Liking some of the suggestions i'm seeing here, Solariken that revised write up does look good. A few additions that I think could fit could be things like:

Making Jabs interrupt, its a flurry of spear attacks, a channeled skill in that should be denied.

Perhaps make one of the shield morphs a preemptive buff like defensive rune that procs on damage, making sure the templar gets the shield up when they need it.

Another idea would be to make one of the shields no longer a shield but a mid duration 8% damage reduction and if you took x amount of damage in that time it could either automatically or with a synergy/recast, make a strong pbaoe damage/knockback for better crowd control.

I really think the class has a lot of areas they could be made far more interesting in, just hope this doesn't become another year of silence from ZOS.

You guys have done an amazing job with the Thieves Guild patch. Although I have not had the chance to play it yet, I have been very busy with my business and taking a snowboarding trip tomorrow, I have looked over the patch notes and am very impressed. You definitely listened to my feedback as well as that of many other pvp players.

The feedback on the forums is very mixed, particularly because the masses are generally biased towards their own class and can't adapt to changes very well. Every balance patch renews the game and makes it fun again (by changing the way it plays), but also angers a vocal minority who cant deal with change.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VNGFep6rncY

When it comes to high performance, the masses are always wrong. Consulting the masses on balance issues is a mistake, as their bias and lack of understanding will always lead to suggestions that are incorrect. Consulting with high performing players regarding balance is a much better route. At the same time, you want to keep the masses happy, because they comprise the majority of your playerbase. I think you guys have done that with this patch, it looks quite amazing, addresses major issues, has only minor nerfs that shouldnt rouse anger among the masses to a great extent, and provides a slightly new ruleset to keep the game new and refreshing. I always find myself hardly playing at all for a month or two before big content releases, and then finding renewed enthusiasm for the game after a big content patch, especially with balance changes.

Feedback:

I wont talk about everything in the patch, because that would take forever. Ill gives some feedback for templar/nb and the meta as a solo/small group oriented pvp player.

-Champion changes look great, and seem quite balanced. Physical damage was slightly superior in pvp on live, now it may be balanced or slightly inferior but I wont know until testing. I'd also suggest making flawless dawnbreaker morph physical damage now that there is physical damage reduction in the cp tree.

-Dark cloak and stealth have been given better counters, great changes here. I think flare still needs significant improvement, providing some kind of benefit other than just revealing enemies. My personal suggestion would be to make it similar to a stamina version of magelight, and having it slotted should provide minor brutality.

-Fantastic changes to breath of life, funnel health, purge, barrier, and other abilities which were making larger groups unkillable.

-The new pvp sets look amazing and fun, and finally give some options to pvp players besides agility and willpower. Of particular note is fasallas, which looks to be amazing and helps address overpowered pvp healing. The set is extremely well designed considering you have to sacrifice both damage and sustain in order to use it. This gives classes and builds that lack healing debuffs an alternate route to use it as well. The only problem here is that healing debuffs seem to be stacking, preventing players from healing completely. I do not think that major defile from something like death stroke, or disease enchants, should stack with fasallas curse. Additionally, dot ticks should not trigger fasallas curse because you should be able to counter the sets healing debuff by either cleansing or not using "active attacks" on the enemy until the curse wears off, then healing afterwards. The problem right now is that if you have a dot on the enemy, the curse will never wear off, and if u cleanse it, the dot you have on the enemy will cause the curse to reapply. Channeled, pulsing, and DOT damage should not continue to proc the curse. Healing debuffs should not stack with fasalas. The set needs to be kept with no cooldown however to remain worth using and befoul CP should improve the curse as it does major defile.

-Piercing Javelin and its morphs range increase was much needed but the ability still seems a little bit lacking, especially when compared to other class CC's like mass hysteria, streak, and petrify.

-Blazing spear and focused charge animations are too slow. Feel unresponsive as well.

-Jabs/Sweeps changes are great, however stamina templars are still in a tough place damage wise because burning light procs are magic damage, and dont seem to proc on damage shields. In addition, damage shields seem to negate the 170% damage modifier for jabs/sweeps on primary target. Seems that every stamina class has to deal with some procs/abilities being magic or elemental damage so thats fine, but something needs to be done for templars to have a reasonable method for dealing with damage shields. Biting jabs and puncturing sweeps absolutely need to be fixed to work on damage shields correctly, doing the proper 170% damage to the shield as well as properly proccing burning light. Finally, the 70% snare should apply from every single jab that hits, from the first to the last. Jabs/sweeps is extremely easy to dance around at high skill level pvp play, and has enough counters as is with things like hardy, thick skinned, and blade cloak. Moving out of jabs/sweeps is too easy, and any latency compounds this.

-Rune focus secondary effects falling off immediately after leaving the focus is fine, but the major resolve needs to last much longer than 8 seconds after leaving the focus. Things like shadow barrier have a near 100% uptime and are totally passive, yet rune focus makes you immobile and is worse on top of it. Having a stand your ground immobility rewarded mechanic is fine to differentiate the classes, particularly for the secondary effects such as magicka regain from channeled focus, or minor protection from the other morph, but the armor and spell resist buffs should last as long as others do: at least 20 seconds even if you leave the focus.

-Templar ultimates are horrible in pvp. There is almost no reason to use either morph of the aedric spear ultimate instead of either morph of dawnbreaker, or to use the healing ultimate instead of barrier. The improved range by 1m on the aedric sweep ultimate is insignificant and the ability still misses constantly, particularly when elevation changes are nearby, and doesnt hit dodge rollers like dawnbreaker. I would suggest lowering the ultimate cost to 50, fixing the fact that it doesnt hit targets, make it hit dodge rollers, and make one of the morphs do physical damage. Compare how bad this ultimate is in pvp to one of the best ultimates like death stroke.

-Restoring aura looks to be worthless in pvp. Repentance is good in groups but worthless as a solo player or dueler, and the other morph makes no sense because of tripots.

-The purifying ritual fix was great, the nerf was needed. This remains the templars strongest pvp ability and is class defining. The ability is so good that it is as class defining for templars as streak is for sorcerrors and fear is for nightblades.

-Many of the passives templars have seem worthless if you are a stamina templar

That is my feedback for now. Great Patch and I look forward to updates!

Soris wrote: »

@dodgehopper_ESO I dont see any reason why adding extra duration to BS will make it somewhat better. It sucks either way.

It would allow for preemptive use, and be a huge magicka savings. A Templar has to be far more intelligent about how he uses his shield because of this. Other players just fire and forget, recasting as needed. Its a big difference, and palpable when you play these other classes.

Derra wrote: »

Neoauspex wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

While i do agree that the twilight heal is strong (too strong in my opinion) i would not say it´s better than bol for pvp or pve simply bc of the fact that dead twilight = no heal.

Dead Templar also = no heal.

If you can oneshot a templar - yeah might be an argument. Does not work for me for some reason. Pets on the other hand are cannon fodder.

Don't pets also get Hardened Ward every time you cast it?

@Ra'Shtar I understand your sentiment but I'm pretty sure there's no way they're going to be able to make the changes we want by the time they release Thieves Guild. I feel the same way as you, we've been giving them Feedback since the very beginning about the class, and the changes in game rules and nerfs have actually served to make the class more and more clunky and irritating to play over time. We know this, but I don't think they know it. The silver lining in all of this is that it looks like all the other classes will be equal or better healers than Templar, which means maybe they'll actually revisit Templars and make them worth playing again. Until then I think my Templar is going to be my achievement gatherer and crafter. The whole process has just made me weary and frustrated, and I don't want my fun time to feel like that.

Class skills I use on my Stamina Dragonknight
Skill points spent: 54

Class skills I use on my Stamina Nightblade
Skill points spent: 50

Class skills I use on my Stamina Sorcerer
Skill points spent: 36

Class skills I use on my Stamina Templar
Skill points spent: 20

+/- a few here or there depending on the build.
Hope you notice the trend.

MissBizz wrote: »

BullNetch wrote: »

Radburn wrote: »

Suggestions for Breath of Life & Honor the Dead:

1. They should both self heal if the caster is at 50% - self preservation. Smart healing causes some grief when there are more than 4 players who are all getting smacked (pvp)
2. Have a crafted set with a 5 piece bonus that improves rushed ceremony adding 1 extra minor heal to both morphs. This would force Templars to "specialize" their build towards making BoL strong and at the same time make both morphs desirable.

This would suck. This ain't WoW, there are no class restricted sets.

The only guaranteed magicka self heals are blessing of protection(combat prayer/blessing of resto) and energy orb. Ward ally is the most powerful self bubble available to everyone.

with the major mending buff... templars could try slamming combat prayer like stam builds slam vigor.

cleanse/self bubble/slam combat prayer

@BullNetch Class specific sets do already exist. The Necropotence set increases max magicka while you have pets active. Sorcs are the only ones with pets.

NB shadows image is considered a pet

Concerning Eclipse and its morphs ...

I do not feel this skill will ever be useful as a reflect. It is functionally too similar to DK's Scales and Defensive Posture, while inherently inferior because it is not applied to oneself as a buff, but on the enemy. Without making it a poor man's Reflective Scales, I think it will always remain lackluster.

However, conceptually, it seems it was intended as a sort of anti-mage skill. We can keep that concept and design a better skill, I believe.
From a lore point of view, it makes a lot of sense to use an Eclipe, i.e., blocking out the sun, to stunt someone's Magicka. After all, if one is to believe these stories, the sun is merely a hole in Oblivion through which Magicka flows from Aetherius to Nirn.
So, somebody effected by Eclipse should simply lose their Magicka.

Eclipse
Envelop enemy in a lightless sphere, draining [x] Magicka per second for [y] seconds. Cannot regenerate Magicka through other means while affected.

Total Dark
Envelop enemy in a lightless sphere, draining [x] Magicka per second for [y] seconds from them and nearby allies. Cannot regenerate Magicka through other means while affected.

Unstable Core
Envelop enemy in a lightless sphere, draining [x] Magicka per second for [y] seconds. Cannot regenerate Magicka through other means while affected. Explodes for [z] magic damage when effect ends.

I'm not sure if this new effect, like the current Eclipse, should be CC-breakable. Cleanse, certainly.
If it remains breakable, there could be interesting considerations whether to spend the stamina to get rid of the effect, or let it run out and forfeit the magicka to keep the stamina.
If it is not brekable but only cleansable, a new group dynamic might evolve centered around Templars, where you want Templars in your PvP group to Eclipse enemy players as well as efficiently cleanse Eclipse put on your group members.

One way or the other, this change would have several advantages
- Gives Templars the opportunity to fill their function as anti-mages
- Fits Templars thematically as manipulators of light and the powers of the sun
- Unique debuff that is not merely a copy of other, better skills
- Both morphs discourage zerg gameplay

Of course, this change would make the skill useless in PvE. However, I do not see it being viable in either environment in its current state.

Joy_Division wrote: »

Dueled for about an hour or two and my biggest impression is that defensive morph of Eclipse (total dark) is noticeably worse than before. I have been using this skill forever and I felt naked because it no longer blocks spells. DK whips, NB concealed weapons and ...ehem ...soul tether! ... enemy templar charge/jabs, all this stuff was reflected and the trade for physical projectiles in no way makes up for that loss. A duel is the absolute best environment this skill is ever going to get as the one target restriction is irrelevant so there is no way I'd recommend any templar take this morph.

So it is worse after all then, @Joy_Division? Since it is single target, expensive, and has no penalty for breaking free/gaining CC immunity, at the least it should reflect all single target abilities and not just projectiles. I've posted suggestions before to make Eclipse better many times (i.e. take a lot of damage for breaking free) but this seems to be a skill that gets little thought or that devs just don't know what to do with.

Ffastyl wrote: »

In regards to Blinding Light.

I see most people who mention this ability refer to it by the morph Blinding Flashes, creating the notion that this was the better morph.
Blinding Light applied a 50% miss chance to enemies in a 5m radius for 6 seconds.
Searing Light added a small damage effect on cast. In the game's current state, this could be used to de-cloak Nightblades.
Blinding Flashes changed the skill to pulse every 2 seconds, reapplying the 50% miss chance. What was not mentioned in the tooltip is the duration of the miss chance debuff was also reduced to 2 seconds, requiring you maintain the enemy in that 5m radius for at least 4 seconds to get the full 6 seconds provided by the base skill.

The Major Evasion component keeps Blinding Light as a viable defense against attacks of all ranges while the miss chance in melee range attunes it to the intent of being a melee counter. The dodge chance for the caster given both Major Evasion and 10% miss chance is

20% + 10% = 30% (if additive) 1 - (0.9 * 0.8) = 28% (if multiplicative)

Not frustrating numbers like 50% but higher than other classes can achieve, potentially providing Templar with another iconic skill. The high cost and short miss chance duration is to deter it from being consistently reapplied. At ~4k Magicka, a 15 second Major Evasion is a good trade off but as seen in Blazing Shield, too high a cost for repeated usage in the short duration to maintain the additional 10% miss chance.

An outlier to this cost model is Light Armor. Reducing spell cost by 21% at 7 pieces, Blinding Light and morphs would cost 2925 Magicka. This is drastically lower than the cost for Medium Armor and Heavy Armor, the builds that will need this defense the most. Light Armor is low on Physical Resistance however, and Blinding Light requires being in melee range to achieve its full effect. Time and testing will tell if the risk is balanced for Light Armor.

@Ffastyl I've suggested giving Healing Ritual a bright animation and adding in Major Evasion (tossing in Minor Maim to affected targets would be a nice touch). Could help with two problems in one fix.

Personally, I think Dark Flare animation should be a Kamehameha but it is what it is

Serious note though, there were some really good comments in the past few pages - especially the one about using only ~20 skill points on Templar. I hope something like that hopes drive home the point we're all trying to make in sometimes eloquent and sometimes not so eloquent ways. Probably also best to stick to shorter, not "complete overhaul" ideas that a dev could actually change in the short period of time we have to potentially make an impact.

1) My biggest ask would be for Rune Focus (and morphs) to simply act like Lightning Form (and morphs) - stick to you, and give some sort of Expedition for a short period of time.

2) Second one is for Balanced Warrior to be balanced - aka increase spell damage like every other class has access to.

3) Make the ultimates feel ultimate - I feel like the Aedric Spear line is the most "focused" on it's true intent of the 3 branches, with passives that moreso support the abilities than the other 2. Crescent Sweep is such a letdown in a skill line that otherwise is pretty solid.

4) Stamplar options - not going to belabor this point, and I feel like Stam sorcs are also in a similar boat

5) More buff/debuff options either through spells/abilities or through passives - Templar in my mind should be the buff/debuff class with lots of minor/major options that aid a group and hinder the opposition

tinythinker wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Dueled for about an hour or two and my biggest impression is that defensive morph of Eclipse (total dark) is noticeably worse than before. I have been using this skill forever and I felt naked because it no longer blocks spells. DK whips, NB concealed weapons and ...ehem ...soul tether! ... enemy templar charge/jabs, all this stuff was reflected and the trade for physical projectiles in no way makes up for that loss. A duel is the absolute best environment this skill is ever going to get as the one target restriction is irrelevant so there is no way I'd recommend any templar take this morph.

So it is worse after all then, @Joy_Division? Since it is single target, expensive, and has no penalty for breaking free/gaining CC immunity, at the least it should reflect all single target abilities and not just projectiles. I've posted suggestions before to make Eclipse better many times (i.e. take a lot of damage for breaking free) but this seems to be a skill that gets little thought or that devs just don't know what to do with.

In my opinion, yes the Total Dark morph is worse. It was useful previously very useful against all magical builds and even could occasionally get some stamina players who didn't bother breaking it to soul tether themselves. Now the only opponent now that is would be worth casting against is a sorcerer.

The Unstable Core version is ... I suppose a buff when looked at from strictly the perspective of Live. BUT ... consider back in Jul 2015, I was able to spam the spell as much as I wanted to AND had it reflect all spells, so it's hard for me to get all excited about it because that amounts to a net nerf.

I think you are right, the devs dont seem to know what to do with it. This skill is hard to implement and balance in PvP because of the break free mechanic.

Joy_Division wrote: »

tinythinker wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Dueled for about an hour or two and my biggest impression is that defensive morph of Eclipse (total dark) is noticeably worse than before. I have been using this skill forever and I felt naked because it no longer blocks spells. DK whips, NB concealed weapons and ...ehem ...soul tether! ... enemy templar charge/jabs, all this stuff was reflected and the trade for physical projectiles in no way makes up for that loss. A duel is the absolute best environment this skill is ever going to get as the one target restriction is irrelevant so there is no way I'd recommend any templar take this morph.

So it is worse after all then, @Joy_Division? Since it is single target, expensive, and has no penalty for breaking free/gaining CC immunity, at the least it should reflect all single target abilities and not just projectiles. I've posted suggestions before to make Eclipse better many times (i.e. take a lot of damage for breaking free) but this seems to be a skill that gets little thought or that devs just don't know what to do with.

In my opinion, yes the Total Dark morph is worse. It was useful previously very useful against all magical builds and even could occasionally get some stamina players who didn't bother breaking it to soul tether themselves. Now the only opponent now that is would be worth casting against is a sorcerer.

The Unstable Core version is ... I suppose a buff when looked at from strictly the perspective of Live. BUT ... consider back in Jul 2015, I was able to spam the spell as much as I wanted to AND had it reflect all spells, so it's hard for me to get all excited about it because that amounts to a net nerf.

I think you are right, the devs dont seem to know what to do with it. This skill is hard to implement and balance in PvP because of the break free mechanic.

Hard to balance in pvp, and its fairly useless in pve (the mobs that actually hurt enough where its necessary, are immune).