Remove all third party software

ZOS_ConnorG

Greetings all,

After review we have had to edit or remove several posts for rule violations. There is some back and forth occurring in this thread, please ensure that this does not escalate or devolve into Baiting or Non-Constructive back and forth. Even if you disagree with another user you must engage in discussion in a civil and constructive manner.

You are welcome to review the Community Rules here.

WastedJoker

Not sure I would bother playing if it wasn't for the addons. So many of them exist simply because the game is missing such function.

Env_t

daemonios wrote: »

You've acknowledged these points, but keep posting as if nobody had said anything, without offering any contribution on why you're unconvinced. That is not a discussion, it's merely you stating your opinion multiple times.

thats why i will reprot this topic now for not constructive, trolling from OP

Guyle

This is never going to happen. ZOS has a perfect setup here where they can leave a lot of the work up to addon developers, instead of adding what most of us would consider to be necessary features to the game, making the amount of work they need to do less, and at the same time they have a scapegoat for issues that happen in the game. I mean, a lot of us have seen the thread(s) where ZOS has straight up blamed addons for being the root cause of certain issues. Why would they give that up? Less work and something to blame when stuff goes wrong. And they basically washed their hands of any responsibility, as they have stated they do not officially support the use of addons, have even gone so far as to say that the game was not intended to be used with addons lol. But yeah, addons are a deal breaker, I'd uninstall the minute that addons were banned, unless they replaced what is missing from the game that addons do.

TheImperfect

Maybe the number of addons you can have active could be limited to say 5-10 but you could have 10+ installed but activate the relevant ones when you need them. Like the crafting one is only needed when crafting etc.

Pinja

Elsonso wrote: »

daemonios wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

Pinja wrote: »

Really OP is just asking if there's anyway to make a trusted client so that the game can start running smooth, and there totally is. People scream impossible here or there, but there's a way to secure the client on standard PCs and Macs. Pretty much you'd need to buy or make a jail broken computer in order to overcome my proposals. And I'll find a way to patch that too.

Nothing on the client can be trusted absolutely. This is especially true of PC clients, since the bar is much lower. Only a remote server can tell if a client has been compromised.

I think there are ways to achieve this. Windows marketplace programs are sandboxed and run as protected processes. I think one of the perks of this way of doing things is that it prevents other programs from messing with the game's process and memory, thus preventing cheat engine-like manipulation of game values.

I really don't want to get into details, so this is the last of it from me. ZOS cannot secure ESO against a determined local user. They have unlimited access to the hardware and software. All ZOS can do is raise the bar to the point that it is very hard to bypass the anti-cheat security, then hope that the people who do break it don't make it trivial to bypass by some process that anyone can follow.

Awe man, your leaving when things are getting good. Look at all the possibilities!
I'm looking at the this windows protected process, it looks very appealing as grounds for a new concept that would request of Apple and Microsoft to create a new shell for gaming. There constantly looking for ways to make their systems better. With the rise of virtual gaming comes contributions and challenges to all in the field. Like UPnP was developed so can this.
If someone big game developer were to reach out and make the suggestion, I'm sure they'd listen.

For now though lets look at what we can do as a third party:

Pevey wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Pinja wrote: »

Really OP is just asking if there's anyway to make a trusted client so that the game can start running smooth, and there totally is. People scream impossible here or there, but there's a way to secure the client on standard PCs and Macs. Pretty much you'd need to buy or make a jail broken computer in order to overcome my proposals. And I'll find a way to patch that too.

Exactly what I am proposing, thank you for trying to understand.

Every computer is or should be a jailbroken computer. If you are proposing something else, you are proposing malware. I’m sure ZOS has looked at this and decided the number of players (like me) who refuse to install a rootkit on their PC on philosophical grounds for any reason, including their favorite game, is greater than the number of people turned off by the cheating. Most players don’t even PVP anyway.

I'm not looking to develop a rootkit if you check out my thread (Though that may be a good Idea to help guard memory stored variables,) but in fact the my proposal would work more like anti-virus or other anti-cheats and monitor the system, not hide from it. This monitoring should be mainly a local process, with little data sent back to the server. I may have to develop the process out a bit more to be effective and respect privacy, but who isn't surrendering that to free services nowadays anyway... I think the only time it should send data is when it finds a tampering or a clashing program.

kringled_1 wrote: »

Pinja wrote: »

Really OP is just asking if there's anyway to make a trusted client so that the game can start running smooth, and there totally is. People scream impossible here or there, but there's a way to secure the client on standard PCs and Macs. Pretty much you'd need to buy or make a jail broken computer in order to overcome my proposals. And I'll find a way to patch that too.

relentless_turnip wrote: »

As I have stated several times over the course of this thread I believe cheating would be easier to detect in the absense of all files not sourced from the developer.

I see the position you are taken, but I don't believe it is based on an accurate assumption.
I don't think actual add-ons trigger any confusion or problems with detection of cheat software, except in forum discussions like this one.
Pinja's point is related, but I think also misses key issues.
I don't believe that cheats have to be installed in the game directory, and as long as users have the ability to install and run other software with administrator privileges, you cannot guarantee that the client is completely trusted. If you want console level security, you need console level control - i.e. users cannot install untrusted software (anywhere on the machine), users cannot run software with administrator privileges outside of well defined system utilities, etc. This is not achievable within the PC gaming environment. Pinja's discussion of jailbreaking points to a misunderstanding; PCs and Macs (as opposed to iOS devices) are in essence by default jailbroken - user can install and execute code from sources of their own choosing.

Very good discussion. You bring up a great point about code injection that I'll have to address in my own thread. While you don't really want to control what is installed on a system, programs can control what is run on a system. Would this mean you'd need to know the name of a hackers program? Not necessarily. Anti-cheats already work with a blacklist but they are easy to work around. What you'd need to do is make a program be aware of when it's data is being tampered with. Totally possible, but I'll do more research before I get back to you.

Does this mean I come without an immediate solution, no not all.
There's a program called Respondus Lockdown Browser I use for school. It's an anti cheat software that monitors and stops applications trying to run through the network drive, and prevents users from using other applications. It even warned me about a windows update saying it could interrupt me while testing. I don't believe it goes as far as to stop all background tasks. For my solution though, that is a developmental option worth testing followed by the developing of a large whitelist.

Another solution is to make the games stored data variables unique to each game license and client. (And or use that rootkit idea to conceal them <_< ) Pretty much you'd encode the variables for the game than use permutations and combinations to assign them to clients and licenses. On top of that make a custom compiler encrypting them so that the code can't be as easily de-compiled using standard de-compilers. What this does is make it harder for hackers and programs to find a a variable like current stamina, because they wont know what to search the memory for. You can change the codes and encryption every update like a really secure password so that if they do find it, it'll expire. Say they do find it, the code and value identifier will be unique so that they can't redistribute the hack and you can narrow down who's hacking depending on what variables codes are being sent back. The servers of course would have to take data and decrypt it license by license, but preform little in terms of calculations. For debugging purposes have an option for support to assign new license encryption.

From ones perspective it'd be easier to plead with Microsoft and Apple and have them do the work.

If anyone wants to help continue or challenge the development of Client Software Checks take a look at the thread. Otherwise I got to up date back and forth.

furiouslog

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Thanks for your input 👍

I used to think as you did, I would offer similar advice and say to research your claim before replying. Cheating is happening and it can't detected because of free use of addons. My point being is that if you eliminate all unknown code from the client it can't be manipulated. This is where add-ons stop this. Unless detection software was implemented with a massive list of exceptions which puts us in exactly the same place.

This statement is not true. Memory editing and stuff like bot farming happens in executables outside the addon framework. There are no cheats that are accessed through the addon API alone. If you got rid of addons, you'd still have those other problems. It would not change how people cheat.

Pevey

There is absolutely no way to prevent people from using cheats that modify client information sent to the server (not addons—which are totally separate things no matter anyone’s opinion of them) on an open system like PC. Even closed systems like the consoles have a hard time preventing people from jail breaking and then cheating. What zos can do, and does do, is implement ways to detect suspicious data sent to the server by doing a lot of integrity checks server side. This costly in terms of resources, but absolutely necessary to some extent. To what extent is a balancing act zos faces every day. It is cat and mouse.

Raudgrani

Arunei wrote: »

Sarannah wrote: »

With those types of add-ons I ofcourse mean the add-ons that mark every location in a zone where a chest could spawn. Giving players a major advantage in finding those chests. Should have said chests, not treasure chests. My bad.

Everyone (on PC anyways) can use these addons though. True, many people don't like to use them for many reasons, but the option is there. And honestly, knowing where treasure chests is isn't really that big of a deal, it doesn't give anyone any sort of huge advantage over everyone else. Part of that reason is because a) treasure chests are flippin' everywhere, and b) I assume most people don't go out and just wildly run after whatever chest is closest, but rather pick specific areas to do their farming, so these people already know where chests in their given circuit is (I have two places where I've memorized where all the chest spawns are).

Now I suppose you can say that knowing where Thieves Troves spawn is more of an advantage thanks to leads and the fact that Troves spawn more randomly than chests do (I think). All the same, there are so many places where Troves can spawn that it still doesn't give a player using an addon to find them all that much of an advantage, because you aren't very likely to run into someone using those addons if you're hunting for leads or something.

Raudgrani wrote: »

It's the "will do it for you" part that's exactly it. I don't want anything to "do it" for me, I want to be the one doing the things. And I mean, when there was this thing telling you if other players were close to you (in sneak) in Cyrodiil, and these things still telling you to dodge/block, cleanse, use potions, when your ultimate is ready and such? Seriously, LEARN to play the game ffs.... How can you feel you've really beaten a vet hm trial, when you have been told exactly everything to do, all along the way? And this is what many groups demand that you use? I mean... Naa-aah...

While I don't agree with using addons that let you detect other players in PvP and auto-dodge for you and all, you need to keep in mind that there are plenty of people who use these addons specifically TO learn how to do harder content. There are plenty of people out there like me who have terrible situational awareness, not because we're bad at the game but for various irl reasons, and having the heads-up that something we might otherwise miss really helps. A lot of things aren't well-telegraphed and if you're like me, who can barely keep track of maybe two things at a time (I get easily overwhelmed), it's very easy to miss them.

So it's not just people wanting to be lazy or not wanting to learn how to play, there are a lot of people who legit benefit from these things and may not otherwise clear content without them. Just because you don't want addons "doing it" for you doesn't mean you should blanket label everyone who does use these things as not playing the game right or something.

Well, this is the case with most thing in this world, that's not allowed - but still doesn't directly hurt anyone. People exploit it. Same with faction lock in this game. "Yeah, but I want to be able of switching alliance because of game balance - me and my friends blah blah blah...", while most people who jump between alliance do it to make balance worse.
The problem with such add-ons isn't that people learn the game, it's that it's being used to gain the upper hand, which they will if their enemies are not using it.

Nobody needs to use them, no one is forcing you to do it - but as it's allowed, you will be almost impaired compared to others. That's why we have a list of medical supplies and procedures, that are not allowed in sports - because otherwise everyone HAD to use them, to have a decent chance. Run "vanilla ESO", and you are way behind those who run a number of add-ons.

amm7sb14_ESO

Considering that I am of the mind that add-ons are among the worst things to ever happen to this game, and have offered me far more negativity to my gamelay experience than benefit, I'm in favor of anything that eliminates their usage in the game.

daemonios

amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »

Considering that I am of the mind that add-ons are among the worst things to ever happen to this game, and have offered me far more negativity to my gamelay experience than benefit, I'm in favor of anything that eliminates their usage in the game.

"I don't like it, so you can't have it".

Healthy attitude.

InvitationNotFound

relentless_turnip wrote: »

InvitationNotFound wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

I appreciate this will be a very unpopular opinion, but I would really love ZOS to remove all third party software.

I would like to preface this by saying I love my add-ons and I don't think the ability to use them should be removed until ZOS adopts some of the most popular ones.
Add-ons like: action duration reminder,
Srendaar, dressing room, easy daily writ etc...

It has become more apparent to me overtime any reason to keep them is greatly outweighed by reasons to not have them.

I have always been one of those people who didn't think cheating was a thing or albeit such a rare thing that I never witnessed it. I am a pretty reasonable PvP player and it has always been my opinion that when I was beaten, I was beaten by a better player. I'm certain that a lot of the time that is still true. But after cheats for sale and seeing said cheats showcased on YouTube I now see the depth of the problem. I have also been to the website where they are sold and seen the insane amount of players who have purchased them. I have linked this site to zos btw...

On top of this it has been frequently said(I can't confirm this) that many functions and calculations were moved server side to eliminate manipulation of accessible game mechanics. If this is true, server strain could be greatly reduced by moving this all back to the client and making any detection of third party software an immediately bannable offence. This means our clients would process all the calculations and send the results to the server. It also means that currently accessible parts of the client could be completely inaccessible and encoded. With ESO implementing detection software that checks there is nothing added to the client that's shouldn't be there.

I appreciate this is a controversial subject, but I would like to hear a discussion around it regardless. Please try to keep it civil 👍

[snip]

a) Addons can't be used to cheat. It isn't possible to fly around and spam some rockets and other weird things.
ZOS defines the API and what is allowed. Furthermore, addons aren't really third party software. Software usually can just run. Addons can't.
b) Third party software (not Addons) are already forbidden to my knowledge. See the ToS.
c) The basics of network code is, that you never should trust client data as a server. This applies to everything. Your E-Banking shouldn't trust user input as it is always possible to send whatever you want. This can't be prevented. Same applies to ESO. Moving things to the client just makes writing cheats easier.

[snip]

It has you that have entirely missed the point of this thread.

I have never stated at all that i believe add-ons are cheating or used to cheat.

I like that you quoted the thread where i stated my thoughts and my reasons believing them.

As I have stated several times over the course of this thread I believe cheating would be easier to detect in the absense of all files not sourced from the developer.

Next time you should take your own advice before broadcasting your opinion and actually read what you are commenting on a subject you haven't taken the time to comprehend.

lol

Everything you write is just wrong. Even this comment.

So lets start:
You complain about addons and talk about cheating while addons have absolutely nothing to do with cheating. But yes, i'm the one who is mixing up things. Sure.

Then you talk about PvP and cheats being for sale. Well done, the cheats sold have nothing to do with addons. But yes, let's remove them. wtf?

You do not even understand how networking works and that it doesn't matter what you do on the client, the server has to verify the data.

Your assumption that the absence of addons would it make easier to spot cheaters is also completely wrong as an addon is not capable of what cheats are actually doing (manipulating the client itself and / or the traffic).

Sorry, but this is just another thread of someone who doesn't understand what he's talking about.
Here, just for you, the current API: https://wiki.esoui.com/API

Now please show me the functionality that could be interpreted as cheating. Almost all functions are used in the base game. You can't manipulate your stats, fly or throw rockets at other players. None of this is possible and most of these functions can be directly called through an action the player could take anyway.
So how should removing addons make detecting cheats easier? It just doesn't.

And again, moving calculations and stuff to the client would make cheating much easier. And again, this has nothing to do with addons.

relentless_turnip

InvitationNotFound wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

InvitationNotFound wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

I appreciate this will be a very unpopular opinion, but I would really love ZOS to remove all third party software.

I would like to preface this by saying I love my add-ons and I don't think the ability to use them should be removed until ZOS adopts some of the most popular ones.
Add-ons like: action duration reminder,
Srendaar, dressing room, easy daily writ etc...

It has become more apparent to me overtime any reason to keep them is greatly outweighed by reasons to not have them.

I have always been one of those people who didn't think cheating was a thing or albeit such a rare thing that I never witnessed it. I am a pretty reasonable PvP player and it has always been my opinion that when I was beaten, I was beaten by a better player. I'm certain that a lot of the time that is still true. But after cheats for sale and seeing said cheats showcased on YouTube I now see the depth of the problem. I have also been to the website where they are sold and seen the insane amount of players who have purchased them. I have linked this site to zos btw...

On top of this it has been frequently said(I can't confirm this) that many functions and calculations were moved server side to eliminate manipulation of accessible game mechanics. If this is true, server strain could be greatly reduced by moving this all back to the client and making any detection of third party software an immediately bannable offence. This means our clients would process all the calculations and send the results to the server. It also means that currently accessible parts of the client could be completely inaccessible and encoded. With ESO implementing detection software that checks there is nothing added to the client that's shouldn't be there.

I appreciate this is a controversial subject, but I would like to hear a discussion around it regardless. Please try to keep it civil 👍

[snip]

a) Addons can't be used to cheat. It isn't possible to fly around and spam some rockets and other weird things.
ZOS defines the API and what is allowed. Furthermore, addons aren't really third party software. Software usually can just run. Addons can't.
b) Third party software (not Addons) are already forbidden to my knowledge. See the ToS.
c) The basics of network code is, that you never should trust client data as a server. This applies to everything. Your E-Banking shouldn't trust user input as it is always possible to send whatever you want. This can't be prevented. Same applies to ESO. Moving things to the client just makes writing cheats easier.

[snip]

It has you that have entirely missed the point of this thread.

I have never stated at all that i believe add-ons are cheating or used to cheat.

I like that you quoted the thread where i stated my thoughts and my reasons believing them.

As I have stated several times over the course of this thread I believe cheating would be easier to detect in the absense of all files not sourced from the developer.

Next time you should take your own advice before broadcasting your opinion and actually read what you are commenting on a subject you haven't taken the time to comprehend.

lol

Everything you write is just wrong. Even this comment.

So lets start:
You complain about addons and talk about cheating while addons have absolutely nothing to do with cheating. But yes, i'm the one who is mixing up things. Sure.

Then you talk about PvP and cheats being for sale. Well done, the cheats sold have nothing to do with addons. But yes, let's remove them. wtf?

You do not even understand how networking works and that it doesn't matter what you do on the client, the server has to verify the data.

Your assumption that the absence of addons would it make easier to spot cheaters is also completely wrong as an addon is not capable of what cheats are actually doing (manipulating the client itself and / or the traffic).

Sorry, but this is just another thread of someone who doesn't understand what he's talking about.
Here, just for you, the current API: https://wiki.esoui.com/API

Now please show me the functionality that could be interpreted as cheating. Almost all functions are used in the base game. You can't manipulate your stats, fly or throw rockets at other players. None of this is possible and most of these functions can be directly called through an action the player could take anyway.
So how should removing addons make detecting cheats easier? It just doesn't.

And again, moving calculations and stuff to the client would make cheating much easier. And again, this has nothing to do with addons.

For the millionth time I have never stated that add ons are cheating... I enjoy them myself.

Please read. The point I have emphasized at least 10 times is that the removal of any third party input MAY bring more clarity in identifying unwanted programs, as other have confirmed must interact with the client in some way. I am NOT suggesting this is via API.

I have had a meaningful conversation with many people over the course of this thread who do know what they are talking about. I feel you have started a discussion based on an assumption.

My suggestion that SOME calculations could be moved server side was stated as speculation based on what others have said in previous posts. I am happy to admit that I don't know how true this is.

I can send you a link to a site where someone is selling software that enables you to fly, wall break, stop your opponents attack etc... Again I am not suggesting this is via API, it is via the client memory in some way. It was created in November 2019 and updated in June 2020. The amount of interest from our community is staggering and you may be interested to see it regardless.

My suggestion is again it MAY help the detection of unwanted third party input. As file names created by zos can be named and tagged. Anything found in the directory outside of those tagged should stop the client loading imo. It would be impossible for that to be the case for all add-ons unless zos was in control of them. Which was another good suggestion made in this thread. We could keep them, but they could be downloadable from zos with a tag that would be recognised on a client check upon launch.

I could make a file now drop it in the directory and it wouldn't change a thing, as there is nothing in place to stop this. Yes there are server checks, but this is clearly not enough... I am talking about creating more clarity, more so than the removal of add-ons I admit the title may have been baiting.

InvitationNotFound

relentless_turnip wrote: »

InvitationNotFound wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

InvitationNotFound wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

I appreciate this will be a very unpopular opinion, but I would really love ZOS to remove all third party software.

I would like to preface this by saying I love my add-ons and I don't think the ability to use them should be removed until ZOS adopts some of the most popular ones.
Add-ons like: action duration reminder,
Srendaar, dressing room, easy daily writ etc...

It has become more apparent to me overtime any reason to keep them is greatly outweighed by reasons to not have them.

I have always been one of those people who didn't think cheating was a thing or albeit such a rare thing that I never witnessed it. I am a pretty reasonable PvP player and it has always been my opinion that when I was beaten, I was beaten by a better player. I'm certain that a lot of the time that is still true. But after cheats for sale and seeing said cheats showcased on YouTube I now see the depth of the problem. I have also been to the website where they are sold and seen the insane amount of players who have purchased them. I have linked this site to zos btw...

On top of this it has been frequently said(I can't confirm this) that many functions and calculations were moved server side to eliminate manipulation of accessible game mechanics. If this is true, server strain could be greatly reduced by moving this all back to the client and making any detection of third party software an immediately bannable offence. This means our clients would process all the calculations and send the results to the server. It also means that currently accessible parts of the client could be completely inaccessible and encoded. With ESO implementing detection software that checks there is nothing added to the client that's shouldn't be there.

I appreciate this is a controversial subject, but I would like to hear a discussion around it regardless. Please try to keep it civil 👍

[snip]

a) Addons can't be used to cheat. It isn't possible to fly around and spam some rockets and other weird things.
ZOS defines the API and what is allowed. Furthermore, addons aren't really third party software. Software usually can just run. Addons can't.
b) Third party software (not Addons) are already forbidden to my knowledge. See the ToS.
c) The basics of network code is, that you never should trust client data as a server. This applies to everything. Your E-Banking shouldn't trust user input as it is always possible to send whatever you want. This can't be prevented. Same applies to ESO. Moving things to the client just makes writing cheats easier.

[snip]

It has you that have entirely missed the point of this thread.

I have never stated at all that i believe add-ons are cheating or used to cheat.

I like that you quoted the thread where i stated my thoughts and my reasons believing them.

As I have stated several times over the course of this thread I believe cheating would be easier to detect in the absense of all files not sourced from the developer.

Next time you should take your own advice before broadcasting your opinion and actually read what you are commenting on a subject you haven't taken the time to comprehend.

lol

Everything you write is just wrong. Even this comment.

So lets start:
You complain about addons and talk about cheating while addons have absolutely nothing to do with cheating. But yes, i'm the one who is mixing up things. Sure.

Then you talk about PvP and cheats being for sale. Well done, the cheats sold have nothing to do with addons. But yes, let's remove them. wtf?

You do not even understand how networking works and that it doesn't matter what you do on the client, the server has to verify the data.

Your assumption that the absence of addons would it make easier to spot cheaters is also completely wrong as an addon is not capable of what cheats are actually doing (manipulating the client itself and / or the traffic).

Sorry, but this is just another thread of someone who doesn't understand what he's talking about.
Here, just for you, the current API: https://wiki.esoui.com/API

Now please show me the functionality that could be interpreted as cheating. Almost all functions are used in the base game. You can't manipulate your stats, fly or throw rockets at other players. None of this is possible and most of these functions can be directly called through an action the player could take anyway.
So how should removing addons make detecting cheats easier? It just doesn't.

And again, moving calculations and stuff to the client would make cheating much easier. And again, this has nothing to do with addons.

For the millionth time I have never stated that add ons are cheating... I enjoy them myself.

Please read. The point I have emphasized at least 10 times is that the removal of any third party input MAY bring more clarity in identifying unwanted programs, as other have confirmed must interact with the client in some way. I am NOT suggesting this is via API.

Again, you are nowhere writing this in the initial post. The title of this thread is "Remove all third party software".
Yet all you want to see removed are addons, which aren't properly considered third party software.
I'm referring to that post.

Furthermore, if the API isn't used for cheating, there is no reason to adjust or remove it. That simple.
Removing it won't help you at all.

And btw. removing "other" third party software isn't possible as it is the users' decision what software they want on their PC.

So your post is wrong and misleading.

relentless_turnip wrote: »

I have had a meaningful conversation with many people over the course of this thread who do know what they are talking about. I feel you have started a discussion based on an assumption.

So you were talking with some people on the internet. And they are right because why?
And why am I making assumptions here and not them?

Maybe it helps to give you some background information on what i do for a living.
I work in IT security. I'm paid to break systems / applications.

This here is actually exactly the same.
E.g. If I'm on a contract to test the security of a web application I'll manipulate the content sent to the application and check how the application reacts to it. If the programmer made a mistake or didn't know certain things, there might be a vulnerability that allows me to get the content of the whole database or i may run my own code on the server (and so on).

( See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penetration_test )


The main issue is that server / application either trusts the client's data or doesn't verify it properly.

It is exactly the same here in ESO. The client always can send whatever it wants to the server. The server has to verify the data, otherwise cheating (or you might even have a security vulnerability...) is possible.

That's basic knowledge that you hopefully learn while becoming a programmer (or if you work in IT).

relentless_turnip wrote: »

My suggestion that SOME calculations could be moved server side was stated as speculation based on what others have said in previous posts. I am happy to admit that I don't know how true this is.

Actually you wrote you want to move them to the client. Not to the server where they would belong to.

relentless_turnip wrote: »

I can send you a link to a site where someone is selling software that enables you to fly, wall break, stop your opponents attack etc... Again I am not suggesting this is via API, it is via the client memory in some way. It was created in November 2019 and updated in June 2020. The amount of interest from our community is staggering and you may be interested to see it regardless.

I never said that cheats do not exist. They just don't use the API as the API doesn't allow anything like that.

Either the client / RAM is manipulated or a custom proxy manipulates the data on the fly.

But again, that's third party software and not addons.

You can't prevent people installing software. Removing addons wont change a thing.

relentless_turnip wrote: »

My suggestion is again it MAY help the detection of unwanted third party input. As file names created by zos can be named and tagged. Anything found in the directory outside of those tagged should stop the client loading imo. It would be impossible for that to be the case for all add-ons unless zos was in control of them. Which was another good suggestion made in this thread. We could keep them, but they could be downloadable from zos with a tag that would be recognised on a client check upon launch.

This doesn't work like that. Your client is in your full control.
You can manipulate whatever you want.

Let me try to explain this a little bit better:
If your game verifies what is being loaded, you just have to alter this process so that the game considers what is loaded as valid. As you are in full control of everything, this can be achieved. Adding more detection mechanisms just slows down the developer of a cheat, nothing more.

In the worst case, the developer just analyzes the game and writes a completely new client that sends the manipulated data to the server.

And there you are again. The server has to verify the data and you have nothing gained.

Furthermore, ZOS already tells addons what they are allowed to by the API. There aren't any API calls that are harmful or allow cheating. (and if so, report them and ZOS will adjust them)

relentless_turnip wrote: »

I could make a file now drop it in the directory and it wouldn't change a thing, as there is nothing in place to stop this. Yes there are server checks, but this is clearly not enough... I am talking about creating more clarity, more so than the removal of add-ons I admit the title may have been baiting.

Server checks are the only effective thing here. Clients have to be considered not trusted as they can be completely manipulated.

But hey, you might ask yourself at this point how banks secure their e-banking and why most of them do not have any special software or browser that have to be used? Yes, because their applications (hopefully) verify the data they receive. Seems to be enough? Interesting, isn't it? (and of course it is a bit more complicated than that, as monitoring, patch management, waf, ids / ips and other things are in place as well. yet, the main line of defense is input validation).

amm7sb14_ESO

daemonios wrote: »

amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »

Considering that I am of the mind that add-ons are among the worst things to ever happen to this game, and have offered me far more negativity to my gamelay experience than benefit, I'm in favor of anything that eliminates their usage in the game.

"I don't like it, so you can't have it".

Healthy attitude.

"If you want to play with us you have to download it"

Healthy attitude.

Futard

amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »

daemonios wrote: »

amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »

Considering that I am of the mind that add-ons are among the worst things to ever happen to this game, and have offered me far more negativity to my gamelay experience than benefit, I'm in favor of anything that eliminates their usage in the game.

"I don't like it, so you can't have it".

Healthy attitude.

"If you want to play with us you have to download it"

Healthy attitude.

What's the issue with that exactly?
You are not forced to do anything.

In most scenarios you want to play with a group that is a bit more organized, otherwise they wouldn't set up such a requirement. So it is your choice if you want to or not.

Furthermore, it isn't an issue to download an addon. Or how may i help you in downloading it?

amm7sb14_ESO

Futard wrote: »

amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »

daemonios wrote: »

amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »

Considering that I am of the mind that add-ons are among the worst things to ever happen to this game, and have offered me far more negativity to my gamelay experience than benefit, I'm in favor of anything that eliminates their usage in the game.

"I don't like it, so you can't have it".

Healthy attitude.

"If you want to play with us you have to download it"

Healthy attitude.

What's the issue with that exactly?
You are not forced to do anything.

In most scenarios you want to play with a group that is a bit more organized, otherwise they wouldn't set up such a requirement. So it is your choice if you want to or not.

Furthermore, it isn't an issue to download an addon. Or how may i help you in downloading it?

The problem with them is that like meta sets and builds, they lead to an ideology throughout the community that having them is the one and only way that content and be cleared, it influences future game design of new content to be built around those new expectations, and anyone who doesn't play that one and only way is left out of content as people who do play that way think they have an exclusive claim to end game content. It never just stops at "organized group", which can be achieved without mandated sets or add ons. It escalates into a full blown intrusion upon other people and how they should play, telling them what skills to use, sets to run, add one to download, how to set up bars, what color to make mechanics notifiers, not allowing use of controllers, and on and on and on.

They are 100% unnecessary and requiring add-ons to join a group is nothing short of gate keeping. People think they have a right to dictate how others do or don't play the game.

I don't need help downloading it because I will never download addons like Raid Notifier

zaria

relentless_turnip wrote: »

InvitationNotFound wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

InvitationNotFound wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

I appreciate this will be a very unpopular opinion, but I would really love ZOS to remove all third party software.

I would like to preface this by saying I love my add-ons and I don't think the ability to use them should be removed until ZOS adopts some of the most popular ones.
Add-ons like: action duration reminder,
Srendaar, dressing room, easy daily writ etc...

It has become more apparent to me overtime any reason to keep them is greatly outweighed by reasons to not have them.

I have always been one of those people who didn't think cheating was a thing or albeit such a rare thing that I never witnessed it. I am a pretty reasonable PvP player and it has always been my opinion that when I was beaten, I was beaten by a better player. I'm certain that a lot of the time that is still true. But after cheats for sale and seeing said cheats showcased on YouTube I now see the depth of the problem. I have also been to the website where they are sold and seen the insane amount of players who have purchased them. I have linked this site to zos btw...

On top of this it has been frequently said(I can't confirm this) that many functions and calculations were moved server side to eliminate manipulation of accessible game mechanics. If this is true, server strain could be greatly reduced by moving this all back to the client and making any detection of third party software an immediately bannable offence. This means our clients would process all the calculations and send the results to the server. It also means that currently accessible parts of the client could be completely inaccessible and encoded. With ESO implementing detection software that checks there is nothing added to the client that's shouldn't be there.

I appreciate this is a controversial subject, but I would like to hear a discussion around it regardless. Please try to keep it civil 👍

[snip]

a) Addons can't be used to cheat. It isn't possible to fly around and spam some rockets and other weird things.
ZOS defines the API and what is allowed. Furthermore, addons aren't really third party software. Software usually can just run. Addons can't.
b) Third party software (not Addons) are already forbidden to my knowledge. See the ToS.
c) The basics of network code is, that you never should trust client data as a server. This applies to everything. Your E-Banking shouldn't trust user input as it is always possible to send whatever you want. This can't be prevented. Same applies to ESO. Moving things to the client just makes writing cheats easier.

[snip]

It has you that have entirely missed the point of this thread.

I have never stated at all that i believe add-ons are cheating or used to cheat.

I like that you quoted the thread where i stated my thoughts and my reasons believing them.

As I have stated several times over the course of this thread I believe cheating would be easier to detect in the absense of all files not sourced from the developer.

Next time you should take your own advice before broadcasting your opinion and actually read what you are commenting on a subject you haven't taken the time to comprehend.

lol

Everything you write is just wrong. Even this comment.

So lets start:
You complain about addons and talk about cheating while addons have absolutely nothing to do with cheating. But yes, i'm the one who is mixing up things. Sure.

Then you talk about PvP and cheats being for sale. Well done, the cheats sold have nothing to do with addons. But yes, let's remove them. wtf?

You do not even understand how networking works and that it doesn't matter what you do on the client, the server has to verify the data.

Your assumption that the absence of addons would it make easier to spot cheaters is also completely wrong as an addon is not capable of what cheats are actually doing (manipulating the client itself and / or the traffic).

Sorry, but this is just another thread of someone who doesn't understand what he's talking about.
Here, just for you, the current API: https://wiki.esoui.com/API

Now please show me the functionality that could be interpreted as cheating. Almost all functions are used in the base game. You can't manipulate your stats, fly or throw rockets at other players. None of this is possible and most of these functions can be directly called through an action the player could take anyway.
So how should removing addons make detecting cheats easier? It just doesn't.

And again, moving calculations and stuff to the client would make cheating much easier. And again, this has nothing to do with addons.

For the millionth time I have never stated that add ons are cheating... I enjoy them myself.

Please read. The point I have emphasized at least 10 times is that the removal of any third party input MAY bring more clarity in identifying unwanted programs, as other have confirmed must interact with the client in some way. I am NOT suggesting this is via API.

I have had a meaningful conversation with many people over the course of this thread who do know what they are talking about. I feel you have started a discussion based on an assumption.

My suggestion that SOME calculations could be moved server side was stated as speculation based on what others have said in previous posts. I am happy to admit that I don't know how true this is.

I can send you a link to a site where someone is selling software that enables you to fly, wall break, stop your opponents attack etc... Again I am not suggesting this is via API, it is via the client memory in some way. It was created in November 2019 and updated in June 2020. The amount of interest from our community is staggering and you may be interested to see it regardless.

My suggestion is again it MAY help the detection of unwanted third party input. As file names created by zos can be named and tagged. Anything found in the directory outside of those tagged should stop the client loading imo. It would be impossible for that to be the case for all add-ons unless zos was in control of them. Which was another good suggestion made in this thread. We could keep them, but they could be downloadable from zos with a tag that would be recognised on a client check upon launch.

I could make a file now drop it in the directory and it wouldn't change a thing, as there is nothing in place to stop this. Yes there are server checks, but this is clearly not enough... I am talking about creating more clarity, more so than the removal of add-ons I admit the title may have been baiting.

The cheat program you are talking about is code injection.
SKSE uses code injection to expand an API simply as expanding make its easier for moders but you can just as well make it totally separate and it does not need an existing API. You can use code injection on old Nintendo games.
Now the cheat software can use the existing API to get data however the API is not very suited for cheats or bot running.

Now some addons generate load, espesialy trading data, now an simple solution is to disable this interface in Cyrodil and perhaps trials. Its pretty pointless here anyway
Almost all addon only get data, the one who send stuff is stuff like dressing room who change gear and bar layout who is perhaps 30 calls, and easy crafting who is overland only.

Futard

amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »

Futard wrote: »

amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »

daemonios wrote: »

amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »

Considering that I am of the mind that add-ons are among the worst things to ever happen to this game, and have offered me far more negativity to my gamelay experience than benefit, I'm in favor of anything that eliminates their usage in the game.

"I don't like it, so you can't have it".

Healthy attitude.

"If you want to play with us you have to download it"

Healthy attitude.

What's the issue with that exactly?
You are not forced to do anything.

In most scenarios you want to play with a group that is a bit more organized, otherwise they wouldn't set up such a requirement. So it is your choice if you want to or not.

Furthermore, it isn't an issue to download an addon. Or how may i help you in downloading it?

They are 100% unnecessary and requiring add-ons to join your group is nothing short of gate keeping.

They are necessary as ZOS didn't implement a good UI. There are things only available through AddOns. Yet, ZOS provided an API to extend the bad UI they would have.

Furthermore, no group that isn't going for some organization is requiring anything. If you join a random group for dungeons, trial or pvp, there won't be such a requirement.

If you want to play with people that care a bit more about the game, the mechanics and getting things done then yes, they may want something like that. It is your choice if you want that too or not.

If you don't like it, do not play with such players. Easy.

That doesn't mean they shouldn't be there. That's just your own problem not wanting to run any addon.

Besides of those group addons there are plenty of non-group related addon that are very useful. Yet, you want them to disappear because you don't like it.

Please explain a bit more what your issue is with the addons you do not like...
You don't have the right setup that is required and people now notice?
You're not dealing enough healing or damage and people now notice?
It is too difficult to download an addon or install minion?
Because you have to do something for a group you play in every few month or so by downloading something?

Seriously, I really would love to understand what your problem with addons is.

amm7sb14_ESO

They are not necessary, there is only 1 platform of the 3 this game is on that even has access to add ons and those on the other 2 platforms do just fine without it.

Futard

amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »

They are not necessary, there is only 1 platform of the 3 this game is on that even has access to add ons and those on the other 2 platforms do just fine without it.

Yes, if you want to waste a lot of time.

Do writs on all you chars without an addon. It is just a complete stupid waste of time.

Port to players houses. Only barely implemented in the game. Even ZOS was using an addon to do their housing stream as their UI would just suck without addons.

They are a nice to have. If you want it, use it.

But then again. There are still some questions for you to answer:
Please explain a bit more what your issue is with the addons you do not like...
You don't have the right setup that is required and people now notice?
You're not dealing enough healing or damage and people now notice?
It is too difficult to download an addon or install minion?
Because you have to do something for a group you play in every few month or so by downloading something?

Seriously, I really would love to understand what your problem with addons is.

amm7sb14_ESO

Your questions aren't worth answering because they make a lot of invalid assumptions that have nothing to do with anything. In fact, your assumptions (and your claim that not using an add on is "wasting time") continue to validate my point that people that require add ons automatically believe that it is the only way to do things and anyone not using them isn't pulling their weight.

I've already explained my problem with add ons.

Futard

amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »

Your questions aren't worth answering because they make a lot of invalid assumptions that have nothing to do with anything. In fact, your assumptions (and your claim that not using an add on is "wasting time") continue to validate my point that people that require add ons automatically believe that it is the only way to do things and anyone not using them isn't pulling their weight.

I've already explained my problem with add ons.

No, you didn't explain anything. If you consider doing writs without addon a great thing, well, if you like that kind of RP. Enjoy yourself. The majority certainly considers it a waste of time without addon.

But yes, not answering the question and blame it on other players is certainly the way to go. Makes a good and valid point for you.... oh no, it doesn't. sorry mate.

RedTalon

I really don't use addons overly much myself so them going away won't effect anything for me, when are they elimating all addons anyhow?

Will be good for the game

Gythral

Remove all 3rd party software??? (What 3rd party software?)

PC only uses, "add-ons" which are tools developed using the existing software!
so when ZOS invest in producing a UI that does what all the add-ons do, then thios discussion becomes valid

Yes I CAN do most things without an add-on, just WHY WOULD I, when the QOL improvement of add-ons render the game much more 'fun' than the 'minimal' UI of the game!

Futard

RedTalon wrote: »

I really don't use addons overly much myself so them going away won't effect anything for me, when are they elimating all addons anyhow?

Will be good for the game

They aren't. There is no reason to remove them.

Hallothiel

And yet us poor simple console folk have been managing to play the game without all this hand-holding for years.......(the writ one? I would ban it. You want the benefits of doing the writs, then damn well do them. 😘)

But then how does this idea work in regards to consoles, when as mentioned, we don’t have all this malarky and yet have poor performance in pvp?

Pinja

Hallothiel wrote: »

And yet us poor simple console folk have been managing to play the game without all this hand-holding for years.......(the writ one? I would ban it. You want the benefits of doing the writs, then damn well do them. 😘)

But then how does this idea work in regards to consoles, when as mentioned, we don’t have all this malarky and yet have poor performance in pvp?

Well that's one thing they could change for console and try getting rid of some of our server side checks. The bad performance may exist impart because they redundantly included the server side checks for consoles. It would definitely be something to test.

Pevey

Hallothiel wrote: »

And yet us poor simple console folk have been managing to play the game without all this hand-holding for years.......(the writ one? I would ban it. You want the benefits of doing the writs, then damn well do them. 😘)

But then how does this idea work in regards to consoles, when as mentioned, we don’t have all this malarky and yet have poor performance in pvp?

You have poor performance in PVP because ZOS still has to do checks to prevent cheating. People hack consoles and cheat there, too. It has nothing to do with addons. The whole point people are trying to make to the OP is that addons and cheating have nothing to do with one another. Cheating does happen in ESO, as it does in any game. I’m sure ZOS continually updates their tests in response to reports to keep it from happening, but eso is a vast game with many variables. There are going to be unseen paths that zos adds checks for later.

The recent hacker throwing boss fireballs from the air is a good example. He was reported. Zos will investigate. The team will add new checks to make sure that specific type of cheat doesn’t happen again. It will probably involve server side checks on that ability to make sure it is not being invoked in certain areas or by any character other than the boss intended to be able to use that ability. And because of new checks, there will be some necessary performance impact. This is the constant battle any game developer fights against cheaters. And it has ZERO to do with the addon framework zos has created and ENCOURAGED developers to use.

People complain that when they record and report cheaters, nothing seems to happen. It may seem that way, but if zos is smart, of course they would not just ban that player right away. They will watch the player, look at the data, try to learn all they can about what is being done and how. Then they will update the tests accordingly, and maybe then ban if they feel like it. But it’s better to stop 100 people from being able to use a particular cheat than to immediately ban the one person caught on video doing it.

Linaleah

amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »

Your questions aren't worth answering because they make a lot of invalid assumptions that have nothing to do with anything. In fact, your assumptions (and your claim that not using an add on is "wasting time") continue to validate my point that people that require add ons automatically believe that it is the only way to do things and anyone not using them isn't pulling their weight.

I've already explained my problem with add ons.

find a group that doesn't require them. yes, they exist.

or do you think console players don't have requirements for their groups/guilds? they might be different kinds of requirements but they are still there.

case in point. on pc most larger trading guilds have minimum sales requirements in lieu of weekly fees. the ONLY reason they can do so is due to trading addons tracking sales and taxes earned by a guild, allowing them much easier tracking of personal contributions. on console? you are pretty much stuck with weekly fees, because tracking on a level of pc is impossible.

there are dps requirements, set requirements for trials and so on and so forth. people who organize a group? get to tell that group's members how they want/need them to play. and YOU get to decide whether their requirements work with your preferences and whether you want to join that group in a first place.

existence of addons does not change this paradigm.