both PvE and PvP whereas stealth detection has no use in PvE and only marginally useful in PvP. Racial Passives should help in both areas, and the most lore friendly - game balanced thing to do is to give us back our reduced stealth radius.

Koronach

If it comes down to lore I doubt they will do anything about it. They seem to throw lore to the side when making changes, I mean.

Koronach wrote: »

I’m guessing many of you will be interested to know more about the racial balance changes. While we aren’t ready to share specific details yet, here’s a peek at the goals driving the team’s effort:

When selecting a race, players should have multiple effective options for any given gameplay role. The combat power provided by each race should be more equalized. Players should feel a stronger sense of power progression through racial passives as they level up. The unique feeling and flavor each race provides should be retained and enhanced where possible, and remain faithful to established lore.

That's all for now. Feedback, as always, is welcome.

Sorry none of those are even close to true for Argonians. Also how is removing Argonian poison resistance staying faithful to established lore?



It's all over the actual in game lore from quest NPC's. Let's see we have the Bleakrock spider quest, Eastmarch Daril quest, Green-Venom-Tongue Shadowscale stating he got his name because he drank so much poison, his tongue is permanently stained green, Jee-Lar mentioning it in that poison sniffer lizard quest, and prob others I'm forgetting.
@ZOS_RobGarrett @ZOS_Gilliam care to elaborate on this epic lore fail?

That's about as lore breaking as you can get, saying a race is resistant to something in game and removing it from them.

Ratzkifal

Tasear wrote: »

What about adding 10% movement speed in stealth instead of penetration?

@Tasear I am not really good at coming up with balanced numbers so I don't know if 10% would already be broken or not. That being said, as long as the 10% stacks it would be really neat and in my opinion enough to satisfy my lore consistency needs while also allowing diversity among the sneak races.
Alternative ideas for sneak passives I had are lowering the time it takes to become "hidden", lowering the detection radius while standing still (obviously not great as long as Khajiit have -3m all the time), reduced sneak cost and a few more ideas that are a bit too complext to be made as a minor passive or have not enough uses right now like dodgeroll from sneak not breaking stealth or swimming being treated like sneak (intended for Argonians but unfortunately there would be little use for this right now).
Another perk that would fit Legerdemain better than any particular race would be a burst of movement speed after being detected, similarly to how Padomaic Sprint from the DB works, except on being detected rather than using the blade of Woe.

Tasear

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Tasear wrote: »

What about adding 10% movement speed in stealth instead of penetration?

@Tasear I am not really good at coming up with balanced numbers so I don't know if 10% would already be broken or not. That being said, as long as the 10% stacks it would be really neat and in my opinion enough to satisfy my lore consistency needs while also allowing diversity among the sneak races.
Alternative ideas for sneak passives I had are lowering the time it takes to become "hidden", lowering the detection radius while standing still (obviously not great as long as Khajiit have -3m all the time), reduced sneak cost and a few more ideas that are a bit too complext to be made as a minor passive or have not enough uses right now like dodgeroll from sneak not breaking stealth or swimming being treated like sneak (intended for Argonians but unfortunately there would be little use for this right now).
Another perk that would fit Legerdemain better than any particular race would be a burst of movement speed after being detected, similarly to how Padomaic Sprint from the DB works, except on being detected rather than using the blade of Woe.

I think adding stealth speed will accomplish zos goals of making it different from khajitt and wouldn't affect balance but still follow lore. It also makes more sense to hunter to be able to sneak better ... then penetration better after a roll dodge. Still orc is overload with speed and reduce cost so why not just add this on there.

P.S Bosmers never get up.

Tasear

Koronach wrote: »

If it comes down to lore I doubt they will do anything about it. They seem to throw lore to the side when making changes, I mean.

Koronach wrote: »

I’m guessing many of you will be interested to know more about the racial balance changes. While we aren’t ready to share specific details yet, here’s a peek at the goals driving the team’s effort:

When selecting a race, players should have multiple effective options for any given gameplay role. The combat power provided by each race should be more equalized. Players should feel a stronger sense of power progression through racial passives as they level up. The unique feeling and flavor each race provides should be retained and enhanced where possible, and remain faithful to established lore.

That's all for now. Feedback, as always, is welcome.

Sorry none of those are even close to true for Argonians. Also how is removing Argonian poison resistance staying faithful to established lore?



It's all over the actual in game lore from quest NPC's. Let's see we have the Bleakrock spider quest, Eastmarch Daril quest, Green-Venom-Tongue Shadowscale stating he got his name because he drank so much poison, his tongue is permanently stained green, Jee-Lar mentioning it in that poison sniffer lizard quest, and prob others I'm forgetting.
@ZOS_RobGarrett @ZOS_Gilliam care to elaborate on this epic lore fail?

That's about as lore breaking as you can get, saying a race is resistant to something in game and removing it from them.

Now lets just find something in lore for bosmer sheath in game.

Ratzkifal

Koronach wrote: »

If it comes down to lore I doubt they will do anything about it. They seem to throw lore to the side when making changes, I mean.

Koronach wrote: »

I’m guessing many of you will be interested to know more about the racial balance changes. While we aren’t ready to share specific details yet, here’s a peek at the goals driving the team’s effort:

When selecting a race, players should have multiple effective options for any given gameplay role. The combat power provided by each race should be more equalized. Players should feel a stronger sense of power progression through racial passives as they level up. The unique feeling and flavor each race provides should be retained and enhanced where possible, and remain faithful to established lore.

That's all for now. Feedback, as always, is welcome.

Sorry none of those are even close to true for Argonians. Also how is removing Argonian poison resistance staying faithful to established lore?



It's all over the actual in game lore from quest NPC's. Let's see we have the Bleakrock spider quest, Eastmarch Daril quest, Green-Venom-Tongue Shadowscale stating he got his name because he drank so much poison, his tongue is permanently stained green, Jee-Lar mentioning it in that poison sniffer lizard quest, and prob others I'm forgetting.
@ZOS_RobGarrett @ZOS_Gilliam care to elaborate on this epic lore fail?

That's about as lore breaking as you can get, saying a race is resistant to something in game and removing it from them.

@Koronach Personally that is an issue I can overlook although I would obviously prefer it if Bosmer and Argonians were both resistant to both, as it should be. Doesn't sound very bad from a balance perspective either as Fire and spellresistance are much more universally applicable as either one. Poison is a bit more common than disease, but not nearly as common as fire or magicka I feel.

Ratzkifal

Tasear wrote: »

Koronach wrote: »

If it comes down to lore I doubt they will do anything about it. They seem to throw lore to the side when making changes, I mean.

Koronach wrote: »

I’m guessing many of you will be interested to know more about the racial balance changes. While we aren’t ready to share specific details yet, here’s a peek at the goals driving the team’s effort:

When selecting a race, players should have multiple effective options for any given gameplay role. The combat power provided by each race should be more equalized. Players should feel a stronger sense of power progression through racial passives as they level up. The unique feeling and flavor each race provides should be retained and enhanced where possible, and remain faithful to established lore.

That's all for now. Feedback, as always, is welcome.

Sorry none of those are even close to true for Argonians. Also how is removing Argonian poison resistance staying faithful to established lore?



It's all over the actual in game lore from quest NPC's. Let's see we have the Bleakrock spider quest, Eastmarch Daril quest, Green-Venom-Tongue Shadowscale stating he got his name because he drank so much poison, his tongue is permanently stained green, Jee-Lar mentioning it in that poison sniffer lizard quest, and prob others I'm forgetting.
@ZOS_RobGarrett @ZOS_Gilliam care to elaborate on this epic lore fail?

That's about as lore breaking as you can get, saying a race is resistant to something in game and removing it from them.

Now lets just find something in lore for bosmer sheath in game.

@Tasear If you meant to say stealth... well we have a lot gathered already

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Tasear

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Tasear wrote: »

Koronach wrote: »

If it comes down to lore I doubt they will do anything about it. They seem to throw lore to the side when making changes, I mean.

Koronach wrote: »

I’m guessing many of you will be interested to know more about the racial balance changes. While we aren’t ready to share specific details yet, here’s a peek at the goals driving the team’s effort:

When selecting a race, players should have multiple effective options for any given gameplay role. The combat power provided by each race should be more equalized. Players should feel a stronger sense of power progression through racial passives as they level up. The unique feeling and flavor each race provides should be retained and enhanced where possible, and remain faithful to established lore.

That's all for now. Feedback, as always, is welcome.

Sorry none of those are even close to true for Argonians. Also how is removing Argonian poison resistance staying faithful to established lore?



It's all over the actual in game lore from quest NPC's. Let's see we have the Bleakrock spider quest, Eastmarch Daril quest, Green-Venom-Tongue Shadowscale stating he got his name because he drank so much poison, his tongue is permanently stained green, Jee-Lar mentioning it in that poison sniffer lizard quest, and prob others I'm forgetting.
@ZOS_RobGarrett @ZOS_Gilliam care to elaborate on this epic lore fail?

That's about as lore breaking as you can get, saying a race is resistant to something in game and removing it from them.

Now lets just find something in lore for bosmer sheath in game.

@Tasear If you meant to say stealth... well we have a lot gathered already

Ratzkifal wrote: »

😅 Yeah bit out it and under the weather... though not to say would not of made the typo nevertheless.

Tigerseye

So, I play a Bosmer Warden and I haven't really noticed any difference when I steal.

I can't speak for stealth (or stealth detection) in PVP, but in PVE the changes don't really seem to have made a noticable difference.

A_Silverius

Noticeable for me though, its much harder to sneak pass npcs now and especially when questing. It has ruined my sneak thief bosmer I had created, its also the only character I play on so.... I'm kinda screwed I guess

Jaraal

Aela_Dragonrider wrote: »

We don't NEED to detect 'those avoiding detection'. We want to be the ones avoiding detection.

Exactly. Doesn't matter if detection is considered part of stealth or not. What matters is that detection has absolutely no use for the majority of players. And is virtually useless in PvP, as the detectees already see you when your detection actually kicks in. So:

Stealth = useful for everyone
Stealth detection = useless for PvE, crippled for PvP.


It's not rocket surgery!

Jaraal

A_Silverius wrote: »

Noticeable for me though, its much harder to sneak pass npcs now and especially when questing. It has ruined my sneak thief bosmer I had created, its also the only character I play on so.... I'm kinda screwed I guess

Agreed, my Bosmer main gets caught way more often and collects bounty too fast, so his thieving career is over. But my Khajiits are getting caught less.... somehow their stealth got buffed without being announced.

I'm quite sure Khajiits were made OP with this update ahead of the upcoming Khajiit chapter for a reason. And that's to get more people interested in the race, and encouraging them to buy the next expansion. So, even more insulting that Bosmers were sold out for coin.

max_only

Marcus_Thracius wrote: »

Vote with your wallet - otherwise they ignore you

I think it was Rich Lambert who said “You know you don’t have to be here” in response to criticism. Somehow I think they’d rather feel “right” than acquiesce to “customers”. I found the quote. https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/3160562/#Comment_3160562

Besides they are counting on bringing in a bunch of Khajiit players to make up for anything lost. Cats appeal to the internet meme community (3rd person speech is basically Can Haz Cheezeburger), to people who don’t care about Elder Scrolls but like cats, to people who identify as furry/anthro, etc. They’re planning on raking it in with the flash in the pan gaming community. Those are also the people who are most likely to splurge on cosmetics to make their kitten unique.

Jannisaries

I think people are giving the devs too much credit. It seems to me that they made some sloppy changes and then stretched "lore" to the breaking point to justify it. Perhaps if the previous Loremaster , Lawrence Schick, were still on board he would have been able to corral them and prevent this silliness.

I agree with @max_only in that they would "rather feel “right” than acquiesce to “customers”.

For me there is a silver lining to this. I had pre-ordered the previous two chapters but now I don't have to worry about finding the cash for this one. There is too much risk in buying something that will, in all likelihood, include even more lore breaking changes. My eso+ sub runs until mid-April and I have until then to decide if I just chuck it all together.

KMarble

Tasear wrote: »

Now lets just find something in lore for bosmer sheath in game.

I posted some examples yesterday:

KMarble wrote: »

You don't even have to go outside ESO to see it mentioned. Tthere are at least 3 quests in this game that were created around the concept of the right of theft.
- The first one is given to us by a guy who's hanging around Elden Root near the miggens - he stole a bow, invoked the right of theft, but his partner in crime took the bow and fled. You need to bring the bow back.
- the second is in - I think - Greenshade. You're hired by a loan shark to get some money back from a bosmer. It turns out the thief who took the money is asking for something unexpected when they invoke the right of theft,
- then there is one that is tied up to the main questline for AD, and it's called "Right of Theft".

The case could be made that two of the three are side quests and can be ignored, but the third example is part of the main quest for AD. At some point the developers thought that was a defining characteristic of wood elves and used it as the reason for those quests to exist. Akin to using the lore around the Hist on quests related to Argonians.

ETA: if memory serves, in every single one of the quests I mentioned above, there is a dialogue tree that allows the player to know more about the right of theft.

BlueRaven

KMarble wrote: »

Tasear wrote: »

Now lets just find something in lore for bosmer sheath in game.

I posted some examples yesterday:

KMarble wrote: »

You don't even have to go outside ESO to see it mentioned. Tthere are at least 3 quests in this game that were created around the concept of the right of theft.
- The first one is given to us by a guy who's hanging around Elden Root near the miggens - he stole a bow, invoked the right of theft, but his partner in crime took the bow and fled. You need to bring the bow back.
- the second is in - I think - Greenshade. You're hired by a loan shark to get some money back from a bosmer. It turns out the thief who took the money is asking for something unexpected when they invoke the right of theft,
- then there is one that is tied up to the main questline for AD, and it's called "Right of Theft".

The case could be made that two of the three are side quests and can be ignored, but the third example is part of the main quest for AD. At some point the developers thought that was a defining characteristic of wood elves and used it as the reason for those quests to exist. Akin to using the lore around the Hist on quests related to Argonians.

ETA: if memory serves, in every single one of the quests I mentioned above, there is a dialogue tree that allows the player to know more about the right of theft.

Wasn’t there also another one in Greenshade that involved a Bosmer at a bank?

He wanted to get the Altmer to leave so he stole things from one house and put them in another to make them fight amongst each other?

KMarble

BlueRaven wrote: »

Wasn’t there also another one in Greenshade that involved a Bosmer at a bank?

He wanted to get the Altmer to leave so he stole things from one house and put them in another to make them fight amongst each other?

You're right. But I don't think that one involved the right of theft.

BlueRaven

KMarble wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

Wasn’t there also another one in Greenshade that involved a Bosmer at a bank?

He wanted to get the Altmer to leave so he stole things from one house and put them in another to make them fight amongst each other?

You're right. But I don't think that one involved the right of theft.

That’s true. I was just thinking it was a Bosmer and it involved theft.

max_only

Tasear wrote: »

What about adding 10% movement speed in stealth instead of penetration?

There’s a hard cap on speed though. Also, personally, I find if my character moves too much when I gently tap a movement key, I actually get caught more often. Sometimes I even turn on walk to get my positioning juuuuuuust right.

I wouldn’t say no though. It’s just not the same flavor.

Jaraal

Also curious that with the Thieves Guild / Dark Brotherhood anniversary event near, that they are gimping Bosmers just in time for earning event tickets and loot boxes from completing Sacraments and Heists. People who's only good thieves are wood elves will be at a serious disadvantage, and ZOS will be forcing players to scramble at the last minute to level up Legerdeman, TG, and DB skills on their new Khajiit thieves.

Hardly seems fair to dump the nerf on us at such an inopportune time. Sometimes it seems as if they plan these things to cause the most angst possible. Just like when they released THIS patch ahead of the Undaunted event, where they stated that we may have trouble queuing successfully.... and you saw what a debacle that turned into.

I just don't understand why they do some of these things, and it's compounded by the wall of silence that follows. Maybe if they actually talked to us about these issues instead of ignoring them, people wouldn't be so upset.

Sylvermynx

Jaraal wrote: »

Also curious that with the Thieves Guild / Dark Brotherhood anniversary event near, that they are gimping Bosmers just in time for earning event tickets and loot boxes from completing Sacraments and Heists. People who's only good thieves are wood elves will be at a serious disadvantage, and ZOS will be forcing players to scramble at the last minute to level up Legerdeman, TG, and DB skills on their new Khajiit thieves.

Hardly seems fair to dump the nerf on us at such an inopportune time. Sometimes it seems as if they plan these things to cause the most angst possible. Just like when they released THIS patch ahead of the Undaunted event, where they stated that we may have trouble queuing successfully.... and you saw what a debacle that turned into.

I just don't understand why they do some of these things, and it's compounded by the wall of silence that follows. Maybe if they actually talked to us about these issues instead of ignoring them, people wouldn't be so upset.

Well..... conspiracy theory incoming (I'm the queen of them really.... just ask anyone who knows me).

Perhaps there's an actual deep meaning to gimping Bosmer just now. As in - they have some reason to NOT want people to get all the tickets they can in TG and DB, for whatever reason?

Now, I don't (as I've said previously) play my Bosmers as sneak thieves. And if I don't get tickets from TG and DB events, I don't really care (because I won't - I don't play those DLC). But a LOT of people will care, won't they? Pretty sure that's a given. So.... the thought that comes to my mind is that the devs have done this whole stupid "*** on the lore" thing because they don't want TG and DB to give so many tickets that the next event or so won't be bothered with.

As in.... the BIG KAHUNA event - the five week anniversary special....

Yep. Pretty sure I'm blowing smoke.... but still....

Arato

Tasear wrote: »

What about adding 10% movement speed in stealth instead of penetration?

Useless, set bonuses from gear, vampirism passives, and a nightblade skill all outstrip that, meanwhile the racial stealth bonus is stronger than any set bonus, to give you a comparison for power.

Now if you made the bonus +30% speed in stealth, it'd be slightly faster than default move speed so slightly better than night's silence or other means of ignoring stealth's movement speed penalty, that would be comparable to -3 detect radius from the racial vs -2 detect radius from sets. I'd still rather have -3 stealth detect radius, but at least then it'd be somewhat comparable in power. Khajiit would still hide better, Bosmer would just be the fastest race in stealth.