@BlueRaven Some of your thoughts are very interesting on what is actually going on, though I am more pessimistic on the natural outcome of things.
My guess is that ZOS is working on a system that expands on the current systems and allows all classes and races to become stealthy.
The most likely thing to happen is that racials will stack with the new system - whatever it may be. They might think that Bosmer players only want the 3m reduction buff no matter where its from and think to themselves "oh they will love this new set that will make them able to sneak and do trials without switching sets" and while that would be indeed great on one end, I think ZOS would not have chosen to remove Bosmer sneak racials if they were considering that it is important for Bosmer to have an inherent sneaking advantage.
I think it will end up as a suboptimal solution in my opinion, because it defies the point of having racials in the first place. Racial passives are meant to express something about the player character's race. From the way they have handled it I just can't rationalize ZOS taking away Bosmer stealth carelessly while at the same time being so very aware of the meaning this carries, as they would give it back later anyway through expanding racials. Them actually planning to expand the racials to include stealth and interpreting their statements as such would indeed calm my frustration about this, but even then it does not work neatly. Judging by "opening up other races" it sounds like they want to change sneak all around and not just for sneaking races. If that is the case then it still leaves the question why they didn't do it now if it would be focused on the races anyway. There are too many contradictories at work here if I assume that they will just make everything to my liking in the end.
And that is why I think ZOS was just acting carelessly and just looking at numbers a bit too much instead of lore books during their rebalance. It makes more sense, takes less assumptions, contains no malice, no evil scheme, but carelessness and miscalculation of how important a "minor flavor passive" could be. Their bigger plan might be great and all but it almost certainly won't address the issue of disregarding lore in the racial passives. And if it does, then their communication is bad for sending so many mixed signals and not talking to us.
@BlueRaven
While I agree with the points you made, about the upcoming stealth changes and how they might equalize every race in stealth in the end... I don't know if that would be enough to bring me back. (I know you already know these points I make below, but bear with me).
My main issue is how ZOS appeared to be passive aggressive about the wood elf concerns of the Stealthy removal. The first response they made was earlier in the PTS and they actually stated they heard our concerns, but their proposed resolution--while a great idea and needed for a long time--glossed over the actual point of our concerns (which is pretty well summarized by @Ratzkifal ).
So we continued to voice our complaints throughout the rest of the PTS. They already showed they were listening to feedback, so my best assumption would be that they continued to know the mass dissent from their changes to Wood Elves. Our main concern was lore. So in the final change they made to Hunters Eye, they rewrote it's description to fit their new concept of the racial. It was underhanded, a stab in the back, and came off as passive-aggressive to me. That may not have been their intent, but the complete lack of any other response gives me no cause to believe otherwise.
I have so many other issues with Hunters Eye as I've laid out in many comments on these forums [snip]. And while I don't expect there to be an apology, I think at this time, the only thing that can bring me back is a return to a racial passive that benefits wood elves' ability to sneak, thats in line with their lore, and sets them apart in gameplay mechanics as natural sneak-thieves. It doesn't have to be the same as before.
The reason this would bring me back is, this whole issue is just a small thing and really not that important in life. But if a restaurant changes their recipe and I don't like the new taste, I'll stop eating there. However, if I later hear that they went back to the old recipe, I'll go return. If it tastes the way it used to, I'll be content as all I wanted was to enjoy the that familiar taste when I wanted. Doesn't matter if the restaurant was a bit stubborn about customer feedback... All I want is to enjoy that particular dish again. And the chef adding a great side dish isn't going to bring that satisfaction back.
I like my Bosmer sneak-thief. Being able to play GTA in a fantasy setting MMO is my ultimate pass time. But character concept is very important to me. And so my character must feel sneaker than most. It doesnt anymore. I am also a completionist and having 1 of 3 racials sitting there unused when it could be so much better, is upsetting to me. My character doesnt feel the same anymore and my preferred passtime no longer brings satisfaction. I don't think I can be satisfied until my Bosmer itself--no outside influence--feels sneaky again.
But we'll see what happens. I'll continue to watch news about this and see if the new stealth changes surprise me. But given their seeming nonchalant attitude in this whole ordeal, that side dish has a very high expectation to win me over.
@BlueRaven Some of your thoughts are very interesting on what is actually going on, though I am more pessimistic on the natural outcome of things.
My guess is that ZOS is working on a system that expands on the current systems and allows all classes and races to become stealthy.
The most likely thing to happen is that racials will stack with the new system - whatever it may be. They might think that Bosmer players only want the 3m reduction buff no matter where its from and think to themselves "oh they will love this new set that will make them able to sneak and do trials without switching sets" and while that would be indeed great on one end, I think ZOS would not have chosen to remove Bosmer sneak racials if they were considering that it is important for Bosmer to have an inherent sneaking advantage.
I think it will end up as a suboptimal solution in my opinion, because it defies the point of having racials in the first place. Racial passives are meant to express something about the player character's race. From the way they have handled it I just can't rationalize ZOS taking away Bosmer stealth carelessly while at the same time being so very aware of the meaning this carries, as they would give it back later anyway through expanding racials. Them actually planning to expand the racials to include stealth and interpreting their statements as such would indeed calm my frustration about this, but even then it does not work neatly. Judging by "opening up other races" it sounds like they want to change sneak all around and not just for sneaking races. If that is the case then it still leaves the question why they didn't do it now if it would be focused on the races anyway. There are too many contradictories at work here if I assume that they will just make everything to my liking in the end.
And that is why I think ZOS was just acting carelessly and just looking at numbers a bit too much instead of lore books during their rebalance. It makes more sense, takes less assumptions, contains no malice, no evil scheme, but carelessness and miscalculation of how important a "minor flavor passive" could be. Their bigger plan might be great and all but it almost certainly won't address the issue of disregarding lore in the racial passives. And if it does, then their communication is bad for sending so many mixed signals and not talking to us.
Your train of thought doesn't check into the station because KHAJIIT KEPT THEIR RACIAL STEALTH BONUS.
There's no excuse, it's all developer bias. that's all it's ever been. Blatant Developer bias in favor of Khajiit.
I made a joke about it in another forum thread but I might as well repeat it here. "What Bosmers are currently really good at is being AD's third race. Without the Bosmers the race select screen would be unsymmetrical. "
The Bosmers racials appear to be just, well "there", almost as a filler, there is nothing about them that is super interesting.
correct me if I'm wrong, but scouting rarely involves detecting HIDDEN enemies but rather hiding while scouting enemy that can even be visible but cannot be judged or counted in plain sight? like... you kinda know that enemy is on the move, but you want to scout how fast they are moving, how big is the army, etc etc... so you HIDE, close by and track them. and they are not hidden, YOU are?
stealth detection for a scout doesn't make much sense to be TBH.
Exactly.
The new racial is just awful and really unsupported by lore.
Aela_Dragonrider wrote: »To be honest, I don't think its strictly true to say that the stealth detection bonus is unsupported by lore. Good senses, the ability to detect things lurking in dense foliage, etc... and remain aware of your surroundings IS an extremely valuable skill for hunting. Which the Bosmer would definitely excel at. Good sense would also be a great boon to thieves.
Aela_Dragonrider wrote: »To be honest, I don't think its strictly true to say that the stealth detection bonus is unsupported by lore. Good senses, the ability to detect things lurking in dense foliage, etc... and remain aware of your surroundings IS an extremely valuable skill for hunting. Which the Bosmer would definitely excel at. Good sense would also be a great boon to thieves.
The problem though is that Khajiit have always (until ESO) had bonuses to vision ever Morrowind when racial powers were a thing.
As many people pointed out, if you used your scenario of pretending this is Alpha/Beta and someone read you the new Bosmer skills but didn't specify the race, you'd probably think they were the Khajiit powers
- Better vision/hearing
- Less fall damage
- Bonuses to dodging
That sure sounds like
- Cats have great vision vision
- Cats always land on their feet
- Cats are very agile creatures
Where as the Khajiit stealth bonus and critical damage is what I'd expect from renowned hunters who strike from the shadows and quickly dispatch their prey (i.e. Bosmer)
Aela_Dragonrider wrote: »Awesome work, @Ratzkifal!
On a sorta side note, here's a few thoughts I had on Stealth Detection and Lore.correct me if I'm wrong, but scouting rarely involves detecting HIDDEN enemies but rather hiding while scouting enemy that can even be visible but cannot be judged or counted in plain sight? like... you kinda know that enemy is on the move, but you want to scout how fast they are moving, how big is the army, etc etc... so you HIDE, close by and track them. and they are not hidden, YOU are?
stealth detection for a scout doesn't make much sense to be TBH.
Exactly.
The new racial is just awful and really unsupported by lore.
A number of people have said that the Bosmer getting Stealth Detection is contrary to and unsupported by the lore.
To be honest, I don't think its strictly true to say that the stealth detection bonus is unsupported by lore. Good senses, the ability to detect things lurking in dense foliage, etc... and remain aware of your surroundings IS an extremely valuable skill for hunting. Which the Bosmer would definitely excel at. Good sense would also be a great boon to thieves.
However, this doesn't mean its more lore-firendly than stealth.
From a gameplay perspective: If the game had some way of better implementing said heightened sense, maybe it wouldn't be so bad. But as it stands, it is horribly, awfully represented by Stealth Detection and Stealth Detection only. Which, as everyone knows and has said before, is garbage when only get 3m extra and nothing else as per the Hunter's Eye Passive. And there are plenty of situations where being able to know where all the npcs and such is simply not helpful. Like trying to pick a lock in a crowded market. Once you go for the lock, you're not watching that guard walking his beat. You're trying to loot this strongbox before he walks by again and more stealth might just mean another second or two if you misjudged his timing.
From a lore perspective: Stealth Detection is kinda lore-friendly-ish. But, as has been pointed out by so many others here, it is Stealth was and is one of the top traits presented as being integral to the Bosmer. Awesome senses? That is more to be inferred from the lore.
So, heightened sense in Bosmer (aka. Stealth Detection) is in theory Lore-Friendly, but has not been implemented in a truly useful way. And it is heavily overshadowed in lore by Stealth, so why elevate an inferred trait over an established attribute.
Anyway, just some rambling on Stealth Detection's lore friendliness.
Keep up the fight, guys!
Aela_Dragonrider wrote: »Aela_Dragonrider wrote: »To be honest, I don't think its strictly true to say that the stealth detection bonus is unsupported by lore. Good senses, the ability to detect things lurking in dense foliage, etc... and remain aware of your surroundings IS an extremely valuable skill for hunting. Which the Bosmer would definitely excel at. Good sense would also be a great boon to thieves.
The problem though is that Khajiit have always (until ESO) had bonuses to vision ever Morrowind when racial powers were a thing.
As many people pointed out, if you used your scenario of pretending this is Alpha/Beta and someone read you the new Bosmer skills but didn't specify the race, you'd probably think they were the Khajiit powers
- Better vision/hearing
- Less fall damage
- Bonuses to dodging
That sure sounds like
- Cats have great vision vision
- Cats always land on their feet
- Cats are very agile creatures
Where as the Khajiit stealth bonus and critical damage is what I'd expect from renowned hunters who strike from the shadows and quickly dispatch their prey (i.e. Bosmer)
I was just saying that Stealth Detection being given to Bosmer is not 'unsupported by lore' as others have claimed, but at the same time is also very much overshadowed in lore and woefully implemented in-game compared stealth. Making it still a terrible replacement for stealth. I'd totally take stealth over stealth detection for my Bosmer any day of the year.
And yes, if any race should have passives tied to great senses, its the Khajiit. But unless they can find a better way of doing so, no race should be saddled with it.
To the developers the detection is probably equivalent to sneak and they think they were doing us a favor. That makes way more sense than them favoring one race over another.
To the developers the detection is probably equivalent to sneak and they think they were doing us a favor. That makes way more sense than them favoring one race over another.
Sure, because the developers obviously think PvP is far more important than PvE, even though their money is in the RPGers who care more about questing, lore, buying appropriate outfits and decorating houses in their racial styles, etc.... and who represent the majority of players. How many PvE zones are there, compared to how many PvP zones are available (and are population capped, too)?
And this is the insult added to the injury. Not only do they take away a Bosmer core mechanic, but they say 'Here, have a nice PvP buff instead!' Except most people can't take advantage of it anyway, and even the PvPers are scratching their heads trying to figure out what it's good for. It's like ZOS saying, 'Look we made this wonderful, delicious hot soup for you to enjoy! Now here's your fork.... have at it!'
Thanks for nothing!
@Jaraal You are making it sound like PvP and PvE/RPG are mutually exclusive. Look, I think this is not an optimal solution either and I am not defending what we got, because I too think that the dodgeroll passive is a bit too niche if we compare it to things the other races got. Even the Altmer passive is always useful regardless of how stupid it is otherwise! But my point remains, the developers are not playing favorites. They are doing things with their best intentions and as a developer you'll always have a different perspective on things than players, which can also cause you to become blind to some issues players deal with every day. There is no reason to assume malice if incompetence is a perfectly good explanation. I would also ask you (and anyone else) to move this to PMs if you wish to continue as this is not the place for this discussion.
@BlueRaven Some of your thoughts are very interesting on what is actually going on, though I am more pessimistic on the natural outcome of things.
My guess is that ZOS is working on a system that expands on the current systems and allows all classes and races to become stealthy.
The most likely thing to happen is that racials will stack with the new system - whatever it may be. They might think that Bosmer players only want the 3m reduction buff no matter where its from and think to themselves "oh they will love this new set that will make them able to sneak and do trials without switching sets" and while that would be indeed great on one end, I think ZOS would not have chosen to remove Bosmer sneak racials if they were considering that it is important for Bosmer to have an inherent sneaking advantage.
I think it will end up as a suboptimal solution in my opinion, because it defies the point of having racials in the first place. Racial passives are meant to express something about the player character's race. From the way they have handled it I just can't rationalize ZOS taking away Bosmer stealth carelessly while at the same time being so very aware of the meaning this carries, as they would give it back later anyway through expanding racials. Them actually planning to expand the racials to include stealth and interpreting their statements as such would indeed calm my frustration about this, but even then it does not work neatly. Judging by "opening up other races" it sounds like they want to change sneak all around and not just for sneaking races. If that is the case then it still leaves the question why they didn't do it now if it would be focused on the races anyway. There are too many contradictories at work here if I assume that they will just make everything to my liking in the end.
And that is why I think ZOS was just acting carelessly and just looking at numbers a bit too much instead of lore books during their rebalance. It makes more sense, takes less assumptions, contains no malice, no evil scheme, but carelessness and miscalculation of how important a "minor flavor passive" could be. Their bigger plan might be great and all but it almost certainly won't address the issue of disregarding lore in the racial passives. And if it does, then their communication is bad for sending so many mixed signals and not talking to us.
Your train of thought doesn't check into the station because KHAJIIT KEPT THEIR RACIAL STEALTH BONUS.
There's no excuse, it's all developer bias. that's all it's ever been. Blatant Developer bias in favor of Khajiit.
@Arato My train of thought does check into the station and I would appreciate if you kept being polite in this thread. My point is that we should not assume malice if we can explain it with incompetence. To the developers the detection is probably equivalent to sneak and they think they were doing us a favor. That makes way more sense than them favoring one race over another.
It doesn't make sense though when you do something like "oh they removed it because they intend to overhaul stealth so everyone can be stealthy... but let's just leave ONE race better at it than any others while nerfing the other one"
What you're trying to say ONLY makes sense if they removed the stealth trait from both races.
Sounds like what an Imperial would say so that they could be the best stealth race instead of 2nd best!
Aela_Dragonrider wrote: »Awesome work, @Ratzkifal!
On a sorta side note, here's a few thoughts I had on Stealth Detection and Lore.correct me if I'm wrong, but scouting rarely involves detecting HIDDEN enemies but rather hiding while scouting enemy that can even be visible but cannot be judged or counted in plain sight? like... you kinda know that enemy is on the move, but you want to scout how fast they are moving, how big is the army, etc etc... so you HIDE, close by and track them. and they are not hidden, YOU are?
stealth detection for a scout doesn't make much sense to be TBH.
Exactly.
The new racial is just awful and really unsupported by lore.
A number of people have said that the Bosmer getting Stealth Detection is contrary to and unsupported by the lore.
...
Cundu_Ertur wrote: »Aela_Dragonrider wrote: »Awesome work, @Ratzkifal!
On a sorta side note, here's a few thoughts I had on Stealth Detection and Lore.correct me if I'm wrong, but scouting rarely involves detecting HIDDEN enemies but rather hiding while scouting enemy that can even be visible but cannot be judged or counted in plain sight? like... you kinda know that enemy is on the move, but you want to scout how fast they are moving, how big is the army, etc etc... so you HIDE, close by and track them. and they are not hidden, YOU are?
stealth detection for a scout doesn't make much sense to be TBH.
Exactly.
The new racial is just awful and really unsupported by lore.
A number of people have said that the Bosmer getting Stealth Detection is contrary to and unsupported by the lore.
...
If it was getting the detection IN ADDITION TO the hiding bonus, it would be fine. As you note, being perceptive would fit the scout role. However, that Bosmer are stealthy (in that they hide very well) is explicitly spelled out. So REPLACING stealth with detection is what the problem is. That's what makes the change contrary to lore. And you note this later by pointing out that the stealth bonus is explicit in the lore, while the detection is at best inferred.
Honestly, I think we're on the same page here.
Cundu_Ertur wrote: »[
Good lord, more of this "avoidance is the same as stealth" nonsense. Again: stealth is not avoidance, avoidance is not stealth. Stealth is being in a place without being noticed. Avoidance is not being in that place at all.
Detection without stealth = guard.
Detection with stealth = scout.
Stealth with or without detection = thief.
What about adding 10% movement speed in stealth instead of penetration?
What about adding 10% movement speed in stealth instead of penetration?
[*] Stealth detect has no benefits in PvE,making this an exclusively PvP oriented passive component, which is counter to the original goals (goal number 2 - universal applicability) of the racial balance change. Since stealth detection is only beneficial in PvP environments it also does not line up with the original reasoning given behind the removal of stealth - that only a player that stealths (in this case, detects other players) can benefit from this (part of the) passive. As of now, PvE players only benefit from 10% speed after dodging at the cost of three skill points and ~3.6k stamina cost, as the penetration will either be wasted due to the cap or result in a DPS loss from the lack of uptime. Returning the reduced sneak radius or a similar passive component that improves sneaking helps players across the board as everyone can choose to take advantage of that in the Overworld as well as Dungeons and PvP by sneaking past enemies or sneaking into an advantageous position to strike.
Furthermore the additional stealth detect in PvP is not in line with existing forms of detection as it reveals cloaked enemies without an indicator. It also gives away the existence of a hidden Bosmer to other sneaking enemies as it also increases the "danger" radius with the half opened eye indicator in which enemies can tell they are about to be revealed before the sneaking Bosmer is even made aware of the existence of their sneaking enemy. These intransparent and counterintuitive issues would need to be addressed and resolved if the passive was kept in its current form, which is why we would be willing to give up this component of the passive to regain improved sneaking.
Hand_Bacon wrote: »However, when you say "we" I imagine that you are referring to just those players who are here and who have stated that they want it back. When you say, "we dont NEED" I have to assume that as some of us who pvp (my personal sample size is limited) don't find it useless, just not where it should be. I only bring this up as we have no idea what the consensus is or anyway to accurately extrapolate it. I appreciate the well=meaning efforts of those like @Ratzkifal in attempting what they are doing.
I’m guessing many of you will be interested to know more about the racial balance changes. While we aren’t ready to share specific details yet, here’s a peek at the goals driving the team’s effort:When selecting a race, players should have multiple effective options for any given gameplay role. The combat power provided by each race should be more equalized. Players should feel a stronger sense of power progression through racial passives as they level up. The unique feeling and flavor each race provides should be retained and enhanced where possible, and remain faithful to established lore.
That's all for now. Feedback, as always, is welcome.
Sorry none of those are even close to true for Argonians. Also how is removing Argonian poison resistance staying faithful to established lore?
It's all over the actual in game lore from quest NPC's. Let's see we have the Bleakrock spider quest, Eastmarch Daril quest, Green-Venom-Tongue Shadowscale stating he got his name because he drank so much poison, his tongue is permanently stained green, Jee-Lar mentioning it in that poison sniffer lizard quest, and prob others I'm forgetting.
@ZOS_RobGarrett @ZOS_Gilliam care to elaborate on this epic lore fail?
What about adding 10% movement speed in stealth instead of penetration?
What about adding 10% movement speed in stealth instead of penetration?
@Tasear I am not really good at coming up with balanced numbers so I don't know if 10% would already be broken or not. That being said, as long as the 10% stacks it would be really neat and in my opinion enough to satisfy my lore consistency needs while also allowing diversity among the sneak races.
Alternative ideas for sneak passives I had are lowering the time it takes to become "hidden", lowering the detection radius while standing still (obviously not great as long as Khajiit have -3m all the time), reduced sneak cost and a few more ideas that are a bit too complext to be made as a minor passive or have not enough uses right now like dodgeroll from sneak not breaking stealth or swimming being treated like sneak (intended for Argonians but unfortunately there would be little use for this right now).
Another perk that would fit Legerdemain better than any particular race would be a burst of movement speed after being detected, similarly to how Padomaic Sprint from the DB works, except on being detected rather than using the blade of Woe.