Hand_Bacon wrote: »A security guard at a museum does not nearly have the same skill sets as the cat (lol) burglar attempting to steal the paintings.
Your laughable claims of "It takes a thief to catch one" would have a lot more weight if Bosmers had ANY skill that would help them be thieves. Hint: They do not.
The problem is that they were cat burglars and now they are museum guards.
The fact that you STILL think that they are equivalent at this point is just bizarre.
You went to the museum to get this crappy analogy? lol I'm sorry but you're taking the scenic route to avoid substance.
They do have skill at avoidance, just as much as anyone else outside of Khajiits.
The fact you can't see deeper than this is just bizarre.
EDIT: besides, aren't you the one playing? have you no skill? And its not my claim, its a 17th century saying.
Hand_Bacon wrote: »Cundu_Ertur wrote: »Avoidance isn't stealth. Not being seen is stealth. Stealth is when you are close enough to someone where they should be able to see you but they can't. Detection without stealth is a guard's skill. Detection + stealth is a scout's skill.
Avoidance is the buff you want back. Avoidance is stealth.
"the act or action of proceeding furtively, secretly, or imperceptibly"
here are some synonyms: clandestine, sneak, sneaking, sneaky, stealthy, surreptitious, undercover
Avoidance? "an act or practice of avoiding"
Detection is part of that stealth game. To say it isn't would only take into account a static world of NPC guards. We're talking pvp here where the world is dynamic and stealth depends on detection and avoidance.
When I use a word, it means just what I choose it to mean——neither more nor less.
Bosmers have legendary stealth skills and that means they stealth the same as nords or orcs to you? Nice reasoning!!!! lol L2Lore (And its not my claim, its a 20th century saying.)
Since you entertain point 2, consider the following as well. The proposed sorc shield change in Murkmire was defended by the devs with the same argument "we have something coming for them and will buff sorc damage as compensation at a later date". But the community felt that it was not the right move by the developers to break something here and now and leave it broken for half a year until the redeeming change would arrive. The outrage and reps convinced ZOS that it wasn't time for the change and they delayed it until the day they are ready to roll out the compensation along with it.
Similarly I think it was not a good call from ZOS to remove stealth from Bosmer for at least a quarter of a year without a redeeming change. While this is not nearly as game breaking as the shield change was, it is the same principle at work that the community has already rejected. I also doubt that introducing stealth boni outside of the racial passives to make up for it, addresses the issue many of us have, but that is speculation for now.
Hand_Bacon wrote: »Cundu_Ertur wrote: »Avoidance isn't stealth. Not being seen is stealth. Stealth is when you are close enough to someone where they should be able to see you but they can't. Detection without stealth is a guard's skill. Detection + stealth is a scout's skill.
Avoidance is the buff you want back. Avoidance is stealth.
"the act or action of proceeding furtively, secretly, or imperceptibly"
here are some synonyms: clandestine, sneak, sneaking, sneaky, stealthy, surreptitious, undercover
Avoidance? "an act or practice of avoiding"
Detection is part of that stealth game. To say it isn't would only take into account a static world of NPC guards. We're talking pvp here where the world is dynamic and stealth depends on detection and avoidance.
Hand_Bacon wrote: »Detection is part of that stealth game. To say it isn't would only take into account a static world of NPC guards. We're talking pvp here where the world is dynamic and stealth depends on detection and avoidance.
Hand_Bacon wrote: »A security guard at a museum does not nearly have the same skill sets as the cat (lol) burglar attempting to steal the paintings.
Your laughable claims of "It takes a thief to catch one" would have a lot more weight if Bosmers had ANY skill that would help them be thieves. Hint: They do not.
The problem is that they were cat burglars and now they are museum guards.
The fact that you STILL think that they are equivalent at this point is just bizarre.
You went to the museum to get this crappy analogy? lol I'm sorry but you're taking the scenic route to avoid substance.
Hand_Bacon wrote: »
They do have skill at avoidance, just as much as anyone else outside of Khajiits.
The fact you can't see deeper than this is just bizarre.
Fata1moose wrote: »I'm actually surprised to see that this change caused more of a storm than the Dark Elf flame damage loss. Those were the only two changes i have a problem with so I hope they address both.
On one hand, all of this fighting might get ZOS to look at this thread again to read our feedback
On the other hand, all of this fighting might get this thread locked since we've already been warned once, ontop of the fact that we've gone from constructive feedback to arguing if stealth detect is useful at all. (Hint: It's not. It's really, really not)
Maybe calm down, so we can keep our argument civil so that ZOS might take us seriously.
You are very right. However on page 18 it is getting difficult to come up with things that have not already been said. What we can do and haven't done yet is start collecting our arguments in a simple and easy to grasp (rant free) format that we can then hand people like the reps and the devs.
Cundu_Ertur wrote: »Hand_Bacon wrote: »
I think the problem is that you're looking at it as if the passive is one thing, and that to change one aspect of it would be to change the whole. I see it as 3 different traits that could be modified separately.
Can we just ask them to take our 10% reduced fall damage in exchange for giving back the 3m reduction? Seems more fit for Khajiits always landing on their feet anyways.
I don't know if I really want to give up that increased ability to find other non bosmer/khajiit stealthers first.
My suggestion, IF we need to be different from the Khajiit was:
1) Put 2m hiding bonus in legerdemain in .5 increments in the Improved Hiding skill. Everyone would be able to get 2m hiding bonus that way. Also, provide some way to level legerdemain that didn't involve picking locks or pockets -- maybe tied to doing damage out of stealth or something.
2) Reduce the Khajiit bonus to a max of 2m, but they'd otherwise remain the same. Scale would be .5/1/2 or something like that.
3) Leave Hunter's Eye alone (even keeping the detested detection bonus), but give Bosmer a 1m hiding bonus in their 'free' passive.
Bosmer would start the game being able to hide a bit better than anyone else, but if they don't level their skill in legerdemain they get left behind by everyone else. Khajiit would eventually be the best, but they'd have to work at it. In the end, all races would be able to get a 2m bonus, those Bosmer who work at it would have a 3m bonus, Those Khajiit who work at it would have a 4m bonus. Everyone wins, no-one loses.
Hand_Bacon wrote: »So you still don't think being stealthy is equally detecting before being detected?
EDIT: To illuminate, what if everyone, NPC's included, were stealthed?
Hand_Bacon wrote: »Hand_Bacon wrote: »Of course its not the same in the sense its not the same game mechanic, but it is related as in part of the same ability. Especially in Cyro.
My sorc casted magelight! I am stealthy now!!!!!! - Said nobody ever.Hand_Bacon wrote: »Of course its not the same in the sense its not the same game mechanic, but it is related as in part of the same ability. Especially in Cyro.
My sorc casted magelight! I am stealthy now!!!!!! - Said nobody ever.
Actually, by casting that ability they were partaking in the stealth game. However you know that your example is ridiculous and you're hoping to avoid the nuance of the subject.
If 2 players are in stealth and both are equal in avoidance and one is greater in detection. Their aim is to find and destroy each other, who would be the greater at stealth?
“In the future there maybe be a reason for detect stealth in pve.” Then change it in the future, now as we are today, detect stealth has no benefit. They want to sell a game today. Today the game does not have stealth enemies in pve. Today.
What ifs
In the future maybe
That’s the only defense to the simple question I posed.
If one has to change the entirety of the universe and space time to validate your side, then you’re doing it wrong.
“What if enemies in pve stealthed/crouched?” Well they don’t. Full stop.
“In the future there maybe be a reason for detect stealth in pve.” Then change it in the future, now as we are today, detect stealth has no benefit. They want to sell a game today. Today the game does not have stealth enemies in pve. Today.
I am hoping at the Pax East event they have the "fix" they claimed was coming. I am definitely going, it's just a matter of what day.
Basically I can spend $200 on a train ticket that will get me there and back on the same day. Or I can drive and spend the night before and after at my relatives house that is roughly 1/2 way there.
So I am trying to figure out what I am going to do. (And on what day.)
Maybe I will go on the first day? And if I missed something I will spend an extra day up there? hmmm
JayAstrophel wrote: »If we should make a list, here's my suggestions based on what I have read:
- stealth detect is useless in PvE, many people don't play PvP at all so get no use from this trait
- Bosmer were made to be thieves and Imperials are now better at thieving - doesn't make sense
- Doesn't fit lore
add on/change as you will
Sylvermynx wrote: »I am hoping at the Pax East event they have the "fix" they claimed was coming. I am definitely going, it's just a matter of what day.
Basically I can spend $200 on a train ticket that will get me there and back on the same day. Or I can drive and spend the night before and after at my relatives house that is roughly 1/2 way there.
So I am trying to figure out what I am going to do. (And on what day.)
Maybe I will go on the first day? And if I missed something I will spend an extra day up there? hmmm
Blue, do whatever is safest considering the weather.... Please, be safe.
Sylvermynx wrote: »Eh, I don't play sneak thief on my Bosmer. It's not a playstyle I personally enjoy.
However - the basic trait of Bosmer IS stealth. And yet... ZOS chose to "special" pvp yet again. THAT is the problem. Everything ZOS does is to stroke pvp.
You know, I'm really enjoying this game. And I'm spending a lot of RLD on it. But.... if this trend doesn't go away.... I will be going away. Which is sad because there's nothing else out there to play - yeah, I know y'all will post suggestions for stupid phone games. I don't DO that crap. I do TES. Too bad I don't do WoW any more, or RIFT....
Guess I'll be going back to Skyrim. I'd almost rather go back to Oblivion at least to start.... but I can't deal with the potato faces.
I've said it before, I'll say it again: I believe that this change impacts an area of gameplay far more than any other change they've made. Some races do more damage now, some have more health, some have less sustain, but some classes got genuinely good buffs (nords) while some were downgraded as far as, say, trail boss DPS, if only slightly.
The change to bosmer stealth effects the feel of a major aspect of the game. Us Bosmer are used to being stealthy. Myself, every time I try to do sneaky stuff on my bosmer main now, it feels alien and awful compared to last week thanks to this change. Stealth used to be fun, now it's frustrating. It's possible to do, yes, but so is magicka dps on a redguard. Possible, but gimped hard.
I badly want to stay bosmer, but the khajit stealth racial is almost enough to make me switch. I've grown attached to this elf since before Morrowind released, and seeing her grow fur and a tail just to get back something I had last week is almost insulting.
Changing Bosmer's stealth reduction to stealth detection did not solve any problems. But it created problems for likely thousands of players who thoughtfully chose Bosmer for their sneaky characters years ago.
.
"Stealth is not a universal mechanic" = Replace it with something even less universal