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https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/668104/
• PC/Mac: NA and EU megaservers for maintenance – November 1, 4:00AM EDT (8:00 UTC) - 9:00AM EDT (13:00 UTC)
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/668104/
This patch can’t go live. For the love of this game do not let this go live as is
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Artorias24✭✭✭✭✭
✭Man, i dont even know why we are using that forum here. They are clearly not listening or just ignoring.
Every patch they drop 80% of the playerbase disagrees with their changes.
Cast time on ults: so many players didnt wanted that change, hundres of posts in forum to remove it, so much Feedback on how bad it is for combat flow and more. ZOS: "ye we know our majority of the playerbase dont want it but we did it anyway, lel"
Overbuff to dots: week 1 we told them "ZOS, thats too much." And guess what, we Had this 3 month of absolute mess of dots melting down players in pvp with 0 counterplay... We even care giving Feedback at this Point?
Living dark: the immobilize was so unhealthy, magplars being Impossible to chase. Still made it to live.
Necro still worse and has maaaany pain points. None of them are really adressed. Blastbones are a meme, tether is clunky and gets losed and the armor buff is still the worst one out of all classes. But zos said they are happy with necro so.... I guess nothing will change...
Stone fist. Giving stamdk a ranged spammable. How can you show more that you are completly out of touch with your own game? And it doesnt even looks good. Its a squirt you shoot at your enemy. Who on earth is like: "ye, that looks powerfull and cool." Thats a meme and we are talking about tripple A developers here... What a joke.6 -
JinMori✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭If you still think that the game can go on like this fine and dandy you are not being realistic, i for sure will not play this game until they actually address some of the core points, i do not really care anymore about nerfs and buffs, because they are only a symptom of the real problem, sure they *** me off, but at this point, *** it.
This game is going down as it is, you cannot sustain the game on hype only from new shiny expansion.
Zos needs to fix the *** problems, they need to stop it with this willy nilly approach, with these half measures, and actually do something.
Iv'e already said my piece many times, so i won't be repeating it here again, but i honestly think it would be overall the best approach.1 -
Taloros✭✭✭✭As a last minute effort...
ZOS, please do not implement the gameplay changes. Add the new content, but leave combat as is. That'll give time to review the feedback properly and decide if any changes are necessary.3 -
LadyAstrum✭✭✭✭✭
✭halucin0g3n wrote: »
Man, you have no idea what you`re barking about. BlueRaven is right, disabling animation canceling or some weaving cool down or such, will stop high-end DPS reaching those insane numbers ZOS is trying to prevent. Nerfing all skills and passives will not get anyone anywhere.
I agree. Just take it out. I'm not impressed that ZoS decided to balance around what was essentially an "accident" anyway.~ "You think me brutish? How do you imagine I view you?" - Molag Bal #misunderstood ~4 -
Vahrokh✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭josh.lackey_ESO wrote: »
Do you honestly think most people use animation canceling? Most players don’t know what it is.
It’s not a mechanic that is widely known nor is it a mechanic that people flock to eso for. No one is looking back at older elder scrolls games fondly because of animation cancelling. And no one is playing wow classic because they did animation canceling better.
You take out animation canceling and then adjust (upwards) the damage the actual attacks do.
People who are doing tremendous dps use it, that is why they do tremendous dps. The rest of the players don’t.
Most players use it without even realizing it, sure they may not use it to the degree of very good players but that's beside the point.
The point is that people that ask for the removal of ac, don't have any clue what they are asking for.
Honestly, at this point i want the game to become better but i don;t have much hope for it, so for all i care fine get your animation cancelling removed, and play this game by yourself and maybe 10 people in the next few years.
Next big mmo that comes out and doesn't actually disappoint and eso is *** over, if they keep their promises on archeage and wow becomes better, you can kiss this game goodbye, because most don't play eso because it's a good mmo, they play it because there is no other good alternative.
Hell iv'e already left, i play wow, the bfa expansion by the way, this is just how bad eso is, i would prefer playing a slightly upgraded bfa rather than eso how *** it is.
As it currently stands this game is a disgrace to the elder scrolls franchise.
At the moment this game is in the top 3 because it satisfies people that want fast combat that is similar to action combat in some ways, but wanna bet that if bdo didn't have as much of a p2w grind, and more and better pve content or if gw2 had some actual progression this game wouldn't be in the top 3, if they keep their promises on archeage, that game might actually take over in the next few years, granted, that is if eso doesn't actually fix the core problems.
Did you go back to wow because they do animation cancelling better then eso? Are all spells in Warcraft instant cast now? By the way, is global cool down still a thing in wow?
I think you commented a bit too early because i finished my thought on that, and it's quite frankly a really stupid point.
The games are fundamentally different and that is lazy thinking, and you know that, but you are not here to provide facts, you are here to make a point about how animation cancelling is bad for some reasons and you do not even understand the consequences of removing it from the game.
Honestly before this patch I did not care about animation cancelling. Doing over the top dps is/was not a priority for me. And for the people who liked it, good for them.
But these nerfs were targeted at the high end dps and they (Zos) did so without care for how it effects everyone else.
So what would be a way to tap down high end dps without effecting the common player? The obvious way, I feel, is animation cancelling. It is a technique utilized mostly be high end players.
If you can think of a different way to tone down high end dps WITHOUT effecting the dps of the common player, please share. I don’t care if animation canceling stays (although the concept of it does bother me) but if you have a better idea I am willing to hear and accept it.
Your premise is wrong to begin with, you want to bring down the top to the bottom? So basically what you are saying is *** all the people that actually put effort into learning things, this is why your premise is wrong to begin with.
This is not my premise. I don't want any nerfs at all. Zos has stated these changes (nerfs) are aimed at the endgame players.
They said so very bluntly.
They also said they don't care about how the changes effect people who log in just to "kill dragons".
Which they also said very bluntly.
I think this is stupid to punish common players for other people having "too high" of dps.
The solution is not to bring good players to the level of bad players, that will just leave you with a game that end game player will not want to play, because their effort is meaningless, the solution is to create a game that encourages people to become better, at the moment this game does not do that, hence why there are so few end game guilds that actually do stuff.
With these patch changes people doing super high dps will still be doing all the stuff they are doing now. But the people on the lower end of the spectrum will now be shut out of content. Is that healthy for the game?
If they want the 100k dps to go to 75k dps, I am just trying to suggest a way to do it with out the 20k dps falling to 15k. Can you think of a better way?
And is 75k and 20k dps on the "same level" to you?
Again I don't want any nerfs, but Zos does. I am just suggesting a way that minimizes the impact on lower end players. So come up with a solution that is better than mine.Eso suffers from massive amounts of bad players, more than any other game, and that is partially the fault of the game itself, because there aren't many information to access in game, i learned about animation cancelling randomly, they could have made a quest, and call it like training the troops, and there could have been a voice acted npc talking about how you can use your abilities and how to cancel animations or weave, just an idea out of my head.
This would solve quite a few things already, then again some players are beyond saving.
"Did you know you can swing your weapon without moving your hands? Here, let me show you how." Said the quest giver. (Yes, very immersive.)
Personally what I like most about Skyrim was how no one did any animations when in combat. I mean in ESO why have animations at all, we can just all stand around still having staring contests at bosses, that will save money on development. What I liked best when doing heroic Lich King was how our raid group hardly showed any animations at all. That is what made Wow great! /sarcasmThe point is to make a game that people join and enjoy for prolonged periods of time, so they can become good players, to do that you need to make information easily accessible, and encourage people to actually become better, otherwise you will have a game where people play for a few months to some years and then leave.
Animation cancelling is a technical glitch that the developers just did not care to correct. They did not fix it for the same reason they don't fix HRC, because it actually needs effort on their part. It's easier for them to say "sure, ok" then to actually make the game better.
It looks bad in game.
It feels like an exploit.
It's not intuitive.
And if your computer is not quick enough, it is impossible.
If high end players want to use it, fine. But if high end payers using it creates a reason for Zos to nerf common player dps who don't use it, that is a problem.
High end players use a lot of other methods to keep their dps high. (Bar swapping, etc.) A skill gap is not going to disappear because of animation cancelling going away.
But again it does not have to. Please, come up with a solution that fills Zos's "nerf high end player dps" priorities without stopping common players from doing content.
So you are not really looking for a solution, you are looking for a dream. Iv'e already given you a solution that is much better than nerfing the high end.
How to reduce the top tier damage without doing anything to the low end? You make the game uninteresting by removing anything that can give you an edge in battle, so out with animation cancelling, out with item sets, out with personal choice, you make it so spamming a single ability does equal damage compared to having a full fledged out rotation, remove synergies, remove off balance, remove dodge,remove block, you remove any incentive to get better at the game, and you rebalance all content based on the current status of the game.
Or you cap the damage, which is also a really bad solution, and quite frankly i don't know how they would do it.
What you don't like the game anymore now because it has absolutely 0 depth? Well this is what you asked for, you just didn't realize it.
The reduce the high end leads only to *** answers, because if you nerf damage you just nerf it for everyone, but the high end still does much more than the low end, so the only way to make things more equal, is to remove anything that gives you an edge in battle, and with that you killed the game so good job.
Is this the game you want? Fine, i will not be a part in it, when there are much better games.
You do not understand the reason why nerfs keep happening, which is why you seemingly put the fault on the players that are doing 100k damage, that is only a symptom iv'e already said what the reason is in previous posts i made, or at least a good majority of it, the fault basically boils down to the devs themselves.
You also said the usual bs about how animation cancelling is seemingly IMPOSSIBLE with a bad computer, dude, i can use animation cancelling with 300 ping, just the usual stuff you see on the forums honestly, people that understand frankly nothing talk about things that they don;t really understand.
Maybe some personal responsibility would be of use here, if you have a really bad connection than maybe mmos aren't for you, should everyone else lose because you can't keep up? I have a couple of ideas, one of them is to get better internet, if you can't than maybe you have to reevaluate your priorities, because it's most likely because you cannot afford it, and having high latency in a mmo is the last of your worries, if it is because you live in a town with really bad internet, well, life isn't fair and it doesn't fall on other people to lose out because of it, there are many ways of getting better internet, it's not necessarily fiber optics, and again, when you say things like this, you are not putting the fault where you should, performance has always been a problem in this game.
Show me a 17-19k light attack weaving DPS, on a magsorc dual pet lightning build video.
17-19k is a downright ignoble amount of DPS, considering every other class flavoured ability usually does 4-5k DPS.
Now, some builds and playstyles have been good with certain classes for many years but such huge LA DPS makes them terrible. Certain weapons, like lightning staff, just won't deliver as much (and FAR from as easy) as a fire weapon. On a class that has half its build based on lightning, this is bad.Edited by Vahrokh on October 21, 2019 4:28PMVaerah, Dark Elf Magicka Sorceress
Trials addict, soloer extraordinaire!
Here are my Elder Scrolls Online videos
Here is the Sorcerer Helper addon I have updated to work on current ESO0 -
khajiitNPC✭✭✭✭✭Shrugs. I guess. Ya’ll some babies. Khajiit thinks you need some fresh air and need to log into Irl.0
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LiquidPony✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭LiquidPony wrote: »josh.lackey_ESO wrote: »
Do you honestly think most people use animation canceling? Most players don’t know what it is.
It’s not a mechanic that is widely known nor is it a mechanic that people flock to eso for. No one is looking back at older elder scrolls games fondly because of animation cancelling. And no one is playing wow classic because they did animation canceling better.
You take out animation canceling and then adjust (upwards) the damage the actual attacks do.
People who are doing tremendous dps use it, that is why they do tremendous dps. The rest of the players don’t.
Most players use it without even realizing it, sure they may not use it to the degree of very good players but that's beside the point.
The point is that people that ask for the removal of ac, don't have any clue what they are asking for.
Honestly, at this point i want the game to become better but i don;t have much hope for it, so for all i care fine get your animation cancelling removed, and play this game by yourself and maybe 10 people in the next few years.
Next big mmo that comes out and doesn't actually disappoint and eso is *** over, if they keep their promises on archeage and wow becomes better, you can kiss this game goodbye, because most don't play eso because it's a good mmo, they play it because there is no other good alternative.
Hell iv'e already left, i play wow, the bfa expansion by the way, this is just how bad eso is, i would prefer playing a slightly upgraded bfa rather than eso how *** it is.
As it currently stands this game is a disgrace to the elder scrolls franchise.
At the moment this game is in the top 3 because it satisfies people that want fast combat that is similar to action combat in some ways, but wanna bet that if bdo didn't have as much of a p2w grind, and more and better pve content or if gw2 had some actual progression this game wouldn't be in the top 3, if they keep their promises on archeage, that game might actually take over in the next few years, granted, that is if eso doesn't actually fix the core problems.
Did you go back to wow because they do animation cancelling better then eso? Are all spells in Warcraft instant cast now? By the way, is global cool down still a thing in wow?
I think you commented a bit too early because i finished my thought on that, and it's quite frankly a really stupid point.
The games are fundamentally different and that is lazy thinking, and you know that, but you are not here to provide facts, you are here to make a point about how animation cancelling is bad for some reasons and you do not even understand the consequences of removing it from the game.
Honestly before this patch I did not care about animation cancelling. Doing over the top dps is/was not a priority for me. And for the people who liked it, good for them.
But these nerfs were targeted at the high end dps and they (Zos) did so without care for how it effects everyone else.
So what would be a way to tap down high end dps without effecting the common player? The obvious way, I feel, is animation cancelling. It is a technique utilized mostly be high end players.
If you can think of a different way to tone down high end dps WITHOUT effecting the dps of the common player, please share. I don’t care if animation canceling stays (although the concept of it does bother me) but if you have a better idea I am willing to hear and accept it.
Your premise is wrong to begin with, you want to bring down the top to the bottom? So basically what you are saying is *** all the people that actually put effort into learning things, this is why your premise is wrong to begin with.
This is not my premise. I don't want any nerfs at all. Zos has stated these changes (nerfs) are aimed at the endgame players.
They said so very bluntly.
They also said they don't care about how the changes effect people who log in just to "kill dragons".
Which they also said very bluntly.
I think this is stupid to punish common players for other people having "too high" of dps.
The solution is not to bring good players to the level of bad players, that will just leave you with a game that end game player will not want to play, because their effort is meaningless, the solution is to create a game that encourages people to become better, at the moment this game does not do that, hence why there are so few end game guilds that actually do stuff.
With these patch changes people doing super high dps will still be doing all the stuff they are doing now. But the people on the lower end of the spectrum will now be shut out of content. Is that healthy for the game?
If they want the 100k dps to go to 75k dps, I am just trying to suggest a way to do it with out the 20k dps falling to 15k. Can you think of a better way?
And is 75k and 20k dps on the "same level" to you?
Again I don't want any nerfs, but Zos does. I am just suggesting a way that minimizes the impact on lower end players. So come up with a solution that is better than mine.Eso suffers from massive amounts of bad players, more than any other game, and that is partially the fault of the game itself, because there aren't many information to access in game, i learned about animation cancelling randomly, they could have made a quest, and call it like training the troops, and there could have been a voice acted npc talking about how you can use your abilities and how to cancel animations or weave, just an idea out of my head.
This would solve quite a few things already, then again some players are beyond saving.
"Did you know you can swing your weapon without moving your hands? Here, let me show you how." Said the quest giver. (Yes, very immersive.)
Personally what I like most about Skyrim was how no one did any animations when in combat. I mean in ESO why have animations at all, we can just all stand around still having staring contests at bosses, that will save money on development. What I liked best when doing heroic Lich King was how our raid group hardly showed any animations at all. That is what made Wow great! /sarcasmThe point is to make a game that people join and enjoy for prolonged periods of time, so they can become good players, to do that you need to make information easily accessible, and encourage people to actually become better, otherwise you will have a game where people play for a few months to some years and then leave.
Animation cancelling is a technical glitch that the developers just did not care to correct. They did not fix it for the same reason they don't fix HRC, because it actually needs effort on their part. It's easier for them to say "sure, ok" then to actually make the game better.
It looks bad in game.
It feels like an exploit.
It's not intuitive.
And if your computer is not quick enough, it is impossible.
If high end players want to use it, fine. But if high end payers using it creates a reason for Zos to nerf common player dps who don't use it, that is a problem.
High end players use a lot of other methods to keep their dps high. (Bar swapping, etc.) A skill gap is not going to disappear because of animation cancelling going away.
But again it does not have to. Please, come up with a solution that fills Zos's "nerf high end player dps" priorities without stopping common players from doing content.
So you are not really looking for a solution, you are looking for a dream. Iv'e already given you a solution that is much better than nerfing the high end.
How to reduce the top tier damage without doing anything to the low end? You make the game uninteresting by removing anything that can give you an edge in battle, so out with animation cancelling, out with item sets, out with personal choice, you make it so spamming a single ability does equal damage compared to having a full fledged out rotation, remove synergies, remove off balance, remove dodge,remove block, you remove any incentive to get better at the game, and you rebalance all content based on the current status of the game.
Or you cap the damage, which is also a really bad solution, and quite frankly i don't know how they would do it.
What you don't like the game anymore now because it has absolutely 0 depth? Well this is what you asked for, you just didn't realize it.
The reduce the high end leads only to *** answers, because if you nerf damage you just nerf it for everyone, but the high end still does much more than the low end, so the only way to make things more equal, is to remove anything that gives you an edge in battle, and with that you killed the game so good job.
Is this the game you want? Fine, i will not be a part in it, when there are much better games.
You do not understand the reason why nerfs keep happening, which is why you seemingly put the fault on the players that are doing 100k damage, that is only a symptom iv'e already said what the reason is in previous posts i made, or at least a good majority of it, the fault basically boils down to the devs themselves.
You also said the usual bs about how animation cancelling is seemingly IMPOSSIBLE with a bad computer, dude, i can use animation cancelling with 300 ping, just the usual stuff you see on the forums honestly, people that understand frankly nothing talk about things that they don;t really understand.
Maybe some personal responsibility would be of use here, if you have a really bad connection than maybe mmos aren't for you, should everyone else lose because you can't keep up? I have a couple of ideas, one of them is to get better internet, if you can't than maybe you have to reevaluate your priorities, because it's most likely because you cannot afford it, and having high latency in a mmo is the last of your worries, if it is because you live in a town with really bad internet, well, life isn't fair and it doesn't fall on other people to lose out because of it, there are many ways of getting better internet, it's not necessarily fiber optics, and again, when you say things like this, you are not putting the fault where you should, performance has always been a problem in this game.
First, I like how you keep assuming my computer/internet connects are bad. It's very entertaining seeing you make wrong assumptions about people.
Second, nerfing the high end players is not my idea. (How hard is that to understand?) It is Zos stated goal. 100k dps players don't bother me, but it bothers Zos so that is why they are nerfing the dps. But they are doing it so lazily and without thought to how it effects everyone and that does bother me. This dot/aoe change is so lazy it feels like something they thought of on a morning commute, not three months of planning. And it is being implemented by a team that actually does not care how it effects the common player.
Your apparent "solution" ("the solution is to create a game that encourages people to become better") is basically "get good" which is laughable. Getting good is not some radical solution they can implement in game (not with their "blind fold and throw a dart" combat changes every three months). They tried with the spell suggestions, but there is an average dps and that average dps will now be substantially lower.
Which means overall the pool for players doing dps dependent content will go down as well. And that will frustrate the higher end players who will find less players for group content.
Apparently you are fine with fewer people doing group content? Because with lower dps fewer people will be doing dungeons and trials. Personally I am not, I want as many people to do dungeons and vet content as possible because that is how we get more of that content. but if you push the lower end dps out of it, that is what you will get.
Players who are struggling now are not going to get better, they are just going to see what ever progress they made wiped out and have no content to do. Players on the edge of the bubble will be left behind.
And all I did was try to think of something, ANYTHING , that will lower top end dps without punishing everyone else. To keep that pool of players doing the content at least somewhat stable. Something actually in game, that is programmable. Not some vague "maybe we can highlight that weird game developer approved glitch that no other MMO would implement in a game".
And lastly not everyone has a high end internet connection. Not everyone has the latest computer and not everyone has the best computer equipment. I know this because I was in several different trial groups across many guilds until Update 23 basically wiped them out. I have seen all players from high end to low, few people are investing a ton of real world money to play an MMO. Not everyone has unlimited budgets or live in areas where the internet is any good.
Me, I have an expensive computer and a great internet connection (I need them for work as I have large files I need to create on and send), but I know most players are not like me.
It is literally not possible to remove "animation cancelling" from ESO without completely rebuilding every bit of combat and content in the game.
You want to be able to block when an attack's coming your way, without waiting for a second or more for an animation to finish, right?
You want to be able to swap to your S&B bar when a heavy attack's incoming, without waiting a second or more for an animation to finish, right?
Most skills are instant cast. Instant means instant, it does not mean "after a 1-second animation".
Animation cancelling will be a part of ESO combat until they shut the servers down. Asking for its removal is a pointless exercise, mostly done by people who don't actually understand what they're asking for.
Finally! Someone actually has an actual argument for keeping animation cancelling that is not “I need to protect my dps.” Thank you!
There is actually some fair points and not something I considered.
My counter proposal would be that defensive actions (block, roll, and interrupt) can still happen instantly. But visually the attack animation would still continue. (Finally changing to the defense animation if it is still in effect.)
This way defensive abilities can still be instantly cast.
Bar swaps would be instant as well with the same restrictions.
Anyway, the details can change. But the concept of firing off additional attacks through animation cancelling should be looked at, if high dps is truly an issue for Zos.
So you want to remove animation cancelling ... But we're gonna keep block cancelling, Dodge cancelling, bash cancelling, and swap cancelling ...
So, nothing changes.
My point exactly.Edited by LiquidPony on October 21, 2019 11:04PM0 -
BlueRaven✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭LiquidPony wrote: »LiquidPony wrote: »josh.lackey_ESO wrote: »
Do you honestly think most people use animation canceling? Most players don’t know what it is.
It’s not a mechanic that is widely known nor is it a mechanic that people flock to eso for. No one is looking back at older elder scrolls games fondly because of animation cancelling. And no one is playing wow classic because they did animation canceling better.
You take out animation canceling and then adjust (upwards) the damage the actual attacks do.
People who are doing tremendous dps use it, that is why they do tremendous dps. The rest of the players don’t.
Most players use it without even realizing it, sure they may not use it to the degree of very good players but that's beside the point.
The point is that people that ask for the removal of ac, don't have any clue what they are asking for.
Honestly, at this point i want the game to become better but i don;t have much hope for it, so for all i care fine get your animation cancelling removed, and play this game by yourself and maybe 10 people in the next few years.
Next big mmo that comes out and doesn't actually disappoint and eso is *** over, if they keep their promises on archeage and wow becomes better, you can kiss this game goodbye, because most don't play eso because it's a good mmo, they play it because there is no other good alternative.
Hell iv'e already left, i play wow, the bfa expansion by the way, this is just how bad eso is, i would prefer playing a slightly upgraded bfa rather than eso how *** it is.
As it currently stands this game is a disgrace to the elder scrolls franchise.
At the moment this game is in the top 3 because it satisfies people that want fast combat that is similar to action combat in some ways, but wanna bet that if bdo didn't have as much of a p2w grind, and more and better pve content or if gw2 had some actual progression this game wouldn't be in the top 3, if they keep their promises on archeage, that game might actually take over in the next few years, granted, that is if eso doesn't actually fix the core problems.
Did you go back to wow because they do animation cancelling better then eso? Are all spells in Warcraft instant cast now? By the way, is global cool down still a thing in wow?
I think you commented a bit too early because i finished my thought on that, and it's quite frankly a really stupid point.
The games are fundamentally different and that is lazy thinking, and you know that, but you are not here to provide facts, you are here to make a point about how animation cancelling is bad for some reasons and you do not even understand the consequences of removing it from the game.
Honestly before this patch I did not care about animation cancelling. Doing over the top dps is/was not a priority for me. And for the people who liked it, good for them.
But these nerfs were targeted at the high end dps and they (Zos) did so without care for how it effects everyone else.
So what would be a way to tap down high end dps without effecting the common player? The obvious way, I feel, is animation cancelling. It is a technique utilized mostly be high end players.
If you can think of a different way to tone down high end dps WITHOUT effecting the dps of the common player, please share. I don’t care if animation canceling stays (although the concept of it does bother me) but if you have a better idea I am willing to hear and accept it.
Your premise is wrong to begin with, you want to bring down the top to the bottom? So basically what you are saying is *** all the people that actually put effort into learning things, this is why your premise is wrong to begin with.
This is not my premise. I don't want any nerfs at all. Zos has stated these changes (nerfs) are aimed at the endgame players.
They said so very bluntly.
They also said they don't care about how the changes effect people who log in just to "kill dragons".
Which they also said very bluntly.
I think this is stupid to punish common players for other people having "too high" of dps.
The solution is not to bring good players to the level of bad players, that will just leave you with a game that end game player will not want to play, because their effort is meaningless, the solution is to create a game that encourages people to become better, at the moment this game does not do that, hence why there are so few end game guilds that actually do stuff.
With these patch changes people doing super high dps will still be doing all the stuff they are doing now. But the people on the lower end of the spectrum will now be shut out of content. Is that healthy for the game?
If they want the 100k dps to go to 75k dps, I am just trying to suggest a way to do it with out the 20k dps falling to 15k. Can you think of a better way?
And is 75k and 20k dps on the "same level" to you?
Again I don't want any nerfs, but Zos does. I am just suggesting a way that minimizes the impact on lower end players. So come up with a solution that is better than mine.Eso suffers from massive amounts of bad players, more than any other game, and that is partially the fault of the game itself, because there aren't many information to access in game, i learned about animation cancelling randomly, they could have made a quest, and call it like training the troops, and there could have been a voice acted npc talking about how you can use your abilities and how to cancel animations or weave, just an idea out of my head.
This would solve quite a few things already, then again some players are beyond saving.
"Did you know you can swing your weapon without moving your hands? Here, let me show you how." Said the quest giver. (Yes, very immersive.)
Personally what I like most about Skyrim was how no one did any animations when in combat. I mean in ESO why have animations at all, we can just all stand around still having staring contests at bosses, that will save money on development. What I liked best when doing heroic Lich King was how our raid group hardly showed any animations at all. That is what made Wow great! /sarcasmThe point is to make a game that people join and enjoy for prolonged periods of time, so they can become good players, to do that you need to make information easily accessible, and encourage people to actually become better, otherwise you will have a game where people play for a few months to some years and then leave.
Animation cancelling is a technical glitch that the developers just did not care to correct. They did not fix it for the same reason they don't fix HRC, because it actually needs effort on their part. It's easier for them to say "sure, ok" then to actually make the game better.
It looks bad in game.
It feels like an exploit.
It's not intuitive.
And if your computer is not quick enough, it is impossible.
If high end players want to use it, fine. But if high end payers using it creates a reason for Zos to nerf common player dps who don't use it, that is a problem.
High end players use a lot of other methods to keep their dps high. (Bar swapping, etc.) A skill gap is not going to disappear because of animation cancelling going away.
But again it does not have to. Please, come up with a solution that fills Zos's "nerf high end player dps" priorities without stopping common players from doing content.
So you are not really looking for a solution, you are looking for a dream. Iv'e already given you a solution that is much better than nerfing the high end.
How to reduce the top tier damage without doing anything to the low end? You make the game uninteresting by removing anything that can give you an edge in battle, so out with animation cancelling, out with item sets, out with personal choice, you make it so spamming a single ability does equal damage compared to having a full fledged out rotation, remove synergies, remove off balance, remove dodge,remove block, you remove any incentive to get better at the game, and you rebalance all content based on the current status of the game.
Or you cap the damage, which is also a really bad solution, and quite frankly i don't know how they would do it.
What you don't like the game anymore now because it has absolutely 0 depth? Well this is what you asked for, you just didn't realize it.
The reduce the high end leads only to *** answers, because if you nerf damage you just nerf it for everyone, but the high end still does much more than the low end, so the only way to make things more equal, is to remove anything that gives you an edge in battle, and with that you killed the game so good job.
Is this the game you want? Fine, i will not be a part in it, when there are much better games.
You do not understand the reason why nerfs keep happening, which is why you seemingly put the fault on the players that are doing 100k damage, that is only a symptom iv'e already said what the reason is in previous posts i made, or at least a good majority of it, the fault basically boils down to the devs themselves.
You also said the usual bs about how animation cancelling is seemingly IMPOSSIBLE with a bad computer, dude, i can use animation cancelling with 300 ping, just the usual stuff you see on the forums honestly, people that understand frankly nothing talk about things that they don;t really understand.
Maybe some personal responsibility would be of use here, if you have a really bad connection than maybe mmos aren't for you, should everyone else lose because you can't keep up? I have a couple of ideas, one of them is to get better internet, if you can't than maybe you have to reevaluate your priorities, because it's most likely because you cannot afford it, and having high latency in a mmo is the last of your worries, if it is because you live in a town with really bad internet, well, life isn't fair and it doesn't fall on other people to lose out because of it, there are many ways of getting better internet, it's not necessarily fiber optics, and again, when you say things like this, you are not putting the fault where you should, performance has always been a problem in this game.
First, I like how you keep assuming my computer/internet connects are bad. It's very entertaining seeing you make wrong assumptions about people.
Second, nerfing the high end players is not my idea. (How hard is that to understand?) It is Zos stated goal. 100k dps players don't bother me, but it bothers Zos so that is why they are nerfing the dps. But they are doing it so lazily and without thought to how it effects everyone and that does bother me. This dot/aoe change is so lazy it feels like something they thought of on a morning commute, not three months of planning. And it is being implemented by a team that actually does not care how it effects the common player.
Your apparent "solution" ("the solution is to create a game that encourages people to become better") is basically "get good" which is laughable. Getting good is not some radical solution they can implement in game (not with their "blind fold and throw a dart" combat changes every three months). They tried with the spell suggestions, but there is an average dps and that average dps will now be substantially lower.
Which means overall the pool for players doing dps dependent content will go down as well. And that will frustrate the higher end players who will find less players for group content.
Apparently you are fine with fewer people doing group content? Because with lower dps fewer people will be doing dungeons and trials. Personally I am not, I want as many people to do dungeons and vet content as possible because that is how we get more of that content. but if you push the lower end dps out of it, that is what you will get.
Players who are struggling now are not going to get better, they are just going to see what ever progress they made wiped out and have no content to do. Players on the edge of the bubble will be left behind.
And all I did was try to think of something, ANYTHING , that will lower top end dps without punishing everyone else. To keep that pool of players doing the content at least somewhat stable. Something actually in game, that is programmable. Not some vague "maybe we can highlight that weird game developer approved glitch that no other MMO would implement in a game".
And lastly not everyone has a high end internet connection. Not everyone has the latest computer and not everyone has the best computer equipment. I know this because I was in several different trial groups across many guilds until Update 23 basically wiped them out. I have seen all players from high end to low, few people are investing a ton of real world money to play an MMO. Not everyone has unlimited budgets or live in areas where the internet is any good.
Me, I have an expensive computer and a great internet connection (I need them for work as I have large files I need to create on and send), but I know most players are not like me.
It is literally not possible to remove "animation cancelling" from ESO without completely rebuilding every bit of combat and content in the game.
You want to be able to block when an attack's coming your way, without waiting for a second or more for an animation to finish, right?
You want to be able to swap to your S&B bar when a heavy attack's incoming, without waiting a second or more for an animation to finish, right?
Most skills are instant cast. Instant means instant, it does not mean "after a 1-second animation".
Animation cancelling will be a part of ESO combat until they shut the servers down. Asking for its removal is a pointless exercise, mostly done by people who don't actually understand what they're asking for.
Finally! Someone actually has an actual argument for keeping animation cancelling that is not “I need to protect my dps.” Thank you!
There is actually some fair points and not something I considered.
My counter proposal would be that defensive actions (block, roll, and interrupt) can still happen instantly. But visually the attack animation would still continue. (Finally changing to the defense animation if it is still in effect.)
This way defensive abilities can still be instantly cast.
Bar swaps would be instant as well with the same restrictions.
Anyway, the details can change. But the concept of firing off additional attacks through animation cancelling should be looked at, if high dps is truly an issue for Zos.
So you want to remove animation cancelling ... But we're gonna keep block cancelling, Dodge cancelling, bash cancelling, and swap cancelling ...
So, nothing changes.
My point exactly.
I don't think I explained myself very well. But that's ok because....halucin0g3n wrote: »relentless_turnip wrote: »Combat would be pretty Terrible without animation cancelling. How would you block or dodge? You unterupt a skills animation to do something a lot more important. Can you imagine how plagued the forums be with claims of basic mechanics being broken...
The alternative is that your skill is cancelled, meaning you didn't get the heal you needed or the stun etc...
Honestly I'm not sure a lot of people understand why animation cancelling exists. You can still only do one skill per second. I really don't understand why there is this on going debate on it.
Weaving is a bit different but then it isn't hard to learn. Learning combos/rotations is much trickier then pressing LA, skill and block.
Yes, make it skill canceling, not animation canceling. If skill gets canceled so does the animation. If you just cancel the animation but you do the damage, you will still have insane DPS that ZOS is trying to butcher, not me or anyone else.
This is a much better idea.0 -
JinMori✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭josh.lackey_ESO wrote: »
Do you honestly think most people use animation canceling? Most players don’t know what it is.
It’s not a mechanic that is widely known nor is it a mechanic that people flock to eso for. No one is looking back at older elder scrolls games fondly because of animation cancelling. And no one is playing wow classic because they did animation canceling better.
You take out animation canceling and then adjust (upwards) the damage the actual attacks do.
People who are doing tremendous dps use it, that is why they do tremendous dps. The rest of the players don’t.
Most players use it without even realizing it, sure they may not use it to the degree of very good players but that's beside the point.
The point is that people that ask for the removal of ac, don't have any clue what they are asking for.
Honestly, at this point i want the game to become better but i don;t have much hope for it, so for all i care fine get your animation cancelling removed, and play this game by yourself and maybe 10 people in the next few years.
Next big mmo that comes out and doesn't actually disappoint and eso is *** over, if they keep their promises on archeage and wow becomes better, you can kiss this game goodbye, because most don't play eso because it's a good mmo, they play it because there is no other good alternative.
Hell iv'e already left, i play wow, the bfa expansion by the way, this is just how bad eso is, i would prefer playing a slightly upgraded bfa rather than eso how *** it is.
As it currently stands this game is a disgrace to the elder scrolls franchise.
At the moment this game is in the top 3 because it satisfies people that want fast combat that is similar to action combat in some ways, but wanna bet that if bdo didn't have as much of a p2w grind, and more and better pve content or if gw2 had some actual progression this game wouldn't be in the top 3, if they keep their promises on archeage, that game might actually take over in the next few years, granted, that is if eso doesn't actually fix the core problems.
Did you go back to wow because they do animation cancelling better then eso? Are all spells in Warcraft instant cast now? By the way, is global cool down still a thing in wow?
I think you commented a bit too early because i finished my thought on that, and it's quite frankly a really stupid point.
The games are fundamentally different and that is lazy thinking, and you know that, but you are not here to provide facts, you are here to make a point about how animation cancelling is bad for some reasons and you do not even understand the consequences of removing it from the game.
Honestly before this patch I did not care about animation cancelling. Doing over the top dps is/was not a priority for me. And for the people who liked it, good for them.
But these nerfs were targeted at the high end dps and they (Zos) did so without care for how it effects everyone else.
So what would be a way to tap down high end dps without effecting the common player? The obvious way, I feel, is animation cancelling. It is a technique utilized mostly be high end players.
If you can think of a different way to tone down high end dps WITHOUT effecting the dps of the common player, please share. I don’t care if animation canceling stays (although the concept of it does bother me) but if you have a better idea I am willing to hear and accept it.
Your premise is wrong to begin with, you want to bring down the top to the bottom? So basically what you are saying is *** all the people that actually put effort into learning things, this is why your premise is wrong to begin with.
This is not my premise. I don't want any nerfs at all. Zos has stated these changes (nerfs) are aimed at the endgame players.
They said so very bluntly.
They also said they don't care about how the changes effect people who log in just to "kill dragons".
Which they also said very bluntly.
I think this is stupid to punish common players for other people having "too high" of dps.
The solution is not to bring good players to the level of bad players, that will just leave you with a game that end game player will not want to play, because their effort is meaningless, the solution is to create a game that encourages people to become better, at the moment this game does not do that, hence why there are so few end game guilds that actually do stuff.
With these patch changes people doing super high dps will still be doing all the stuff they are doing now. But the people on the lower end of the spectrum will now be shut out of content. Is that healthy for the game?
If they want the 100k dps to go to 75k dps, I am just trying to suggest a way to do it with out the 20k dps falling to 15k. Can you think of a better way?
And is 75k and 20k dps on the "same level" to you?
Again I don't want any nerfs, but Zos does. I am just suggesting a way that minimizes the impact on lower end players. So come up with a solution that is better than mine.Eso suffers from massive amounts of bad players, more than any other game, and that is partially the fault of the game itself, because there aren't many information to access in game, i learned about animation cancelling randomly, they could have made a quest, and call it like training the troops, and there could have been a voice acted npc talking about how you can use your abilities and how to cancel animations or weave, just an idea out of my head.
This would solve quite a few things already, then again some players are beyond saving.
"Did you know you can swing your weapon without moving your hands? Here, let me show you how." Said the quest giver. (Yes, very immersive.)
Personally what I like most about Skyrim was how no one did any animations when in combat. I mean in ESO why have animations at all, we can just all stand around still having staring contests at bosses, that will save money on development. What I liked best when doing heroic Lich King was how our raid group hardly showed any animations at all. That is what made Wow great! /sarcasmThe point is to make a game that people join and enjoy for prolonged periods of time, so they can become good players, to do that you need to make information easily accessible, and encourage people to actually become better, otherwise you will have a game where people play for a few months to some years and then leave.
Animation cancelling is a technical glitch that the developers just did not care to correct. They did not fix it for the same reason they don't fix HRC, because it actually needs effort on their part. It's easier for them to say "sure, ok" then to actually make the game better.
It looks bad in game.
It feels like an exploit.
It's not intuitive.
And if your computer is not quick enough, it is impossible.
If high end players want to use it, fine. But if high end payers using it creates a reason for Zos to nerf common player dps who don't use it, that is a problem.
High end players use a lot of other methods to keep their dps high. (Bar swapping, etc.) A skill gap is not going to disappear because of animation cancelling going away.
But again it does not have to. Please, come up with a solution that fills Zos's "nerf high end player dps" priorities without stopping common players from doing content.
So you are not really looking for a solution, you are looking for a dream. Iv'e already given you a solution that is much better than nerfing the high end.
How to reduce the top tier damage without doing anything to the low end? You make the game uninteresting by removing anything that can give you an edge in battle, so out with animation cancelling, out with item sets, out with personal choice, you make it so spamming a single ability does equal damage compared to having a full fledged out rotation, remove synergies, remove off balance, remove dodge,remove block, you remove any incentive to get better at the game, and you rebalance all content based on the current status of the game.
Or you cap the damage, which is also a really bad solution, and quite frankly i don't know how they would do it.
What you don't like the game anymore now because it has absolutely 0 depth? Well this is what you asked for, you just didn't realize it.
The reduce the high end leads only to *** answers, because if you nerf damage you just nerf it for everyone, but the high end still does much more than the low end, so the only way to make things more equal, is to remove anything that gives you an edge in battle, and with that you killed the game so good job.
Is this the game you want? Fine, i will not be a part in it, when there are much better games.
You do not understand the reason why nerfs keep happening, which is why you seemingly put the fault on the players that are doing 100k damage, that is only a symptom iv'e already said what the reason is in previous posts i made, or at least a good majority of it, the fault basically boils down to the devs themselves.
You also said the usual bs about how animation cancelling is seemingly IMPOSSIBLE with a bad computer, dude, i can use animation cancelling with 300 ping, just the usual stuff you see on the forums honestly, people that understand frankly nothing talk about things that they don;t really understand.
Maybe some personal responsibility would be of use here, if you have a really bad connection than maybe mmos aren't for you, should everyone else lose because you can't keep up? I have a couple of ideas, one of them is to get better internet, if you can't than maybe you have to reevaluate your priorities, because it's most likely because you cannot afford it, and having high latency in a mmo is the last of your worries, if it is because you live in a town with really bad internet, well, life isn't fair and it doesn't fall on other people to lose out because of it, there are many ways of getting better internet, it's not necessarily fiber optics, and again, when you say things like this, you are not putting the fault where you should, performance has always been a problem in this game.
Show me a 17-19k light attack weaving DPS, on a magsorc dual pet lightning build video.
17-19k is a downright ignoble amount of DPS, considering every other class flavoured ability usually does 4-5k DPS.
Now, some builds and playstyles have been good with certain classes for many years but such huge LA DPS makes them terrible. Certain weapons, like lightning staff, just won't deliver as much (and FAR from as easy) as a fire weapon. On a class that has half its build based on lightning, this is bad.
? I don't really understand what your point is.0 -
Gnortranermara✭✭✭✭✭
✭Hey guess what?
It went live.
And the only reason anybody is even playing is to farm OP food that'll be nerfed within months.Edited by Gnortranermara on October 28, 2019 2:00AM0 -
ZonasArch✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭SidewalkChalk5 wrote: »Hey guess what?
It went live.
And the only reason anybody is even playing is to farm OP food that'll be nerfed within months.
It will be nerfed, it's pretty obvious. I hope we wrong, but the chance is so slim...
That said, I'm only farming to sell the recipes to rich and hasty and lazy people. And the dumb dumbs that think they'll be able to flip it for a profit...
These recipes drop so often they'll be worthless in a week and when the Nerf comes, they'll be absolute vendor trash. (Over exaggerating the last bit, of course)
Still, cycling back to topic, I like the patch. A bit annoying with sustain still, but damage is Def not as bad as it looked with 5.2.0. my tooltips are back to reasonable instead of OP, but still higher than before the absurd DoT-is-Life patch. So my damage is fine, trials and dungeons being done as before and all that.
BUT THE WORLD ENDED! OH NO! OH EM GEE! MY DPS! MY PARSE! MY FAKE SKILLZZZ! I'LL LEAVE THIS GAME IF THIS UPDATE GOES LIVE! GAAAAAHHHH!
I mean... This is just hilarious. I love these forums histrionics. I absolutely love the laughs it brings.1
