Official Feedback Thread for Templars

BullNetch · February 2016

This is what I don't get.

ESO is a PVE heavy game. Yet, ZOS nerfs BOL because of crying from PVP gameplay streamers.

Why not just nerf BoL in PVP only? They already nerfed healing in PVP.

How about keeping the BoL nerf exclusive to Cyrodill?

BoL... heals 2 extra allies in PVE, only 1 in PVP.

BoL is the most popular healing spell on the most popular healing class and it gets nerfed in the PTS for a PVE expansion.

Katinas · February 2016

@ZOS_GinaBruno

Healing Ritual: Reduced the cast time for this ability and its morphs by 25%, and reduced the healing done by 25%.

This skill needs a major rethink. The heal is strong but using it puts your group in more danger by using it than not. What it should be is a heal over time with a strong initial heal on cast and two more heal ticks after every 0.5 sec with and additional heal tick for the Lingering Ritual morph of this skill.

Rune Focus: Revised the tooltips for this ability and its morphs to indicate that the Major Ward and Major Resolve buffs will stick to you for 8 seconds after leaving the rune, while the morph effects of Channeled Focus and Restoring Focus require you to remain in the rune at all times.

Now that I finally lifted my jaw off the floor I can say that this is the worst thing you could come up with.
Other three class abilities that provide Major Resolve and Major Ward actually provide the respective classes either mobility or survivability. Speed buff or dodge chance for Nightblades, damage to enemies or shield for Dragonknights, damage to enemies or speed buff to Sorcerers. Templars, the class with very limited mobility, are now encouraged to stand still and become sitting ducks in a circle. Where is the logic in that? Please change it to be character based ability, not an area based one.

kaalmoth · February 2016

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

tinythinker wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Dueled for about an hour or two and my biggest impression is that defensive morph of Eclipse (total dark) is noticeably worse than before. I have been using this skill forever and I felt naked because it no longer blocks spells. DK whips, NB concealed weapons and ...ehem ...soul tether! ... enemy templar charge/jabs, all this stuff was reflected and the trade for physical projectiles in no way makes up for that loss. A duel is the absolute best environment this skill is ever going to get as the one target restriction is irrelevant so there is no way I'd recommend any templar take this morph.

So it is worse after all then, @Joy_Division? Since it is single target, expensive, and has no penalty for breaking free/gaining CC immunity, at the least it should reflect all single target abilities and not just projectiles. I've posted suggestions before to make Eclipse better many times (i.e. take a lot of damage for breaking free) but this seems to be a skill that gets little thought or that devs just don't know what to do with.

In my opinion, yes the Total Dark morph is worse. It was useful previously very useful against all magical builds and even could occasionally get some stamina players who didn't bother breaking it to soul tether themselves. Now the only opponent now that is would be worth casting against is a sorcerer.

The Unstable Core version is ... I suppose a buff when looked at from strictly the perspective of Live. BUT ... consider back in Jul 2015, I was able to spam the spell as much as I wanted to AND had it reflect all spells, so it's hard for me to get all excited about it because that amounts to a net nerf.

I think you are right, the devs dont seem to know what to do with it. This skill is hard to implement and balance in PvP because of the break free mechanic.

Hard to balance in pvp, and its fairly useless in pve (the mobs that actually hurt enough where its necessary, are immune).

Just to be clear, total dark now reflects physical ranged attacks and spells, but no longer reflects whip and stuff?

Cinbri · February 2016

kaalmoth wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

tinythinker wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Dueled for about an hour or two and my biggest impression is that defensive morph of Eclipse (total dark) is noticeably worse than before. I have been using this skill forever and I felt naked because it no longer blocks spells. DK whips, NB concealed weapons and ...ehem ...soul tether! ... enemy templar charge/jabs, all this stuff was reflected and the trade for physical projectiles in no way makes up for that loss. A duel is the absolute best environment this skill is ever going to get as the one target restriction is irrelevant so there is no way I'd recommend any templar take this morph.

So it is worse after all then, @Joy_Division? Since it is single target, expensive, and has no penalty for breaking free/gaining CC immunity, at the least it should reflect all single target abilities and not just projectiles. I've posted suggestions before to make Eclipse better many times (i.e. take a lot of damage for breaking free) but this seems to be a skill that gets little thought or that devs just don't know what to do with.

In my opinion, yes the Total Dark morph is worse. It was useful previously very useful against all magical builds and even could occasionally get some stamina players who didn't bother breaking it to soul tether themselves. Now the only opponent now that is would be worth casting against is a sorcerer.

The Unstable Core version is ... I suppose a buff when looked at from strictly the perspective of Live. BUT ... consider back in Jul 2015, I was able to spam the spell as much as I wanted to AND had it reflect all spells, so it's hard for me to get all excited about it because that amounts to a net nerf.

I think you are right, the devs dont seem to know what to do with it. This skill is hard to implement and balance in PvP because of the break free mechanic.

Hard to balance in pvp, and its fairly useless in pve (the mobs that actually hurt enough where its necessary, are immune).

Just to be clear, total dark now reflects physical ranged attacks and spells, but no longer reflects whip and stuff?

yes, whip and rest of melee spells.

kaalmoth · February 2016

god why?? another stupid nerf...

AfkNinja · February 2016

kaalmoth wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

tinythinker wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Dueled for about an hour or two and my biggest impression is that defensive morph of Eclipse (total dark) is noticeably worse than before. I have been using this skill forever and I felt naked because it no longer blocks spells. DK whips, NB concealed weapons and ...ehem ...soul tether! ... enemy templar charge/jabs, all this stuff was reflected and the trade for physical projectiles in no way makes up for that loss. A duel is the absolute best environment this skill is ever going to get as the one target restriction is irrelevant so there is no way I'd recommend any templar take this morph.

So it is worse after all then, @Joy_Division? Since it is single target, expensive, and has no penalty for breaking free/gaining CC immunity, at the least it should reflect all single target abilities and not just projectiles. I've posted suggestions before to make Eclipse better many times (i.e. take a lot of damage for breaking free) but this seems to be a skill that gets little thought or that devs just don't know what to do with.

In my opinion, yes the Total Dark morph is worse. It was useful previously very useful against all magical builds and even could occasionally get some stamina players who didn't bother breaking it to soul tether themselves. Now the only opponent now that is would be worth casting against is a sorcerer.

The Unstable Core version is ... I suppose a buff when looked at from strictly the perspective of Live. BUT ... consider back in Jul 2015, I was able to spam the spell as much as I wanted to AND had it reflect all spells, so it's hard for me to get all excited about it because that amounts to a net nerf.

I think you are right, the devs dont seem to know what to do with it. This skill is hard to implement and balance in PvP because of the break free mechanic.

Hard to balance in pvp, and its fairly useless in pve (the mobs that actually hurt enough where its necessary, are immune).

Just to be clear, total dark now reflects physical ranged attacks and spells, but no longer reflects whip and stuff?

It now reflects only projectiles, stamina or magic.

bikerangelo · February 2016

Joy_Division wrote: »

tinythinker wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Dueled for about an hour or two and my biggest impression is that defensive morph of Eclipse (total dark) is noticeably worse than before. I have been using this skill forever and I felt naked because it no longer blocks spells. DK whips, NB concealed weapons and ...ehem ...soul tether! ... enemy templar charge/jabs, all this stuff was reflected and the trade for physical projectiles in no way makes up for that loss. A duel is the absolute best environment this skill is ever going to get as the one target restriction is irrelevant so there is no way I'd recommend any templar take this morph.

So it is worse after all then, @Joy_Division? Since it is single target, expensive, and has no penalty for breaking free/gaining CC immunity, at the least it should reflect all single target abilities and not just projectiles. I've posted suggestions before to make Eclipse better many times (i.e. take a lot of damage for breaking free) but this seems to be a skill that gets little thought or that devs just don't know what to do with.

In my opinion, yes the Total Dark morph is worse. It was useful previously very useful against all magical builds and even could occasionally get some stamina players who didn't bother breaking it to soul tether themselves. Now the only opponent now that is would be worth casting against is a sorcerer.

The Unstable Core version is ... I suppose a buff when looked at from strictly the perspective of Live. BUT ... consider back in Jul 2015, I was able to spam the spell as much as I wanted to AND had it reflect all spells, so it's hard for me to get all excited about it because that amounts to a net nerf.

I think you are right, the devs dont seem to know what to do with it. This skill is hard to implement and balance in PvP because of the break free mechanic.

The entire skill is a waste of magicka and time, very similar to the previous version of Fossilize (but at least they fixed Fossilize). I've never used it in open world because of how unreliable it is, for me at least. The Unstable Core morph is also gimped by the passive that increases the duration of Dawn's Wrath abilities, so this morph was definitely not thought out. Since it's in the Dawn's Wrath tree, I'd rather have a buff that increases my spell damage than a buggy skill that doesn't even work properly.
Make the skill still apply magic damage if the target is CC immune and when the target breaks out of it, otherwise it will be unused in this patch.

Essiaga · February 2016

Docmandu wrote: »

Did some runs on templar on PTS... some thoughts (PvP oriented):

- Total Dark went from somewhat useful skill, to totally useless -- post edit: meant Unstable Core here
- Purifying Light.. won't be using that one anymore in PvP. Wasn't great before, but now it's pointless.
- Actually preferred jabs how it was before.. hardly notice the snare on people.. think this skill should at least be uninterruptable / unbashable.
- Range increase on javelin is nice
- Radiant ward... ROFL! nope... like NO!
- Sweep ultimate, meh.. think people will stick to dawnbreaker / meteor

So templars got a buff to dark flare and that's about it it seems ... It will be nerfed before Dark Brotherhood drops as well.

Cinbri · February 2016

bikerangelo wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

tinythinker wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Dueled for about an hour or two and my biggest impression is that defensive morph of Eclipse (total dark) is noticeably worse than before. I have been using this skill forever and I felt naked because it no longer blocks spells. DK whips, NB concealed weapons and ...ehem ...soul tether! ... enemy templar charge/jabs, all this stuff was reflected and the trade for physical projectiles in no way makes up for that loss. A duel is the absolute best environment this skill is ever going to get as the one target restriction is irrelevant so there is no way I'd recommend any templar take this morph.

So it is worse after all then, @Joy_Division? Since it is single target, expensive, and has no penalty for breaking free/gaining CC immunity, at the least it should reflect all single target abilities and not just projectiles. I've posted suggestions before to make Eclipse better many times (i.e. take a lot of damage for breaking free) but this seems to be a skill that gets little thought or that devs just don't know what to do with.

In my opinion, yes the Total Dark morph is worse. It was useful previously very useful against all magical builds and even could occasionally get some stamina players who didn't bother breaking it to soul tether themselves. Now the only opponent now that is would be worth casting against is a sorcerer.

The Unstable Core version is ... I suppose a buff when looked at from strictly the perspective of Live. BUT ... consider back in Jul 2015, I was able to spam the spell as much as I wanted to AND had it reflect all spells, so it's hard for me to get all excited about it because that amounts to a net nerf.

I think you are right, the devs dont seem to know what to do with it. This skill is hard to implement and balance in PvP because of the break free mechanic.

The entire skill is a waste of magicka and time, very similar to the previous version of Fossilize (but at least they fixed Fossilize). I've never used it in open world because of how unreliable it is, for me at least. The Unstable Core morph is also gimped by the passive that increases the duration of Dawn's Wrath abilities, so this morph was definitely not thought out. Since it's in the Dawn's Wrath tree, I'd rather have a buff that increases my spell damage than a buggy skill that doesn't even work properly.
Make the skill still apply magic damage if the target is CC immune and when the target breaks out of it, otherwise it will be unused in this patch.

You just gave awesome idea: Unstable Core - instead of useless thing it doing now, make it work as Fossilize = stun through block. We only class without "cc through block" mechanic and Luminous Shards that break immideatley after applying cc in most of situations is hardly counted as CC.

AfkNinja · February 2016

Essiaga wrote: »

Docmandu wrote: »

Did some runs on templar on PTS... some thoughts (PvP oriented):

- Total Dark went from somewhat useful skill, to totally useless -- post edit: meant Unstable Core here
- Purifying Light.. won't be using that one anymore in PvP. Wasn't great before, but now it's pointless.
- Actually preferred jabs how it was before.. hardly notice the snare on people.. think this skill should at least be uninterruptable / unbashable.
- Range increase on javelin is nice
- Radiant ward... ROFL! nope... like NO!
- Sweep ultimate, meh.. think people will stick to dawnbreaker / meteor

So templars got a buff to dark flare and that's about it it seems ... It will be nerfed before Dark Brotherhood drops as well.

Dark flare buff and Major Mending for Stamplar. The others are mostly irrelevant.

CP5 · February 2016

Just had an idea for total dark. How about while active it places a snare on the target, and if broken causes an aoe root centered on the target. Could be helpful in controlling both single targets and stacked groups.

AriBoh · February 2016

We will be performing maintenance for patch 2.3.1 on the PTS on Tuesday at 10:00AM EST (15:00 GMT).

Second round of nerfs incoming I bet

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-W6as8oVcuM

bikerangelo · February 2016

Cinbri wrote: »

bikerangelo wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

tinythinker wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Dueled for about an hour or two and my biggest impression is that defensive morph of Eclipse (total dark) is noticeably worse than before. I have been using this skill forever and I felt naked because it no longer blocks spells. DK whips, NB concealed weapons and ...ehem ...soul tether! ... enemy templar charge/jabs, all this stuff was reflected and the trade for physical projectiles in no way makes up for that loss. A duel is the absolute best environment this skill is ever going to get as the one target restriction is irrelevant so there is no way I'd recommend any templar take this morph.

So it is worse after all then, @Joy_Division? Since it is single target, expensive, and has no penalty for breaking free/gaining CC immunity, at the least it should reflect all single target abilities and not just projectiles. I've posted suggestions before to make Eclipse better many times (i.e. take a lot of damage for breaking free) but this seems to be a skill that gets little thought or that devs just don't know what to do with.

In my opinion, yes the Total Dark morph is worse. It was useful previously very useful against all magical builds and even could occasionally get some stamina players who didn't bother breaking it to soul tether themselves. Now the only opponent now that is would be worth casting against is a sorcerer.

The Unstable Core version is ... I suppose a buff when looked at from strictly the perspective of Live. BUT ... consider back in Jul 2015, I was able to spam the spell as much as I wanted to AND had it reflect all spells, so it's hard for me to get all excited about it because that amounts to a net nerf.

I think you are right, the devs dont seem to know what to do with it. This skill is hard to implement and balance in PvP because of the break free mechanic.

The entire skill is a waste of magicka and time, very similar to the previous version of Fossilize (but at least they fixed Fossilize). I've never used it in open world because of how unreliable it is, for me at least. The Unstable Core morph is also gimped by the passive that increases the duration of Dawn's Wrath abilities, so this morph was definitely not thought out. Since it's in the Dawn's Wrath tree, I'd rather have a buff that increases my spell damage than a buggy skill that doesn't even work properly.
Make the skill still apply magic damage if the target is CC immune and when the target breaks out of it, otherwise it will be unused in this patch.

You just gave awesome idea: Unstable Core - instead of useless thing it doing now, make it work as Fossilize = stun through block. We only class without "cc through block" mechanic and Luminous Shards that break immideatley after applying cc in most of situations is hardly counted as CC.

There is that "rune cage" thing the resource mage guards do, why can't we have that.

Jesh · February 2016

I think the BoL nerf is a bit of a problem. Others have suggest diminishing the % of the last heal and I think that is a really good suggestion (1st 100%, 2nd 50%, 3rd 25%), instead of getting rid of it all together. If BoL is a problem in PvP then maybe have it scale inversely to group size (as your group size increases above 4 the healing done to the 3rd member is reduced by 5% ~or whatever~ for every additional group member).
I understand the need to balance PvP groups, but for dungeons (and i know that I don't need BoL to heal dungeons) in particular the tough ones, it is still an important skill for a Templar to have.

Just my opinion and feedback.

BalticBlues · February 2016

Dear devs,

please read this story from the field to learn why nerfing BOL will kill a lot of fun in PvE.

Today's vet pledge was Banished Cells. I love the story and mechanics of this dungeon.

With my regular V16 vet group this dungeon is not difficult at all to heal.
Our V16 vet group would probably hardly notice the BOL nerf,
because the players are so good and BOL is so expensive that I hardly use it.

However, this changes drastically with PUGs (which I do regulary for training).
Today, ESO gave me this PUG for Banished Cells (auto leveled to V16):

a V16 DK Tank (very good, exactly knowing what to do)
a V16 Templar Healer (me, also knowing what to do)
a V1 Sorc DD (solid new veteran player)
a V1 NB DD (solid new veteran player)

This is an interesting constellation where two veterans help two newcomers into the game.
Problem: The V1 players were solid, but their damage was absolutely lacking.
As a result, as a healer I had to DD as much as I did heal.
This is extremely resource demanding, but also extreme fun - if it works.

We failed two times on the final Boss Rilis. The third try then probably was the most intense battle I had in ages, where at the end we had not 3 Daedroth running around spitting fire as needed for the Gold key, but probaby 7-9 Daedroth running around. It was like a flood, I could not count them anymore. The Tank was absolutely incredible keeping the Daedroth together, while I did my best to heal this fire mess and support the two V1 DDs in doing damage.

During this "Banished Cell's battle of all times", three times players died, but we could revive them. When about the 5th Daedroth showed up, I noticed that I was running out of magicka, starting to use potions to do damage and heal at the same time. At the end of the battle, with about 7-9 Daedroth, I was out of magicka and could not heal anymore. Exactly at this moment, we managed to kill the Boss with a last epic try. It was a PvE moment of absolute relief and triumph, especially for the new V1 players, but also for us veterans who could not remember seeing so many Daedroth in this dungeon ever.

Now the sad part: This huge battle with its huge fun would not have been possible at all with the BOL nerf. With the crippled BOL healing 25% less (costing 25% more), I would have been low on magicka much sooner, so that I could not have done enough damage to support the two V1 DDs. The result would definately have been failure.

So is it really advisable to nerf BOL and ruin this much fun in PUGS? From my experience, for most players PvE is the most important aspect of the game. Therefore it is of most importance to have a PvE that works, a PvE that is demanding and fun for PUGS at the same time.

I know that some PvP players find BOL too strong, demanding a nerf. However, for most players PvE is still of greater importance, and crippling PvE via nerfing BOL is not an option. I also know, great PvE players like Deltia say BOL is too easy and can use a nerf, but I doubt that these pro players usually run with PUGS in their professional time. Yes, for a vet pro group BOL may be too easy, but for PUGS the unnerfed BOL is essential.

Remember, we all started as beginners. The most of us failed the first times in vet dungeons. However, we still could see a light to continue trying. A light as in the described battle above, where we failed two times but still had the feeling it could be possible. To have a full, reliable BOL is part of what gives PUGS this light of hope. Please do not take away this light from us, because PvE would massively suffer.

Thanks for reading.

SirDopey · February 2016

AfkNinja wrote: »

kaalmoth wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

tinythinker wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Dueled for about an hour or two and my biggest impression is that defensive morph of Eclipse (total dark) is noticeably worse than before. I have been using this skill forever and I felt naked because it no longer blocks spells. DK whips, NB concealed weapons and ...ehem ...soul tether! ... enemy templar charge/jabs, all this stuff was reflected and the trade for physical projectiles in no way makes up for that loss. A duel is the absolute best environment this skill is ever going to get as the one target restriction is irrelevant so there is no way I'd recommend any templar take this morph.

So it is worse after all then, @Joy_Division? Since it is single target, expensive, and has no penalty for breaking free/gaining CC immunity, at the least it should reflect all single target abilities and not just projectiles. I've posted suggestions before to make Eclipse better many times (i.e. take a lot of damage for breaking free) but this seems to be a skill that gets little thought or that devs just don't know what to do with.

In my opinion, yes the Total Dark morph is worse. It was useful previously very useful against all magical builds and even could occasionally get some stamina players who didn't bother breaking it to soul tether themselves. Now the only opponent now that is would be worth casting against is a sorcerer.

The Unstable Core version is ... I suppose a buff when looked at from strictly the perspective of Live. BUT ... consider back in Jul 2015, I was able to spam the spell as much as I wanted to AND had it reflect all spells, so it's hard for me to get all excited about it because that amounts to a net nerf.

I think you are right, the devs dont seem to know what to do with it. This skill is hard to implement and balance in PvP because of the break free mechanic.

Hard to balance in pvp, and its fairly useless in pve (the mobs that actually hurt enough where its necessary, are immune).

Just to be clear, total dark now reflects physical ranged attacks and spells, but no longer reflects whip and stuff?

It now reflects only projectiles, stamina or magic.

Has that been tested? Apple still has my mac so can't get on PTS for another day or so. The only time I used Eclipse was against magic NBs and Overload, if it doesn't reflect concealed weapon anymore then yes, another major nerf....

acw37162 · February 2016

Post 526, thumbs up.

Funny thing about PVP, not only did BOL and Funnel health get adjusted, major mending also got adjusted, and the PVP set with this DLC that absolutely destroys healers.

Healing took a three part hit. The gear set alone was enough to get to live to see if component pvp'ers could use Fasallas Guise to cripple then head hunt healers but with all three it's going to be to much.

This is something you really won't see on test but about two to three weeks live healers and PVP will be regularly crushed meantime PVE healing took it in the short shorts.

All if these changes would have been served incrementally all three are going to be huge ouch.

Radburn · February 2016

I feel as if my Magicka Templar suffers right now due to the amount of CC & mobility available to every other class. Its like we're fighting in the wrong weight class at a disadvantage.

Thoughts on this:

What if.... one of the morphs of rune focus made Templars immune to stun + fear + snares while they stood in the 5 meter radius. That would make us able to "stand our ground."

CP5 · February 2016

Radburn wrote: »

I feel as if my Magicka Templar suffers right now due to the amount of CC & mobility available to every other class. Its like we're fighting in the wrong weight class at a disadvantage.

Thoughts on this:

What if.... one of the morphs of rune focus made Templars immune to stun + fear + snares while they stood in the 5 meter radius. That would make us able to "stand our ground."

I like that idea. This game demands movement so much to stay alive, being able to have a real 'hold your ground' option would be amazing. Doubt anyone would be able to find ways to exploit that kind of a buff given the fact that their opponents could just lay down several aoe's on them.

DHale · February 2016

BalticBlues wrote: »

Dear devs,

please read this story from the field to learn why nerfing BOL will kill a lot of fun in PvE.

Today's vet pledge was Banished Cells. I love the story and mechanics of this dungeon.

With my regular V16 vet group this dungeon is not difficult at all to heal.
Our V16 vet group would probably hardly notice the BOL nerf,
because the players are so good and BOL is so expensive that I hardly use it.

However, this changes drastically with PUGs (which I do regulary for training).
Today, ESO gave me this PUG for Banished Cells (auto leveled to V16):
a V16 DK Tank (very good, exactly knowing what to do)

a V16 Templar Healer (me, also knowing what to do)

a V1 Sorc DD (solid new veteran player)

a V1 NB DD (solid new veteran player)

This is an interesting constellation where two veterans help two newcomers into the game.
Problem: The V1 players were solid, but their damage was absolutely lacking.
As a result, as a healer I had to DD as much as I did heal.
This is extremely resource demanding, but also extreme fun - if it works.

We failed two times on the final Boss Rilis. The third try then probably was the most intense battle I had in ages, where at the end we had not 3 Daedroth running around spitting fire as needed for the Gold key, but probaby 7-9 Daedroth running around. It was like a flood, I could not count them anymore. The Tank was absolutely incredible keeping the Daedroth together, while I did my best to heal this fire mess and support the two V1 DDs in doing damage.

During this "Banished Cell's battle of all times", three times players died, but we could revive them. When about the 5th Daedroth showed up, I noticed that I was running out of magicka, starting to use potions to do damage and heal at the same time. At the end of the battle, with about 7-9 Daedroth, I was out of magicka and could not heal anymore. Exactly at this moment, we managed to kill the Boss with a last epic try. It was a PvE moment of absolute relief and triumph, especially for the new V1 players, but also for us veterans who could not remember seeing so many Daedroth in this dungeon ever.

Now the sad part: This huge battle with its huge fun would not have been possible at all with the BOL nerf. With the crippled BOL healing 25% less (costing 25% more), I would have been low on magicka much sooner, so that I could not have done enough damage to support the two V1 DDs. The result would definately have been failure.

So is it really advisable to nerf BOL and ruin this much fun in PUGS? From my experience, for most players PvE is the most important aspect of the game. Therefore it is of most importance to have a PvE that works, a PvE that is demanding and fun for PUGS at the same time.

I know that some PvP players find BOL too strong, demanding a nerf. However, for most players PvE is still of greater importance, and crippling PvE via nerfing BOL is not an option. I also know, great PvE players like Deltia say BOL is too easy and can use a nerf, but I doubt that these pro players usually run with PUGS in their professional time. Yes, for a vet pro group BOL may be too easy, but for PUGS the unnerfed BOL is essential.

Remember, we all started as beginners. The most of us failed the first times in vet dungeons. However, we still could see a light to continue trying. A light as in the described battle above, where we failed two times but still had the feeling it could be possible. To have a full, reliable BOL is part of what gives PUGS this light of hope. Please do not take away this light from us, because PvE would massively suffer.

Thanks for reading.

[/quote

It really tell me they don't want new ppl coming into the game. I won't heal pug groups anymore to much work for so little reward.

AfkNinja · February 2016

SirDopey wrote: »

AfkNinja wrote: »

kaalmoth wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

tinythinker wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Dueled for about an hour or two and my biggest impression is that defensive morph of Eclipse (total dark) is noticeably worse than before. I have been using this skill forever and I felt naked because it no longer blocks spells. DK whips, NB concealed weapons and ...ehem ...soul tether! ... enemy templar charge/jabs, all this stuff was reflected and the trade for physical projectiles in no way makes up for that loss. A duel is the absolute best environment this skill is ever going to get as the one target restriction is irrelevant so there is no way I'd recommend any templar take this morph.

So it is worse after all then, @Joy_Division? Since it is single target, expensive, and has no penalty for breaking free/gaining CC immunity, at the least it should reflect all single target abilities and not just projectiles. I've posted suggestions before to make Eclipse better many times (i.e. take a lot of damage for breaking free) but this seems to be a skill that gets little thought or that devs just don't know what to do with.

In my opinion, yes the Total Dark morph is worse. It was useful previously very useful against all magical builds and even could occasionally get some stamina players who didn't bother breaking it to soul tether themselves. Now the only opponent now that is would be worth casting against is a sorcerer.

The Unstable Core version is ... I suppose a buff when looked at from strictly the perspective of Live. BUT ... consider back in Jul 2015, I was able to spam the spell as much as I wanted to AND had it reflect all spells, so it's hard for me to get all excited about it because that amounts to a net nerf.

I think you are right, the devs dont seem to know what to do with it. This skill is hard to implement and balance in PvP because of the break free mechanic.

Hard to balance in pvp, and its fairly useless in pve (the mobs that actually hurt enough where its necessary, are immune).

Just to be clear, total dark now reflects physical ranged attacks and spells, but no longer reflects whip and stuff?

It now reflects only projectiles, stamina or magic.

Has that been tested? Apple still has my mac so can't get on PTS for another day or so. The only time I used Eclipse was against magic NBs and Overload, if it doesn't reflect concealed weapon anymore then yes, another major nerf....

It has been tested, not by me, it does not reflect Concealed Weapon anymore.

Edit: I am feeling rather ignored and abandoned as a Stamplar after this patch. I see no reason to sub anymore and I have no desire to play lately. It sucks because for the last year ++ this has been my go to game to relax at night and now I just don't even want to log in.

danno8 · February 2016

DHale wrote: »

BalticBlues wrote: »

Dear devs,

please read this story from the field to learn why nerfing BOL will kill a lot of fun in PvE.

Today's vet pledge was Banished Cells. I love the story and mechanics of this dungeon.

With my regular V16 vet group this dungeon is not difficult at all to heal.
Our V16 vet group would probably hardly notice the BOL nerf,
because the players are so good and BOL is so expensive that I hardly use it.

However, this changes drastically with PUGs (which I do regulary for training).
Today, ESO gave me this PUG for Banished Cells (auto leveled to V16):
a V16 DK Tank (very good, exactly knowing what to do)

a V16 Templar Healer (me, also knowing what to do)

a V1 Sorc DD (solid new veteran player)

a V1 NB DD (solid new veteran player)

This is an interesting constellation where two veterans help two newcomers into the game.
Problem: The V1 players were solid, but their damage was absolutely lacking.
As a result, as a healer I had to DD as much as I did heal.
This is extremely resource demanding, but also extreme fun - if it works.

We failed two times on the final Boss Rilis. The third try then probably was the most intense battle I had in ages, where at the end we had not 3 Daedroth running around spitting fire as needed for the Gold key, but probaby 7-9 Daedroth running around. It was like a flood, I could not count them anymore. The Tank was absolutely incredible keeping the Daedroth together, while I did my best to heal this fire mess and support the two V1 DDs in doing damage.

During this "Banished Cell's battle of all times", three times players died, but we could revive them. When about the 5th Daedroth showed up, I noticed that I was running out of magicka, starting to use potions to do damage and heal at the same time. At the end of the battle, with about 7-9 Daedroth, I was out of magicka and could not heal anymore. Exactly at this moment, we managed to kill the Boss with a last epic try. It was a PvE moment of absolute relief and triumph, especially for the new V1 players, but also for us veterans who could not remember seeing so many Daedroth in this dungeon ever.

Now the sad part: This huge battle with its huge fun would not have been possible at all with the BOL nerf. With the crippled BOL healing 25% less (costing 25% more), I would have been low on magicka much sooner, so that I could not have done enough damage to support the two V1 DDs. The result would definately have been failure.

So is it really advisable to nerf BOL and ruin this much fun in PUGS? From my experience, for most players PvE is the most important aspect of the game. Therefore it is of most importance to have a PvE that works, a PvE that is demanding and fun for PUGS at the same time.

I know that some PvP players find BOL too strong, demanding a nerf. However, for most players PvE is still of greater importance, and crippling PvE via nerfing BOL is not an option. I also know, great PvE players like Deltia say BOL is too easy and can use a nerf, but I doubt that these pro players usually run with PUGS in their professional time. Yes, for a vet pro group BOL may be too easy, but for PUGS the unnerfed BOL is essential.

Remember, we all started as beginners. The most of us failed the first times in vet dungeons. However, we still could see a light to continue trying. A light as in the described battle above, where we failed two times but still had the feeling it could be possible. To have a full, reliable BOL is part of what gives PUGS this light of hope. Please do not take away this light from us, because PvE would massively suffer.

Thanks for reading.

It really tell me they don't want new ppl coming into the game. I won't heal pug groups anymore to much work for so little reward.

Or they expect the Sorcerers to break out the Matriarch and help with healing? Not sure.

Leiloni · February 2016

Zheg wrote: »

Resto staff pretty much outshines every heal in the templar line now, which is bizarre considering what the purpose of that skill line is supposed to be for templars. I LIKE that resto staff is good now, but I don't see it being well balanced when templars have an entire skill line that is outshone by resto staff.

I have to disagree on this. I agree that Templar healing skills need some adjustments but there's still a few major things we have that Resto staff does not. The primary difference is the fact that Resto is primarily heal over time skills and one shield. Sure you can spam Healing Springs, but that's a small radius and going to take longer to get the full heal with spamming and the fact that it's a HoT and not instant. While were on that topic, Templar's AoEs are all larger in radius. Also Templar has more burst heals which come in handy in a lot of situations in both PvP and PvE to really save the day. We also still get a better cleanse/purify skill than they have (which they can only get via the Alliance War Support line). And of course there's the fact that we get Major Mending when they don't get any healing buff at all.

cazlonb16_ESO wrote: »

Even after sleeping on it I can't for the life of me understand how the people who designed the combat system in ESO could possibly think that the stationary gameplay they obviously envision for the Templar class can ever be viable. This applies to all aspects now - Dark Flare and Sweeps as primary damage abilities have a cast/channel time and snare the user, devs clearly think that Healing Ritual should be an integral part of healing and basically all class buffs are bound to location, a tiny circle in case of rune, a somewhat larger one for Cleansing Ritual.

How on earth is turning Templars into even more of sitting ducks, defenseless ones at that while casting, going to improve just about anything ? It's not like turret mode would provide any benefits other classes do not get while being mobile and able to use active defenses.

This is a much more important issue than individual buffs or nerfs, even hidden ones, because it shows a fundamental misunderstanding of the very basics of the combat gameplay in ESO.

Honestly I think they envisioned Templar's from the beginning as a heavy armor healer, Cleric style, able to withstand damage, stand in one spot, and dish out lots of healing. However the rest of the game doesn't really support that playstyle. I wouldn't honestly mind going that way if they made it viable, however their idea for the class and how the game actually works doesn't really match up.

They can certainly fix the heavy armor line and a few of our skills to make that work, or they can just fix our skills to make the current light armor fast moving style work, but they need to pick a vision and make it happen.

And actually now that I think about it, it'd be cool if the Cleric style would be the way they go. It might also be easier for them to balance with our current healing toolset and the way our skills are designed. You can always roll another class to be a light armored mage style healer, but if Templar was your Cleric/Paladin healer, that would further solidify our niche among healers.

dodgehopper_ESO · February 2016

Leiloni wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

Resto staff pretty much outshines every heal in the templar line now, which is bizarre considering what the purpose of that skill line is supposed to be for templars. I LIKE that resto staff is good now, but I don't see it being well balanced when templars have an entire skill line that is outshone by resto staff.

I have to disagree on this. I agree that Templar healing skills need some adjustments but there's still a few major things we have that Resto staff does not. The primary difference is the fact that Resto is primarily heal over time skills and one shield. Sure you can spam Healing Springs, but that's a small radius and going to take longer to get the full heal with spamming and the fact that it's a HoT and not instant. While were on that topic, Templar's AoEs are all larger in radius. Also Templar has more burst heals which come in handy in a lot of situations in both PvP and PvE to really save the day. We also still get a better cleanse/purify skill than they have (which they can only get via the Alliance War Support line). And of course there's the fact that we get Major Mending when they don't get any healing buff at all.

cazlonb16_ESO wrote: »

Even after sleeping on it I can't for the life of me understand how the people who designed the combat system in ESO could possibly think that the stationary gameplay they obviously envision for the Templar class can ever be viable. This applies to all aspects now - Dark Flare and Sweeps as primary damage abilities have a cast/channel time and snare the user, devs clearly think that Healing Ritual should be an integral part of healing and basically all class buffs are bound to location, a tiny circle in case of rune, a somewhat larger one for Cleansing Ritual.

How on earth is turning Templars into even more of sitting ducks, defenseless ones at that while casting, going to improve just about anything ? It's not like turret mode would provide any benefits other classes do not get while being mobile and able to use active defenses.

This is a much more important issue than individual buffs or nerfs, even hidden ones, because it shows a fundamental misunderstanding of the very basics of the combat gameplay in ESO.

Honestly I think they envisioned Templar's from the beginning as a heavy armor healer, Cleric style, able to withstand damage, stand in one spot, and dish out lots of healing. However the rest of the game doesn't really support that playstyle. I wouldn't honestly mind going that way if they made it viable, however their idea for the class and how the game actually works doesn't really match up.

They can certainly fix the heavy armor line and a few of our skills to make that work, or they can just fix our skills to make the current light armor fast moving style work, but they need to pick a vision and make it happen.

And actually now that I think about it, it'd be cool if the Cleric style would be the way they go. It might also be easier for them to balance with our current healing toolset and the way our skills are designed. You can always roll another class to be a light armored mage style healer, but if Templar was your Cleric/Paladin healer, that would further solidify our niche among healers.

What are you suggesting, that they make Templar better in general at being a Heavy Armor user?

maxjapank · February 2016

BalticBlues wrote: »

During this "Banished Cell's battle of all times", three times players died, but we could revive them. When about the 5th Daedroth showed up, I noticed that I was running out of magicka, starting to use potions to do damage and heal at the same time. At the end of the battle, with about 7-9 Daedroth, I was out of magicka and could not heal anymore. Exactly at this moment, we managed to kill the Boss with a last epic try. It was a PvE moment of absolute relief and triumph, especially for the new V1 players, but also for us veterans who could not remember seeing so many Daedroth in this dungeon ever.

Now the sad part: This huge battle with its huge fun would not have been possible at all with the BOL nerf. With the crippled BOL healing 25% less (costing 25% more), I would have been low on magicka much sooner, so that I could not have done enough damage to support the two V1 DDs. The result would definately have been failure.

This is a classic example of not understanding mechanics. Or...trying to bypass mechanics. I applaud you doing damage as a healer. But there is no reason to keep Daedroths alive until the boss is near 20%. So..kill them. When you think you can burn the boss down, then let 4 Daedroths come out and go at it. You know, this used to be how players beat this boss...when we were less powerful. But now players can put out so much damage that they can bypass mechanics.

acw37162 · February 2016

As short and simple as I could say it;

If Templars are supposed to be statues we need a skill or combinations of skills and/or passives that make being a statue extremely risky and not a death sentence.

Blinding flashes type dodge chance, aoe stun skill, toned down from its previous glory.

A skill that synergizes with sun shield and morphs to increase strength or heal a portion of damage recirved or reflect a portion of melee damage or something else entirely.

I would prefer not to be a statue and have a little bit of mobility but I'm not seeing the writing on the wall there.

M'Hael · February 2016

Total Dark needs to reflect Ranged Physical Skill based attacks, not just basic bow attacks as reported by PTS testers.

Zheg · February 2016

Leiloni wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

Resto staff pretty much outshines every heal in the templar line now, which is bizarre considering what the purpose of that skill line is supposed to be for templars. I LIKE that resto staff is good now, but I don't see it being well balanced when templars have an entire skill line that is outshone by resto staff.

I have to disagree on this. I agree that Templar healing skills need some adjustments but there's still a few major things we have that Resto staff does not. The primary difference is the fact that Resto is primarily heal over time skills and one shield. Sure you can spam Healing Springs, but that's a small radius and going to take longer to get the full heal with spamming and the fact that it's a HoT and not instant. While were on that topic, Templar's AoEs are all larger in radius. Also Templar has more burst heals which come in handy in a lot of situations in both PvP and PvE to really save the day. We also still get a better cleanse/purify skill than they have (which they can only get via the Alliance War Support line). And of course there's the fact that we get Major Mending when they don't get any healing buff at all.

Are you forgetting about Blessing of Restoration? It will put out significantly more healing than BoL and costs less. PVP healers will need to be on their game switching to this, but the translation for PVE should be simple considering most are stacked anyway.

Leiloni · February 2016

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Leiloni wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

Resto staff pretty much outshines every heal in the templar line now, which is bizarre considering what the purpose of that skill line is supposed to be for templars. I LIKE that resto staff is good now, but I don't see it being well balanced when templars have an entire skill line that is outshone by resto staff.

I have to disagree on this. I agree that Templar healing skills need some adjustments but there's still a few major things we have that Resto staff does not. The primary difference is the fact that Resto is primarily heal over time skills and one shield. Sure you can spam Healing Springs, but that's a small radius and going to take longer to get the full heal with spamming and the fact that it's a HoT and not instant. While were on that topic, Templar's AoEs are all larger in radius. Also Templar has more burst heals which come in handy in a lot of situations in both PvP and PvE to really save the day. We also still get a better cleanse/purify skill than they have (which they can only get via the Alliance War Support line). And of course there's the fact that we get Major Mending when they don't get any healing buff at all.

cazlonb16_ESO wrote: »

Even after sleeping on it I can't for the life of me understand how the people who designed the combat system in ESO could possibly think that the stationary gameplay they obviously envision for the Templar class can ever be viable. This applies to all aspects now - Dark Flare and Sweeps as primary damage abilities have a cast/channel time and snare the user, devs clearly think that Healing Ritual should be an integral part of healing and basically all class buffs are bound to location, a tiny circle in case of rune, a somewhat larger one for Cleansing Ritual.

How on earth is turning Templars into even more of sitting ducks, defenseless ones at that while casting, going to improve just about anything ? It's not like turret mode would provide any benefits other classes do not get while being mobile and able to use active defenses.

This is a much more important issue than individual buffs or nerfs, even hidden ones, because it shows a fundamental misunderstanding of the very basics of the combat gameplay in ESO.

Honestly I think they envisioned Templar's from the beginning as a heavy armor healer, Cleric style, able to withstand damage, stand in one spot, and dish out lots of healing. However the rest of the game doesn't really support that playstyle. I wouldn't honestly mind going that way if they made it viable, however their idea for the class and how the game actually works doesn't really match up.

They can certainly fix the heavy armor line and a few of our skills to make that work, or they can just fix our skills to make the current light armor fast moving style work, but they need to pick a vision and make it happen.

And actually now that I think about it, it'd be cool if the Cleric style would be the way they go. It might also be easier for them to balance with our current healing toolset and the way our skills are designed. You can always roll another class to be a light armored mage style healer, but if Templar was your Cleric/Paladin healer, that would further solidify our niche among healers.

What are you suggesting, that they make Templar better in general at being a Heavy Armor user?

Since we have so many skills that require us to stand still, along with a lack of defenses or CC, it would make more sense if we could just wear a sword/1h with heavy armor. Ideally that would make up for lack of defenses and CC, and a few skill tweaks to work with the idea of a more stationary healer when so many other people are not, along with changes to make heavy armor and sword/1h usable with magicka users (giving proper magicka benefits along with necessary defensive benefits).

They've been going down that route from the start of the game, always picturing the Templar as a heavy armor wearing Figher support class (they even still do it in character creation by giving them heavy armor), and giving us skills that lean towards that playstyle. Yet the rest of the game forces us into an entirely different playstyle with light armor and a desire for mobility.

Part of the reason why Templar has problems is because the class has an image crisis. ZOS needs to either a)go 100% into their original idea of the class being a heavy armor wearing caster healer class, akin to the classic archetypes of Clerics and Paladins, or b) dump the idea entirely and drastically change a lot of our skills to bend to the idea of a light magic based mage class similar to a Priest.

I think given the current class options it would make us stand out more if we could go with the Cleric/Paladin style, since there are plenty of mage style builds in the game already. It would give the game more diversity and it would make far more sense with this class (and help with balance issues). Either way, long term fixes IMO mean that ZOS needs to decide one way or another what archetype they want this class to represent.

Animal_Mother · February 2016

Leiloni wrote: »

Honestly I think they envisioned Templar's from the beginning as a heavy armor healer, Cleric style, able to withstand damage, stand in one spot, and dish out lots of healing. However the rest of the game doesn't really support that playstyle. I wouldn't honestly mind going that way if they made it viable, however their idea for the class and how the game actually works doesn't really match up.

They can certainly fix the heavy armor line and a few of our skills to make that work, or they can just fix our skills to make the current light armor fast moving style work, but they need to pick a vision and make it happen.

And actually now that I think about it, it'd be cool if the Cleric style would be the way they go. It might also be easier for them to balance with our current healing toolset and the way our skills are designed. You can always roll another class to be a light armored mage style healer, but if Templar was your Cleric/Paladin healer, that would further solidify our niche among healers.

I don't think it would necessarily involve fixing heavy armor. They could simply change one of our passives to providing a bonus to healing and Magicka regen for each piece of heavy armor.

Combined with @Radburn idea of an immunity rune and some hard cc, I would love the playstyle.