PTS Update 37 - Feedback Thread for Combat & Classes

Thecompton73

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Yamenstein wrote: »

Can a dev please explain the harmony/boneyard nerfs in relation to necro pvp? Is there plans to buff necros or fix up several skills in their skill lines?

As noted in another post, Harmony was being used in ways outside the intended goals of rewarding group play. Additionally, dev has seen Necromancers used as a "bomb" class and this is outside of the intended scope of play. It contributes to creating an unhealthy play environment.

However, we would like to hear from you regarding what you think the class needs. What do you think the class needs and how are you coming to that determination? Let us know - this will help give the dev team a better constructive perspective from all of you.

I appreciate the engagement but C'mon man, you're telling us you're taking away bomber from possible Necro builds but when we ask how we're supposed to play them you then turn the question back around on us. Maybe if the Devs can't answer that question themselves, as in like having an actual plan for the class, they should hold off on ruining the one thing they do well in PvP?

Edit: I don't even have a Necro leveled on PC but blaming Harmony or the Necro kit itself sets me off when it's Dark Conversion that is problamatic. You could leave the first two untouched and get rid of the set and Necro's would still have a combo that could finish an opponent while taking away the ability to destroy large groups of people with such little effort (the set does that for more than just solo Necro players by the way)

Hrafngrimr3

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Cloudrest wrote: »

Backlash and morphs are seriously underperforming in PvP right now. Templar's burst ability should be hitting for more than 2-5k damage against players. Please look at the several threads talking about how weak Templar is currently and address the issue properly for week three of PTS, or look at the several comments on this thread. Nerf beam too, please.

Nightblade is still overperforming due to the unique 10% damage buff attached to concealed weapon.

Sorc changes don't address the issues with the class in PvP.

Hi all, we had a chat with the dev team about this and wanted to follow up. We've seen your feedback regarding Templar and Sorcerer feeling like they are underperforming compared to the other classes. We would like to get some clarity from you all defining what specifically you mean by "underperforming." Specific details and examples would be helpful. This will give the dev team better context around how the community sees these as underperforming, as that term is broad and can be interpreted differently based on each player's playstyle, build, equipment, played content, etc.

We've given thread after thread after thread of feedback on how exactly Sorcerer is underperforming. They need us to reiterate this again?!

The defensive toolkit of Shields scaling off max stats when the game does not provide comparable damage for stacking into max stats puts the class at an objective disadvantage to classes that can stack into Weapon and Spell Damage to buff both their offense and defense (considering healing does scale off offensive stats). The short duration of shields, coupled with their inability to crit, and how they render block mitigation completely useless, while also not protecting against incoming abilities execute scaling makes them worse in every possible way than class heals. While Sorcerer's in class heals are either a flying plaguebreak bomb that needs to be constantly resummoned because it ran off and died, or a mediocre channeled skill. Or - a shield from the resto staff skill line that is just as likely to apply to the person next to you as it is to you.
So, by stacking into max magicka (for example), your (mediocre, for the above reasons) shields at least get a decent tooltip, at the cost of significant damage loss due to the extremely lackluster damage scaling for max-stat stacking. But stacking into max damage like everyone else gets to do, your shields are actual garbage and you don't have any in-class heals to speak of (except the problematic bird), but at least you can do good damage. That is not a tradeoff any other class is saddled with, and there isn't enough benefit to it for it to be fair. This is exacerbated by the push towards using proc sets to carry damage. Proc sets which scale off damage stats, and provide lines of damage stats. There are no reasonably comparable damaging proc sets that work with the Max-stat playstyle that continues to be forced on Sorcerer and only Sorcerer.

Secondly - for the 1000th time - the pets are a massive liability in PVP and with the major nerfs to Sorcerer's class skills a couple patches back and the bandaid fix of putting the damage back using only Daedric Prey renders the class's damage toolkit subpar. Pets are not viable in PVP - with the resummon time, their low health, needing to be double barred, and the poor AI. If you're going to continue to force pets on Sorcerers, their disadvantages - particularly the cast times and needing to be double barred need to be addressed. With the lack of access to buffs and debuffs in the Sorcerer toolkit, Sorcerers can't afford to give up the double bar spaces for the pets anyway, even if they were good (they aren't, for the above reasons). Not to mention that basically every half decent offensive skill we have except curse is and extremely slow projectile or extremely telegraphed and can be trivially blocked, dodged, or kited, and don't get me started on the RNG of Frags compared to other big-burst skills for other classes where bursts can be built up and proc'ed reliably. The closest we get is Bound Armaments which can be proced reliably but is, again, a (series of) slow moving projectile that is easily blockable. Oh, and since Frags is a channel, we can't even use it as a primary spammable because it'll get you interrupted and stunlocked, so another bar space has to get used for a real spammable.

Thirdly - as alluded to above and as we've proven in other threads - Sorcerer has the worst access to offensive buffs and debuffs of any class in the game. The typical reasoning given for this is that sorcerer's skill tooltips are high, but with other classes like Nightblade and Warden (and now DK with Breserk on Chains) getting massive damage buffs this is simply no longer the case. The ability to buff and debuff is critical and Sorcerer has access to NONE of it.

Finally, the devs continue to give away our classs toolkit. Streak is a great skill, sure, but the upcoming mistform eats Ball of Lightning's lunch with Major Expedition AND Major Evasion AND 300 W/S damage from Strike from the Shadows. And the Major Berserk (one of the few buffs we get- and not even with a way to reliably apply it to ourselves) from the Sorcerer's Atro ultimate has been rendered completely obsolete by the ubiquity of the Sea Serpant's Coil mythic, and now putting the buff on two skills that people can run to reliably get access to themselves.

I can go on, and on, and on here but there are dozens of threads with detailed criticisms that have been ignored for patch after patch after patch now.

That said, thanks for taking the time to let us know that they're at least aware that we've been giving feedback here. The communication is greatly appreciated.

Sorc main in PvP - agree with everything stated here. This is exactly the feedback we’ve been providing and the issues we’ve been addressing for years.

axi

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

heaven13 wrote: »

I'm sure someone has already pointed it out but DKs and templars had similar reasoning for some changes in some vastly different approaches that feel incredibly unbalanced.

• Dragonknight: Chains of Devastation: This morph now grants Major Berserk for 10 seconds after casting, rather than Empower, as Molten Armaments already grants it in a much more effect way.
• Templar: Everlasting Sweep: Increased the duration of the pulsing Damage over Time to 10 seconds at base, up from 6 seconds.This morph no longer grants Empower, as Solar Flare and its morphs already grant this buff.

So DKs get an added named buff (and a major one) and templars get...4 more seconds of pulsing damage? Seems balanced.

In chatting with the dev team, we wanted to highlight the Chain of Devastation morph was one of the least used abilities in the DK's arsenal. The change was less about buffing the class, and more about creating better incentive to use this underutilized ability more.

That being said, the dev team is looking at adjusting the duration of Berserk to be more challenging to keep up without repeated use of the skill.

Make it just reliable gap closer then. As it works right now it's the most cluncky, slow and unreliable out of all gap cloers in the game which is why no DK is using it.

Adding major berserk won't suddenly make it reliable as gap closing tool. It will just make it as source of major berserk in PvE which will buff already top DPS of a DK and in PvP people will rather stick to use sea serpent coil and slot new mist form for mobility/gap closing.

Brederode

@ZOS_Kevin Hello, since you seem active here about collecting feedback, is there any chance you could ask the dev team about Wardens "Frozen Gate" ability not receiving the "soft taunt" as well? I asked about it earlier in this thread (somewhere around page 3) so I hope I am not being spammy about it. Some relevant information:

Last but not least is a new iteration of the “soft taunt” system that pull abilities such as Fiery Grip or Silver Leash had. Instead of soft taunting enemies for 5 seconds like they did in the past, they will now attempt to normally taunt any enemy that is not already taunted. It is our hope that this interaction helps keep these abilities available to use as a tank or any other role for support, where tanks can control enemies more easily at the start of an engagement, while other roles can still use the skill for grouping up foes if their tank has already corralled enemy attention before using the skill. This will also apply to any single target application pull interaction, including item sets. Before you ask though, Area of Effect pulls like Dark Convergence, Rush of Agony, or Void Bash will *not* be affected by these changes.

Abilities and item sets that pull a singular target will now also attempt to taunt the target for 15 seconds if they are not already affected by a player taunt. This applies to the following sources:

• Beckoning Armor
• Fiery Grip and Unrelenting Grip
• Silver Leash
• Swarm Mother

Developer Comment:
Spoiler

In a previous update, we removed a feature referred to as “soft taunt” that was seen on a few of these sources, which at the time was actively causing complications with targets becoming taunt immune or tauntable. We’ve found a much better long-term solution after investigating this for a while, with a lot less weird hitches or interactions. Now when you use an ability against a target, it will check if the target is already taunted; if they are not, it will taunt them. If they are already taunted, it will continue to pull the target and all of the other listed effects, but the taunt from the pull will not apply. This should help give more power of control to those who need to taunt targets, while simultaneously allowing non-tanks to still utilize these abilities without getting clobbered in situations such as the Twins in Maw of Lorkhaj.

So Wardens "Frozen Gate" is a pull ability as well that also only pulls one singular target with every use, after which the ability immediately disappears from the ground. It isn't an Area of Effect pull like the ones listed that are able to pull multiple enemies at once. Despite that, Wardens "Frozen Gate" and it morphs don't get the "soft taunt" according to the PTS Patch Notes. I would like to know if this was intentional or an oversight by the developers. And if it was intentional, I would like to know the reasoning on why.

Mr_Stach

Brederode wrote: »

@ZOS_Kevin Hello, since you seem active here about collecting feedback, is there any chance you could ask the dev team about Wardens "Frozen Gate" ability not receiving the "soft taunt" as well? I asked about it earlier in this thread (somewhere around page 3) so I hope I am not being spammy about it. Some relevant information:

Last but not least is a new iteration of the “soft taunt” system that pull abilities such as Fiery Grip or Silver Leash had. Instead of soft taunting enemies for 5 seconds like they did in the past, they will now attempt to normally taunt any enemy that is not already taunted. It is our hope that this interaction helps keep these abilities available to use as a tank or any other role for support, where tanks can control enemies more easily at the start of an engagement, while other roles can still use the skill for grouping up foes if their tank has already corralled enemy attention before using the skill. This will also apply to any single target application pull interaction, including item sets. Before you ask though, Area of Effect pulls like Dark Convergence, Rush of Agony, or Void Bash will *not* be affected by these changes.

Abilities and item sets that pull a singular target will now also attempt to taunt the target for 15 seconds if they are not already affected by a player taunt. This applies to the following sources:

• Beckoning Armor
• Fiery Grip and Unrelenting Grip
• Silver Leash
• Swarm Mother

Developer Comment:
Spoiler

In a previous update, we removed a feature referred to as “soft taunt” that was seen on a few of these sources, which at the time was actively causing complications with targets becoming taunt immune or tauntable. We’ve found a much better long-term solution after investigating this for a while, with a lot less weird hitches or interactions. Now when you use an ability against a target, it will check if the target is already taunted; if they are not, it will taunt them. If they are already taunted, it will continue to pull the target and all of the other listed effects, but the taunt from the pull will not apply. This should help give more power of control to those who need to taunt targets, while simultaneously allowing non-tanks to still utilize these abilities without getting clobbered in situations such as the Twins in Maw of Lorkhaj.

So Wardens "Frozen Gate" is a pull ability as well that also only pulls one singular target with every use, after which the ability immediately disappears from the ground. It isn't an Area of Effect pull like the ones listed that are able to pull multiple enemies at once. Despite that, Wardens "Frozen Gate" and it morphs don't get the "soft taunt" according to the PTS Patch Notes. I would like to know if this was intentional or an oversight by the developers. And if it was intentional, I would like to know the reasoning on why.

You know I haven't thought about that because I make every effort to get Zos to Rework Frozen Gate but you're completely right, it should receive that same treatment.

Tannus15

PTS parses are coming out now and I think we can pretty much call this update the "major berserk meta"

Rkindaleft

AndreNoir wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

these should be BIS on builds that focus on specific elemental damage types

no they shouldn't because It will be sets for sorcs, dk and warden

Having Mag DK in Silks of the Sun, StamSorc in Automaton, Magsorc in Netch’s Touch would be an infinitely more interesting meta then running Zaan/Rele/PoN on every single class regardless of spec.

Pelanora

Dr_Con

The inclusion of Major Berserk to class abilities that were nerfed and weapon abilities is unnecessary.

First off, Major Berserk is incredibly hard to source, and other items and abilities that provide major berserk as a passive have much more difficult proc conditions.

Minor berserk would have been a better way to introduce Berserk to these skill lines as it is already available in many forms, players would pick up these morphs and use them more widely. My major concern is how it was seemingly decided that because these morphs are underutilized, that they suddenly deserve Major Berserk. This opens a can of worms in regard to other classes with underutilized abilities- should shattering prison get major berserk? should consuming darkness get major berserk? should the javelin that no one uses get major berserk?

Sequelae to these changes will come nerfs as it will cause an unhealthy meta shift. Please consider rethinking the inclusion of specifically Major Berserk into the DK and 2h weapon skill lines.

Cloudrest

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Cloudrest wrote: »

Backlash and morphs are seriously underperforming in PvP right now. Templar's burst ability should be hitting for more than 2-5k damage against players. Please look at the several threads talking about how weak Templar is currently and address the issue properly for week three of PTS, or look at the several comments on this thread. Nerf beam too, please.

Nightblade is still overperforming due to the unique 10% damage buff attached to concealed weapon.

Sorc changes don't address the issues with the class in PvP.

Hi all, we had a chat with the dev team about this and wanted to follow up. We've seen your feedback regarding Templar and Sorcerer feeling like they are underperforming compared to the other classes. We would like to get some clarity from you all defining what specifically you mean by "underperforming." Specific details and examples would be helpful. This will give the dev team better context around how the community sees these as underperforming, as that term is broad and can be interpreted differently based on each player's playstyle, build, equipment, played content, etc.

Hey, @ZOS_Kevin . It's really awesome to see that you guys are actually replying and having a conversation with players on the PTS feedback threads. It goes a long way to building trust with us, and I really appreciate you replying to my post. Here's a list of Templar's pain-points in PvP for the dev team. Again, please do let me know if you guys need combat metrics screenshots or gameplay clips of Backlash especially, as I'd like to demonstrate it for them to diagnose effectively and fix for us.

Backlash and Morphs

As someone in Mechanical Acuity, Perfected Olorime's, Balorghs with a Markyn Ring of Majesty pushing 7.2k spell damage and 19k spell penetration, my tooltip for Backlash and its morphs (Purifying Light, Power of the Light) in Cyrodiil WITH battle spirit applied sits at around 6273 in Cyrodiil. According to the tooltip, 200% of that should be 12,546 damage before mitigation (armor, CP) from another player.

Unfortunately, the ability is extremely underperforming in PvP. It's only hitting players for 3-5k damage even when I'm hitting them with 2-3 casts of jabs and a Dawnbreaker beforehand. There's a theory going around that battle spirit is being incorrectly applied to the ability, effectively "double mitigating" the damage it does in Cyrodiil, as the ability works FINE in PvE. With the stated goal to be changing how it functions to get rid of some problems whilst maintaining the same relative power level as before the rework, I'd like to see the ability hitting players again for at least 12-15k when FULLY stacked. But it's just not, and it's difficult to kill other players.

As it stands, it's just not worth slotting, as it's a high-effort low-reward ability. Templar has no effective burst damage built into the class right now in PvP, and it struggles killing players outside of beam-spamming from the back of a zerg which no-one finds fun.

Biting Jabs/Puncturing Sweeps

I'm sure you guys have seen the multitude of threads protesting the animation change. I'm not going to go on about it, but what I am going to raise is that nerf to the snare duration has made it difficult to consistently land them on other players, and the removal of an entire tick of damage and further nerfing the remaining three ticks by what, 22-24% has made the ability feel like hitting other players with a wet pool noodle than a spear of light.

Templar's spammable sorely needs some love. Ideally, reverting the ability would fix it outright, but if not, at LEAST some damage buffs to compensate for the entire lost tick of damage as before. A light attack doesn't make up for it in PvP, or in PvE.

Major Evasion

Along with Major Evasion being so much more prevalent in Cyrodiil now, the damage of Biting Jabs/Puncturing Sweeps is further mitigated by another 20% ontop of them already being lackluster.

Burning Light

This ability was hit extremely hard by the changes (something like an effective 70% nerf), and seriously needs some damage buffs to make up for how long it takes to proc this ability on another player in PvP.

Radiant Oppression

Look, beam is a cool skill. It looks awesome and feels awesome to use, but it's way overtuned right now to the point where the most effective thing to do on Templar is to spam it from the back of a zerg to kill players. The damage needs a nerf.

Healing

As it stands right now, and it's been pointed out by several people in other threads and also in this combat thread itself, Templar just isn't that amazing of a healer anymore. It's been overshadowed by warden and necromancer in that regard, and even nightblade in some instances. Templar's abilities cost an insane amount of magicka right now, and the cost of them could be reduced to make them a bit more viable and worth running in groups.

CameraBeardThePirate

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

There have been 4 or 5 "Necro needs help" feedback posts the past patch cycle alone, each one talking about different areas the class was hurting. Harmony graverobber was Necro's only real use in PvP anymore, and with it gone, Necromancer feels aimless right now.

The developer team often states they want each class to have a certain "feel", flavor, or gameplay fantasy they perform well, so I urge you to consider the question "What does a Necro play like?" with these upcoming changes.

Are they a DoT class? Well, they have 10% DoT damage and 15% DoT reduction, but they aren't really a DoT class - they only have 2 class DoTs, both AOE.

Are they a burst class? Well, blastbones is a strong burst ability, but that's only when it wants to be. Taking out Graverobber doesn't really leave necro with anything that would fit this role.

Well surely they have a unique and exciting, useful class kit right? Almost. They had usefulness in applying Major Vulnerability and Empower, but Major Vuln has many options for application now, and Empower is nearly useless in all scenarios now. Blastbones and the tethers being the exception (with the latter being situational at best) Necros likely won't use many of their other class abilities. Why? Well they need an ability that gives their major damage buff, their major crit buff, and need an on demand stun if they'll be PvPing. They also need to outsource their spammable, as Skulls underperform most of the other alternatives. Are you running proc sets? Then you should probably run even fewer class skills, since Blastbones and the Archer/Arcanist won't proc damage sets, and Ghost won't proc healing sets.

Necro needs some love. They're almost an excellent class but they've been shoehorned into Harmony bombing for so long that the areas they've lacked in have flown under the radar. Now with Harmony bombing gone, and many of their other issues being more significant in today's meta, they need a bit of help. Throw them a lifeline ZOS.

Hi all, we chatted with the dev team to follow up on some of the player commentary around Harmony. First to frame the conversation, we want to reiterate the dev team's thoughts around the change, which was highlighted in the patch notes.

"This trait is currently far too niche for its intended use and is meant to be an enhancer to the Undaunted skill line and group play, but ironically is being utilized more by solo builds in PvP to instantly obliterate large groups. We’re shifting this trait over to be more recovery focused, which has much more use potential between PvE and PvP, rather than trying to continue making a value that doesn’t add more insta-gibbing potential but still has impact enough in PvE.""

To add additional feedback from dev, Harmony was being used in ways outside the intended goals of rewarding group play. Additionally, dev has noted that Necromancers being used as a "bomb" class was outside of the intended scope of play and created a unhealthy play environment.

With that context, we are happy to relay additional questions and/or feedback to dev regarding the this change to Harmony.

Can you please elaborate on what the intended style of play for Necromancer is then? In my comment that you initially replied to, I describe the ways in which Necromancer feels aimless. I'm not against Harmony being removed and Harmony-Cro going away - but if that wasn't the intended playstyle of Necromancer, then what does the Dev Team intend for the class? As of now the class doesn't really do anything else with success.

shinry

@ZOS_Kevin Thank you for genuinely looking for feedback and considering player viewpoints and responses. Seeing as Cloudrest already hit the main issues of Templar PvP issues I will focus more on the PvE. I am shinry. I am, and have been, a Templar (plar) main ever since ESO was in beta. I'm not sweaty but I like to take my plar (and have them be welcomed to) the hardest fights to protect Tamriel. A lot of people are very fond of their plars, whether they are a fan of the well-done holy knight, paladin-esque aesthetic or really grew attached to their character and their playstyle. A lot of people are having trouble finding a satisfying and appreciatable way to play their favorite class in a lot of the game's late-game content. I feel like a lot of people want to be able to conquer these challenges without casting aside their favorite class/character to do so. I'll try to focus on the DPS raiding/trial perspective in particular so I don't write a novella (instead of an essay). I can offer my own experience on why they are underperforming in that context and try to offer a way to review data on this as well. I will try to present a case for them underperforming and outline the reason why. I don't think it is my place to determine the solution but I will offer cursory suggestions nonetheless. I think a lot of the key points to this are found in comparing their performance using esologs(dot)com, reviewing the difficulty of using their channeled centered function when a multitude of environments necessitate block casting, the difficulty of stamina specs utilizing a magicka-only execute, and the issues of their reduced usefulness in raiding comps. I apologize for the length. I will try to bold the main points.

Reviewing Logs

Being able to navigate and use that database of logs is a good way to review actual data on what and where a class can be underperforming.

First off, I personally find the templar fun to parse on. I also personally think the execute beam does give some uniqueness. But enough with the opinions. There are plenty of parses on the Iron Atronach Dummy that can show in a controlled, nonmechanical, and predictable environment a plar can be near most classes in single target DPS. This does not translate well in most trial content. This can be observed in ESOlogs. If you aren't actively raiding enough to have seen the trend yourself, I highly encourage people to review the plethora of logs there for data. You can click on the trial tab in the top left for a drop-down menu and select a boss from there: https://i.imgur.com/izuod7k.gif

Once selected you can see a DPS leaderboard and statistics on what classes are truly excelling in raid content, and what classes are left in the dust. It is pretty consistent in showing that some classes for DPS are performing consistently in the majority of trials; head and shoulders above others. This data is more relevant than a single target dummy parse to analyze what classes are over and underperforming.

Analyzing Data to Determine Underperformance

Collecting and analyzing trial performance can help see where each class stands and in most trial encounters Templars are underperforming.

This could also serve to compare mean values instead of just the maximum of the range, but I'll keep it simple. In many of these instances, you can see Templar being far below other classes. Reviewing the damage parses on all shared logs of Yandir HM from Veteran Kynes Aegis (vKA), you can see that Templar top parse is 75k DPS below and only dealing 64% other top parsing classes like Necromancer (necro) and Dragonknight (DK). You will only find one Templar on the top 100 DPS charts for the first boss in vKA. You will not find a Templar on those charts for the 2nd or 3rd boss: https://imgur.com/a/QZ81NtB

Determining Causality? Why does this occur?

The common trend coupled with poor Templar performance is block cast (main abilities are channels where you can't block) or die situations and those with long-range side adds.

These situations are frequent in trial fights. A Templar's 1.8s channeled executing beam, Radiant Oppression (Beam) is by far their most powerful tool, usually doing approximately a fifth of their single target damage in a fully optimized parse. A Templar can keep up with other classes more reasonably in those situations where there is a single target for their Radiant Oppression beam to have value, with no interrupts around execution, and no block casting mechanic. Unfortunately, this is not the case in most situations. They will lack the cleave of other classes that they get free without sacrificing their burn on the boss (Note: A Templar can perform well again in high-health enemy encounters again if they are permitted to use the Azureblight set instead of a Necro or a DK, but that is a seldom seen luxury in my own experience and ESO log data). It seems that although a Templar can perform comparatively on a dummy; however, a standalone dummy parse is not a good way to test their performance in a trial environment where it matters. This is likely due to two reasons, the inability to block cast their main abilities and their lack of cleave in a single target-focused build that top classes have that perform best in most boss fights.

Most Templar's main abilities are channels. Jabs and Beam. Beam also slows you. You cannot block while channeling. On a dummy parse, a Templar only keeps up with other class parses by channeling freely when they know how long the execute phase will be. Other classes do not have to worry about their main skills channel being interrupted. In many trial encounters, Templars must concern themselves with their channel costing them their lives, having to cancel it, or having their Radiant Oppression interrupted and putting it on a 1.8s cooldown as a result just to keep up with DPS with other classes who can block while using abilities. In many cases, if you don't block, you die in one hit. This is most apparent now since most Templars need to start beaming at above 40% enemy health. This leaves them vulnerable for even longer. Many bosses like Oaxiltso with stomp and meteors can have multiple occasions where you just have to cancel your ability if you hope to live. This is a notable DPS loss. This is a situation in which at least half of HM trial fights have something akin to recurring meteors and to compound the problem it usually is most frequent at the execute portion of a fight where you have a 1.8s channel that is your main damage source. I'll review vSS, vKA, vHoF, and the Craglorn trial boss encounters with such frequent mechanics just to visit how much of a problem this is:

All Sunspire dragon's head swings, Lokkestiiz ice balls and meteors repeating during execute, Yolnahkriin fire geysers, Nahviintaas meteors during execute, Yandir's jump, totems and lightning, Captain Vrol's meteors during the entire latter half of the fight, Lord Falgravn's instability, hemorrhage and his side boss Lieutenant Njordal teleport strike and grip (no wonder plars have a difficult time in vKA), vAA Foundation Stone Atronach Ground Pound and rock throws, the Celestial Mage's meteors during execute, the Warrior's starfall phases during execute, Possessed Manticora's popcorn and stomp, Stonebreaker's groundslam, Hunter-Killer Fabricant Tail Whip, Pinnacle Factotum's shock meteors, the Refrabication Committees flame swing, and Assembly General's stomp. Every. Few. Seconds.

Most difficult trial encounters involve fights that will require more cleave/splash damage since many bosses will have additional adds instead of just fighting the boss.

Some classes, like a Dragonknight's Flames of Oblivion and Burning Talons will offer more far-reaching AOE DPS without sacrificing too heavily on single target DPS of the main boss that plars lack equivalent damage too, such as with Oaxiltso's frogs. In fact, the overwhelming majority of trial encounters are not solely single-target ordeals.

A few remedies to the former issue could be offering a better damage mitigation passive during channeled abilities, canceling the channel less penalizing, or making risking the channel more worth it. For the latter issue, it would bring up the cleave damage done by other abilities more comparable to other classes, such as what jabs or ritual of retribution once had.

Stamina hybridization issues

Being stamina-based is difficult for Stamplars because of the necessity of swapping from a stamina to a magicka-based spammable mid-way through a fight.

Stamina hybridization with Templar is difficult because of how much your magicka-based only execute is the cornerstone of your build. Many templars who want to be stamina-based usually have to swap food buffs from saltrice to jester coins mid fight just to have the magicka necessary to end the second half of the fight with beam as a spammable. This is also bothersome because stamplars used to be able to stack weapon damage better with infused jewelry and now are obligated to go bloodthirsty to supplement their main damage, Radiant Oppression. I'm unsure what the solution to this would be.

Unique Class Utility

Templars don't have and could use a unique passive like other classes to make them desirable in a group and make Templar enjoyers not feel selfish in bringing them.

Templars no longer have appealing unique passives they bring to a trial group. With them also having subpar DPS this makes it difficult to be accepted while playing your favorite class, even if you play it as well as it can be played. With hybridization and Dragonknights giving minor brutality, Templars minor sorcery passive is irrelevant. Dragonknights have the overall best performance in a tank and DPS position in trials currently as well. A Templar can still be desired for purifying synergy but there are other cleanses, synergies for Alkosh uptimes but there are other synergies, rez speed but there is Spirit Mastery CP, shards but there is mystic orb, their execute but other classes also have good executes. Having them offer a better unique group support contribution would definitely make templars feel they have more to offer a group, perhaps a passive to give minor evasion or vitality, or giving them comparable damage to be considered by that merit alone.

In conclusion, I think that trial logs that can be seen on esologs(dot)com can show that Templar dps are underperforming and a lot of players in the community feel like to be accepted in an organized group that looks to complete this difficult content in they can no longer play their favorite class. This is difficult when they want their favorite character to conquer Tamriel's greatest evil, but can't, even when they play it in the most optimal fashion, simply because of its class. It seems like Templar damage is too low to weather frequent mechanics that make them have to mind them being slowed in a channel that they frequently have to cancel or have interrupted and go on CD and still parse well. The fights where these mechanics are more frequent are where Templars perform drastically below their peers, as seen in the logs, as a result. This in addition to their now much poorer cleave damage in their most optimal setups, difficulty in teching a stamina spammable in tandem with magicka beam, and no unique groups passives make them feel like they are underperforming and many Templar and ESO lovers in the community were hoping it would be addressed in this PTS cycle in a meaningful way. Thank you for taking the time to read and consider this.

Billium813

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

heaven13 wrote: »

I'm sure someone has already pointed it out but DKs and templars had similar reasoning for some changes in some vastly different approaches that feel incredibly unbalanced.

• Dragonknight: Chains of Devastation: This morph now grants Major Berserk for 10 seconds after casting, rather than Empower, as Molten Armaments already grants it in a much more effect way.
• Templar: Everlasting Sweep: Increased the duration of the pulsing Damage over Time to 10 seconds at base, up from 6 seconds.This morph no longer grants Empower, as Solar Flare and its morphs already grant this buff.

So DKs get an added named buff (and a major one) and templars get...4 more seconds of pulsing damage? Seems balanced.

In chatting with the dev team, we wanted to highlight the Chain of Devastation morph was one of the least used abilities in the DK's arsenal. The change was less about buffing the class, and more about creating better incentive to use this underutilized ability more.

That being said, the dev team is looking at adjusting the duration of Berserk to be more challenging to keep up without repeated use of the skill.

I really appreciate this effort by the development team! I love the idea of the development team reviewing the least used morphs for each class and looking at why they aren't being used and how they can be buffed! That could go a long way to make players really have to make a choice between morphs and reduce the number of "obvious" choices.

I assume the development team collects this data on the least used morphs and it would be awesome if that information was shared!

trippcap

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Cloudrest wrote: »

Backlash and morphs are seriously underperforming in PvP right now. Templar's burst ability should be hitting for more than 2-5k damage against players. Please look at the several threads talking about how weak Templar is currently and address the issue properly for week three of PTS, or look at the several comments on this thread. Nerf beam too, please.

Nightblade is still overperforming due to the unique 10% damage buff attached to concealed weapon.

Sorc changes don't address the issues with the class in PvP.

Hi all, we had a chat with the dev team about this and wanted to follow up. We've seen your feedback regarding Templar and Sorcerer feeling like they are underperforming compared to the other classes. We would like to get some clarity from you all defining what specifically you mean by "underperforming." Specific details and examples would be helpful. This will give the dev team better context around how the community sees these as underperforming, as that term is broad and can be interpreted differently based on each player's playstyle, build, equipment, played content, etc.

I want to provide some insight here from an endgame PvE player who wants this game to succeed the most. Templar is lacking pretty heavily in PvE at the moment. The only strong ability they possess anymore is beam, and every other asset the possess has been heavily nerfed and have since lost its identity.

The first big issue is jabs. I think the community has voiced its concerns over the changed jabs enough, so I will be concise with my explanation here. The old animation for jabs was not only better performing, but more fun to use. It was nice that the Templar had an ability that functioned a bit differently from others. Such unique abilities like those tend to lean heavily towards more expanded versions of class identity. It was also a very nice accessibility option for people who did not want to do complicated rotations, but instead a few DoTs here and there and some jabs. But currently, not only is the animation not fun to use, and I highly highly recommend reverting it, but it does basically half of the damage it used to, turning it from an awesome jab of light that was unique to templars, to the equivalent of hitting others with a wet noodle with little damage. I understand that this is also a big gripe in PvP, as templars have fallen out of favor as well.

Other unique tools that the templars have access to have also lost their identity, like ritual of retribution. It was unique for an ability to do above average damage at a high magicka cost. This was removed in update 35 along with the jabs changes. These hurt the identity of templars very much. Once again, I recommend reverting this to pre-u35 or at the very least increasing the damage. It also did not help that solar barrage was changed to give a now widely unused empower buff that is very cool to have for the small percentage of players who utilize heavy attack builds, but useless for the majority who do not, which is another qualm for another post.

The easiest solution is to revert templar to post update 35. The jabs animation feels and is weak and unfun to play, and other abilities have fallen by the wayside with no substantial buffs to other unused templar abilities, as everlasting sweep is not enough of a buff to make the ultimate worth using. At the moment in PvE, it is desired in endgame raids and for mid-tier raids for the team to be comprised of almost solely DKs. With hybridization, templars are no longer needed for unique buffs, as well as sorcerers, and wardens have been incredibly gutted in dps to a point where they are relatively unseen in any raid as a dps because of how low their damage kit has become. Nightblade has seen some sizable nerfs as well and suffers from moderate lack of AoE. Necromancer just had one of its most unique class-specific abilities nerfed by a sizable amount, which along with the nerfs from u35 and 36, the class is now in a mostly unused state, even from the support perspective as major vulnerability can now be easily sourced from sets.

I love the game, and I really want endgame PvE DPS to not be just DKs. TLDR: Please revert the jabs animation and improve the damage, as well as ritual of retribution and power of the light. Source some nice buffs for wardens, sorcs, nightblades, and necros as well, as they are all underperforming heavily in PvE scenarios. And by underperforming I mean, consistently 20k+ dps lower than their DK counterparts. It is also important to note that this is not the scenario to drag DK down to a state of poor performance like other classes, but to instead lift the other classes up to present unique and powerful options no matter what class you play that are competitive and possess plenty of class identity. Hope you guys read this and forward it on, I support ZOS and have much faith in them as they continue to make the game better.

propertyOfUndefined

Hey @ZOS_Kevin ,

First, thank you for bringing the necromancer feedback to the devs. I really do appreciate your being so active and attentive in these forums. I'm sure I'm not alone in that.

The reason why the Harmony Necromancer was so popular is because players consider it the only viable way to play the class as a damage dealer in PVP. As somebody who's played the class almost exclusively since its release, I get it. Without the boneyard synergy, the class just doesn't have enough firepower in its kit to finish off other players. Blastbones can be made to hit hard with sets like Unleased Ritualist, but with the current meta, you need to really pile on the damage to secure a kill as players heal to full in an instant. This is made worse by the fact that the Blastbones skeleton often gets confused, stuck, etc.

Other offensive skills in the class' kit just aren't useful in pvp. Boneyard is basically an inferior version of razor caltrops (w/o the snare). Shocking Siphon isn't usable because pvp fights are extremely mobile, and you're tethered to something stationary (really wish one of the morphs allowed you to tether to non-corpses) The summoned pets deal pathetic damage and can't even be used to body-block like other pets in the game.

I'm not asking the devs to rollback the changes to Harmony. If the trait was never supposed to be used that way and is considered an abuse of game mechanics, then so be it. But in taking that away, please don't leave the class in a state where it goes from having 1 viable damage dealing build to zero. That would be devastating to a lot of PVP'ers who love the class and don't want to "go with the crowd" by playing a DK or Warden.

The devs plan to give DKs (the strongest class in PVP at the moment) Major Berserk, which is probably the strongest buff there is. If any class needs this buff (in pvp), it's necromancers.

Hoping you can pass this message along... Thanks!

Hotdog_23

Console player thoughts on combat balance. Mostly PVE, but a little PVP.

Major Berserk on DK chains is an interesting idea and probably would work in PVE, but I don’t really see it as a thing in PVP. Targeting a fast moving, disappearing target in PVP will not make it worth it most of the time. Travel time makes it weird and funky to use in PVP. Still say Inhale and its morphs are under powered compared to other burst skills. Some much so that it is another skill you rarely see anywhere just like empowering chains that you are trying to fix as underperforming.

Templar healing is not really a thing anymore. You have nerfed it so much in favor of bringing other classes up that it is now in the bottom half compared to other classes. With many healing skills now moving with the player, Templar house healing is average, but in mobile fights the healing is substandard.  Talking about burst skills. Backlash and its morphs are just not worth using anymore in any environment. The damage nerf and ability to only allow one at a time handicapped the skill too much.

NB are crazy strong. The hybridization of skill helped healing so much on a stamblade. Not asking for them to be nerfed, just bring the other classes up to them instead.

Sorcerer damage/healing is too much tied to pets. As much as I hate flappy but maybe if Twilight Matriarch could also auto revive once killed in PVP area’s there would not so many complaints about Sorc healing in those areas. Just shrink the size of the dang thing already. Or better yet get rid of permanent pets and the two bar requirement. The increase of shield size is weird considering how you standardized skills not long ago. It’s changes like this that made us lose faith in your ability to balance skills in the first place and why we ask for a roadmap and clear, concise goals and plans or the future. Not more throw it on the wall and see what sticks approach. The problem is PVP healing, not shield size.

Nercos are in a tough spot. Skulls are still pretty much not used. Harmony change is funny, guess only NB’s are allowed to bomb. The double nerf was not necessary. Tethers are still weird to use. Don’t really see them used a lot.

Wardens are in a good overall spot, I feel. Sure some tweaks are needed here and there but nothing major. Need more ice based skills to complete the frost warden theme.

Stay safe

Sergykid

yall need to chill with those walls of text, it's difficult to track what u wanna say and just encourages entirely skipping after reading first few words.

too much poetry, repetitions, unhelpful descriptions, and stating the obvious. Be more to the point and concise.
Other threads do this in an obnoxious abundance but this thread actually gets looked at as i see it so try to be more helpful

Melzo

Sergykid wrote: »

yall need to chill with those walls of text, it's difficult to track what u wanna say and just encourages entirely skipping after reading first few words.

too much poetry, repetitions, unhelpful descriptions, and stating the obvious. Be more to the point and concise.
Other threads do this in an obnoxious abundance but this thread actually gets looked at as i see it so try to be more helpful

Here I think that if you write more about your class, then the buff will come to his class. It basically worked until now. A lot of the message was about the buff of the varden, but rarely did anyone talk about the buff of the necromancer and templar. As a result, all messages about the warden's buff reached the developers, and the rest of the classes were ignored. Since they considered that they were unworthy, since they write little ... In general, the more people complain, the faster it reaches the developers. For example, they removed the harmony and if no one would say about it, then the developers did not even bother about some kind of game balance.

TechMaybeHic

Sergykid wrote: »

yall need to chill with those walls of text, it's difficult to track what u wanna say and just encourages entirely skipping after reading first few words.

too much poetry, repetitions, unhelpful descriptions, and stating the obvious. Be more to the point and concise.
Other threads do this in an obnoxious abundance but this thread actually gets looked at as i see it so try to be more helpful

I have to agree. I'd scip the "this class was meant to do this however...." and the ideas how to fi it as I think they've said they don't like it. They certainly seem to avoid using suggestions.

godchucknzilla

Hey @ZOS_Kevin ,

If harmony is removed then Graverobber should be buffed at least 40 percent from its value on live, not nerfed 40 percent. Think Major Evasion - this buff makes the Necromancer damage too low because the damage is all AOE. Harmony is only unhealthy when ball groups of 12 use it on single players and we need to start addressing cross healing which is way more unhealthy than Harmony. What is up with Major Defile being so dang weak now? Major defile was the Necromancer main debuff but not it does almost nothing. Why do we have Major defile at 16 percent, Baseline it should be 20 percent and Minor defile should be 10 percent??

Items to combat ball groups and stacks of players were a fad that is unhealthy? We need to have ways to kill stacks of players and this was already solved with dark convergence, rush of agony, plaguebreak and vicous death. Having bombing flavor and class diversity is a good thing not everyone wants to play Nightblade to bomb.

The necromancer doesn't need to be redesigned to be more like the other classes, cause then why not just play the other classes. Lets keep it the master of AOE style alive and strengthen what's already weak about it. Buff Graverobber if removing Harmony. Currently the necromancer is too buff heavy having to run 4 buffs is too many and they are way too short. Summoner Armor and Spirit Guardian need to be like 30 seconds long. Corpses need to last twice as long and when players die they should generate a corpse next to their body so when they respawn the tether doesn't vanish.

The Stamina and Magicka Scythe don't do nearly enough damage to be in line with the other class melee skills such as concealed weapons, and they are reduced 20 percent by major evasion, which is now meta and built into the Nightblade kit. At 3800 weapon damage Ruinous Scythe does 5400 tooltip damage, at 3800 weapon damage Concealed Weapons does 7100, 40 percent more damage, mind boggling, and concealed weapons isn't reduced by Major Evasion at all. Can we get some more damage on this Scythe? I realize the the Skull projectile is suppose to be the comparison to Conceal weapons but this scythe is hitting like a wet noodle compared to say Brawler with the Master Weapons.

proteinexe

I wrote previously about templar's and specifically templar's in PvP as this is what I feel I have the most knowledge and experience on, but I'd like to also talk about Sorcs and there lacklustre abilities in PvP.

I'd say there are 3 main issues with Sorcerer when it comes to PvP; burst, survivability and utility.

Burst

now that hybridisation is a thing, I feel that a lot of classes are slowly merging into one (with slight differences). Stam and Mag DK are close to being one, stamplar and magplar differ only in their execute and spammable really, and nightblade is just nightblade, it only depends if you cloak or are a brawler. Sorc however I feel has kept some semblance of Mag and Stam form. Magsorc uses shields and is ranged and stamsorc uses duel wield/2h and is usually melee range (more on that later though). Yet one thing that they both have in common is their burst potential and how much it sucks. Let's start with:

Curse
• Curse is what I'd say Sorcs delayed burst is, in line with other classes such as backlash and subterranean assault, yet it suffers in two ways; damage and timing. The damage is straight up less than the majority of burst. Most tooltips for burst such as blastbones and subterranean sit at 3600, whereas curse is 2999. Yes, Curse goes off twice, but in PvP that means very little due to healing being so prominent and accessible that they'll heal up the damage done by the time the seconds curse proc rolls around, leading to my seconds point. Timing on curse is ridiculously long. 3 seconds for the first delayed burst is understandable and in line with other similar burst abilities, but 8.5 seconds for the second proc? by the seconds proc the first will have been negated by a simple vigor HoT. It's a terrible ability and pales in comparison to other delayed burst abilities. Ultimately, the timing is far too spread and the damage need's a buff or there should be a secondary affect which isn't just splash damage (which quite honestly is useless too due to the range and the actual damage done).

Crystal weapon
• Why oh why ZoS, the first iteration of this skill was odd, not great but it could then be classed as a Stamina spammable, nice. Then you buffed it to make it two procs, unfortunately this got abused but bowsorcs and other's of the like, but then you go and change it again and make it almost useless. Here you have two morphs, tell me which one you'll take; crystal fragments, a high damage low cost skill which can be used nearly once every 2 seconds and is ranged with very little downsides. OR. Crystal weapon, a medium cost low damage spammable with a weak secondary affect and a weird niece where your opening attack is weak and your second 'free' cast is the same damage as a normal spammable meaning overall your damage will be less. The point i'm making is there's absolutely no reason to use crystal weapon over elemental weapon or a spammable from the weapon skill lines. Please take out the first cast being weaker part and add an additional feature to the weapon, such as; a stun, an incremental damaging affect, a debuff 'people who have recently been damaged by crystal weapon take an extra 7% damage to all Sorcerer abilities', something to incentivise Sorcs using their own class skills.

Survivability

Oh lord where to start. Let's go with Stamsorc as that truly is the one that suffers. Magsorcs traditionally fight at range, they need HoT's to stay alive, but they fight at range with shields meaning if they can successfully create distance (which is hard nowdays as everyone and their grandma can snare you), they can survive. However, stamsorc is more of an in and out class. Hit and run if you will, but you still have to get in and fight toe to toe with someone to kill them being a melee class setup. Stamsorcs cannot fight toe to toe with the majority of classes for the fundamental reason that their defence kit sucks but their healing is abysmal. They have no burst heal, they have no real class HoT, their 'HoT' (if you can call if that), Dark deal can be bashed which any half-decent player opposing you will do, and their passive heals such as crit surge and blood magic require you to be in combat and being on the offence to stand a chance at healing. If you're 1vX, because the majority of your abilities are single target, those passive heals go out the window essentially and because people are just naturally faster these days, streaking away to try a sneaky dark deal rarely works. The only option for a stamsorc to 1vX or stand a chance against better players is to essentially streak away until you manage to get a 1v1, and if that 1v1 happens to be a dot class like a DK, you're up a creek without a paddle because their dots negate your hots and you're constantly standing there attempting to go on the offence but with no healing coming in.
I'll touch briefly on the changes to shields. I like it, it gives stamsorc something to take the pressure off when they go on the offence without having to have their eyes glued to their healthbar, but as you can see in this thread, shields also need some love and care, that could potentially tip the balance but overall healing is still needed. Especially a burst heal (pet's don't count, I wont go into pet's but in PvP they just become free ulti regen or resource squishies).

Utility

This'll be the shorter of the 3 sections for the fundamental reason that I dont have to hand the buff and debuff list that's flying around, but essentially Sorcs have very little to offer in PvP to a group. They dont have the ability to heal teammates, they dont have any/many niece or unique buffs to offer other players, they cant hold the line because they're too squishy so they have to rely on either running away from the group to survive with streak or having a dedicated healer helping them, and the aoe pressure they push out is non-existent in comparison to other classes. I know this isnt a great analogy, but in the same way that nightblade is a high damage single target stamina class (on the whole), I feel sorcerer is meant to be the magicka counterpart with high damage single target magicka focussed skills. And whereas you can fit a nightblade into a group with their tradeoff to group utility being their class kit providing very high damage numbers to individual targets, sorcerer cannot do that, and now that nightblade has a good burst heal they can even sustain themselves where sorcerer cannot.


TL;DR

• Burst: Curse does too little damage and has too long between bursts. Crystal weapon is useless in comparison to other spammables and pales in comparison to the utility Crystal frags offers.
• Survivability: Stamsorcs are melee ranged but dont have the healing or defence to fight toe to toe with any other class. Their passive healing requires them to be on the offence but their class kit doesn't give them the tankiness to do so. They need a burst heal that isnt a pet.
• Utility: Sorcerers dont bring anything of value to a group in PvP, in fact they require healing from other players but don't do anywhere near enough damage to make up for it. They dont give out niece or unique buffs. They also dont line up with other comparable classes.

Summary

I hope this sheds some light on the issues. There may be parts I've missed or areas where I'm wrong, but I desperately want to see Sorcerer coming through again. It's sad seeing a class so neglected.

Edit

spoke with a mate who's been a stamsorc since day one and he had this to say:

3 things that would go a long way:
- secondary effect on curse, maybe something like what you said "7% increased damage taken from sorcerer abilites" but that might be a bit strong
- add a burst heal, my suggestion is to rework the encase ability since it's absolutely useless, major vitality on a skill that roots enemies? with duration increasing on enemies hit? useless.
- secondary effect on the exploitation passive which currently only gives minor prophecy, i suggest just adding a base 10% crit dmg so that it mirrors nightblades' crit passive. sorc is a crit class as well (access to minor prophecy, crit surge etc) but it cant build crit as effectively

Syiccal

And another wall of text lolz

TechMaybeHic

Yeah.

Look @ZOS_Kevin as simple as possible

Under battle spirit, Backlash and it's morphs are not hitting anywhere near the damage of other classes burst abilities "shalk, whip, spectral bow, etc"

The end

huskandhunger

K9002 wrote: »

Templar can't do damage anymore and it doesn't have anything to offer to any groups. It's no longer a good solo class either.

People don't realize the scale of Burning Light nerf. Its damage was reduced to ~66% and due to the new cooldown it procs not every global cooldown but on average every 3 seconds. You can go to esologs and pick any Templar DPS in any trial, read the encounter log. It pops every 2.5~3.5 seconds. Divide 66% by 3 and you get measly 22% of its original damage output when using Jabs/Sweeps. It does proc when not using Jabs, so from a distance and during execute phases. But J-Beam is already strong in execute phase all on its own, we just got an unjust nerf outside of execute range. Damage has to be returned either to Jabs or to Burning Light. Alternatively Burning Light's cooldown should be reduced to 300ms.

Backlash is another skill that is not alright, and not just in PvP like the PvP crowd says. First a comparison with similar skills of other classes. Tooltip numbers scaled to 30k resource + 6k weapon/spell damage.

Backlash: 4 802 single target damage + 5 313~10 626 single target damage after 6 seconds. Maximum damage per cast - 15 428.

• Purifying Light: adds AoE HoT of 2 479 every 2 seconds.
• Power of the Light: stamina conversion and inflicts Minor Breach.
• Passive bonus from Prism: generates 3 ultimate per cast; 6 seconds cooldown.

Grim Focus: after 5 light attacks - 18 466 single target damage + conditional melee range heal for 33% of damage done. Also offers a unique w/s damage buff of 300; tooltip corrected by this amount.

• Relentless Focus: stamina conversion and longer w/s damage buff duration.
• Merciless Resolve: damage increased to 20 313 and healing to 50% of damage done.
• Passive bonus from Pressure Points: increases critical rate by 438 (2%) for being slotted.

Daedric Curse: 12 008 single target damage + 5 523 splash damage after 6 seconds.

• Daedric Prey: large cost reduction + 45% damage increase for all class pets and one of the class ultimates.
• Haunting Curse: Damage increased to 12 403 + 5 705. After additional 8.5 seconds hits a second time for the same amount. Total damage per cast increased to 24 806.
• Passive bonus from Rebate: refunds 300 of its resource cost when it ends.

Scorch: 10 716 AoE damage after 3 seconds + additional 14 884 AoE damage after additional 6 seconds. Maximum damage per cast - 25 600.

• Subterranean Assault: stamina conversion. Reduces the delay of second hit to 3 seconds and its damage to 10 716. Maximum damage per cast - 21 432.
• Deep Fissure: applies Major and Minor Breach to all enemies hit.
• Passive bonus from Bond with Nature: heals the caster for 1 260 health when it ends.
• Passive bonus from Savage Beast: generates 4 ultimate per cast; 8 seconds cooldown.
• Passive bonus from Advanced Species: increases critical damage by 4% for being slotted.

Blastbones: 14 884 AoE damage after 2.5 seconds. Creates a corpse when it ends.

• Blighted Blastbones: stamina conversion and applies Major Defile to all enemies hit.
• Stalking Blastbones: deals up to 50% more damage scaling with the time spent chasing distant targets. Maximum damage per cast - 22 326.
• Passive bonus from Reusable Parts: cost reduced by 50% after any summoned minion including Blastbones dies.
• Passive bonus from Death Knell: increases critical chance against enemies under 25% health by 8% for being slotted.
• Passive bonus from Dismember: increases armor penetration by 1500 while active.

All other classes hit in the range of 20k+, with no conditional gimmicks such as building up a lot of damage on the target. Nightblade's light attack condition is trivial to achieve in comparison. 3 other classes deal this higher damage as AoE damage with no downsides. Other classes also see more synergistic effects with their passives.

1. Backlash and both morphs need to be able to deal at least as much damage per cast. Either:
   • its base damage needs to increase by around 40-45%.
   • its accumulated damage scaling needs to be increased to 300%.
2. Power of the Light has a completely obsolete added bonus. Minor Breach is readily provided by tanks in any group content. It's applied by all sources of physical damage; Jabs are good at it. It's applied by a similar Warden skill. Soon it will be sourced from frost staves as well. This debuff needs to be replaced by something more useful. Possible substitutes:
   • Major Berserk for the caster.
   • Unique debuff on target enemy. Something akin to armor debuff from Crystal Weapon or % fire damage taken from Engulfing Flames (just make it something else than fire, like physical).
   • Move Major Brutality/Sorcery from Biting Jabs to PotL and make Jabs ignore 10% of enemies' armor, similar to destruction staff skills.

Templars still need help in the buff and team support department, as explained in this thread. Radiant Aura is the perfect candidate. As it stands, it offers too little to justify sacrificing a skill slot. Skill slots are a more precious and scarce resource than magicka, stamina or even ultimate. Make this ability cost magicka and do what it currently does + something extra. We don't need more healing, we need a unique buff that no other class has to offer. How about returning the old effect of Maelstrom staves? A flat increase to light attack damage that goes over the new base damage cap.

1000 times this post. This is why Templar needs help. @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_Kevin

Sergykid

u can't just compare different abilities when arguing about why one is bad or good. Abilities have different effects, it also heals, or is undodgeable, or has a debuff attached, etc.
u compare x and y to how much damage they do but those aren't even supposed to do same damage even if you don't actually use the attached effects.
it means that the respective ability is not the best pick for the scenario u want to use it for

Syiccal

@ZOS_Kevin any updates?

proteinexe

Sergykid wrote: »

u can't just compare different abilities when arguing about why one is bad or good. Abilities have different effects, it also heals, or is undodgeable, or has a debuff attached, etc.
u compare x and y to how much damage they do but those aren't even supposed to do same damage even if you don't actually use the attached effects.
it means that the respective ability is not the best pick for the scenario u want to use it for

Yes, yes you can, and that's exactly what we should be looking at in this scenario. ZoS on the whole like to balance classes, and each class has a burst ability which is usually delayed or requires some sort of action to build it up. Each class clearly has a burst ability. I cant be bothered to list them again but you know them. They all do in respect similar amounts of damage, and all of them have a secondary effect which either makes them stronger or gives some form of debuff/utility. I assume you're talking about backlash here, well backlash has two morphs, one of which gives healing returned based of damage and the other gives minor breach. The minor breach morph is very lacklustre. Compare that effect to other classes burst and it's pretty bad, especially since you can get minor breach from a good amount of other places. The main difference though is the damage. It's not even within 20% of the second lowest damaging burst ability across the classes.

You can compare and to suggest you shouldn't isnt a great take, otherwise you get unbalanced classes like we have currently where competitively you can only really play 2 - 3 classes if you want a chance of doing well (in PvP at least).

xthrshx

shinry wrote: »

The common trend coupled with poor Templar performance is block cast (main abilities are channels where you can't block) or die situations and those with long-range side adds.

These situations are frequent in trial fights. [/b]

This is one of the best posts I’ve ever seen on here. Thank you for putting so much time into this.

I just want to echo this point because I don’t see it brought up as frequently as other issues with the class. But the block-cast-or-die fear is real on plar. I was having a heart attack the entire last boss of my Godslayer run on magplar because I didn’t want to be the guy who gets caught in a jab and can’t block a head swipe in time, and I was terrified through exe, casting Jesus beam knowing I could get myself one-shot with the smallest mistake. It’s a true weakness built into the Templar class. Like you said, it won’t show up in a spreadsheet or dummy parse, but it has a tangible effect on class performance in content.

Thanks again for your amazing post on the state of Templar. I’m holding out some small amount of hope that the class will be decent again.

RevJJ

Genuine question. If NBs are so OP in pvp (according to many comments in this thread), why do they appear to be one of the least played classes? On GH PCNA the vast majority is a DK to the point where “kill 20 dragon knights” is almost the same objective as “kill 40 players”. In my experience NBs are probably in the bottom 10% together with necros. But perhaps that is only my experience.

acastanza_ESO

If you're truly dead set on giving DKs a massive damage boost with Major Berserk (which again, you absolutely should not be doing) then at minimum, Chains needs the same escalating cost treatment as Streak and the new Mist Form.
Frankly, all the gap closers need this, but at minimum something giving a massive damage buff should.