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Wood Elf/ Bosmer losing stealth passive, An open letter.

  • Hand_Bacon
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    max_only wrote: »
    I know it has nothing to do with me. That’s the point. I have calmly and clearly presented answers to objections and all of it is ignored.

    I didn't know you stated anything others hadn't if you want a direct response I'd say, again, that I have no objection to it being put back in, I just don't want the current taken out to do it. That's where we differ.

  • Hand_Bacon
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    @KMarble

    it helps me detect stealth....

    :) I don't know how else to put it.
  • Hand_Bacon
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    Ratzkifal wrote: »

    Okay, but are you like running around in Cyrodiil throwing out flares and caltrops and making the life of sneaking people a pain or are you just casually running around and when you spot someone you hit him?

    Whether you are in a bg or cyro you can be in fights of whatever size and people will attempt to LOS and stealth up or cloak and then stealth. If you know the game you can judge where they are and find them, stealth detection helps in this. This is why people use stealth detect pots etc.

    EDIT: There are a ton of 1vX or any type of small scale pvp videos which would give you a visual.
    Edited by Hand_Bacon on February 28, 2019 10:31PM
  • Cundu_Ertur
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    Hand_Bacon wrote: »
    KMarble wrote: »

    I think the problem is that you're looking at it as if the passive is one thing, and that to change one aspect of it would be to change the whole. I see it as 3 different traits that could be modified separately.

    Can we just ask them to take our 10% reduced fall damage in exchange for giving back the 3m reduction? Seems more fit for Khajiits always landing on their feet anyways.

    I don't know if I really want to give up that increased ability to find other non bosmer/khajiit stealthers first.

    My suggestion, IF we need to be different from the Khajiit was:
    1) Put 2m hiding bonus in legerdemain in .5 increments in the Improved Hiding skill. Everyone would be able to get 2m hiding bonus that way. Also, provide some way to level legerdemain that didn't involve picking locks or pockets -- maybe tied to doing damage out of stealth or something.
    2) Reduce the Khajiit bonus to a max of 2m, but they'd otherwise remain the same. Scale would be .5/1/2 or something like that.
    3) Leave Hunter's Eye alone (even keeping the detested detection bonus), but give Bosmer a 1m hiding bonus in their 'free' passive.

    Bosmer would start the game being able to hide a bit better than anyone else, but if they don't level their skill in legerdemain they get left behind by everyone else. Khajiit would eventually be the best, but they'd have to work at it. In the end, all races would be able to get a 2m bonus, those Bosmer who work at it would have a 3m bonus, Those Khajiit who work at it would have a 4m bonus. Everyone wins, no-one loses.
    Taking stealth away from the Bosmer is like taking magic away from the Altmer, making Nords allergic to mead, or making Orcs pretty.
  • Hand_Bacon
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    Hand_Bacon wrote: »
    KMarble wrote: »

    I think the problem is that you're looking at it as if the passive is one thing, and that to change one aspect of it would be to change the whole. I see it as 3 different traits that could be modified separately.

    Can we just ask them to take our 10% reduced fall damage in exchange for giving back the 3m reduction? Seems more fit for Khajiits always landing on their feet anyways.

    I don't know if I really want to give up that increased ability to find other non bosmer/khajiit stealthers first.

    My suggestion, IF we need to be different from the Khajiit was:
    1) Put 2m hiding bonus in legerdemain in .5 increments in the Improved Hiding skill. Everyone would be able to get 2m hiding bonus that way. Also, provide some way to level legerdemain that didn't involve picking locks or pockets -- maybe tied to doing damage out of stealth or something.
    2) Reduce the Khajiit bonus to a max of 2m, but they'd otherwise remain the same. Scale would be .5/1/2 or something like that.
    3) Leave Hunter's Eye alone (even keeping the detested detection bonus), but give Bosmer a 1m hiding bonus in their 'free' passive.

    Bosmer would start the game being able to hide a bit better than anyone else, but if they don't level their skill in legerdemain they get left behind by everyone else. Khajiit would eventually be the best, but they'd have to work at it. In the end, all races would be able to get a 2m bonus, those Bosmer who work at it would have a 3m bonus, Those Khajiit who work at it would have a 4m bonus. Everyone wins, no-one loses.

    On face value I don't see anything wrong with that. Am I being humpty dumpty'ish in my agreeing as well?

    The other way of leveling legerdemain is, of course, slaughtering livestock and handing in stacks of mats.

  • Hand_Bacon
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    So you still don't think being stealthy is equally detecting before being detected?

    EDIT: To illuminate, what if everyone, NPC's included, were stealthed?
    Edited by Hand_Bacon on February 28, 2019 11:57PM
  • Hand_Bacon
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    Of course its not the same in the sense its not the same game mechanic, but it is related as in part of the same ability. Especially in Cyro.
  • Cundu_Ertur
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    Agreement is related to disagreement, so clearly the same thing.

    Taking stealth away from the Bosmer is like taking magic away from the Altmer, making Nords allergic to mead, or making Orcs pretty.
  • Hand_Bacon
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    Agreement is related to disagreement, so clearly the same thing.

    You're close, but no cigar yet.

    If we were talking about argument then yes agreement and disagreement are part of the same thing.

    We are talking stealth, being stealthy, detection and avoidance are part of the same thing. As my many examples have shown. This is in contrast to the argument that because they can detect they are somehow now the equivalent of dopey palace guards.
  • Night_Wolf2112
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    It's kind of like, Intelligence and Counter-Intelligence. . . They are related as in, one is true information and the other is still information, it's just false.
  • Hand_Bacon
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    BlueRaven wrote: »
    Hand_Bacon wrote: »
    Of course its not the same in the sense its not the same game mechanic, but it is related as in part of the same ability. Especially in Cyro.

    My sorc casted magelight! I am stealthy now!!!!!! - Said nobody ever.
    BlueRaven wrote: »
    Hand_Bacon wrote: »
    Of course its not the same in the sense its not the same game mechanic, but it is related as in part of the same ability. Especially in Cyro.

    My sorc casted magelight! I am stealthy now!!!!!! - Said nobody ever.

    Actually, by casting that ability they were partaking in the stealth game. However you know that your example is ridiculous and you're hoping to avoid the nuance of the subject.

    If 2 players are in stealth and both are equal in avoidance and one is greater in detection. Their aim is to find and destroy each other, who would be the greater at stealth?
  • Razorback174
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    It's kind of like, Intelligence and Counter-Intelligence. . . They are related as in, one is true information and the other is still information, it's just false.

    And artificial intelligence is no match for natural stupidity.
  • Hand_Bacon
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    Avoidance isn't stealth. Not being seen is stealth. Stealth is when you are close enough to someone where they should be able to see you but they can't. Detection without stealth is a guard's skill. Detection + stealth is a scout's skill.

    Avoidance is the buff you want back. Avoidance is stealth.
    "the act or action of proceeding furtively, secretly, or imperceptibly"
    here are some synonyms: clandestine, sneak, sneaking, sneaky, stealthy, surreptitious, undercover
    Avoidance? "an act or practice of avoiding"

    Detection is part of that stealth game. To say it isn't would only take into account a static world of NPC guards. We're talking pvp here where the world is dynamic and stealth depends on detection and avoidance.



  • Hand_Bacon
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    It's kind of like, Intelligence and Counter-Intelligence. . . They are related as in, one is true information and the other is still information, it's just false.

    And artificial intelligence is no match for natural stupidity.

    Thats funny. I was doing some reading the other day on AI and robotics. I found it mind boggling that in order to make true AI robotics you have to start with the structure or body before you work on the intelligence or it just won't work.
  • Hand_Bacon
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    Ratzkifal wrote: »
    I'll give you that Bosmer are good at avoidance since that is part of agility and that Bosmer are agile, but I think the stamina boosts and dodgeroll already cover that agility enough.
    Stealth is not agility though and stealth is not avoidance (in the sense that stealth is only a subset of it). If there is a precedent for Bosmer being good at stealth (which there is) then giving them a bonus to only "avoidance" won't do them justice!
    And your example doesn't help you either, because of the way stealth works in ESO. If both people are stealthed, then the person without the greater detection will see their eye indicator go from "hidden" to "danger" before that of the enemy with the greater detection, warning them of their presence and giving away that they are about to be detected while the enemy that is better at detecting is completely unaware. The information game is clearly on the side of the one with the lesser detection, making them better at hiding. The rest is up to chance and what the player does with the information at hand, but that is already outside of the realm of racial passives.

    You bring up some good points I'll have to chew on for a bit. Would you call it agility or dexterity?
  • Hand_Bacon
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    BlueRaven wrote: »
    A security guard at a museum does not nearly have the same skill sets as the cat (lol) burglar attempting to steal the paintings.

    Your laughable claims of "It takes a thief to catch one" would have a lot more weight if Bosmers had ANY skill that would help them be thieves. Hint: They do not.

    The problem is that they were cat burglars and now they are museum guards.

    The fact that you STILL think that they are equivalent at this point is just bizarre.

    You went to the museum to get this crappy analogy? lol I'm sorry but you're taking the scenic route to avoid substance.

    They do have skill at avoidance, just as much as anyone else outside of Khajiits.

    The fact you can't see deeper than this is just bizarre.


    EDIT: besides, aren't you the one playing? have you no skill? And its not my claim, its a 17th century saying.


    Edited by Hand_Bacon on March 1, 2019 1:05AM
This discussion has been closed.