Remove all third party software

Xebov

bearbelly wrote: »

Xebov wrote: »

EDIT:We realy need an edit button...

We have one. But you have to refresh the page after posting in order for it to show up.

Thank you, thats an odd way of placing it.

relentless_turnip

Xebov wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

[Quoted post was removed]

Well you tell me you have random unknown code and i told you that data transfer between client and addons is limited and is controlled by ZOS and the game. You cant change the game this way in ways the Devs dont allow. You dismiss this and wildly speculate around something you dont understand. There is not much to say. So have fun with your crusade i guess.

I am stating as I have twice already the issue is not the add-ons, but the fact that some third party software is allowed and some is not. By removing all third party software the dev's job gets a lot easier... I am not claiming add-ons are cheating I have said I enjoy them myself. It is not the allowance of access to some of the code, it is the allowance of any access at all that makes the detection of manipulation difficult. You are not addressing this, you are just accusing me of ignorance essentially.

Xebov

relentless_turnip wrote: »

I am stating as I have twice already the issue is not the add-ons, but the fact that some third party software is allowed and some is not.

Addons barely count as 3D Party software ebcause tehy cant work on their own. What they can do depends on ZOS. 3rd party software that can inject code or data in the game without control is already not allowed.

relentless_turnip wrote: »

it is the allowance of any access at all that makes the detection of manipulation difficult

No its not and thats the thing. All things mofied by addons go through the same API pipeline, which means that the changes are absolutely transparent. There is no random data showing up somewhere inbetween. Thats also the reason why i said you have no idea what you talking about because you obsiously lack the background to know how these APIs and Software in general works internally.

richo262

mairwen85 wrote: »

richo262 wrote: »

There are addons that allow for cheating. In PVE there are addons that warn you when to block/dodge etc. There are some that detect when another player is winding up a shot and gives the player forewarning to roll dodge. The PVE stuff is fine, the PVP stuff is not. You are correct in the trainer cheats that allow for players to fly through the air, you incorrect in claiming that it is impossible for an addon to grant the player an unfair advantage that constitutes cheating.

Would you mind linking to these cheat addons (PvP specifically)? If you're taking about raid notifier or Code's Combat Alerts, I think you're over exaggerating what they actually do. Yes they give a little popup with a timer for a mechanic to kick in, but you still have to do it, and while I agree it adds a bit of ease to play, the information it's giving isn't hidden or secret, it's just presented in a more useful way.

I was referring to Code's and Raid Notifier for PVE, but if you read what I said, I stated they are not an issue, and not what I am referring to. There are PVP addons that operate in a similar fashion to Code's and Raid are an issue.

You seem to be defending something that was not once ever considered an issue, the PVP versions of those addons are an issue.

As for the addon conveniently representing information, yes, in PVE, that can be argued, and why IMO they are perfectly fine. In PVP however, it results in people running away, with their back turned, perfectly dodge rolling your attacks like they have eyes in the back of their heads.

Edit:
Here is the PVP version of Codes/Raidnotifer.
https://www.esoui.com/downloads/info1545-MiatsPVPAlerts.html

ZOS has changed their API to neuter some of its functionality, but it is still working.

mairwen85

richo262 wrote: »

mairwen85 wrote: »

richo262 wrote: »

There are addons that allow for cheating. In PVE there are addons that warn you when to block/dodge etc. There are some that detect when another player is winding up a shot and gives the player forewarning to roll dodge. The PVE stuff is fine, the PVP stuff is not. You are correct in the trainer cheats that allow for players to fly through the air, you incorrect in claiming that it is impossible for an addon to grant the player an unfair advantage that constitutes cheating.

Would you mind linking to these cheat addons (PvP specifically)? If you're taking about raid notifier or Code's Combat Alerts, I think you're over exaggerating what they actually do. Yes they give a little popup with a timer for a mechanic to kick in, but you still have to do it, and while I agree it adds a bit of ease to play, the information it's giving isn't hidden or secret, it's just presented in a more useful way.

I was referring to Code's and Raid Notifier for PVE, but if you read what I said, I stated they are not an issue, and not what I am referring to. There are PVP addons that operate in a similar fashion to Code's and Raid are an issue.

You seem to be defending something that was not once ever considered an issue, the PVP versions of those addons are an issue.

As for the addon conveniently representing information, yes, in PVE, that can be argued, and why IMO they are perfectly fine. In PVP however, it results in people running away, with their back turned, perfectly dodge rolling your attacks like they have eyes in the back of their heads.

Not defending, genuinely curious which ones you are referring to specifically.

Xebov

richo262 wrote: »

As for the addon conveniently representing information, yes, in PVE, that can be argued, and why IMO they are perfectly fine. In PVP however, it results in people running away, with their back turned, perfectly dodge rolling your attacks like they have eyes in the back of their heads.

For this you have to colect the addons and have a look on what data they are processing. Then make a suggestion to ZOS that this data is no longer available. Its as simple as that. Addons can only use Data provided via API and ZOS can limit what data can be got.

mairwen85

@richo262, I see you updated your comment with a link to MIat's; that's a well known and problematic add-on that ZOS stealth addressed with changes to the API.

As far as i know from a very limited testing the notifications features don't work, due to changes on ZOS end.

I have no idea if that can be circumvented, nor i have any desire to investigate.

The rest of the features work fine.

For so far it is still useful, reports against it to ZOS is the best route to see any change or resolution.

relentless_turnip

richo262 wrote: »

mairwen85 wrote: »

richo262 wrote: »

There are addons that allow for cheating. In PVE there are addons that warn you when to block/dodge etc. There are some that detect when another player is winding up a shot and gives the player forewarning to roll dodge. The PVE stuff is fine, the PVP stuff is not. You are correct in the trainer cheats that allow for players to fly through the air, you incorrect in claiming that it is impossible for an addon to grant the player an unfair advantage that constitutes cheating.

Would you mind linking to these cheat addons (PvP specifically)? If you're taking about raid notifier or Code's Combat Alerts, I think you're over exaggerating what they actually do. Yes they give a little popup with a timer for a mechanic to kick in, but you still have to do it, and while I agree it adds a bit of ease to play, the information it's giving isn't hidden or secret, it's just presented in a more useful way.

I was referring to Code's and Raid Notifier for PVE, but if you read what I said, I stated they are not an issue, and not what I am referring to. There are PVP addons that operate in a similar fashion to Code's and Raid are an issue.

You seem to be defending something that was not once ever considered an issue, the PVP versions of those addons are an issue.

As for the addon conveniently representing information, yes, in PVE, that can be argued, and why IMO they are perfectly fine. In PVP however, it results in people running away, with their back turned, perfectly dodge rolling your attacks like they have eyes in the back of their heads.

Edit:
Here is the PVP version of Codes/Raidnotifer.
https://www.esoui.com/downloads/info1545-MiatsPVPAlerts.html

ZOS has changed their API to neuter some of its functionality, but it is still working.

One of the cheats advertised on the site I visited, auto dodge rolls for you...

Daemons_Bane

So you seem to think that this causes a few issues in PvP.. That sounds plausible.. But I think that removing all add-ons from a game that is majorly PvE based, just for that, seems a little harsh.. And I know that you said that some can be kept by ZOS, but let's face it.. They would have to keep ALL of them, every single one that has at least 1 download.. because you can't deny player the PvE his mod, just because the PvP player might be a cheater

SeaGtGruff

Mancombe_Nosehair wrote: »

doomette wrote: »

Mancombe_Nosehair wrote: »

Discuss.

I think it’s a terribly selfish idea and I think you underestimate the number of people who PVP. I’m not talking just the hardcore, spend 99% of their gameplay laying waste to other player, but also those who enjoy both PVP and PVE and the PVP “weekend warriors”. I also think it’s a phenomenally bad idea that would alienate a good chunk of players, so not the best business decision ever.

I was actually being satirical, because, quite frankly, it is no less selfish than banning add-ons just because a few sore losers at PvP are blaming add-ons as opposed to their own lack of PvP skills.

So if these add-ons aren't improving players' chances, and it's all just skill, then what's the reason for players having them? If they don't help players win, then it should be okay to ban them. And if you don't want to ban them, then you must think they add some edge. It's like the claim that sets don't matter, it's all player skill and not the sets they're using. But then when ZOS nerfs the sets, players have a cow, thereby affirming that the sets did make a difference. "It's all skill, learn to play." Right...

relentless_turnip

Daemons_Bane wrote: »

So you seem to think that this causes a few issues in PvP.. That sounds plausible.. But I think that removing all add-ons from a game that is majorly PvE based, just for that, seems a little harsh.. And I know that you said that some can be kept by ZOS, but let's face it.. They would have to keep ALL of them, every single one that has at least 1 download.. because you can't deny player the PvE his mod, just because the PvP player might be a cheater

I think you make a totally fair point, others have suggested ZOS officially adopt add-ons and manage them through some sort of store. It does put a lot of work at their feet given each would have to be vetted and updated, perhaps add-on creators could actually be paid to maintain them on said store. There is cheating in PVE as well, one of the video's I saw recently was a guy flying around elden root bombing everyone below. You may have seen it too as it made its rounds on the forums.

kringled_1

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Daemons_Bane wrote: »

So you seem to think that this causes a few issues in PvP.. That sounds plausible.. But I think that removing all add-ons from a game that is majorly PvE based, just for that, seems a little harsh.. And I know that you said that some can be kept by ZOS, but let's face it.. They would have to keep ALL of them, every single one that has at least 1 download.. because you can't deny player the PvE his mod, just because the PvP player might be a cheater

I think you make a totally fair point, others have suggested ZOS officially adopt add-ons and manage them through some sort of store. It does put a lot of work at their feet given each would have to be vetted and updated, perhaps add-on creators could actually be paid to maintain them on said store. There is cheating in PVE as well, one of the video's I saw recently was a guy flying around elden root bombing everyone below. You may have seen it too as it made its rounds on the forums.

You still don't seem to get it.
Addons in ESO are not at all equivalent to Skyrim mods. Addons are officially supported by ZOS because they manage and control the API. If that goes away, all add-ons stop working. They already vet what add-ons are allowed to do through this process.
External third-party software that provides cheat functionality does not work through the add-on API to achieve those cheating results. Any removal of add-ons is unlikely to have an impact on those. It's not possible to lock down PCs the way consoles are locked down to prevent people from installing other pieces of software.

mairwen85

kringled_1 wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Daemons_Bane wrote: »

So you seem to think that this causes a few issues in PvP.. That sounds plausible.. But I think that removing all add-ons from a game that is majorly PvE based, just for that, seems a little harsh.. And I know that you said that some can be kept by ZOS, but let's face it.. They would have to keep ALL of them, every single one that has at least 1 download.. because you can't deny player the PvE his mod, just because the PvP player might be a cheater

I think you make a totally fair point, others have suggested ZOS officially adopt add-ons and manage them through some sort of store. It does put a lot of work at their feet given each would have to be vetted and updated, perhaps add-on creators could actually be paid to maintain them on said store. There is cheating in PVE as well, one of the video's I saw recently was a guy flying around elden root bombing everyone below. You may have seen it too as it made its rounds on the forums.

You still don't seem to get it.
Addons in ESO are not at all equivalent to Skyrim mods. Addons are officially supported by ZOS because they manage and control the API. If that goes away, all add-ons stop working. They already vet what add-ons are allowed to do through this process.
External third-party software that provides cheat functionality does not work through the add-on API to achieve those cheating results. Any removal of add-ons is unlikely to have an impact on those. It's not possible to lock down PCs the way consoles are locked down to prevent people from installing other pieces of software.

This has been said and reformulated numerous times already in this thread. I'm not sure the problem is a lack of understanding or just raw disbelief. Historically when API functionality has been shown to allow for exploitation, ZOS have closed the gaps by removing, making private, or changing the way those functions work or are provided. They control the API and therefore anything that passes through it is managed under the the rules ZOS set on it. Cheat tools do not use the API, they inject code into the client without it. This makes them fundamentally different to add-ons--the server side code/system/technology that is intended to catch them is clearly not up to task anymore, and that's what ZOS needs to address. Server-side control is the only way to address the type of cheating illustrated because it is un-managed and uncontrolled in the client.

kringled_1, apologes for repeating the same information.

relentless_turnip

kringled_1 wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Daemons_Bane wrote: »

So you seem to think that this causes a few issues in PvP.. That sounds plausible.. But I think that removing all add-ons from a game that is majorly PvE based, just for that, seems a little harsh.. And I know that you said that some can be kept by ZOS, but let's face it.. They would have to keep ALL of them, every single one that has at least 1 download.. because you can't deny player the PvE his mod, just because the PvP player might be a cheater

I think you make a totally fair point, others have suggested ZOS officially adopt add-ons and manage them through some sort of store. It does put a lot of work at their feet given each would have to be vetted and updated, perhaps add-on creators could actually be paid to maintain them on said store. There is cheating in PVE as well, one of the video's I saw recently was a guy flying around elden root bombing everyone below. You may have seen it too as it made its rounds on the forums.

You still don't seem to get it.
Addons in ESO are not at all equivalent to Skyrim mods. Addons are officially supported by ZOS because they manage and control the API. If that goes away, all add-ons stop working. They already vet what add-ons are allowed to do through this process.
External third-party software that provides cheat functionality does not work through the add-on API to achieve those cheating results. Any removal of add-ons is unlikely to have an impact on those. It's not possible to lock down PCs the way consoles are locked down to prevent people from installing other pieces of software.

By allowing access even limited access to anything on the client it blurs line between what should be there and what shouldn't. Making it harder to police it, it would be a lot simpler to say nothing but what ZOS implements can be on the client. I understand how add-ons are currently controlled and there functionality is limited to what they allow. I am saying it makes much harder to identify third party input that should not be there.

I am not saying removing add-ons will remove cheating, I am saying a no tolerance approach to third party input would make it easier. My reference to skyrim mods was a reference to other suggestions people have made, where zos personally adds them to the game and removes any ambiguity of its source.

mairwen85

relentless_turnip wrote: »

kringled_1 wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Daemons_Bane wrote: »

So you seem to think that this causes a few issues in PvP.. That sounds plausible.. But I think that removing all add-ons from a game that is majorly PvE based, just for that, seems a little harsh.. And I know that you said that some can be kept by ZOS, but let's face it.. They would have to keep ALL of them, every single one that has at least 1 download.. because you can't deny player the PvE his mod, just because the PvP player might be a cheater

I think you make a totally fair point, others have suggested ZOS officially adopt add-ons and manage them through some sort of store. It does put a lot of work at their feet given each would have to be vetted and updated, perhaps add-on creators could actually be paid to maintain them on said store. There is cheating in PVE as well, one of the video's I saw recently was a guy flying around elden root bombing everyone below. You may have seen it too as it made its rounds on the forums.

You still don't seem to get it.
Addons in ESO are not at all equivalent to Skyrim mods. Addons are officially supported by ZOS because they manage and control the API. If that goes away, all add-ons stop working. They already vet what add-ons are allowed to do through this process.
External third-party software that provides cheat functionality does not work through the add-on API to achieve those cheating results. Any removal of add-ons is unlikely to have an impact on those. It's not possible to lock down PCs the way consoles are locked down to prevent people from installing other pieces of software.

By allowing access even limited access to anything on the client it blurs line between what should be there and what shouldn't. Making it harder to police it, it would be a lot simpler to say nothing but what ZOS implements can be on the client. I understand how add-ons are currently controlled and there functionality is limited to what they allow. I am saying it makes much harder to identify third party input that should not be there.

I am not saying removing add-ons will remove cheating, I am saying a no tolerance approach to third party input would make it easier. My reference to skyrim mods was a reference to other suggestions people have made, where zos personally adds them to the game and removes any ambiguity of its source.

You're wrong. It's very easy to police what goes through the API. That's the purpose of it, it provides explicitly what ZOS allow, and inputs have to conform to what the API expects. Cheat tooling that injects code can only be discovered on the server where the data indicates anomalies.

Removing addons and the API will have no affect on the type of cheats demonstrated recently in videos shared on youtube, because they don't use the API.

edit to add:
this is why I'm glad richo262 mentioned miat's, which is a prime example of ZOS policing the api and locking out exploitative functionality. Another example is the chat add-on that could be used to force disconnect people (I forget the name, but am aware it was actually a bad function not the add-on itself) ; they can control that with minimal effort, an injected payload can't be fixed as easily and requires server side intervention.

Mancombe_Nosehair

People here seem unable to differentiate between players using add-ons and hackers.

relentless_turnip

[quote="You're wrong. It's very easy to police what goes through the API. That's the purpose of it, it provides explicitly what ZOS allow, and inputs have to conform to what the API expects. Cheat tooling that injects code can only be discovered on the server where the data indicates anomalies.

Removing addons and the API will have no affect on the type of cheats demonstrated recently in videos shared on youtube, because they don't use the API.

edit to add:
this is why I'm glad richo262 mentioned miat's, which is a prime example of ZOS policing the api and locking out exploitative functionality. Another example is the chat add-on that could be used to force disconnect people (I forget the name, but am aware it was actually a bad function not the add-on itself) ; they can control that with minimal effort, an injected payload can't be fixed as easily and requires server side intervention.

[/quote]

I appreciate your input, but I have stated many times I don't think people are cheating via add-ons. Maybe I haven't made that clear, apologies if that is the case.

The issue I am raising is with any third party input it makes detection of unwanted software more of a task, because there are too many files not created by ZOS. I am not talking about someone manipulating the game via API. The fact is I can create an add-on right now call it anything I like and nothing would stop me(within the spectrum of API). I could just as easily make a file and drop it into the eso directory and it wouldn't be identified as anything to be concerned about.

Wouldn't it be more than possible for ZOS to create a file scan upon the game being launched that scans for any additional files outside of those known and stops the game if any are found. I might be wrong about this and perhaps a bit ignorant, but wouldn't this stop any unwanted third party software?

relentless_turnip

Mancombe_Nosehair wrote: »

People here seem unable to differentiate between players using add-ons and hackers.

I appreciate it normally goes that way... that isn't my intention or point of view though

Elsonso

Xebov wrote: »

richo262 wrote: »

As for the addon conveniently representing information, yes, in PVE, that can be argued, and why IMO they are perfectly fine. In PVP however, it results in people running away, with their back turned, perfectly dodge rolling your attacks like they have eyes in the back of their heads.

For this you have to colect the addons and have a look on what data they are processing. Then make a suggestion to ZOS that this data is no longer available. Its as simple as that. Addons can only use Data provided via API and ZOS can limit what data can be got.

If I am following all of this, ZOS won't do this because their own UI uses this information and presents it to you, and that would break.

As for the OP suggestion of moving server-side calculations to the client: No. Don't trust the client to do the work of the server.

kringled_1

relentless_turnip wrote: »

[quote="You're wrong. It's very easy to police what goes through the API. That's the purpose of it, it provides explicitly what ZOS allow, and inputs have to conform to what the API expects. Cheat tooling that injects code can only be discovered on the server where the data indicates anomalies.

Removing addons and the API will have no affect on the type of cheats demonstrated recently in videos shared on youtube, because they don't use the API.

edit to add:
this is why I'm glad richo262 mentioned miat's, which is a prime example of ZOS policing the api and locking out exploitative functionality. Another example is the chat add-on that could be used to force disconnect people (I forget the name, but am aware it was actually a bad function not the add-on itself) ; they can control that with minimal effort, an injected payload can't be fixed as easily and requires server side intervention.

I appreciate your input, but I have stated many times I don't think people are cheating via add-ons. Maybe I haven't made that clear, apologies if that is the case.

The issue I am raising is with any third party input it makes detection of unwanted software more of a task, because there are too many files not created by ZOS. I am not talking about someone manipulating the game via API. The fact is I can create an add-on right now call it anything I like and nothing would stop me(within the spectrum of API). I could just as easily make a file and drop it into the eso directory and it wouldn't be identified as anything to be concerned about.

Wouldn't it be more than possible for ZOS to create a file scan upon the game being launched that scans for any additional files outside of those known and stops the game if any are found. I might be wrong about this and perhaps a bit ignorant, but wouldn't this stop any unwanted third party software?

There is no requirement for cheat software to necessarily live within the game file folders. Anti-cheat software that looks for signatures of known cheat software loaded into memory is possible but not something that ZOS is using at this time; some other large game publishers do use these but I don't know how effective they are or not. It does have to look for specific things, rather than 'anything outside of those known' because the universe of possible software that players could be running is enormous and larger than can be known.
ZOS certainly could do more to stop cheating. I just think the existence of add-ons has no real impact on their ability or decisions in this area.

Sarannah

I do not use add-ons, and don't mind others using QoL add-ons. But add-ons which give players advantages over other players should be disabled. Add-ons which tell you locations for items, like treasure chests for example. Or add-ons which give combat advantages. Those should all be disabled in my opinion.

daemonios

relentless_turnip wrote: »

I appreciate your input, but I have stated many times I don't think people are cheating via add-ons. Maybe I haven't made that clear, apologies if that is the case.

The issue I am raising is with any third party input it makes detection of unwanted software more of a task, because there are too many files not created by ZOS. I am not talking about someone manipulating the game via API. The fact is I can create an add-on right now call it anything I like and nothing would stop me(within the spectrum of API). I could just as easily make a file and drop it into the eso directory and it wouldn't be identified as anything to be concerned about.

Wouldn't it be more than possible for ZOS to create a file scan upon the game being launched that scans for any additional files outside of those known and stops the game if any are found. I might be wrong about this and perhaps a bit ignorant, but wouldn't this stop any unwanted third party software?

You're still not getting what others have been explaining. Add-ons are pieces of code loaded and executed by the game itself, within a framework defined and controlled by ZOS. They are not third party software in the sense that they don't run alongside the game, but inside it. Turning add-ons off would contribute exactly zero to the ability to detect and prevent malicious third-party software such as cheat engine. You would lose add-on functionality and gain nothing.

mairwen85

relentless_turnip wrote: »

mairwen85 wrote: »

You're wrong. It's very easy to police what goes through the API. That's the purpose of it, it provides explicitly what ZOS allow, and inputs have to conform to what the API expects. Cheat tooling that injects code can only be discovered on the server where the data indicates anomalies.

Removing addons and the API will have no affect on the type of cheats demonstrated recently in videos shared on youtube, because they don't use the API.

edit to add:
this is why I'm glad richo262 mentioned miat's, which is a prime example of ZOS policing the api and locking out exploitative functionality. Another example is the chat add-on that could be used to force disconnect people (I forget the name, but am aware it was actually a bad function not the add-on itself) ; they can control that with minimal effort, an injected payload can't be fixed as easily and requires server side intervention.

I appreciate your input, but I have stated many times I don't think people are cheating via add-ons. Maybe I haven't made that clear, apologies if that is the case.

The issue I am raising is with any third party input it makes detection of unwanted software more of a task, because there are too many files not created by ZOS. I am not talking about someone manipulating the game via API. The fact is I can create an add-on right now call it anything I like and nothing would stop me(within the spectrum of API). I could just as easily make a file and drop it into the eso directory and it wouldn't be identified as anything to be concerned about.

Wouldn't it be more than possible for ZOS to create a file scan upon the game being launched that scans for any additional files outside of those known and stops the game if any are found. I might be wrong about this and perhaps a bit ignorant, but wouldn't this stop any unwanted third party software?

I see what you're saying:
anything non-native makes it hard to tell what should or shouldn't be there.

What I'm saying is:
API only allows for things that should be there.

That's the nature of an API, it is under full control of the developer/provider. Cheats and hacks are outside of that. So where ZOS can 100% police code running off the API, they cannot do the same for cheat software and hacks dedicated to injecting and cheating, because those do not use the API. So, your interpretation of the scenario is flawed in this instance, cheating is unaffected by the presence or an API or lack thereof. Incoming information on the server is prepared by the client, anything which passes through the API is worked by it to the same rules as ZOS' own code, it does not blur any lines as it lives entirely within the lines that ZOS have drawn, cheat software doesn't.

Edit: fixed the damned broken quotes that have breaking the flow of conversation in every subsequent quote.

twev

Xebov wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Cheating is happening and it can't detected because of free use of addons.

No its not. Addons dont wildly inject random code into the game. They use a defined API from ZOS to access and modify game resources. What can be accessed is defined by ZOS. You cant control what exactly they are doing with the data, but inside the game everything is very well controlable. So i repeat myself, read up how these things work because what you are discribing is code injection and thats not happening here.

richo262 wrote: »

There are addons that allow for cheating. In PVE there are addons that warn you when to block/dodge etc. There are some that detect when another player is winding up a shot and gives the player forewarning to roll dodge.

Addons can only consume data provided via the Addon API and they show something to the player. This has nothing todo with cheating. ZOS allows this data to be read by addons and ZOS allows Addons to show things to the player. Whats happening there is intenionally, which means it is not cheating as ZOS explicitely allows it. If you like this or not is a different story, but it doesnt turn it into cheating.


EDIT:We realy need an edit button...

We have an edit button.
You need to refresh the page you responded on for the edit function to appear in the topp/right of your response frame.

TequilaFire

Env_t wrote: »

[Quoted post was removed]

Addons are written in LUA which most certainly is a software scripting language.

example LUA code:

do
  local oldprint = print
  -- Store current print function as oldprint
  function print(s)
    --[[ Redefine print function. The usual print function can still be used
      through oldprint. The new one has only one argument.]]
    oldprint(s == "foo" and "bar" or s)
  end
end

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lua_(programming_language)

relentless_turnip

I see what you're saying:
anything non-native makes it hard to tell what should or shouldn't be there.

What I'm saying is:
API only allows for things that should be there.

That's the nature of an API, it is under full control of the developer/provider. Cheats and hacks are outside of that. So where ZOS can 100% police code running off the API, they cannot do the same for cheat software and hacks dedicated to injecting and cheating, because those do not use the API. So, you're interpretation of the scenario is flawed in this instance, cheating is unaffected by the presence or an API or lack thereof. Incoming information on the server is prepared by the client, anything which passes through the API is worked by it to the same rules as ZOS' own code, it does not blur any lines as it lives entirely within the lines that ZOS have drawn, cheat software doesn't.

Edit: fixed the damned broken quotes that have breaking the flow of conversation in every subsequent quote.

[/quote]

Thanks for the clarification, I understand what you and others have said.
How does "cheat engine" (for example) interact with the client? I understand that add-ons work within the parameters set by the developer, but how do they police foreign files within the directory? regardless of their purpose.

Forgive my naivety, but they have no way to distinguish the library for harvest map from a picture of bunny I made MS paint right? or am I wrong

In video demonstrations of cheat software they seem to have an interface in game that allows them to change game parameters, move player position etc...

mairwen85

mairwen85 wrote: »

I see what you're saying:
anything non-native makes it hard to tell what should or shouldn't be there.

What I'm saying is:
API only allows for things that should be there.

That's the nature of an API, it is under full control of the developer/provider. Cheats and hacks are outside of that. So where ZOS can 100% police code running off the API, they cannot do the same for cheat software and hacks dedicated to injecting and cheating, because those do not use the API. So, you're interpretation of the scenario is flawed in this instance, cheating is unaffected by the presence or an API or lack thereof. Incoming information on the server is prepared by the client, anything which passes through the API is worked by it to the same rules as ZOS' own code, it does not blur any lines as it lives entirely within the lines that ZOS have drawn, cheat software doesn't.

Edit: fixed the damned broken quotes that have breaking the flow of conversation in every subsequent quote.

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Thanks for the clarification, I understand what you and others have said.
How does "cheat engine" (for example) interact with the client? I understand that add-ons work within the parameters set by the developer, but how do they police foreign files within the directory? regardless of their purpose.

Forgive my naivety, but they have no way to distinguish the library for harvest map from a picture of bunny I made MS paint right? or am I wrong

In video demonstrations of cheat software they seem to have an interface in game that allows them to change game parameters, move player position etc...

Cheat engine and similar tools modify the in memory processed data stream, this produces anomalies in the payload or introduces signatures which don't belong. They can be monitored and discovered server-side. Many of those which could be manipulated functions have been moved to the server for better control.

edit: fixing quotes again

daemonios

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Forgive my naivety, but they have no way to distinguish the library for harvest map from a picture of bunny I made MS paint right? or am I wrong

In video demonstrations of cheat software they seem to have an interface in game that allows them to change game parameters, move player position etc...

I'm no expert but typically these programs directly change values stored in memory by the game, e.g. making your hp or regen or movement speed higher than it should be. Many of these values and operations were moved to the server to reduce the attack surface, but clearly there are still client-side values that are manipulated by cheat software. Any element you see in those videos is an overlay, not a UI element from ESO or any add-on.

mairwen85

relentless_turnip wrote: »

In video demonstrations of cheat software they seem to have an interface in game that allows them to change game parameters, move player position etc...

Injecting an overly or HUD/UI into a running code base can also be done with enough knowledge via code marshalling. Reshade, for example, isn't a cheat specific software, but it also injects a HUD.

nemvar

Sarannah wrote: »

I do not use add-ons, and don't mind others using QoL add-ons. But add-ons which give players advantages over other players should be disabled. Add-ons which tell you locations for items, like treasure chests for example. Or add-ons which give combat advantages. Those should all be disabled in my opinion.

Alright, specifics.

Add-ons which tell you locations for items, like treasure chests for example.

Let us ask this simple question. How does an addon tell you the location of treasure chests?

Step 1: It detects a treasure map in your inventory.
Step 2: It looks up where the treasure is located.
Step 3: It draws an icon on that location.

Now, how would one go about disrupting this process?

How to disrupt Step 1? Prevent add-ons from seeing the inventory or prevent add-ons from being able to identify treasure maps.
How to work around this? Add a new menu that allows the user to search location by name.
How to disrupt this workaround? Prevent add-ons from adding new UI elements.

How to disrupt Step 2? You can't.

How to disrupt Step 3? Prevent add-ons from drawing on the map.
How to work around this? Add a new add-on map that allows adding icons to the map.
How to disrupt this workaround? Prevent developers from showing images.