Hand_Bacon wrote: »

max_only wrote: »

I know it has nothing to do with me. That’s the point. I have calmly and clearly presented answers to objections and all of it is ignored.

I didn't know you stated anything others hadn't if you want a direct response I'd say, again, that I have no objection to it being put back in, I just don't want the current taken out to do it. That's where we differ.

Then you haven't comprehended what others have said.... and it is a strange place to differ.

No one is saying 'take out the current and put back in the old.' We want ONE word, detect, reverted, not the entire passive. Which you say, you have no objection to. . . . . .why are you causing people so much grief and running down their arguments if you don't object, which seemes to mean you agree?

This is just a curious question for me to learn from.... I hope I don't come across combative. I like to see multiple points of view.

Hand_Bacon wrote: »

KMarble wrote: »

I think the problem is that you're looking at it as if the passive is one thing, and that to change one aspect of it would be to change the whole. I see it as 3 different traits that could be modified separately.

Can we just ask them to take our 10% reduced fall damage in exchange for giving back the 3m reduction? Seems more fit for Khajiits always landing on their feet anyways.

I don't know if I really want to give up that increased ability to find other non bosmer/khajiit stealthers first.

My suggestion, IF we need to be different from the Khajiit was:
1) Put 2m hiding bonus in legerdemain in .5 increments in the Improved Hiding skill. Everyone would be able to get 2m hiding bonus that way. Also, provide some way to level legerdemain that didn't involve picking locks or pockets -- maybe tied to doing damage out of stealth or something.
2) Reduce the Khajiit bonus to a max of 2m, but they'd otherwise remain the same. Scale would be .5/1/2 or something like that.
3) Leave Hunter's Eye alone (even keeping the detested detection bonus), but give Bosmer a 1m hiding bonus in their 'free' passive.

Bosmer would start the game being able to hide a bit better than anyone else, but if they don't level their skill in legerdemain they get left behind by everyone else. Khajiit would eventually be the best, but they'd have to work at it. In the end, all races would be able to get a 2m bonus, those Bosmer who work at it would have a 3m bonus, Those Khajiit who work at it would have a 4m bonus. Everyone wins, no-one loses.

So you still don't think being stealthy is equally detecting before being detected?

EDIT: To illuminate, what if everyone, NPC's included, were stealthed?

Hand_Bacon wrote: »

So you still don't think being stealthy is equally detecting before being detected?

EDIT: To illuminate, what if everyone, NPC's included, were stealthed?

Even then I don't think it's the same. That would be more like survival rather than thievery. Seeing before being seen only works if the person hunting you is also stealthed. Sure, if guards were stealthed then maybe you could make a point. But guards are not stealthed and should not be stealthed either, since normal citizens need to recognize them too to call for aid.

Agreement is related to disagreement, so clearly the same thing.

Hand_Bacon wrote: »

Of course its not the same in the sense its not the same game mechanic, but it is related as in part of the same ability. Especially in Cyro.

My sorc casted magelight! I am stealthy now!!!!!! - Said nobody ever.

BlueRaven wrote: »

Hand_Bacon wrote: »

Of course its not the same in the sense its not the same game mechanic, but it is related as in part of the same ability. Especially in Cyro.

My sorc casted magelight! I am stealthy now!!!!!! - Said nobody ever.

BlueRaven wrote: »

Hand_Bacon wrote: »

Of course its not the same in the sense its not the same game mechanic, but it is related as in part of the same ability. Especially in Cyro.

My sorc casted magelight! I am stealthy now!!!!!! - Said nobody ever.

Actually, by casting that ability they were partaking in the stealth game. However you know that your example is ridiculous and you're hoping to avoid the nuance of the subject.

If 2 players are in stealth and both are equal in avoidance and one is greater in detection. Their aim is to find and destroy each other, who would be the greater at stealth?

Night_Wolf2112 wrote: »

It's kind of like, Intelligence and Counter-Intelligence. . . They are related as in, one is true information and the other is still information, it's just false.

And artificial intelligence is no match for natural stupidity.

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Avoidance isn't stealth. Not being seen is stealth. Stealth is when you are close enough to someone where they should be able to see you but they can't. Detection without stealth is a guard's skill. Detection + stealth is a scout's skill.

Avoidance is the buff you want back. Avoidance is stealth.
"the act or action of proceeding furtively, secretly, or imperceptibly"
here are some synonyms: clandestine, sneak, sneaking, sneaky, stealthy, surreptitious, undercover
Avoidance? "an act or practice of avoiding"

Detection is part of that stealth game. To say it isn't would only take into account a static world of NPC guards. We're talking pvp here where the world is dynamic and stealth depends on detection and avoidance.

Hand_Bacon wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

Hand_Bacon wrote: »

Of course its not the same in the sense its not the same game mechanic, but it is related as in part of the same ability. Especially in Cyro.

My sorc casted magelight! I am stealthy now!!!!!! - Said nobody ever.

BlueRaven wrote: »

Hand_Bacon wrote: »

Of course its not the same in the sense its not the same game mechanic, but it is related as in part of the same ability. Especially in Cyro.

My sorc casted magelight! I am stealthy now!!!!!! - Said nobody ever.

Actually, by casting that ability they were partaking in the stealth game. However you know that your example is ridiculous and you're hoping to avoid the nuance of the subject.

If 2 players are in stealth and both are equal in avoidance and one is greater in detection. Their aim is to find and destroy each other, who would be the greater at stealth?

I'll give you that Bosmer are good at avoidance since that is part of agility and that Bosmer are agile, but I think the stamina boosts and dodgeroll already cover that agility enough.
Stealth is not agility though and stealth is not avoidance (in the sense that stealth is only a subset of it). If there is a precedent for Bosmer being good at stealth (which there is) then giving them a bonus to only "avoidance" won't do them justice!
And your example doesn't help you either, because of the way stealth works in ESO. If both people are stealthed, then the person without the greater detection will see their eye indicator go from "hidden" to "danger" before that of the enemy with the greater detection, warning them of their presence and giving away that they are about to be detected while the enemy that is better at detecting is completely unaware. The information game is clearly on the side of the one with the lesser detection, making them better at hiding. The rest is up to chance and what the player does with the information at hand, but that is already outside of the realm of racial passives.

Ratzkifal wrote: »

I'll give you that Bosmer are good at avoidance since that is part of agility and that Bosmer are agile, but I think the stamina boosts and dodgeroll already cover that agility enough.
Stealth is not agility though and stealth is not avoidance (in the sense that stealth is only a subset of it). If there is a precedent for Bosmer being good at stealth (which there is) then giving them a bonus to only "avoidance" won't do them justice!
And your example doesn't help you either, because of the way stealth works in ESO. If both people are stealthed, then the person without the greater detection will see their eye indicator go from "hidden" to "danger" before that of the enemy with the greater detection, warning them of their presence and giving away that they are about to be detected while the enemy that is better at detecting is completely unaware. The information game is clearly on the side of the one with the lesser detection, making them better at hiding. The rest is up to chance and what the player does with the information at hand, but that is already outside of the realm of racial passives.

You bring up some good points I'll have to chew on for a bit. Would you call it agility or dexterity?

1. Is the majority of content produced by Zos pvp?
2. Do you use stealth detect in pve?

The Socratic method can’t get any simpler.

Hand_Bacon wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

I'll give you that Bosmer are good at avoidance since that is part of agility and that Bosmer are agile, but I think the stamina boosts and dodgeroll already cover that agility enough.
Stealth is not agility though and stealth is not avoidance (in the sense that stealth is only a subset of it). If there is a precedent for Bosmer being good at stealth (which there is) then giving them a bonus to only "avoidance" won't do them justice!
And your example doesn't help you either, because of the way stealth works in ESO. If both people are stealthed, then the person without the greater detection will see their eye indicator go from "hidden" to "danger" before that of the enemy with the greater detection, warning them of their presence and giving away that they are about to be detected while the enemy that is better at detecting is completely unaware. The information game is clearly on the side of the one with the lesser detection, making them better at hiding. The rest is up to chance and what the player does with the information at hand, but that is already outside of the realm of racial passives.

You bring up some good points I'll have to chew on for a bit. Would you call it agility or dexterity?

I would call it agility, but keep in mind that nuance may be lost in translation as English is my second language and both words give the same (bunch of) translations in my dictionary.

I'd interpret these things as follows.

Agility - the ability to move with ease and precision

• Avoidance - the ability to avoid hostilities and potentially dangerous situations
• 1. Stealth - the ability to remain unseen and undetected

And that last one is where Bosmer are specialized in comparison to, say, Redguards, who are agile too and should have comparable avoidance, but theirs is expressed in althetics rather than acrobatics and stealth.

Gibgarde wrote: »

On one hand, all of this fighting might get ZOS to look at this thread again to read our feedback

On the other hand, all of this fighting might get this thread locked since we've already been warned once, ontop of the fact that we've gone from constructive feedback to arguing if stealth detect is useful at all. (Hint: It's not. It's really, really not)

Maybe calm down, so we can keep our argument civil so that ZOS might take us seriously.

You are very right. However on page 18 it is getting difficult to come up with things that have not already been said. What we can do and haven't done yet is start collecting our arguments in a simple and easy to grasp (rant free) format that we can then hand people like the reps and the devs.

I'm actually surprised to see that this change caused more of a storm than the Dark Elf flame damage loss. Those were the only two changes I have a problem with so I hope they address both.