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https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/668104/
• PC/Mac: NA and EU megaservers for maintenance – November 1, 4:00AM EDT (8:00 UTC) - 9:00AM EDT (13:00 UTC)
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/668104/
This patch can’t go live. For the love of this game do not let this go live as is
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relentless_turnip✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Combat would be pretty Terrible without animation cancelling. How would you block or dodge? You unterupt a skills animation to do something a lot more important. Can you imagine how plagued the forums be with claims of basic mechanics being broken...
The alternative is that your skill is cancelled, meaning you didn't get the heal you needed or the stun etc...
Honestly I'm not sure a lot of people understand why animation cancelling exists. You can still only do one skill per second. I really don't understand why there is this on going debate on it.
Weaving is a bit different but then it isn't hard to learn. Learning combos/rotations is much trickier then pressing LA, skill and block.4 -
Faulgor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Joy_Division wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »This is the only game I have ever played where patches make it less enjoyable to play
Makes me wonder why wow classic is such a huge success then... Or old school RuneScape. Just to stick to popular MMOs.
I could bring gta online here too, that's going FAST towards becoming saints row online...
Whether I like the patches or not, that's irrelevant here, but saying this is the only game where patches make the game worse is a stretch that renders your argument null.
Also, worse/better is a pov. I'm of the opinion that reducing DPS is great, but also that sucky sustain is bad for casual average players. To me, is this patch good or bad?
Answer? Both. Just like all the other patches ever in every game ever. Some people like it, some don't, most don't care or even hear about the changes.
And I'll go even further to say that after sustain gets figured out, metawise, no one will be too upset. Just like Morrowind. Remember that patch? I do. It sucked.
Null? I'll repeat myself.Joy_Division wrote: »This is the only game I have ever played where patches make it less enjoyable to play
Is it characteristic for MMOs to devolve and become less fun to play over time? It's an honest question, I haven't played one before. It doesn't strike me as a very sound business philosophy.
My mistake. You were very clear, my brain that's just tired.
And yes, it's pretty common. Between programming clutter, greed, power creep, innovations for the sake of innovations... Plenty of reasons that lead most, if not all, MMOs downhill. Some go down faster, some take longer, but eventually they all get this feeling of "whyyyyyyy???" that we're getting from ZOS right now. I don't think it's a philosophy, but a consequence of corporate thinking. Gotta keep ignorant nameless investors happy somehow.
OH, and unfriendly unwelcoming economies are also a thing that happen. If inflation's isn't kept at a hardcore check, it's impossible for new players to enjoy the game, and lots of games fail there too. ESO has so many gold sinks, it's one of the most stable economies I've seen in MMOs. Helps with this aura of casual friendly game too.
Fair enough. I think it would be better to build off of a foundation of the parts we do like rather than try to reinvent the game every 3 months, but I guess that's unrealistic.
I fully agree. However, Zos has mentioned vision a few times yet they really seem to lack vision and that comes from early on in the game.
Why just now are they codifying a vision for combat in the game? It seems that should have been done way more than 6 years ago and since it was not done, or not done well back then, they have struggled to manage this game since launch.
A great example of the lack of vision is the CP system. When Zos introduced it there was no artificial cap like we have now and they stated the average player would reach the full 3600 points in less than 2 years. When it was tested on the PTS we have access to the full 3600 points. We noted how OP we were with the full points yet Zos released it where we could get the full 3600 pts.
Granted, they made adjustments and placed the artificial cap we now have but it just goes to show how little Zos thinks things through and this is just one example. I personally think it is the same poor guidance, or lack of it, that is the reason this game launched in such a poor state back in 2014.
This is sadly so true. And I've been saying as much since release, beta even: Where is the vision?
So when people reminisce about a time when ESO had fun and interesting classes, I don't remember that. ESO's character and class system has been an absolute mess from the very beginning, and they've been struggling to change this running system into something enjoyable and cohesive ever since. From how much stamina builds were an afterthought, animation canceling being an accident and not designed, the introduction of CP, absolutely relentless skill reworks with every patch, to adding new classes into this mess, and so on and so on.
I was actually hopeful with the skill audit, foolish as I am. I believed what they said, that this would give them a base to finally move forward with a vision that improves class identity, yadda yadda. Nothing. This was supposed to be the patch, and it's just bad decision after bad decision.
"We will tackle that in a later patch", right, where have I heard that the last 5 years? Nothing, nothing ever gets done. We are still waiting on that CP system overhaul you talked about. You can write nice articles about class identity and power fantasies, but you don't actually have any clue how you want any of your classes to play, do you? Why else would you illustrate said article with a stam DK using Molten Armaments, a skill that hasn't been relevant in roughly 3 years.
If I could, I'd take a big rusty spoon, goop out the whole character system and flick it in the trash where it belongs.Edited by Faulgor on October 17, 2019 7:32AMAlandrol Sul: He's making another Numidium?!?
Vivec: Worse, buddy. They're buying it.4 -
halucin0g3n✭✭✭✭relentless_turnip wrote: »Combat would be pretty Terrible without animation cancelling. How would you block or dodge? You unterupt a skills animation to do something a lot more important. Can you imagine how plagued the forums be with claims of basic mechanics being broken...
The alternative is that your skill is cancelled, meaning you didn't get the heal you needed or the stun etc...
Honestly I'm not sure a lot of people understand why animation cancelling exists. You can still only do one skill per second. I really don't understand why there is this on going debate on it.
Weaving is a bit different but then it isn't hard to learn. Learning combos/rotations is much trickier then pressing LA, skill and block.
Yes, make it skill canceling, not animation canceling. If skill gets canceled so does the animation. If you just cancel the animation but you do the damage, you will still have insane DPS that ZOS is trying to butcher, not me or anyone else.7 -
universal_wrath✭✭✭✭✭universal_wrath wrote: »After watch the video of the devs talk, I can say for sure that dev don't play the game like player doing dungeon, trials, overland, and pvp stuff. Every cjange they did was from the forum and they are not even accurate about it. I mean, who the hell call for stone fiat to be rewoek as a spammable? I'm betting 90% of stam dk are ask for stam whip melee skill not some pop throw range skill. Stamina sorcerer never hit the mark, fot their identity, all stam sorcerer were asking for class spammavle and air atro or some sort of physical dmg class ultimate. That was what they needed most than adding boumd arment rework. Necromancer bugs were addressed but never fixed, just doing lazy work. If skeletons los target and stop and moving which is a bug.0 -
InvitationNotFound✭✭✭✭✭
✭...
Postpone dragonhold launch and add another 4 weeks of testing or don’t implement these changes at all to live with dragonhold.
...
Are you new here?
It is the same with every release. People bring up valid concerns, but it doesn't matter. If ZOS said a new update will be released on a certain date, it will be released. And every single time it is a mess.We want firing off Dark Exchange in the middle of combat to feel awesome... - The Wrobler
You know you don't have to be here right? - Rich Lambert
Verrätst du mir deinen Beruf? Ich würde auch gerne mal Annahmen dazu schreiben, wie simple die Aufgaben anderer sind. - Kai Schober
Addons:
RdK Group Tool: esoui DE EN FR
Port to Friend's House: esoui DE EN FR - Library: DE EN
Yet another Compass: esoui DE EN FR
Group Buffs: esoui DE EN FR3 -
BattleAxe✭✭✭✭✭InvitationNotFound wrote: »...
Postpone dragonhold launch and add another 4 weeks of testing or don’t implement these changes at all to live with dragonhold.
...
Are you new here?
It is the same with every release. People bring up valid concerns, but it doesn't matter. If ZOS said a new update will be released on a certain date, it will be released. And every single time it is a mess.
Ik they most likely won’t and no I am not new here. This is an honest last ditch long shot hope that the devs will actually listen before they utterly ruin this game for good.
Also if you actually read and tried to understand my wording I wasn’t asking for content to be delayed just combat changesEdited by BattleAxe on October 17, 2019 9:20AM3 -
universal_wrath✭✭✭✭✭universal_wrath wrote: »After watch the video of the devs talk, I can say for sure that dev don't play the game like player doing dungeon, trials, overland, and pvp stuff. Every cjange they did was from the forum and they are not even accurate about it. I mean, who the hell call for stone fiat to be rewoek as a spammable? I'm betting 90% of stam dk are ask for stam whip melee skill not some pop throw range skill. Stamina sorcerer never hit the mark, fot their identity, all stam sorcerer were asking for class spammavle and air atro or some sort of physical dmg class ultimate. That was what they needed most than adding boumd arment rework. Necromancer bugs were addressed but never fixed, just doing lazy work. If skeletons los target and stop and moving which is a bug, now they die faster so the bug does not last as longer, but it ia still there. Weapon aoes like endless hail and wall of elements are doing much more dmg than class abilities and can be enhaned to greately affect you dps more than you actual class abilities.
This becomes more concerning when when someone who unless I’m mistaken is a class rep posts a video essentially bashing some of these threads in a YouTube video
Wut? Who? Really?0 -
Sinolai✭✭✭✭✭last patch shouldn't have gone live. At this point I don't really care anymore what happens. I appreciate ZoS attempt of making every skill useful but the amount of fuckups in the current DPS rotation is so high I don't really mind getting few more. I just patiently wait for ZoS to come up with something better.Edited by Sinolai on October 17, 2019 11:42AM1
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Donny_Vito✭✭✭✭✭
✭The sad part is the updated code has most likely been compiled and ready for download, and is going through it's final testing to ensure properly delivery. I would not expect any more changes or reversions to be made at all.3 -
CaliMade✭✭✭✭Reading briefly through several forums it appears as no player feedback is being truly considered with changes being implemented.
Dots over nerfed and buffed up but still missing the claimed target of 33% weaker than live.
Stone fist being pushed through despite numerous complaints to its cost its animation (slam dunk would have been a stam whip but no)
Now this 50% nerf to daedric prey yet where is the power fantasy then for a pet master
Sustain is awful and this alone is a large amount of the problem
Postpone dragonhold launch and add another 4 weeks of testing or don’t implement these changes at all to live with dragonhold.
Sincerely
A very concerned and adamant player
STONE 👏 FIST 👏 IS AN EARTHEN 👏 HEART 👏 ABILITY 👏!!! i wish people would shut up about the cost.
*P.S.A.*
ANYONE WHO DOESN’T KNOW WHAT THIS MEANS SHOULD NEVER SPEAK ON DK AGAIN BECAUSE YOU CLEARLY DONT KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT THE CLASS
XB1 GT- Cali Made
Praetorian Stam DK Redguard
Brigadier Stam/magblade (whatever i feel like running) Redguard
Major Mag DK Dark Elf
lieutenant Mag/stamplar (whatever i feel like running) Redguard1 -
BlueRaven✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭LiquidPony wrote: »josh.lackey_ESO wrote: »
Do you honestly think most people use animation canceling? Most players don’t know what it is.
It’s not a mechanic that is widely known nor is it a mechanic that people flock to eso for. No one is looking back at older elder scrolls games fondly because of animation cancelling. And no one is playing wow classic because they did animation canceling better.
You take out animation canceling and then adjust (upwards) the damage the actual attacks do.
People who are doing tremendous dps use it, that is why they do tremendous dps. The rest of the players don’t.
Most players use it without even realizing it, sure they may not use it to the degree of very good players but that's beside the point.
The point is that people that ask for the removal of ac, don't have any clue what they are asking for.
Honestly, at this point i want the game to become better but i don;t have much hope for it, so for all i care fine get your animation cancelling removed, and play this game by yourself and maybe 10 people in the next few years.
Next big mmo that comes out and doesn't actually disappoint and eso is *** over, if they keep their promises on archeage and wow becomes better, you can kiss this game goodbye, because most don't play eso because it's a good mmo, they play it because there is no other good alternative.
Hell iv'e already left, i play wow, the bfa expansion by the way, this is just how bad eso is, i would prefer playing a slightly upgraded bfa rather than eso how *** it is.
As it currently stands this game is a disgrace to the elder scrolls franchise.
At the moment this game is in the top 3 because it satisfies people that want fast combat that is similar to action combat in some ways, but wanna bet that if bdo didn't have as much of a p2w grind, and more and better pve content or if gw2 had some actual progression this game wouldn't be in the top 3, if they keep their promises on archeage, that game might actually take over in the next few years, granted, that is if eso doesn't actually fix the core problems.
Did you go back to wow because they do animation cancelling better then eso? Are all spells in Warcraft instant cast now? By the way, is global cool down still a thing in wow?
I think you commented a bit too early because i finished my thought on that, and it's quite frankly a really stupid point.
The games are fundamentally different and that is lazy thinking, and you know that, but you are not here to provide facts, you are here to make a point about how animation cancelling is bad for some reasons and you do not even understand the consequences of removing it from the game.
Honestly before this patch I did not care about animation cancelling. Doing over the top dps is/was not a priority for me. And for the people who liked it, good for them.
But these nerfs were targeted at the high end dps and they (Zos) did so without care for how it effects everyone else.
So what would be a way to tap down high end dps without effecting the common player? The obvious way, I feel, is animation cancelling. It is a technique utilized mostly be high end players.
If you can think of a different way to tone down high end dps WITHOUT effecting the dps of the common player, please share. I don’t care if animation canceling stays (although the concept of it does bother me) but if you have a better idea I am willing to hear and accept it.
Your premise is wrong to begin with, you want to bring down the top to the bottom? So basically what you are saying is *** all the people that actually put effort into learning things, this is why your premise is wrong to begin with.
This is not my premise. I don't want any nerfs at all. Zos has stated these changes (nerfs) are aimed at the endgame players.
They said so very bluntly.
They also said they don't care about how the changes effect people who log in just to "kill dragons".
Which they also said very bluntly.
I think this is stupid to punish common players for other people having "too high" of dps.
The solution is not to bring good players to the level of bad players, that will just leave you with a game that end game player will not want to play, because their effort is meaningless, the solution is to create a game that encourages people to become better, at the moment this game does not do that, hence why there are so few end game guilds that actually do stuff.
With these patch changes people doing super high dps will still be doing all the stuff they are doing now. But the people on the lower end of the spectrum will now be shut out of content. Is that healthy for the game?
If they want the 100k dps to go to 75k dps, I am just trying to suggest a way to do it with out the 20k dps falling to 15k. Can you think of a better way?
And is 75k and 20k dps on the "same level" to you?
Again I don't want any nerfs, but Zos does. I am just suggesting a way that minimizes the impact on lower end players. So come up with a solution that is better than mine.Eso suffers from massive amounts of bad players, more than any other game, and that is partially the fault of the game itself, because there aren't many information to access in game, i learned about animation cancelling randomly, they could have made a quest, and call it like training the troops, and there could have been a voice acted npc talking about how you can use your abilities and how to cancel animations or weave, just an idea out of my head.
This would solve quite a few things already, then again some players are beyond saving.
"Did you know you can swing your weapon without moving your hands? Here, let me show you how." Said the quest giver. (Yes, very immersive.)
Personally what I like most about Skyrim was how no one did any animations when in combat. I mean in ESO why have animations at all, we can just all stand around still having staring contests at bosses, that will save money on development. What I liked best when doing heroic Lich King was how our raid group hardly showed any animations at all. That is what made Wow great! /sarcasmThe point is to make a game that people join and enjoy for prolonged periods of time, so they can become good players, to do that you need to make information easily accessible, and encourage people to actually become better, otherwise you will have a game where people play for a few months to some years and then leave.
Animation cancelling is a technical glitch that the developers just did not care to correct. They did not fix it for the same reason they don't fix HRC, because it actually needs effort on their part. It's easier for them to say "sure, ok" then to actually make the game better.
It looks bad in game.
It feels like an exploit.
It's not intuitive.
And if your computer is not quick enough, it is impossible.
If high end players want to use it, fine. But if high end payers using it creates a reason for Zos to nerf common player dps who don't use it, that is a problem.
High end players use a lot of other methods to keep their dps high. (Bar swapping, etc.) A skill gap is not going to disappear because of animation cancelling going away.
But again it does not have to. Please, come up with a solution that fills Zos's "nerf high end player dps" priorities without stopping common players from doing content.
So you are not really looking for a solution, you are looking for a dream. Iv'e already given you a solution that is much better than nerfing the high end.
How to reduce the top tier damage without doing anything to the low end? You make the game uninteresting by removing anything that can give you an edge in battle, so out with animation cancelling, out with item sets, out with personal choice, you make it so spamming a single ability does equal damage compared to having a full fledged out rotation, remove synergies, remove off balance, remove dodge,remove block, you remove any incentive to get better at the game, and you rebalance all content based on the current status of the game.
Or you cap the damage, which is also a really bad solution, and quite frankly i don't know how they would do it.
What you don't like the game anymore now because it has absolutely 0 depth? Well this is what you asked for, you just didn't realize it.
The reduce the high end leads only to *** answers, because if you nerf damage you just nerf it for everyone, but the high end still does much more than the low end, so the only way to make things more equal, is to remove anything that gives you an edge in battle, and with that you killed the game so good job.
Is this the game you want? Fine, i will not be a part in it, when there are much better games.
You do not understand the reason why nerfs keep happening, which is why you seemingly put the fault on the players that are doing 100k damage, that is only a symptom iv'e already said what the reason is in previous posts i made, or at least a good majority of it, the fault basically boils down to the devs themselves.
You also said the usual bs about how animation cancelling is seemingly IMPOSSIBLE with a bad computer, dude, i can use animation cancelling with 300 ping, just the usual stuff you see on the forums honestly, people that understand frankly nothing talk about things that they don;t really understand.
Maybe some personal responsibility would be of use here, if you have a really bad connection than maybe mmos aren't for you, should everyone else lose because you can't keep up? I have a couple of ideas, one of them is to get better internet, if you can't than maybe you have to reevaluate your priorities, because it's most likely because you cannot afford it, and having high latency in a mmo is the last of your worries, if it is because you live in a town with really bad internet, well, life isn't fair and it doesn't fall on other people to lose out because of it, there are many ways of getting better internet, it's not necessarily fiber optics, and again, when you say things like this, you are not putting the fault where you should, performance has always been a problem in this game.
First, I like how you keep assuming my computer/internet connects are bad. It's very entertaining seeing you make wrong assumptions about people.
Second, nerfing the high end players is not my idea. (How hard is that to understand?) It is Zos stated goal. 100k dps players don't bother me, but it bothers Zos so that is why they are nerfing the dps. But they are doing it so lazily and without thought to how it effects everyone and that does bother me. This dot/aoe change is so lazy it feels like something they thought of on a morning commute, not three months of planning. And it is being implemented by a team that actually does not care how it effects the common player.
Your apparent "solution" ("the solution is to create a game that encourages people to become better") is basically "get good" which is laughable. Getting good is not some radical solution they can implement in game (not with their "blind fold and throw a dart" combat changes every three months). They tried with the spell suggestions, but there is an average dps and that average dps will now be substantially lower.
Which means overall the pool for players doing dps dependent content will go down as well. And that will frustrate the higher end players who will find less players for group content.
Apparently you are fine with fewer people doing group content? Because with lower dps fewer people will be doing dungeons and trials. Personally I am not, I want as many people to do dungeons and vet content as possible because that is how we get more of that content. but if you push the lower end dps out of it, that is what you will get.
Players who are struggling now are not going to get better, they are just going to see what ever progress they made wiped out and have no content to do. Players on the edge of the bubble will be left behind.
And all I did was try to think of something, ANYTHING , that will lower top end dps without punishing everyone else. To keep that pool of players doing the content at least somewhat stable. Something actually in game, that is programmable. Not some vague "maybe we can highlight that weird game developer approved glitch that no other MMO would implement in a game".
And lastly not everyone has a high end internet connection. Not everyone has the latest computer and not everyone has the best computer equipment. I know this because I was in several different trial groups across many guilds until Update 23 basically wiped them out. I have seen all players from high end to low, few people are investing a ton of real world money to play an MMO. Not everyone has unlimited budgets or live in areas where the internet is any good.
Me, I have an expensive computer and a great internet connection (I need them for work as I have large files I need to create on and send), but I know most players are not like me.
It is literally not possible to remove "animation cancelling" from ESO without completely rebuilding every bit of combat and content in the game.
You want to be able to block when an attack's coming your way, without waiting for a second or more for an animation to finish, right?
You want to be able to swap to your S&B bar when a heavy attack's incoming, without waiting a second or more for an animation to finish, right?
Most skills are instant cast. Instant means instant, it does not mean "after a 1-second animation".
Animation cancelling will be a part of ESO combat until they shut the servers down. Asking for its removal is a pointless exercise, mostly done by people who don't actually understand what they're asking for.
Finally! Someone actually has an actual argument for keeping animation cancelling that is not “I need to protect my dps.” Thank you!
There is actually some fair points and not something I considered.
My counter proposal would be that defensive actions (block, roll, and interrupt) can still happen instantly. But visually the attack animation would still continue. (Finally changing to the defense animation if it is still in effect.)
This way defensive abilities can still be instantly cast.
Bar swaps would be instant as well with the same restrictions.
Anyway, the details can change. But the concept of firing off additional attacks through animation cancelling should be looked at, if high dps is truly an issue for Zos.
1 -
BlueRaven✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭halucin0g3n wrote: »relentless_turnip wrote: »Combat would be pretty Terrible without animation cancelling. How would you block or dodge? You unterupt a skills animation to do something a lot more important. Can you imagine how plagued the forums be with claims of basic mechanics being broken...
The alternative is that your skill is cancelled, meaning you didn't get the heal you needed or the stun etc...
Honestly I'm not sure a lot of people understand why animation cancelling exists. You can still only do one skill per second. I really don't understand why there is this on going debate on it.
Weaving is a bit different but then it isn't hard to learn. Learning combos/rotations is much trickier then pressing LA, skill and block.
Yes, make it skill canceling, not animation canceling. If skill gets canceled so does the animation. If you just cancel the animation but you do the damage, you will still have insane DPS that ZOS is trying to butcher, not me or anyone else.
Boom! This!^^^universal_wrath wrote: »universal_wrath wrote: »After watch the video of the devs talk, I can say for sure that dev don't play the game like player doing dungeon, trials, overland, and pvp stuff. Every cjange they did was from the forum and they are not even accurate about it. I mean, who the hell call for stone fiat to be rewoek as a spammable? I'm betting 90% of stam dk are ask for stam whip melee skill not some pop throw range skill. Stamina sorcerer never hit the mark, fot their identity, all stam sorcerer were asking for class spammavle and air atro or some sort of physical dmg class ultimate. That was what they needed most than adding boumd arment rework. Necromancer bugs were addressed but never fixed, just doing lazy work. If skeletons los target and stop and moving which is a bug, now they die faster so the bug does not last as longer, but it ia still there. Weapon aoes like endless hail and wall of elements are doing much more dmg than class abilities and can be enhaned to greately affect you dps more than you actual class abilities.
This becomes more concerning when when someone who unless I’m mistaken is a class rep posts a video essentially bashing some of these threads in a YouTube video
Wut? Who? Really?
I would like to see this video as well.2 -
DoonerSeraph✭✭✭✭Reading briefly through several forums it appears as no player feedback is being truly considered with changes being implemented.
Dots over nerfed and buffed up but still missing the claimed target of 33% weaker than live.
Stone fist being pushed through despite numerous complaints to its cost its animation (slam dunk would have been a stam whip but no)
Now this 50% nerf to daedric prey yet where is the power fantasy then for a pet master
Sustain is awful and this alone is a large amount of the problem
Postpone dragonhold launch and add another 4 weeks of testing or don’t implement these changes at all to live with dragonhold.
Sincerely
A very concerned and adamant player
STONE 👏 FIST 👏 IS AN EARTHEN 👏 HEART 👏 ABILITY 👏!!! i wish people would shut up about the cost.
*P.S.A.*
ANYONE WHO DOESN’T KNOW WHAT THIS MEANS SHOULD NEVER SPEAK ON DK AGAIN BECAUSE YOU CLEARLY DONT KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT THE CLASS
Lol. Just because it procs helping hands it does not justify the cost.
What about increasing all templar skill costs because they have Restoring Spirit?
Nightblades have a 15% bonus in all recoveries due to Refreshing Shadows, welp, better increase all their magicka and stamina costs by 15% too.
But wait! They also recover 2k resources after killing a target that was previously hit with and assassination skill, should we increase the cost of Assassin's Blade too? Its the most common way to proc executioner.10 -
relentless_turnip✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭LiquidPony wrote: »josh.lackey_ESO wrote: »
Do you honestly think most people use animation canceling? Most players don’t know what it is.
It’s not a mechanic that is widely known nor is it a mechanic that people flock to eso for. No one is looking back at older elder scrolls games fondly because of animation cancelling. And no one is playing wow classic because they did animation canceling better.
You take out animation canceling and then adjust (upwards) the damage the actual attacks do.
People who are doing tremendous dps use it, that is why they do tremendous dps. The rest of the players don’t.
Most players use it without even realizing it, sure they may not use it to the degree of very good players but that's beside the point.
The point is that people that ask for the removal of ac, don't have any clue what they are asking for.
Honestly, at this point i want the game to become better but i don;t have much hope for it, so for all i care fine get your animation cancelling removed, and play this game by yourself and maybe 10 people in the next few years.
Next big mmo that comes out and doesn't actually disappoint and eso is *** over, if they keep their promises on archeage and wow becomes better, you can kiss this game goodbye, because most don't play eso because it's a good mmo, they play it because there is no other good alternative.
Hell iv'e already left, i play wow, the bfa expansion by the way, this is just how bad eso is, i would prefer playing a slightly upgraded bfa rather than eso how *** it is.
As it currently stands this game is a disgrace to the elder scrolls franchise.
At the moment this game is in the top 3 because it satisfies people that want fast combat that is similar to action combat in some ways, but wanna bet that if bdo didn't have as much of a p2w grind, and more and better pve content or if gw2 had some actual progression this game wouldn't be in the top 3, if they keep their promises on archeage, that game might actually take over in the next few years, granted, that is if eso doesn't actually fix the core problems.
Did you go back to wow because they do animation cancelling better then eso? Are all spells in Warcraft instant cast now? By the way, is global cool down still a thing in wow?
I think you commented a bit too early because i finished my thought on that, and it's quite frankly a really stupid point.
The games are fundamentally different and that is lazy thinking, and you know that, but you are not here to provide facts, you are here to make a point about how animation cancelling is bad for some reasons and you do not even understand the consequences of removing it from the game.
Honestly before this patch I did not care about animation cancelling. Doing over the top dps is/was not a priority for me. And for the people who liked it, good for them.
But these nerfs were targeted at the high end dps and they (Zos) did so without care for how it effects everyone else.
So what would be a way to tap down high end dps without effecting the common player? The obvious way, I feel, is animation cancelling. It is a technique utilized mostly be high end players.
If you can think of a different way to tone down high end dps WITHOUT effecting the dps of the common player, please share. I don’t care if animation canceling stays (although the concept of it does bother me) but if you have a better idea I am willing to hear and accept it.
Your premise is wrong to begin with, you want to bring down the top to the bottom? So basically what you are saying is *** all the people that actually put effort into learning things, this is why your premise is wrong to begin with.
This is not my premise. I don't want any nerfs at all. Zos has stated these changes (nerfs) are aimed at the endgame players.
They said so very bluntly.
They also said they don't care about how the changes effect people who log in just to "kill dragons".
Which they also said very bluntly.
I think this is stupid to punish common players for other people having "too high" of dps.
The solution is not to bring good players to the level of bad players, that will just leave you with a game that end game player will not want to play, because their effort is meaningless, the solution is to create a game that encourages people to become better, at the moment this game does not do that, hence why there are so few end game guilds that actually do stuff.
With these patch changes people doing super high dps will still be doing all the stuff they are doing now. But the people on the lower end of the spectrum will now be shut out of content. Is that healthy for the game?
If they want the 100k dps to go to 75k dps, I am just trying to suggest a way to do it with out the 20k dps falling to 15k. Can you think of a better way?
And is 75k and 20k dps on the "same level" to you?
Again I don't want any nerfs, but Zos does. I am just suggesting a way that minimizes the impact on lower end players. So come up with a solution that is better than mine.Eso suffers from massive amounts of bad players, more than any other game, and that is partially the fault of the game itself, because there aren't many information to access in game, i learned about animation cancelling randomly, they could have made a quest, and call it like training the troops, and there could have been a voice acted npc talking about how you can use your abilities and how to cancel animations or weave, just an idea out of my head.
This would solve quite a few things already, then again some players are beyond saving.
"Did you know you can swing your weapon without moving your hands? Here, let me show you how." Said the quest giver. (Yes, very immersive.)
Personally what I like most about Skyrim was how no one did any animations when in combat. I mean in ESO why have animations at all, we can just all stand around still having staring contests at bosses, that will save money on development. What I liked best when doing heroic Lich King was how our raid group hardly showed any animations at all. That is what made Wow great! /sarcasmThe point is to make a game that people join and enjoy for prolonged periods of time, so they can become good players, to do that you need to make information easily accessible, and encourage people to actually become better, otherwise you will have a game where people play for a few months to some years and then leave.
Animation cancelling is a technical glitch that the developers just did not care to correct. They did not fix it for the same reason they don't fix HRC, because it actually needs effort on their part. It's easier for them to say "sure, ok" then to actually make the game better.
It looks bad in game.
It feels like an exploit.
It's not intuitive.
And if your computer is not quick enough, it is impossible.
If high end players want to use it, fine. But if high end payers using it creates a reason for Zos to nerf common player dps who don't use it, that is a problem.
High end players use a lot of other methods to keep their dps high. (Bar swapping, etc.) A skill gap is not going to disappear because of animation cancelling going away.
But again it does not have to. Please, come up with a solution that fills Zos's "nerf high end player dps" priorities without stopping common players from doing content.
So you are not really looking for a solution, you are looking for a dream. Iv'e already given you a solution that is much better than nerfing the high end.
How to reduce the top tier damage without doing anything to the low end? You make the game uninteresting by removing anything that can give you an edge in battle, so out with animation cancelling, out with item sets, out with personal choice, you make it so spamming a single ability does equal damage compared to having a full fledged out rotation, remove synergies, remove off balance, remove dodge,remove block, you remove any incentive to get better at the game, and you rebalance all content based on the current status of the game.
Or you cap the damage, which is also a really bad solution, and quite frankly i don't know how they would do it.
What you don't like the game anymore now because it has absolutely 0 depth? Well this is what you asked for, you just didn't realize it.
The reduce the high end leads only to *** answers, because if you nerf damage you just nerf it for everyone, but the high end still does much more than the low end, so the only way to make things more equal, is to remove anything that gives you an edge in battle, and with that you killed the game so good job.
Is this the game you want? Fine, i will not be a part in it, when there are much better games.
You do not understand the reason why nerfs keep happening, which is why you seemingly put the fault on the players that are doing 100k damage, that is only a symptom iv'e already said what the reason is in previous posts i made, or at least a good majority of it, the fault basically boils down to the devs themselves.
You also said the usual bs about how animation cancelling is seemingly IMPOSSIBLE with a bad computer, dude, i can use animation cancelling with 300 ping, just the usual stuff you see on the forums honestly, people that understand frankly nothing talk about things that they don;t really understand.
Maybe some personal responsibility would be of use here, if you have a really bad connection than maybe mmos aren't for you, should everyone else lose because you can't keep up? I have a couple of ideas, one of them is to get better internet, if you can't than maybe you have to reevaluate your priorities, because it's most likely because you cannot afford it, and having high latency in a mmo is the last of your worries, if it is because you live in a town with really bad internet, well, life isn't fair and it doesn't fall on other people to lose out because of it, there are many ways of getting better internet, it's not necessarily fiber optics, and again, when you say things like this, you are not putting the fault where you should, performance has always been a problem in this game.
First, I like how you keep assuming my computer/internet connects are bad. It's very entertaining seeing you make wrong assumptions about people.
Second, nerfing the high end players is not my idea. (How hard is that to understand?) It is Zos stated goal. 100k dps players don't bother me, but it bothers Zos so that is why they are nerfing the dps. But they are doing it so lazily and without thought to how it effects everyone and that does bother me. This dot/aoe change is so lazy it feels like something they thought of on a morning commute, not three months of planning. And it is being implemented by a team that actually does not care how it effects the common player.
Your apparent "solution" ("the solution is to create a game that encourages people to become better") is basically "get good" which is laughable. Getting good is not some radical solution they can implement in game (not with their "blind fold and throw a dart" combat changes every three months). They tried with the spell suggestions, but there is an average dps and that average dps will now be substantially lower.
Which means overall the pool for players doing dps dependent content will go down as well. And that will frustrate the higher end players who will find less players for group content.
Apparently you are fine with fewer people doing group content? Because with lower dps fewer people will be doing dungeons and trials. Personally I am not, I want as many people to do dungeons and vet content as possible because that is how we get more of that content. but if you push the lower end dps out of it, that is what you will get.
Players who are struggling now are not going to get better, they are just going to see what ever progress they made wiped out and have no content to do. Players on the edge of the bubble will be left behind.
And all I did was try to think of something, ANYTHING , that will lower top end dps without punishing everyone else. To keep that pool of players doing the content at least somewhat stable. Something actually in game, that is programmable. Not some vague "maybe we can highlight that weird game developer approved glitch that no other MMO would implement in a game".
And lastly not everyone has a high end internet connection. Not everyone has the latest computer and not everyone has the best computer equipment. I know this because I was in several different trial groups across many guilds until Update 23 basically wiped them out. I have seen all players from high end to low, few people are investing a ton of real world money to play an MMO. Not everyone has unlimited budgets or live in areas where the internet is any good.
Me, I have an expensive computer and a great internet connection (I need them for work as I have large files I need to create on and send), but I know most players are not like me.
It is literally not possible to remove "animation cancelling" from ESO without completely rebuilding every bit of combat and content in the game.
You want to be able to block when an attack's coming your way, without waiting for a second or more for an animation to finish, right?
You want to be able to swap to your S&B bar when a heavy attack's incoming, without waiting a second or more for an animation to finish, right?
Most skills are instant cast. Instant means instant, it does not mean "after a 1-second animation".
Animation cancelling will be a part of ESO combat until they shut the servers down. Asking for its removal is a pointless exercise, mostly done by people who don't actually understand what they're asking for.
Finally! Someone actually has an actual argument for keeping animation cancelling that is not “I need to protect my dps.” Thank you!
There is actually some fair points and not something I considered.
My counter proposal would be that defensive actions (block, roll, and interrupt) can still happen instantly. But visually the attack animation would still continue. (Finally changing to the defense animation if it is still in effect.)
This way defensive abilities can still be instantly cast.
Bar swaps would be instant as well with the same restrictions.
Anyway, the details can change. But the concept of firing off additional attacks through animation cancelling should be looked at, if high dps is truly an issue for Zos.
It's an interesting proposal, but for skills to remain instant there would have to be animation cancelled at some stage.
Would you not see the defensive skills cast?
When people talk about animation cancelling and it being the route of high dps, it isn't... and it is... In truth it is an incredibly well rehearsed rotation.
Someone who is well versed in his/her rotation knows the exact point to cancel each animation and hit light attack. This makes their attacks look nearly constant.
You can fit a possible of three attacks into a 1 second 2 of them are not on your skill bar. Those skills are: light attack, skill, block/bash.
In regards to PvP...
It is combos that kill people.
What would stop people being killed in PvP is if they banned combos😂
You practice combos for different situations and I can't see how they'd stop that!? Or Why they'd stop that!? There has to be some skill involved or we may as well have one ability buffed by passives.
The common misconception is that players are casting more than one skill at a time due to animation cancelling. It isn't possible due to global cool down.
4 -
SidraWillowsky✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Only a few people in my PvE trials guild mess around on PTS, the rest just ask me what they should do and I'm having a hard time coming up with anything better than "play something else"
So far the answer is, build for a LOT more sustain. At the very least add another regen glyph, back bar absorb mag and clockwork citris, take half your skills off your bars and replace them with anything that gives you a passive dps buff and then still expect a 10k dps drop.
Our mid tier dps are going to be shattered. Absolutely demoralised by this update. The ones who have been putting in effort to try and get better are going to get hit hardest and are going to see all their dps nerfed back to where they were 6 months ago.
I will not be surprised at all if they stop turning up.
Last week we cleared vAS+2 for the first time. Normally we'd be bringing through some of the mid tier dps to get their skins and helping everyone improve before moving on to vCR. Forget that now, vAS+2 is out of reach again. Should we restart prog on it because of your nerfs @ZOS_BrianWheeler ?
Should I be telling my guild that because of this patch we're staying in vAS+2 for the rest of the year as we desperately try and claw back the dps we just lost?
[removed inappropriate comment]
Edited to remove inappropriate comment?!?!?!? This is one of the best posts I've ever seen here, and you.... watered down the most poignant and impassioned part to completely change the message. OK then
2 -
JinMori✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭halucin0g3n wrote: »josh.lackey_ESO wrote: »
Do you honestly think most people use animation canceling? Most players don’t know what it is.
It’s not a mechanic that is widely known nor is it a mechanic that people flock to eso for. No one is looking back at older elder scrolls games fondly because of animation cancelling. And no one is playing wow classic because they did animation canceling better.
You take out animation canceling and then adjust (upwards) the damage the actual attacks do.
People who are doing tremendous dps use it, that is why they do tremendous dps. The rest of the players don’t.
Most players use it without even realizing it, sure they may not use it to the degree of very good players but that's beside the point.
The point is that people that ask for the removal of ac, don't have any clue what they are asking for.
Honestly, at this point i want the game to become better but i don;t have much hope for it, so for all i care fine get your animation cancelling removed, and play this game by yourself and maybe 10 people in the next few years.
Next big mmo that comes out and doesn't actually disappoint and eso is *** over, if they keep their promises on archeage and wow becomes better, you can kiss this game goodbye, because most don't play eso because it's a good mmo, they play it because there is no other good alternative.
Hell iv'e already left, i play wow, the bfa expansion by the way, this is just how bad eso is, i would prefer playing a slightly upgraded bfa rather than eso how *** it is.
As it currently stands this game is a disgrace to the elder scrolls franchise.
At the moment this game is in the top 3 because it satisfies people that want fast combat that is similar to action combat in some ways, but wanna bet that if bdo didn't have as much of a p2w grind, and more and better pve content or if gw2 had some actual progression this game wouldn't be in the top 3, if they keep their promises on archeage, that game might actually take over in the next few years, granted, that is if eso doesn't actually fix the core problems.
Did you go back to wow because they do animation cancelling better then eso? Are all spells in Warcraft instant cast now? By the way, is global cool down still a thing in wow?
I think you commented a bit too early because i finished my thought on that, and it's quite frankly a really stupid point.
The games are fundamentally different and that is lazy thinking, and you know that, but you are not here to provide facts, you are here to make a point about how animation cancelling is bad for some reasons and you do not even understand the consequences of removing it from the game.
Honestly before this patch I did not care about animation cancelling. Doing over the top dps is/was not a priority for me. And for the people who liked it, good for them.
But these nerfs were targeted at the high end dps and they (Zos) did so without care for how it effects everyone else.
So what would be a way to tap down high end dps without effecting the common player? The obvious way, I feel, is animation cancelling. It is a technique utilized mostly be high end players.
If you can think of a different way to tone down high end dps WITHOUT effecting the dps of the common player, please share. I don’t care if animation canceling stays (although the concept of it does bother me) but if you have a better idea I am willing to hear and accept it.
Your premise is wrong to begin with, you want to bring down the top to the bottom? So basically what you are saying is *** all the people that actually put effort into learning things, this is why your premise is wrong to begin with.
This is not my premise. I don't want any nerfs at all. Zos has stated these changes (nerfs) are aimed at the endgame players.
They said so very bluntly.
They also said they don't care about how the changes effect people who log in just to "kill dragons".
Which they also said very bluntly.
I think this is stupid to punish common players for other people having "too high" of dps.
The solution is not to bring good players to the level of bad players, that will just leave you with a game that end game player will not want to play, because their effort is meaningless, the solution is to create a game that encourages people to become better, at the moment this game does not do that, hence why there are so few end game guilds that actually do stuff.
With these patch changes people doing super high dps will still be doing all the stuff they are doing now. But the people on the lower end of the spectrum will now be shut out of content. Is that healthy for the game?
If they want the 100k dps to go to 75k dps, I am just trying to suggest a way to do it with out the 20k dps falling to 15k. Can you think of a better way?
And is 75k and 20k dps on the "same level" to you?
Again I don't want any nerfs, but Zos does. I am just suggesting a way that minimizes the impact on lower end players. So come up with a solution that is better than mine.Eso suffers from massive amounts of bad players, more than any other game, and that is partially the fault of the game itself, because there aren't many information to access in game, i learned about animation cancelling randomly, they could have made a quest, and call it like training the troops, and there could have been a voice acted npc talking about how you can use your abilities and how to cancel animations or weave, just an idea out of my head.
This would solve quite a few things already, then again some players are beyond saving.
"Did you know you can swing your weapon without moving your hands? Here, let me show you how." Said the quest giver. (Yes, very immersive.)
Personally what I like most about Skyrim was how no one did any animations when in combat. I mean in ESO why have animations at all, we can just all stand around still having staring contests at bosses, that will save money on development. What I liked best when doing heroic Lich King was how our raid group hardly showed any animations at all. That is what made Wow great! /sarcasmThe point is to make a game that people join and enjoy for prolonged periods of time, so they can become good players, to do that you need to make information easily accessible, and encourage people to actually become better, otherwise you will have a game where people play for a few months to some years and then leave.
Animation cancelling is a technical glitch that the developers just did not care to correct. They did not fix it for the same reason they don't fix HRC, because it actually needs effort on their part. It's easier for them to say "sure, ok" then to actually make the game better.
It looks bad in game.
It feels like an exploit.
It's not intuitive.
And if your computer is not quick enough, it is impossible.
If high end players want to use it, fine. But if high end payers using it creates a reason for Zos to nerf common player dps who don't use it, that is a problem.
High end players use a lot of other methods to keep their dps high. (Bar swapping, etc.) A skill gap is not going to disappear because of animation cancelling going away.
But again it does not have to. Please, come up with a solution that fills Zos's "nerf high end player dps" priorities without stopping common players from doing content.
So you are not really looking for a solution, you are looking for a dream. Iv'e already given you a solution that is much better than nerfing the high end.
How to reduce the top tier damage without doing anything to the low end? You make the game uninteresting by removing anything that can give you an edge in battle, so out with animation cancelling, out with item sets, out with personal choice, you make it so spamming a single ability does equal damage compared to having a full fledged out rotation, remove synergies, remove off balance, remove dodge,remove block, you remove any incentive to get better at the game, and you rebalance all content based on the current status of the game.
Or you cap the damage, which is also a really bad solution, and quite frankly i don't know how they would do it.
What you don't like the game anymore now because it has absolutely 0 depth? Well this is what you asked for, you just didn't realize it.
The reduce the high end leads only to *** answers, because if you nerf damage you just nerf it for everyone, but the high end still does much more than the low end, so the only way to make things more equal, is to remove anything that gives you an edge in battle, and with that you killed the game so good job.
Is this the game you want? Fine, i will not be a part in it, when there are much better games.
You do not understand the reason why nerfs keep happening, which is why you seemingly put the fault on the players that are doing 100k damage, that is only a symptom iv'e already said what the reason is in previous posts i made, or at least a good majority of it, the fault basically boils down to the devs themselves.
You also said the usual bs about how animation cancelling is seemingly IMPOSSIBLE with a bad computer, dude, i can use animation cancelling with 300 ping, just the usual stuff you see on the forums honestly, people that understand frankly nothing talk about things that they don;t really understand.
Maybe some personal responsibility would be of use here, if you have a really bad connection than maybe mmos aren't for you, should everyone else lose because you can't keep up? I have a couple of ideas, one of them is to get better internet, if you can't than maybe you have to reevaluate your priorities, because it's most likely because you cannot afford it, and having high latency in a mmo is the last of your worries, if it is because you live in a town with really bad internet, well, life isn't fair and it doesn't fall on other people to lose out because of it, there are many ways of getting better internet, it's not necessarily fiber optics, and again, when you say things like this, you are not putting the fault where you should, performance has always been a problem in this game.
First, I like how you keep assuming my computer/internet connects are bad. It's very entertaining seeing you make wrong assumptions about people.
Second, nerfing the high end players is not my idea. (How hard is that to understand?) It is Zos stated goal. 100k dps players don't bother me, but it bothers Zos so that is why they are nerfing the dps. But they are doing it so lazily and without thought to how it effects everyone and that does bother me. This dot/aoe change is so lazy it feels like something they thought of on a morning commute, not three months of planning. And it is being implemented by a team that actually does not care how it effects the common player.
Your apparent "solution" ("the solution is to create a game that encourages people to become better") is basically "get good" which is laughable. Getting good is not some radical solution they can implement in game (not with their "blind fold and throw a dart" combat changes every three months). They tried with the spell suggestions, but there is an average dps and that average dps will now be substantially lower.
Which means overall the pool for players doing dps dependent content will go down as well. And that will frustrate the higher end players who will find less players for group content.
Apparently you are fine with fewer people doing group content? Because with lower dps fewer people will be doing dungeons and trials. Personally I am not, I want as many people to do dungeons and vet content as possible because that is how we get more of that content. but if you push the lower end dps out of it, that is what you will get.
Players who are struggling now are not going to get better, they are just going to see what ever progress they made wiped out and have no content to do. Players on the edge of the bubble will be left behind.
And all I did was try to think of something, ANYTHING , that will lower top end dps without punishing everyone else. To keep that pool of players doing the content at least somewhat stable. Something actually in game, that is programmable. Not some vague "maybe we can highlight that weird game developer approved glitch that no other MMO would implement in a game".
And lastly not everyone has a high end internet connection. Not everyone has the latest computer and not everyone has the best computer equipment. I know this because I was in several different trial groups across many guilds until Update 23 basically wiped them out. I have seen all players from high end to low, few people are investing a ton of real world money to play an MMO. Not everyone has unlimited budgets or live in areas where the internet is any good.
Me, I have an expensive computer and a great internet connection (I need them for work as I have large files I need to create on and send), but I know most players are not like me.
i'm gonna close it with this.
You did exactly what you accused me of, you thought that what i said was specifically related to you, it wasn't, only the part where i responded to your question about providing a solution is, the rest was a general statement, not aimed at you.
I know that when you respond to someone you think that the whole argument is about you people people, the brain is very egocentric, so whatever you say they take it as personal, but it wasn't.
I'm tired of repeating myself and thinking for other people, do your own thinking, find yourself the solution if you can, if you think that you can decrease the skill gap without also affecting the game negatively or close the gap without affecting also the low end, you are wrong.
As i said before, they can close the gap by removing anything that gives good player an advantage over bad players or by capping the dps which is almost equally as bad, that is it, they can nerf sets that are used by the high end mostly, but then they ruin any incentive to get better gear, if you nerf abilities, you nerf equally across the board, so that is not a solution to that problem, as i said, there is no good solution for this, only varying degrees of ***.
If this is the game that zos envisions, then it's not for me, the fact is that they cannot really do it without destroying the game also, which is why i said "you don't want a solution, you want a perfect dream where everything works regardless".
The only real solution to this problem, that leads to objectively the best result is to make people care about getting good, to make the game so good, that people wanna improve because they wanna experience all the content in the game, this is not the way to do it, constantly ignoring the core problems the game has, and delaying facing the problem another day is not the way to do it. At that point if you still do not care, then don;t come to the forums complaining about how you are a lamb to the slaughter in pvp.
The matter of fact is that getting good is really not that hard, if you really, and i mean really suck at the game is because you haven;t bothered one bit, or you have coordination problems, like physical problems.
Man, you have no idea what you`re barking about. BlueRaven is right, disabling animation canceling or some weaving cool down or such, will stop high-end DPS reaching those insane numbers ZOS is trying to prevent. Nerfing all skills and passives will not get anyone anywhere.
People like you are pretty annoying, because at this point i feel forced to respond when someone clearly misunderstands what i said, what do you think i meant when i said remove any advantage that high end players have over low end?
I honestly probably should stop posting about these things on the forums, because people are not here for a discussion, they are here to score brownie points, and if that means purposefully misunderstanding the argument then that's fine, and most of all, they only accept answers they like as solution, so literally it's pointless talking to people like you because you will only accept animation cancelling bad as an answer, and people like you demonstrated this many times.
You are not here for a honest discussion about what's better for the game, about what leads to overall the best result for everyone, you are here to point out that you don't like animation cancelling, and should be removed because it makes some people stronger than others.
The point is that it wouldn't make the game better, but worse overall.
Now that i cleared the misunderstanding that should have never happened i hope that you will not further misunderstand what was said.Edited by JinMori on October 18, 2019 1:06AM4 -
BattleAxe✭✭✭✭✭Reading briefly through several forums it appears as no player feedback is being truly considered with changes being implemented.
Dots over nerfed and buffed up but still missing the claimed target of 33% weaker than live.
Stone fist being pushed through despite numerous complaints to its cost its animation (slam dunk would have been a stam whip but no)
Now this 50% nerf to daedric prey yet where is the power fantasy then for a pet master
Sustain is awful and this alone is a large amount of the problem
Postpone dragonhold launch and add another 4 weeks of testing or don’t implement these changes at all to live with dragonhold.
Sincerely
A very concerned and adamant player
STONE 👏 FIST 👏 IS AN EARTHEN 👏 HEART 👏 ABILITY 👏!!! i wish people would shut up about the cost.
*P.S.A.*
ANYONE WHO DOESN’T KNOW WHAT THIS MEANS SHOULD NEVER SPEAK ON DK AGAIN BECAUSE YOU CLEARLY DONT KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT THE CLASS
I main a dk ik stone fist is an earthen heart ability sure it procs 990 stam on cast but that goes to the cost of the skill and has no effect on dk sustain. Guess what I can cast molten armaments and use heavy attacks and get even more stamina in return versus getting no stamina with stone fist. Only real benefit we get spamming stonefist is the ultimate generation and minor brutality but now let’s look at molten armaments grants both major sorcery and brutality will also proc 990 stam ultimate generation and the minor brutality also heavy attacks are 50% stronger but you won’t mention that will you. So all around stone fist is a bust too costly clunky stagger mechanic and stun and probably one of the worst animation for a skill2 -
WreckfulAbandon✭✭✭✭✭
✭DoonerSeraph wrote: »Lol. Just because it procs helping hands it does not justify the cost.
What about increasing all templar skill costs because they have Restoring Spirit?
Nightblades have a 15% bonus in all recoveries due to Refreshing Shadows, welp, better increase all their magicka and stamina costs by 15% too.
But wait! They also recover 2k resources after killing a target that was previously hit with and assassination skill, should we increase the cost of Assassin's Blade too? Its the most common way to proc executioner.
With ideas like you just might get a job offer from ZOSPC NA
All my comments are regarding PvP6 -
SodanTok✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭InvitationNotFound wrote: »...
Postpone dragonhold launch and add another 4 weeks of testing or don’t implement these changes at all to live with dragonhold.
...
Are you new here?
It is the same with every release. People bring up valid concerns, but it doesn't matter. If ZOS said a new update will be released on a certain date, it will be released. And every single time it is a mess.
Ik they most likely won’t and no I am not new here. This is an honest last ditch long shot hope that the devs will actually listen before they utterly ruin this game for good.
Also if you actually read and tried to understand my wording I wasn’t asking for content to be delayed just combat changes
"ruin the game for good"?
Oh boohoo you are such drama queen. Everyone will adapt and carry on in month time. Its not worse than last patch was and its definitely not bigger deal than what Morrowind or Murkmire did.1 -
NiteAdder✭✭✭The best thing we can do is not to play this patch and do not spend any money on crowns. Population in end game trials is way down.3
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Vapirko✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Idk if I’m quitting, but I’ve lost interest for the time being. I’ve found another MMO with PvP that’s awesome, great graphics, no FPS drops almost zero lag, I tried coming back to ESO after a week and my first thought was how have I been playing this for so long.3 -
Xvorg✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭LiquidPony wrote: »josh.lackey_ESO wrote: »
Do you honestly think most people use animation canceling? Most players don’t know what it is.
It’s not a mechanic that is widely known nor is it a mechanic that people flock to eso for. No one is looking back at older elder scrolls games fondly because of animation cancelling. And no one is playing wow classic because they did animation canceling better.
You take out animation canceling and then adjust (upwards) the damage the actual attacks do.
People who are doing tremendous dps use it, that is why they do tremendous dps. The rest of the players don’t.
Most players use it without even realizing it, sure they may not use it to the degree of very good players but that's beside the point.
The point is that people that ask for the removal of ac, don't have any clue what they are asking for.
Honestly, at this point i want the game to become better but i don;t have much hope for it, so for all i care fine get your animation cancelling removed, and play this game by yourself and maybe 10 people in the next few years.
Next big mmo that comes out and doesn't actually disappoint and eso is *** over, if they keep their promises on archeage and wow becomes better, you can kiss this game goodbye, because most don't play eso because it's a good mmo, they play it because there is no other good alternative.
Hell iv'e already left, i play wow, the bfa expansion by the way, this is just how bad eso is, i would prefer playing a slightly upgraded bfa rather than eso how *** it is.
As it currently stands this game is a disgrace to the elder scrolls franchise.
At the moment this game is in the top 3 because it satisfies people that want fast combat that is similar to action combat in some ways, but wanna bet that if bdo didn't have as much of a p2w grind, and more and better pve content or if gw2 had some actual progression this game wouldn't be in the top 3, if they keep their promises on archeage, that game might actually take over in the next few years, granted, that is if eso doesn't actually fix the core problems.
Did you go back to wow because they do animation cancelling better then eso? Are all spells in Warcraft instant cast now? By the way, is global cool down still a thing in wow?
I think you commented a bit too early because i finished my thought on that, and it's quite frankly a really stupid point.
The games are fundamentally different and that is lazy thinking, and you know that, but you are not here to provide facts, you are here to make a point about how animation cancelling is bad for some reasons and you do not even understand the consequences of removing it from the game.
Honestly before this patch I did not care about animation cancelling. Doing over the top dps is/was not a priority for me. And for the people who liked it, good for them.
But these nerfs were targeted at the high end dps and they (Zos) did so without care for how it effects everyone else.
So what would be a way to tap down high end dps without effecting the common player? The obvious way, I feel, is animation cancelling. It is a technique utilized mostly be high end players.
If you can think of a different way to tone down high end dps WITHOUT effecting the dps of the common player, please share. I don’t care if animation canceling stays (although the concept of it does bother me) but if you have a better idea I am willing to hear and accept it.
Your premise is wrong to begin with, you want to bring down the top to the bottom? So basically what you are saying is *** all the people that actually put effort into learning things, this is why your premise is wrong to begin with.
This is not my premise. I don't want any nerfs at all. Zos has stated these changes (nerfs) are aimed at the endgame players.
They said so very bluntly.
They also said they don't care about how the changes effect people who log in just to "kill dragons".
Which they also said very bluntly.
I think this is stupid to punish common players for other people having "too high" of dps.
The solution is not to bring good players to the level of bad players, that will just leave you with a game that end game player will not want to play, because their effort is meaningless, the solution is to create a game that encourages people to become better, at the moment this game does not do that, hence why there are so few end game guilds that actually do stuff.
With these patch changes people doing super high dps will still be doing all the stuff they are doing now. But the people on the lower end of the spectrum will now be shut out of content. Is that healthy for the game?
If they want the 100k dps to go to 75k dps, I am just trying to suggest a way to do it with out the 20k dps falling to 15k. Can you think of a better way?
And is 75k and 20k dps on the "same level" to you?
Again I don't want any nerfs, but Zos does. I am just suggesting a way that minimizes the impact on lower end players. So come up with a solution that is better than mine.Eso suffers from massive amounts of bad players, more than any other game, and that is partially the fault of the game itself, because there aren't many information to access in game, i learned about animation cancelling randomly, they could have made a quest, and call it like training the troops, and there could have been a voice acted npc talking about how you can use your abilities and how to cancel animations or weave, just an idea out of my head.
This would solve quite a few things already, then again some players are beyond saving.
"Did you know you can swing your weapon without moving your hands? Here, let me show you how." Said the quest giver. (Yes, very immersive.)
Personally what I like most about Skyrim was how no one did any animations when in combat. I mean in ESO why have animations at all, we can just all stand around still having staring contests at bosses, that will save money on development. What I liked best when doing heroic Lich King was how our raid group hardly showed any animations at all. That is what made Wow great! /sarcasmThe point is to make a game that people join and enjoy for prolonged periods of time, so they can become good players, to do that you need to make information easily accessible, and encourage people to actually become better, otherwise you will have a game where people play for a few months to some years and then leave.
Animation cancelling is a technical glitch that the developers just did not care to correct. They did not fix it for the same reason they don't fix HRC, because it actually needs effort on their part. It's easier for them to say "sure, ok" then to actually make the game better.
It looks bad in game.
It feels like an exploit.
It's not intuitive.
And if your computer is not quick enough, it is impossible.
If high end players want to use it, fine. But if high end payers using it creates a reason for Zos to nerf common player dps who don't use it, that is a problem.
High end players use a lot of other methods to keep their dps high. (Bar swapping, etc.) A skill gap is not going to disappear because of animation cancelling going away.
But again it does not have to. Please, come up with a solution that fills Zos's "nerf high end player dps" priorities without stopping common players from doing content.
So you are not really looking for a solution, you are looking for a dream. Iv'e already given you a solution that is much better than nerfing the high end.
How to reduce the top tier damage without doing anything to the low end? You make the game uninteresting by removing anything that can give you an edge in battle, so out with animation cancelling, out with item sets, out with personal choice, you make it so spamming a single ability does equal damage compared to having a full fledged out rotation, remove synergies, remove off balance, remove dodge,remove block, you remove any incentive to get better at the game, and you rebalance all content based on the current status of the game.
Or you cap the damage, which is also a really bad solution, and quite frankly i don't know how they would do it.
What you don't like the game anymore now because it has absolutely 0 depth? Well this is what you asked for, you just didn't realize it.
The reduce the high end leads only to *** answers, because if you nerf damage you just nerf it for everyone, but the high end still does much more than the low end, so the only way to make things more equal, is to remove anything that gives you an edge in battle, and with that you killed the game so good job.
Is this the game you want? Fine, i will not be a part in it, when there are much better games.
You do not understand the reason why nerfs keep happening, which is why you seemingly put the fault on the players that are doing 100k damage, that is only a symptom iv'e already said what the reason is in previous posts i made, or at least a good majority of it, the fault basically boils down to the devs themselves.
You also said the usual bs about how animation cancelling is seemingly IMPOSSIBLE with a bad computer, dude, i can use animation cancelling with 300 ping, just the usual stuff you see on the forums honestly, people that understand frankly nothing talk about things that they don;t really understand.
Maybe some personal responsibility would be of use here, if you have a really bad connection than maybe mmos aren't for you, should everyone else lose because you can't keep up? I have a couple of ideas, one of them is to get better internet, if you can't than maybe you have to reevaluate your priorities, because it's most likely because you cannot afford it, and having high latency in a mmo is the last of your worries, if it is because you live in a town with really bad internet, well, life isn't fair and it doesn't fall on other people to lose out because of it, there are many ways of getting better internet, it's not necessarily fiber optics, and again, when you say things like this, you are not putting the fault where you should, performance has always been a problem in this game.
First, I like how you keep assuming my computer/internet connects are bad. It's very entertaining seeing you make wrong assumptions about people.
Second, nerfing the high end players is not my idea. (How hard is that to understand?) It is Zos stated goal. 100k dps players don't bother me, but it bothers Zos so that is why they are nerfing the dps. But they are doing it so lazily and without thought to how it effects everyone and that does bother me. This dot/aoe change is so lazy it feels like something they thought of on a morning commute, not three months of planning. And it is being implemented by a team that actually does not care how it effects the common player.
Your apparent "solution" ("the solution is to create a game that encourages people to become better") is basically "get good" which is laughable. Getting good is not some radical solution they can implement in game (not with their "blind fold and throw a dart" combat changes every three months). They tried with the spell suggestions, but there is an average dps and that average dps will now be substantially lower.
Which means overall the pool for players doing dps dependent content will go down as well. And that will frustrate the higher end players who will find less players for group content.
Apparently you are fine with fewer people doing group content? Because with lower dps fewer people will be doing dungeons and trials. Personally I am not, I want as many people to do dungeons and vet content as possible because that is how we get more of that content. but if you push the lower end dps out of it, that is what you will get.
Players who are struggling now are not going to get better, they are just going to see what ever progress they made wiped out and have no content to do. Players on the edge of the bubble will be left behind.
And all I did was try to think of something, ANYTHING , that will lower top end dps without punishing everyone else. To keep that pool of players doing the content at least somewhat stable. Something actually in game, that is programmable. Not some vague "maybe we can highlight that weird game developer approved glitch that no other MMO would implement in a game".
And lastly not everyone has a high end internet connection. Not everyone has the latest computer and not everyone has the best computer equipment. I know this because I was in several different trial groups across many guilds until Update 23 basically wiped them out. I have seen all players from high end to low, few people are investing a ton of real world money to play an MMO. Not everyone has unlimited budgets or live in areas where the internet is any good.
Me, I have an expensive computer and a great internet connection (I need them for work as I have large files I need to create on and send), but I know most players are not like me.
It is literally not possible to remove "animation cancelling" from ESO without completely rebuilding every bit of combat and content in the game.
You want to be able to block when an attack's coming your way, without waiting for a second or more for an animation to finish, right?
You want to be able to swap to your S&B bar when a heavy attack's incoming, without waiting a second or more for an animation to finish, right?
Most skills are instant cast. Instant means instant, it does not mean "after a 1-second animation".
Animation cancelling will be a part of ESO combat until they shut the servers down. Asking for its removal is a pointless exercise, mostly done by people who don't actually understand what they're asking for.
Hmmm, yesterday I was watching some videos of the old SNK sword based game "The Last Blade". They had an interesting approcah: 2 modes (actually 3, but whatever)--> Speed and Power.
I started thinking, why don't ZoS does something similar? They don't have to remove ani cancel, just they must allow an character that want to rely on slow button press withou weaving play, but to do so they need to increase the base dmg of each skill in a 20% to compensate the difference between ani cancel and not ani cancel (only for "power based" chars). Of course, those "power based" characters should not be allowed to anicancel.Sarcasm is something too serious to be taken lightly
I was born with the wrong sign
In the wrong house
With the wrong ascendancy
I took the wrong road
That led to the wrong tendencies
I was in the wrong place at the wrong time
For the wrong reason and the wrong rhyme
On the wrong day of the wrong week
Used the wrong method with the wrong technique2 -
BattleAxe✭✭✭✭✭InvitationNotFound wrote: »...
Postpone dragonhold launch and add another 4 weeks of testing or don’t implement these changes at all to live with dragonhold.
...
Are you new here?
It is the same with every release. People bring up valid concerns, but it doesn't matter. If ZOS said a new update will be released on a certain date, it will be released. And every single time it is a mess.
Ik they most likely won’t and no I am not new here. This is an honest last ditch long shot hope that the devs will actually listen before they utterly ruin this game for good.
Also if you actually read and tried to understand my wording I wasn’t asking for content to be delayed just combat changes
"ruin the game for good"?
Oh boohoo you are such drama queen. Everyone will adapt and carry on in month time. Its not worse than last patch was and its definitely not bigger deal than what Morrowind or Murkmire did.
Damage reduced costs increases. Everyone really? Players who just learned their rotation a week ago are gonna be good to go in a month. Scalebreaker was not all that bad the problem was dots were buffed but the hard counters like purge were not brought up enough to alleviate the dot increases. People before complained nobody died in pvp because of tank meta and now people are dying but it’s bad seriously. Only problem with dot buff is that there was so many to choose from with the buffs entropy and soul trap received other than that it wasn’t half bad.1 -
TheNightflame✭✭✭✭✭you'd almost think zos is treating eso like a celebrity with all these changes so your brain cant help but want to keep up and stay with the game.
scalebreaker went live, they fundamentally changed healers, they'll do anything they want.
The VAST majority of their players are skyrim transfers who don't really care for an mmo0 -
SodanTok✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭InvitationNotFound wrote: »...
Postpone dragonhold launch and add another 4 weeks of testing or don’t implement these changes at all to live with dragonhold.
...
Are you new here?
It is the same with every release. People bring up valid concerns, but it doesn't matter. If ZOS said a new update will be released on a certain date, it will be released. And every single time it is a mess.
Ik they most likely won’t and no I am not new here. This is an honest last ditch long shot hope that the devs will actually listen before they utterly ruin this game for good.
Also if you actually read and tried to understand my wording I wasn’t asking for content to be delayed just combat changes
"ruin the game for good"?
Oh boohoo you are such drama queen. Everyone will adapt and carry on in month time. Its not worse than last patch was and its definitely not bigger deal than what Morrowind or Murkmire did.
Damage reduced costs increases. Everyone really? Players who just learned their rotation a week ago are gonna be good to go in a month. Scalebreaker was not all that bad the problem was dots were buffed but the hard counters like purge were not brought up enough to alleviate the dot increases. People before complained nobody died in pvp because of tank meta and now people are dying but it’s bad seriously. Only problem with dot buff is that there was so many to choose from with the buffs entropy and soul trap received other than that it wasn’t half bad.
Yes. People that spend 2 months learning live rotation are gonna learn new PTS rotation in 2 weeks tops. DMG on the floor barely dropped. The game is literally gonna get simpler and easier next patch. Sustain will sux just for Magicka (not thats good), but it wont be any worse what we had after Morrowind for nearly 2 years. PVP issue of DoT is getting fixed, obviously there will be another main issue to complain about, but thats just wednesday around here.
See you next PTS. Or someone that will replace you in the 'going emotional over balance changes' department.1 -
TheNightflame✭✭✭✭✭anyone who plays or cares about the game is or was already done with zos' style and left the game for rl or another one2
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teladoy✭✭✭✭✭Reading briefly through several forums it appears as no player feedback is being truly considered with changes being implemented.
Dots over nerfed and buffed up but still missing the claimed target of 33% weaker than live.
Stone fist being pushed through despite numerous complaints to its cost its animation (slam dunk would have been a stam whip but no)
Now this 50% nerf to daedric prey yet where is the power fantasy then for a pet master
Sustain is awful and this alone is a large amount of the problem
Postpone dragonhold launch and add another 4 weeks of testing or don’t implement these changes at all to live with dragonhold.
Sincerely
A very concerned and adamant player
Ehhhh did you ever thought in the money that their already multimillionaire bosses and investors needs?
Don't be egoist...Edited by teladoy on October 17, 2019 4:04PM0 -
BattleAxe✭✭✭✭✭InvitationNotFound wrote: »...
Postpone dragonhold launch and add another 4 weeks of testing or don’t implement these changes at all to live with dragonhold.
...
Are you new here?
It is the same with every release. People bring up valid concerns, but it doesn't matter. If ZOS said a new update will be released on a certain date, it will be released. And every single time it is a mess.
Ik they most likely won’t and no I am not new here. This is an honest last ditch long shot hope that the devs will actually listen before they utterly ruin this game for good.
Also if you actually read and tried to understand my wording I wasn’t asking for content to be delayed just combat changes
"ruin the game for good"?
Oh boohoo you are such drama queen. Everyone will adapt and carry on in month time. Its not worse than last patch was and its definitely not bigger deal than what Morrowind or Murkmire did.
Damage reduced costs increases. Everyone really? Players who just learned their rotation a week ago are gonna be good to go in a month. Scalebreaker was not all that bad the problem was dots were buffed but the hard counters like purge were not brought up enough to alleviate the dot increases. People before complained nobody died in pvp because of tank meta and now people are dying but it’s bad seriously. Only problem with dot buff is that there was so many to choose from with the buffs entropy and soul trap received other than that it wasn’t half bad.
Yes. People that spend 2 months learning live rotation are gonna learn new PTS rotation in 2 weeks tops. DMG on the floor barely dropped. The game is literally gonna get simpler and easier next patch. Sustain will sux just for Magicka (not thats good), but it wont be any worse what we had after Morrowind for nearly 2 years. PVP issue of DoT is getting fixed, obviously there will be another main issue to complain about, but thats just wednesday around here.
See you next PTS. Or someone that will replace you in the 'going emotional over balance changes' department.
Your claiming I’m getting emotional over these changes when if you actually look at my forum history I defended many changes the devs made. Sustain will suck just for magicka but isn’t this play the way you want so why is it sustain has to suck for 1 side. Pvp issue of dots is being fixed correction nerfed also 2 months learn new rotation in 2 weeks well let’s see that’s new gear and transmutes leveling skills if not done already fine tuning cp testing. Dmg on the floor barely dropped have you even played with players just getting the hang of a rotation dps on the floor is really low. The lower dmg barely effects the top but is felt by the lower end. This game is getting simpler and easier right with all these new stacking mechanics a mini game in a game keep stacks up.
You must not have played every class or maybe then you would understand that what’s good for the goose isn’t always good for the gander.0
