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Wood Elf/ Bosmer losing stealth passive, An open letter.

  • BlueRaven
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    @Ratzkifal What you said is probably true, I am just hoping it isn't. I really hope there actually is a grand overall plan for these bewildering changes.

    The big tripping point for me is the kahjit racial and how this fits with any future plans (if they actually exist). And yes there is a lot of contradictory statements floating around about this.

    I am hoping that the trip to Pax East will clear some of this up which brings me back to my post I said earlier today;

    "1) Are they REALLY going to put in system for stealth?
    2) When will it happen?
    3) Will Kahjits and imperials always have a stealth advantage?"


    I am hoping I can finally get some answers.
    Edited by BlueRaven on March 2, 2019 8:08PM
  • BlueRaven
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    @Ratzkifal Thats pretty great! Love it!
  • Eiron77
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    @Ratzkifal glad you're continuing to improve it. Looks great and definitely much easier to read with the spoilers.
  • Cundu_Ertur
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    Jaraal wrote: »
    Hand_Bacon wrote: »
    Scouting has as much to do with detecting hidden enemy assets as those in plain sight.

    Except there are exactly zero hidden enemy assets in ESO for the vast majority of Bosmer players.



    I think it would stack, so they'd pay more to get more. That's why my proposal has always included a slight reduction in the Khajiit racial boost for stealth.

    While I love my Bosmer main, I would be totally against this as I have 4 max Leger/TG/DB Khajiit thieves, and I don't wish to see their livelihood and relevance nerfed, either.

    I'm guessing you missed it, or it was a while ago. My proposal was that Khajiit would get 2m from their racial, Bosmer 1m from their racial, and all races could get 2m from legerdemain. Khajiit would end up with 4m, Bosmer 3m, everyone else the basic 2m. Your cats would get a 1m from my proposal.
    Taking stealth away from the Bosmer is like taking magic away from the Altmer, making Nords allergic to mead, or making Orcs pretty.
  • Arato
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    Ratzkifal wrote: »
    @BlueRaven Some of your thoughts are very interesting on what is actually going on, though I am more pessimistic on the natural outcome of things.

    My guess is that ZOS is working on a system that expands on the current systems and allows all classes and races to become stealthy.

    The most likely thing to happen is that racials will stack with the new system - whatever it may be. They might think that Bosmer players only want the 3m reduction buff no matter where its from and think to themselves "oh they will love this new set that will make them able to sneak and do trials without switching sets" and while that would be indeed great on one end, I think ZOS would not have chosen to remove Bosmer sneak racials if they were considering that it is important for Bosmer to have an inherent sneaking advantage.
    I think it will end up as a suboptimal solution in my opinion, because it defies the point of having racials in the first place. Racial passives are meant to express something about the player character's race. From the way they have handled it I just can't rationalize ZOS taking away Bosmer stealth carelessly while at the same time being so very aware of the meaning this carries, as they would give it back later anyway through expanding racials. Them actually planning to expand the racials to include stealth and interpreting their statements as such would indeed calm my frustration about this, but even then it does not work neatly. Judging by "opening up other races" it sounds like they want to change sneak all around and not just for sneaking races. If that is the case then it still leaves the question why they didn't do it now if it would be focused on the races anyway. There are too many contradictories at work here if I assume that they will just make everything to my liking in the end.

    And that is why I think ZOS was just acting carelessly and just looking at numbers a bit too much instead of lore books during their rebalance. It makes more sense, takes less assumptions, contains no malice, no evil scheme, but carelessness and miscalculation of how important a "minor flavor passive" could be. Their bigger plan might be great and all but it almost certainly won't address the issue of disregarding lore in the racial passives. And if it does, then their communication is bad for sending so many mixed signals and not talking to us.

    Your train of thought doesn't check into the station because KHAJIIT KEPT THEIR RACIAL STEALTH BONUS.

    There's no excuse, it's all developer bias. that's all it's ever been. Blatant Developer bias in favor of Khajiit.
  • Ratzkifal
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    Arato wrote: »
    Ratzkifal wrote: »
    @BlueRaven Some of your thoughts are very interesting on what is actually going on, though I am more pessimistic on the natural outcome of things.

    My guess is that ZOS is working on a system that expands on the current systems and allows all classes and races to become stealthy.

    The most likely thing to happen is that racials will stack with the new system - whatever it may be. They might think that Bosmer players only want the 3m reduction buff no matter where its from and think to themselves "oh they will love this new set that will make them able to sneak and do trials without switching sets" and while that would be indeed great on one end, I think ZOS would not have chosen to remove Bosmer sneak racials if they were considering that it is important for Bosmer to have an inherent sneaking advantage.
    I think it will end up as a suboptimal solution in my opinion, because it defies the point of having racials in the first place. Racial passives are meant to express something about the player character's race. From the way they have handled it I just can't rationalize ZOS taking away Bosmer stealth carelessly while at the same time being so very aware of the meaning this carries, as they would give it back later anyway through expanding racials. Them actually planning to expand the racials to include stealth and interpreting their statements as such would indeed calm my frustration about this, but even then it does not work neatly. Judging by "opening up other races" it sounds like they want to change sneak all around and not just for sneaking races. If that is the case then it still leaves the question why they didn't do it now if it would be focused on the races anyway. There are too many contradictories at work here if I assume that they will just make everything to my liking in the end.

    And that is why I think ZOS was just acting carelessly and just looking at numbers a bit too much instead of lore books during their rebalance. It makes more sense, takes less assumptions, contains no malice, no evil scheme, but carelessness and miscalculation of how important a "minor flavor passive" could be. Their bigger plan might be great and all but it almost certainly won't address the issue of disregarding lore in the racial passives. And if it does, then their communication is bad for sending so many mixed signals and not talking to us.

    Your train of thought doesn't check into the station because KHAJIIT KEPT THEIR RACIAL STEALTH BONUS.

    There's no excuse, it's all developer bias. that's all it's ever been. Blatant Developer bias in favor of Khajiit.

    @Arato My train of thought does check into the station and I would appreciate if you kept being polite in this thread. My point is that we should not assume malice if we can explain it with incompetence. To the developers the detection is probably equivalent to sneak and they think they were doing us a favor. That makes way more sense than them favoring one race over another.
    This Bosmer was tortured to death. There is nothing left to be done.
  • Eiron77
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    BlueRaven wrote: »
    I made a joke about it in another forum thread but I might as well repeat it here. "What Bosmers are currently really good at is being AD's third race. Without the Bosmers the race select screen would be unsymmetrical. "
    The Bosmers racials appear to be just, well "there", almost as a filler, there is nothing about them that is super interesting.

    I remember reading that comment. It still feels bitterly true. It's what's most upsetting as my character has lost its character with one little change.

    Well, put in a good word for us Bosmers at PAX-E. Hopefully you get your chance to stand up for us bosmer players. Travel safe!
  • Aela_Dragonrider
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    Awesome work, @Ratzkifal!

    On a sorta side note, here's a few thoughts I had on Stealth Detection and Lore.
    BlueRaven wrote: »
    Linaleah wrote: »
    correct me if I'm wrong, but scouting rarely involves detecting HIDDEN enemies but rather hiding while scouting enemy that can even be visible but cannot be judged or counted in plain sight? like... you kinda know that enemy is on the move, but you want to scout how fast they are moving, how big is the army, etc etc... so you HIDE, close by and track them. and they are not hidden, YOU are?

    stealth detection for a scout doesn't make much sense to be TBH.

    Exactly.

    The new racial is just awful and really unsupported by lore.

    A number of people have said that the Bosmer getting Stealth Detection is contrary to and unsupported by the lore.

    To be honest, I don't think its strictly true to say that the stealth detection bonus is unsupported by lore. Good senses, the ability to detect things lurking in dense foliage, etc... and remain aware of your surroundings IS an extremely valuable skill for hunting. Which the Bosmer would definitely excel at. Good sense would also be a great boon to thieves.

    However, this doesn't mean its more lore-firendly than stealth.

    From a gameplay perspective: If the game had some way of better implementing said heightened sense, maybe it wouldn't be so bad. But as it stands, it is horribly, awfully represented by Stealth Detection and Stealth Detection only. Which, as everyone knows and has said before, is garbage when only get 3m extra and nothing else as per the Hunter's Eye Passive. And there are plenty of situations where being able to know where all the npcs and such is simply not helpful. Like trying to pick a lock in a crowded market. Once you go for the lock, you're not watching that guard walking his beat. You're trying to loot this strongbox before he walks by again and more stealth might just mean another second or two if you misjudged his timing.

    From a lore perspective: Stealth Detection is kinda lore-friendly-ish. But, as has been pointed out by so many others here, it is Stealth was and is one of the top traits presented as being integral to the Bosmer. Awesome senses? That is more to be inferred from the lore.

    So, heightened sense in Bosmer (aka. Stealth Detection) is in theory Lore-Friendly, but has not been implemented in a truly useful way. And it is heavily overshadowed in lore by Stealth, so why elevate an inferred trait over an established attribute.

    Anyway, just some rambling on Stealth Detection's lore friendliness.

    Keep up the fight, guys!

    Edited by Aela_Dragonrider on March 3, 2019 12:40AM
  • Aela_Dragonrider
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    wedgebert wrote: »
    To be honest, I don't think its strictly true to say that the stealth detection bonus is unsupported by lore. Good senses, the ability to detect things lurking in dense foliage, etc... and remain aware of your surroundings IS an extremely valuable skill for hunting. Which the Bosmer would definitely excel at. Good sense would also be a great boon to thieves.

    The problem though is that Khajiit have always (until ESO) had bonuses to vision ever Morrowind when racial powers were a thing.

    As many people pointed out, if you used your scenario of pretending this is Alpha/Beta and someone read you the new Bosmer skills but didn't specify the race, you'd probably think they were the Khajiit powers
    • Better vision/hearing
    • Less fall damage
    • Bonuses to dodging

    That sure sounds like
    • Cats have great vision vision
    • Cats always land on their feet
    • Cats are very agile creatures

    Where as the Khajiit stealth bonus and critical damage is what I'd expect from renowned hunters who strike from the shadows and quickly dispatch their prey (i.e. Bosmer)

    I was just saying that Stealth Detection being given to Bosmer is not 'unsupported by lore' as others have claimed, but at the same time is also very much overshadowed in lore and woefully implemented in-game compared stealth. Making it still a terrible replacement for stealth. I'd totally take stealth over stealth detection for my Bosmer any day of the year.
    And yes, if any race should have passives tied to great senses, its the Khajiit. But unless they can find a better way of doing so, no race should be saddled with it.
    Edited by Aela_Dragonrider on March 3, 2019 1:23AM
  • Ratzkifal
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    wedgebert wrote: »
    To be honest, I don't think its strictly true to say that the stealth detection bonus is unsupported by lore. Good senses, the ability to detect things lurking in dense foliage, etc... and remain aware of your surroundings IS an extremely valuable skill for hunting. Which the Bosmer would definitely excel at. Good sense would also be a great boon to thieves.

    The problem though is that Khajiit have always (until ESO) had bonuses to vision ever Morrowind when racial powers were a thing.

    As many people pointed out, if you used your scenario of pretending this is Alpha/Beta and someone read you the new Bosmer skills but didn't specify the race, you'd probably think they were the Khajiit powers
    • Better vision/hearing
    • Less fall damage
    • Bonuses to dodging

    That sure sounds like
    • Cats have great vision vision
    • Cats always land on their feet
    • Cats are very agile creatures

    Where as the Khajiit stealth bonus and critical damage is what I'd expect from renowned hunters who strike from the shadows and quickly dispatch their prey (i.e. Bosmer)

    I was just saying that Stealth Detection being given to Bosmer is not 'unsupported by lore' as others have claimed, but at the same time is also very much overshadowed in lore and woefully implemented in-game compared stealth. Making it still a terrible replacement for stealth. I'd totally take stealth over stealth detection for my Bosmer any day of the year.
    And yes, if any race should have passives tied to great senses, its the Khajiit. But unless they can find a better way of doing so, no race should be saddled with it.

    If anything, the only detective in the lore that I know of, Investigator Vale, is a Bosmer, right? I'd say you can justify improved detection for Khajiit due to their cat eyes and for Bosmer due to their skill as hunters and scouts. But in both cases I just can't justify giving it a higher priority than stealth on the racial passives.
    This Bosmer was tortured to death. There is nothing left to be done.
  • Ratzkifal
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    Jaraal wrote: »
    Ratzkifal wrote: »
    To the developers the detection is probably equivalent to sneak and they think they were doing us a favor. That makes way more sense than them favoring one race over another.

    Sure, because the developers obviously think PvP is far more important than PvE, even though their money is in the RPGers who care more about questing, lore, buying appropriate outfits and decorating houses in their racial styles, etc.... and who represent the majority of players. How many PvE zones are there, compared to how many PvP zones are available (and are population capped, too)?

    And this is the insult added to the injury. Not only do they take away a Bosmer core mechanic, but they say 'Here, have a nice PvP buff instead!' Except most people can't take advantage of it anyway, and even the PvPers are scratching their heads trying to figure out what it's good for. It's like ZOS saying, 'Look we made this wonderful, delicious hot soup for you to enjoy! Now here's your fork.... have at it!'

    Thanks for nothing!

    @Jaraal You are making it sound like PvP and PvE/RPG are mutually exclusive. Look, I think this is not an optimal solution either and I am not defending what we got, because I too think that the dodgeroll passive is a bit too niche if we compare it to things the other races got. Even the Altmer passive is always useful regardless of how stupid it is otherwise! But my point remains, the developers are not playing favorites. They are doing things with their best intentions and as a developer you'll always have a different perspective on things than players, which can also cause you to become blind to some issues players deal with every day. There is no reason to assume malice if incompetence is a perfectly good explanation. I would also ask you (and anyone else) to move this to PMs if you wish to continue as this is not the place for this discussion.
    Edited by Ratzkifal on March 3, 2019 2:44AM
    This Bosmer was tortured to death. There is nothing left to be done.
  • wedgebert
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    Ratzkifal wrote: »
    @Jaraal You are making it sound like PvP and PvE/RPG are mutually exclusive. Look, I think this is not an optimal solution either and I am not defending what we got, because I too think that the dodgeroll passive is a bit too niche if we compare it to things the other races got. Even the Altmer passive is always useful regardless of how stupid it is otherwise! But my point remains, the developers are not playing favorites. They are doing things with their best intentions and as a developer you'll always have a different perspective on things than players, which can also cause you to become blind to some issues players deal with every day. There is no reason to assume malice if incompetence is a perfectly good explanation. I would also ask you (and anyone else) to move this to PMs if you wish to continue as this is not the place for this discussion.

    PvP and PvE aren't mutually exclusive, but way more are for the latter than the former. Not only that, but the 3m detect buff is so minuscule that even people in PvP have trouble using it because it's so niche.

    As to the developer's best intentions, they aren't communicating anything about this ever since their first dev note. Given how the change directly contradicts the stated goals of the racial rebalance. When this was pointed out all we got was silence from them. Communication isn't difficult and can go a long way towards soothing the angry people. But we get nothing which just makes it worse.

    This has been a mostly civil conversation so far, so taking to PMs is just going to make it disappear off the radar that much faster.
  • wedgebert
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    Arato wrote: »
    Ratzkifal wrote: »
    It doesn't make sense though when you do something like "oh they removed it because they intend to overhaul stealth so everyone can be stealthy... but let's just leave ONE race better at it than any others while nerfing the other one"
    What you're trying to say ONLY makes sense if they removed the stealth trait from both races.

    Sounds like what an Imperial would say so that they could be the best stealth race instead of 2nd best!
  • Mauz
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    From a Khajiit perspective Bosmer is right now kind of broken in PvP. They got a massive dmg boost, bosmer even crit harder than my Khajiit…

    ZoS seems to want my cat to be a kind of jack of all trades, a sneaky heavy armor hybrid low crit cat focusing on crit damage. Actually my cat feels more like a duck right now...can a bit walk, can a bit fly, can a bit swim but nothing really good.

    If they would just switch racials from Bosmer to Khajiit it would by a crown for my cat and call it king :smiley:
  • Aela_Dragonrider
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    Awesome work, @Ratzkifal!

    On a sorta side note, here's a few thoughts I had on Stealth Detection and Lore.
    BlueRaven wrote: »
    Linaleah wrote: »
    correct me if I'm wrong, but scouting rarely involves detecting HIDDEN enemies but rather hiding while scouting enemy that can even be visible but cannot be judged or counted in plain sight? like... you kinda know that enemy is on the move, but you want to scout how fast they are moving, how big is the army, etc etc... so you HIDE, close by and track them. and they are not hidden, YOU are?

    stealth detection for a scout doesn't make much sense to be TBH.

    Exactly.

    The new racial is just awful and really unsupported by lore.

    A number of people have said that the Bosmer getting Stealth Detection is contrary to and unsupported by the lore.
    ...

    If it was getting the detection IN ADDITION TO the hiding bonus, it would be fine. As you note, being perceptive would fit the scout role. However, that Bosmer are stealthy (in that they hide very well) is explicitly spelled out. So REPLACING stealth with detection is what the problem is. That's what makes the change contrary to lore. And you note this later by pointing out that the stealth bonus is explicit in the lore, while the detection is at best inferred.

    Honestly, I think we're on the same page here.

    Exactly.

    Though I admit, my post could have been more clear on this, so sorry if it confused anyone. Or gave the impression I was in favor of the Detection, which I am definitely not.
  • Hand_Bacon
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    [
    Good lord, more of this "avoidance is the same as stealth" nonsense. Again: stealth is not avoidance, avoidance is not stealth. Stealth is being in a place without being noticed. Avoidance is not being in that place at all.
    Detection without stealth = guard.
    Detection with stealth = scout.
    Stealth with or without detection = thief.

    Really? What have I been talking about this whole time? I'm talking about the concept of stealth, not a some 1 and 0's cops and robbers stealthed or not game mechanic that you think supersedes the concept. Good lord I'll spell it out again.

    Avoidance and detection WITHIN the concept of stealth.
    Avoidance = avoiding detection
    Detection = detecting those avoiding detection

    Edited by Hand_Bacon on March 3, 2019 12:56PM
This discussion has been closed.