PTS Update 37 - Feedback Thread for Combat & Classes

Evrieleth

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

I'd be concerned about suggestions of making POTL some sort of delayed execute if I wasn't fairly certain that any suggestion are usually not used by devs; but I'd rather not have Radiant Destruction toned down and shift some to Backlash to be pretty much in the same spot but only now 2 abilities to execute rather than 1. Where does that get us?

A reasonable increase in damage like 30-50% on low healt targets wouldn't make of POTL a real execute. With a fixed tooltip like sorc's curse, that would be still less damage than deep fissure's second hit and still retaining the concept of benefitting from the damage you do while POTL is up.

Regarding Radiant Destruction, the only change i'd do would be it's range. 28 meters range + 5 meters from reach passive on an undodgeable execute is way too much, should be at maximum 22 to keep it in line with javelin and it will help with the radiant spamming bots from across the map

TechMaybeHic

Evrieleth wrote: »

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

I'd be concerned about suggestions of making POTL some sort of delayed execute if I wasn't fairly certain that any suggestion are usually not used by devs; but I'd rather not have Radiant Destruction toned down and shift some to Backlash to be pretty much in the same spot but only now 2 abilities to execute rather than 1. Where does that get us?

A reasonable increase in damage like 30-50% on low healt targets wouldn't make of POTL a real execute. With a fixed tooltip like sorc's curse, that would be still less damage than deep fissure's second hit and still retaining the concept of benefitting from the damage you do while POTL is up.

Regarding Radiant Destruction, the only change i'd do would be it's range. 28 meters range + 5 meters from reach passive on an undodgeable execute is way too much, should be at maximum 22 to keep it in line with javelin and it will help with the radiant spamming bots from across the map

I don't really care about RD. I'd just prefer the Backlash ability to get a target in execute range rather than just benefit from it

MudcrabAttack

Major berserk tied to wrecking blow seems nice, but the skill feels so very slow and clunky. Maybe it’s my setup, or maybe a slow server, but as a spammable it takes fractions of a second longer (around 1.2 sec) to weave wrecking blow between light attacks compared to anything else, like flurry from dual wield (1.03 sec), or even snipe from bow skill line (1.06 sec). When I push weaving any faster all the light attacks no longer land

On a nightblade standing directly behind a target dummy with 2H weapons, I can too easily miss assassins will procs after pressing my mouse for the 5th light attack, it winds up resetting the skill and then landing the light attack afterwards- as if the two hand weapon placed too much delay on the light attack. This doesn’t happen with dual wield, and still happens a lot with bow

Bow light attack weaving seemed to be slightly fixed after update 35 (now I get around 1.06 sec weave instead of 1.25 sec) perhaps look into 2H?

The benefit of berserk is gone since so much cumulative time is spent waiting on wrecking blow.

ZOS_Kevin

Cloudrest wrote: »

Backlash and morphs are seriously underperforming in PvP right now. Templar's burst ability should be hitting for more than 2-5k damage against players. Please look at the several threads talking about how weak Templar is currently and address the issue properly for week three of PTS, or look at the several comments on this thread. Nerf beam too, please.

Nightblade is still overperforming due to the unique 10% damage buff attached to concealed weapon.

Sorc changes don't address the issues with the class in PvP.

Hi all, we had a chat with the dev team about this and wanted to follow up. We've seen your feedback regarding Templar and Sorcerer feeling like they are underperforming compared to the other classes. We would like to get some clarity from you all defining what specifically you mean by "underperforming." Specific details and examples would be helpful. This will give the dev team better context around how the community sees these as underperforming, as that term is broad and can be interpreted differently based on each player's playstyle, build, equipment, played content, etc.

ZOS_Kevin

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

There have been 4 or 5 "Necro needs help" feedback posts the past patch cycle alone, each one talking about different areas the class was hurting. Harmony graverobber was Necro's only real use in PvP anymore, and with it gone, Necromancer feels aimless right now.

The developer team often states they want each class to have a certain "feel", flavor, or gameplay fantasy they perform well, so I urge you to consider the question "What does a Necro play like?" with these upcoming changes.

Are they a DoT class? Well, they have 10% DoT damage and 15% DoT reduction, but they aren't really a DoT class - they only have 2 class DoTs, both AOE.

Are they a burst class? Well, blastbones is a strong burst ability, but that's only when it wants to be. Taking out Graverobber doesn't really leave necro with anything that would fit this role.

Well surely they have a unique and exciting, useful class kit right? Almost. They had usefulness in applying Major Vulnerability and Empower, but Major Vuln has many options for application now, and Empower is nearly useless in all scenarios now. Blastbones and the tethers being the exception (with the latter being situational at best) Necros likely won't use many of their other class abilities. Why? Well they need an ability that gives their major damage buff, their major crit buff, and need an on demand stun if they'll be PvPing. They also need to outsource their spammable, as Skulls underperform most of the other alternatives. Are you running proc sets? Then you should probably run even fewer class skills, since Blastbones and the Archer/Arcanist won't proc damage sets, and Ghost won't proc healing sets.

Necro needs some love. They're almost an excellent class but they've been shoehorned into Harmony bombing for so long that the areas they've lacked in have flown under the radar. Now with Harmony bombing gone, and many of their other issues being more significant in today's meta, they need a bit of help. Throw them a lifeline ZOS.

Hi all, we chatted with the dev team to follow up on some of the player commentary around Harmony. First to frame the conversation, we want to reiterate the dev team's thoughts around the change, which was highlighted in the patch notes.

"This trait is currently far too niche for its intended use and is meant to be an enhancer to the Undaunted skill line and group play, but ironically is being utilized more by solo builds in PvP to instantly obliterate large groups. We’re shifting this trait over to be more recovery focused, which has much more use potential between PvE and PvP, rather than trying to continue making a value that doesn’t add more insta-gibbing potential but still has impact enough in PvE.""

To add additional feedback from dev, Harmony was being used in ways outside the intended goals of rewarding group play. Additionally, dev has noted that Necromancers being used as a "bomb" class was outside of the intended scope of play and created a unhealthy play environment.

With that context, we are happy to relay additional questions and/or feedback to dev regarding the this change to Harmony.

ZOS_Kevin

Yamenstein wrote: »

Can a dev please explain the harmony/boneyard nerfs in relation to necro pvp? Is there plans to buff necros or fix up several skills in their skill lines?

As noted in another post, Harmony was being used in ways outside the intended goals of rewarding group play. Additionally, dev has seen Necromancers used as a "bomb" class and this is outside of the intended scope of play. It contributes to creating an unhealthy play environment.

However, we would like to hear from you regarding what you think the class needs. What do you think the class needs and how are you coming to that determination? Let us know - this will help give the dev team a better constructive perspective from all of you.

ESO_Nightingale

Not here to comment on anything in particular but gotta say, @ZOS_Kevin absolutely killing it with the communication bro, keep it up.

This is what we want to see as a community.

ZOS_Kevin

heaven13 wrote: »

I'm sure someone has already pointed it out but DKs and templars had similar reasoning for some changes in some vastly different approaches that feel incredibly unbalanced.

• Dragonknight: Chains of Devastation: This morph now grants Major Berserk for 10 seconds after casting, rather than Empower, as Molten Armaments already grants it in a much more effect way.
• Templar: Everlasting Sweep: Increased the duration of the pulsing Damage over Time to 10 seconds at base, up from 6 seconds.This morph no longer grants Empower, as Solar Flare and its morphs already grant this buff.

So DKs get an added named buff (and a major one) and templars get...4 more seconds of pulsing damage? Seems balanced.

In chatting with the dev team, we wanted to highlight the Chain of Devastation morph was one of the least used abilities in the DK's arsenal. The change was less about buffing the class, and more about creating better incentive to use this underutilized ability more.

That being said, the dev team is looking at adjusting the duration of Berserk to be more challenging to keep up without repeated use of the skill.

ZOS_Kevin

React wrote: »

Wrecking blow has a severe targeting issue. Dizzying swing does NOT have this issue, ONLY the wrecking blow morph has this issue.

The bug: With the wrecking blow morph of uppercut, if you character model turns slightly away from the target you are channeling the ability on, it instantly cancels the channel. This is extremely problematic in PVP, where players are frequently moving around and the server struggles to establish precise locations. This bug is not present on the dizzying swing morph, only on the wrecking blow morph. This doesn't occur if your camera moves away, but only if your character model turns away, as seen in the clip below.

It is so great to finally see this ability getting a much needed buff, and I am excited to once again have the option of playing an uppercut build in PVP - but PLEASE fix this targeting issue so that the skill is useable.

https://streamable.com/z3o92z

Thanks for the feedback here. The team is investigating this.

Zezin

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Yamenstein wrote: »

Can a dev please explain the harmony/boneyard nerfs in relation to necro pvp? Is there plans to buff necros or fix up several skills in their skill lines?

As noted in another post, Harmony was being used in ways outside the intended goals of rewarding group play. Additionally, dev has seen Necromancers used as a "bomb" class and this is outside of the intended scope of play. It contributes to creating an unhealthy play environment.

However, we would like to hear from you regarding what you think the class needs. What do you think the class needs and how are you coming to that determination? Let us know - this will help give the dev team a better constructive perspective from all of you.

Necro lacks common buffs in their toolkit that all other classes have access to combine that with it's lack of burst potential and weak single target skills it's severely underperforming in both PvE and PvP. As such the class needs the following:

1. Access to buffs such as brutality and sorcery
2. Skills that allow it more burst how to accomplish this is hard but reworking skulls could be a way to do it
3. The class would greatly benefit from an execute, a very good suggestion would be to implement this on to hungry scythe
4. lastly the class needs some improved form of crown control as the options currently available are extremely easy to avoid.

FantasticFreddie

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Yamenstein wrote: »

Can a dev please explain the harmony/boneyard nerfs in relation to necro pvp? Is there plans to buff necros or fix up several skills in their skill lines?

As noted in another post, Harmony was being used in ways outside the intended goals of rewarding group play. Additionally, dev has seen Necromancers used as a "bomb" class and this is outside of the intended scope of play. It contributes to creating an unhealthy play environment.

However, we would like to hear from you regarding what you think the class needs. What do you think the class needs and how are you coming to that determination? Let us know - this will help give the dev team a better constructive perspective from all of you.

Why is necro being used as a bomb class such a bad thing? I'm not being snarky, I'm genuinely asking. Nightblade has been the solo bomb class for ages and ages.

To the first point, "Harmony was being used in ways outside the intended goals of rewarding group play", it's also being used for this intended goal. A lot. Your proposed changes will kill the trait entirely, and I can't imagine that is the goal.

ESO_Nightingale

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

heaven13 wrote: »

I'm sure someone has already pointed it out but DKs and templars had similar reasoning for some changes in some vastly different approaches that feel incredibly unbalanced.

• Dragonknight: Chains of Devastation: This morph now grants Major Berserk for 10 seconds after casting, rather than Empower, as Molten Armaments already grants it in a much more effect way.
• Templar: Everlasting Sweep: Increased the duration of the pulsing Damage over Time to 10 seconds at base, up from 6 seconds.This morph no longer grants Empower, as Solar Flare and its morphs already grant this buff.

So DKs get an added named buff (and a major one) and templars get...4 more seconds of pulsing damage? Seems balanced.

In chatting with the dev team, we wanted to highlight the Chain of Devastation morph was one of the least used abilities in the DK's arsenal. The change was less about buffing the class, and more about creating better incentive to use this underutilized ability more.

That being said, the dev team is looking at adjusting the duration of Berserk to be more challenging to keep up without repeated use of the skill.

Regarding this idea of giving some help to underutilized skills @ZOS_Kevin , i was wondering if the team had their eye on frozen retreat as a morph that is barely used? We'll be receiving a class with a much better teleport soon so i think it may soon be a prime time to give this morph a rework, possibly in a damage dealer's direction. Having 2 morphs for a niche tank pull doesn't seem to have worked very well for warden. There was also no mention of frozen gate receiving a taunt effect like other similar pulls. I was wondering if there was any more information on this. Thanks.

CoolBlast3

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Yamenstein wrote: »

Can a dev please explain the harmony/boneyard nerfs in relation to necro pvp? Is there plans to buff necros or fix up several skills in their skill lines?

As noted in another post, Harmony was being used in ways outside the intended goals of rewarding group play. Additionally, dev has seen Necromancers used as a "bomb" class and this is outside of the intended scope of play. It contributes to creating an unhealthy play environment.

However, we would like to hear from you regarding what you think the class needs. What do you think the class needs and how are you coming to that determination? Let us know - this will help give the dev team a better constructive perspective from all of you.

Necromancer has a bit of everything, but lacks a bit of everything too. Living Death & Grave Lord skill lines are fine, leaving my main pain points in Bone Tyrant


The class has no gap closer or mobility options, unlike every other class in the game. This already puts it at a massive disadvantage PvPwise.

The lack of harmony bombing makes it so Necro now has very little burst potentional, as the class does not have a reliable stun. Having bone totem and grave grasp which are both incredibly clunky. Bone totem relies on an enemy staying near it, whilst grave grasp relies on an enemy being at the -perfect- range standing still or walking in a straight line. This is not a common scenario.
Grave Grasp's morph, Empowering Grasp is also a bit meh in PvE due to the Empower changes. Ghostly Embrace morph suffers from the same range/usability issues.

For a class based on DoT damage, seemingly at least, it underperforms a bit there. Perhaps changing the magicka morph of Death Scythe to deal DoTs akin to the stamina morph would be great. Otherwise, make it an execute as necro does not have an execution ability which is another pain point that puts it behind other classes.

TL-DR PvP:
-> Lack of Execute
-> Lack of Mobility
-> Lack of reliable stun
-> Lack of Burst + DoTs being not the best in PvP

TL-DR PvE
-> Lack of execute
-> Grave Grasp is useless in PvE.
-> Fear Totem could also be better, perhaps turning the range morph into a DD morph.

proteinexe

Syiccal wrote: »

I've never understood this argument for sorcs to have a burst heal, thier bust heal is effectively shields which protect HoTs. A shield worth 5-7k is about the same as typical non crit burst heal of templar for example. What sorcs need isn't burst heals it's for shields to crit like burst heals

[/quote]

Shields dont make up for healing, the same way resists dont make up for healing. If i’m having to panic spam my shields to try and cover myself while I heal to half health from execute while being pressured, you’re put in a corner where there’s very little chance of surviving. Not to mention it tanks your sustain which then prevents you from going on the offence. If you dont have healing, shields dont do much.

React

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

React wrote: »

Wrecking blow has a severe targeting issue. Dizzying swing does NOT have this issue, ONLY the wrecking blow morph has this issue.

The bug: With the wrecking blow morph of uppercut, if you character model turns slightly away from the target you are channeling the ability on, it instantly cancels the channel. This is extremely problematic in PVP, where players are frequently moving around and the server struggles to establish precise locations. This bug is not present on the dizzying swing morph, only on the wrecking blow morph. This doesn't occur if your camera moves away, but only if your character model turns away, as seen in the clip below.

It is so great to finally see this ability getting a much needed buff, and I am excited to once again have the option of playing an uppercut build in PVP - but PLEASE fix this targeting issue so that the skill is useable.

https://streamable.com/z3o92z

Thanks for the feedback here. The team is investigating this.

Thanks for the communication today, Kevin! Really great to see zenimax engagement in the PTS section.

ZOS_Kevin

XomRhoK wrote: »

• Overall i like the idea of elusive gameplay with Mist form, often go in and out of Mist form create really good vampiric atmosphere and gameplay.
• At this point, Mist form skills are bugged, character just don't streak to the pointed direction with any settings of ground targeting, he only streaks if Mist form used second time in a raw or if any other skill were used right before using Mist form. Seems not all players affected by this bug.
  And another bug, where character try to streak to Invalid location and regain all magicka, but still receive all buffs. Potentially can be abused.
• Animation of casting Mist form need to be changed, in my opinion. It must be instant witout any scream and movement from the character, because now it looks more like a jump forward with scream, not a elusive movement.
• Elusive mist skill seems ok at the moment in terms how it looks and feel.
• Blood mist, in the other hand, looks and feel bad, in my opinion. Animation of ground effect is bad, it's just a red puddle, looks very cheap and not atmospheric, with mist on top of that puddle it looks acceptable, but without mist, just under the character model it looks bad. DOT last for long 20 seconds, it take away this cool feeling of constant transforming in and out of Mist form. Better make it similar to bat swarm streak that NPC vampires have with cool animation and instant AoE damage, or if you want to keep DOT damage make it last for 4-10 seconds, just to keep reasons to use this skill more often.
  At the begining of the video you can see NPC vampire streak.

We are looking into this issue with Mist form and will update in a future PTS update. Thank you and please keep an eye out for future PTS notes.

acastanza_ESO

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Cloudrest wrote: »

Backlash and morphs are seriously underperforming in PvP right now. Templar's burst ability should be hitting for more than 2-5k damage against players. Please look at the several threads talking about how weak Templar is currently and address the issue properly for week three of PTS, or look at the several comments on this thread. Nerf beam too, please.

Nightblade is still overperforming due to the unique 10% damage buff attached to concealed weapon.

Sorc changes don't address the issues with the class in PvP.

Hi all, we had a chat with the dev team about this and wanted to follow up. We've seen your feedback regarding Templar and Sorcerer feeling like they are underperforming compared to the other classes. We would like to get some clarity from you all defining what specifically you mean by "underperforming." Specific details and examples would be helpful. This will give the dev team better context around how the community sees these as underperforming, as that term is broad and can be interpreted differently based on each player's playstyle, build, equipment, played content, etc.

We've given thread after thread after thread of feedback on how exactly Sorcerer is underperforming. They need us to reiterate this again?!

The defensive toolkit of Shields scaling off max stats when the game does not provide comparable damage for stacking into max stats puts the class at an objective disadvantage to classes that can stack into Weapon and Spell Damage to buff both their offense and defense (considering healing does scale off offensive stats). The short duration of shields, coupled with their inability to crit, and how they render block mitigation completely useless, while also not protecting against incoming abilities execute scaling makes them worse in every possible way than class heals. While Sorcerer's in class heals are either a flying plaguebreak bomb that needs to be constantly resummoned because it ran off and died, or a mediocre channeled skill. Or - a shield from the resto staff skill line that is just as likely to apply to the person next to you as it is to you.
So, by stacking into max magicka (for example), your (mediocre, for the above reasons) shields at least get a decent tooltip, at the cost of significant damage loss due to the extremely lackluster damage scaling for max-stat stacking. But stacking into max damage like everyone else gets to do, your shields are actual garbage and you don't have any in-class heals to speak of (except the problematic bird), but at least you can do good damage. That is not a tradeoff any other class is saddled with, and there isn't enough benefit to it for it to be fair. This is exacerbated by the push towards using proc sets to carry damage. Proc sets which scale off damage stats, and provide lines of damage stats. There are no reasonably comparable damaging proc sets that work with the Max-stat playstyle that continues to be forced on Sorcerer and only Sorcerer.

Secondly - for the 1000th time - the pets are a massive liability in PVP and with the major nerfs to Sorcerer's class skills a couple patches back and the bandaid fix of putting the damage back using only Daedric Prey renders the class's damage toolkit subpar. Pets are not viable in PVP - with the resummon time, their low health, needing to be double barred, and the poor AI. If you're going to continue to force pets on Sorcerers, their disadvantages - particularly the cast times and needing to be double barred need to be addressed. With the lack of access to buffs and debuffs in the Sorcerer toolkit, Sorcerers can't afford to give up the double bar spaces for the pets anyway, even if they were good (they aren't, for the above reasons). Not to mention that basically every half decent offensive skill we have except curse is and extremely slow projectile or extremely telegraphed and can be trivially blocked, dodged, or kited, and don't get me started on the RNG of Frags compared to other big-burst skills for other classes where bursts can be built up and proc'ed reliably. The closest we get is Bound Armaments which can be proced reliably but is, again, a (series of) slow moving projectile that is easily blockable. Oh, and since Frags is a channel, we can't even use it as a primary spammable because it'll get you interrupted and stunlocked, so another bar space has to get used for a real spammable.

Thirdly - as alluded to above and as we've proven in other threads - Sorcerer has the worst access to offensive buffs and debuffs of any class in the game. The typical reasoning given for this is that sorcerer's skill tooltips are high, but with other classes like Nightblade and Warden (and now DK with Breserk on Chains) getting massive damage buffs this is simply no longer the case. The ability to buff and debuff is critical and Sorcerer has access to NONE of it.

Finally, the devs continue to give away our classs toolkit. Streak is a great skill, sure, but the upcoming mistform eats Ball of Lightning's lunch with Major Expedition AND Major Evasion AND 300 W/S damage from Strike from the Shadows. And the Major Berserk (one of the few buffs we get- and not even with a way to reliably apply it to ourselves) from the Sorcerer's Atro ultimate has been rendered completely obsolete by the ubiquity of the Sea Serpant's Coil mythic, and now putting the buff on two skills that people can run to reliably get access to themselves.

I can go on, and on, and on here but there are dozens of threads with detailed criticisms that have been ignored for patch after patch after patch now.

That said, thanks for taking the time to let us know that they're at least aware that we've been giving feedback here. The communication is greatly appreciated.

PrinceShroob

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Hi all, we had a chat with the dev team about this and wanted to follow up. We've seen your feedback regarding Templar and Sorcerer feeling like they are underperforming compared to the other classes. We would like to get some clarity from you all defining what specifically you mean by "underperforming." Specific details and examples would be helpful. This will give the dev team better context around how the community sees these as underperforming, as that term is broad and can be interpreted differently based on each player's playstyle, build, equipment, played content, etc.

My general feeling is that Sorcerer has a lot of holdovers from the game's earliest days. The class overall has an indistinct identity--as an early class, it leaned more heavily into a damage-dealing role, but never received many tools to flesh out tanking and healing. An excellent example of this problem is that healer Sorcerers lack a way to reliably activate the Exploitation passive, as Dark Magic consists of three crowd control skills, a self-sustain tool, and a spammable.

I can't really speak for the PvP side of things, but in PvE, Sorcerers don't really bring much group utility. Dragonknights provide Major Sorcery and Brutality and Engulfing Flames, and can run semi-support sets like Roar of Alkosh and Z'en's Redress. Meanwhile, Sorcerer can only provide Minor Prophecy. There's not much reason to ever bring a Sorcerer if you can just bring a Dragonknight--which are easier to play, anyway, Dragonknight being a standard watch-your-timers class while Sorcerer has finicky skills like Crystal Fragments--which randomly activates and requires you to get consistent activations for high damage--and Daedric Prey--which does absolutely no damage on its own if recast slightly too early and hurts your damage if it falls off too long--that require on-the-spot decision calculus to maximize damage (Do I reapply Daedric Prey or refresh backbar? Do I use my Crystal Fragments proc over Daedric Prey? Et cetera).

To a degree, it is also insulting that slotting class-agnostic Fighters Guild skills provides more of a benefit that slotting class skills.

The class is a hodgepodge of unique skills (such as Negate Magic and Overload, a "pre-execute" in Mages' Fury) without any cohesion. Its forced reliance on class-agnostic skills such as Force Pulse hurts its identity (for a long time, stamina Sorcerer was called the classless stamina class because Sorcerer had so few stamina abilities).

I am hesitant to suggest a complete overhaul of the class; I certainly do not want to be saddled with a lightning staff as you stuck frost staves to Wardens. But there's a lot of room for improvement, even if those improvements do not necessarily result in higher damage.

My personal grievances with Sorcerer lie primarily with Daedric Prey (as it has to completely fall off before it does damage, and I personally find 6-second-cadence rotations slightly too long for my brain to comfortably grasp the rhythm) and the random nature of Crystal Fragments procs. However, I would caution that those are so heavily ingrained in Sorcerer's historical identity that I do not want to see them removed, even if it would increase my own enjoyment with the class.

acastanza_ESO

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

heaven13 wrote: »

I'm sure someone has already pointed it out but DKs and templars had similar reasoning for some changes in some vastly different approaches that feel incredibly unbalanced.

• Dragonknight: Chains of Devastation: This morph now grants Major Berserk for 10 seconds after casting, rather than Empower, as Molten Armaments already grants it in a much more effect way.
• Templar: Everlasting Sweep: Increased the duration of the pulsing Damage over Time to 10 seconds at base, up from 6 seconds.This morph no longer grants Empower, as Solar Flare and its morphs already grant this buff.

So DKs get an added named buff (and a major one) and templars get...4 more seconds of pulsing damage? Seems balanced.

In chatting with the dev team, we wanted to highlight the Chain of Devastation morph was one of the least used abilities in the DK's arsenal. The change was less about buffing the class, and more about creating better incentive to use this underutilized ability more.

That being said, the dev team is looking at adjusting the duration of Berserk to be more challenging to keep up without repeated use of the skill.

The duration of the buff is not the issue at all. The issue is getting access to it at all. DK does not need damage buffs right now, at all. If they need to figure out a way to incentivize the use of this underutilized skill morph find something else instead of putting more damage into an already overperforming class.

TechMaybeHic

@ZOS_Kevin thank you for all the communication you've provided today. Sincerely appreciate it.

I am assuming you are only addressing what this update specifically touched, but has the issue with Templar Backlash doing incredibly low damage while under the effect of Battle Spirit been discussed?

Edit: Sorry. Missed it in Dev Tracker

Ankael07

Regarding Necromancer...not to sound condencending or anything but how about devs tell us what the class is supposed to be so we can give better feedback about where it's lacking?

Not to mention bugs... the class is infested with them. Almost every skill has one or more bugs

gariondavey

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

heaven13 wrote: »

I'm sure someone has already pointed it out but DKs and templars had similar reasoning for some changes in some vastly different approaches that feel incredibly unbalanced.

• Dragonknight: Chains of Devastation: This morph now grants Major Berserk for 10 seconds after casting, rather than Empower, as Molten Armaments already grants it in a much more effect way.
• Templar: Everlasting Sweep: Increased the duration of the pulsing Damage over Time to 10 seconds at base, up from 6 seconds.This morph no longer grants Empower, as Solar Flare and its morphs already grant this buff.

So DKs get an added named buff (and a major one) and templars get...4 more seconds of pulsing damage? Seems balanced.

In chatting with the dev team, we wanted to highlight the Chain of Devastation morph was one of the least used abilities in the DK's arsenal. The change was less about buffing the class, and more about creating better incentive to use this underutilized ability more.

That being said, the dev team is looking at adjusting the duration of Berserk to be more challenging to keep up without repeated use of the skill.

The duration of the buff is not the issue at all. The issue is getting access to it at all. DK does not need damage buffs right now, at all. If they need to figure out a way to incentivize the use of this underutilized skill morph find something else instead of putting more damage into an already overperforming class.

Yes, a dot after landing would be more appropriate if they want the ability to be used more. I play dk, love dk, and it doesn't need major berserk.

PrinceShroob

With regard to Dragonknight, as Fiery Grip pulls the target to you, meaning the morph behaves completely differently, I don't see why the gap closer morph needs a secondary effect at all.

With regard to Necromancer, speaking as someone who likes Necromancer's rotation in PvE, I would be happy with less restrictive targeting on Blastbones (it needs to be directly targeted at an enemy, which is annoying if the target is moving, and seems to be more precise than other single-target skills), a slight adjustment to how long the skeleton takes before exploding (2.5 seconds disrupts casting Blastbones every two skills--perhaps 2 seconds instead?), and an actual secondary effect on Stalking Blastbones (perhaps "if the skeleton has been active for 2 seconds, casting this ability again explodes the skeleton in place and summons a new one"?).

Tannus15

I agree with pretty much everything @acastanza_ESO posted above and I'll double down and reiterate it all for PvE as well.

pets are prey are the only viable option for decent dps on a sorc. i challenge anyone to try and put a mag sorc parse without pets that is anywhere close to a 2 pet build.

while they don't die in PvE they don't proc sets or effects the same way other skills do and they greatly limit sorc flexibility for different roles because so much of our bar space is taken up. basically every sorc build starts with 4 slots for pets, 1 for prey, 1 for frags, 1 for backbar ground aoe. that's 7 out of 10 accounted for, 8 out of 10 if you don't want to run frags as spammable or if you want to run bound armaments instead of frags which REQUIRES a spammable. also note that 5 of these 8 are front bar only.
Literally the only option you get for your front bar is what ult to slot and which spammable to use.

as far as i can see sorc is meant to be a single target dps master, and yet it doesn't stand out as such. it pulls the same single target as everyone else with less group functionality or support or cleave.
it's passives hint at being focused on bursting down full health targets, but none of them are strong enough to justify leaning into that identity and worse, almost all fights get harder in the execute phase so damage in execute is far more valuable than damage in the first 25% of the fight. you would think our execute would make up for that except we don't have the bar space to slot our execute

sorcs badly need to have an alternative to running pets, pets and more pets.
i don't want to see pets nerfed into oblivion, but the prey buff should looked at and an alternative option for sorc dps found.
if that's too much to ask then at least remove the cast time on frags so we can have ONE FLEX SPOT on the front bar

proteinexe

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Hi all, we had a chat with the dev team about this and wanted to follow up. We've seen your feedback regarding Templar and Sorcerer feeling like they are underperforming compared to the other classes. We would like to get some clarity from you all defining what specifically you mean by "underperforming." Specific details and examples would be helpful. This will give the dev team better context around how the community sees these as underperforming, as that term is broad and can be interpreted differently based on each player's playstyle, build, equipment, played content, etc.

This is coming from a purely PvP perspective.

For Templar;

A devastating blow to any potential for templar was the pairing of the jab’s nerf and backlash together (but primarily backlash). I’ve played Templar PvP for a while and it’s strengths are it’s healing and sustained damage. The healing is good, it’s in a strong spot and fits the class well, the healing gives good utility to group play without it being too strong and on the whole templars will be a core healer to any group. The sustained damage was good until the backlash and jabs nerf in Update 35 and 36.

When the jabs changes were made it could be argued that it made sense (not the animation's but the actual core skill). Jabs was a strong spammable and easy for new players to, as they'd say, 'jabjabjabjab'. However, in light of the changes to other spammables like concealed weapon, the jabs nerf seems laughable and it pales in comparison to concealed weapon. Jabs could potentially be left in the same position it is currently and it would still be okay, but I must stress that it would only be okay. The fact that templars have diverted to using other spammables should be a clear indication that something is wrong as jabs is the bread and butter of the class for it's offensive toolkit. But as I said, if jabs didn't change it wouldn't be the end of the class, however, the next point I'll make may and has been detrimental to the class.

Backlash. The change to backlash need's some serious revaluating. Every class has their 'burst' ability; wardens have subteraneal, nightblades have spec bow, sorcs have curse (which is also a point of contention), necro's have blastbones, dk's have whip and templars had backlash. Backlash on my setup before U36 used to hit on average for 8k, with these changes it'll hit for an average of 2.5k in most duels.. the same amount as a standard spammable and this is meant to be your burst skill. The change to backlash single-handedly made the offensive capability for templar redundant in the majority of PvP situations and the changes were so overcomplicated for something which could of been so simple, and I'll elaborate.

Backlash needed a nerf, it needed to be blockable. The skill was overloaded. Power of the Light (morph) was unblockable, undodgable, did very strong damage and would heal the user. In comparison to other such 'burst' skills on other classes, PotL was near the top, so what could have been the nerf? well it just so happened that in update 33 javelin became unblockable, a perfect combination for a nerfed backlash which can now be blocked, ergo pairing the two quite nicely. And honestly I'd say that's it. Yes the damage could be insane, I hit some silly high numbers on a crit plar with 19k Power of the lights, but guess what, I've hit 20k bow procs on nightblade, I've hit 14k blastbones which can be thrown out ever 3 seconds, I've seen whips delete people after a leap.. the list goes on. The reason they're burst abilities is because burst is king in PvP. But having no counter play isn't good for anyone, so backlash not being blockable is just watching the big neon light over your head waiting to delete you and there was very little you could do. The changes that have been made though to backlash make it a joke and it has no real threat seeing the backlash animation about to end because both the user and the person who's about to take the damage know it's no real threat. It needs to return to how it was in one form or another to make templar viable for PvP again.

And a sidenote for backlash, I do PvE a tad and from what I can see, the backlash nerf was purely for PvP so I think there's a good chance to balance this skill and get it back in line with other class burst abilities without disrupting PvE.

KlauthWarthog

Credit where it is due, the interaction today was fantastic.

The actual combat changes themselves are still the direct opposite of fantastic, but... there might be some hope for this game yet, if the devs start listening and, more importantly, question and challenge their own decisions enough before going live.

xylena_lazarow

PvP is still stuck in the dead ball era. Dots are wayyyy too nerfed, healing and sustain wayyyy overbuffed, tl;dr egregiously high TTK and frequent stalemates in anything other than the most lopsided encounters.

TechMaybeHic

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Cloudrest wrote: »

Backlash and morphs are seriously underperforming in PvP right now. Templar's burst ability should be hitting for more than 2-5k damage against players. Please look at the several threads talking about how weak Templar is currently and address the issue properly for week three of PTS, or look at the several comments on this thread. Nerf beam too, please.

Nightblade is still overperforming due to the unique 10% damage buff attached to concealed weapon.

Sorc changes don't address the issues with the class in PvP.

Hi all, we had a chat with the dev team about this and wanted to follow up. We've seen your feedback regarding Templar and Sorcerer feeling like they are underperforming compared to the other classes. We would like to get some clarity from you all defining what specifically you mean by "underperforming." Specific details and examples would be helpful. This will give the dev team better context around how the community sees these as underperforming, as that term is broad and can be interpreted differently based on each player's playstyle, build, equipment, played content, etc.

Straight to the point on templar.

I'll hit POTL in PvE is fine. In PvP under battle Spirit, it seems to be not hit for much more than the new guaranteed damage. I'm not sure if battle spirit is double dipping by mitigating both incoming damage AND the blast, or if the mystery new damage copied is getting added to battle spirit in some way. Either way; it hits not even as hard as a dizzy swing

Maras Balm, the way it procs it's heal on negative effect removal including when the effect refreshes; the snare in Jabs procs it each time after the first set making it mitigated by 1k in PvP, which is substantial in PvP

Maras Balm also tends to proc it's purge on the first POTL attempt, removing our "burst" passively, so even if Backlash is fixed, we'd be dealing with 12 seconds to build up burst vs 3 to 9 seconds, and the one with 9 seconds has as much as Backlash at 3 seconds currently, and nine of those require the damage to be sustained for 6 seconds

I am one that is not so bothered by the state of jabs itself, but along with Maras Balm mitigating it; burning light was reduced 30% damage and when using jabs, it happens half as often so it effectively was a 70% reduction to burning light damage for jabs users

Another thing indirectly impacting jabs is it is counted as AOE but the splash damage is tiny. With this happening, evasion reduces it's damage, and with mist form changes, it will be quite a bit more present.

Maras Balm purging ALL negative effects also has made classes with a purge as a key feature; obsolete.

The above is just what's went wrong the last 2 updates.

Billium813

I think that instead of altering Templars damage once more, how about we give Templar more anti-healing abilities, like Snake in the Stars or Defile? Buff Defile and make it a staple of Dawn's Wrath.

AdamLAD

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Cloudrest wrote: »

Backlash and morphs are seriously underperforming in PvP right now. Templar's burst ability should be hitting for more than 2-5k damage against players. Please look at the several threads talking about how weak Templar is currently and address the issue properly for week three of PTS, or look at the several comments on this thread. Nerf beam too, please.

Nightblade is still overperforming due to the unique 10% damage buff attached to concealed weapon.

Sorc changes don't address the issues with the class in PvP.

Hi all, we had a chat with the dev team about this and wanted to follow up. We've seen your feedback regarding Templar and Sorcerer feeling like they are underperforming compared to the other classes. We would like to get some clarity from you all defining what specifically you mean by "underperforming." Specific details and examples would be helpful. This will give the dev team better context around how the community sees these as underperforming, as that term is broad and can be interpreted differently based on each player's playstyle, build, equipment, played content, etc.

@ZOS_Kevin Im going to be crystal clear on what Magicka Sorcerer is underperforming in, in PvP

Shields/Wards in general are far to weak in the current climate of PvP. You simply cannot keep them up long enough to survive, not because they are 6 seconds in duration but because they are easily destroyed. The 17% buff to Hardened Ward is simply not enough, all Wards must be buffed, which includes annulment/morphs and Healing Ward. To further add to the problem, Shields/Wards are simply too far to expensive in comparison to other defensive abilities in the game, like Vigor for example, whilst also simultaneously being the weakest form of defence in PvP.

To emphasise the point I'm making is that all classes besides Magicka Sorcerer can stack all there attributes into Health, whilst simultaneously stacking weapon/spell damage to an extremely high number. Roughly around 6000 to 7000. The reason a Magicka Sorcerer cannot do this is because all Shields/Wards scale from Maximum Magicka. To add insult to injury Magicka in terms of power is far less significant than weapon/spell damage. The current scaling from Maximum magicka to shield/ward size is simply too low.

In terms of offensive capabilities-: Magicka Sorcerer needs to have an extremely well timed rotational burst that takes alot longer to set up that any other class. Whilst simultaneously trying to keep Shields up at all times (extremely difficult due to above reasons) This is fine as we are ranged and that's what our disadvantage should be in my opinion, (lining up our timed burst) However in PvP people's health is on average 35k Health and most have alot of resistances with brilliant healing due to high weapon and spell damage. Magicka Sorcerer Offensively due to above reason of still scaling with maximum magicka (weaker than weapon and spell damage) simply does NOT have enough damage to burst down these high HP bars whilst also maintaining there defence in Shields/Wards, and since they are so expensive we have to spec into more sustain than damage which would help us Offensively. Also our execute doesn't hit hard at all especially in conjunction with vampire undeath passive being so prevelant in PvP.

Lack off buffs and debuffs-: We do not have major breach in our kit or minor.
We do not have access to any healing majors or minors in our kit
We do not have access to any form of berserk or force
We do not have access to any form of herosim
The list goes on.
According to a recent spreadsheet of a player Sorcerer has the least access to buffs and debuffs in the game in comparison to other classes

Passives: Some are quite simply useless, as of writing this, I'm currently looking at them on my screen. I shall point out the underperforming passives and WHY below

Blood Magic passive: Scales from maximum health, however we scale from maximum magicka for our defence. The idea of it is good, doesn't necessarily need a change, a very small buff would be nice, especially to coencide with new Hardened ward Health scaling for tanks

Persistence passive: It works from blocking, however we do not block as our blocking mitigation goes to 0 when sheilds/wards are applied. I suggest lowering it to 10% and allow it to work from rolldoge AND blocking. This would help stamina and hybrid sorcerer also

Exploitation passive: It gives minor prophecy, not good enough from a PvP perspective as our main defence in Shields/Wards can't even critically strike thus lowering the value of critical modifiers AND critical chance on the class.

Daedric protection passive: It gives 20% Health and Stamina recovery. Health recovery is pointless in PvP due to the nerfs to it In recent years. Stamina recovery only really helps with hybridization or Stamina Sorcerer. I suggest lowering it to 10% but allow it to be for both Magicka and stamina recovery. And since its literally called protection it gives 300 critical resistance or at least SOMETHING. Or just simply call it something else, such as Daedric rejuvenation

Expert summoner passive: it currently gives 8% HP. Simply not good enough. Buff it to 15% and all Shields/Wards now cost 10% less. As stated above they are FAR TO EXPENSIVE. Of course the team can alter the numbers as they see fit.

Energized passive: It gives physical and shock damage increase currently. Most of a Magicka Sorcerers hardest hitting abilities such as curse and frags is not even shock damage. Make it so its all damage by 5%

Expert Mage passive: Currently gives weapon and spell damage. However Magicka Sorcerer scales defensively from primarily maximum magicka and cannot use weapon and spell damage as effectively as other classes. I suggest that the passive also increases maximum magicka by 5%

Amplitude passive: This currently is a reverse execute basically. A fantastic idea but a little bit weak especially in conjunction with the fact our execute is underperforming. I suggest it also increases your damage done to targets under 25% by 5%.


These are the areas in which I think need improvements and are underperforming on magicka sorcerer specifically. No idea if it makes any difference but I have played it for 5 years in PvP at the highest level and have a mass amount of experience on it. Hopefully the team can be take some inspiration from my ideas as a long serving veteran of the class. Thanks for communicating with us all @ZOS_Kevin it's very much appreciated.