Remove all third party software

relentless_turnip

I appreciate this will be a very unpopular opinion, but I would really love ZOS to remove all third party software.

I would like to preface this by saying I love my add-ons and I don't think the ability to use them should be removed until ZOS adopts some of the most popular ones.
Add-ons like: action duration reminder,
Srendaar, dressing room, easy daily writ etc...

It has become more apparent to me overtime any reason to keep them is greatly outweighed by reasons to not have them.

I have always been one of those people who didn't think cheating was a thing or albeit such a rare thing that I never witnessed it. I am a pretty reasonable PvP player and it has always been my opinion that when I was beaten, I was beaten by a better player. I'm certain that a lot of the time that is still true. But after cheats for sale and seeing said cheats showcased on YouTube I now see the depth of the problem. I have also been to the website where they are sold and seen the insane amount of players who have purchased them. I have linked this site to zos btw...

On top of this it has been frequently said(I can't confirm this) that many functions and calculations were moved server side to eliminate manipulation of accessible game mechanics. If this is true, server strain could be greatly reduced by moving this all back to the client and making any detection of third party software an immediately bannable offence. This means our clients would process all the calculations and send the results to the server. It also means that currently accessible parts of the client could be completely inaccessible and encoded. With ESO implementing detection software that checks there is nothing added to the client that's shouldn't be there.

I appreciate this is a controversial subject, but I would like to hear a discussion around it regardless. Please try to keep it civil 👍

richo262

Better yet, officially support addons with an addon store in game. Block third party applications and addons.

This would allow for Stadia users, and possibly even consoles at some point getting addons.

Also favorite addons, and cloud sync certain (ie, not MM data lists generated after logging in, that would be pointless to sync) user settings for addons. Would make reinstalling the game as is a breeze.

Edit: Furthermore, could even have an option to donate Crowns / Gold to your favorite addon author. All in game, within the eco system.

If ZOS only blocks what constitute cheating addons, this could be good. If ZOS blocks addons that make inventory management bearable to try to get more subs, then it would be terrible. ZOS still needs to make it possible to sell 6mo ESO+ subs / Chapter tokens, then most inventory management addons will end up getting less usage.

Xebov

[snip]

Addons and cheating have nothing in common. The Addon API allows for a limited set of instructions to me made and they are very unlikely to be usable for cheating in the first place. Cheats itself dont require any API. You cna either exploit bugs or you can access the Memory the game is in. Manipulating Memory is what gets you very far there. The reason why calculations are on the server is to prevent manipulation, as soon as the client is allowed to do them they can be manipulated and you have no chance at all to prevent this. You can just go with extra software to make this harder, but thats all.

[snip]

[Edited to remove Baiting]

Nairinhe

So, we'll just go back to "hey, this boss died faster this time" type of dps check and filleting fish one by one, and cheaters will still bypass whatever detection stuff ZOS will set up?

relentless_turnip

Xebov wrote: »

You have very little idea what you are talking about.

Addons and cheating have nothing in common. The Addon API allows for a limited set of instructions to me made and they are very unlikely to be usable for cheating in the first place. Cheats itself dont require any API. You cna either exploit bugs or you can access the Memory the game is in. Manipulating Memory is what gets you very far there. The reason why calculations are on the server is to prevent manipulation, as soon as the client is allowed to do them they can be manipulated and you have no chance at all to prevent this. You can just go with extra software to make this harder, but thats all.

So please do everyone a favor and get some general understanding about how PCs, Addons and cheats work first before making Posts like these that obviously show that you have no idea what you are talking about.

Thanks for your input 👍

I used to think as you did, I would offer similar advice and say to research your claim before replying. Cheating is happening and it can't detected because of free use of addons. My point being is that if you eliminate all unknown code from the client it can't be manipulated. This is where add-ons stop this. Unless detection software was implemented with a massive list of exceptions which puts us in exactly the same place.

relentless_turnip

Nairinhe wrote: »

So, we'll just go back to "hey, this boss died faster this time" type of dps check and filleting fish one by one, and cheaters will still bypass whatever detection stuff ZOS will set up?

It works on console and yes with add-ons eliminated from equation it makes much easier for them to decide what should be there and what shouldn't.

mairwen85

Unfortunately, more client side responsibility would result in more client side manipulation. The reason for anti-cheat systems on the server side is that it gives ZOS more control over incoming data, in theory. The cheat tools of course are living client side and still injecting data into the upstream that is going undetected by whatever controls they have in place server side. If anything, combating that means more controls and checks on the server. It seems whatever they have there is outdated to the point that cheaters have been able to code around it, thus an upgrade or rework of the anti-cheat technology will be in order.

At the same time, as others have said, add-ons are not related to cheats. Add-ons use hooks into the client which are provided as public call backs by ZOS, anything that pulls from the server is going via publicly consumable end-points which are likewise provided explicitly by ZOS and thus managed and controlled. When said endpoints or call-backs are problematic, ZOS closes them or changes how they work.

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Nairinhe wrote: »

So, we'll just go back to "hey, this boss died faster this time" type of dps check and filleting fish one by one, and cheaters will still bypass whatever detection stuff ZOS will set up?

It works on console and yes with add-ons eliminated from equation it makes much easier for them to decide what should be there and what shouldn't.

They already know what should be there and shouldn't as they decide which functions to make public/private and which endpoints are accessible on the API. The problem is that their anti-cheat tech is outdated and therefore exploitable with enough research and fore-knowledge.

richo262

Xebov wrote: »

You have very little idea what you are talking about.

Addons and cheating have nothing in common. The Addon API allows for a limited set of instructions to me made and they are very unlikely to be usable for cheating in the first place. Cheats itself dont require any API. You cna either exploit bugs or you can access the Memory the game is in. Manipulating Memory is what gets you very far there. The reason why calculations are on the server is to prevent manipulation, as soon as the client is allowed to do them they can be manipulated and you have no chance at all to prevent this. You can just go with extra software to make this harder, but thats all.

So please do everyone a favor and get some general understanding about how PCs, Addons and cheats work first before making Posts like these that obviously show that you have no idea what you are talking about.

There are addons that allow for cheating. In PVE there are addons that warn you when to block/dodge etc. There are some that detect when another player is winding up a shot and gives the player forewarning to roll dodge. The PVE stuff is fine, the PVP stuff is not. You are correct in the trainer cheats that allow for players to fly through the air, you incorrect in claiming that it is impossible for an addon to grant the player an unfair advantage that constitutes cheating.

Nairinhe wrote: »

So, we'll just go back to "hey, this boss died faster this time" type of dps check and filleting fish one by one, and cheaters will still bypass whatever detection stuff ZOS will set up?

I'd never want to see ESO without addons. I'd only be pro doing something like this if ZOS provided an alternative like an in game addon store, with a clear mandate to only block addons that facilitate cheating.

doomette

Nairinhe wrote: »

So, we'll just go back to "hey, this boss died faster this time" type of dps check and filleting fish one by one, and cheaters will still bypass whatever detection stuff ZOS will set up?

Wait, hold up, y’all can fillet more than one fish at a time? Usually I’m very much against the silly bickering between the platforms but this makes me want to bring out my pitchforks and torches
Kidding. Mostly.

mairwen85

richo262 wrote: »

There are addons that allow for cheating. In PVE there are addons that warn you when to block/dodge etc. There are some that detect when another player is winding up a shot and gives the player forewarning to roll dodge. The PVE stuff is fine, the PVP stuff is not. You are correct in the trainer cheats that allow for players to fly through the air, you incorrect in claiming that it is impossible for an addon to grant the player an unfair advantage that constitutes cheating.

Would you mind linking to these cheat addons (PvP specifically)? If you're taking about raid notifier or Code's Combat Alerts, I think you're over exaggerating what they actually do. Yes they give a little popup with a timer for a mechanic to kick in, but you still have to do it, and while I agree it adds a bit of ease to play, the information it's giving isn't hidden or secret, it's just presented in a more useful way.

Dark_Lord_Kuro

richo262 wrote: »

Xebov wrote: »

You have very little idea what you are talking about.

Addons and cheating have nothing in common. The Addon API allows for a limited set of instructions to me made and they are very unlikely to be usable for cheating in the first place. Cheats itself dont require any API. You cna either exploit bugs or you can access the Memory the game is in. Manipulating Memory is what gets you very far there. The reason why calculations are on the server is to prevent manipulation, as soon as the client is allowed to do them they can be manipulated and you have no chance at all to prevent this. You can just go with extra software to make this harder, but thats all.

So please do everyone a favor and get some general understanding about how PCs, Addons and cheats work first before making Posts like these that obviously show that you have no idea what you are talking about.

There are addons that allow for cheating. In PVE there are addons that warn you when to block/dodge etc. There are some that detect when another player is winding up a shot and gives the player forewarning to roll dodge. The PVE stuff is fine, the PVP stuff is not. You are correct in the trainer cheats that allow for players to fly through the air, you incorrect in claiming that it is impossible for an addon to grant the player an unfair advantage that constitutes cheating.

Nairinhe wrote: »

So, we'll just go back to "hey, this boss died faster this time" type of dps check and filleting fish one by one, and cheaters will still bypass whatever detection stuff ZOS will set up?

I'd never want to see ESO without addons. I'd only be pro doing something like this if ZOS provided an alternative like an in game addon store, with a clear mandate to only block addons that facilitate cheating.

If every addon need to pass by zos for approuval and then downloaded from eso, it would lkely put mod on console because zos could in turn tweak some of them and submit them to sony/microsoft
Think like skyrim mod on ps4

Mancombe_Nosehair

Or we could just get rid of PvP altogether, seeing as such a small percentage of the player base play it anyway, and then we can enjoy all the add-ons we like.

Let's be honest, PvP hasn't been fit for purpose for a long time, and changes for PvP balancing issues cause all sorts of problems for pve. It's like using a sledge hammer to crack a nut.

I say let PvP die. There's only so many times you can smash yourself in the face with a brick. If add-ons are banned, I, like a lot of other pc players, will be off in a flash, and that percentage of players will be far higher than the loss of PvP players.

The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.

Discuss.

UntilValhalla13

Are you even REALLY playing eso the way it was intended, if you're using add-ons anyways? XD

Maybe then, zos would realize how lacking the base game is, in terms of quality of life improvements, since EVERYTHING uses add-ons as a given.

Raudgrani

Started playing on Xbox, then bought it for PC. I didn't much more than started on PC, before I realized I would have to keep updated on all sorts of plugins and stuff, to be "competative" - so I stopped right there. As simple as that.

relentless_turnip

Dark_Lord_Kuro wrote: »

richo262 wrote: »

Xebov wrote: »

You have very little idea what you are talking about.

Addons and cheating have nothing in common. The Addon API allows for a limited set of instructions to me made and they are very unlikely to be usable for cheating in the first place. Cheats itself dont require any API. You cna either exploit bugs or you can access the Memory the game is in. Manipulating Memory is what gets you very far there. The reason why calculations are on the server is to prevent manipulation, as soon as the client is allowed to do them they can be manipulated and you have no chance at all to prevent this. You can just go with extra software to make this harder, but thats all.

So please do everyone a favor and get some general understanding about how PCs, Addons and cheats work first before making Posts like these that obviously show that you have no idea what you are talking about.

There are addons that allow for cheating. In PVE there are addons that warn you when to block/dodge etc. There are some that detect when another player is winding up a shot and gives the player forewarning to roll dodge. The PVE stuff is fine, the PVP stuff is not. You are correct in the trainer cheats that allow for players to fly through the air, you incorrect in claiming that it is impossible for an addon to grant the player an unfair advantage that constitutes cheating.

Nairinhe wrote: »

So, we'll just go back to "hey, this boss died faster this time" type of dps check and filleting fish one by one, and cheaters will still bypass whatever detection stuff ZOS will set up?

I'd never want to see ESO without addons. I'd only be pro doing something like this if ZOS provided an alternative like an in game addon store, with a clear mandate to only block addons that facilitate cheating.

If every addon need to pass by zos for approuval and then downloaded from eso, it would lkely put mod on console because zos could in turn tweak some of them and submit them to sony/microsoft
Think like skyrim mod on ps4

I suppose the argument there is that it doesn't matter if you cheat in skyrim. If ZOS were to manage all add-ons than this is of course would be different.

doomette

Mancombe_Nosehair wrote: »

Discuss.

I think it’s a terribly selfish idea and I think you underestimate the number of people who PVP. I’m not talking just the hardcore, spend 99% of their gameplay laying waste to other player, but also those who enjoy both PVP and PVE and the PVP “weekend warriors”. I also think it’s a phenomenally bad idea that would alienate a good chunk of players, so not the best business decision ever.

relentless_turnip

Raudgrani wrote: »

Started playing on Xbox, then bought it for PC. I didn't much more than started on PC, before I realized I would have to keep updated on all sorts of plugins and stuff, to be "competative" - so I stopped right there. As simple as that.

Minion will do that for you
Also there is a lot of convenience and not much competitive edge.

TwinLamps

Even better:
Pay to people who made these popular addons and integrate them into ESO.
Everybody wins

bearbelly

doomette wrote: »

Wait, hold up, y’all can fillet more than one fish at a time?

No. You cannot.
All that add-on does is remove the click you have to make between fish, essentially automating the process.
It still fillets the fish one at a time.
If you have a sizeable stack, you're still gonna be standing there awhile, watching your character slowly fillet one fish at a time.

See, this is why this discussion always derails -- people (not you) make baseless, incorrect claims about what many add-ons can do, and all it does is inflame the ire of people who don't have access to add-ons, and that mob comes at those of us who use them, and we get labeled as cheaters.

relentless_turnip

TwinLamps wrote: »

Even better:
Pay to people who made these popular addons and integrate them into ESO.
Everybody wins

Totally agree!

doomette

bearbelly wrote: »

doomette wrote: »

Wait, hold up, y’all can fillet more than one fish at a time?

No. You cannot.
All that add-on does is remove the click you have to make between fish, essentially automating the process.
It still fillets the fish one at a time.
If you have a sizeable stack, you're still gonna be standing there awhile, watching your character slowly fillet one fish at a time.

See, this is why this discussion always derails -- people (not you) make baseless, incorrect claims about what many add-ons can do, and all it does is inflame the ire of people who don't have access to add-ons, and that mob comes at those of us who use them, and we get labeled as cheaters.

Ah. Still quite jealous, as filleting fish is the wooooooorst. I keep them after doing a new zones angler achievement to fillet while I’m waiting for something to spawn, a queue to pop, or something like that, but man, still sucks to much.

Mancombe_Nosehair

doomette wrote: »

Mancombe_Nosehair wrote: »

Discuss.

I think it’s a terribly selfish idea and I think you underestimate the number of people who PVP. I’m not talking just the hardcore, spend 99% of their gameplay laying waste to other player, but also those who enjoy both PVP and PVE and the PVP “weekend warriors”. I also think it’s a phenomenally bad idea that would alienate a good chunk of players, so not the best business decision ever.

I was actually being satirical, because, quite frankly, it is no less selfish than banning add-ons just because a few sore losers at PvP are blaming add-ons as opposed to their own lack of PvP skills.

relentless_turnip

bearbelly wrote: »

doomette wrote: »

Wait, hold up, y’all can fillet more than one fish at a time?

No. You cannot.
All that add-on does is remove the click you have to make between fish, essentially automating the process.
It still fillets the fish one at a time.
If you have a sizeable stack, you're still gonna be standing there awhile, watching your character slowly fillet one fish at a time.

See, this is why this discussion always derails -- people (not you) make baseless, incorrect claims about what many add-ons can do, and all it does is inflame the ire of people who don't have access to add-ons, and that mob comes at those of us who use them, and we get labeled as cheaters.

Yes, but I raised this issue with a purpose. I stated how much I enjoy my own add-ons and I don't think add-ons offer any advantage beyond convenience or aesthetics. It is the grey area of allowing some third party software and not others that makes Zenimax's job much harder.

doomette

Mancombe_Nosehair wrote: »

doomette wrote: »

Mancombe_Nosehair wrote: »

Discuss.

I think it’s a terribly selfish idea and I think you underestimate the number of people who PVP. I’m not talking just the hardcore, spend 99% of their gameplay laying waste to other player, but also those who enjoy both PVP and PVE and the PVP “weekend warriors”. I also think it’s a phenomenally bad idea that would alienate a good chunk of players, so not the best business decision ever.

I was actually being satirical, because, quite frankly, it is no less selfish than banning add-ons just because a few sore losers at PvP are blaming add-ons as opposed to their own lack of PvP skills.

Oh oops 😳
Though I’ve seen 100% earnest posts suggesting what you did, so this forum has definitely Poe’s Law-ed itself.

bearbelly

doomette wrote: »

bearbelly wrote: »

doomette wrote: »

Wait, hold up, y’all can fillet more than one fish at a time?

No. You cannot.
All that add-on does is remove the click you have to make between fish, essentially automating the process.
It still fillets the fish one at a time.
If you have a sizeable stack, you're still gonna be standing there awhile, watching your character slowly fillet one fish at a time.

See, this is why this discussion always derails -- people (not you) make baseless, incorrect claims about what many add-ons can do, and all it does is inflame the ire of people who don't have access to add-ons, and that mob comes at those of us who use them, and we get labeled as cheaters.

Ah. Still quite jealous, as filleting fish is the wooooooorst. I keep them after doing a new zones angler achievement to fillet while I’m waiting for something to spawn, a queue to pop, or something like that, but man, still sucks to much.

Filleting fish still majorly sucks even with the add-on.
It does automate the process, but it doesn't make it go much faster. It's still painfully s l o w , and mind-numbing.
Nothing to be jealous of, really.

Xebov

Xebov wrote: »

Cheating is happening and it can't detected because of free use of addons.

No its not. Addons dont wildly inject random code into the game. They use a defined API from ZOS to access and modify game resources. What can be accessed is defined by ZOS. You cant control what exactly they are doing with the data, but inside the game everything is very well controlable. So i repeat myself, read up how these things work because what you are discribing is code injection and thats not happening here.

richo262 wrote: »

There are addons that allow for cheating. In PVE there are addons that warn you when to block/dodge etc. There are some that detect when another player is winding up a shot and gives the player forewarning to roll dodge.

Addons can only consume data provided via the Addon API and they show something to the player. This has nothing todo with cheating. ZOS allows this data to be read by addons and ZOS allows Addons to show things to the player. Whats happening there is intenionally, which means it is not cheating as ZOS explicitely allows it. If you like this or not is a different story, but it doesnt turn it into cheating.

Xebov

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Cheating is happening and it can't detected because of free use of addons.

No its not. Addons dont wildly inject random code into the game. They use a defined API from ZOS to access and modify game resources. What can be accessed is defined by ZOS. You cant control what exactly they are doing with the data, but inside the game everything is very well controlable. So i repeat myself, read up how these things work because what you are discribing is code injection and thats not happening here.

richo262 wrote: »

There are addons that allow for cheating. In PVE there are addons that warn you when to block/dodge etc. There are some that detect when another player is winding up a shot and gives the player forewarning to roll dodge.

Addons can only consume data provided via the Addon API and they show something to the player. This has nothing todo with cheating. ZOS allows this data to be read by addons and ZOS allows Addons to show things to the player. Whats happening there is intenionally, which means it is not cheating as ZOS explicitely allows it. If you like this or not is a different story, but it doesnt turn it into cheating.


EDIT:We realy need an edit button...

relentless_turnip

Env_t wrote: »

[Quoted post was removed]

[snip]

Third party software is reference to anything not made by Zenimax, the only thing limited is what add-on creators have access to. As I have explained many times, the issue is that it blurs the line between what should be on the client and what shouldn't be, making their job a lot harder.

[Edited to remove Baiting]

Nairinhe

doomette wrote: »

Nairinhe wrote: »

So, we'll just go back to "hey, this boss died faster this time" type of dps check and filleting fish one by one, and cheaters will still bypass whatever detection stuff ZOS will set up?

Wait, hold up, y’all can fillet more than one fish at a time? Usually I’m very much against the silly bickering between the platforms but this makes me want to bring out my pitchforks and torches
Kidding. Mostly.

Yep. If not for add-ons, I'd just sell all that fish I got while going for Master Angler

bearbelly

Xebov wrote: »

EDIT:We realy need an edit button...

We have one. But you have to refresh the page after posting in order for it to show up.
After you've refreshed the page, when you mouse-over your post, a gear icon shows up in the upper-right corner, just to the left of the post number and time-stamp.
Click that gear, and an 'Edit' option drops down, then you click on 'Edit.'

Xebov

relentless_turnip wrote: »

[Quoted post was removed]

Well you tell me you have random unknown code and i told you that data transfer between client and addons is limited and is controlled by ZOS and the game. You cant change the game this way in ways the Devs dont allow. You dismiss this and wildly speculate around something you dont understand. There is not much to say. So have fun with your crusade i guess.