Remove all third party software
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Raudgrani✭✭✭✭✭
✭zergbase_ESO wrote: »
Called minion. I click update and done. Man that was soooooooo hard. Always some window licker.
I like idea of an addon system built into game to down load it and allowing ps4 and Xbox to do the same probably be quality of life improvement. Only issue being if systems can handle it. Maybe next gen for sure but current gen idk if I would trust on such. Like FF14 can tell who was on ps4 by how slow they reacted due to system lag or way they moved
.
Updating the ones you have, of course. I'm not a total waste of breath, I get that part. But what I meant was finding out about and installing the latest handicap/cheat add-ons, that you "just must have", and even NEED to have to be let into certain trial groups etc.
It's not like people run the exact same add-ons today, as they did when the game was new, or like 2 years ago either. It's a mess, and I'm not touching it - no matter how many minions there are to update them for me. They clutter the game too, as is obvious every time someone writes here about a problem they have, and everyone's first suggestion is "Have you tried to disable all your add-ons?". I have been playing other games, using those kind of things. But I ain't no more.
I can also almost 100% guarantee ZOS regrets ever allowing any kind of add-ons in the game. I can see why they won't remove them, all these comfy minion on-clickers would make such a deal out of it, that the game would never recover.
Doubt it will ever come for consoles, not "nextgen" either, because I know Microsoft are very reluctant to having these possibilities in the game. They are cautious about letting "just about anyone" dabble with the contents on consoles, probably rightfully so.0 -
Linaleah✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭oh hey guys, remember when there were people who kept complaining about premades and so ZoS made solo queue for battlegrounds only? and people are STILL claiming that premades are cheesing the queue, because its easier to blame someone else rather then admit your own short comings? I do
why do i bring this up? cause my SO has been playing ESO again, though this time he pretty much sticks to pvp 100% of the time. you want to know what addons he uses in pvp? minimap and that addon that lets you know what castle or whatever is under attack (which is the same information you get by pulling up your map, but it now flashes across the screen even when you are not looking at your map). I know for a fact he is not using any cheats.
he's been doing really well. not against everyone, there are people who kick HIS butt regularly as well, but against a lot of people - he's been doing very well. we crafted him some nice gear, he dyed it the most nondescript annoying to target or see against environment dye he could find, and he's been practicing his weaving timing on a target dummy in my house between battleground queues (he has his own house and a target dummy, that free one everyone got last year, but he likes my house, cause I have a crafting nook and a banker in mine). I've seen his battleground scores.
and I guarantee that some of the people he has gone up against? are convinced that he must be cheating in some way, because it cannot POSSIBLY be taking an effort to get his gear all set up, or practicing his rotations, and just paying attention etc. it has to be cheating, it has to be addons or any other excuse under the sun.
are there people who do cheat? yeah most certainly. but i'm going to let you in on a little secret. they cheat on console by running third party software as well! because cheating and addons are NOT. THE SAME. THING.
P.S. almost every single quality of life improvement added to the game over the years... started as an addon.Edited by Linaleah on August 7, 2020 6:48PMdirty worthless casual.
Lois McMaster Bujold "A Civil Campaign"Reputation is what other people know about you. Honor is what you know about yourself. Guard your honor. Let your reputation fall where it will. And outlive the ***2 -
BigBragg✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭relentless_turnip wrote: »
I don't see how, but I appreciate to a degree words are subjective 🤔
You've stated that you use and appreciate the functionality of some add-ons, but want to eliminate all of them because you dislike others. I would guess that you proportionately like more than you dislike, so to me the scorched Earth response of removing all of them makes zero sense. If there is particular functionality that you take issue with, then target that specifically. You won't be destroying beneficial things in the process of petitioning for a change that may be positive. My two cents.3 -
Miraslova✭✭✭Addons are not third party software, they're a part of the game, there's even a forum catagory: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/categories/add-ons-and-ui-mods
The OP has addons confused with hacks, they're completely different things actually night and day."An it harm none, do what thou wilt"6 -
Fur_like_snow✭✭✭✭✭
✭relentless_turnip wrote: »
Dying in PvP has nothing to do with this thread.
A lot of people have added a meaningful response to this thread. I might not agree with all of them, but they have actually had a point to make and have articulated it.
These sorts of comments are about as useful as running into a riot and shouting "fire hot".
I welcome your opinion, but please don't just assume the context. My thoughts and what lead to the creation of this thread can be found at the beginning. The conversation had since evolved and would be worth reading before weighing in 👍
So you looked at a website and didn’t like what you saw now you’re asking Zeni to ban all addons? Is that correct? Because that is effectively throwing the baby out with the bath water or to use your own example yelling fire hot in a burning building. My original comment was on point. You’re just driven by bias and some new “knowledge” and you’re willing to ruin QoF for everyone to “stop” PvP cheaters instead of asking Zeni to fix their outdated anti cheat software. That’s the problem with this thread. You’d throw an explosive at the problem and hope it hits the “cheats” while creating collateral damage in the process. I don’t like your idea. It is not well thought out.Edited by Fur_like_snow on August 7, 2020 7:32PM0 -
zaria✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
Cheating does not require any sort of addons it uses code injection, how it work, it inject code in the program to give lots more API functions than intended.relentless_turnip wrote: »
Thanks for your input 👍
I used to think as you did, I would offer similar advice and say to research your claim before replying. Cheating is happening and it can't detected because of free use of addons. My point being is that if you eliminate all unknown code from the client it can't be manipulated. This is where add-ons stop this. Unless detection software was implemented with a massive list of exceptions which puts us in exactly the same place.
SKSE as in Skyrim Script Extender is an very popular one.
Yes SKSE is supported and distributed by Steam as the other option would be that it would only work on cracked games.
An good sale pitch
Yes you can get second hand SKSE for cracked Skyrim but they can well come with an keyboard logger or other fun stuff.
Boots and cheaters uses script injection tools like cheat engine to get stuff like direction of enemies for an bot or to manipulate the system giving you extra powers to cheat unless server traps it, you want more than 10 abilities, you want out of class abilities you have it unless server catches it. No issues giving an DK streaks trough gates unless server catches it.
Last is macros who is simply pre assembled clicks sent from mouse, keyboard or controller. Or animation canceling done easy. Useless in PvP as you get locked into an rotation, can improve dps of an low dps player as in doing the animation canceling for him, did some testing with it back before Morrowind, trying to get an benchmark for templar DPS, I ended up making her an pure healer
On the other hand mods give lots of other info like your dps and % of group dps who is nice like what is wrong with my setup,
I'm wearing PvP gear and an overland bar in an vet dungeon. Lets run dressing room one more time.
It give lots of helpful stuff like inventory insight, master merchant and lazy crafter.
You idea will cost far more players than the discussed destruction of AOE.
Now having the servers look for weird stuff on the other hand would be very smart. I would even turn some of the locks into honey traps.
Let an DK streak trough an keep gate, after an couple of seconds just crash his game. On the second time, let him streak, close the game, ban him and send an email asking for an explanation and unless he had an good one for how he could use an sorcerer skills and why it ignored the gate he has to pay say $100 to unlock the account again.
Amount would double each time.
Note that you can analyze this during night then few are playing.
Or just add new ESO patches looking for popular script inception tools trying to target ESO.
if found then well $100 or restart, an new revenue stream who only hurt cheaters.Grinding just make you go in circles.
Asking ZoS for nerfs is as stupid as asking for close air support from the death star.0 -
Wuerstal✭✭✭Tbh because of addon we'll never get these feature in game.
If their were no addon, people will have made many many thread about these QoL and ZoS would have implement it already.
Why should they wast time if some random people do thius work freely ?
And then, console player are...
But... but... my last sentence was:
Do you guys remember when the guildstore had no search feature what so ever? You needed an Addon for that.
They pretty much inplemented the 'awesome guild store' addon into the game. Why not with a lot of other addon?! Makes no sense. Especially for console players as they don't have the option of addons.0 -
Arunei✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭
If ZOS regretted it they'd remove them, simple as that. A lot of people would probably stop playing because ZOS refuses to implement basic functionality that a lot of addons provide, and indeed are leaving it up to the addon developers to fill in those missing gaps for them, but I don't think it'd be enough people leaving that the game would never recover, especially given the steady influx of new players.I can also almost 100% guarantee ZOS regrets ever allowing any kind of add-ons in the game. I can see why they won't remove them, all these comfy minion on-clickers would make such a deal out of it, that the game would never recover.
Doubt it will ever come for consoles, not "nextgen" either, because I know Microsoft are very reluctant to having these possibilities in the game. They are cautious about letting "just about anyone" dabble with the contents on consoles, probably rightfully so.
I doubt there are enough people complaining about addons in general for ZOS to regret allowing them, and I doubt enough addons are causing so much headache that they regret it, too. If it was as bad a problem as you make it out to be we wouldn't have addons right now. Most of them aren't a problem, but the few that are always get touted as the reason why "addons bad". That, or people try to claim those who use addons are lazy, without any regard for an individual's circumstance and why they might actually use those addons.Character List [RP and PvE]:SpoilerStands-Against-Death: Argonian Magplar Healer - Crafter
Krisiel: Redguard Stamsorc DPS - Literally crazy Werewolf, no like legit insane. She nuts
Kiju Veran: Khajiit Stamblade DPS - Ex-Fighters Guild Suthay who likes to punch things, nicknamed Tinykat
Niralae Elsinal: Altmer Stamsorc DPS - Young Altmer with way too much Magicka
Sarah Lacroix: Breton Magsorc DPS - Fledgling Vampire who drinks too much water
Slondor: Nord Tankblade - TESified verson of Slenderman
Marius Vastino: Imperial <insert role here> - Sarah's apathetic sire who likes to monologue
Delthor Rellenar: Dunmer Magknight DPS - Sarah's ex who's a certified psychopath
Lirawyn Calatare: Altmer Magplar Healer - Traveling performer and bard who's 101% vanilla bean
Gondryn Beldeau: Breton Tankplar - Sarah's Mages Guild mentor and certified badass old person
Gwendolyn Jenelle: Breton Magplar Healer - Friendly healer with a coffee addiction
Soliril Larethian- Altmer Magblade DPS - Blind alchemist who uses animals to see and brews plagues in his spare time
Tevril Rallenar: Dunmer Stamcro DPS - Delthor's "special" younger brother who raises small animals as friends
Celeroth Calatare: Bosmer <insert role here> - Shapeshifting Bosmer with enough sass to fill Valenwood
PC - NA - EP - CP1000+
Avid RPer. Hit me up in-game @Ras_Lei if you're interested in getting together for some arr-pee shenanigans!2 -
BigBragg✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭
Snip
You idea will cost far more players than the discussed destruction of AOE.
Now having the servers look for weird stuff on the other hand would be very smart. I would even turn some of the locks into honey traps.
Let an DK streak trough an keep gate, after an couple of seconds just crash his game. On the second time, let him streak, close the game, ban him and send an email asking for an explanation and unless he had an good one for how he could use an sorcerer skills and why it ignored the gate he has to pay say $100 to unlock the account again.
Amount would double each time.
Note that you can analyze this during night then few are playing.
Or just add new ESO patches looking for popular script inception tools trying to target ESO.
if found then well $100 or restart, an new revenue stream who only hurt cheaters.
Nope. You can't have pay to cheat in a game. It lacks integrity, and would be an unimaginable dung storm.
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Daviiid_ESO✭✭✭Cheating does not require any sort of addons it uses code injection, how it work, it inject code in the program to give lots more API functions than intended.
SKSE as in Skyrim Script Extender is an very popular one.
Yes SKSE is supported and distributed by Steam as the other option would be that it would only work on cracked games.
An good sale pitch Yes you can get second hand SKSE for cracked Skyrim but they can well come with an keyboard logger or other fun stuff.
Boots and cheaters uses script injection tools like cheat engine to get stuff like direction of enemies for an bot or to manipulate the system giving you extra powers to cheat unless server traps it, you want more than 10 abilities, you want out of class abilities you have it unless server catches it. No issues giving an DK streaks trough gates unless server catches it.
Last is macros who is simply pre assembled clicks sent from mouse, keyboard or controller. Or animation canceling done easy. Useless in PvP as you get locked into an rotation, can improve dps of an low dps player as in doing the animation canceling for him, did some testing with it back before Morrowind, trying to get an benchmark for templar DPS, I ended up making her an pure healer
On the other hand mods give lots of other info like your dps and % of group dps who is nice like what is wrong with my setup,
I'm wearing PvP gear and an overland bar in an vet dungeon. Lets run dressing room one more time.
It give lots of helpful stuff like inventory insight, master merchant and lazy crafter.
You idea will cost far more players than the discussed destruction of AOE.
Now having the servers look for weird stuff on the other hand would be very smart. I would even turn some of the locks into honey traps.
Let an DK streak trough an keep gate, after an couple of seconds just crash his game. On the second time, let him streak, close the game, ban him and send an email asking for an explanation and unless he had an good one for how he could use an sorcerer skills and why it ignored the gate he has to pay say $100 to unlock the account again.
Amount would double each time.
Note that you can analyze this during night then few are playing.
Or just add new ESO patches looking for popular script inception tools trying to target ESO.
if found then well $100 or restart, an new revenue stream who only hurt cheaters.
what1 -
Pinja✭✭✭✭Really OP is just asking if there's anyway to make a trusted client so that the game can start running smooth, and there totally is. People scream impossible here or there, but there's a way to secure the client on standard PCs and Macs. Pretty much you'd need to buy or make a jail broken computer in order to overcome my proposals. And I'll find a way to patch that too.0 -
Daviiid_ESO✭✭✭Addons and hacks work on completely different terms and in completely different ways. Some MMO's decided to have a client side anti-cheat, the ESO team decided to put everything on the server instead, creating a lot of latency and lag. Addons are completely unrelated to the issue.Edited by Daviiid_ESO on August 8, 2020 4:20AM0
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idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭relentless_turnip wrote: »
I don't believe add-ons are cheats and have never stated so, I also use them.
Then why do you suggest getting rid of them in the name of trying to stop cheating?
If we did not have add-ons the CE issue would have still occurred. Moving more from the server to the client, as it was before, would invite more cheating regardless of having add-ons or not.
That is the simple fact of the situation.0 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
Tbh because of addon we'll never get these feature in game.
If their were no addon, people will have made many many thread about these QoL and ZoS would have implement it already.
Why should they wast time if some random people do thius work freely ?
And then, console player are...
@Aznarb
Quite the opposite. It is because Zos chose to abandon a full MMORPG style UI that they had developed in early testing that we have add-ons. Not the other way around. Zos chose to change to the minimalist UI and have players create these functions instead of them. Many of which we would likely not have had regardless.
So it is not that Zos chooses to not waste time because players create add-ons but that players create add-ons because Zos chooses not to spend time on creating and maintaining a UI. This is the simple factual history of the situation and yes, the chicken came before the egg in this case.
The fact that 2/3rds of the servers (console) do not have access to the add-ons and Zos has added such little functionality to the base UI demonstrates that merely asking for them in the forums does not bring them about. More importantly, Zos has done a poor job in what they have added to the UI. The buff/debuff tracker Zos added to the base game a couple of years ago looks pathetic next to what players have created.4 -
Stahlor✭✭✭✭✭PizzaCat82 wrote: »This game would be unplayable without the addons.
I know, I play on Console.
You mean - without the addons, you have to be a much better player to reach the same level...4 -
Raudgrani✭✭✭✭✭
✭If ZOS regretted it they'd remove them, simple as that. A lot of people would probably stop playing because ZOS refuses to implement basic functionality that a lot of addons provide, and indeed are leaving it up to the addon developers to fill in those missing gaps for them, but I don't think it'd be enough people leaving that the game would never recover, especially given the steady influx of new players.
I doubt there are enough people complaining about addons in general for ZOS to regret allowing them, and I doubt enough addons are causing so much headache that they regret it, too. If it was as bad a problem as you make it out to be we wouldn't have addons right now. Most of them aren't a problem, but the few that are always get touted as the reason why "addons bad". That, or people try to claim those who use addons are lazy, without any regard for an individual's circumstance and why they might actually use those addons.
They do a lot of things they regret - and keep changing things because of this, all the time. Adding Thrassian Stranglers as a set - just as an example. As is the case with another set, Sload's Semblance; especially Thrassian Strangler's are being made like an entirely new set, because they realize it was a very bad idea.
Those things they can "tweak", so it's all safe. But as for add-ons, they know the squeaky kind of people that play games like these. IF they removed add-ons altogether, people would like burst an artery and die. I mean, WHAT IF you had to actually use in-game functions like reading text, checking maps, put markers on the map and such? What if you had to go around the larger trade merchant areas and actually CHECK prices - and so on?
It would be like banning alcohol again, or even banning electricity for whatever reason. It's such an integral part of people's "lives" in this game, that there's no return. So YES; of course they would think twice and likely NOT allow add-ons if we could turn back time, but now they were allowed - and they will have to live with it.
I didn't even get started on PC, because everyone was all about "You need this add-on, and this, and this, and this!" and it just felt like I couldn't take it. No way.0 -
AgaTheGreat✭✭✭✭✭
✭Quality of life add-ons like the one that puts countdowns on your buffs and eso logs should be implemented into the base game so every platform benefits. Unfortunately because PC is a much bigger platform, ZoS never prioritises console performance and we're left with this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1sru066C3wI
I don't care much about your addons, that said, some of them are too good not to be in the game natively. Not talking about that raid notified because it's just lol.
PS4 EU Aga_The_Grey - retired | PC EU AgaTheGreat0 -
relentless_turnip✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭
Then why do you suggest getting rid of them in the name of trying to stop cheating?
If we did not have add-ons the CE issue would have still occurred. Moving more from the server to the client, as it was before, would invite more cheating regardless of having add-ons or not.
That is the simple fact of the situation.
I often read what you have to say on here and have always admired your ability to read things properly and give an intelligent reply.
You must have read why I believe this would help and you know I don't say anything that indicates I believe add-ons themselves are cheating. I merely have stated numerous times why I believe their removal may bring more clarity to the detection of third party input.
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relentless_turnip✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Really OP is just asking if there's anyway to make a trusted client so that the game can start running smooth, and there totally is. People scream impossible here or there, but there's a way to secure the client on standard PCs and Macs. Pretty much you'd need to buy or make a jail broken computer in order to overcome my proposals. And I'll find a way to patch that too.
Exactly what I am proposing, thank you for trying to understand.0 -
relentless_turnip✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭PizzaCat82 wrote: »This game would be unplayable without the addons.
I know, I play on Console.
😂😂1 -
Elsonso✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Really OP is just asking if there's anyway to make a trusted client so that the game can start running smooth, and there totally is. People scream impossible here or there, but there's a way to secure the client on standard PCs and Macs. Pretty much you'd need to buy or make a jail broken computer in order to overcome my proposals. And I'll find a way to patch that too.
Nothing on the client can be trusted absolutely. This is especially true of PC clients, since the bar is much lower. Only a remote server can tell if a client has been compromised.
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relentless_turnip✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭InvitationNotFound wrote: »
[snip]
a) Addons can't be used to cheat. It isn't possible to fly around and spam some rockets and other weird things.
ZOS defines the API and what is allowed. Furthermore, addons aren't really third party software. Software usually can just run. Addons can't.
b) Third party software (not Addons) are already forbidden to my knowledge. See the ToS.
c) The basics of network code is, that you never should trust client data as a server. This applies to everything. Your E-Banking shouldn't trust user input as it is always possible to send whatever you want. This can't be prevented. Same applies to ESO. Moving things to the client just makes writing cheats easier.
[snip]
It has you that have entirely missed the point of this thread.
I have never stated at all that i believe add-ons are cheating or used to cheat.
I like that you quoted the thread where i stated my thoughts and my reasons believing them.
As I have stated several times over the course of this thread I believe cheating would be easier to detect in the absense of all files not sourced from the developer.
Next time you should take your own advice before broadcasting your opinion and actually read what you are commenting on a subject you haven't taken the time to comprehend.
Edited by ZOS_ConnorG on August 8, 2020 6:29PM2 -
kringled_1✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Really OP is just asking if there's anyway to make a trusted client so that the game can start running smooth, and there totally is. People scream impossible here or there, but there's a way to secure the client on standard PCs and Macs. Pretty much you'd need to buy or make a jail broken computer in order to overcome my proposals. And I'll find a way to patch that too.relentless_turnip wrote: »
As I have stated several times over the course of this thread I believe cheating would be easier to detect in the absense of all files not sourced from the developer.
I see the position you are taken, but I don't believe it is based on an accurate assumption.
I don't think actual add-ons trigger any confusion or problems with detection of cheat software, except in forum discussions like this one.
Pinja's point is related, but I think also misses key issues.
I don't believe that cheats have to be installed in the game directory, and as long as users have the ability to install and run other software with administrator privileges, you cannot guarantee that the client is completely trusted. If you want console level security, you need console level control - i.e. users cannot install untrusted software (anywhere on the machine), users cannot run software with administrator privileges outside of well defined system utilities, etc. This is not achievable within the PC gaming environment. Pinja's discussion of jailbreaking points to a misunderstanding; PCs and Macs (as opposed to iOS devices) are in essence by default jailbroken - user can install and execute code from sources of their own choosing.
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daemonios✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭relentless_turnip wrote: » It has you that have entirely missed the point of this thread.
I have never stated at all that i believe add-ons are cheating or used to cheat.
I like that you quoted the thread where i stated my thoughts and my reasons believing them.
As I have stated several times over the course of this thread I believe cheating would be easier to detect in the absense of all files not sourced from the developer.
Next time you should take your own advice before broadcasting your opinion and actually read what you are commenting on a subject you haven't taken the time to comprehend.
Several people, myself included, have already stated why we believe removing add-ons would have zero effect on cheating or cheating detection. Executables are already digitally signed to prevent tampering, and cheats don't need to touch the game files at all.
You've acknowledged these points, but keep posting as if nobody had said anything, without offering any contribution on why you're unconvinced. That is not a discussion, it's merely you stating your opinion multiple times.
Nothing on the client can be trusted absolutely. This is especially true of PC clients, since the bar is much lower. Only a remote server can tell if a client has been compromised.
I think there are ways to achieve this. Windows marketplace programs are sandboxed and run as protected processes. I think one of the perks of this way of doing things is that it prevents other programs from messing with the game's process and memory, thus preventing cheat engine-like manipulation of game values.Edited by ZOS_ConnorG on August 8, 2020 6:35PM0 -
Pevey✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭relentless_turnip wrote: »
Exactly what I am proposing, thank you for trying to understand.
Every computer is or should be a jailbroken computer. If you are proposing something else, you are proposing malware. I’m sure ZOS has looked at this and decided the number of players (like me) who refuse to install a rootkit on their PC on philosophical grounds for any reason, including their favorite game, is greater than the number of people turned off by the cheating. Most players don’t even PVP anyway.
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Elsonso✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
I think there are ways to achieve this. Windows marketplace programs are sandboxed and run as protected processes. I think one of the perks of this way of doing things is that it prevents other programs from messing with the game's process and memory, thus preventing cheat engine-like manipulation of game values.
I really don't want to get into details, so this is the last of it from me. ZOS cannot secure ESO against a determined local user. They have unlimited access to the hardware and software. All ZOS can do is raise the bar to the point that it is very hard to bypass the anti-cheat security, then hope that the people who do break it don't make it trivial to bypass by some process that anyone can follow.0
