PTS Update 37 - Feedback Thread for Combat & Classes

CP5

It could be like One Tamriel all over again, when they introduced so many new sets to populate the zone specific pools with, or perhaps more reasonably just a handful every couple of patches. That'd probably be the change that gets me the most interested, balancing classes is important, but empowering interesting builds through combining the class with multiple sets would have so much more depth with more interesting options.

TechMaybeHic

CP5 wrote: »

It could be like One Tamriel all over again, when they introduced so many new sets to populate the zone specific pools with, or perhaps more reasonably just a handful every couple of patches. That'd probably be the change that gets me the most interested, balancing classes is important, but empowering interesting builds through combining the class with multiple sets would have so much more depth with more interesting options.

I couldn't disagree more. I feel like their need to introduce sets every update has had them creating the most broken stuff for years and all it has done is shift the power to the sets and away from the classes. An example is them releasing a set to do add damage on a DOT tick after nerfing Dots of classes a couple years ago.

They've been inflating power with sets and then nerfing classes and everything else like update 35 did.

CP5

True, but I suppose it just comes to me preferring to have multiple, perhaps overloaded options, as opposed to a countless number of nothing.

Marcus_Justicia

change spirit battle please, I find that the pvp is too slow to be instructive and enjoyable.

in my opinion the damage received is too low and the fights in 1 against 1 are generally very long.
reduce damage mitigation in Fighting Spirit and Undead (vampire 30%).

increase individual care to compensate

these changes once well regulated the pvp would become more punitive but more attractive.

This will help classes like sorc which are mostly direct damage based.

Pelanora

For quirky interesting sets to be fun and used, overland would need two levels. Trials will always channel people into the best possible sets.

Melzo

I suggest that the pets of sorcerers receive the same major and minor buffs that the sorcerer himself has. This will increase the survivability of pets. For example, it would be interesting to play a sorcerer with the Daedric Trickery set. Pets would get more protection and self-healing. Or give pets the default to give some buffs.

AndreNoir

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

these should be BIS on builds that focus on specific elemental damage types

no they shouldn't because It will be sets for sorcs, dk and warden

lQrukl

AndreNoir wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

these should be BIS on builds that focus on specific elemental damage types

no they shouldn't because It will be sets for sorcs, dk and warden

And so what? In which case is class identity worse than the same meta for all classes?

ESO_Nightingale

AndreNoir wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

these should be BIS on builds that focus on specific elemental damage types

no they shouldn't because It will be sets for sorcs, dk and warden

i don't see why that's a problem.

Pelanora

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/626694/everything-wrong-with-harmony-developer-comment#latest

chessalavakia_ESO

Regarding the light attacks change:


From a gameplay perspective the change is a meh item. Most of the builds I tested saw an increase of damage but it was generally around 1,000 on overland mobs.

If all you do is light attack, the change will help you by a noticeable amount but, otherwise I doubt it is going to really matter much in most content.

Ideologically, I'm not a fan of raising light attack damage while weaving is a thing because weaving is an abomination to me but...

Darkstorne

chessalavakia_ESO wrote: »

Regarding the light attacks change:

If all you do is light attack, the change will help you by a noticeable amount but, otherwise I doubt it is going to really matter much in most content.

That's... exactly what their goal was though?

There are a lot of new and casual players who play ESO like Skyrim/Oblivion/Morrowind, where light attacks are the majority of their attacks with a few skills sprinkled in for impact. So if they've managed to increase the damage of these players without inflating the damage of skilled players, then that's great news.

chessalavakia_ESO

Darkstorne wrote: »

chessalavakia_ESO wrote: »

Regarding the light attacks change:

If all you do is light attack, the change will help you by a noticeable amount but, otherwise I doubt it is going to really matter much in most content.

That's... exactly what their goal was though?

There are a lot of new and casual players who play ESO like Skyrim/Oblivion/Morrowind, where light attacks are the majority of their attacks with a few skills sprinkled in for impact. So if they've managed to increase the damage of these players without inflating the damage of skilled players, then that's great news.

Generally, my experience with newer players is that most lean towards ability usage and then shift towards the light/heavy attacks when they run dry.

I've heard about the new players primarily using light attacks on forums a ton but, I haven't actually seen many people that do so in-game that are actually new.

Some like you do deliberately run light attack builds but, I wouldn't really say it's at all common.

AndreNoir

lQrukl wrote: »

AndreNoir wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

these should be BIS on builds that focus on specific elemental damage types

no they shouldn't because It will be sets for sorcs, dk and warden

And so what? In which case is class identity worse than the same meta for all classes?

Yeah, cool, lets make a bunch of sets that are useless for everyone else except your beloved class because of imaginary "identity"

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

AndreNoir wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

these should be BIS on builds that focus on specific elemental damage types

no they shouldn't because It will be sets for sorcs, dk and warden

i don't see why that's a problem.

Flawless logic. I can say I don't see why their current state is a problem

Darkstorne

chessalavakia_ESO wrote: »

Darkstorne wrote: »

chessalavakia_ESO wrote: »

Regarding the light attacks change:

If all you do is light attack, the change will help you by a noticeable amount but, otherwise I doubt it is going to really matter much in most content.

That's... exactly what their goal was though?

There are a lot of new and casual players who play ESO like Skyrim/Oblivion/Morrowind, where light attacks are the majority of their attacks with a few skills sprinkled in for impact. So if they've managed to increase the damage of these players without inflating the damage of skilled players, then that's great news.

Generally, my experience with newer players is that most lean towards ability usage and then shift towards the light/heavy attacks when they run dry.

I've heard about the new players primarily using light attacks on forums a ton but, I haven't actually seen many people that do so in-game that are actually new.

Some like you do deliberately run light attack builds but, I wouldn't really say it's at all common.

Well, it's all anecdotal, but I've seen it first-hand when I tried getting my brother to play back when Elsweyr was the latest chapter. He's a huge TES fan, but hated the combat in ESO and dropped it almost instantly because he primarily light/heavy attacked and did barely any damage. All-white gear with no CP and light attacking must feel bad...

I also see it a lot in dungeons though. I'm a healer, so get to stand back a bit and control the battlefield with buffs/debuffs etc, and sometimes I notice my DPS accounts for like 20%+ of the group total. That's when you notice the bow and dual-wield light attackers

Presumably, ZOS has the data to see that this happens quite a lot. I'm sure there are also new players who use abilities a lot without light attack weaving too, but that's nowhere near as much of a damage-loss as light attack spamming is. So it definitely makes sense to lift the floor here and make the game more welcoming to those players while they learn how to play.

Hotdog_23

Give POTL Major Berserk instead of minor breech. Give templars a reason to slot it and use it.

Mr_Stach

AndreNoir wrote: »

lQrukl wrote: »

AndreNoir wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

these should be BIS on builds that focus on specific elemental damage types

no they shouldn't because It will be sets for sorcs, dk and warden

And so what? In which case is class identity worse than the same meta for all classes?

Yeah, cool, lets make a bunch of sets that are useless for everyone else except your beloved class because of imaginary "identity"

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

AndreNoir wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

these should be BIS on builds that focus on specific elemental damage types

no they shouldn't because It will be sets for sorcs, dk and warden

i don't see why that's a problem.

Flawless logic. I can say I don't see why their current state is a problem

Not sure what your argument is. Why shouldn't Elemental Sets be better? That would just be a net-positive for build diversity? And this goes beyond just Fire, Ice, and Lightning, but for Poison and Bleed also. That covers all classes.

Allow Elemental Focused builds to be better in general.

Fire with DK has been good for a long time, Frost with Warden is generally in a better spot. Lightning is not great, Poison and Bleed specific builds could probably use a bump too,
probably to a less degree since Stam is generally more powerful.

Another playstyle being better does not make other playstyles worse. It's just more fun for everyone.

marius_buys

When all you see in Cyrodiil are guys with pointy backs you may have an overtuned class neh?

PrinceShroob

I discussed Sorcerer with a friend who mains the class and we reached the following consensus regarding changes we'd like to see:

Passives:

• Persistence and Rebate: These passives are underwhelming and can conceivably be changed to be more useful. I am not proffering ideas for changes here because these passives are such nonentities that anything would be better.
• Daedric Protection, Expert Summoner, and Capacitor: Daedric Protection should be altered to provide a 20% increase to Magicka Regeneration while Capacitor is changed to provide a different bonus (for example, a bonus to Critical Chance, as others have suggested). Expert Summoner should provide its effect for having a Daedric Summoning ability slotted rather than active.
• Expert Mage: This really should provide 3% Weapon and Spell Damage. It's nonsensical that it provides less than generic Fighters Guild abilities.

Skills:

• Lightning Splash: We'd like to see Liquid Lightning changed to a 10-second skill that provides an Engulfing Flames-like effect for Shock Damage, but loses its synergy, while Lightning Flood retains the synergy and has its damage increased to be comparable to the Volatile Familiar. Ideally, considering the increased Shock Damage taken, these morphs would do similar damage, but Liquid Lightning would be more for organized groups while Lightning Flood would allow Sorcerers to get some extra bar space (as Lightning Flood requires only one slot while Summon Volatile Familiar takes two) without sacrificing too much damage. Engulfing Flames provides a 6% increase to Fire Damage taken while Encratis' Behemoth provides 5%; for Shock Damage (and Frost Damage), the increase could be larger (say, 8-10%) as people generally have less Shock and Frost damage in their kits than they do Fire Damage (and it's completely untenable to expect supports to dedicate 3 monster sets to Encratis, Encratis-but-shock, and Encratis-but-frost).
• Summon Twilight Tormentor: Considering that the base ability, Summon Winged Twilight, received an activated heal, it's odd that this morph completely loses it (and, notably, loses the ability to heal itself). The reverse-execute ability from this skill is only used as a prebuff, so I'd suggest having the Twilight passively do more damage to high-health enemies while its active ability heals the summoner (and the summoner only, unlike the Matriarch morph) and itself.
• Encase, Rune Prison, and Daedric Mines: The Dark Magic skill line bizarrely has three crowd control skills that don't differ very much in execution, particularly given changes to Rune Prison and Daedric Mines in the past. There's a lot of potential for streamlining here and having these skills be altered into tank and healer skills to round out Sorcerer's utility. The only thing I'll say for these skills is that if they're changed, please remember to fix the icons--you never altered the icon for Agony when it became Malevolent Offering, and it still shows vines wrapped around a pair of boots.

chessalavakia_ESO

Darkstorne wrote: »

chessalavakia_ESO wrote: »

Darkstorne wrote: »

chessalavakia_ESO wrote: »

Regarding the light attacks change:

If all you do is light attack, the change will help you by a noticeable amount but, otherwise I doubt it is going to really matter much in most content.

That's... exactly what their goal was though?

There are a lot of new and casual players who play ESO like Skyrim/Oblivion/Morrowind, where light attacks are the majority of their attacks with a few skills sprinkled in for impact. So if they've managed to increase the damage of these players without inflating the damage of skilled players, then that's great news.

Generally, my experience with newer players is that most lean towards ability usage and then shift towards the light/heavy attacks when they run dry.

I've heard about the new players primarily using light attacks on forums a ton but, I haven't actually seen many people that do so in-game that are actually new.

Some like you do deliberately run light attack builds but, I wouldn't really say it's at all common.

Well, it's all anecdotal, but I've seen it first-hand when I tried getting my brother to play back when Elsweyr was the latest chapter. He's a huge TES fan, but hated the combat in ESO and dropped it almost instantly because he primarily light/heavy attacked and did barely any damage. All-white gear with no CP and light attacking must feel bad...

I also see it a lot in dungeons though. I'm a healer, so get to stand back a bit and control the battlefield with buffs/debuffs etc, and sometimes I notice my DPS accounts for like 20%+ of the group total. That's when you notice the bow and dual-wield light attackers

Presumably, ZOS has the data to see that this happens quite a lot. I'm sure there are also new players who use abilities a lot without light attack weaving too, but that's nowhere near as much of a damage-loss as light attack spamming is. So it definitely makes sense to lift the floor here and make the game more welcoming to those players while they learn how to play.

Light Attacking with no gear works at first but, it runs into issues as you level up higher. Additionally, the animations for it don't feel that great depending on your camera choice.

If I recall correctly, last years PTS for light attacks removed the stat scaling at one point which significantly upped the damage of players that didn't have good stats (I had a tanky build where I just punched things to death that did 4k per hit on light attacks that PTS. On this one, my tanky builds hit for around just over 2k) .

My impression is that people see it in dungeons more because the stamina requirements for group content are higher than in Overland Content and people aren't prepared for it. In Overland, you slow down a bit when you are low on stamina and in group content everyone is sprinting most of the time. The engagements in Overland are also shorter which tends to burn less stamina than dungeon engagements. As a result, players can run out of stamina in a fight and then be out of stamina at the next fight as well because they've been sprinting to keep up.

acastanza_ESO

Buffing DK's Standard synergy, when the Berserk from Sorcerer's Atro synergy has been completely sidelined by the ubiquity Major Berserk, first on Sea Serpent's Coil and now ALSO on chains and Wrecking Blow is yet another slap in the face for Sorcerers.
You heavily nerfed Atro a couple patches ago because of Oakensoul cheese that isn't even possible any more, now you continue to give away the one good thing we could provide to group play (group access to Major Berserk).

What the heck ZOS.
Why do you actually hate Sorcerer this much? I want a direct answer from the combat team.

TechMaybeHic

So I have to ask, as these target markers are made more scaleable and easier to see; whats the point in restricting group size in Cyrodiil to 12 and having sets that weaken the more people you have in a group? Why do we even need a group? I realize there are some buffs that only hit party members, but it feels far outweighed by being able to stack more numbers. Already see "ball groups" running full 24 if not more; so this will make that easier.

Am I alone in thinking the bad with these markers far outweigh the good?

Tannus15

Really happy with the buff to the lightning flood synergy, that skill has felt very neglected and sub optimal for a long time.

Unfortunately it's really hard to test synergies in a closed environment like PTS, but at least from a pure numbers point of view lightning flood should be competitive with other ground AOE's now. Unfortunately shock damage is still really bad compared to flame, but what can you do.

On paper lightning flood + something else should be a viable alternative to scamp. hopefully with the synergy this will be at least an option.

proteinexe

Well to put it bluntly (for PvP);

Templars are now fairly useless. Backlash change was needed but the average damage done in PvP has gone from a strong 12k - 15k to 2k - 4k (if you’re lucky), making it the same damage as a spammable. The potential killing power isnt there anymore and there are better healers out there with more utility to offer.

Necromancers now dont have the potential synergy power they once had, reducing them back to a side character class where it’s ‘cute’ to role play in PvP but realistically they dont stand a chance against most stronger classes.

Nightblades are in a good position but because they’re a head above other classes, they’re overtuned. Buff the other classes, dont nerf nightblades.

Wardens are also in a decent spot, you now have frost wardens and you have interesting gameplay but when you inevitably nerf polar wind/arctic blast, dont destroy it. Tiny nerfs please.

Dragonknights are potentially too strong. They spit out damage without intention and they’re incredibly good at survival. Their class utility is very high and they don’t necessarily have a counter.

Sorcerers are my biggest concern. Changes to shields was nice, now give them a burst heal that’s effective like you did with Healthy Offering for Nightblades. Dont make it mandatory for Sorcerers to have to wear Mara’s to survive, that shouldnt be how a class has to function to stand a chance.

Billium813

proteinexe wrote: »

Well to put it bluntly (for PvP);

Templars are now fairly useless. Backlash change was needed but the average damage done in PvP has gone from a strong 12k - 15k to 2k - 4k (if you’re lucky), making it the same damage as a spammable.

I changed to Balorgh and it's a bit better in burst if I can get all my ducks perfectly aligned (PotL, Followup passive, Crescent Sweep, Jesus Beam, Jabs). But if they go invisible, or streak away, or just do anything except stand there and take it... it won't kill. AND even then, if they have Mara's on, it wont kill at all.

Templar does feel like an absolute wet blanket in damage. I get that Jabs was scaled back in damage because it's an AOE and that mere fact seems to mean that Jabs has to underperform on single target... but it and PotL just seem to do nothing in PvP anymore. I feel useless most of the time.

proteinexe wrote: »

Well to put it bluntly (for PvP);
there are better healers out there with more utility to offer.

That's sad considering that should be Templar's entire wheelhouse.

Thraben

3.1 Feedback

Why are you wasting Dev time on synergies when we already told you that they won't be used for damage any longer?

Revert the harmony change and disable crits on synergies instead, so that it's not Eye-of-the-Storm, Dawnbreaker, Deep Fissure, and Proxy all over again.

A synergy meta is still better than a Warden meta (again...), which is what you will get in PvP if you continue like this.

Evrieleth

- Aedric Spear

• Radial Sweep: Increase cost and damage to bring it up to Dragon leap
  - Everlasting Sweep: Increased duration and 2% damage reduction per enemy hit
  - Crescent Sweep: Increased damage and knocks down enemies
• Puncturing Strikes: increase each tick damage by 33% to reintegrate the lost tick into the GCD and grants Major Savagery and Prophecy
  - Biting Jabs: Remove Major Brutality and Sorcery and give it Minor Berserk while slotted

- Dawn's Wrath

• Sun Fire: Grants Major Brutality and Sorcery for 20 seconds
• Backlash: Remove initial hit, inflicts Major Breach on the enemy. Give it a stable tooltip like sorc's curse that deals 50% more damage to enemies below 50%
  - Purifying Light: Heals you for 25% of the damage done. Since this skills is being treated like a ranged skill dealing 90% of the melee damage it makes no sense to have the healing component to stick on the target and benefit from it in melee range
  - Power of the Light: Also Inflicts Minor Breach on the enemy

- Restoring Light

• Mending: increase any healing instead of only restoring light abilities

These changes are quite balanced and reasonable, giving templars a bit of their power back without overloading it like other classes.

huskandhunger

Templar Ideas as Food for Thought

Everlasting Sweep

• This morph now gains 15% damage reduction and heals you for 50% of the damage done. No longer increases in time based on number of targets hit.

Backlash

• This ability and its morphs now deal instant damage of X. This damage increases if the target is below 50% health.

Radiant Destruction

• This ability and its morphs now scale to only 250% instead of 500%. This is due to some of the power being distributed to Backlash.

Puncturing Strikes

• This ability and its morphs now deal an additional .3% of the target's maximum health.

Rune Focus

• This ability and its morphs now heal you for the regular amount even if you leave the rune and walk around for the duration of the ability.

TechMaybeHic

I'd be concerned about suggestions of making POTL some sort of delayed execute if I wasn't fairly certain that any suggestion are usually not used by devs; but I'd rather not have Radiant Destruction toned down and shift some to Backlash to be pretty much in the same spot but only now 2 abilities to execute rather than 1. Where does that get us?

Syiccal

proteinexe wrote: »

Well to put it bluntly (for PvP);

Templars are now fairly useless. Backlash change was needed but the average damage done in PvP has gone from a strong 12k - 15k to 2k - 4k (if you’re lucky), making it the same damage as a spammable. The potential killing power isnt there anymore and there are better healers out there with more utility to offer.

Necromancers now dont have the potential synergy power they once had, reducing them back to a side character class where it’s ‘cute’ to role play in PvP but realistically they dont stand a chance against most stronger classes.

Nightblades are in a good position but because they’re a head above other classes, they’re overtuned. Buff the other classes, dont nerf nightblades.

Wardens are also in a decent spot, you now have frost wardens and you have interesting gameplay but when you inevitably nerf polar wind/arctic blast, dont destroy it. Tiny nerfs please.

Dragonknights are potentially too strong. They spit out damage without intention and they’re incredibly good at survival. Their class utility is very high and they don’t necessarily have a counter.

Sorcerers are my biggest concern. Changes to shields was nice, now give them a burst heal that’s effective like you did with Healthy Offering for Nightblades. Dont make it mandatory for Sorcerers to have to wear Mara’s to survive, that shouldnt be how a class has to function to stand a chance.

I've never understood this argument for sorcs to have a burst heal, thier bust heal is effectively shields which protect HoTs. A shield worth 5-7k is about the same as typical non crit burst heal of templar for example. What sorcs need isn't burst heals it's for shields to crit like burst heals