Wood Elf/ Bosmer losing stealth passive, An open letter.

BlueRaven

Hand_Bacon wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

A security guard at a museum does not nearly have the same skill sets as the cat (lol) burglar attempting to steal the paintings.

Your laughable claims of "It takes a thief to catch one" would have a lot more weight if Bosmers had ANY skill that would help them be thieves. Hint: They do not.

The problem is that they were cat burglars and now they are museum guards.

The fact that you STILL think that they are equivalent at this point is just bizarre.

You went to the museum to get this crappy analogy? lol I'm sorry but you're taking the scenic route to avoid substance.

They do have skill at avoidance, just as much as anyone else outside of Khajiits.

The fact you can't see deeper than this is just bizarre.


EDIT: besides, aren't you the one playing? have you no skill? And its not my claim, its a 17th century saying.

Outside of Kahjits and Imperials you mean.

Bosmers have legendary stealth skills and that means they stealth the same as nords or orcs to you? Nice reasoning!!!! lol L2Lore (And its not my claim, its a 20th century saying.)

Cundu_Ertur

Hand_Bacon wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Avoidance isn't stealth. Not being seen is stealth. Stealth is when you are close enough to someone where they should be able to see you but they can't. Detection without stealth is a guard's skill. Detection + stealth is a scout's skill.

Avoidance is the buff you want back. Avoidance is stealth.
"the act or action of proceeding furtively, secretly, or imperceptibly"
here are some synonyms: clandestine, sneak, sneaking, sneaky, stealthy, surreptitious, undercover
Avoidance? "an act or practice of avoiding"

Detection is part of that stealth game. To say it isn't would only take into account a static world of NPC guards. We're talking pvp here where the world is dynamic and stealth depends on detection and avoidance.

No, avoidance isn't the buff I want back, I want "clandestine, sneak, sneaking, sneaky, stealthy, surreptitious, undercover" back. Avoidance isn't a synonym for stealth, stealth isn't a synonym for avoidance. They are different concepts.

Pop quiz time, who was it who said:

When I use a word, it means just what I choose it to mean——neither more nor less.

I wonder how that could be relevant.

Anyways, the situation you have been describing is ONLY relevant when both parties are in stealth. However that is NEVER the case outside of Cyrodiil, and very seldom the case even there so far as my own limited experience has shown. Counter-stealth provides an advantage only when the enemy is also in stealth (not invisible and not in cloak, either). Stealth provides an advantage regardless of whether the enemy is in stealth, invisible, under cloak, or none of those. Two different outcomes, because they are two different things.

And "we're" not talking about Cyrodiil here. I'm talking about the whole game, not just Cyrodiil.

Hand_Bacon

BlueRaven wrote: »

Bosmers have legendary stealth skills and that means they stealth the same as nords or orcs to you? Nice reasoning!!!! lol L2Lore (And its not my claim, its a 20th century saying.)

You mean aside from the stealth buff in the form of stealth detection? Your claim and the saying are 2 different things. You are making a claim by using that..."saying". Isn't that more of a 21st century vernacular?

Hand_Bacon

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Since you entertain point 2, consider the following as well. The proposed sorc shield change in Murkmire was defended by the devs with the same argument "we have something coming for them and will buff sorc damage as compensation at a later date". But the community felt that it was not the right move by the developers to break something here and now and leave it broken for half a year until the redeeming change would arrive. The outrage and reps convinced ZOS that it wasn't time for the change and they delayed it until the day they are ready to roll out the compensation along with it.
Similarly I think it was not a good call from ZOS to remove stealth from Bosmer for at least a quarter of a year without a redeeming change. While this is not nearly as game breaking as the shield change was, it is the same principle at work that the community has already rejected. I also doubt that introducing stealth boni outside of the racial passives to make up for it, addresses the issue many of us have, but that is speculation for now.

I can see that as an apt comparison. I think I mentioned somewhere something similar to the effect that if it was for something yet coming I find it interesting that they'd do it now before the applicable content. The only reason, if any of this speculation is true, is that they wanted this patch/update to cover all foreseeable racial restructuring.

EDIT: @Ratzkifal Off to bed, the wife and kids are even less forgiving then these forums are to opposing viewpoints. I'll be interested to read anymore you have to write when I catch up in the morning.

JayAstrophel

Hand_Bacon wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Avoidance isn't stealth. Not being seen is stealth. Stealth is when you are close enough to someone where they should be able to see you but they can't. Detection without stealth is a guard's skill. Detection + stealth is a scout's skill.

Avoidance is the buff you want back. Avoidance is stealth.
"the act or action of proceeding furtively, secretly, or imperceptibly"
here are some synonyms: clandestine, sneak, sneaking, sneaky, stealthy, surreptitious, undercover
Avoidance? "an act or practice of avoiding"

Detection is part of that stealth game. To say it isn't would only take into account a static world of NPC guards. We're talking pvp here where the world is dynamic and stealth depends on detection and avoidance.

No offense but I think a lot of people aren’t talking about PvP at all. A ton of people don’t enjoy it and don’t play it. In a PvE setting, which seems to be the main point of this thread, there is no point in stealth detection and therefore detection in PvE makes a Bosmer no more sneaky no matter how you look at it.

Aela_Dragonrider

a

Hand_Bacon wrote: »

Detection is part of that stealth game. To say it isn't would only take into account a static world of NPC guards. We're talking pvp here where the world is dynamic and stealth depends on detection and avoidance.

But what if you don't do pvp? My thief does just pve, where detection is useless because no enemies use stealth. If stealth is a game of detection and avoidance, where is the fun if one of them doesn't show up to play?

Hand_Bacon wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

A security guard at a museum does not nearly have the same skill sets as the cat (lol) burglar attempting to steal the paintings.

Your laughable claims of "It takes a thief to catch one" would have a lot more weight if Bosmers had ANY skill that would help them be thieves. Hint: They do not.

The problem is that they were cat burglars and now they are museum guards.

The fact that you STILL think that they are equivalent at this point is just bizarre.

You went to the museum to get this crappy analogy? lol I'm sorry but you're taking the scenic route to avoid substance.

How is his analogy 'crappy'? Would you prefer 'bank guard' and 'bank robber'?

Hand_Bacon wrote: »

They do have skill at avoidance, just as much as anyone else outside of Khajiits.

The fact you can't see deeper than this is just bizarre.

But we don't want to be just as good at 'avoidance' as everyone but Khajiits. Wood elves have always been better at sneaking than everyone but Khajiits. In lore, in most of the single-player games, and in this game until a few days ago. Even if they weren't a thief or assassain, any Bosmer could still benefit from the passive in a pinch.
Now that has been taken away from us and replaced with something that many if not most of us will rarely if ever use. Its been said before and i'll say it again: Stealth Detection is useless in %99.9... of PvE. Which is what many of us who have been complaining in these threads play.

THAT is the real reason we are so bitter about this.

Yes, we don't represent all Bosmer players. Maybe we aren't even a majority. But we are numerous enough that surely what we want is just as important as everyone else's. Would it really be a terrible thing if the detection got switched back to the stealth bonus? You would keep your roll dodge stuff, we get our stealth back, everyone goes home happier than they are right now.

Cundu_Ertur

Fata1moose wrote: »

I'm actually surprised to see that this change caused more of a storm than the Dark Elf flame damage loss. Those were the only two changes i have a problem with so I hope they address both.

The difference is that Bosmer had stealth bonuses in Morrowind, Oblivion, and Skyrim (which are all of the games to feature any kind of racial skill bonuses). Dunmer never had a bonus to just fire damage, aside from here -- it was an innovation and not a particularly good one, I think. They had a bonus to the entire set of destruction and mystic spells, which were coincidentally the only schools which would do direct damage. Replacing the fire damage bonus (and lesser amounts for other elements) with a flat bonus to all magical damage is actually better in keeping with previous games, as is the weapon damage bonus.

Aela_Dragonrider

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Gibgarde wrote: »

On one hand, all of this fighting might get ZOS to look at this thread again to read our feedback

On the other hand, all of this fighting might get this thread locked since we've already been warned once, ontop of the fact that we've gone from constructive feedback to arguing if stealth detect is useful at all. (Hint: It's not. It's really, really not)

Maybe calm down, so we can keep our argument civil so that ZOS might take us seriously.

You are very right. However on page 18 it is getting difficult to come up with things that have not already been said. What we can do and haven't done yet is start collecting our arguments in a simple and easy to grasp (rant free) format that we can then hand people like the reps and the devs.

I second your suggestion. It would be helpful to clarify our grievances.

Arato

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Hand_Bacon wrote: »

KMarble wrote: »

I think the problem is that you're looking at it as if the passive is one thing, and that to change one aspect of it would be to change the whole. I see it as 3 different traits that could be modified separately.

Can we just ask them to take our 10% reduced fall damage in exchange for giving back the 3m reduction? Seems more fit for Khajiits always landing on their feet anyways.

I don't know if I really want to give up that increased ability to find other non bosmer/khajiit stealthers first.

My suggestion, IF we need to be different from the Khajiit was:
1) Put 2m hiding bonus in legerdemain in .5 increments in the Improved Hiding skill. Everyone would be able to get 2m hiding bonus that way. Also, provide some way to level legerdemain that didn't involve picking locks or pockets -- maybe tied to doing damage out of stealth or something.
2) Reduce the Khajiit bonus to a max of 2m, but they'd otherwise remain the same. Scale would be .5/1/2 or something like that.
3) Leave Hunter's Eye alone (even keeping the detested detection bonus), but give Bosmer a 1m hiding bonus in their 'free' passive.

Bosmer would start the game being able to hide a bit better than anyone else, but if they don't level their skill in legerdemain they get left behind by everyone else. Khajiit would eventually be the best, but they'd have to work at it. In the end, all races would be able to get a 2m bonus, those Bosmer who work at it would have a 3m bonus, Those Khajiit who work at it would have a 4m bonus. Everyone wins, no-one loses.

No, in the Lore, Bosmer always got a stronger stealth bonus than Khajiit. Khajiit had a stronger acrobatics bonus.... ESO gets them backwards.

The skills most associated with Bosmer are marksmanship, sneak, alchemy, and light armor (remember in single player TES games clothing like robes isn't counted as armor at all, light armor is leather, medium (if it's in the game) is mail, and heavy is plate). They always get bonuses to those skills, with marksman/archery being the highest. They have also here and there gotten bonuses to acrobatics, pickpocket, lockpicking, and in Oblivion, alteration.

the skills most associated with Khajiit are acrobatics, athletics, hand to hand, and sneak (but generally a smaller bonus than what Bosmer get except Skyrim where it becomes their main skill (as acrobatics and athletics and hand to hand were removed from Skyrim)

Khanjiit having equal stealth bonus with Bosmer? Sure. Better? No. Bosmer should be the scouts and thieves where Khajiit are more associated with martial artists, and it'd be really nice if one day we had a martial arts/hand to hand tree (though you'd have to have some sort of fist weapon or claw weapon for things like enchants and stats). IMO Elsweyr should have introduced monks rather than necromancers.

Arato

Hand_Bacon wrote: »

So you still don't think being stealthy is equally detecting before being detected?

EDIT: To illuminate, what if everyone, NPC's included, were stealthed?

Nothing in PVE stealths, so no, and when in PVE doing stealth gameplay we're attempting to avoid being spotted, not spot others, so not the same thing at all.

BlueRaven

Just a FYI: For those you you doing VAA (or even AA I would assume) the center group adds will have a much longer stealth detection that you are used to. Be careful.

max_only

What ifs
In the future maybe

That’s the only defense to the simple question I posed.

If one has to change the entirety of the universe and space time to validate your side, then you’re doing it wrong.

“What if enemies in pve stealthed/crouched?” Well they don’t. Full stop.

“In the future there maybe be a reason for detect stealth in pve.” Then change it in the future, now as we are today, detect stealth has no benefit. They want to sell a game today. Today the game does not have stealth enemies in pve. Today.

Eiron77

Hand_Bacon wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

Hand_Bacon wrote: »

Of course its not the same in the sense its not the same game mechanic, but it is related as in part of the same ability. Especially in Cyro.

My sorc casted magelight! I am stealthy now!!!!!! - Said nobody ever.

BlueRaven wrote: »

Hand_Bacon wrote: »

Of course its not the same in the sense its not the same game mechanic, but it is related as in part of the same ability. Especially in Cyro.

My sorc casted magelight! I am stealthy now!!!!!! - Said nobody ever.

Actually, by casting that ability they were partaking in the stealth game. However you know that your example is ridiculous and you're hoping to avoid the nuance of the subject.

If 2 players are in stealth and both are equal in avoidance and one is greater in detection. Their aim is to find and destroy each other, who would be the greater at stealth?

So when my Bosmer roll dodges a fireball, I've participated in the magicka game? So now my bosmer is a magicka race too? Is that how this works?

Jaraal

The reason they removed the Stealthy racial passive is because of the damage from stealth modifier scaling along with the shrinking of the detection radius. They didn't really care about Bosmer being stealthy, they just wanted to nerf the 10% damage bonus that came along with it. So, instead of taking the time to figure out how to separate the two elements of the passive, they just tossed the whole code out, and replaced it with a garbage passive that is worthless in PvE, and has been reported to be extremely underachieving in PvP.

Why else would they contradict their statement about wanting to spread diversity between the races, and then eliminate half of the stealthy races in the game? Are they REALLY trying to get more people to play Khajiits ahead of the upcoming Khajiit chapter? With all the people traditionally complaining in the PvP threads about the "Roly Poly proctards" wearing Eternal Hunt and Senche's Bite.... are they really encouraging another niche playstyle that is often described as "cancer?" Or are they throwing this weird six second 10% speed roll dodge buff as appeasement for killing Swift and Major Expedition sets?

All I know is, it stinks. Bosmer lore is being tossed out like yesterday's skooma pipe water, and for what? Some sketchy PvP "balancing" that might affect 20% (or less) of people who rolled a wood elf? All those weeks training Legerdemain, Thieves Guild, Dark Brotherhood, etc, just so you can scrap your Bosmer and make a Khajiit thief and do it all over again so you can earn some decent gold? Madness, I tell you! Next thing you know, they'll be tossing other lore out the window and bringing wyverns to the Age of Heroes 1,000 years ahead of schedule!

Oh, wait.......

Wildbloom

max_only wrote: »

“In the future there maybe be a reason for detect stealth in pve.” Then change it in the future, now as we are today, detect stealth has no benefit. They want to sell a game today. Today the game does not have stealth enemies in pve. Today.

Even then, would anyone REALLY want to sacrifice one of their racial abilities so that a trash mob/mobs can be seen a little easier? even if they have a Trial or dungeon that requires someone to knock dangerous enemies out of stealth to survive and progress, that's still an incredibly niche area for one race to be slightly better than the rest in, even if this insane situation did make it into the game.

I think the argument for stealth detection being useful in PvE is irrelevant. So far the only arguments for it have been "what if...".
Can anyone realistically name one racial in the game that is 100% purely suited for PvP only, aside from bosmer's Hunters eye? Even the altmer stam regen can be seen as useful for a magika user to regain stam for sprinting in pve, but that's the only one I can think of, and even that one is very controversial and niche.

JayAstrophel

If we should make a list, here's my suggestions based on what I have read:

- stealth detect is useless in PvE, many people don't play PvP at all so get no use from this trait
- Bosmer were made to be thieves and Imperials are now better at thieving - doesn't make sense
- Doesn't fit lore

add on/change as you will

BlueRaven

max_only wrote: »

What ifs
In the future maybe

That’s the only defense to the simple question I posed.

If one has to change the entirety of the universe and space time to validate your side, then you’re doing it wrong.

“What if enemies in pve stealthed/crouched?” Well they don’t. Full stop.

“In the future there maybe be a reason for detect stealth in pve.” Then change it in the future, now as we are today, detect stealth has no benefit. They want to sell a game today. Today the game does not have stealth enemies in pve. Today.

Yeah, like they are going to go back and redo all the zones to make stealth detection relevant too. lol

Sylvermynx

Eh, I don't play sneak thief on my Bosmer. It's not a playstyle I personally enjoy.

However - the basic trait of Bosmer IS stealth. And yet... ZOS chose to "special" pvp yet again. THAT is the problem. Everything ZOS does is to stroke pvp.

You know, I'm really enjoying this game. And I'm spending a lot of RLD on it. But.... if this trend doesn't go away.... I will be going away. Which is sad because there's nothing else out there to play - yeah, I know y'all will post suggestions for stupid phone games. I don't DO that crap. I do TES. Too bad I don't do WoW any more, or RIFT....

Guess I'll be going back to Skyrim. I'd almost rather go back to Oblivion at least to start.... but I can't deal with the potato faces.

BlueRaven

I am hoping at the Pax East event they have the "fix" they claimed was coming. I am definitely going, it's just a matter of what day.

Basically I can spend $200 on a train ticket that will get me there and back on the same day. Or I can drive and spend the night before and after at my relatives house that is roughly 1/2 way there.

So I am trying to figure out what I am going to do. (And on what day.)

Maybe I will go on the first day? And if I missed something I will spend an extra day up there? hmmm

Sylvermynx

BlueRaven wrote: »

I am hoping at the Pax East event they have the "fix" they claimed was coming. I am definitely going, it's just a matter of what day.

Basically I can spend $200 on a train ticket that will get me there and back on the same day. Or I can drive and spend the night before and after at my relatives house that is roughly 1/2 way there.

So I am trying to figure out what I am going to do. (And on what day.)

Maybe I will go on the first day? And if I missed something I will spend an extra day up there? hmmm

Blue, do whatever is safest considering the weather.... Please, be safe.

BlueRaven

JayAstrophel wrote: »

If we should make a list, here's my suggestions based on what I have read:

- stealth detect is useless in PvE, many people don't play PvP at all so get no use from this trait
- Bosmer were made to be thieves and Imperials are now better at thieving - doesn't make sense
- Doesn't fit lore

add on/change as you will

The PvP detect bonus is EXTREMELY limited and situational as well. Most NB's open with an invisibility move that this does not detect.

What the detect is best used for is finding the odd templar or sorc who went into stealth so they can go do a bio break (sarcasm). For combat it's pretty pointless.

BlueRaven

Sylvermynx wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

I am hoping at the Pax East event they have the "fix" they claimed was coming. I am definitely going, it's just a matter of what day.

Basically I can spend $200 on a train ticket that will get me there and back on the same day. Or I can drive and spend the night before and after at my relatives house that is roughly 1/2 way there.

So I am trying to figure out what I am going to do. (And on what day.)

Maybe I will go on the first day? And if I missed something I will spend an extra day up there? hmmm

Blue, do whatever is safest considering the weather.... Please, be safe.

Thanks!

Yeah that is why I don't want to drive, I have been to boston a few times, but each time I used mass transit. This is the first time I would be driving and the friday is a weekday, so extra crowded.

Then again $200 for a few hours? hmmm

BlueRaven

Sylvermynx wrote: »

Eh, I don't play sneak thief on my Bosmer. It's not a playstyle I personally enjoy.

However - the basic trait of Bosmer IS stealth. And yet... ZOS chose to "special" pvp yet again. THAT is the problem. Everything ZOS does is to stroke pvp.

You know, I'm really enjoying this game. And I'm spending a lot of RLD on it. But.... if this trend doesn't go away.... I will be going away. Which is sad because there's nothing else out there to play - yeah, I know y'all will post suggestions for stupid phone games. I don't DO that crap. I do TES. Too bad I don't do WoW any more, or RIFT....

Guess I'll be going back to Skyrim. I'd almost rather go back to Oblivion at least to start.... but I can't deal with the potato faces.

I would love to play oblivion again, I am hoping for a remaster for the PS4. (I can't stand the faces either.)

Ratzkifal

@JayAstrophel Good start, but the "doesn't fit lore" needs to be explained thoroughly if we are going to hand it to someone. It also needs examples and evidence. The argument, that Imperials are better at thieving, which doesn't make sense, isn't strong enough, because ZOS found a great solution for the Red Diamond passive and suggesting that might sound like you are calling for nerfs. We are not calling for nerfs of others to have our fun! Similarly we won't get into Imperials having more health than Orcs when they shouldn't.

I would change it to this, but I'm leaving the lore part as is because it's late here and that one will probably the most difficult one.

- We want more diverse race choices for characters that are focused on justice interactions. Having Khajiit be the only one with a sneaking advantage is very limiting.
- stealth detect is useless in PvE, many people don't play PvP at all so get no use from this trait, so that is what we would give up for a bonus to sneaking for Bosmer
- Doesn't fit lore

zyk

I guess I'll be a broken record too!

It's not about which passive is better or worse. That's always going to be completely subjective.

It's just a very basic ethic in any kind of transaction that you don't change the product after it's been sold to the customer. In the case of a game, particularly an MMO, sometimes a change is necessary to correct a problem, but still care should always be taken to step on as few toes as possible.

Changing Bosmer's detection radius reduction to stealth detection did not solve any problems. But it created problems for likely thousands of players who thoughtfully chose Bosmer for their sneaky characters years ago.

Through the years, these players developed and grew attached to their characters as their stories unfolded.

Truly, what ZOS did to those players is wrong.

So whether you were negatively impacted by these changes, know that it's legitimately heartbreaking to others. And needlessly so. ZOS could have easily walked this one back. They have exposed themselves as stubborn and uncaring IMO.

Wildbloom

I've said it before, I'll say it again: I believe that this change impacts an area of gameplay far more than any other change they've made. Some races do more damage now, some have more health, some have less sustain, but some classes got genuinely good buffs (nords) while some were downgraded as far as, say, trail boss DPS, if only slightly.

The change to bosmer stealth effects the feel of a major aspect of the game. Us Bosmer are used to being stealthy. Myself, every time I try to do sneaky stuff on my bosmer main now, it feels alien and awful compared to last week thanks to this change. Stealth used to be fun, now it's frustrating. It's possible to do, yes, but so is magicka dps on a redguard. Possible, but gimped hard.

I badly want to stay bosmer, but the khajit stealth racial is almost enough to make me switch. I've grown attached to this elf since before Morrowind released, and seeing her grow fur and a tail just to get back something I had last week is almost insulting.

Sylvermynx

Gibgarde wrote: »

I've said it before, I'll say it again: I believe that this change impacts an area of gameplay far more than any other change they've made. Some races do more damage now, some have more health, some have less sustain, but some classes got genuinely good buffs (nords) while some were downgraded as far as, say, trail boss DPS, if only slightly.

The change to bosmer stealth effects the feel of a major aspect of the game. Us Bosmer are used to being stealthy. Myself, every time I try to do sneaky stuff on my bosmer main now, it feels alien and awful compared to last week thanks to this change. Stealth used to be fun, now it's frustrating. It's possible to do, yes, but so is magicka dps on a redguard. Possible, but gimped hard.

I badly want to stay bosmer, but the khajit stealth racial is almost enough to make me switch. I've grown attached to this elf since before Morrowind released, and seeing her grow fur and a tail just to get back something I had last week is almost insulting.

I don't chase meta, so my girls aren't race changing. I understand the issues for those of you who are feeling the pinch though.

The whole thing really sucks. I don't play Bosmer as sneak thieves, so it doesn't actually affect me. However, the whole "discard the lore for the the last 20 years" - yah, that bothers me.

anadandy

zyk wrote: »

Changing Bosmer's stealth reduction to stealth detection did not solve any problems. But it created problems for likely thousands of players who thoughtfully chose Bosmer for their sneaky characters years ago.
.

Well said. This is the root of it for me too. The change was unnecessary for balance and not a single reasoning for it made sense. I outlined them all in another post but for example.

"Stealth is not a universal mechanic" = Replace it with something even less universal

BlueRaven

anadandy wrote: »

"Stealth is not a universal mechanic" = Replace it with something even less universal

Ha! I love that line.

A_Silverius

Eiron77 wrote: »

"Stealth is not a universal mechanic" = Replace it with something even less universal

ZOS: "many enemies in Tamriel can’t be bothered sneaking about" Gives stealth detection.