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https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/668104/
• PC/Mac: NA and EU megaservers for maintenance – November 1, 4:00AM EDT (8:00 UTC) - 9:00AM EDT (13:00 UTC)
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/668104/
This patch can’t go live. For the love of this game do not let this go live as is
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MehrunesFlagon✭✭✭✭✭
✭I started this a several other posts and each one shows their are players that care about this game enough to be vocal don’t discount the players that are not on the forums that could be for multiple reasons. We can’t assume “casual players don’t really care every time I’m on my tank pugging dungeons it’s to help other players and the things I hear and compliments on my tanking ability shows even casual players want to do endgame just no one is taking the time to be the teacher. My one guild I’m very active in I’ve started role classes teaching people the fundamentals to performing the role they choose. Usually my messengers blow up for individual help I’m only one player if more players ban together and teach others instead of dismiss them assuming they aren’t as serious as us this game may become fun again.
A far as that is concerned I do run with those that do 90k ish,but still I run with those that do quite a bit lower,and to be quite honest I would call most of them semi casual.Hell some are just casual about the amount of time they play,but have elite abilities.That said,I see these nerfs always effecting the lower end more than the higher end,which they of course are 100% aware of btw.1 -
NBrookus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Veinblood1965 wrote: »I actually read this whole thread and came away with this question. Has ZOS clearly and in depth stated why they are making these changes?
They are standardizing each class to have a heal, tank, and damage skill line.
They are going through armor sets to ensure they have an equivalent power level.
They are equalizing heals and damage across skill types.
And then they said they wanted to be sure we had class identity.
7 -
Vahrokh✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭
I represent what's possibly a good 70% of the whole sorcs playerbase. So what, they make some PvPer happier (I don't know why), they add 1 ability to stamsorc and sod off everyone else? And don't dare to "throw salt"?
I throw all the salt I want as long as my sub is still ticking.
Restaurants, theaters and cinemas would love a customer like you, that can be spat in face and he'd take it with a smile.
Vaerah, Dark Elf Magicka Sorceress
Trials addict, soloer extraordinaire!
Here are my Elder Scrolls Online videos
Here is the Sorcerer Helper addon I have updated to work on current ESO10 -
BlueRaven✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭josh.lackey_ESO wrote: »
Do you honestly think most people use animation canceling? Most players don’t know what it is.
It’s not a mechanic that is widely known nor is it a mechanic that people flock to eso for. No one is looking back at older elder scrolls games fondly because of animation cancelling. And no one is playing wow classic because they did animation canceling better.
You take out animation canceling and then adjust (upwards) the damage the actual attacks do.
People who are doing tremendous dps use it, that is why they do tremendous dps. The rest of the players don’t.9 -
JinMori✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭josh.lackey_ESO wrote: »
Do you honestly think most people use animation canceling? Most players don’t know what it is.
It’s not a mechanic that is widely known nor is it a mechanic that people flock to eso for. No one is looking back at older elder scrolls games fondly because of animation cancelling. And no one is playing wow classic because they did animation canceling better.
You take out animation canceling and then adjust (upwards) the damage the actual attacks do.
People who are doing tremendous dps use it, that is why they do tremendous dps. The rest of the players don’t.
Most players use it without even realizing it, sure they may not use it to the degree of very good players but that's beside the point.
The point is that people that ask for the removal of ac, don't have any clue what they are asking for.
Honestly, at this point i want the game to become better but i don;t have much hope for it, so for all i care fine get your animation cancelling removed, and play this game by yourself and maybe 10 people in the next few years.
Next big mmo that comes out and doesn't actually disappoint and eso is *** over, if they keep their promises on archeage and wow becomes better, you can kiss this game goodbye, because most don't play eso because it's a good mmo, they play it because there is no other good alternative.
Hell iv'e already left, i play wow, the bfa expansion by the way, this is just how bad eso is, i would prefer playing a slightly upgraded bfa rather than eso how *** it is.
As it currently stands this game is a disgrace to the elder scrolls franchise.
At the moment this game is in the top 3 because it satisfies people that want fast combat that is similar to action combat in some ways, but wanna bet that if bdo didn't have as much of a p2w grind, and more and better pve content or if gw2 had some actual progression this game wouldn't be in the top 3, if they keep their promises on archeage, that game might actually take over in the next few years, granted, that is if eso doesn't actually fix the core problems.
By the way, comparing wow combat to eso is kinda ridiculous, would you consider auto attack as animation cancelling? Well, when you use an ability the animation of the auto attack is cancelled......
Light attack and heavy is basically the equivalent of wow auto attack, while in wow you have more abilities to deal with eso takes a different approach.Edited by JinMori on October 16, 2019 9:18PM2 -
FrancisCrawford✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Joy_Division wrote: »This is the only game I have ever played where patches make it less enjoyable to play
I played Guild Wars for many years, LOTRO for many years, and GW2 for a while. In that time, I only had a few builds nerfed hard (e.g. when GW first had mobs step out of AoEs, or when it stopped giving infinite minions to necros). Here it happens every few months.2 -
sionIV✭✭✭✭✭One of the main issues with WoW was that the developers were out of touch with the playerbase. The "WE know what YOU want" mentality ruined the game. They had a very specific vision of where they wanted to take the game, and they did not care what the playerbase wanted. For a decade Blizzard said 'no' to classic servers, because THEY (the developers) didn't want to take the game in that direction. Once *** hit the fan in Legion/BFA they made a u-turn and created a few classic servers, and what happened? They blew up in popularity.
ESO has chosen a direction (Sustain nerfs, damage nerfs, etc) that they want to take the game in, and they don't care about the playerbase. It doesn't matter how much we complain, it won't change anything as long as their focus is on what they want instead of what the playerbase wants.
9 -
BlueRaven✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭josh.lackey_ESO wrote: »
Do you honestly think most people use animation canceling? Most players don’t know what it is.
It’s not a mechanic that is widely known nor is it a mechanic that people flock to eso for. No one is looking back at older elder scrolls games fondly because of animation cancelling. And no one is playing wow classic because they did animation canceling better.
You take out animation canceling and then adjust (upwards) the damage the actual attacks do.
People who are doing tremendous dps use it, that is why they do tremendous dps. The rest of the players don’t.
Most players use it without even realizing it, sure they may not use it to the degree of very good players but that's beside the point.
The point is that people that ask for the removal of ac, don't have any clue what they are asking for.
Honestly, at this point i want the game to become better but i don;t have much hope for it, so for all i care fine get your animation cancelling removed, and play this game by yourself and maybe 10 people in the next few years.
Next big mmo that comes out and doesn't actually disappoint and eso is *** over, if they keep their promises on archeage and wow becomes better, you can kiss this game goodbye, because most don't play eso because it's a good mmo, they play it because there is no other good alternative.
Hell iv'e already left, i play wow, the bfa expansion by the way, this is just how bad eso is, i would prefer playing a slightly upgraded bfa rather than eso how *** it is.
As it currently stands this game is a disgrace to the elder scrolls franchise.
At the moment this game is in the top 3 because it satisfies people that want fast combat that is similar to action combat in some ways, but wanna bet that if bdo didn't have as much of a p2w grind, and more and better pve content or if gw2 had some actual progression this game wouldn't be in the top 3, if they keep their promises on archeage, that game might actually take over in the next few years, granted, that is if eso doesn't actually fix the core problems.
Did you go back to wow because they do animation cancelling better then eso? Are all spells in Warcraft instant cast now? By the way, is global cool down still a thing in wow?0 -
FrancisCrawford✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭
Magicka sorcerers get Surge back, and a better heal. That's all I've seen. After years of magicka being mainly a pet class, I don't see any point to non-ultimate pets now except for heals/defense. (Phrased that way because the Matriarch can serve as a bit of a tank at times, if you're solo.)0 -
JinMori✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭josh.lackey_ESO wrote: »
Do you honestly think most people use animation canceling? Most players don’t know what it is.
It’s not a mechanic that is widely known nor is it a mechanic that people flock to eso for. No one is looking back at older elder scrolls games fondly because of animation cancelling. And no one is playing wow classic because they did animation canceling better.
You take out animation canceling and then adjust (upwards) the damage the actual attacks do.
People who are doing tremendous dps use it, that is why they do tremendous dps. The rest of the players don’t.
Most players use it without even realizing it, sure they may not use it to the degree of very good players but that's beside the point.
The point is that people that ask for the removal of ac, don't have any clue what they are asking for.
Honestly, at this point i want the game to become better but i don;t have much hope for it, so for all i care fine get your animation cancelling removed, and play this game by yourself and maybe 10 people in the next few years.
Next big mmo that comes out and doesn't actually disappoint and eso is *** over, if they keep their promises on archeage and wow becomes better, you can kiss this game goodbye, because most don't play eso because it's a good mmo, they play it because there is no other good alternative.
Hell iv'e already left, i play wow, the bfa expansion by the way, this is just how bad eso is, i would prefer playing a slightly upgraded bfa rather than eso how *** it is.
As it currently stands this game is a disgrace to the elder scrolls franchise.
At the moment this game is in the top 3 because it satisfies people that want fast combat that is similar to action combat in some ways, but wanna bet that if bdo didn't have as much of a p2w grind, and more and better pve content or if gw2 had some actual progression this game wouldn't be in the top 3, if they keep their promises on archeage, that game might actually take over in the next few years, granted, that is if eso doesn't actually fix the core problems.
Did you go back to wow because they do animation cancelling better then eso? Are all spells in Warcraft instant cast now? By the way, is global cool down still a thing in wow?
I think you commented a bit too early because i finished my thought on that, and it's quite frankly a really stupid point.
The games are fundamentally different and that is lazy thinking, and you know that, but you are not here to provide facts, you are here to make a point about how animation cancelling is bad for some reasons and you do not even understand the consequences of removing it from the game.
But fine, have it your way, it will further solidify for me just how trash this game has, and will become.Edited by JinMori on October 16, 2019 9:29PM0 -
BlueRaven✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭josh.lackey_ESO wrote: »
Do you honestly think most people use animation canceling? Most players don’t know what it is.
It’s not a mechanic that is widely known nor is it a mechanic that people flock to eso for. No one is looking back at older elder scrolls games fondly because of animation cancelling. And no one is playing wow classic because they did animation canceling better.
You take out animation canceling and then adjust (upwards) the damage the actual attacks do.
People who are doing tremendous dps use it, that is why they do tremendous dps. The rest of the players don’t.
Most players use it without even realizing it, sure they may not use it to the degree of very good players but that's beside the point.
The point is that people that ask for the removal of ac, don't have any clue what they are asking for.
Honestly, at this point i want the game to become better but i don;t have much hope for it, so for all i care fine get your animation cancelling removed, and play this game by yourself and maybe 10 people in the next few years.
Next big mmo that comes out and doesn't actually disappoint and eso is *** over, if they keep their promises on archeage and wow becomes better, you can kiss this game goodbye, because most don't play eso because it's a good mmo, they play it because there is no other good alternative.
Hell iv'e already left, i play wow, the bfa expansion by the way, this is just how bad eso is, i would prefer playing a slightly upgraded bfa rather than eso how *** it is.
As it currently stands this game is a disgrace to the elder scrolls franchise.
At the moment this game is in the top 3 because it satisfies people that want fast combat that is similar to action combat in some ways, but wanna bet that if bdo didn't have as much of a p2w grind, and more and better pve content or if gw2 had some actual progression this game wouldn't be in the top 3, if they keep their promises on archeage, that game might actually take over in the next few years, granted, that is if eso doesn't actually fix the core problems.
Did you go back to wow because they do animation cancelling better then eso? Are all spells in Warcraft instant cast now? By the way, is global cool down still a thing in wow?
I think you commented a bit too early because i finished my thought on that, and it's quite frankly a really stupid point.
The games are fundamentally different and that is lazy thinking, and you know that, but you are not here to provide facts, you are here to make a point about how animation cancelling is bad for some reasons and you do not even understand the consequences of removing it from the game.
Honestly before this patch I did not care about animation cancelling. Doing over the top dps is/was not a priority for me. And for the people who liked it, good for them.
But these nerfs were targeted at the high end dps and they (Zos) did so without care for how it effects everyone else.
So what would be a way to tap down high end dps without effecting the common player? The obvious way, I feel, is animation cancelling. It is a technique utilized mostly be high end players.
If you can think of a different way to tone down high end dps WITHOUT effecting the dps of the common player, please share. I don’t care if animation canceling stays (although the concept of it does bother me) but if you have a better idea I am willing to hear and accept it.7 -
JinMori✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭josh.lackey_ESO wrote: »
Do you honestly think most people use animation canceling? Most players don’t know what it is.
It’s not a mechanic that is widely known nor is it a mechanic that people flock to eso for. No one is looking back at older elder scrolls games fondly because of animation cancelling. And no one is playing wow classic because they did animation canceling better.
You take out animation canceling and then adjust (upwards) the damage the actual attacks do.
People who are doing tremendous dps use it, that is why they do tremendous dps. The rest of the players don’t.
Most players use it without even realizing it, sure they may not use it to the degree of very good players but that's beside the point.
The point is that people that ask for the removal of ac, don't have any clue what they are asking for.
Honestly, at this point i want the game to become better but i don;t have much hope for it, so for all i care fine get your animation cancelling removed, and play this game by yourself and maybe 10 people in the next few years.
Next big mmo that comes out and doesn't actually disappoint and eso is *** over, if they keep their promises on archeage and wow becomes better, you can kiss this game goodbye, because most don't play eso because it's a good mmo, they play it because there is no other good alternative.
Hell iv'e already left, i play wow, the bfa expansion by the way, this is just how bad eso is, i would prefer playing a slightly upgraded bfa rather than eso how *** it is.
As it currently stands this game is a disgrace to the elder scrolls franchise.
At the moment this game is in the top 3 because it satisfies people that want fast combat that is similar to action combat in some ways, but wanna bet that if bdo didn't have as much of a p2w grind, and more and better pve content or if gw2 had some actual progression this game wouldn't be in the top 3, if they keep their promises on archeage, that game might actually take over in the next few years, granted, that is if eso doesn't actually fix the core problems.
Did you go back to wow because they do animation cancelling better then eso? Are all spells in Warcraft instant cast now? By the way, is global cool down still a thing in wow?
I think you commented a bit too early because i finished my thought on that, and it's quite frankly a really stupid point.
The games are fundamentally different and that is lazy thinking, and you know that, but you are not here to provide facts, you are here to make a point about how animation cancelling is bad for some reasons and you do not even understand the consequences of removing it from the game.
Honestly before this patch I did not care about animation cancelling. Doing over the top dps is/was not a priority for me. And for the people who liked it, good for them.
But these nerfs were targeted at the high end dps and they (Zos) did so without care for how it effects everyone else.
So what would be a way to tap down high end dps without effecting the common player? The obvious way, I feel, is animation cancelling. It is a technique utilized mostly be high end players.
If you can think of a different way to tone down high end dps WITHOUT effecting the dps of the common player, please share. I don’t care if animation canceling stays (although the concept of it does bother me) but if you have a better idea I am willing to hear and accept it.
Your premise is wrong to begin with, you want to bring down the top to the bottom? So basically what you are saying is *** all the people that actually put effort into learning things, this is why your premise is wrong to begin with.
The solution is not to bring good players to the level of bad players, that will just leave you with a game that end game player will not want to play, because their effort is meaningless, the solution is to create a game that encourages people to become better, at the moment this game does not do that, hence why there are so few end game guilds that actually do stuff.
Eso suffers from massive amounts of bad players, more than any other game, and that is partially the fault of the game itself, because there aren't many information to access in game, i learned about animation cancelling randomly, they could have made a quest, and call it like training the troops, and there could have been a voice acted npc talking about how you can use your abilities and how to cancel animations or weave, just an idea out of my head.
This would solve quite a few things already, then again some players are beyond saving.
The point is to make a game that people join and enjoy for prolonged periods of time, so they can become good players, to do that you need to make information easily accessible, and encourage people to actually become better, otherwise you will have a game where people play for a few months to some years and then leave.
4 -
LeHarrt91✭✭✭✭✭
✭
Actually, i know there was a bug on console where at least annulment would occasionally have a cast time.PS NA
Have played all classes.
Warden Main0 -
Davadin✭✭✭✭✭
✭Canned_Apples wrote: »To add to this further as it stands this patch may cost the game a large portion of its playerbase if it goes live as is.
There you have it folk, hyperbole at its finest!
Maybe the scoreboard chasers that loved the current (easy) dot meta rotation, but the bulk of the players don't care. -all they want is new fun content.
What is gonna be fun if you can’t cast all your front bar skills before running out of resources? What is fun about not being able to complete half the new fun content? Yes the dot rotation was easy but it helped new players quickly become competitive to eso vets allowing newer players to play the new fun content
y'know, i'd REALLY want the combat to be, well, everything you said....
but u know what i want even more than that? want it so much that i'm willing to pay real money for it?
new content.August Palatine Davadin Bloodstrake - Nord Dragon Knight - PC NA - Gray Host
Greymoor 6.0.7 PvP : Medium 2H/SnB The Destroyer
Dragonhold 5.2.11 PvE : Medium DW/2H The Blood Furnace
March 2021 (too lazy to add CP) PvP: Medium DW/Bow The Stabber0 -
BlueRaven✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭josh.lackey_ESO wrote: »
Do you honestly think most people use animation canceling? Most players don’t know what it is.
It’s not a mechanic that is widely known nor is it a mechanic that people flock to eso for. No one is looking back at older elder scrolls games fondly because of animation cancelling. And no one is playing wow classic because they did animation canceling better.
You take out animation canceling and then adjust (upwards) the damage the actual attacks do.
People who are doing tremendous dps use it, that is why they do tremendous dps. The rest of the players don’t.
Most players use it without even realizing it, sure they may not use it to the degree of very good players but that's beside the point.
The point is that people that ask for the removal of ac, don't have any clue what they are asking for.
Honestly, at this point i want the game to become better but i don;t have much hope for it, so for all i care fine get your animation cancelling removed, and play this game by yourself and maybe 10 people in the next few years.
Next big mmo that comes out and doesn't actually disappoint and eso is *** over, if they keep their promises on archeage and wow becomes better, you can kiss this game goodbye, because most don't play eso because it's a good mmo, they play it because there is no other good alternative.
Hell iv'e already left, i play wow, the bfa expansion by the way, this is just how bad eso is, i would prefer playing a slightly upgraded bfa rather than eso how *** it is.
As it currently stands this game is a disgrace to the elder scrolls franchise.
At the moment this game is in the top 3 because it satisfies people that want fast combat that is similar to action combat in some ways, but wanna bet that if bdo didn't have as much of a p2w grind, and more and better pve content or if gw2 had some actual progression this game wouldn't be in the top 3, if they keep their promises on archeage, that game might actually take over in the next few years, granted, that is if eso doesn't actually fix the core problems.
Did you go back to wow because they do animation cancelling better then eso? Are all spells in Warcraft instant cast now? By the way, is global cool down still a thing in wow?
I think you commented a bit too early because i finished my thought on that, and it's quite frankly a really stupid point.
The games are fundamentally different and that is lazy thinking, and you know that, but you are not here to provide facts, you are here to make a point about how animation cancelling is bad for some reasons and you do not even understand the consequences of removing it from the game.
Honestly before this patch I did not care about animation cancelling. Doing over the top dps is/was not a priority for me. And for the people who liked it, good for them.
But these nerfs were targeted at the high end dps and they (Zos) did so without care for how it effects everyone else.
So what would be a way to tap down high end dps without effecting the common player? The obvious way, I feel, is animation cancelling. It is a technique utilized mostly be high end players.
If you can think of a different way to tone down high end dps WITHOUT effecting the dps of the common player, please share. I don’t care if animation canceling stays (although the concept of it does bother me) but if you have a better idea I am willing to hear and accept it.
Your premise is wrong to begin with, you want to bring down the top to the bottom? So basically what you are saying is *** all the people that actually put effort into learning things, this is why your premise is wrong to begin with.
This is not my premise. I don't want any nerfs at all. Zos has stated these changes (nerfs) are aimed at the endgame players.
They said so very bluntly.
They also said they don't care about how the changes effect people who log in just to "kill dragons".
Which they also said very bluntly.
I think this is stupid to punish common players for other people having "too high" of dps.
The solution is not to bring good players to the level of bad players, that will just leave you with a game that end game player will not want to play, because their effort is meaningless, the solution is to create a game that encourages people to become better, at the moment this game does not do that, hence why there are so few end game guilds that actually do stuff.
With these patch changes people doing super high dps will still be doing all the stuff they are doing now. But the people on the lower end of the spectrum will now be shut out of content. Is that healthy for the game?
If they want the 100k dps to go to 75k dps, I am just trying to suggest a way to do it with out the 20k dps falling to 15k. Can you think of a better way?
And is 75k and 20k dps on the "same level" to you?
Again I don't want any nerfs, but Zos does. I am just suggesting a way that minimizes the impact on lower end players. So come up with a solution that is better than mine.Eso suffers from massive amounts of bad players, more than any other game, and that is partially the fault of the game itself, because there aren't many information to access in game, i learned about animation cancelling randomly, they could have made a quest, and call it like training the troops, and there could have been a voice acted npc talking about how you can use your abilities and how to cancel animations or weave, just an idea out of my head.
This would solve quite a few things already, then again some players are beyond saving.
"Did you know you can swing your weapon without moving your hands? Here, let me show you how." Said the quest giver. (Yes, very immersive.)
Personally what I like most about Skyrim was how no one did any animations when in combat. I mean in ESO why have animations at all, we can just all stand around still having staring contests at bosses, that will save money on development. What I liked best when doing heroic Lich King was how our raid group hardly showed any animations at all. That is what made Wow great! /sarcasmThe point is to make a game that people join and enjoy for prolonged periods of time, so they can become good players, to do that you need to make information easily accessible, and encourage people to actually become better, otherwise you will have a game where people play for a few months to some years and then leave.
Animation cancelling is a technical glitch that the developers just did not care to correct. They did not fix it for the same reason they don't fix HRC, because it actually needs effort on their part. It's easier for them to say "sure, ok" then to actually make the game better.
It looks bad in game.
It feels like an exploit.
It's not intuitive.
And if your computer is not quick enough, it is impossible.
If high end players want to use it, fine. But if high end payers using it creates a reason for Zos to nerf common player dps who don't use it, that is a problem.
High end players use a lot of other methods to keep their dps high. (Bar swapping, etc.) A skill gap is not going to disappear because of animation cancelling going away.
But again it does not have to. Please, come up with a solution that fills Zos's "nerf high end player dps" priorities without stopping common players from doing content.7 -
JinMori✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭josh.lackey_ESO wrote: »
Do you honestly think most people use animation canceling? Most players don’t know what it is.
It’s not a mechanic that is widely known nor is it a mechanic that people flock to eso for. No one is looking back at older elder scrolls games fondly because of animation cancelling. And no one is playing wow classic because they did animation canceling better.
You take out animation canceling and then adjust (upwards) the damage the actual attacks do.
People who are doing tremendous dps use it, that is why they do tremendous dps. The rest of the players don’t.
Most players use it without even realizing it, sure they may not use it to the degree of very good players but that's beside the point.
The point is that people that ask for the removal of ac, don't have any clue what they are asking for.
Honestly, at this point i want the game to become better but i don;t have much hope for it, so for all i care fine get your animation cancelling removed, and play this game by yourself and maybe 10 people in the next few years.
Next big mmo that comes out and doesn't actually disappoint and eso is *** over, if they keep their promises on archeage and wow becomes better, you can kiss this game goodbye, because most don't play eso because it's a good mmo, they play it because there is no other good alternative.
Hell iv'e already left, i play wow, the bfa expansion by the way, this is just how bad eso is, i would prefer playing a slightly upgraded bfa rather than eso how *** it is.
As it currently stands this game is a disgrace to the elder scrolls franchise.
At the moment this game is in the top 3 because it satisfies people that want fast combat that is similar to action combat in some ways, but wanna bet that if bdo didn't have as much of a p2w grind, and more and better pve content or if gw2 had some actual progression this game wouldn't be in the top 3, if they keep their promises on archeage, that game might actually take over in the next few years, granted, that is if eso doesn't actually fix the core problems.
Did you go back to wow because they do animation cancelling better then eso? Are all spells in Warcraft instant cast now? By the way, is global cool down still a thing in wow?
I think you commented a bit too early because i finished my thought on that, and it's quite frankly a really stupid point.
The games are fundamentally different and that is lazy thinking, and you know that, but you are not here to provide facts, you are here to make a point about how animation cancelling is bad for some reasons and you do not even understand the consequences of removing it from the game.
Honestly before this patch I did not care about animation cancelling. Doing over the top dps is/was not a priority for me. And for the people who liked it, good for them.
But these nerfs were targeted at the high end dps and they (Zos) did so without care for how it effects everyone else.
So what would be a way to tap down high end dps without effecting the common player? The obvious way, I feel, is animation cancelling. It is a technique utilized mostly be high end players.
If you can think of a different way to tone down high end dps WITHOUT effecting the dps of the common player, please share. I don’t care if animation canceling stays (although the concept of it does bother me) but if you have a better idea I am willing to hear and accept it.
Your premise is wrong to begin with, you want to bring down the top to the bottom? So basically what you are saying is *** all the people that actually put effort into learning things, this is why your premise is wrong to begin with.
This is not my premise. I don't want any nerfs at all. Zos has stated these changes (nerfs) are aimed at the endgame players.
They said so very bluntly.
They also said they don't care about how the changes effect people who log in just to "kill dragons".
Which they also said very bluntly.
I think this is stupid to punish common players for other people having "too high" of dps.
The solution is not to bring good players to the level of bad players, that will just leave you with a game that end game player will not want to play, because their effort is meaningless, the solution is to create a game that encourages people to become better, at the moment this game does not do that, hence why there are so few end game guilds that actually do stuff.
With these patch changes people doing super high dps will still be doing all the stuff they are doing now. But the people on the lower end of the spectrum will now be shut out of content. Is that healthy for the game?
If they want the 100k dps to go to 75k dps, I am just trying to suggest a way to do it with out the 20k dps falling to 15k. Can you think of a better way?
And is 75k and 20k dps on the "same level" to you?
Again I don't want any nerfs, but Zos does. I am just suggesting a way that minimizes the impact on lower end players. So come up with a solution that is better than mine.Eso suffers from massive amounts of bad players, more than any other game, and that is partially the fault of the game itself, because there aren't many information to access in game, i learned about animation cancelling randomly, they could have made a quest, and call it like training the troops, and there could have been a voice acted npc talking about how you can use your abilities and how to cancel animations or weave, just an idea out of my head.
This would solve quite a few things already, then again some players are beyond saving.
"Did you know you can swing your weapon without moving your hands? Here, let me show you how." Said the quest giver. (Yes, very immersive.)
Personally what I like most about Skyrim was how no one did any animations when in combat. I mean in ESO why have animations at all, we can just all stand around still having staring contests at bosses, that will save money on development. What I liked best when doing heroic Lich King was how our raid group hardly showed any animations at all. That is what made Wow great! /sarcasmThe point is to make a game that people join and enjoy for prolonged periods of time, so they can become good players, to do that you need to make information easily accessible, and encourage people to actually become better, otherwise you will have a game where people play for a few months to some years and then leave.
Animation cancelling is a technical glitch that the developers just did not care to correct. They did not fix it for the same reason they don't fix HRC, because it actually needs effort on their part. It's easier for them to say "sure, ok" then to actually make the game better.
It looks bad in game.
It feels like an exploit.
It's not intuitive.
And if your computer is not quick enough, it is impossible.
If high end players want to use it, fine. But if high end payers using it creates a reason for Zos to nerf common player dps who don't use it, that is a problem.
High end players use a lot of other methods to keep their dps high. (Bar swapping, etc.) A skill gap is not going to disappear because of animation cancelling going away.
But again it does not have to. Please, come up with a solution that fills Zos's "nerf high end player dps" priorities without stopping common players from doing content.
So you are not really looking for a solution, you are looking for a dream. Iv'e already given you a solution that is much better than nerfing the high end.
How to reduce the top tier damage without doing anything to the low end? You make the game uninteresting by removing anything that can give you an edge in battle, so out with animation cancelling, out with item sets, out with personal choice, you make it so spamming a single ability does equal damage compared to having a full fledged out rotation, remove synergies, remove off balance, remove dodge,remove block, you remove any incentive to get better at the game, and you rebalance all content based on the current status of the game.
Or you cap the damage, which is also a really bad solution, and quite frankly i don't know how they would do it.
What you don't like the game anymore now because it has absolutely 0 depth? Well this is what you asked for, you just didn't realize it.
The reduce the high end leads only to *** answers, because if you nerf damage you just nerf it for everyone, but the high end still does much more than the low end, so the only way to make things more equal, is to remove anything that gives you an edge in battle, and with that you killed the game so good job.
Is this the game you want? Fine, i will not be a part in it, when there are much better games.
You do not understand the reason why nerfs keep happening, which is why you seemingly put the fault on the players that are doing 100k damage, that is only a symptom iv'e already said what the reason is in previous posts i made, or at least a good majority of it, the fault basically boils down to the devs themselves.
You also said the usual bs about how animation cancelling is seemingly IMPOSSIBLE with a bad computer, dude, i can use animation cancelling with 300 ping, just the usual stuff you see on the forums honestly, people that understand frankly nothing talk about things that they don;t really understand.
Maybe some personal responsibility would be of use here, if you have a really bad connection than maybe mmos aren't for you, should everyone else lose because you can't keep up? I have a couple of ideas, one of them is to get better internet, if you can't than maybe you have to reevaluate your priorities, because it's most likely because you cannot afford it, and having high latency in a mmo is the last of your worries, if it is because you live in a town with really bad internet, well, life isn't fair and it doesn't fall on other people to lose out because of it, there are many ways of getting better internet, it's not necessarily fiber optics, and again, when you say things like this, you are not putting the fault where you should, performance has always been a problem in this game.
Edited by JinMori on October 17, 2019 12:41AM5 -
Lucky28✭✭✭✭✭
✭There have been many patches ZoS should have postponed, they never have.... give up, this is going live.Invictus3 -
fbours✭✭✭The only playerbase we might be losing is the vocal minority. You think changing abilities will make the average/casual player which is their target market leave, no. One thing I do agree about why this patch is bad is the inconsistency and lack of vision/direction on ZOS part. Now after few months we are in a new treadmill, too fast too soon - trademills are core to MMOs BTW, just look at other MMOs.
You know what will make people quit (pvp)? Performance, when I can't use my abilities that are getting nerfed what's the point. Remove cloak but give me better performance so I can play in pvp properly
Why people keep assuming that the casual player doesn't really care at all if they are nerfed or not?
You think they aren't gonna notice for the worse that their dots have been nerfed by 50%, do you seriously think they are that dumb?
The fact is that the casual player that leaves, you don;t hear about it, because most likely you don't hear them on the forums, which makes you think that they don't really care at all about damage healing or mitigation in any way, but when they get destroyed while doing stuff because they just can't do any of those things even to the low standard that they were doing before, i assure you that many will leave.
Casual players might not care about being the best of the best, but they aren't just completely oblivious to changes like this.
So stop saying stupid *** like that.
The rest of what you said i agree with though.
Agree to disagree, I my self am a casual - and what I care more than the 50% nerf the dots is that they created a new treadmill right after everyone just finished the previous one, I am out of gas... And other things but I see that in other games.
I believe that is what most people are concerned and vocal about rather than nerfs. What is the root of the problem? no vision from ZOS about balancing and patches which has been stated over and over - too much inconsistency. Buff dots, nerf dots, slightly buff dots... To top that it appears they do not listen to feedback, or maybe they do but from few vocal minorities, which truly is a trend in most MMOs unfortunately.
So to rephrase, if people truly quit is not due to the nerfs, that is silly. What ever game you go to it will literally be the same deal. But because they have to relearn play styles, modify gear (my self I have no more transmutations stones due to last patch, that sux) way too soon, and of course performance (CP cyrodiil).
My 2 cents from a guy that just came from playing gw2, wow and FFXIV.3 -
ArcVelarian✭✭✭✭✭Especially in regards to DKs this patch is garbage. Our class DoTs should not be getting nerfed at all.
I swear to god, this is the development equivalent of a drunk driving.
Edited by ArcVelarian on October 17, 2019 1:40AMMurphy's Law of PvP : If it can be abused and or exploited, it will be abused and or exploited.4 -
JinMori✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭The only playerbase we might be losing is the vocal minority. You think changing abilities will make the average/casual player which is their target market leave, no. One thing I do agree about why this patch is bad is the inconsistency and lack of vision/direction on ZOS part. Now after few months we are in a new treadmill, too fast too soon - trademills are core to MMOs BTW, just look at other MMOs.
You know what will make people quit (pvp)? Performance, when I can't use my abilities that are getting nerfed what's the point. Remove cloak but give me better performance so I can play in pvp properly
Why people keep assuming that the casual player doesn't really care at all if they are nerfed or not?
You think they aren't gonna notice for the worse that their dots have been nerfed by 50%, do you seriously think they are that dumb?
The fact is that the casual player that leaves, you don;t hear about it, because most likely you don't hear them on the forums, which makes you think that they don't really care at all about damage healing or mitigation in any way, but when they get destroyed while doing stuff because they just can't do any of those things even to the low standard that they were doing before, i assure you that many will leave.
Casual players might not care about being the best of the best, but they aren't just completely oblivious to changes like this.
So stop saying stupid *** like that.
The rest of what you said i agree with though.
Agree to disagree, I my self am a casual - and what I care more than the 50% nerf the dots is that they created a new treadmill right after everyone just finished the previous one, I am out of gas... And other things but I see that in other games.
I believe that is what most people are concerned and vocal about rather than nerfs. What is the root of the problem? no vision from ZOS about balancing and patches which has been stated over and over - too much inconsistency. Buff dots, nerf dots, slightly buff dots... To top that it appears they do not listen to feedback, or maybe they do but from few vocal minorities, which truly is a trend in most MMOs unfortunately.
So to rephrase, if people truly quit is not due to the nerfs, that is silly. What ever game you go to it will literally be the same deal. But because they have to relearn play styles, modify gear (my self I have no more transmutations stones due to last patch, that sux) way too soon, and of course performance (CP cyrodiil).
My 2 cents from a guy that just came from playing gw2, wow and FFXIV.
There may be more than one reason why you might leave a game, the point mostly was that most of the time you do not hear about casual players leaving because they just don;t really bother commenting about it, i am 100 % sure that many will leave because of this patch, both casuals and veterans.
You are also correct on the new treadmill part of your comment, they aren't creating new viable solutions, they are just switching from one meta to another, the could have kept aoe dots the same, and slightly buf fst dots, so you could have chosen between versatility and pure st damage, but no, out of the window into the trash aoe dots go, and now st dots are also overnerfed, so honestly, i do not regret leaving this game after elsweyr.Edited by JinMori on October 17, 2019 1:56AM1 -
BlueRaven✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭josh.lackey_ESO wrote: »
Do you honestly think most people use animation canceling? Most players don’t know what it is.
It’s not a mechanic that is widely known nor is it a mechanic that people flock to eso for. No one is looking back at older elder scrolls games fondly because of animation cancelling. And no one is playing wow classic because they did animation canceling better.
You take out animation canceling and then adjust (upwards) the damage the actual attacks do.
People who are doing tremendous dps use it, that is why they do tremendous dps. The rest of the players don’t.
Most players use it without even realizing it, sure they may not use it to the degree of very good players but that's beside the point.
The point is that people that ask for the removal of ac, don't have any clue what they are asking for.
Honestly, at this point i want the game to become better but i don;t have much hope for it, so for all i care fine get your animation cancelling removed, and play this game by yourself and maybe 10 people in the next few years.
Next big mmo that comes out and doesn't actually disappoint and eso is *** over, if they keep their promises on archeage and wow becomes better, you can kiss this game goodbye, because most don't play eso because it's a good mmo, they play it because there is no other good alternative.
Hell iv'e already left, i play wow, the bfa expansion by the way, this is just how bad eso is, i would prefer playing a slightly upgraded bfa rather than eso how *** it is.
As it currently stands this game is a disgrace to the elder scrolls franchise.
At the moment this game is in the top 3 because it satisfies people that want fast combat that is similar to action combat in some ways, but wanna bet that if bdo didn't have as much of a p2w grind, and more and better pve content or if gw2 had some actual progression this game wouldn't be in the top 3, if they keep their promises on archeage, that game might actually take over in the next few years, granted, that is if eso doesn't actually fix the core problems.
Did you go back to wow because they do animation cancelling better then eso? Are all spells in Warcraft instant cast now? By the way, is global cool down still a thing in wow?
I think you commented a bit too early because i finished my thought on that, and it's quite frankly a really stupid point.
The games are fundamentally different and that is lazy thinking, and you know that, but you are not here to provide facts, you are here to make a point about how animation cancelling is bad for some reasons and you do not even understand the consequences of removing it from the game.
Honestly before this patch I did not care about animation cancelling. Doing over the top dps is/was not a priority for me. And for the people who liked it, good for them.
But these nerfs were targeted at the high end dps and they (Zos) did so without care for how it effects everyone else.
So what would be a way to tap down high end dps without effecting the common player? The obvious way, I feel, is animation cancelling. It is a technique utilized mostly be high end players.
If you can think of a different way to tone down high end dps WITHOUT effecting the dps of the common player, please share. I don’t care if animation canceling stays (although the concept of it does bother me) but if you have a better idea I am willing to hear and accept it.
Your premise is wrong to begin with, you want to bring down the top to the bottom? So basically what you are saying is *** all the people that actually put effort into learning things, this is why your premise is wrong to begin with.
This is not my premise. I don't want any nerfs at all. Zos has stated these changes (nerfs) are aimed at the endgame players.
They said so very bluntly.
They also said they don't care about how the changes effect people who log in just to "kill dragons".
Which they also said very bluntly.
I think this is stupid to punish common players for other people having "too high" of dps.
The solution is not to bring good players to the level of bad players, that will just leave you with a game that end game player will not want to play, because their effort is meaningless, the solution is to create a game that encourages people to become better, at the moment this game does not do that, hence why there are so few end game guilds that actually do stuff.
With these patch changes people doing super high dps will still be doing all the stuff they are doing now. But the people on the lower end of the spectrum will now be shut out of content. Is that healthy for the game?
If they want the 100k dps to go to 75k dps, I am just trying to suggest a way to do it with out the 20k dps falling to 15k. Can you think of a better way?
And is 75k and 20k dps on the "same level" to you?
Again I don't want any nerfs, but Zos does. I am just suggesting a way that minimizes the impact on lower end players. So come up with a solution that is better than mine.Eso suffers from massive amounts of bad players, more than any other game, and that is partially the fault of the game itself, because there aren't many information to access in game, i learned about animation cancelling randomly, they could have made a quest, and call it like training the troops, and there could have been a voice acted npc talking about how you can use your abilities and how to cancel animations or weave, just an idea out of my head.
This would solve quite a few things already, then again some players are beyond saving.
"Did you know you can swing your weapon without moving your hands? Here, let me show you how." Said the quest giver. (Yes, very immersive.)
Personally what I like most about Skyrim was how no one did any animations when in combat. I mean in ESO why have animations at all, we can just all stand around still having staring contests at bosses, that will save money on development. What I liked best when doing heroic Lich King was how our raid group hardly showed any animations at all. That is what made Wow great! /sarcasmThe point is to make a game that people join and enjoy for prolonged periods of time, so they can become good players, to do that you need to make information easily accessible, and encourage people to actually become better, otherwise you will have a game where people play for a few months to some years and then leave.
Animation cancelling is a technical glitch that the developers just did not care to correct. They did not fix it for the same reason they don't fix HRC, because it actually needs effort on their part. It's easier for them to say "sure, ok" then to actually make the game better.
It looks bad in game.
It feels like an exploit.
It's not intuitive.
And if your computer is not quick enough, it is impossible.
If high end players want to use it, fine. But if high end payers using it creates a reason for Zos to nerf common player dps who don't use it, that is a problem.
High end players use a lot of other methods to keep their dps high. (Bar swapping, etc.) A skill gap is not going to disappear because of animation cancelling going away.
But again it does not have to. Please, come up with a solution that fills Zos's "nerf high end player dps" priorities without stopping common players from doing content.
So you are not really looking for a solution, you are looking for a dream. Iv'e already given you a solution that is much better than nerfing the high end.
How to reduce the top tier damage without doing anything to the low end? You make the game uninteresting by removing anything that can give you an edge in battle, so out with animation cancelling, out with item sets, out with personal choice, you make it so spamming a single ability does equal damage compared to having a full fledged out rotation, remove synergies, remove off balance, remove dodge,remove block, you remove any incentive to get better at the game, and you rebalance all content based on the current status of the game.
Or you cap the damage, which is also a really bad solution, and quite frankly i don't know how they would do it.
What you don't like the game anymore now because it has absolutely 0 depth? Well this is what you asked for, you just didn't realize it.
The reduce the high end leads only to *** answers, because if you nerf damage you just nerf it for everyone, but the high end still does much more than the low end, so the only way to make things more equal, is to remove anything that gives you an edge in battle, and with that you killed the game so good job.
Is this the game you want? Fine, i will not be a part in it, when there are much better games.
You do not understand the reason why nerfs keep happening, which is why you seemingly put the fault on the players that are doing 100k damage, that is only a symptom iv'e already said what the reason is in previous posts i made, or at least a good majority of it, the fault basically boils down to the devs themselves.
You also said the usual bs about how animation cancelling is seemingly IMPOSSIBLE with a bad computer, dude, i can use animation cancelling with 300 ping, just the usual stuff you see on the forums honestly, people that understand frankly nothing talk about things that they don;t really understand.
Maybe some personal responsibility would be of use here, if you have a really bad connection than maybe mmos aren't for you, should everyone else lose because you can't keep up? I have a couple of ideas, one of them is to get better internet, if you can't than maybe you have to reevaluate your priorities, because it's most likely because you cannot afford it, and having high latency in a mmo is the last of your worries, if it is because you live in a town with really bad internet, well, life isn't fair and it doesn't fall on other people to lose out because of it, there are many ways of getting better internet, it's not necessarily fiber optics, and again, when you say things like this, you are not putting the fault where you should, performance has always been a problem in this game.
First, I like how you keep assuming my computer/internet connects are bad. It's very entertaining seeing you make wrong assumptions about people.
Second, nerfing the high end players is not my idea. (How hard is that to understand?) It is Zos stated goal. 100k dps players don't bother me, but it bothers Zos so that is why they are nerfing the dps. But they are doing it so lazily and without thought to how it effects everyone and that does bother me. This dot/aoe change is so lazy it feels like something they thought of on a morning commute, not three months of planning. And it is being implemented by a team that actually does not care how it effects the common player.
Your apparent "solution" ("the solution is to create a game that encourages people to become better") is basically "get good" which is laughable. Getting good is not some radical solution they can implement in game (not with their "blind fold and throw a dart" combat changes every three months). They tried with the spell suggestions, but there is an average dps and that average dps will now be substantially lower.
Which means overall the pool for players doing dps dependent content will go down as well. And that will frustrate the higher end players who will find less players for group content.
Apparently you are fine with fewer people doing group content? Because with lower dps fewer people will be doing dungeons and trials. Personally I am not, I want as many people to do dungeons and vet content as possible because that is how we get more of that content. but if you push the lower end dps out of it, that is what you will get.
Players who are struggling now are not going to get better, they are just going to see what ever progress they made wiped out and have no content to do. Players on the edge of the bubble will be left behind.
And all I did was try to think of something, ANYTHING , that will lower top end dps without punishing everyone else. To keep that pool of players doing the content at least somewhat stable. Something actually in game, that is programmable. Not some vague "maybe we can highlight that weird game developer approved glitch that no other MMO would implement in a game".
And lastly not everyone has a high end internet connection. Not everyone has the latest computer and not everyone has the best computer equipment. I know this because I was in several different trial groups across many guilds until Update 23 basically wiped them out. I have seen all players from high end to low, few people are investing a ton of real world money to play an MMO. Not everyone has unlimited budgets or live in areas where the internet is any good.
Me, I have an expensive computer and a great internet connection (I need them for work as I have large files I need to create on and send), but I know most players are not like me.10 -
Numerikuu✭✭✭✭✭
✭Joy_Division wrote: »This is the only game I have ever played where patches make it less enjoyable to play
This... How Zenimax and the staff behind these gameplay decisions and designs can ignore this message is utterly astounding.
But hey, it's ok, because they're killing it! Good job. Keep it up. Proud of you. And thank you, truly. You've been saving me, my friends, and the hundreds of guild mates who've long given up hope on this game money we'd have wasted on ESO+ and the games content packs!
Here's to saving more in 2020! Because let's face it, it'd take a huge *** miracle for them to deliver on their false promises of stability fixes and so on...
Edited by Numerikuu on October 17, 2019 2:14AM6 -
JinMori✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭josh.lackey_ESO wrote: »
Do you honestly think most people use animation canceling? Most players don’t know what it is.
It’s not a mechanic that is widely known nor is it a mechanic that people flock to eso for. No one is looking back at older elder scrolls games fondly because of animation cancelling. And no one is playing wow classic because they did animation canceling better.
You take out animation canceling and then adjust (upwards) the damage the actual attacks do.
People who are doing tremendous dps use it, that is why they do tremendous dps. The rest of the players don’t.
Most players use it without even realizing it, sure they may not use it to the degree of very good players but that's beside the point.
The point is that people that ask for the removal of ac, don't have any clue what they are asking for.
Honestly, at this point i want the game to become better but i don;t have much hope for it, so for all i care fine get your animation cancelling removed, and play this game by yourself and maybe 10 people in the next few years.
Next big mmo that comes out and doesn't actually disappoint and eso is *** over, if they keep their promises on archeage and wow becomes better, you can kiss this game goodbye, because most don't play eso because it's a good mmo, they play it because there is no other good alternative.
Hell iv'e already left, i play wow, the bfa expansion by the way, this is just how bad eso is, i would prefer playing a slightly upgraded bfa rather than eso how *** it is.
As it currently stands this game is a disgrace to the elder scrolls franchise.
At the moment this game is in the top 3 because it satisfies people that want fast combat that is similar to action combat in some ways, but wanna bet that if bdo didn't have as much of a p2w grind, and more and better pve content or if gw2 had some actual progression this game wouldn't be in the top 3, if they keep their promises on archeage, that game might actually take over in the next few years, granted, that is if eso doesn't actually fix the core problems.
Did you go back to wow because they do animation cancelling better then eso? Are all spells in Warcraft instant cast now? By the way, is global cool down still a thing in wow?
I think you commented a bit too early because i finished my thought on that, and it's quite frankly a really stupid point.
The games are fundamentally different and that is lazy thinking, and you know that, but you are not here to provide facts, you are here to make a point about how animation cancelling is bad for some reasons and you do not even understand the consequences of removing it from the game.
Honestly before this patch I did not care about animation cancelling. Doing over the top dps is/was not a priority for me. And for the people who liked it, good for them.
But these nerfs were targeted at the high end dps and they (Zos) did so without care for how it effects everyone else.
So what would be a way to tap down high end dps without effecting the common player? The obvious way, I feel, is animation cancelling. It is a technique utilized mostly be high end players.
If you can think of a different way to tone down high end dps WITHOUT effecting the dps of the common player, please share. I don’t care if animation canceling stays (although the concept of it does bother me) but if you have a better idea I am willing to hear and accept it.
Your premise is wrong to begin with, you want to bring down the top to the bottom? So basically what you are saying is *** all the people that actually put effort into learning things, this is why your premise is wrong to begin with.
This is not my premise. I don't want any nerfs at all. Zos has stated these changes (nerfs) are aimed at the endgame players.
They said so very bluntly.
They also said they don't care about how the changes effect people who log in just to "kill dragons".
Which they also said very bluntly.
I think this is stupid to punish common players for other people having "too high" of dps.
The solution is not to bring good players to the level of bad players, that will just leave you with a game that end game player will not want to play, because their effort is meaningless, the solution is to create a game that encourages people to become better, at the moment this game does not do that, hence why there are so few end game guilds that actually do stuff.
With these patch changes people doing super high dps will still be doing all the stuff they are doing now. But the people on the lower end of the spectrum will now be shut out of content. Is that healthy for the game?
If they want the 100k dps to go to 75k dps, I am just trying to suggest a way to do it with out the 20k dps falling to 15k. Can you think of a better way?
And is 75k and 20k dps on the "same level" to you?
Again I don't want any nerfs, but Zos does. I am just suggesting a way that minimizes the impact on lower end players. So come up with a solution that is better than mine.Eso suffers from massive amounts of bad players, more than any other game, and that is partially the fault of the game itself, because there aren't many information to access in game, i learned about animation cancelling randomly, they could have made a quest, and call it like training the troops, and there could have been a voice acted npc talking about how you can use your abilities and how to cancel animations or weave, just an idea out of my head.
This would solve quite a few things already, then again some players are beyond saving.
"Did you know you can swing your weapon without moving your hands? Here, let me show you how." Said the quest giver. (Yes, very immersive.)
Personally what I like most about Skyrim was how no one did any animations when in combat. I mean in ESO why have animations at all, we can just all stand around still having staring contests at bosses, that will save money on development. What I liked best when doing heroic Lich King was how our raid group hardly showed any animations at all. That is what made Wow great! /sarcasmThe point is to make a game that people join and enjoy for prolonged periods of time, so they can become good players, to do that you need to make information easily accessible, and encourage people to actually become better, otherwise you will have a game where people play for a few months to some years and then leave.
Animation cancelling is a technical glitch that the developers just did not care to correct. They did not fix it for the same reason they don't fix HRC, because it actually needs effort on their part. It's easier for them to say "sure, ok" then to actually make the game better.
It looks bad in game.
It feels like an exploit.
It's not intuitive.
And if your computer is not quick enough, it is impossible.
If high end players want to use it, fine. But if high end payers using it creates a reason for Zos to nerf common player dps who don't use it, that is a problem.
High end players use a lot of other methods to keep their dps high. (Bar swapping, etc.) A skill gap is not going to disappear because of animation cancelling going away.
But again it does not have to. Please, come up with a solution that fills Zos's "nerf high end player dps" priorities without stopping common players from doing content.
So you are not really looking for a solution, you are looking for a dream. Iv'e already given you a solution that is much better than nerfing the high end.
How to reduce the top tier damage without doing anything to the low end? You make the game uninteresting by removing anything that can give you an edge in battle, so out with animation cancelling, out with item sets, out with personal choice, you make it so spamming a single ability does equal damage compared to having a full fledged out rotation, remove synergies, remove off balance, remove dodge,remove block, you remove any incentive to get better at the game, and you rebalance all content based on the current status of the game.
Or you cap the damage, which is also a really bad solution, and quite frankly i don't know how they would do it.
What you don't like the game anymore now because it has absolutely 0 depth? Well this is what you asked for, you just didn't realize it.
The reduce the high end leads only to *** answers, because if you nerf damage you just nerf it for everyone, but the high end still does much more than the low end, so the only way to make things more equal, is to remove anything that gives you an edge in battle, and with that you killed the game so good job.
Is this the game you want? Fine, i will not be a part in it, when there are much better games.
You do not understand the reason why nerfs keep happening, which is why you seemingly put the fault on the players that are doing 100k damage, that is only a symptom iv'e already said what the reason is in previous posts i made, or at least a good majority of it, the fault basically boils down to the devs themselves.
You also said the usual bs about how animation cancelling is seemingly IMPOSSIBLE with a bad computer, dude, i can use animation cancelling with 300 ping, just the usual stuff you see on the forums honestly, people that understand frankly nothing talk about things that they don;t really understand.
Maybe some personal responsibility would be of use here, if you have a really bad connection than maybe mmos aren't for you, should everyone else lose because you can't keep up? I have a couple of ideas, one of them is to get better internet, if you can't than maybe you have to reevaluate your priorities, because it's most likely because you cannot afford it, and having high latency in a mmo is the last of your worries, if it is because you live in a town with really bad internet, well, life isn't fair and it doesn't fall on other people to lose out because of it, there are many ways of getting better internet, it's not necessarily fiber optics, and again, when you say things like this, you are not putting the fault where you should, performance has always been a problem in this game.
First, I like how you keep assuming my computer/internet connects are bad. It's very entertaining seeing you make wrong assumptions about people.
Second, nerfing the high end players is not my idea. (How hard is that to understand?) It is Zos stated goal. 100k dps players don't bother me, but it bothers Zos so that is why they are nerfing the dps. But they are doing it so lazily and without thought to how it effects everyone and that does bother me. This dot/aoe change is so lazy it feels like something they thought of on a morning commute, not three months of planning. And it is being implemented by a team that actually does not care how it effects the common player.
Your apparent "solution" ("the solution is to create a game that encourages people to become better") is basically "get good" which is laughable. Getting good is not some radical solution they can implement in game (not with their "blind fold and throw a dart" combat changes every three months). They tried with the spell suggestions, but there is an average dps and that average dps will now be substantially lower.
Which means overall the pool for players doing dps dependent content will go down as well. And that will frustrate the higher end players who will find less players for group content.
Apparently you are fine with fewer people doing group content? Because with lower dps fewer people will be doing dungeons and trials. Personally I am not, I want as many people to do dungeons and vet content as possible because that is how we get more of that content. but if you push the lower end dps out of it, that is what you will get.
Players who are struggling now are not going to get better, they are just going to see what ever progress they made wiped out and have no content to do. Players on the edge of the bubble will be left behind.
And all I did was try to think of something, ANYTHING , that will lower top end dps without punishing everyone else. To keep that pool of players doing the content at least somewhat stable. Something actually in game, that is programmable. Not some vague "maybe we can highlight that weird game developer approved glitch that no other MMO would implement in a game".
And lastly not everyone has a high end internet connection. Not everyone has the latest computer and not everyone has the best computer equipment. I know this because I was in several different trial groups across many guilds until Update 23 basically wiped them out. I have seen all players from high end to low, few people are investing a ton of real world money to play an MMO. Not everyone has unlimited budgets or live in areas where the internet is any good.
Me, I have an expensive computer and a great internet connection (I need them for work as I have large files I need to create on and send), but I know most players are not like me.
i'm gonna close it with this.
You did exactly what you accused me of, you thought that what i said was specifically related to you, it wasn't, only the part where i responded to your question about providing a solution is, the rest was a general statement, not aimed at you.
I know that when you respond to someone you think that the whole argument is about you people people, the brain is very egocentric, so whatever you say they take it as personal, but it wasn't.
I'm tired of repeating myself and thinking for other people, do your own thinking, find yourself the solution if you can, if you think that you can decrease the skill gap without also affecting the game negatively or close the gap without affecting also the low end, you are wrong.
As i said before, they can close the gap by removing anything that gives good player an advantage over bad players or by capping the dps which is almost equally as bad, that is it, they can nerf sets that are used by the high end mostly, but then they ruin any incentive to get better gear, if you nerf abilities, you nerf equally across the board, so that is not a solution to that problem, as i said, there is no good solution for this, only varying degrees of ***.
If this is the game that zos envisions, then it's not for me, the fact is that they cannot really do it without destroying the game also, which is why i said "you don't want a solution, you want a perfect dream where everything works regardless".
The only real solution to this problem, that leads to objectively the best result is to make people care about getting good, to make the game so good, that people wanna improve because they wanna experience all the content in the game, this is not the way to do it, constantly ignoring the core problems the game has, and delaying facing the problem another day is not the way to do it. At that point if you still do not care, then don;t come to the forums complaining about how you are a lamb to the slaughter in pvp.
The matter of fact is that getting good is really not that hard, if you really, and i mean really suck at the game is because you haven;t bothered one bit, or you have coordination problems, like physical problems.Edited by JinMori on October 17, 2019 2:53AM0 -
BlueRaven✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭josh.lackey_ESO wrote: »
Do you honestly think most people use animation canceling? Most players don’t know what it is.
It’s not a mechanic that is widely known nor is it a mechanic that people flock to eso for. No one is looking back at older elder scrolls games fondly because of animation cancelling. And no one is playing wow classic because they did animation canceling better.
You take out animation canceling and then adjust (upwards) the damage the actual attacks do.
People who are doing tremendous dps use it, that is why they do tremendous dps. The rest of the players don’t.
Most players use it without even realizing it, sure they may not use it to the degree of very good players but that's beside the point.
The point is that people that ask for the removal of ac, don't have any clue what they are asking for.
Honestly, at this point i want the game to become better but i don;t have much hope for it, so for all i care fine get your animation cancelling removed, and play this game by yourself and maybe 10 people in the next few years.
Next big mmo that comes out and doesn't actually disappoint and eso is *** over, if they keep their promises on archeage and wow becomes better, you can kiss this game goodbye, because most don't play eso because it's a good mmo, they play it because there is no other good alternative.
Hell iv'e already left, i play wow, the bfa expansion by the way, this is just how bad eso is, i would prefer playing a slightly upgraded bfa rather than eso how *** it is.
As it currently stands this game is a disgrace to the elder scrolls franchise.
At the moment this game is in the top 3 because it satisfies people that want fast combat that is similar to action combat in some ways, but wanna bet that if bdo didn't have as much of a p2w grind, and more and better pve content or if gw2 had some actual progression this game wouldn't be in the top 3, if they keep their promises on archeage, that game might actually take over in the next few years, granted, that is if eso doesn't actually fix the core problems.
Did you go back to wow because they do animation cancelling better then eso? Are all spells in Warcraft instant cast now? By the way, is global cool down still a thing in wow?
I think you commented a bit too early because i finished my thought on that, and it's quite frankly a really stupid point.
The games are fundamentally different and that is lazy thinking, and you know that, but you are not here to provide facts, you are here to make a point about how animation cancelling is bad for some reasons and you do not even understand the consequences of removing it from the game.
Honestly before this patch I did not care about animation cancelling. Doing over the top dps is/was not a priority for me. And for the people who liked it, good for them.
But these nerfs were targeted at the high end dps and they (Zos) did so without care for how it effects everyone else.
So what would be a way to tap down high end dps without effecting the common player? The obvious way, I feel, is animation cancelling. It is a technique utilized mostly be high end players.
If you can think of a different way to tone down high end dps WITHOUT effecting the dps of the common player, please share. I don’t care if animation canceling stays (although the concept of it does bother me) but if you have a better idea I am willing to hear and accept it.
Your premise is wrong to begin with, you want to bring down the top to the bottom? So basically what you are saying is *** all the people that actually put effort into learning things, this is why your premise is wrong to begin with.
This is not my premise. I don't want any nerfs at all. Zos has stated these changes (nerfs) are aimed at the endgame players.
They said so very bluntly.
They also said they don't care about how the changes effect people who log in just to "kill dragons".
Which they also said very bluntly.
I think this is stupid to punish common players for other people having "too high" of dps.
The solution is not to bring good players to the level of bad players, that will just leave you with a game that end game player will not want to play, because their effort is meaningless, the solution is to create a game that encourages people to become better, at the moment this game does not do that, hence why there are so few end game guilds that actually do stuff.
With these patch changes people doing super high dps will still be doing all the stuff they are doing now. But the people on the lower end of the spectrum will now be shut out of content. Is that healthy for the game?
If they want the 100k dps to go to 75k dps, I am just trying to suggest a way to do it with out the 20k dps falling to 15k. Can you think of a better way?
And is 75k and 20k dps on the "same level" to you?
Again I don't want any nerfs, but Zos does. I am just suggesting a way that minimizes the impact on lower end players. So come up with a solution that is better than mine.Eso suffers from massive amounts of bad players, more than any other game, and that is partially the fault of the game itself, because there aren't many information to access in game, i learned about animation cancelling randomly, they could have made a quest, and call it like training the troops, and there could have been a voice acted npc talking about how you can use your abilities and how to cancel animations or weave, just an idea out of my head.
This would solve quite a few things already, then again some players are beyond saving.
"Did you know you can swing your weapon without moving your hands? Here, let me show you how." Said the quest giver. (Yes, very immersive.)
Personally what I like most about Skyrim was how no one did any animations when in combat. I mean in ESO why have animations at all, we can just all stand around still having staring contests at bosses, that will save money on development. What I liked best when doing heroic Lich King was how our raid group hardly showed any animations at all. That is what made Wow great! /sarcasmThe point is to make a game that people join and enjoy for prolonged periods of time, so they can become good players, to do that you need to make information easily accessible, and encourage people to actually become better, otherwise you will have a game where people play for a few months to some years and then leave.
Animation cancelling is a technical glitch that the developers just did not care to correct. They did not fix it for the same reason they don't fix HRC, because it actually needs effort on their part. It's easier for them to say "sure, ok" then to actually make the game better.
It looks bad in game.
It feels like an exploit.
It's not intuitive.
And if your computer is not quick enough, it is impossible.
If high end players want to use it, fine. But if high end payers using it creates a reason for Zos to nerf common player dps who don't use it, that is a problem.
High end players use a lot of other methods to keep their dps high. (Bar swapping, etc.) A skill gap is not going to disappear because of animation cancelling going away.
But again it does not have to. Please, come up with a solution that fills Zos's "nerf high end player dps" priorities without stopping common players from doing content.
So you are not really looking for a solution, you are looking for a dream. Iv'e already given you a solution that is much better than nerfing the high end.
How to reduce the top tier damage without doing anything to the low end? You make the game uninteresting by removing anything that can give you an edge in battle, so out with animation cancelling, out with item sets, out with personal choice, you make it so spamming a single ability does equal damage compared to having a full fledged out rotation, remove synergies, remove off balance, remove dodge,remove block, you remove any incentive to get better at the game, and you rebalance all content based on the current status of the game.
Or you cap the damage, which is also a really bad solution, and quite frankly i don't know how they would do it.
What you don't like the game anymore now because it has absolutely 0 depth? Well this is what you asked for, you just didn't realize it.
The reduce the high end leads only to *** answers, because if you nerf damage you just nerf it for everyone, but the high end still does much more than the low end, so the only way to make things more equal, is to remove anything that gives you an edge in battle, and with that you killed the game so good job.
Is this the game you want? Fine, i will not be a part in it, when there are much better games.
You do not understand the reason why nerfs keep happening, which is why you seemingly put the fault on the players that are doing 100k damage, that is only a symptom iv'e already said what the reason is in previous posts i made, or at least a good majority of it, the fault basically boils down to the devs themselves.
You also said the usual bs about how animation cancelling is seemingly IMPOSSIBLE with a bad computer, dude, i can use animation cancelling with 300 ping, just the usual stuff you see on the forums honestly, people that understand frankly nothing talk about things that they don;t really understand.
Maybe some personal responsibility would be of use here, if you have a really bad connection than maybe mmos aren't for you, should everyone else lose because you can't keep up? I have a couple of ideas, one of them is to get better internet, if you can't than maybe you have to reevaluate your priorities, because it's most likely because you cannot afford it, and having high latency in a mmo is the last of your worries, if it is because you live in a town with really bad internet, well, life isn't fair and it doesn't fall on other people to lose out because of it, there are many ways of getting better internet, it's not necessarily fiber optics, and again, when you say things like this, you are not putting the fault where you should, performance has always been a problem in this game.
First, I like how you keep assuming my computer/internet connects are bad. It's very entertaining seeing you make wrong assumptions about people.
Second, nerfing the high end players is not my idea. (How hard is that to understand?) It is Zos stated goal. 100k dps players don't bother me, but it bothers Zos so that is why they are nerfing the dps. But they are doing it so lazily and without thought to how it effects everyone and that does bother me. This dot/aoe change is so lazy it feels like something they thought of on a morning commute, not three months of planning. And it is being implemented by a team that actually does not care how it effects the common player.
Your apparent "solution" ("the solution is to create a game that encourages people to become better") is basically "get good" which is laughable. Getting good is not some radical solution they can implement in game (not with their "blind fold and throw a dart" combat changes every three months). They tried with the spell suggestions, but there is an average dps and that average dps will now be substantially lower.
Which means overall the pool for players doing dps dependent content will go down as well. And that will frustrate the higher end players who will find less players for group content.
Apparently you are fine with fewer people doing group content? Because with lower dps fewer people will be doing dungeons and trials. Personally I am not, I want as many people to do dungeons and vet content as possible because that is how we get more of that content. but if you push the lower end dps out of it, that is what you will get.
Players who are struggling now are not going to get better, they are just going to see what ever progress they made wiped out and have no content to do. Players on the edge of the bubble will be left behind.
And all I did was try to think of something, ANYTHING , that will lower top end dps without punishing everyone else. To keep that pool of players doing the content at least somewhat stable. Something actually in game, that is programmable. Not some vague "maybe we can highlight that weird game developer approved glitch that no other MMO would implement in a game".
And lastly not everyone has a high end internet connection. Not everyone has the latest computer and not everyone has the best computer equipment. I know this because I was in several different trial groups across many guilds until Update 23 basically wiped them out. I have seen all players from high end to low, few people are investing a ton of real world money to play an MMO. Not everyone has unlimited budgets or live in areas where the internet is any good.
Me, I have an expensive computer and a great internet connection (I need them for work as I have large files I need to create on and send), but I know most players are not like me.
i'm gonna close it with this.
You did exactly what you accused me of, you thought that what i said was specifically related to you, it wasn't, only the part where i responded to your question about providing a solution is, the rest was a general statement, not aimed at you.
I know that when you respond to someone you think that the whole argument is about you people people, the brain is very egocentric, so whatever you say they take it as personal, but it wasn't.
I'm tired of repeating myself and thinking for other people, do your own thinking, find yourself the solution if you can, if you think that you can decrease the skill gap without also affecting the game negatively or close the gap without affecting also the low end, you are wrong.
"Maybe some personal responsibility would be of use here, if you have a really bad connection than maybe mmos aren't for you, should everyone else lose because you can't keep up?"
That sure sounds like it was referring to me.
Edit: How about;
"Maybe some personal responsibility would be of use here, if you have a player has a really bad connection than maybe mmos aren't for you that player, should everyone else lose because you some player can't keep up?"Edited by BlueRaven on October 17, 2019 2:52AM2 -
universal_wrath✭✭✭✭✭After watch the video of the devs talk, I can say for sure that dev don't play the game like player doing dungeon, trials, overland, and pvp stuff. Every cjange they did was from the forum and they are not even accurate about it. I mean, who the hell call for stone fiat to be rewoek as a spammable? I'm betting 90% of stam dk are ask for stam whip melee skill not some pop throw range skill. Stamina sorcerer never hit the mark, fot their identity, all stam sorcerer were asking for class spammavle and air atro or some sort of physical dmg class ultimate. That was what they needed most than adding boumd arment rework. Necromancer bugs were addressed but never fixed, just doing lazy work. If skeletons los target and stop and moving which is a bug, now they die faster so the bug does not last as longer, but it ia still there. Weapon aoes like endless hail and wall of elements are doing much more dmg than class abilities and can be enhaned to greately affect you dps more than you actual class abilities.
5 -
BattleAxe✭✭✭✭✭universal_wrath wrote: »After watch the video of the devs talk, I can say for sure that dev don't play the game like player doing dungeon, trials, overland, and pvp stuff. Every cjange they did was from the forum and they are not even accurate about it. I mean, who the hell call for stone fiat to be rewoek as a spammable? I'm betting 90% of stam dk are ask for stam whip melee skill not some pop throw range skill. Stamina sorcerer never hit the mark, fot their identity, all stam sorcerer were asking for class spammavle and air atro or some sort of physical dmg class ultimate. That was what they needed most than adding boumd arment rework. Necromancer bugs were addressed but never fixed, just doing lazy work. If skeletons los target and stop and moving which is a bug, now they die faster so the bug does not last as longer, but it ia still there. Weapon aoes like endless hail and wall of elements are doing much more dmg than class abilities and can be enhaned to greately affect you dps more than you actual class abilities.
This becomes more concerning when when someone who unless I’m mistaken is a class rep posts a video essentially bashing some of these threads in a YouTube video0 -
haelene✭✭✭✭✭
✭I just want to slide in and echo what some people are already saying.
I'm tired. This pendulum swing every few months is too much, especially when it takes that long to get a new set of gear and get my rotation down anyways. It isn't fun, it's a job.
Maybe if it didn't take months to collect gear. Maybe if it didn't take a month or so of practice to get the new rotation down. Maybe if everything wasn't a constant grind to catch up and regain what's lost every patch - maybe then it wouldn't be so bad. But the amount of intense back and forth changes mixed with the grind it's just... not fun any more. If I could enjoy the work I put in longer than a week, maybe it would be worth it.
To be clear, this is coming from a player who in no way chases meta - at all. I don't do vet trials (with a few exceptions), I don't care about score runs, and I certainly am not someone focused on the endgame. I duo dungeons with my wife (normal, some vet), do overland, and occasionally take part in pug trials or normal trials with my guilds.
If there was some stability in this game, instead of an intense sense of dread every patch I might actually invest more in endgame. I might care about score runs. Hell, it's not for lack of time - I'm a housewife. I'm just not interested in putting that much effort into something that will be torn away before I can really enjoy it.9 -
LiquidPony✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭josh.lackey_ESO wrote: »
Do you honestly think most people use animation canceling? Most players don’t know what it is.
It’s not a mechanic that is widely known nor is it a mechanic that people flock to eso for. No one is looking back at older elder scrolls games fondly because of animation cancelling. And no one is playing wow classic because they did animation canceling better.
You take out animation canceling and then adjust (upwards) the damage the actual attacks do.
People who are doing tremendous dps use it, that is why they do tremendous dps. The rest of the players don’t.
Most players use it without even realizing it, sure they may not use it to the degree of very good players but that's beside the point.
The point is that people that ask for the removal of ac, don't have any clue what they are asking for.
Honestly, at this point i want the game to become better but i don;t have much hope for it, so for all i care fine get your animation cancelling removed, and play this game by yourself and maybe 10 people in the next few years.
Next big mmo that comes out and doesn't actually disappoint and eso is *** over, if they keep their promises on archeage and wow becomes better, you can kiss this game goodbye, because most don't play eso because it's a good mmo, they play it because there is no other good alternative.
Hell iv'e already left, i play wow, the bfa expansion by the way, this is just how bad eso is, i would prefer playing a slightly upgraded bfa rather than eso how *** it is.
As it currently stands this game is a disgrace to the elder scrolls franchise.
At the moment this game is in the top 3 because it satisfies people that want fast combat that is similar to action combat in some ways, but wanna bet that if bdo didn't have as much of a p2w grind, and more and better pve content or if gw2 had some actual progression this game wouldn't be in the top 3, if they keep their promises on archeage, that game might actually take over in the next few years, granted, that is if eso doesn't actually fix the core problems.
Did you go back to wow because they do animation cancelling better then eso? Are all spells in Warcraft instant cast now? By the way, is global cool down still a thing in wow?
I think you commented a bit too early because i finished my thought on that, and it's quite frankly a really stupid point.
The games are fundamentally different and that is lazy thinking, and you know that, but you are not here to provide facts, you are here to make a point about how animation cancelling is bad for some reasons and you do not even understand the consequences of removing it from the game.
Honestly before this patch I did not care about animation cancelling. Doing over the top dps is/was not a priority for me. And for the people who liked it, good for them.
But these nerfs were targeted at the high end dps and they (Zos) did so without care for how it effects everyone else.
So what would be a way to tap down high end dps without effecting the common player? The obvious way, I feel, is animation cancelling. It is a technique utilized mostly be high end players.
If you can think of a different way to tone down high end dps WITHOUT effecting the dps of the common player, please share. I don’t care if animation canceling stays (although the concept of it does bother me) but if you have a better idea I am willing to hear and accept it.
Your premise is wrong to begin with, you want to bring down the top to the bottom? So basically what you are saying is *** all the people that actually put effort into learning things, this is why your premise is wrong to begin with.
This is not my premise. I don't want any nerfs at all. Zos has stated these changes (nerfs) are aimed at the endgame players.
They said so very bluntly.
They also said they don't care about how the changes effect people who log in just to "kill dragons".
Which they also said very bluntly.
I think this is stupid to punish common players for other people having "too high" of dps.
The solution is not to bring good players to the level of bad players, that will just leave you with a game that end game player will not want to play, because their effort is meaningless, the solution is to create a game that encourages people to become better, at the moment this game does not do that, hence why there are so few end game guilds that actually do stuff.
With these patch changes people doing super high dps will still be doing all the stuff they are doing now. But the people on the lower end of the spectrum will now be shut out of content. Is that healthy for the game?
If they want the 100k dps to go to 75k dps, I am just trying to suggest a way to do it with out the 20k dps falling to 15k. Can you think of a better way?
And is 75k and 20k dps on the "same level" to you?
Again I don't want any nerfs, but Zos does. I am just suggesting a way that minimizes the impact on lower end players. So come up with a solution that is better than mine.Eso suffers from massive amounts of bad players, more than any other game, and that is partially the fault of the game itself, because there aren't many information to access in game, i learned about animation cancelling randomly, they could have made a quest, and call it like training the troops, and there could have been a voice acted npc talking about how you can use your abilities and how to cancel animations or weave, just an idea out of my head.
This would solve quite a few things already, then again some players are beyond saving.
"Did you know you can swing your weapon without moving your hands? Here, let me show you how." Said the quest giver. (Yes, very immersive.)
Personally what I like most about Skyrim was how no one did any animations when in combat. I mean in ESO why have animations at all, we can just all stand around still having staring contests at bosses, that will save money on development. What I liked best when doing heroic Lich King was how our raid group hardly showed any animations at all. That is what made Wow great! /sarcasmThe point is to make a game that people join and enjoy for prolonged periods of time, so they can become good players, to do that you need to make information easily accessible, and encourage people to actually become better, otherwise you will have a game where people play for a few months to some years and then leave.
Animation cancelling is a technical glitch that the developers just did not care to correct. They did not fix it for the same reason they don't fix HRC, because it actually needs effort on their part. It's easier for them to say "sure, ok" then to actually make the game better.
It looks bad in game.
It feels like an exploit.
It's not intuitive.
And if your computer is not quick enough, it is impossible.
If high end players want to use it, fine. But if high end payers using it creates a reason for Zos to nerf common player dps who don't use it, that is a problem.
High end players use a lot of other methods to keep their dps high. (Bar swapping, etc.) A skill gap is not going to disappear because of animation cancelling going away.
But again it does not have to. Please, come up with a solution that fills Zos's "nerf high end player dps" priorities without stopping common players from doing content.
So you are not really looking for a solution, you are looking for a dream. Iv'e already given you a solution that is much better than nerfing the high end.
How to reduce the top tier damage without doing anything to the low end? You make the game uninteresting by removing anything that can give you an edge in battle, so out with animation cancelling, out with item sets, out with personal choice, you make it so spamming a single ability does equal damage compared to having a full fledged out rotation, remove synergies, remove off balance, remove dodge,remove block, you remove any incentive to get better at the game, and you rebalance all content based on the current status of the game.
Or you cap the damage, which is also a really bad solution, and quite frankly i don't know how they would do it.
What you don't like the game anymore now because it has absolutely 0 depth? Well this is what you asked for, you just didn't realize it.
The reduce the high end leads only to *** answers, because if you nerf damage you just nerf it for everyone, but the high end still does much more than the low end, so the only way to make things more equal, is to remove anything that gives you an edge in battle, and with that you killed the game so good job.
Is this the game you want? Fine, i will not be a part in it, when there are much better games.
You do not understand the reason why nerfs keep happening, which is why you seemingly put the fault on the players that are doing 100k damage, that is only a symptom iv'e already said what the reason is in previous posts i made, or at least a good majority of it, the fault basically boils down to the devs themselves.
You also said the usual bs about how animation cancelling is seemingly IMPOSSIBLE with a bad computer, dude, i can use animation cancelling with 300 ping, just the usual stuff you see on the forums honestly, people that understand frankly nothing talk about things that they don;t really understand.
Maybe some personal responsibility would be of use here, if you have a really bad connection than maybe mmos aren't for you, should everyone else lose because you can't keep up? I have a couple of ideas, one of them is to get better internet, if you can't than maybe you have to reevaluate your priorities, because it's most likely because you cannot afford it, and having high latency in a mmo is the last of your worries, if it is because you live in a town with really bad internet, well, life isn't fair and it doesn't fall on other people to lose out because of it, there are many ways of getting better internet, it's not necessarily fiber optics, and again, when you say things like this, you are not putting the fault where you should, performance has always been a problem in this game.
First, I like how you keep assuming my computer/internet connects are bad. It's very entertaining seeing you make wrong assumptions about people.
Second, nerfing the high end players is not my idea. (How hard is that to understand?) It is Zos stated goal. 100k dps players don't bother me, but it bothers Zos so that is why they are nerfing the dps. But they are doing it so lazily and without thought to how it effects everyone and that does bother me. This dot/aoe change is so lazy it feels like something they thought of on a morning commute, not three months of planning. And it is being implemented by a team that actually does not care how it effects the common player.
Your apparent "solution" ("the solution is to create a game that encourages people to become better") is basically "get good" which is laughable. Getting good is not some radical solution they can implement in game (not with their "blind fold and throw a dart" combat changes every three months). They tried with the spell suggestions, but there is an average dps and that average dps will now be substantially lower.
Which means overall the pool for players doing dps dependent content will go down as well. And that will frustrate the higher end players who will find less players for group content.
Apparently you are fine with fewer people doing group content? Because with lower dps fewer people will be doing dungeons and trials. Personally I am not, I want as many people to do dungeons and vet content as possible because that is how we get more of that content. but if you push the lower end dps out of it, that is what you will get.
Players who are struggling now are not going to get better, they are just going to see what ever progress they made wiped out and have no content to do. Players on the edge of the bubble will be left behind.
And all I did was try to think of something, ANYTHING , that will lower top end dps without punishing everyone else. To keep that pool of players doing the content at least somewhat stable. Something actually in game, that is programmable. Not some vague "maybe we can highlight that weird game developer approved glitch that no other MMO would implement in a game".
And lastly not everyone has a high end internet connection. Not everyone has the latest computer and not everyone has the best computer equipment. I know this because I was in several different trial groups across many guilds until Update 23 basically wiped them out. I have seen all players from high end to low, few people are investing a ton of real world money to play an MMO. Not everyone has unlimited budgets or live in areas where the internet is any good.
Me, I have an expensive computer and a great internet connection (I need them for work as I have large files I need to create on and send), but I know most players are not like me.
It is literally not possible to remove "animation cancelling" from ESO without completely rebuilding every bit of combat and content in the game.
You want to be able to block when an attack's coming your way, without waiting for a second or more for an animation to finish, right?
You want to be able to swap to your S&B bar when a heavy attack's incoming, without waiting a second or more for an animation to finish, right?
Most skills are instant cast. Instant means instant, it does not mean "after a 1-second animation".
Animation cancelling will be a part of ESO combat until they shut the servers down. Asking for its removal is a pointless exercise, mostly done by people who don't actually understand what they're asking for.3 -
halucin0g3n✭✭✭✭josh.lackey_ESO wrote: »
Do you honestly think most people use animation canceling? Most players don’t know what it is.
It’s not a mechanic that is widely known nor is it a mechanic that people flock to eso for. No one is looking back at older elder scrolls games fondly because of animation cancelling. And no one is playing wow classic because they did animation canceling better.
You take out animation canceling and then adjust (upwards) the damage the actual attacks do.
People who are doing tremendous dps use it, that is why they do tremendous dps. The rest of the players don’t.
Most players use it without even realizing it, sure they may not use it to the degree of very good players but that's beside the point.
The point is that people that ask for the removal of ac, don't have any clue what they are asking for.
Honestly, at this point i want the game to become better but i don;t have much hope for it, so for all i care fine get your animation cancelling removed, and play this game by yourself and maybe 10 people in the next few years.
Next big mmo that comes out and doesn't actually disappoint and eso is *** over, if they keep their promises on archeage and wow becomes better, you can kiss this game goodbye, because most don't play eso because it's a good mmo, they play it because there is no other good alternative.
Hell iv'e already left, i play wow, the bfa expansion by the way, this is just how bad eso is, i would prefer playing a slightly upgraded bfa rather than eso how *** it is.
As it currently stands this game is a disgrace to the elder scrolls franchise.
At the moment this game is in the top 3 because it satisfies people that want fast combat that is similar to action combat in some ways, but wanna bet that if bdo didn't have as much of a p2w grind, and more and better pve content or if gw2 had some actual progression this game wouldn't be in the top 3, if they keep their promises on archeage, that game might actually take over in the next few years, granted, that is if eso doesn't actually fix the core problems.
Did you go back to wow because they do animation cancelling better then eso? Are all spells in Warcraft instant cast now? By the way, is global cool down still a thing in wow?
I think you commented a bit too early because i finished my thought on that, and it's quite frankly a really stupid point.
The games are fundamentally different and that is lazy thinking, and you know that, but you are not here to provide facts, you are here to make a point about how animation cancelling is bad for some reasons and you do not even understand the consequences of removing it from the game.
Honestly before this patch I did not care about animation cancelling. Doing over the top dps is/was not a priority for me. And for the people who liked it, good for them.
But these nerfs were targeted at the high end dps and they (Zos) did so without care for how it effects everyone else.
So what would be a way to tap down high end dps without effecting the common player? The obvious way, I feel, is animation cancelling. It is a technique utilized mostly be high end players.
If you can think of a different way to tone down high end dps WITHOUT effecting the dps of the common player, please share. I don’t care if animation canceling stays (although the concept of it does bother me) but if you have a better idea I am willing to hear and accept it.
Your premise is wrong to begin with, you want to bring down the top to the bottom? So basically what you are saying is *** all the people that actually put effort into learning things, this is why your premise is wrong to begin with.
This is not my premise. I don't want any nerfs at all. Zos has stated these changes (nerfs) are aimed at the endgame players.
They said so very bluntly.
They also said they don't care about how the changes effect people who log in just to "kill dragons".
Which they also said very bluntly.
I think this is stupid to punish common players for other people having "too high" of dps.
The solution is not to bring good players to the level of bad players, that will just leave you with a game that end game player will not want to play, because their effort is meaningless, the solution is to create a game that encourages people to become better, at the moment this game does not do that, hence why there are so few end game guilds that actually do stuff.
With these patch changes people doing super high dps will still be doing all the stuff they are doing now. But the people on the lower end of the spectrum will now be shut out of content. Is that healthy for the game?
If they want the 100k dps to go to 75k dps, I am just trying to suggest a way to do it with out the 20k dps falling to 15k. Can you think of a better way?
And is 75k and 20k dps on the "same level" to you?
Again I don't want any nerfs, but Zos does. I am just suggesting a way that minimizes the impact on lower end players. So come up with a solution that is better than mine.Eso suffers from massive amounts of bad players, more than any other game, and that is partially the fault of the game itself, because there aren't many information to access in game, i learned about animation cancelling randomly, they could have made a quest, and call it like training the troops, and there could have been a voice acted npc talking about how you can use your abilities and how to cancel animations or weave, just an idea out of my head.
This would solve quite a few things already, then again some players are beyond saving.
"Did you know you can swing your weapon without moving your hands? Here, let me show you how." Said the quest giver. (Yes, very immersive.)
Personally what I like most about Skyrim was how no one did any animations when in combat. I mean in ESO why have animations at all, we can just all stand around still having staring contests at bosses, that will save money on development. What I liked best when doing heroic Lich King was how our raid group hardly showed any animations at all. That is what made Wow great! /sarcasmThe point is to make a game that people join and enjoy for prolonged periods of time, so they can become good players, to do that you need to make information easily accessible, and encourage people to actually become better, otherwise you will have a game where people play for a few months to some years and then leave.
Animation cancelling is a technical glitch that the developers just did not care to correct. They did not fix it for the same reason they don't fix HRC, because it actually needs effort on their part. It's easier for them to say "sure, ok" then to actually make the game better.
It looks bad in game.
It feels like an exploit.
It's not intuitive.
And if your computer is not quick enough, it is impossible.
If high end players want to use it, fine. But if high end payers using it creates a reason for Zos to nerf common player dps who don't use it, that is a problem.
High end players use a lot of other methods to keep their dps high. (Bar swapping, etc.) A skill gap is not going to disappear because of animation cancelling going away.
But again it does not have to. Please, come up with a solution that fills Zos's "nerf high end player dps" priorities without stopping common players from doing content.
So you are not really looking for a solution, you are looking for a dream. Iv'e already given you a solution that is much better than nerfing the high end.
How to reduce the top tier damage without doing anything to the low end? You make the game uninteresting by removing anything that can give you an edge in battle, so out with animation cancelling, out with item sets, out with personal choice, you make it so spamming a single ability does equal damage compared to having a full fledged out rotation, remove synergies, remove off balance, remove dodge,remove block, you remove any incentive to get better at the game, and you rebalance all content based on the current status of the game.
Or you cap the damage, which is also a really bad solution, and quite frankly i don't know how they would do it.
What you don't like the game anymore now because it has absolutely 0 depth? Well this is what you asked for, you just didn't realize it.
The reduce the high end leads only to *** answers, because if you nerf damage you just nerf it for everyone, but the high end still does much more than the low end, so the only way to make things more equal, is to remove anything that gives you an edge in battle, and with that you killed the game so good job.
Is this the game you want? Fine, i will not be a part in it, when there are much better games.
You do not understand the reason why nerfs keep happening, which is why you seemingly put the fault on the players that are doing 100k damage, that is only a symptom iv'e already said what the reason is in previous posts i made, or at least a good majority of it, the fault basically boils down to the devs themselves.
You also said the usual bs about how animation cancelling is seemingly IMPOSSIBLE with a bad computer, dude, i can use animation cancelling with 300 ping, just the usual stuff you see on the forums honestly, people that understand frankly nothing talk about things that they don;t really understand.
Maybe some personal responsibility would be of use here, if you have a really bad connection than maybe mmos aren't for you, should everyone else lose because you can't keep up? I have a couple of ideas, one of them is to get better internet, if you can't than maybe you have to reevaluate your priorities, because it's most likely because you cannot afford it, and having high latency in a mmo is the last of your worries, if it is because you live in a town with really bad internet, well, life isn't fair and it doesn't fall on other people to lose out because of it, there are many ways of getting better internet, it's not necessarily fiber optics, and again, when you say things like this, you are not putting the fault where you should, performance has always been a problem in this game.
First, I like how you keep assuming my computer/internet connects are bad. It's very entertaining seeing you make wrong assumptions about people.
Second, nerfing the high end players is not my idea. (How hard is that to understand?) It is Zos stated goal. 100k dps players don't bother me, but it bothers Zos so that is why they are nerfing the dps. But they are doing it so lazily and without thought to how it effects everyone and that does bother me. This dot/aoe change is so lazy it feels like something they thought of on a morning commute, not three months of planning. And it is being implemented by a team that actually does not care how it effects the common player.
Your apparent "solution" ("the solution is to create a game that encourages people to become better") is basically "get good" which is laughable. Getting good is not some radical solution they can implement in game (not with their "blind fold and throw a dart" combat changes every three months). They tried with the spell suggestions, but there is an average dps and that average dps will now be substantially lower.
Which means overall the pool for players doing dps dependent content will go down as well. And that will frustrate the higher end players who will find less players for group content.
Apparently you are fine with fewer people doing group content? Because with lower dps fewer people will be doing dungeons and trials. Personally I am not, I want as many people to do dungeons and vet content as possible because that is how we get more of that content. but if you push the lower end dps out of it, that is what you will get.
Players who are struggling now are not going to get better, they are just going to see what ever progress they made wiped out and have no content to do. Players on the edge of the bubble will be left behind.
And all I did was try to think of something, ANYTHING , that will lower top end dps without punishing everyone else. To keep that pool of players doing the content at least somewhat stable. Something actually in game, that is programmable. Not some vague "maybe we can highlight that weird game developer approved glitch that no other MMO would implement in a game".
And lastly not everyone has a high end internet connection. Not everyone has the latest computer and not everyone has the best computer equipment. I know this because I was in several different trial groups across many guilds until Update 23 basically wiped them out. I have seen all players from high end to low, few people are investing a ton of real world money to play an MMO. Not everyone has unlimited budgets or live in areas where the internet is any good.
Me, I have an expensive computer and a great internet connection (I need them for work as I have large files I need to create on and send), but I know most players are not like me.
i'm gonna close it with this.
You did exactly what you accused me of, you thought that what i said was specifically related to you, it wasn't, only the part where i responded to your question about providing a solution is, the rest was a general statement, not aimed at you.
I know that when you respond to someone you think that the whole argument is about you people people, the brain is very egocentric, so whatever you say they take it as personal, but it wasn't.
I'm tired of repeating myself and thinking for other people, do your own thinking, find yourself the solution if you can, if you think that you can decrease the skill gap without also affecting the game negatively or close the gap without affecting also the low end, you are wrong.
As i said before, they can close the gap by removing anything that gives good player an advantage over bad players or by capping the dps which is almost equally as bad, that is it, they can nerf sets that are used by the high end mostly, but then they ruin any incentive to get better gear, if you nerf abilities, you nerf equally across the board, so that is not a solution to that problem, as i said, there is no good solution for this, only varying degrees of ***.
If this is the game that zos envisions, then it's not for me, the fact is that they cannot really do it without destroying the game also, which is why i said "you don't want a solution, you want a perfect dream where everything works regardless".
The only real solution to this problem, that leads to objectively the best result is to make people care about getting good, to make the game so good, that people wanna improve because they wanna experience all the content in the game, this is not the way to do it, constantly ignoring the core problems the game has, and delaying facing the problem another day is not the way to do it. At that point if you still do not care, then don;t come to the forums complaining about how you are a lamb to the slaughter in pvp.
The matter of fact is that getting good is really not that hard, if you really, and i mean really suck at the game is because you haven;t bothered one bit, or you have coordination problems, like physical problems.
Man, you have no idea what you`re barking about. BlueRaven is right, disabling animation canceling or some weaving cool down or such, will stop high-end DPS reaching those insane numbers ZOS is trying to prevent. Nerfing all skills and passives will not get anyone anywhere.5
