Wood Elf/ Bosmer losing stealth passive, An open letter.

max_only

I know it has nothing to do with me. That’s the point. I have calmly and clearly presented answers to objections and all of it is ignored.

Hand_Bacon

max_only wrote: »

I know it has nothing to do with me. That’s the point. I have calmly and clearly presented answers to objections and all of it is ignored.

I didn't know you stated anything others hadn't if you want a direct response I'd say, again, that I have no objection to it being put back in, I just don't want the current taken out to do it. That's where we differ.

KMarble

Hand_Bacon wrote: »

I don't know if I really want to give up that increased ability to find other non bosmer/khajiit stealthers first.

Hand_Bacon wrote: »

KMarble wrote: »

From what I've read so far once you use it, you get out of stealth yourself and because of the very small radius, you'll be within reach of a melee attack. Or did I understand it all wrong?

The stealth detection is always there when you're moving around, its not only after you roll dodge. When you roll dodge you get the pen/speed and yes, that pops you out of stealth.

let me try again. How does stealth detection help with your play style? What does it do that makes you say you don't want to lose it?

And just to reiterate, I have absolutely nothing against the pen/speed passive, even though I'll probably never take advantage of it (what can I say...I have a hard time wrapping my brain around double tapping :P).

Hand_Bacon

@KMarble

it helps me detect stealth....

I don't know how else to put it.

Ratzkifal

Hand_Bacon wrote: »

@KMarble

it helps me detect stealth....

I don't know how else to put it.

Okay, but are you like running around in Cyrodiil throwing out flares and caltrops and making the life of sneaking people a pain or are you just casually running around and when you spot someone you hit him?

Hand_Bacon

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Okay, but are you like running around in Cyrodiil throwing out flares and caltrops and making the life of sneaking people a pain or are you just casually running around and when you spot someone you hit him?

Whether you are in a bg or cyro you can be in fights of whatever size and people will attempt to LOS and stealth up or cloak and then stealth. If you know the game you can judge where they are and find them, stealth detection helps in this. This is why people use stealth detect pots etc.

EDIT: There are a ton of 1vX or any type of small scale pvp videos which would give you a visual.

Night_Wolf2112

Hand_Bacon wrote: »

max_only wrote: »

I know it has nothing to do with me. That’s the point. I have calmly and clearly presented answers to objections and all of it is ignored.

I didn't know you stated anything others hadn't if you want a direct response I'd say, again, that I have no objection to it being put back in, I just don't want the current taken out to do it. That's where we differ.

Then you haven't comprehended what others have said.... and it is a strange place to differ.

No one is saying 'take out the current and put back in the old.' We want ONE word, detect, reverted, not the entire passive. Which you say, you have no objection to. . . . . .why are you causing people so much grief and running down their arguments if you don't object, which seemes to mean you agree?

This is just a curious question for me to learn from.... I hope I don't come across combative. I like to see multiple points of view.

Ostacia

I'm truly stunned by this change. What about Bosmer being all tricksy and sneaky? Does that mean nothing now? Hoping they'll pull back on this!

Cundu_Ertur

Hand_Bacon wrote: »

KMarble wrote: »

I think the problem is that you're looking at it as if the passive is one thing, and that to change one aspect of it would be to change the whole. I see it as 3 different traits that could be modified separately.

Can we just ask them to take our 10% reduced fall damage in exchange for giving back the 3m reduction? Seems more fit for Khajiits always landing on their feet anyways.

I don't know if I really want to give up that increased ability to find other non bosmer/khajiit stealthers first.

My suggestion, IF we need to be different from the Khajiit was:
1) Put 2m hiding bonus in legerdemain in .5 increments in the Improved Hiding skill. Everyone would be able to get 2m hiding bonus that way. Also, provide some way to level legerdemain that didn't involve picking locks or pockets -- maybe tied to doing damage out of stealth or something.
2) Reduce the Khajiit bonus to a max of 2m, but they'd otherwise remain the same. Scale would be .5/1/2 or something like that.
3) Leave Hunter's Eye alone (even keeping the detested detection bonus), but give Bosmer a 1m hiding bonus in their 'free' passive.

Bosmer would start the game being able to hide a bit better than anyone else, but if they don't level their skill in legerdemain they get left behind by everyone else. Khajiit would eventually be the best, but they'd have to work at it. In the end, all races would be able to get a 2m bonus, those Bosmer who work at it would have a 3m bonus, Those Khajiit who work at it would have a 4m bonus. Everyone wins, no-one loses.

Hand_Bacon

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Hand_Bacon wrote: »

KMarble wrote: »

I think the problem is that you're looking at it as if the passive is one thing, and that to change one aspect of it would be to change the whole. I see it as 3 different traits that could be modified separately.

Can we just ask them to take our 10% reduced fall damage in exchange for giving back the 3m reduction? Seems more fit for Khajiits always landing on their feet anyways.

I don't know if I really want to give up that increased ability to find other non bosmer/khajiit stealthers first.

My suggestion, IF we need to be different from the Khajiit was:
1) Put 2m hiding bonus in legerdemain in .5 increments in the Improved Hiding skill. Everyone would be able to get 2m hiding bonus that way. Also, provide some way to level legerdemain that didn't involve picking locks or pockets -- maybe tied to doing damage out of stealth or something.
2) Reduce the Khajiit bonus to a max of 2m, but they'd otherwise remain the same. Scale would be .5/1/2 or something like that.
3) Leave Hunter's Eye alone (even keeping the detested detection bonus), but give Bosmer a 1m hiding bonus in their 'free' passive.

Bosmer would start the game being able to hide a bit better than anyone else, but if they don't level their skill in legerdemain they get left behind by everyone else. Khajiit would eventually be the best, but they'd have to work at it. In the end, all races would be able to get a 2m bonus, those Bosmer who work at it would have a 3m bonus, Those Khajiit who work at it would have a 4m bonus. Everyone wins, no-one loses.

On face value I don't see anything wrong with that. Am I being humpty dumpty'ish in my agreeing as well?

The other way of leveling legerdemain is, of course, slaughtering livestock and handing in stacks of mats.

Cundu_Ertur

Hand_Bacon wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Hand_Bacon wrote: »

KMarble wrote: »

I think the problem is that you're looking at it as if the passive is one thing, and that to change one aspect of it would be to change the whole. I see it as 3 different traits that could be modified separately.

Can we just ask them to take our 10% reduced fall damage in exchange for giving back the 3m reduction? Seems more fit for Khajiits always landing on their feet anyways.

I don't know if I really want to give up that increased ability to find other non bosmer/khajiit stealthers first.

My suggestion, IF we need to be different from the Khajiit was:
1) Put 2m hiding bonus in legerdemain in .5 increments in the Improved Hiding skill. Everyone would be able to get 2m hiding bonus that way. Also, provide some way to level legerdemain that didn't involve picking locks or pockets -- maybe tied to doing damage out of stealth or something.
2) Reduce the Khajiit bonus to a max of 2m, but they'd otherwise remain the same. Scale would be .5/1/2 or something like that.
3) Leave Hunter's Eye alone (even keeping the detested detection bonus), but give Bosmer a 1m hiding bonus in their 'free' passive.

Bosmer would start the game being able to hide a bit better than anyone else, but if they don't level their skill in legerdemain they get left behind by everyone else. Khajiit would eventually be the best, but they'd have to work at it. In the end, all races would be able to get a 2m bonus, those Bosmer who work at it would have a 3m bonus, Those Khajiit who work at it would have a 4m bonus. Everyone wins, no-one loses.

Am I being humpty dumpty'ish in my agreeing as well?

Only if you're going to insist that disagreeing is just like agreeing in a different form.

Hand_Bacon

So you still don't think being stealthy is equally detecting before being detected?

EDIT: To illuminate, what if everyone, NPC's included, were stealthed?

Cundu_Ertur

It's a nonsense conditional. No-one is stealthed outside of Cyrodiil, especially not NPC's.
In any case counter-stealth is not stealth, and will never be stealth. Even in the impossible event that everyone is in stealth, then detection still isn't stealth. It's detection.

Ratzkifal

Hand_Bacon wrote: »

So you still don't think being stealthy is equally detecting before being detected?

EDIT: To illuminate, what if everyone, NPC's included, were stealthed?

Even then I don't think it's the same. That would be more like survival rather than thievery. Seeing before being seen only works if the person hunting you is also stealthed. Sure, if guards were stealthed then maybe you could make a point. But guards are not stealthed and should not be stealthed either, since normal citizens need to recognize them too to call for aid.

Hand_Bacon

Of course its not the same in the sense its not the same game mechanic, but it is related as in part of the same ability. Especially in Cyro.

Cundu_Ertur

Agreement is related to disagreement, so clearly the same thing.

Hand_Bacon

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Agreement is related to disagreement, so clearly the same thing.

You're close, but no cigar yet.

If we were talking about argument then yes agreement and disagreement are part of the same thing.

We are talking stealth, being stealthy, detection and avoidance are part of the same thing. As my many examples have shown. This is in contrast to the argument that because they can detect they are somehow now the equivalent of dopey palace guards.

BlueRaven

Hand_Bacon wrote: »

Of course its not the same in the sense its not the same game mechanic, but it is related as in part of the same ability. Especially in Cyro.

My sorc casted magelight! I am stealthy now!!!!!! - Said nobody ever.

Night_Wolf2112

It's kind of like, Intelligence and Counter-Intelligence. . . They are related as in, one is true information and the other is still information, it's just false.

Hand_Bacon

BlueRaven wrote: »

Hand_Bacon wrote: »

Of course its not the same in the sense its not the same game mechanic, but it is related as in part of the same ability. Especially in Cyro.

My sorc casted magelight! I am stealthy now!!!!!! - Said nobody ever.

BlueRaven wrote: »

Hand_Bacon wrote: »

Of course its not the same in the sense its not the same game mechanic, but it is related as in part of the same ability. Especially in Cyro.

My sorc casted magelight! I am stealthy now!!!!!! - Said nobody ever.

Actually, by casting that ability they were partaking in the stealth game. However you know that your example is ridiculous and you're hoping to avoid the nuance of the subject.

If 2 players are in stealth and both are equal in avoidance and one is greater in detection. Their aim is to find and destroy each other, who would be the greater at stealth?

Cundu_Ertur

Avoidance isn't stealth. Not being seen is stealth. Stealth is when you are close enough to someone where they should be able to see you but they can't. Detection without stealth is a guard's skill. Detection + stealth is a scout's skill.

Razorback174

Night_Wolf2112 wrote: »

It's kind of like, Intelligence and Counter-Intelligence. . . They are related as in, one is true information and the other is still information, it's just false.

And artificial intelligence is no match for natural stupidity.

moonsugar66

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

... Detection without stealth is a guard's skill. Detection + stealth is a scout's skill.

Been tempted to rename my Wood Elf "Mall Cop" and change her to a pudgy, balding male with a mustache.

Hand_Bacon

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Avoidance isn't stealth. Not being seen is stealth. Stealth is when you are close enough to someone where they should be able to see you but they can't. Detection without stealth is a guard's skill. Detection + stealth is a scout's skill.

Avoidance is the buff you want back. Avoidance is stealth.
"the act or action of proceeding furtively, secretly, or imperceptibly"
here are some synonyms: clandestine, sneak, sneaking, sneaky, stealthy, surreptitious, undercover
Avoidance? "an act or practice of avoiding"

Detection is part of that stealth game. To say it isn't would only take into account a static world of NPC guards. We're talking pvp here where the world is dynamic and stealth depends on detection and avoidance.

Hand_Bacon

Razorback174 wrote: »

Night_Wolf2112 wrote: »

It's kind of like, Intelligence and Counter-Intelligence. . . They are related as in, one is true information and the other is still information, it's just false.

And artificial intelligence is no match for natural stupidity.

Thats funny. I was doing some reading the other day on AI and robotics. I found it mind boggling that in order to make true AI robotics you have to start with the structure or body before you work on the intelligence or it just won't work.

Ratzkifal

Hand_Bacon wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

Hand_Bacon wrote: »

Of course its not the same in the sense its not the same game mechanic, but it is related as in part of the same ability. Especially in Cyro.

My sorc casted magelight! I am stealthy now!!!!!! - Said nobody ever.

BlueRaven wrote: »

Hand_Bacon wrote: »

Of course its not the same in the sense its not the same game mechanic, but it is related as in part of the same ability. Especially in Cyro.

My sorc casted magelight! I am stealthy now!!!!!! - Said nobody ever.

Actually, by casting that ability they were partaking in the stealth game. However you know that your example is ridiculous and you're hoping to avoid the nuance of the subject.

If 2 players are in stealth and both are equal in avoidance and one is greater in detection. Their aim is to find and destroy each other, who would be the greater at stealth?

I'll give you that Bosmer are good at avoidance since that is part of agility and that Bosmer are agile, but I think the stamina boosts and dodgeroll already cover that agility enough.
Stealth is not agility though and stealth is not avoidance (in the sense that stealth is only a subset of it). If there is a precedent for Bosmer being good at stealth (which there is) then giving them a bonus to only "avoidance" won't do them justice!
And your example doesn't help you either, because of the way stealth works in ESO. If both people are stealthed, then the person without the greater detection will see their eye indicator go from "hidden" to "danger" before that of the enemy with the greater detection, warning them of their presence and giving away that they are about to be detected while the enemy that is better at detecting is completely unaware. The information game is clearly on the side of the one with the lesser detection, making them better at hiding. The rest is up to chance and what the player does with the information at hand, but that is already outside of the realm of racial passives.

BlueRaven

Hand_Bacon wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

Hand_Bacon wrote: »

Of course its not the same in the sense its not the same game mechanic, but it is related as in part of the same ability. Especially in Cyro.

My sorc casted magelight! I am stealthy now!!!!!! - Said nobody ever.

BlueRaven wrote: »

Hand_Bacon wrote: »

Of course its not the same in the sense its not the same game mechanic, but it is related as in part of the same ability. Especially in Cyro.

My sorc casted magelight! I am stealthy now!!!!!! - Said nobody ever.

Actually, by casting that ability they were partaking in the stealth game. However you know that your example is ridiculous and you're hoping to avoid the nuance of the subject.

If 2 players are in stealth and both are equal in avoidance and one is greater in detection. Their aim is to find and destroy each other, who would be the greater at stealth?

A security guard at a museum does not nearly have the same skill sets as the cat (lol) burglar attempting to steal the paintings.

Your laughable claims of "It takes a thief to catch one" would have a lot more weight if Bosmers had ANY skill that would help them be thieves. Hint: They do not.

The problem is that they were cat burglars and now they are museum guards.

The fact that you STILL think that they are equivalent at this point is just bizarre.

Hand_Bacon

Ratzkifal wrote: »

I'll give you that Bosmer are good at avoidance since that is part of agility and that Bosmer are agile, but I think the stamina boosts and dodgeroll already cover that agility enough.
Stealth is not agility though and stealth is not avoidance (in the sense that stealth is only a subset of it). If there is a precedent for Bosmer being good at stealth (which there is) then giving them a bonus to only "avoidance" won't do them justice!
And your example doesn't help you either, because of the way stealth works in ESO. If both people are stealthed, then the person without the greater detection will see their eye indicator go from "hidden" to "danger" before that of the enemy with the greater detection, warning them of their presence and giving away that they are about to be detected while the enemy that is better at detecting is completely unaware. The information game is clearly on the side of the one with the lesser detection, making them better at hiding. The rest is up to chance and what the player does with the information at hand, but that is already outside of the realm of racial passives.

You bring up some good points I'll have to chew on for a bit. Would you call it agility or dexterity?

Hand_Bacon

BlueRaven wrote: »

A security guard at a museum does not nearly have the same skill sets as the cat (lol) burglar attempting to steal the paintings.

Your laughable claims of "It takes a thief to catch one" would have a lot more weight if Bosmers had ANY skill that would help them be thieves. Hint: They do not.

The problem is that they were cat burglars and now they are museum guards.

The fact that you STILL think that they are equivalent at this point is just bizarre.

You went to the museum to get this crappy analogy? lol I'm sorry but you're taking the scenic route to avoid substance.

They do have skill at avoidance, just as much as anyone else outside of Khajiits.

The fact you can't see deeper than this is just bizarre.


EDIT: besides, aren't you the one playing? have you no skill? And its not my claim, its a 17th century saying.

max_only

1. Is the majority of content produced by Zos pvp?
2. Do you use stealth detect in pve?

The Socratic method can’t get any simpler.