Wood Elf/ Bosmer losing stealth passive, An open letter.

Ratzkifal

Pocket Guide to the Empire, 1st Edition/Aldmeri Dominion wrote:

"For a brief time the Colovian armies used Wood Elf archers, as in the War of Rihad two years past. The Bosmer proved to be too undisciplined and prone to desertion for further use. They would sometimes walk into the shade of a single tree and vanish. Their forest-coupling skills are remarkable. The title of their most famous poem, the Meh Ayleidion, means "The One Thousand Benefits of Hiding."

Alright. There we have it. Thanks @wedgebert ! Now we have a reliable source, the Pocket Guide to the Empire 1st Edition/Aldmeri Dominion. Unfortunately it is also the source of the One Thousand benefits of Hiding, so they technically count as only one piece of evidence. Anyone got another good excerpt that highlights how stealthy Bosmer are?

BlueViolet

Lore Book Entries such as the following make mention of Bosmer legendary stealth prowess, do they count?

War Customs of the Tribal Bosmer

Valenwood: A Study

Cundu_Ertur

The Meh Ayleidion is also mentioned in passing in the first book of A Dance in Fire, it is noted as being especially renowned.

max_only

Do you mind if I put your list on the front page?

max_only

anadandy wrote: »

@BlueRaven - to answer your earlier question about Pax East

Will we see you at our next #BethesdaDays event? Join the ESO team on March 29th and 30th at Laugh Boston & MJ O’Connors.

Play Elsweyr for the first time, win swag, and meet other members of the community! No #PAXEast badge necessary.

https://twitter.com/TESOnline/status/1098995097943760896

Hm I’m nearby, ish. Under 3 hour drive but I usually work those days... Do you really think showing up will help our cause?

Hand_Bacon

@Ratzkifal Nice work on the proposal!


I was looking at those screenshots of Bosmer descriptions and something occurred to me. Their prowess as scouts is mentioned as often as thieving. Scouting has as much to do with detecting hidden enemy assets as those in plain sight. Also, I think when people think of thieving they automatically go to the in-game mechanic of being "hidden". Pickpockets for all practical purposes don't become "invisible" rather they hide in plain sight and use their slight of hand and other tricks to achieve their purpose. Thieving is abstracted for game purposes.

I would like the buggy nature of their stealth detect fixed (i haven't experienced the bug) and the radius increased to at least that of magelight if not more.

Eiron77

Hand_Bacon wrote: »

@Ratzkifal Nice work on the proposal!


I was looking at those screenshots of Bosmer descriptions and something occurred to me. Their prowess as scouts is mentioned as often as thieving. Scouting has as much to do with detecting hidden enemy assets as those in plain sight. Also, I think when people think of thieving they automatically go to the in-game mechanic of being "hidden". Pickpockets for all practical purposes don't become "invisible" rather they hide in plain sight and use their slight of hand and other tricks to achieve their purpose. Thieving is abstracted for game purposes.

I would like the buggy nature of their stealth detect fixed (i haven't experienced the bug) and the radius increased to at least that of magelight if not more.

I was also pouring over the sources provided. While these statements are true, there are several references that drive home the art of stealth, the art of remaining hidden and unseen as the core of the Bosmer nature. This book references it being an intregal part of them becoming the Bosmer (when they split off from the original elves):

Life for many in the Aldmeri Dominion begins in Valenwood. Green, forested, filled with a wide variety of plant and animal life, and home to some of the first Elves from Old Ehlnofey.

Over time and through generations, these early settlers adapted to the woods. They learned stealth and cunning by studying their new prey. Eventually, they became Wood Elves, or Bosmer.

Then, this book below references their thievery, yes, but it makes a point that the ultimate goal of the theft is to not be noticed. That the pinnacle of their skill is not being seen:

Many raids conclude with no fighting whatsoever. It is considered the acme of skill to slip into another tribe's village and steal an item for ransom without being noticed. The larger the item, the greater the prestige. Thanks to centuries of this practice, the tribal Bosmer have become legendary for their stealth. The title of their most famous poem, the Meh Ayleidion, means "The One Thousand Benefits of Hiding."

Then there's the quote mentioned a few comments above that says: They would sometimes walk into the shade of a single tree and vanish.

So while stealth detection can be rationalized as part of their lore, it is not mentioned specifically. It's as if the lore is stating Bosmer is synonymous with Stealth. It was even integral to them becoming Bosmer. I can therefore agree with your sentiment so long as it is: Stealth first priority, thieving/scouting skills second.

EDIT: The quotes above were found in this comment by @BlueViolet :

Lore Book Entries such as the following make mention of Bosmer legendary stealth prowess, do they count?

War Customs of the Tribal Bosmer

Valenwood: A Study

BlueRaven

max_only wrote: »

anadandy wrote: »

@BlueRaven - to answer your earlier question about Pax East

Will we see you at our next #BethesdaDays event? Join the ESO team on March 29th and 30th at Laugh Boston & MJ O’Connors.

Play Elsweyr for the first time, win swag, and meet other members of the community! No #PAXEast badge necessary.

https://twitter.com/TESOnline/status/1098995097943760896

Hm I’m nearby, ish. Under 3 hour drive but I usually work those days... Do you really think showing up will help our cause?

Do I think I could show up on Friday, and by Sunday it’s fixed? Well no actually.
But they mentioned future mechanics that would open up stealth to more races (or something like that) in one of the developer notes. And I want to see if they meant it.

Putting 3 points into a racial or 3 points into another skill open to everybody has little difference to me. In games like Skyrim, while bosmers started with an advantage in sneak, eventually all the races a player could choose could stealth equally well in the end.
And I am ok with that if it’s reflected in this game as well. (*)
(I also wish in this game any race could become equally good in say spell casting or stam based combat as well after a while, but that is another topic.)

My questions if I go there are;

1) Are they REALLY going to put in system for stealth?
2) When will it happen?
3) Will Kahjits and imperials always have a stealth advantage?

And I was going to frame these questions in how disappointed I am with how the racials were handled. (And I may not be able to ask ANY questions so I have to be prepared for that.)

Even if the fix comes this summer, I think it’s unfair and just weird for bosmers to have a stealth boost, have it taken away, and then given back. The system should be in the game now.
Or if this is phase one of a long term overhaul then just tell us because quite frankly I am getting tired and frustrated just talking to this brick wall of silence.

My eso plus is set to renew mid April and a lot of what I hear about this topic will be a determining factor if I keep with this game. The stealth bonus change is really bothering me in the way it was handled.

(*) Just to clarify; I view our characters as special heroes. Touched possibly by akitosh and maybe meridia, we are able to utilize the power of the sky shards to transcend the limitations of our race to become extra powerful and unique. And thus are not limited by “what is typical” for the race.
I feel as if I am not explaining it well. But let’s just say I am not greedy with the racials. If player who chose to play a nord say, was able to acquire stealth and even the ability to take less damage from falling, I really would not really care.

BlueRaven

max_only wrote: »

anadandy wrote: »

@BlueRaven - to answer your earlier question about Pax East

Will we see you at our next #BethesdaDays event? Join the ESO team on March 29th and 30th at Laugh Boston & MJ O’Connors.

Play Elsweyr for the first time, win swag, and meet other members of the community! No #PAXEast badge necessary.

https://twitter.com/TESOnline/status/1098995097943760896

Hm I’m nearby, ish. Under 3 hour drive but I usually work those days... Do you really think showing up will help our cause?

I should also note I will be coming in from NY so I am about a 3hr drive as well.

anadandy

BlueRaven wrote: »

(There appears to be no race descriptions in the Elder Scrolls 5 Skyrim manual.)

I just fired up Skyrim to grab the Wood Elf race description from in game

BlueRaven

anadandy wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

(There appears to be no race descriptions in the Elder Scrolls 5 Skyrim manual.)

I just fired up Skyrim to grab the Wood Elf race description from in game

Thanks! I forgot about that!

wedgebert

BlueRaven wrote: »

Even if the fix comes this summer, I think it’s unfair and just weird for bosmers to have a stealth boost, have it taken away, and then given back. The system should be in the game now.
Or if this is phase one of a long term overhaul then just tell us because quite frankly I am getting tired and frustrated just talking to this brick wall of silence.

From how I've understood it, the *fix* wouldn't give Bosmer their natural stealth back, rather it'd be a separate skill line that anyone could take to boost stealth.

So even if it goes though, we'd still be the Mall Cop race in PVP and have no PVE benefit at all.

BlueRaven

wedgebert wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

Even if the fix comes this summer, I think it’s unfair and just weird for bosmers to have a stealth boost, have it taken away, and then given back. The system should be in the game now.
Or if this is phase one of a long term overhaul then just tell us because quite frankly I am getting tired and frustrated just talking to this brick wall of silence.

From how I've understood it, the *fix* wouldn't give Bosmer their natural stealth back, rather it'd be a separate skill line that anyone could take to boost stealth.

So even if it goes though, we'd still be the Mall Cop race in PVP and have no PVE benefit at all.

I know that. But if it’s under the Bosmer skill line or a “sneak” skill line has little difference to me. My main concern is (under such a system) will kahjits and imperials ALWAYS have an advantage? In other words, do they stack?

Remember kahjits and imperials are not getting that stealth bonus racial for “free”. They have to put points into it.

That’s why I don’t see it being put under a ledgerman skill line. If I played a kahjit, I may end up “paying” for the stealth bonus twice, which strikes me as unfair.

Cundu_Ertur

BlueRaven wrote: »

wedgebert wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

Even if the fix comes this summer, I think it’s unfair and just weird for bosmers to have a stealth boost, have it taken away, and then given back. The system should be in the game now.
Or if this is phase one of a long term overhaul then just tell us because quite frankly I am getting tired and frustrated just talking to this brick wall of silence.

From how I've understood it, the *fix* wouldn't give Bosmer their natural stealth back, rather it'd be a separate skill line that anyone could take to boost stealth.

So even if it goes though, we'd still be the Mall Cop race in PVP and have no PVE benefit at all.

I know that. But if it’s under the Bosmer skill line or a “sneak” skill line has little difference to me. My main concern is (under such a system) will kahjits and imperials ALWAYS have an advantage? In other words, do they stack?

Remember kahjits and imperials are not getting that stealth bonus racial for “free”. They have to put points into it.

That’s why I don’t see it being put under a ledgerman skill line. If I played a kahjit, I may end up “paying” for the stealth bonus twice, which strikes me as unfair.

I think it would stack, so they'd pay more to get more. That's why my proposal has always included a slight reduction in the Khajiit racial boost for stealth.

Jaraal

Hand_Bacon wrote: »

Scouting has as much to do with detecting hidden enemy assets as those in plain sight.

Except there are exactly zero hidden enemy assets in ESO for the vast majority of Bosmer players.

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

I think it would stack, so they'd pay more to get more. That's why my proposal has always included a slight reduction in the Khajiit racial boost for stealth.

While I love my Bosmer main, I would be totally against this as I have 4 max Leger/TG/DB Khajiit thieves, and I don't wish to see their livelihood and relevance nerfed, either.

Ratzkifal

max_only wrote: »

Do you mind if I put your list on the front page?

@max_only Of course not, but I wouldn't call it finished yet. There have been plenty of great suggestions made for further change on it.

BlueRaven

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

wedgebert wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

Even if the fix comes this summer, I think it’s unfair and just weird for bosmers to have a stealth boost, have it taken away, and then given back. The system should be in the game now.
Or if this is phase one of a long term overhaul then just tell us because quite frankly I am getting tired and frustrated just talking to this brick wall of silence.

From how I've understood it, the *fix* wouldn't give Bosmer their natural stealth back, rather it'd be a separate skill line that anyone could take to boost stealth.

So even if it goes though, we'd still be the Mall Cop race in PVP and have no PVE benefit at all.

I know that. But if it’s under the Bosmer skill line or a “sneak” skill line has little difference to me. My main concern is (under such a system) will kahjits and imperials ALWAYS have an advantage? In other words, do they stack?

Remember kahjits and imperials are not getting that stealth bonus racial for “free”. They have to put points into it.

That’s why I don’t see it being put under a ledgerman skill line. If I played a kahjit, I may end up “paying” for the stealth bonus twice, which strikes me as unfair.

I think it would stack, so they'd pay more to get more. That's why my proposal has always included a slight reduction in the Khajiit racial boost for stealth.

(Ok buckle up, this may be a long post.)

I am finally at a computer, as opposed to writing my previous posts today through my phone, so hopefully i can explain myself a bit better.

Here are the main issues I am seeing right now in regards to stealth;

1) Right now some races have bonuses to stealth and others that don't. If they implement a new "sneak" tree, or modify an existing tree. I don't foresee them suddenly changing the racials of those with a stealth bonus at the onset of a new "sneak" category. (Maybe I am being optimistic, but I would like to think they made these racials with the future "stealth" changes already in mind.)

2) The kahjits bonus to stealth;

"Feline Ambush: Increases your Critical Hit Damage and Healing by 10%. Reduces your detection radius in Stealth by 3m."

And the imperials bonus;

"When you deal Direct Damage, you restore 333 Health, Magicka, and Stamina. This effect has a 5 second cooldown. It also will reduce the cost of all abilities by 3%."

Both cost skill point to activate. (This is important later.)

3) I think there is an upper limit to what they want these abilities to stack to. We all saw that video with the 5m stealth bonus to Kahjits on the PTS. I don't think they want a natural bonus to get that far in game.

4) The infamous quote;

"Note: Reps specifically asked about the community’s concern that bosmers are trading stealth for different buffs. We were told that ZOS saw these concerns and would work on creating more options/systems for stealth gameplay outside of race. With these additions, stealth gameplay will open up to more players, and also allow bosmers to have the nice combat buff will still having avenues to be as stealthy as before."

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/456997/class-reps-update-meeting-notes-jan-30-2019/p1

The talk of "options" and "systems" implies a more profound change to stealth (and maybe other things), but this account is basically written second hand. So how much weight does this have? Are new skill lines what they meant? Or are they just going to add an armor set?

•••

If the racials DO stack with any new future skills, well then it's game over. Bosmers will ALWAYS lag behind imperials and Kahjits in stealth. And this whole racial change is truly awful, particularly from a lore perspective.

•••

But let me be optimistic and let's pretend for a moment that the stealth racial bonuses do NOT stack with other skills.

A ) So, if it were to go into a modification of the ledgerman skill line to add a stealth bonus;

A1) They could add a new sneak line on it's own with three ranks with the caveat that it does NOT stack with any racials.
This way Kahjits don't need to put points into it, as they may have already put points into their own racial. While it may be a tad confusing, at least everyone can catch up. (However, they could have done that already in this patch.)

A2) They could graft sneak onto "Improved hiding" (for example) in the ledgeman skill line. (Also something they could have done this patch.) But a khajit player looking for the reduced stamina cost to stealth would be also paying for the dead weight of the improved stealth which does not seem right.

•••

B ) Expanded racials.

A radical idea, but what if they were to expand the amount of racials every race gets. These racials can be more universal, adding magcika to stamina races, etc. Suddenly bosmers (and nords and orcs) have options for stealth. Bretons and Altmer have stamina options, etc.

I HIGHLY doubt this will happen but I can't 100% rule it out. And AGAIN this should have been implemented this patch. The reason I bring this up as one of the stated goals was to "open up" the races for additional roles, but that did not come across very well in this patch. So maybe there is something more coming down the pike.

C ) They actually implement a new "sneak" skill tree that is coming in Elsweyr. This may be under a NDA at the moment, which is why they are not talking about it, but this option is strengthen by the "options" and "systems" cryptic remarks. It has been noted that Elsweyr is only implementing a new class, as opposed to previous chapters that added profound changes to the game (arenas in Morrowind as an example). Maybe adding a "sneak" tree is only one amongst many skill trees that they are adding and they just have not told us yet because "NDA".

•••

The whole thing is just overly complex and confusing. The removal of stealth from Bosmers appears to me to be a simple case of "Well, Kahjits have it, so lets do something different with Bosmers", and not actually driven by any actual gameplay NEED to make them different. Right now the reasoning appears to be that Bosmers don't have a stealth bonus is because Kahjits do. Which is both infuriating and strange.

To me right now, if this is truly a huge overall systems change and we are only seeing the first piece of it, how does a future stealth bonus "click in" to the puzzle piece of the current patch? Trying to "graft" a fix onto this is just not something I want to do. Before this whole thing, I would come on to the forums only to ask a quick question, or check some patch notes and move on. And not to be mean, I WANT to go back to that. I want this to just have a conclusion.

KMarble

Ratzkifal wrote: »

@KMarble @Eiron77 Changed it. Tell me what you think.

I like it.

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Next we need to go in depth but not make it too complicated about the lore. They have been described as sneak thieves in every game since Arena.
We have the famous poem A thousand benefits of hiding.
If we could get a source from the imperial legion or any "official" imperial source on Bosmer being thieves and sneaky, then we'd have a great example to back up our claims as you can trust the empire whenever it comes down to being efficient and knowing their stuff.
I vaguely remember one source where it says that Bosmer are the best archers on tamriel but aren't as easily drilled and disciplined than others or something, which is why Bosmer aren't common among the archers of the legion.

You don't even have to go outside ESO to see it mentioned. Tthere are at least 3 quests in this game that were created around the concept of the right of theft.
- The first one is given to us by a guy who's hanging around Elden Root near the miggens - he stole a bow, invoked the right of theft, but his partner in crime took the bow and fled. You need to bring the bow back.
- the second is in - I think - Greenshade. You're hired by a loan shark to get some money back from a bosmer. It turns out the thief who took the money is asking for something unexpected when they invoke the right of theft,
- then there is one that is tied up to the main questline for AD, and it's called "Right of Theft".

The case could be made that two of the three are side quests and can be ignored, but the third example is part of the main quest for AD. At some point the developers thought that was a defining characteristic of wood elves and used it as the reason for those quests to exist. Akin to using the lore around the Hist on quests related to Argonians.

ETA: if memory serves, in every single one of the quests I mentioned above, there is a dialogue tree that allows the player to know more about the right of theft.

Linaleah

correct me if I'm wrong, but scouting rarely involves detecting HIDDEN enemies but rather hiding while scouting enemy that can even be visible but cannot be judged or counted in plain sight? like... you kinda know that enemy is on the move, but you want to scout how fast they are moving, how big is the army, etc etc... so you HIDE, close by and track them. and they are not hidden, YOU are?

stealth detection for a scout doesn't make much sense to be TBH.

BlueRaven

Linaleah wrote: »

correct me if I'm wrong, but scouting rarely involves detecting HIDDEN enemies but rather hiding while scouting enemy that can even be visible but cannot be judged or counted in plain sight? like... you kinda know that enemy is on the move, but you want to scout how fast they are moving, how big is the army, etc etc... so you HIDE, close by and track them. and they are not hidden, YOU are?

stealth detection for a scout doesn't make much sense to be TBH.

Exactly.

The new racial is just awful and really unsupported by lore.

KMarble

Hand_Bacon wrote: »

@Ratzkifal Nice work on the proposal!
I was looking at those screenshots of Bosmer descriptions and something occurred to me. Their prowess as scouts is mentioned as often as thieving. Scouting has as much to do with detecting hidden enemy assets as those in plain sight.

Scouting, in game, is done by going to point X, watching an animation and coming back to the board to get your reward. There is absolutely no mechanics involved, and we don't actually get to see anything worth the trip when we get to the objective.

I know because that was what I did to get the tickets on the mid-year-in-the-beginning-of-the-year festival. You don't even get transmute crystals for it.

Hand_Bacon wrote: »

Also, I think when people think of thieving they automatically go to the in-game mechanic of being "hidden". Pickpockets for all practical purposes don't become "invisible" rather they hide in plain sight and use their slight of hand and other tricks to achieve their purpose. Thieving is abstracted for game purposes.

I would like the buggy nature of their stealth detect fixed (i haven't experienced the bug) and the radius increased to at least that of magelight if not more.

As someone who IRL is as short as a short wood elf, let me tell you this. I can go through a crowd without being noticed all.the.time. I can observe other people without being "seen" all.the.time.

Crouching was the way the devs chose to display this ease (for lack of a better word) that short people have to go undetected, as you said. BUT! It is in the nature of short real life people to have an easier time going undetected, and I suspect it's the reason they made wood elves short in the first place.

Crouching in game does NOT make the char invisible, btw.

Ratzkifal

@BlueRaven Some of your thoughts are very interesting on what is actually going on, though I am more pessimistic on the natural outcome of things.

My guess is that ZOS is working on a system that expands on the current systems and allows all classes and races to become stealthy.

The most likely thing to happen is that racials will stack with the new system - whatever it may be. They might think that Bosmer players only want the 3m reduction buff no matter where its from and think to themselves "oh they will love this new set that will make them able to sneak and do trials without switching sets" and while that would be indeed great on one end, I think ZOS would not have chosen to remove Bosmer sneak racials if they were considering that it is important for Bosmer to have an inherent sneaking advantage.
I think it will end up as a suboptimal solution in my opinion, because it defies the point of having racials in the first place. Racial passives are meant to express something about the player character's race. From the way they have handled it I just can't rationalize ZOS taking away Bosmer stealth carelessly while at the same time being so very aware of the meaning this carries, as they would give it back later anyway through expanding racials. Them actually planning to expand the racials to include stealth and interpreting their statements as such would indeed calm my frustration about this, but even then it does not work neatly. Judging by "opening up other races" it sounds like they want to change sneak all around and not just for sneaking races. If that is the case then it still leaves the question why they didn't do it now if it would be focused on the races anyway. There are too many contradictories at work here if I assume that they will just make everything to my liking in the end.

And that is why I think ZOS was just acting carelessly and just looking at numbers a bit too much instead of lore books during their rebalance. It makes more sense, takes less assumptions, contains no malice, no evil scheme, but carelessness and miscalculation of how important a "minor flavor passive" could be. Their bigger plan might be great and all but it almost certainly won't address the issue of disregarding lore in the racial passives. And if it does, then their communication is bad for sending so many mixed signals and not talking to us.

BlueRaven

@Ratzkifal What you said is probably true, I am just hoping it isn't. I really hope there actually is a grand overall plan for these bewildering changes.

The big tripping point for me is the kahjit racial and how this fits with any future plans (if they actually exist). And yes there is a lot of contradictory statements floating around about this.

I am hoping that the trip to Pax East will clear some of this up which brings me back to my post I said earlier today;

"1) Are they REALLY going to put in system for stealth?
2) When will it happen?
3) Will Kahjits and imperials always have a stealth advantage?"

I am hoping I can finally get some answers.

Ratzkifal

I collected the material we wanted to include for now before we can start writing on the lore argument. This is still WIP. I also added spoilers to make the post more easily viewed and reduce the wall of text.

• We want more diverse race choices for characters that are focused on justice interactions. Having Khajiit be the only one with a sneaking advantage is very limiting.
• Stealth detect has no benefits in PvE,
  making this an exclusively PvP oriented passive component, which is counter to the original goals (goal number 2 - universal applicability) of the racial balance change. Since stealth detection is only beneficial in PvP environments it also does not line up with the original reasoning given behind the removal of stealth - that only a player that stealths (in this case, detects other players) can benefit from this (part of the) passive. As of now, PvE players only benefit from 10% speed after dodging at the cost of three skill points and ~3.6k stamina cost, as the penetration will either be wasted due to the cap or result in a DPS loss from the lack of uptime. Returning the reduced sneak radius or a similar passive component that improves sneaking helps players across the board as everyone can choose to take advantage of that in the Overworld as well as Dungeons and PvP by sneaking past enemies or sneaking into an advantageous position to strike.
  Furthermore the additional stealth detect in PvP is not in line with existing forms of detection as it reveals cloaked enemies without an indicator. It also gives away the existence of a hidden Bosmer to other sneaking enemies as it also increases the "danger" radius with the half opened eye indicator in which enemies can tell they are about to be revealed before the sneaking Bosmer is even made aware of the existence of their sneaking enemy. These intransparent and counterintuitive issues would need to be addressed and resolved if the passive was kept in its current form, which is why we would be willing to give up this component of the passive to regain improved sneaking.
• Doesn't fit lore
  Bosmer have been described as great sneak thieves in every Elder Scrolls game starting with Arena.
  Elder Scrolls 1 Arena
  
  Elder Scrolls 2 Daggerfall
  
  Elder Scrolls 3 Morrowind
  
  Elder Scrolls 4 Oblivion
  
  Elder Scrolls 5 Skyrim
  
  Elder Scrolls Online
  

  BlueViolet wrote: »

  
  War Customs of the Tribal Bosmer
  
  Valenwood: A Study
  

  
  
  
  

BlueRaven

@Ratzkifal Thats pretty great! Love it!

Eiron77

@Ratzkifal glad you're continuing to improve it. Looks great and definitely much easier to read with the spoilers.

Cundu_Ertur

Hand_Bacon wrote: »

Scouting has as much to do with detecting hidden enemy assets as those in plain sight. Also, I think when people think of thieving they automatically go to the in-game mechanic of being "hidden". Pickpockets for all practical purposes don't become "invisible" rather they hide in plain sight and use their slight of hand and other tricks to achieve their purpose. Thieving is abstracted for game purposes.

Good lord, more of this "avoidance is the same as stealth" nonsense. Again: stealth is not avoidance, avoidance is not stealth. Stealth is being in a place without being noticed. Avoidance is not being in that place at all.

Your observation about detecting things being a good thing for scouting is, however, true; but it is not requisite. More important is that a scout needs to be in the place to be able to see things without being seen themselves.

Detection without stealth = guard.
Detection with stealth = scout.
Stealth with or without detection = thief.

Cundu_Ertur

Jaraal wrote: »

Hand_Bacon wrote: »

Scouting has as much to do with detecting hidden enemy assets as those in plain sight.

Except there are exactly zero hidden enemy assets in ESO for the vast majority of Bosmer players.

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

I think it would stack, so they'd pay more to get more. That's why my proposal has always included a slight reduction in the Khajiit racial boost for stealth.

While I love my Bosmer main, I would be totally against this as I have 4 max Leger/TG/DB Khajiit thieves, and I don't wish to see their livelihood and relevance nerfed, either.

I'm guessing you missed it, or it was a while ago. My proposal was that Khajiit would get 2m from their racial, Bosmer 1m from their racial, and all races could get 2m from legerdemain. Khajiit would end up with 4m, Bosmer 3m, everyone else the basic 2m. Your cats would get a 1m from my proposal.

Cundu_Ertur

BlueRaven wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

wedgebert wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

Even if the fix comes this summer, I think it’s unfair and just weird for bosmers to have a stealth boost, have it taken away, and then given back. The system should be in the game now.
Or if this is phase one of a long term overhaul then just tell us because quite frankly I am getting tired and frustrated just talking to this brick wall of silence.

From how I've understood it, the *fix* wouldn't give Bosmer their natural stealth back, rather it'd be a separate skill line that anyone could take to boost stealth.

So even if it goes though, we'd still be the Mall Cop race in PVP and have no PVE benefit at all.

I know that. But if it’s under the Bosmer skill line or a “sneak” skill line has little difference to me. My main concern is (under such a system) will kahjits and imperials ALWAYS have an advantage? In other words, do they stack?

Remember kahjits and imperials are not getting that stealth bonus racial for “free”. They have to put points into it.

That’s why I don’t see it being put under a ledgerman skill line. If I played a kahjit, I may end up “paying” for the stealth bonus twice, which strikes me as unfair.

I think it would stack, so they'd pay more to get more. That's why my proposal has always included a slight reduction in the Khajiit racial boost for stealth.

(Ok buckle up, this may be a long post.)

I am finally at a computer, as opposed to writing my previous posts today through my phone, so hopefully i can explain myself a bit better.

Here are the main issues I am seeing right now in regards to stealth;

1) Right now some races have bonuses to stealth and others that don't. If they implement a new "sneak" tree, or modify an existing tree. I don't foresee them suddenly changing the racials of those with a stealth bonus at the onset of a new "sneak" category. (Maybe I am being optimistic, but I would like to think they made these racials with the future "stealth" changes already in mind.)

2) The kahjits bonus to stealth;

"Feline Ambush: Increases your Critical Hit Damage and Healing by 10%. Reduces your detection radius in Stealth by 3m."

And the imperials bonus;

"When you deal Direct Damage, you restore 333 Health, Magicka, and Stamina. This effect has a 5 second cooldown. It also will reduce the cost of all abilities by 3%."

Both cost skill point to activate. (This is important later.)

3) I think there is an upper limit to what they want these abilities to stack to. We all saw that video with the 5m stealth bonus to Kahjits on the PTS. I don't think they want a natural bonus to get that far in game.

4) The infamous quote;

"Note: Reps specifically asked about the community’s concern that bosmers are trading stealth for different buffs. We were told that ZOS saw these concerns and would work on creating more options/systems for stealth gameplay outside of race. With these additions, stealth gameplay will open up to more players, and also allow bosmers to have the nice combat buff will still having avenues to be as stealthy as before."

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/456997/class-reps-update-meeting-notes-jan-30-2019/p1

The talk of "options" and "systems" implies a more profound change to stealth (and maybe other things), but this account is basically written second hand. So how much weight does this have? Are new skill lines what they meant? Or are they just going to add an armor set?

•••

If the racials DO stack with any new future skills, well then it's game over. Bosmers will ALWAYS lag behind imperials and Kahjits in stealth. And this whole racial change is truly awful, particularly from a lore perspective.

•••

But let me be optimistic and let's pretend for a moment that the stealth racial bonuses do NOT stack with other skills.

A ) So, if it were to go into a modification of the ledgerman skill line to add a stealth bonus;

A1) They could add a new sneak line on it's own with three ranks with the caveat that it does NOT stack with any racials.
This way Kahjits don't need to put points into it, as they may have already put points into their own racial. While it may be a tad confusing, at least everyone can catch up. (However, they could have done that already in this patch.)

A2) They could graft sneak onto "Improved hiding" (for example) in the ledgeman skill line. (Also something they could have done this patch.) But a khajit player looking for the reduced stamina cost to stealth would be also paying for the dead weight of the improved stealth which does not seem right.

•••

B ) Expanded racials.

A radical idea, but what if they were to expand the amount of racials every race gets. These racials can be more universal, adding magcika to stamina races, etc. Suddenly bosmers (and nords and orcs) have options for stealth. Bretons and Altmer have stamina options, etc.

I HIGHLY doubt this will happen but I can't 100% rule it out. And AGAIN this should have been implemented this patch. The reason I bring this up as one of the stated goals was to "open up" the races for additional roles, but that did not come across very well in this patch. So maybe there is something more coming down the pike.

C ) They actually implement a new "sneak" skill tree that is coming in Elsweyr. This may be under a NDA at the moment, which is why they are not talking about it, but this option is strengthen by the "options" and "systems" cryptic remarks. It has been noted that Elsweyr is only implementing a new class, as opposed to previous chapters that added profound changes to the game (arenas in Morrowind as an example). Maybe adding a "sneak" tree is only one amongst many skill trees that they are adding and they just have not told us yet because "NDA".

•••

The whole thing is just overly complex and confusing. The removal of stealth from Bosmers appears to me to be a simple case of "Well, Kahjits have it, so lets do something different with Bosmers", and not actually driven by any actual gameplay NEED to make them different. Right now the reasoning appears to be that Bosmers don't have a stealth bonus is because Kahjits do. Which is both infuriating and strange.

To me right now, if this is truly a huge overall systems change and we are only seeing the first piece of it, how does a future stealth bonus "click in" to the puzzle piece of the current patch? Trying to "graft" a fix onto this is just not something I want to do. Before this whole thing, I would come on to the forums only to ask a quick question, or check some patch notes and move on. And not to be mean, I WANT to go back to that. I want this to just have a conclusion.

TBH I think you hit the nail on the head with "The removal of stealth from Bosmers appears to me to be a simple case of "Well, Kahjits have it, so lets do something different with Bosmers", and not actually driven by any actual gameplay NEED to make them different. Right now the reasoning appears to be that Bosmers don't have a stealth bonus is because Kahjits do. Which is both infuriating and strange."

The issue I have with what they seem to be planning is, as you also noted, Bosmer would forever lag behind Khajiit and Imperials. Which is crap. At least one of the devs has their panties in a bunch over Bosmer stealth for no good reason at all.

Eiron77

@BlueRaven
While I agree with the points you made, about the upcoming stealth changes and how they might equalize every race in stealth in the end... I don't know if that would be enough to bring me back. (I know you already know these points I make below, but bear with me).

My main issue is how ZOS appeared to be passive aggressive about the wood elf concerns of the Stealthy removal. The first response they made was earlier in the PTS and they actually stated they heard our concerns, but their proposed resolution--while a great idea and needed for a long time--glossed over the actual point of our concerns (which is pretty well summarized by @Ratzkifal ).

So we continued to voice our complaints throughout the rest of the PTS. They already showed they were listening to feedback, so my best assumption would be that they continued to know the mass dissent from their changes to Wood Elves. Our main concern was lore. So in the final change they made to Hunters Eye, they rewrote it's description to fit their new concept of the racial. It was underhanded, a stab in the back, and came off as passive-aggressive to me. That may not have been their intent, but the complete lack of any other response gives me no cause to believe otherwise.

I have so many other issues with Hunters Eye as I've laid out in many comments on these forums [snip]. And while I don't expect there to be an apology, I think at this time, the only thing that can bring me back is a return to a racial passive that benefits wood elves' ability to sneak, thats in line with their lore, and sets them apart in gameplay mechanics as natural sneak-thieves. It doesn't have to be the same as before.

The reason this would bring me back is, this whole issue is just a small thing and really not that important in life. But if a restaurant changes their recipe and I don't like the new taste, I'll stop eating there. However, if I later hear that they went back to the old recipe, I'll go return. If it tastes the way it used to, I'll be content as all I wanted was to enjoy the that familiar taste when I wanted. Doesn't matter if the restaurant was a bit stubborn about customer feedback... All I want is to enjoy that particular dish again. And the chef adding a great side dish isn't going to bring that satisfaction back.

I like my Bosmer sneak-thief. Being able to play GTA in a fantasy setting MMO is my ultimate pass time. But character concept is very important to me. And so my character must feel sneaker than most. It doesnt anymore. I am also a completionist and having 1 of 3 racials sitting there unused when it could be so much better, is upsetting to me. My character doesnt feel the same anymore and my preferred passtime no longer brings satisfaction. I don't think I can be satisfied until my Bosmer itself--no outside influence--feels sneaky again.

But we'll see what happens. I'll continue to watch news about this and see if the new stealth changes surprise me. But given their seeming nonchalant attitude in this whole ordeal, that side dish has a very high expectation to win me over.

[edited for bashing]