Wood Elf/ Bosmer losing stealth passive, An open letter.

KMarble

Hand_Bacon wrote: »

@Ratzkifal Nice work on the proposal!
I was looking at those screenshots of Bosmer descriptions and something occurred to me. Their prowess as scouts is mentioned as often as thieving. Scouting has as much to do with detecting hidden enemy assets as those in plain sight.

Scouting, in game, is done by going to point X, watching an animation and coming back to the board to get your reward. There is absolutely no mechanics involved, and we don't actually get to see anything worth the trip when we get to the objective.

I know because that was what I did to get the tickets on the mid-year-in-the-beginning-of-the-year festival. You don't even get transmute crystals for it.

Hand_Bacon wrote: »

Also, I think when people think of thieving they automatically go to the in-game mechanic of being "hidden". Pickpockets for all practical purposes don't become "invisible" rather they hide in plain sight and use their slight of hand and other tricks to achieve their purpose. Thieving is abstracted for game purposes.

I would like the buggy nature of their stealth detect fixed (i haven't experienced the bug) and the radius increased to at least that of magelight if not more.

As someone who IRL is as short as a short wood elf, let me tell you this. I can go through a crowd without being noticed all.the.time. I can observe other people without being "seen" all.the.time.

Crouching was the way the devs chose to display this ease (for lack of a better word) that short people have to go undetected, as you said. BUT! It is in the nature of short real life people to have an easier time going undetected, and I suspect it's the reason they made wood elves short in the first place.

Crouching in game does NOT make the char invisible, btw.

Ratzkifal

@BlueRaven Some of your thoughts are very interesting on what is actually going on, though I am more pessimistic on the natural outcome of things.

My guess is that ZOS is working on a system that expands on the current systems and allows all classes and races to become stealthy.

The most likely thing to happen is that racials will stack with the new system - whatever it may be. They might think that Bosmer players only want the 3m reduction buff no matter where its from and think to themselves "oh they will love this new set that will make them able to sneak and do trials without switching sets" and while that would be indeed great on one end, I think ZOS would not have chosen to remove Bosmer sneak racials if they were considering that it is important for Bosmer to have an inherent sneaking advantage.
I think it will end up as a suboptimal solution in my opinion, because it defies the point of having racials in the first place. Racial passives are meant to express something about the player character's race. From the way they have handled it I just can't rationalize ZOS taking away Bosmer stealth carelessly while at the same time being so very aware of the meaning this carries, as they would give it back later anyway through expanding racials. Them actually planning to expand the racials to include stealth and interpreting their statements as such would indeed calm my frustration about this, but even then it does not work neatly. Judging by "opening up other races" it sounds like they want to change sneak all around and not just for sneaking races. If that is the case then it still leaves the question why they didn't do it now if it would be focused on the races anyway. There are too many contradictories at work here if I assume that they will just make everything to my liking in the end.

And that is why I think ZOS was just acting carelessly and just looking at numbers a bit too much instead of lore books during their rebalance. It makes more sense, takes less assumptions, contains no malice, no evil scheme, but carelessness and miscalculation of how important a "minor flavor passive" could be. Their bigger plan might be great and all but it almost certainly won't address the issue of disregarding lore in the racial passives. And if it does, then their communication is bad for sending so many mixed signals and not talking to us.

BlueRaven

@Ratzkifal What you said is probably true, I am just hoping it isn't. I really hope there actually is a grand overall plan for these bewildering changes.

The big tripping point for me is the kahjit racial and how this fits with any future plans (if they actually exist). And yes there is a lot of contradictory statements floating around about this.

I am hoping that the trip to Pax East will clear some of this up which brings me back to my post I said earlier today;

"1) Are they REALLY going to put in system for stealth?
2) When will it happen?
3) Will Kahjits and imperials always have a stealth advantage?"

I am hoping I can finally get some answers.

Ratzkifal

I collected the material we wanted to include for now before we can start writing on the lore argument. This is still WIP. I also added spoilers to make the post more easily viewed and reduce the wall of text.

• We want more diverse race choices for characters that are focused on justice interactions. Having Khajiit be the only one with a sneaking advantage is very limiting.
• Stealth detect has no benefits in PvE,
  making this an exclusively PvP oriented passive component, which is counter to the original goals (goal number 2 - universal applicability) of the racial balance change. Since stealth detection is only beneficial in PvP environments it also does not line up with the original reasoning given behind the removal of stealth - that only a player that stealths (in this case, detects other players) can benefit from this (part of the) passive. As of now, PvE players only benefit from 10% speed after dodging at the cost of three skill points and ~3.6k stamina cost, as the penetration will either be wasted due to the cap or result in a DPS loss from the lack of uptime. Returning the reduced sneak radius or a similar passive component that improves sneaking helps players across the board as everyone can choose to take advantage of that in the Overworld as well as Dungeons and PvP by sneaking past enemies or sneaking into an advantageous position to strike.
  Furthermore the additional stealth detect in PvP is not in line with existing forms of detection as it reveals cloaked enemies without an indicator. It also gives away the existence of a hidden Bosmer to other sneaking enemies as it also increases the "danger" radius with the half opened eye indicator in which enemies can tell they are about to be revealed before the sneaking Bosmer is even made aware of the existence of their sneaking enemy. These intransparent and counterintuitive issues would need to be addressed and resolved if the passive was kept in its current form, which is why we would be willing to give up this component of the passive to regain improved sneaking.
• Doesn't fit lore
  Bosmer have been described as great sneak thieves in every Elder Scrolls game starting with Arena.
  Elder Scrolls 1 Arena
  
  Elder Scrolls 2 Daggerfall
  
  Elder Scrolls 3 Morrowind
  
  Elder Scrolls 4 Oblivion
  
  Elder Scrolls 5 Skyrim
  
  Elder Scrolls Online
  

  BlueViolet wrote: »

  
  War Customs of the Tribal Bosmer
  
  Valenwood: A Study
  

  
  
  
  

BlueRaven

@Ratzkifal Thats pretty great! Love it!

Eiron77

@Ratzkifal glad you're continuing to improve it. Looks great and definitely much easier to read with the spoilers.

Cundu_Ertur

Hand_Bacon wrote: »

Scouting has as much to do with detecting hidden enemy assets as those in plain sight. Also, I think when people think of thieving they automatically go to the in-game mechanic of being "hidden". Pickpockets for all practical purposes don't become "invisible" rather they hide in plain sight and use their slight of hand and other tricks to achieve their purpose. Thieving is abstracted for game purposes.

Good lord, more of this "avoidance is the same as stealth" nonsense. Again: stealth is not avoidance, avoidance is not stealth. Stealth is being in a place without being noticed. Avoidance is not being in that place at all.

Your observation about detecting things being a good thing for scouting is, however, true; but it is not requisite. More important is that a scout needs to be in the place to be able to see things without being seen themselves.

Detection without stealth = guard.
Detection with stealth = scout.
Stealth with or without detection = thief.

Cundu_Ertur

Jaraal wrote: »

Hand_Bacon wrote: »

Scouting has as much to do with detecting hidden enemy assets as those in plain sight.

Except there are exactly zero hidden enemy assets in ESO for the vast majority of Bosmer players.

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

I think it would stack, so they'd pay more to get more. That's why my proposal has always included a slight reduction in the Khajiit racial boost for stealth.

While I love my Bosmer main, I would be totally against this as I have 4 max Leger/TG/DB Khajiit thieves, and I don't wish to see their livelihood and relevance nerfed, either.

I'm guessing you missed it, or it was a while ago. My proposal was that Khajiit would get 2m from their racial, Bosmer 1m from their racial, and all races could get 2m from legerdemain. Khajiit would end up with 4m, Bosmer 3m, everyone else the basic 2m. Your cats would get a 1m from my proposal.

Cundu_Ertur

BlueRaven wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

wedgebert wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

Even if the fix comes this summer, I think it’s unfair and just weird for bosmers to have a stealth boost, have it taken away, and then given back. The system should be in the game now.
Or if this is phase one of a long term overhaul then just tell us because quite frankly I am getting tired and frustrated just talking to this brick wall of silence.

From how I've understood it, the *fix* wouldn't give Bosmer their natural stealth back, rather it'd be a separate skill line that anyone could take to boost stealth.

So even if it goes though, we'd still be the Mall Cop race in PVP and have no PVE benefit at all.

I know that. But if it’s under the Bosmer skill line or a “sneak” skill line has little difference to me. My main concern is (under such a system) will kahjits and imperials ALWAYS have an advantage? In other words, do they stack?

Remember kahjits and imperials are not getting that stealth bonus racial for “free”. They have to put points into it.

That’s why I don’t see it being put under a ledgerman skill line. If I played a kahjit, I may end up “paying” for the stealth bonus twice, which strikes me as unfair.

I think it would stack, so they'd pay more to get more. That's why my proposal has always included a slight reduction in the Khajiit racial boost for stealth.

(Ok buckle up, this may be a long post.)

I am finally at a computer, as opposed to writing my previous posts today through my phone, so hopefully i can explain myself a bit better.

Here are the main issues I am seeing right now in regards to stealth;

1) Right now some races have bonuses to stealth and others that don't. If they implement a new "sneak" tree, or modify an existing tree. I don't foresee them suddenly changing the racials of those with a stealth bonus at the onset of a new "sneak" category. (Maybe I am being optimistic, but I would like to think they made these racials with the future "stealth" changes already in mind.)

2) The kahjits bonus to stealth;

"Feline Ambush: Increases your Critical Hit Damage and Healing by 10%. Reduces your detection radius in Stealth by 3m."

And the imperials bonus;

"When you deal Direct Damage, you restore 333 Health, Magicka, and Stamina. This effect has a 5 second cooldown. It also will reduce the cost of all abilities by 3%."

Both cost skill point to activate. (This is important later.)

3) I think there is an upper limit to what they want these abilities to stack to. We all saw that video with the 5m stealth bonus to Kahjits on the PTS. I don't think they want a natural bonus to get that far in game.

4) The infamous quote;

"Note: Reps specifically asked about the community’s concern that bosmers are trading stealth for different buffs. We were told that ZOS saw these concerns and would work on creating more options/systems for stealth gameplay outside of race. With these additions, stealth gameplay will open up to more players, and also allow bosmers to have the nice combat buff will still having avenues to be as stealthy as before."

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/456997/class-reps-update-meeting-notes-jan-30-2019/p1

The talk of "options" and "systems" implies a more profound change to stealth (and maybe other things), but this account is basically written second hand. So how much weight does this have? Are new skill lines what they meant? Or are they just going to add an armor set?

•••

If the racials DO stack with any new future skills, well then it's game over. Bosmers will ALWAYS lag behind imperials and Kahjits in stealth. And this whole racial change is truly awful, particularly from a lore perspective.

•••

But let me be optimistic and let's pretend for a moment that the stealth racial bonuses do NOT stack with other skills.

A ) So, if it were to go into a modification of the ledgerman skill line to add a stealth bonus;

A1) They could add a new sneak line on it's own with three ranks with the caveat that it does NOT stack with any racials.
This way Kahjits don't need to put points into it, as they may have already put points into their own racial. While it may be a tad confusing, at least everyone can catch up. (However, they could have done that already in this patch.)

A2) They could graft sneak onto "Improved hiding" (for example) in the ledgeman skill line. (Also something they could have done this patch.) But a khajit player looking for the reduced stamina cost to stealth would be also paying for the dead weight of the improved stealth which does not seem right.

•••

B ) Expanded racials.

A radical idea, but what if they were to expand the amount of racials every race gets. These racials can be more universal, adding magcika to stamina races, etc. Suddenly bosmers (and nords and orcs) have options for stealth. Bretons and Altmer have stamina options, etc.

I HIGHLY doubt this will happen but I can't 100% rule it out. And AGAIN this should have been implemented this patch. The reason I bring this up as one of the stated goals was to "open up" the races for additional roles, but that did not come across very well in this patch. So maybe there is something more coming down the pike.

C ) They actually implement a new "sneak" skill tree that is coming in Elsweyr. This may be under a NDA at the moment, which is why they are not talking about it, but this option is strengthen by the "options" and "systems" cryptic remarks. It has been noted that Elsweyr is only implementing a new class, as opposed to previous chapters that added profound changes to the game (arenas in Morrowind as an example). Maybe adding a "sneak" tree is only one amongst many skill trees that they are adding and they just have not told us yet because "NDA".

•••

The whole thing is just overly complex and confusing. The removal of stealth from Bosmers appears to me to be a simple case of "Well, Kahjits have it, so lets do something different with Bosmers", and not actually driven by any actual gameplay NEED to make them different. Right now the reasoning appears to be that Bosmers don't have a stealth bonus is because Kahjits do. Which is both infuriating and strange.

To me right now, if this is truly a huge overall systems change and we are only seeing the first piece of it, how does a future stealth bonus "click in" to the puzzle piece of the current patch? Trying to "graft" a fix onto this is just not something I want to do. Before this whole thing, I would come on to the forums only to ask a quick question, or check some patch notes and move on. And not to be mean, I WANT to go back to that. I want this to just have a conclusion.

TBH I think you hit the nail on the head with "The removal of stealth from Bosmers appears to me to be a simple case of "Well, Kahjits have it, so lets do something different with Bosmers", and not actually driven by any actual gameplay NEED to make them different. Right now the reasoning appears to be that Bosmers don't have a stealth bonus is because Kahjits do. Which is both infuriating and strange."

The issue I have with what they seem to be planning is, as you also noted, Bosmer would forever lag behind Khajiit and Imperials. Which is crap. At least one of the devs has their panties in a bunch over Bosmer stealth for no good reason at all.

Eiron77

@BlueRaven
While I agree with the points you made, about the upcoming stealth changes and how they might equalize every race in stealth in the end... I don't know if that would be enough to bring me back. (I know you already know these points I make below, but bear with me).

My main issue is how ZOS appeared to be passive aggressive about the wood elf concerns of the Stealthy removal. The first response they made was earlier in the PTS and they actually stated they heard our concerns, but their proposed resolution--while a great idea and needed for a long time--glossed over the actual point of our concerns (which is pretty well summarized by @Ratzkifal ).

So we continued to voice our complaints throughout the rest of the PTS. They already showed they were listening to feedback, so my best assumption would be that they continued to know the mass dissent from their changes to Wood Elves. Our main concern was lore. So in the final change they made to Hunters Eye, they rewrote it's description to fit their new concept of the racial. It was underhanded, a stab in the back, and came off as passive-aggressive to me. That may not have been their intent, but the complete lack of any other response gives me no cause to believe otherwise.

I have so many other issues with Hunters Eye as I've laid out in many comments on these forums (mainly how lazy its design seemed to be as a cut/paste of Hasty Retreat... And as you and I have discussed together many times). And while I don't expect there to be an apology, I think at this time, the only thing that can bring me back is a return to a racial passive that benefits wood elves' ability to sneak, thats in line with their lore, and sets them apart in gameplay mechanics as natural sneak-thieves. It doesn't have to be the same as before.

The reason this would bring me back is, this whole issue is just a small thing and really not that important in life. But if a restaurant changes their recipe and I don't like the new taste, I'll stop eating there. However, if I later hear that they went back to the old recipe, I'll go return. If it tastes the way it used to, I'll be content as all I wanted was to enjoy the that familiar taste when I wanted. Doesn't matter if the restaurant was a bit stubborn about customer feedback... All I want is to enjoy that particular dish again. And the chef adding a great side dish isn't going to bring that satisfaction back.

I like my Bosmer sneak-thief. Being able to play GTA in a fantasy setting MMO is my ultimate pass time. But character concept is very important to me. And so my character must feel sneaker than most. It doesnt anymore. I am also a completionist and having 1 of 3 racials sitting there unused when it could be so much better, is upsetting to me. My character doesnt feel the same anymore and my preferred passtime no longer brings satisfaction. I don't think I can be satisfied until my Bosmer itself--no outside influence--feels sneaky again.

But we'll see what happens. I'll continue to watch news about this and see if the new stealth changes surprise me. But given their seeming nonchalant attitude in this whole ordeal, that side dish has a very high expectation to win me over.

Arato

Ratzkifal wrote: »

@BlueRaven Some of your thoughts are very interesting on what is actually going on, though I am more pessimistic on the natural outcome of things.

My guess is that ZOS is working on a system that expands on the current systems and allows all classes and races to become stealthy.

The most likely thing to happen is that racials will stack with the new system - whatever it may be. They might think that Bosmer players only want the 3m reduction buff no matter where its from and think to themselves "oh they will love this new set that will make them able to sneak and do trials without switching sets" and while that would be indeed great on one end, I think ZOS would not have chosen to remove Bosmer sneak racials if they were considering that it is important for Bosmer to have an inherent sneaking advantage.
I think it will end up as a suboptimal solution in my opinion, because it defies the point of having racials in the first place. Racial passives are meant to express something about the player character's race. From the way they have handled it I just can't rationalize ZOS taking away Bosmer stealth carelessly while at the same time being so very aware of the meaning this carries, as they would give it back later anyway through expanding racials. Them actually planning to expand the racials to include stealth and interpreting their statements as such would indeed calm my frustration about this, but even then it does not work neatly. Judging by "opening up other races" it sounds like they want to change sneak all around and not just for sneaking races. If that is the case then it still leaves the question why they didn't do it now if it would be focused on the races anyway. There are too many contradictories at work here if I assume that they will just make everything to my liking in the end.

And that is why I think ZOS was just acting carelessly and just looking at numbers a bit too much instead of lore books during their rebalance. It makes more sense, takes less assumptions, contains no malice, no evil scheme, but carelessness and miscalculation of how important a "minor flavor passive" could be. Their bigger plan might be great and all but it almost certainly won't address the issue of disregarding lore in the racial passives. And if it does, then their communication is bad for sending so many mixed signals and not talking to us.

Your train of thought doesn't check into the station because KHAJIIT KEPT THEIR RACIAL STEALTH BONUS.

There's no excuse, it's all developer bias. that's all it's ever been. Blatant Developer bias in favor of Khajiit.

BlueRaven

Eiron77 wrote: »

@BlueRaven
While I agree with the points you made, about the upcoming stealth changes and how they might equalize every race in stealth in the end... I don't know if that would be enough to bring me back. (I know you already know these points I make below, but bear with me).

My main issue is how ZOS appeared to be passive aggressive about the wood elf concerns of the Stealthy removal. The first response they made was earlier in the PTS and they actually stated they heard our concerns, but their proposed resolution--while a great idea and needed for a long time--glossed over the actual point of our concerns (which is pretty well summarized by @Ratzkifal ).

So we continued to voice our complaints throughout the rest of the PTS. They already showed they were listening to feedback, so my best assumption would be that they continued to know the mass dissent from their changes to Wood Elves. Our main concern was lore. So in the final change they made to Hunters Eye, they rewrote it's description to fit their new concept of the racial. It was underhanded, a stab in the back, and came off as passive-aggressive to me. That may not have been their intent, but the complete lack of any other response gives me no cause to believe otherwise.

I have so many other issues with Hunters Eye as I've laid out in many comments on these forums (mainly how lazy its design seemed to be as a cut/paste of Hasty Retreat... And as you and I have discussed together many times). And while I don't expect there to be an apology, I think at this time, the only thing that can bring me back is a return to a racial passive that benefits wood elves' ability to sneak, thats in line with their lore, and sets them apart in gameplay mechanics as natural sneak-thieves. It doesn't have to be the same as before.

The reason this would bring me back is, this whole issue is just a small thing and really not that important in life. But if a restaurant changes their recipe and I don't like the new taste, I'll stop eating there. However, if I later hear that they went back to the old recipe, I'll go return. If it tastes the way it used to, I'll be content as all I wanted was to enjoy the that familiar taste when I wanted. Doesn't matter if the restaurant was a bit stubborn about customer feedback... All I want is to enjoy that particular dish again. And the chef adding a great side dish isn't going to bring that satisfaction back.

I like my Bosmer sneak-thief. Being able to play GTA in a fantasy setting MMO is my ultimate pass time. But character concept is very important to me. And so my character must feel sneaker than most. It doesnt anymore. I am also a completionist and having 1 of 3 racials sitting there unused when it could be so much better, is upsetting to me. My character doesnt feel the same anymore and my preferred passtime no longer brings satisfaction. I don't think I can be satisfied until my Bosmer itself--no outside influence--feels sneaky again.

But we'll see what happens. I'll continue to watch news about this and see if the new stealth changes surprise me. But given their seeming nonchalant attitude in this whole ordeal, that side dish has a very high expectation to win me over.

Yeah I agree.

I am on the extended sub plan and that does not expire until mid April. So I am giving them that time to convince me to stay.

This would not be the first time I left a game after putting considerable time and money into it because I did not like the changes (WoW, Warhammer 40k), and this game will be no exception. Even with my love for the elder scrolls franchise.

The secondary issue is that I am an officer in two large guilds which I like very much. Leaving them would be difficult to me because of all the friends I made.

Normally I would not be making this trip to Boston as it is a distance for me to go. But for my own sanity at this point, I need closure on this subject.

I think it will be a bit strange for ZoS when I go. They will want to talk about necromancers and Elsweyr, then here comes this older guy who just wants to talk about stealth.

I get what you mean about bosmers not having their own passive for stealth, there is something that does not feel right about it. But then I think about the game mechanics in Skyrim and how the best any race can be in stealth is 100, and passives were just how close to 100 the character started. If they can do a similar system here in eso I would be content.

Yeah, it kind of sucks that the developers don’t want to recognize the stealth abilities of Bosmers. But in the end if it's putting three points into a wood elf tree, or putting three points into a stealth tree, I will take either at this point. Especially since one of the bosmers racials is to give the player three extra skill points.

I want to add one more thing to put on my "List of Grudges" (now I can't stop thinking about Warhammer) is how generic the Bosmer racials are. Going from the mechanics alone they don't really scream "Oh! These are the Bosmer racials!" to me. If this was 2014 and this game was in Alpha, I can easily see these racials as Redguard or Kahjit. Meanwhile the racials for Redguards and Kahjits currently seem closer to being on point.
I made a joke about it in another forum thread but I might as well repeat it here. "What Bosmers are currently really good at is being AD's third race. Without the Bosmers the race select screen would be unsymmetrical. "
The Bosmers racials appear to be just, well "there", almost as a filler, there is nothing about them that is super interesting.

Ratzkifal

Arato wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

@BlueRaven Some of your thoughts are very interesting on what is actually going on, though I am more pessimistic on the natural outcome of things.

My guess is that ZOS is working on a system that expands on the current systems and allows all classes and races to become stealthy.

The most likely thing to happen is that racials will stack with the new system - whatever it may be. They might think that Bosmer players only want the 3m reduction buff no matter where its from and think to themselves "oh they will love this new set that will make them able to sneak and do trials without switching sets" and while that would be indeed great on one end, I think ZOS would not have chosen to remove Bosmer sneak racials if they were considering that it is important for Bosmer to have an inherent sneaking advantage.
I think it will end up as a suboptimal solution in my opinion, because it defies the point of having racials in the first place. Racial passives are meant to express something about the player character's race. From the way they have handled it I just can't rationalize ZOS taking away Bosmer stealth carelessly while at the same time being so very aware of the meaning this carries, as they would give it back later anyway through expanding racials. Them actually planning to expand the racials to include stealth and interpreting their statements as such would indeed calm my frustration about this, but even then it does not work neatly. Judging by "opening up other races" it sounds like they want to change sneak all around and not just for sneaking races. If that is the case then it still leaves the question why they didn't do it now if it would be focused on the races anyway. There are too many contradictories at work here if I assume that they will just make everything to my liking in the end.

And that is why I think ZOS was just acting carelessly and just looking at numbers a bit too much instead of lore books during their rebalance. It makes more sense, takes less assumptions, contains no malice, no evil scheme, but carelessness and miscalculation of how important a "minor flavor passive" could be. Their bigger plan might be great and all but it almost certainly won't address the issue of disregarding lore in the racial passives. And if it does, then their communication is bad for sending so many mixed signals and not talking to us.

Your train of thought doesn't check into the station because KHAJIIT KEPT THEIR RACIAL STEALTH BONUS.

There's no excuse, it's all developer bias. that's all it's ever been. Blatant Developer bias in favor of Khajiit.

@Arato My train of thought does check into the station and I would appreciate if you kept being polite in this thread. My point is that we should not assume malice if we can explain it with incompetence. To the developers the detection is probably equivalent to sneak and they think they were doing us a favor. That makes way more sense than them favoring one race over another.

Eiron77

BlueRaven wrote: »

I made a joke about it in another forum thread but I might as well repeat it here. "What Bosmers are currently really good at is being AD's third race. Without the Bosmers the race select screen would be unsymmetrical. "
The Bosmers racials appear to be just, well "there", almost as a filler, there is nothing about them that is super interesting.

I remember reading that comment. It still feels bitterly true. It's what's most upsetting as my character has lost its character with one little change.

Well, put in a good word for us Bosmers at PAX-E. Hopefully you get your chance to stand up for us bosmer players. Travel safe!

Aela_Dragonrider

Awesome work, @Ratzkifal!

On a sorta side note, here's a few thoughts I had on Stealth Detection and Lore.

BlueRaven wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

correct me if I'm wrong, but scouting rarely involves detecting HIDDEN enemies but rather hiding while scouting enemy that can even be visible but cannot be judged or counted in plain sight? like... you kinda know that enemy is on the move, but you want to scout how fast they are moving, how big is the army, etc etc... so you HIDE, close by and track them. and they are not hidden, YOU are?

stealth detection for a scout doesn't make much sense to be TBH.

Exactly.

The new racial is just awful and really unsupported by lore.

A number of people have said that the Bosmer getting Stealth Detection is contrary to and unsupported by the lore.

To be honest, I don't think its strictly true to say that the stealth detection bonus is unsupported by lore. Good senses, the ability to detect things lurking in dense foliage, etc... and remain aware of your surroundings IS an extremely valuable skill for hunting. Which the Bosmer would definitely excel at. Good sense would also be a great boon to thieves.

However, this doesn't mean its more lore-firendly than stealth.

From a gameplay perspective: If the game had some way of better implementing said heightened sense, maybe it wouldn't be so bad. But as it stands, it is horribly, awfully represented by Stealth Detection and Stealth Detection only. Which, as everyone knows and has said before, is garbage when only get 3m extra and nothing else as per the Hunter's Eye Passive. And there are plenty of situations where being able to know where all the npcs and such is simply not helpful. Like trying to pick a lock in a crowded market. Once you go for the lock, you're not watching that guard walking his beat. You're trying to loot this strongbox before he walks by again and more stealth might just mean another second or two if you misjudged his timing.

From a lore perspective: Stealth Detection is kinda lore-friendly-ish. But, as has been pointed out by so many others here, it is Stealth was and is one of the top traits presented as being integral to the Bosmer. Awesome senses? That is more to be inferred from the lore.

So, heightened sense in Bosmer (aka. Stealth Detection) is in theory Lore-Friendly, but has not been implemented in a truly useful way. And it is heavily overshadowed in lore by Stealth, so why elevate an inferred trait over an established attribute.

Anyway, just some rambling on Stealth Detection's lore friendliness.

Keep up the fight, guys!

wedgebert

Aela_Dragonrider wrote: »

To be honest, I don't think its strictly true to say that the stealth detection bonus is unsupported by lore. Good senses, the ability to detect things lurking in dense foliage, etc... and remain aware of your surroundings IS an extremely valuable skill for hunting. Which the Bosmer would definitely excel at. Good sense would also be a great boon to thieves.

The problem though is that Khajiit have always (until ESO) had bonuses to vision ever Morrowind when racial powers were a thing.

As many people pointed out, if you used your scenario of pretending this is Alpha/Beta and someone read you the new Bosmer skills but didn't specify the race, you'd probably think they were the Khajiit powers

• Better vision/hearing
• Less fall damage
• Bonuses to dodging

That sure sounds like

• Cats have great vision vision
• Cats always land on their feet
• Cats are very agile creatures

Where as the Khajiit stealth bonus and critical damage is what I'd expect from renowned hunters who strike from the shadows and quickly dispatch their prey (i.e. Bosmer)

Aela_Dragonrider

wedgebert wrote: »

Aela_Dragonrider wrote: »

To be honest, I don't think its strictly true to say that the stealth detection bonus is unsupported by lore. Good senses, the ability to detect things lurking in dense foliage, etc... and remain aware of your surroundings IS an extremely valuable skill for hunting. Which the Bosmer would definitely excel at. Good sense would also be a great boon to thieves.

The problem though is that Khajiit have always (until ESO) had bonuses to vision ever Morrowind when racial powers were a thing.

As many people pointed out, if you used your scenario of pretending this is Alpha/Beta and someone read you the new Bosmer skills but didn't specify the race, you'd probably think they were the Khajiit powers

• Better vision/hearing
• Less fall damage
• Bonuses to dodging

That sure sounds like

• Cats have great vision vision
• Cats always land on their feet
• Cats are very agile creatures

Where as the Khajiit stealth bonus and critical damage is what I'd expect from renowned hunters who strike from the shadows and quickly dispatch their prey (i.e. Bosmer)

I was just saying that Stealth Detection being given to Bosmer is not 'unsupported by lore' as others have claimed, but at the same time is also very much overshadowed in lore and woefully implemented in-game compared stealth. Making it still a terrible replacement for stealth. I'd totally take stealth over stealth detection for my Bosmer any day of the year.
And yes, if any race should have passives tied to great senses, its the Khajiit. But unless they can find a better way of doing so, no race should be saddled with it.

BlueRaven

Aela_Dragonrider wrote: »

Awesome work, @Ratzkifal!

On a sorta side note, here's a few thoughts I had on Stealth Detection and Lore.

BlueRaven wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

correct me if I'm wrong, but scouting rarely involves detecting HIDDEN enemies but rather hiding while scouting enemy that can even be visible but cannot be judged or counted in plain sight? like... you kinda know that enemy is on the move, but you want to scout how fast they are moving, how big is the army, etc etc... so you HIDE, close by and track them. and they are not hidden, YOU are?

stealth detection for a scout doesn't make much sense to be TBH.

Exactly.

The new racial is just awful and really unsupported by lore.

A number of people have said that the Bosmer getting Stealth Detection is contrary to and unsupported by the lore.

To be honest, I don't think its strictly true to say that the stealth detection bonus is unsupported by lore. Good senses, the ability to detect things lurking in dense foliage, etc... and remain aware of your surroundings IS an extremely valuable skill for hunting. Which the Bosmer would definitely excel at. Good sense would also be a great boon to thieves.

However, this doesn't mean its more lore-firendly than stealth.

From a gameplay perspective: If the game had some way of better implementing said heightened sense, maybe it wouldn't be so bad. But as it stands, it is horribly, awfully represented by Stealth Detection and Stealth Detection only. Which, as everyone knows and has said before, is garbage when only get 3m extra and nothing else as per the Hunter's Eye Passive. And there are plenty of situations where being able to know where all the npcs and such is simply not helpful. Like trying to pick a lock in a crowded market. Once you go for the lock, you're not watching that guard walking his beat. You're trying to loot this strongbox before he walks by again and more stealth might just mean another second or two if you misjudged his timing.

From a lore perspective: Stealth Detection is kinda lore-friendly-ish. But, as has been pointed out by so many others here, it is Stealth was and is one of the top traits presented as being integral to the Bosmer. Awesome senses? That is more to be inferred from the lore.

So, heightened sense in Bosmer (aka. Stealth Detection) is in theory Lore-Friendly, but has not been implemented in a truly useful way. And it is heavily overshadowed in lore by Stealth, so why elevate an inferred trait over an established attribute.

Anyway, just some rambling on Stealth Detection's lore friendliness.

Keep up the fight, guys!

@wedgebert mentioned some of the problems with the racials, but there is a bit more I would like to add.

Hunting involves more than just good eyesight. Being loud and moving through a forest just scares off anything you were hunting. If the byline of Bosmers were that they were great lookouts or guards, then the improved sight would be fine.

Also great eyesight is a supposition that may not necessarily be true for Bosmers. There are some spiders for example, that either have poor or even no eyesight, yet they are still ambush predators. Also the issue with Bosmer's is that they are so in tune with the forest, they may be able track something by sound and feel alone. For example, it was shown in game, well before he becomes silvinaar, that at least one of them can commune with insects and the trees to find out what is going on. That ability may not be unique amongst bosmers, they can commune with small animals for example. It is possible that bosmers hunt well because they can recognize a disturbed plant, not because they can see their prey better than someone else.

We also have to deal with the fact that this game does not exist in a vacuum, it is an ES game and thus what ever racials they have should be reflected in the other games. Bosmers have never been known for their great eyesight. They have been know for great stealth, and currently their stealth is the same as nords, and not as good as Imperials which is a bit mind blowing. Giving them an eyesight ability and for that ability to never be seen again is awkward at best. Personally I would describe it as just lazy.

There were other ways ZoS could have given then stealth buffs, reduced detection radius is obvious and probably the strongest, but movements speed while in stealth, or a stamina reduction for stealth could have also been implemented.

Sylvermynx

Well, as someone who has hunted for over 30 years IRL I have to say that you're spot on there @BlueRaven. My hunting experience in those decades is with mule deer and elk in Utah. These animals are.... not like whitetail. They don't have "paths" they travel to and from feed (some of which isn't even legal here - feeding hunt animals is illegal here, and there are no "hunt share" properties as in Texas for instance).

When we hunted (we gave it up some years back - the horses died, I don't DO ATVs, and really, husband's too old to do the heavy climbing etc. any more) we were up a LONG time before dawn (like, yeah, 1am), saddled the horses, and usually rode around 7 -10 miles to where we expected to find animals. We'd stop a mile or so away, tie the horses after pulling saddles etc., and then sneak (yeah.... in the dark, in the cold, and trying really hard NOT to make much noise - difficult for humans in cold weather gear and boots....)

Once we got to the target area, hopefully well before daylight, we'd settle in somewhere above where we expected to see deer or elk. One time that was 40 feet up on a rock outcrop.... we didn't see any animals early, and I was sleepy, so handed my rifle off to husband and literally fell asleep that far off the ground, on a ledge about a foot wide and 6 feet long.... (I can sleep anywhere).

That day, we bagged a nice spike bull in the late afternoon, bigger than my 16+ hand, 1200 pound horse. Used a block and tackle to put the carcass up a tree so nothing could get at it after bleeding it out and field-dressing it, then saddled the horses and rode back to camp. It was LONG after dark when we got there, then we had to care for the horses and clean up before we could even think about dinner. And the next day we had to make the trip back, cut the elk into quarters, balance two on each horse, then lead them back to camp. Another VERY long day.

Stealth was important. We had to be as quiet as possible even long before dawn. We had to use maskers so the animals wouldn't immediately think "humans time to run!". We had to keep track of sounds and what they might mean. We had to THINK about everything around us - birds, insects, etc. not only the game we were hunting.

Now, as for ESO, I'm not big into stealth in this game. Things didn't run that way for me for some reason. But I do get that ZOS blew this big time.

Yes, everything we did when RL hunting has resonances in "detection". But - a lot of it was plain and simple active stealth. And boy do I miss elk steaks....

Ratzkifal

Aela_Dragonrider wrote: »

wedgebert wrote: »

Aela_Dragonrider wrote: »

To be honest, I don't think its strictly true to say that the stealth detection bonus is unsupported by lore. Good senses, the ability to detect things lurking in dense foliage, etc... and remain aware of your surroundings IS an extremely valuable skill for hunting. Which the Bosmer would definitely excel at. Good sense would also be a great boon to thieves.

The problem though is that Khajiit have always (until ESO) had bonuses to vision ever Morrowind when racial powers were a thing.

As many people pointed out, if you used your scenario of pretending this is Alpha/Beta and someone read you the new Bosmer skills but didn't specify the race, you'd probably think they were the Khajiit powers

• Better vision/hearing
• Less fall damage
• Bonuses to dodging

That sure sounds like

• Cats have great vision vision
• Cats always land on their feet
• Cats are very agile creatures

Where as the Khajiit stealth bonus and critical damage is what I'd expect from renowned hunters who strike from the shadows and quickly dispatch their prey (i.e. Bosmer)

I was just saying that Stealth Detection being given to Bosmer is not 'unsupported by lore' as others have claimed, but at the same time is also very much overshadowed in lore and woefully implemented in-game compared stealth. Making it still a terrible replacement for stealth. I'd totally take stealth over stealth detection for my Bosmer any day of the year.
And yes, if any race should have passives tied to great senses, its the Khajiit. But unless they can find a better way of doing so, no race should be saddled with it.

If anything, the only detective in the lore that I know of, Investigator Vale, is a Bosmer, right? I'd say you can justify improved detection for Khajiit due to their cat eyes and for Bosmer due to their skill as hunters and scouts. But in both cases I just can't justify giving it a higher priority than stealth on the racial passives.

Jaraal

Ratzkifal wrote: »

To the developers the detection is probably equivalent to sneak and they think they were doing us a favor. That makes way more sense than them favoring one race over another.

Sure, because the developers obviously think PvP is far more important than PvE, even though their money is in the RPGers who care more about questing, lore, buying appropriate outfits and decorating houses in their racial styles, etc.... and who represent the majority of players. How many PvE zones are there, compared to how many PvP zones are available (and are population capped, too)?

And this is the insult added to the injury. Not only do they take away a Bosmer core mechanic, but they say 'Here, have a nice PvP buff instead!' Except most people can't take advantage of it anyway, and even the PvPers are scratching their heads trying to figure out what it's good for. It's like ZOS saying, 'Look we made this wonderful, delicious hot soup for you to enjoy! Now here's your fork.... have at it!'

Thanks for nothing!

Ratzkifal

Jaraal wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

To the developers the detection is probably equivalent to sneak and they think they were doing us a favor. That makes way more sense than them favoring one race over another.

Sure, because the developers obviously think PvP is far more important than PvE, even though their money is in the RPGers who care more about questing, lore, buying appropriate outfits and decorating houses in their racial styles, etc.... and who represent the majority of players. How many PvE zones are there, compared to how many PvP zones are available (and are population capped, too)?

And this is the insult added to the injury. Not only do they take away a Bosmer core mechanic, but they say 'Here, have a nice PvP buff instead!' Except most people can't take advantage of it anyway, and even the PvPers are scratching their heads trying to figure out what it's good for. It's like ZOS saying, 'Look we made this wonderful, delicious hot soup for you to enjoy! Now here's your fork.... have at it!'

Thanks for nothing!

@Jaraal You are making it sound like PvP and PvE/RPG are mutually exclusive. Look, I think this is not an optimal solution either and I am not defending what we got, because I too think that the dodgeroll passive is a bit too niche if we compare it to things the other races got. Even the Altmer passive is always useful regardless of how stupid it is otherwise! But my point remains, the developers are not playing favorites. They are doing things with their best intentions and as a developer you'll always have a different perspective on things than players, which can also cause you to become blind to some issues players deal with every day. There is no reason to assume malice if incompetence is a perfectly good explanation. I would also ask you (and anyone else) to move this to PMs if you wish to continue as this is not the place for this discussion.

wedgebert

Ratzkifal wrote: »

@Jaraal You are making it sound like PvP and PvE/RPG are mutually exclusive. Look, I think this is not an optimal solution either and I am not defending what we got, because I too think that the dodgeroll passive is a bit too niche if we compare it to things the other races got. Even the Altmer passive is always useful regardless of how stupid it is otherwise! But my point remains, the developers are not playing favorites. They are doing things with their best intentions and as a developer you'll always have a different perspective on things than players, which can also cause you to become blind to some issues players deal with every day. There is no reason to assume malice if incompetence is a perfectly good explanation. I would also ask you (and anyone else) to move this to PMs if you wish to continue as this is not the place for this discussion.

PvP and PvE aren't mutually exclusive, but way more are for the latter than the former. Not only that, but the 3m detect buff is so minuscule that even people in PvP have trouble using it because it's so niche.

As to the developer's best intentions, they aren't communicating anything about this ever since their first dev note. Given how the change directly contradicts the stated goals of the racial rebalance. When this was pointed out all we got was silence from them. Communication isn't difficult and can go a long way towards soothing the angry people. But we get nothing which just makes it worse.

This has been a mostly civil conversation so far, so taking to PMs is just going to make it disappear off the radar that much faster.

Arato

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Arato wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

@BlueRaven Some of your thoughts are very interesting on what is actually going on, though I am more pessimistic on the natural outcome of things.

My guess is that ZOS is working on a system that expands on the current systems and allows all classes and races to become stealthy.

The most likely thing to happen is that racials will stack with the new system - whatever it may be. They might think that Bosmer players only want the 3m reduction buff no matter where its from and think to themselves "oh they will love this new set that will make them able to sneak and do trials without switching sets" and while that would be indeed great on one end, I think ZOS would not have chosen to remove Bosmer sneak racials if they were considering that it is important for Bosmer to have an inherent sneaking advantage.
I think it will end up as a suboptimal solution in my opinion, because it defies the point of having racials in the first place. Racial passives are meant to express something about the player character's race. From the way they have handled it I just can't rationalize ZOS taking away Bosmer stealth carelessly while at the same time being so very aware of the meaning this carries, as they would give it back later anyway through expanding racials. Them actually planning to expand the racials to include stealth and interpreting their statements as such would indeed calm my frustration about this, but even then it does not work neatly. Judging by "opening up other races" it sounds like they want to change sneak all around and not just for sneaking races. If that is the case then it still leaves the question why they didn't do it now if it would be focused on the races anyway. There are too many contradictories at work here if I assume that they will just make everything to my liking in the end.

And that is why I think ZOS was just acting carelessly and just looking at numbers a bit too much instead of lore books during their rebalance. It makes more sense, takes less assumptions, contains no malice, no evil scheme, but carelessness and miscalculation of how important a "minor flavor passive" could be. Their bigger plan might be great and all but it almost certainly won't address the issue of disregarding lore in the racial passives. And if it does, then their communication is bad for sending so many mixed signals and not talking to us.

Your train of thought doesn't check into the station because KHAJIIT KEPT THEIR RACIAL STEALTH BONUS.

There's no excuse, it's all developer bias. that's all it's ever been. Blatant Developer bias in favor of Khajiit.

@Arato My train of thought does check into the station and I would appreciate if you kept being polite in this thread. My point is that we should not assume malice if we can explain it with incompetence. To the developers the detection is probably equivalent to sneak and they think they were doing us a favor. That makes way more sense than them favoring one race over another.

It doesn't make sense though when you do something like "oh they removed it because they intend to overhaul stealth so everyone can be stealthy... but let's just leave ONE race better at it than any others while nerfing the other one"
What you're trying to say ONLY makes sense if they removed the stealth trait from both races.

wedgebert

Arato wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

It doesn't make sense though when you do something like "oh they removed it because they intend to overhaul stealth so everyone can be stealthy... but let's just leave ONE race better at it than any others while nerfing the other one"
What you're trying to say ONLY makes sense if they removed the stealth trait from both races.

Sounds like what an Imperial would say so that they could be the best stealth race instead of 2nd best!

Cundu_Ertur

Aela_Dragonrider wrote: »

Awesome work, @Ratzkifal!

On a sorta side note, here's a few thoughts I had on Stealth Detection and Lore.

BlueRaven wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

correct me if I'm wrong, but scouting rarely involves detecting HIDDEN enemies but rather hiding while scouting enemy that can even be visible but cannot be judged or counted in plain sight? like... you kinda know that enemy is on the move, but you want to scout how fast they are moving, how big is the army, etc etc... so you HIDE, close by and track them. and they are not hidden, YOU are?

stealth detection for a scout doesn't make much sense to be TBH.

Exactly.

The new racial is just awful and really unsupported by lore.

A number of people have said that the Bosmer getting Stealth Detection is contrary to and unsupported by the lore.
...

If it was getting the detection IN ADDITION TO the hiding bonus, it would be fine. As you note, being perceptive would fit the scout role. However, that Bosmer are stealthy (in that they hide very well) is explicitly spelled out. So REPLACING stealth with detection is what the problem is. That's what makes the change contrary to lore. And you note this later by pointing out that the stealth bonus is explicit in the lore, while the detection is at best inferred.

Honestly, I think we're on the same page here.

Marcus_Thracius

Vote with your wallet - otherwise they ignore you

Mauz

From a Khajiit perspective Bosmer is right now kind of broken in PvP. They got a massive dmg boost, bosmer even crit harder than my Khajiit…

ZoS seems to want my cat to be a kind of jack of all trades, a sneaky heavy armor hybrid low crit cat focusing on crit damage. Actually my cat feels more like a duck right now...can a bit walk, can a bit fly, can a bit swim but nothing really good.

If they would just switch racials from Bosmer to Khajiit it would by a crown for my cat and call it king

Aela_Dragonrider

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Aela_Dragonrider wrote: »

Awesome work, @Ratzkifal!

On a sorta side note, here's a few thoughts I had on Stealth Detection and Lore.

BlueRaven wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

correct me if I'm wrong, but scouting rarely involves detecting HIDDEN enemies but rather hiding while scouting enemy that can even be visible but cannot be judged or counted in plain sight? like... you kinda know that enemy is on the move, but you want to scout how fast they are moving, how big is the army, etc etc... so you HIDE, close by and track them. and they are not hidden, YOU are?

stealth detection for a scout doesn't make much sense to be TBH.

Exactly.

The new racial is just awful and really unsupported by lore.

A number of people have said that the Bosmer getting Stealth Detection is contrary to and unsupported by the lore.
...

If it was getting the detection IN ADDITION TO the hiding bonus, it would be fine. As you note, being perceptive would fit the scout role. However, that Bosmer are stealthy (in that they hide very well) is explicitly spelled out. So REPLACING stealth with detection is what the problem is. That's what makes the change contrary to lore. And you note this later by pointing out that the stealth bonus is explicit in the lore, while the detection is at best inferred.

Honestly, I think we're on the same page here.

Exactly.

Though I admit, my post could have been more clear on this, so sorry if it confused anyone. Or gave the impression I was in favor of the Detection, which I am definitely not.

Hand_Bacon

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

[
Good lord, more of this "avoidance is the same as stealth" nonsense. Again: stealth is not avoidance, avoidance is not stealth. Stealth is being in a place without being noticed. Avoidance is not being in that place at all.
Detection without stealth = guard.
Detection with stealth = scout.
Stealth with or without detection = thief.

Really? What have I been talking about this whole time? I'm talking about the concept of stealth, not a some 1 and 0's cops and robbers stealthed or not game mechanic that you think supersedes the concept. Good lord I'll spell it out again.

Avoidance and detection WITHIN the concept of stealth.
Avoidance = avoiding detection
Detection = detecting those avoiding detection