Is using Ad-ons is cheating?

pelle412

Davor wrote: »

Since in my opinion, Quality of Life issues make a game easier to play, that is an advantage, no matter how small, is an advantage over someone who doesn't use it. So any advantage no matter how small is a cheat.

Addons can be used by anyone playing on the same platform as you. The choice to use it or not is just that, a choice. A cheat would be an advantage you had that other players could not use. That isn't the case here.

You could make the same argument about any QoL options in the game's settings menu such as combat text, ground placement of AoEs and such. If your opponent doesn't use them, are you cheating if you do?

StormeReigns

Yay. My essential tremors, being deaf and rheumatoid arthritis makes me a cheater according to the op cause I use a QoL add-on for subtitles....

tallenn

I see three separate questions:

Do Addons give an advantage? Yes, absolutely.

Is it an unfair advantage? No. Given that everyone has the same opportunity to use the exact same Addons (on PC, but on console, NO ONE has the advantage), it's not unfair. Anyone (or no one) can gain the same advantage; thus, not unfair.

Is it cheating? Absolutely not. Cheating implies that the advantage is against the rules, as established by the authority; in this case, ZOS.

Ackwalan

There have been add-on that went to far, so ZOS would change the API for what information was available. The problem is, not all add-ons are public, which can give the people using the 'hidden' add-on an unfair advantage.

idk

tallenn wrote: »

I see three separate questions:

Do Addons give an advantage? Yes, absolutely.

Is it an unfair advantage? No. Given that everyone has the same opportunity to use the exact same Addons (on PC, but on console, NO ONE has the advantage), it's not unfair. Anyone (or no one) can gain the same advantage; thus, not unfair.

Is it cheating? Absolutely not. Cheating implies that the advantage is against the rules, as established by the authority; in this case, ZOS.

This says it well. However, OP attempted to frame the discussion around the idea of cheating as the title sets the tone.

Donny_Vito

Ackwalan wrote: »

There have been add-on that went to far, so ZOS would change the API for what information was available. The problem is, not all add-ons are public, which can give the people using the 'hidden' add-on an unfair advantage.

Interesting. So you're saying that there are private add-ons which are not made available to the general public? If so, that tears holes in some of the other arguments that add-ons are fair game because everyone can access them. I still don't think people are cheating, but if this is true I think it changes the landscape. It is possible that players have an unfair advantage. Granted, they used their own time and energy to develop this add-on which anyone could have done themselves (theoretically, if they acquired the knowledge to do so).

xxthir13enxx

No but it should be understood that ZoS does block add-ons they consider to take unfair liberties or unbalance gameplay.
Like the one that warned players of incoming attack and so on

Dawnblade

Access to and use of an advantage is not the same thing as cheating.

Cheating in ESO is whatever ZOS establishes as being against the rules of the game.

Add-ons are allowed by ZOS - they may or may not convey an advantage, but use of them is not cheating.

gamergirldk

NO since we dont have cross platform u cant compared pc to console.

Im tired of consol players that come here to whine, get a damm pc and u can have addons that just the way it is.

Dread_Viking

clear solution zeni need to make their own add-on client with green lit add-ons

VaranisArano

Donny_Vito wrote: »

Ackwalan wrote: »

There have been add-on that went to far, so ZOS would change the API for what information was available. The problem is, not all add-ons are public, which can give the people using the 'hidden' add-on an unfair advantage.

Interesting. So you're saying that there are private add-ons which are not made available to the general public? If so, that tears holes in some of the other arguments that add-ons are fair game because everyone can access them. I still don't think people are cheating, but if this is true I think it changes the landscape. It is possible that players have an unfair advantage. Granted, they used their own time and energy to develop this add-on which anyone could have done themselves (theoretically, if they acquired the knowledge to do so).

"Private" addons are an odd thing.

They aren't common, and generally only used by the people who actually developed them. Crucially, they use the same API available to everyone else - so even if they aren't publically available outside of a small group, they are still allowed by ZOS.

So its still a level playing field, in terms of everyone has access to the same API as everyone else. The players aren't really gaining any advantage that ZOS didn't make available to everyone on PC - if everyone had the skills to use it. We could, if we wanted to, learn to make addons ourselves to use the same features.

So even private addons aren't actually cheating, in the sense of "breaking the TOS-type cheating". They still use the API as allowed by ZOS.

If ZOS mandated that all addons had to be publically available, that would be a different story, but to my knowledge, ZOS doesn't. So the privacy of addons is a moot point in terms of "cheating" from the viewpoint of the TOS.

From a subjective viewpoint, that's maybe a different story.

InvitationNotFound

VaranisArano wrote: »

Donny_Vito wrote: »

Ackwalan wrote: »

There have been add-on that went to far, so ZOS would change the API for what information was available. The problem is, not all add-ons are public, which can give the people using the 'hidden' add-on an unfair advantage.

Interesting. So you're saying that there are private add-ons which are not made available to the general public? If so, that tears holes in some of the other arguments that add-ons are fair game because everyone can access them. I still don't think people are cheating, but if this is true I think it changes the landscape. It is possible that players have an unfair advantage. Granted, they used their own time and energy to develop this add-on which anyone could have done themselves (theoretically, if they acquired the knowledge to do so).

"Private" addons are an odd thing.

They aren't common, and generally only used by the people who actually developed them. Crucially, they use the same API available to everyone else - so even if they aren't publically available outside of a small group, they are still allowed by ZOS.

So its still a level playing field, in terms of everyone has access to the same API as everyone else. The players aren't really gaining any advantage that ZOS didn't make available to everyone on PC - if everyone had the skills to use it. We could, if we wanted to, learn to make addons ourselves to use the same features.

So even private addons aren't actually cheating, in the sense of "breaking the TOS-type cheating". They still use the API as allowed by ZOS.

If ZOS mandated that all addons had to be publically available, that would be a different story, but to my knowledge, ZOS doesn't. So the privacy of addons is a moot point in terms of "cheating" from the viewpoint of the TOS.

From a subjective viewpoint, that's maybe a different story.

Of course there are private addons. Nobody can force you to publish it on esoui / minion (do you want to be flooded with garbage and half finished addons?).

Yet, the API is there for everyone to use.

E.g. my last addon was in work for almost two years before I've released it. At the beginning it wasn't anything I've considered worth releasing. When it became bigger I asked a few players / guilds if they could run it and provide feedback before public release (without that, it would have become a pain in regards of change requests and feedback). So I consider it now stable and in a good state. During the phase where i was developing features it was sometimes ahead of publicly available things, but in most cases after a few weeks or month, other people published something similar.

Currently I'm aware of 2 addons which aren't public (or partially not public - and i do not have access to them). Do I consider this cheating or an issue? No, not at all. Sooner or later, these features will be publicly available (and if you want to code them yourself, go ahead, nobody prevents you from doing so. Everyone has access to the same API and features). And most importantly, an AddOn doesn't make a bad player a good player. I haven't seen a single fight where a group wiped another group just because they were using an addon. Same applies for player vs. player.

So, no, I do not even consider private addons as cheating.

Dracofyre

not quiet as cheating, if you have alts and cant remember where the books and lore located. a pain to find without it.
i like tracking addons.

only thing that cheating, harvestbots, PvP hostile tracking to find 'isolated" players in cyrodiil if they are doing personal quests or fishing for achievements, and "nirnhoned alert" where it may spawn and make beelined to that node.

addons that okay to me, fish tracking list, books, harvest node, treasure nodes, and map locator X finder, save time looking up on websites and when i forget where the spot was.
those survey and buried treasure maps are too vague.

InvitationNotFound

Dracofyre wrote: »

...

only thing that cheating, harvestbots, PvP hostile tracking to find 'isolated" players in cyrodiil if they are doing personal quests or fishing for achievements, and "nirnhoned alert" where it may spawn and make beelined to that node.

...

what the hell?
Harvestbot?
PvP Hostile Tracking?
Nirnhoned Alert?

Never heard of any of them. Are you sure you're talking about addons and not some third party crap (which is an issue anyway)?

VaranisArano

InvitationNotFound wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Donny_Vito wrote: »

Ackwalan wrote: »

There have been add-on that went to far, so ZOS would change the API for what information was available. The problem is, not all add-ons are public, which can give the people using the 'hidden' add-on an unfair advantage.

Interesting. So you're saying that there are private add-ons which are not made available to the general public? If so, that tears holes in some of the other arguments that add-ons are fair game because everyone can access them. I still don't think people are cheating, but if this is true I think it changes the landscape. It is possible that players have an unfair advantage. Granted, they used their own time and energy to develop this add-on which anyone could have done themselves (theoretically, if they acquired the knowledge to do so).

"Private" addons are an odd thing.

They aren't common, and generally only used by the people who actually developed them. Crucially, they use the same API available to everyone else - so even if they aren't publically available outside of a small group, they are still allowed by ZOS.

So its still a level playing field, in terms of everyone has access to the same API as everyone else. The players aren't really gaining any advantage that ZOS didn't make available to everyone on PC - if everyone had the skills to use it. We could, if we wanted to, learn to make addons ourselves to use the same features.

So even private addons aren't actually cheating, in the sense of "breaking the TOS-type cheating". They still use the API as allowed by ZOS.

If ZOS mandated that all addons had to be publically available, that would be a different story, but to my knowledge, ZOS doesn't. So the privacy of addons is a moot point in terms of "cheating" from the viewpoint of the TOS.

From a subjective viewpoint, that's maybe a different story.

Of course there are private addons. Nobody can force you to publish it on esoui / minion (do you want to be flooded with garbage and half finished addons?).

Yet, the API is there for everyone to use.

E.g. my last addon was in work for almost two years before I've released it. At the beginning it wasn't anything I've considered worth releasing. When it became bigger I asked a few players / guilds if they could run it and provide feedback before public release (without that, it would have become a pain in regards of change requests and feedback). So I consider it now stable and in a good state. During the phase where i was developing features it was sometimes ahead of publicly available things, but in most cases after a few weeks or month, other people published something similar.

Currently I'm aware of 2 addons which aren't public (or partially not public - and i do not have access to them). Do I consider this cheating or an issue? No, not at all. Sooner or later, these features will be publicly available (and if you want to code them yourself, go ahead, nobody prevents you from doing so. Everyone has access to the same API and features). And most importantly, an AddOn doesn't make a bad player a good player. I haven't seen a single fight where a group wiped another group just because they were using an addon. Same applies for player vs. player.

So, no, I do not even consider private addons as cheating.

Thanks for providing more insight into addon development and why "Private" addons might not be publicly available!

I agree that its definitely not cheating under the TOS, and that the API is open for everyone.

Davor

Env_t wrote: »

Env_t wrote: »

Davor wrote: »

Bethesda considers ad-ons as cheating

proof? any official Bethesda quote pls
right now i can find only this
and its far away from what you said

so OP, will you answer to my post?
or nothing to say?

What am I suppose to say? I am not sure what your point is? I thought I have addressed it. Then again, with all the multi quote going on, not sure who this is addressed to. OP is original post or original poster? If it is at me, then I have already said it.

I already acknowledged that Zenimax Online says it's OK, so it's not cheating. I guess you want me to say from Bethesda. All I can go by is their EULA and or ToS contract we signed up. If I remember correctly we are not allowed to use any third party software. If I am wrong, then I am wrong.

Picture you showed doesn't disprove or approve anything. Just a warning if you use mods it may make Fallout 76 not playable.

So not sure what you would like me to say?

Davor

VaranisArano wrote: »

Davor wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Davor wrote: »

Jhalin wrote: »

Imagine walking into an open note test and saying everyone’s notes were cheating because you failed to bring your notes.

That’s the OP

How is that? Just because you say so doesn't make it so. Again, give examples as I said before to show how someone is wrong. In this case how am I wrong? Just trying to shame? I don't understand what you ment. Love an explanation.

Its an analogy. PC and Console are two different classrooms. PC gets an open note test. Console gets a closed note test (thanks to their Console providers not providing PTS, ESO Logs, or add-ons). Everyone knew that ahead of time when they bought ESO for their platform.

On the PC Open note test, everyone is allowed to have their notes out to get answers. There are no extra prizes for not bringing your notes except for maybe feeling smug that "I didnt need my notes, even though they were totally allowed." If you call students using their notes "cheaters", they are going to laugh, because its an open note test. Notes are 100% allowed, and your grade isn't somehow more valid because you didnt use your notes. In fact, if you missed answers because you didnt use your notes, its a valid question to ask "You know its an open note test, right?"

Tank you for this. You mean open book test. I never herd of open note test. OK this makes sense now. Never herd that expression before. For us in Ontario at least back in the day it was "open book test". We hardly ever had them. Notes were on paper and were never allowed to be brought. This is why it seemed so weird for me.

Well here is one. Not sure how it is else where in the world, but here in Canada, or at least in Ontario, if we win a prize we need to answer a skill testing question with no help with any device, digital or what ever or have someone help us and need to do it on our own in a specific amount of time.

Other parts of the world they can use a calculator if they need to answer a question to get a prize. Is it a cheat? No, because it is allowed, BUT for me it would be an "unfair" advantage though because I don't get to use the calculator.

I curious, what would be the proper term, or wording we should use? Playing the same game with different rules. Unfair? Unfair advantage?

There's just no point in comparing the two tests.

The way I see it, and I am not saying you are wrong just to show my opinion and at least understand why I am thinking this. Reason I see there is comparing is because I believe when some people say "git gud" or others I have seen said "use this app it will help you in combat" and most times people will say "I am on console" or others just don't want to use apps and play the game on how Zenimax Online wants us to.


So how is it fair for someone using ad-ons and then tell someone get better only because they use it? For people who don't do this, which is most I believe, it's a non issue but I do laugh at a person who thinks they are good just because they use an ad-ons that helps them and without it, they can't play as good.

I play better on PC because I have ad-ons I use, but on console game is a bit harder because of no ad-ons. That is why I feel like I am cheating on PC. Even if it's legal, it does for me feel like cheating. When I get all the achievements for finding the skyshards, it feels good, but knowing I need to look at Google or someone using an ad-on, it doesn't feel good for me because they needed help to find it.

Nothing wrong to cheat in single player games because it ads fun to the game. Thing is once SOMEONE does try and tell someone else to get better is using an ad-on that is different. That is getting help not on your own.


Just to make clear which it seems I didn't do, I am not calling anyone a cheater, saying it is cheating and we shouldn't do it. For me, at that moment of time, I felt I was, and then got thinking were the people on the other forum correct after all, when I was in the shoes of the camp saying "it's not cheating". Were they correct after all?

Doesn't matter, I just thought we all could have a good conversation and talk about something different for once. Surprised we didn't have anyone say "nerf sorcerers" or "stop nerfing things". Nice to discuss something else for once.

I'm going to drop the Open Note/Open Book test analogy, since I suspect its not super helpful at this point, amd speak directly to the situation at hand.

I get that your issue is that you went from console to PC and now you feel like its cheating for you to use add-ons.

I also get that you really hate other players telling people to "git gud" in general and it annoys you that PC players say that to console players when PC players can use add-ons.

Those are two separate issues and I'm going to address them as such.


1. PC vs Console "Cheating"
On Console, no one has access to add-ons and so everyone is on a level playing field.
On PC, everyone has access to add-ons and so everyone is on a level playing field.

PC and Console arent even playing on the same field. Ever! PC has huge advantages over console because of PTS Access and ESO Logs, even before we talk about add-ons. (I have an earlier comment explaining those advantages in greater detail.)

So when you swapped from Console to PC, you swapped from an environment where no one has access to add-ons to one where everyone has access to add-ons.

Were you cheating? No. You remained on a level playing field with the people you were playing with. (Unless you self-impose a challenge of not playing with add-ons, but ESO doesnt award prizes for that.)

Did it feel like you were cheating?
Sure. You went from Vanilla ESO to Non-Vanilla ESO and didn't take into account that everyone on PC has the opportunity to play Non-Vanilla ESO. I'm not surprised you felt like you were cheating, even though ZOS allows you to use addons and you remained on a level playing field by using add-ons on PC.

That's your feeling. Its subjective, applies only to you, and isnt relevant to any other player who's on PC using add-ons as allowed by ZOS.


2a. "Git Gud" PC vs Console
First off, there's no point in comparing PC and Console. Not for you, and not for anyone who wants to say "git gud" or "you're playing wrong." That's because PC has huge advantages in PTS Access, ESO Logs, and add-ons. PC players are so far ahead of Consoles thanks to the PTS and ESO Logs alone that its not even funny - and that's thanks to ZOS and the Console providers.

(To briefly dip back into the testing analogy, imagine that the PC students get to see the final exam in a pretest (PTS Access), get to review the test to check their errors (ESO Logs), and get to use their notes/Book on the test itself (add-ons.) Console players dont get anything. There's no comparing those test scores!)

There's a reason why PC and Console Players don't compete. It's stupid to even try to compare PC and Console because they arent at all on a level playing field and never will be. Any PC Player claiming that a Console player should "git gud" is foolishly denying the threefold advantages that PC Players have: PTS Access, ESO Logs, and Add-ons.


2b. "Git Gud" and "you're playing wrong" in general.
Davor, I know this annoys you from previous conversations.

If I recall previous conversations correctly, you also don't do much in the way of PVE group content or PVP. I remember a fairly recent conversation in which I had to explain to you what a "fake tank" was and why it might be annoying to group members to have a "tank" who was refusing to hold aggro on the bosses.

I'll be honest. Overland and non-grouped content is easy and there's no point to telling someone they are doing it "wrong". Crafting? LOL.

However, if you don't play PVE group content or PVP, you aren't likely going to see when it's appropriate to tell someone "you are doing this wrong." Obviously, it ought to be done politely, but there are times its 100% appropriate.

Example: When I tell you to follow mechanics in a PVE dungeon/trial or we are going to wipe again, that's not a suggestion. If you don't follow the mechanics and you die, you were playing the game wrong. And it will be obvious to everyone watching.

Example: When someone is struggling with dying quickly in PVP because they are wearing their PVE gear, they are playing the game wrong. They need to adjust how they play and what gear they wear to be apropriate for a PVP zone, i.e. more health, more resistances, and impenetrable trait gear. (There's lots of examples in PVP.)

Do note that neither of those has anything to do with add-ons. That's right. Its entirely possible to play Vanilla ESO wrong.

So my advice to you when you see someone telling someone else "You are playing ESO wrong" is to consider "Is this an appropriate time to tell someone they are playing the game wrong?" And if it's a part of the game you don't play often, like PVP or group PVE, consider that you may not have the experience to know that for yourself and you probably shouldnt immediately jump to the conclusion that its inappropriate. Just because it annoys you to hear someone told "you're playing the game wrong" doesnt mean that they aren't, in fact, playing the game wrong.


Hope,that helps clarify some things.

Great post there my friend.

Just curious, not saying to continue the debate, but as something I don't understand since II am not an achievement person. How does that actually work? I am use to Oblivion, Skyrim etc that they are account bound. Not sure with ESO. In ESO is it player bound instead of account bound? Only reason I ask is, if someone gloats they have the achievement for finding all books and or skyshards, would that be cheating if they are using the ad-on? That idea just hit me. Again, I am not sure how achievements work on PC or ESO on PC and console.

I agree with everything you say here.

starkerealm

InvitationNotFound wrote: »

Dracofyre wrote: »

...

only thing that cheating, harvestbots, PvP hostile tracking to find 'isolated" players in cyrodiil if they are doing personal quests or fishing for achievements, and "nirnhoned alert" where it may spawn and make beelined to that node.

...

what the hell?
Harvestbot?
PvP Hostile Tracking?
Nirnhoned Alert?

Never heard of any of them. Are you sure you're talking about addons and not some third party crap (which is an issue anyway)?

I'm absolutely certain that last one isn't a thing. The game rolls the dice on a node when you interact with it. So, you're wandering upper crag, and see a woodworking node that's either marked for your level or your crafting level. You wander over, interact with it, and that is when the game determines: What kind of wood is in the node, how much wood (3-4 pcs or 6-8pcs), and if there's nirncrux in it.

Every random gen call in the game occurs as part of the looting action. While it would be hypothetically possible that the nodes in Craglorn work differently from everywhere else in the game, it's not.

This is someone who was told, "look at all these ways people cheat with addons," and, "addons do all these things." None of those exist.

The only thing that's real are the mat farmer bots, but that's not an addon, that's a bot script.

Davor

InvitationNotFound wrote: »

Davor wrote: »

{Wall of text}...
TL;DR

So is ad-ons cheating? If not give reasons why. Please respect everyone's opinion even if you disagree.

You seem to not really understand the differences between mods, addons and third party application.

Both mods and third party applications are not allowed in ESO. So I'll stick to addons for the further discussion.

To develop an addon, ZOS respectively the developer has to expose an API (Application Programming Interface) for the addon developers. Otherwise, this is not possible.

So in Fallout, the game developer said no, we do not provide an API. Here in ESO, ZOS said "hell yeah, we want to provide such an interface so people can write addons".

ZOS defines the API and what kind of information is available to the addon developer. So ZOS wants and encourages this.
You will find the conditions at different places: ToS, Add-On Terms and likely at other places as well.

So declaring this cheating is absolutely nonsense. ZOS actively allows this and wants players to develop and use addons.
Excerpt from the Add-On Terms:

As part of the ongoing Services provided to You, ZOS will make available an application programming interface (the "API") to allow You to create, download, enable, use, or associate Content, including user-generated Content ("UGC"), that modifies or otherwise provides enhanced features to the user interface ("Add-ons") for The Elder Scrolls® Online software-as-a-service product purchased by You (the "Game").

So no, addons are by far not cheating.

Thank you for that. I learned something new today. Still not sure what an API works, but now I understand more and why now.

Davor

SkerKro wrote: »

Yay. My essential tremors, being deaf and rheumatoid arthritis makes me a cheater according to the op cause I use a QoL add-on for subtitles....

Really? I am trying to shame you? Is that what you are saying? At least explain why that is. I am not doing that at all in my opinion. That is not my intent at all to shame anyone. So please show me how I have done so, so I can apologize.

Davor

idk wrote: »

tallenn wrote: »

I see three separate questions:

Do Addons give an advantage? Yes, absolutely.

Is it an unfair advantage? No. Given that everyone has the same opportunity to use the exact same Addons (on PC, but on console, NO ONE has the advantage), it's not unfair. Anyone (or no one) can gain the same advantage; thus, not unfair.

Is it cheating? Absolutely not. Cheating implies that the advantage is against the rules, as established by the authority; in this case, ZOS.

This says it well. However, OP attempted to frame the discussion around the idea of cheating as the title sets the tone.

Well I made this post because that was what some people were claiming on other forums. I just thought it would be a good discussion here to have. While I may have set the tone, I explained why. What did I do that is so wrong? After all, I never said it was true, I even said I don't think it is, and I even explained why I felt it was. I even said I am not trying to prove anyone wrong.

Some people (not saying you but others) are for some reason trying to tell me I am wrong without facts. That just feels like people are saying I am wrong, but it's not fair when people don't give facts or address what I have said. At least other people explain why and address what I have said. I Love a good debate. That is all this is. Nothing to prove but nice to talk about something different from all other repetitive stuff on the forums.

Nice change of topic, no?

starkerealm

Davor wrote: »

What did I do that is so wrong?

Well, there was that noodle incident...

InvitationNotFound

Davor wrote: »

InvitationNotFound wrote: »

Davor wrote: »

{Wall of text}...
TL;DR

So is ad-ons cheating? If not give reasons why. Please respect everyone's opinion even if you disagree.

You seem to not really understand the differences between mods, addons and third party application.

Both mods and third party applications are not allowed in ESO. So I'll stick to addons for the further discussion.

To develop an addon, ZOS respectively the developer has to expose an API (Application Programming Interface) for the addon developers. Otherwise, this is not possible.

So in Fallout, the game developer said no, we do not provide an API. Here in ESO, ZOS said "hell yeah, we want to provide such an interface so people can write addons".

ZOS defines the API and what kind of information is available to the addon developer. So ZOS wants and encourages this.
You will find the conditions at different places: ToS, Add-On Terms and likely at other places as well.

So declaring this cheating is absolutely nonsense. ZOS actively allows this and wants players to develop and use addons.
Excerpt from the Add-On Terms:

As part of the ongoing Services provided to You, ZOS will make available an application programming interface (the "API") to allow You to create, download, enable, use, or associate Content, including user-generated Content ("UGC"), that modifies or otherwise provides enhanced features to the user interface ("Add-ons") for The Elder Scrolls® Online software-as-a-service product purchased by You (the "Game").

So no, addons are by far not cheating.

Thank you for that. I learned something new today. Still not sure what an API works, but now I understand more and why now.

https://wiki.esoui.com/API

Here you have all functions that ESO is exposing.

You can read it as:
FunctionNameThatUsuallyDoesWhatThisNameSays(ParameterOne, ParameterTwo,...)
-Returns .... <- you will receive this value when calling that function

Furthermore, there are private functions which can't be used, protected function which can only be used out of combat and functions that are always accessible to addon authors.

Addons are written in lua -> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lua_(programming_language)

Furthermore, you can directly execute lua code in the chat window by typing /script <code>
e.g. /script d("hello world")
-> this will print "hello world" in your chat window.

MJallday

The answer to the op is yes - signed every single console player

starkerealm

*redundant comment saying what @InvitationNotFound already mentioned*

Raideen

Davor wrote: »

What did I do that is so wrong?

As with any of us who get a barrage of beatings from shillco, you spoke truth to power.

InvitationNotFound

starkerealm wrote: »

InvitationNotFound wrote: »

Davor wrote: »

InvitationNotFound wrote: »

Davor wrote: »

{Wall of text}...
TL;DR

So is ad-ons cheating? If not give reasons why. Please respect everyone's opinion even if you disagree.

You seem to not really understand the differences between mods, addons and third party application.

Both mods and third party applications are not allowed in ESO. So I'll stick to addons for the further discussion.

To develop an addon, ZOS respectively the developer has to expose an API (Application Programming Interface) for the addon developers. Otherwise, this is not possible.

So in Fallout, the game developer said no, we do not provide an API. Here in ESO, ZOS said "hell yeah, we want to provide such an interface so people can write addons".

ZOS defines the API and what kind of information is available to the addon developer. So ZOS wants and encourages this.
You will find the conditions at different places: ToS, Add-On Terms and likely at other places as well.

So declaring this cheating is absolutely nonsense. ZOS actively allows this and wants players to develop and use addons.
Excerpt from the Add-On Terms:

As part of the ongoing Services provided to You, ZOS will make available an application programming interface (the "API") to allow You to create, download, enable, use, or associate Content, including user-generated Content ("UGC"), that modifies or otherwise provides enhanced features to the user interface ("Add-ons") for The Elder Scrolls® Online software-as-a-service product purchased by You (the "Game").

So no, addons are by far not cheating.

Thank you for that. I learned something new today. Still not sure what an API works, but now I understand more and why now.

https://wiki.esoui.com/API

Here you have all functions that ESO is exposing.

You can read it as:
FunctionNameThatUsuallyDoesWhatThisNameSays(ParameterOne, ParameterTwo,...)
-Returns .... <- you will receive this value when calling that function

Furthermore, there are private functions which can't be used, protected function which can only be used out of combat and functions that are always accessible to addon authors.

Addons are written in lua -> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lua_(programming_language)

Furthermore, you can directly execute lua code in the chat window by typing /script <code>
e.g. /script d("hello world")
-> this will print "hello world" in your chat window.

Before someone gets too excited by the Private Function calls, you cannot execute those via an addon.

That's why i wrote:

Furthermore, there are private functions which can't be used, ...

starkerealm

InvitationNotFound wrote: »

That's why i wrote:

Furthermore, there are private functions which can't be used, ...

I read the post, and completely missed that Private and Protected Function calls were discussed, somehow.

msalvia

No

VaranisArano

Davor wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Davor wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Davor wrote: »

Jhalin wrote: »

Imagine walking into an open note test and saying everyone’s notes were cheating because you failed to bring your notes.

That’s the OP

How is that? Just because you say so doesn't make it so. Again, give examples as I said before to show how someone is wrong. In this case how am I wrong? Just trying to shame? I don't understand what you ment. Love an explanation.

Its an analogy. PC and Console are two different classrooms. PC gets an open note test. Console gets a closed note test (thanks to their Console providers not providing PTS, ESO Logs, or add-ons). Everyone knew that ahead of time when they bought ESO for their platform.

On the PC Open note test, everyone is allowed to have their notes out to get answers. There are no extra prizes for not bringing your notes except for maybe feeling smug that "I didnt need my notes, even though they were totally allowed." If you call students using their notes "cheaters", they are going to laugh, because its an open note test. Notes are 100% allowed, and your grade isn't somehow more valid because you didnt use your notes. In fact, if you missed answers because you didnt use your notes, its a valid question to ask "You know its an open note test, right?"

Tank you for this. You mean open book test. I never herd of open note test. OK this makes sense now. Never herd that expression before. For us in Ontario at least back in the day it was "open book test". We hardly ever had them. Notes were on paper and were never allowed to be brought. This is why it seemed so weird for me.

Well here is one. Not sure how it is else where in the world, but here in Canada, or at least in Ontario, if we win a prize we need to answer a skill testing question with no help with any device, digital or what ever or have someone help us and need to do it on our own in a specific amount of time.

Other parts of the world they can use a calculator if they need to answer a question to get a prize. Is it a cheat? No, because it is allowed, BUT for me it would be an "unfair" advantage though because I don't get to use the calculator.

I curious, what would be the proper term, or wording we should use? Playing the same game with different rules. Unfair? Unfair advantage?

There's just no point in comparing the two tests.

The way I see it, and I am not saying you are wrong just to show my opinion and at least understand why I am thinking this. Reason I see there is comparing is because I believe when some people say "git gud" or others I have seen said "use this app it will help you in combat" and most times people will say "I am on console" or others just don't want to use apps and play the game on how Zenimax Online wants us to.


So how is it fair for someone using ad-ons and then tell someone get better only because they use it? For people who don't do this, which is most I believe, it's a non issue but I do laugh at a person who thinks they are good just because they use an ad-ons that helps them and without it, they can't play as good.

I play better on PC because I have ad-ons I use, but on console game is a bit harder because of no ad-ons. That is why I feel like I am cheating on PC. Even if it's legal, it does for me feel like cheating. When I get all the achievements for finding the skyshards, it feels good, but knowing I need to look at Google or someone using an ad-on, it doesn't feel good for me because they needed help to find it.

Nothing wrong to cheat in single player games because it ads fun to the game. Thing is once SOMEONE does try and tell someone else to get better is using an ad-on that is different. That is getting help not on your own.


Just to make clear which it seems I didn't do, I am not calling anyone a cheater, saying it is cheating and we shouldn't do it. For me, at that moment of time, I felt I was, and then got thinking were the people on the other forum correct after all, when I was in the shoes of the camp saying "it's not cheating". Were they correct after all?

Doesn't matter, I just thought we all could have a good conversation and talk about something different for once. Surprised we didn't have anyone say "nerf sorcerers" or "stop nerfing things". Nice to discuss something else for once.

I'm going to drop the Open Note/Open Book test analogy, since I suspect its not super helpful at this point, amd speak directly to the situation at hand.

I get that your issue is that you went from console to PC and now you feel like its cheating for you to use add-ons.

I also get that you really hate other players telling people to "git gud" in general and it annoys you that PC players say that to console players when PC players can use add-ons.

Those are two separate issues and I'm going to address them as such.


1. PC vs Console "Cheating"
On Console, no one has access to add-ons and so everyone is on a level playing field.
On PC, everyone has access to add-ons and so everyone is on a level playing field.

PC and Console arent even playing on the same field. Ever! PC has huge advantages over console because of PTS Access and ESO Logs, even before we talk about add-ons. (I have an earlier comment explaining those advantages in greater detail.)

So when you swapped from Console to PC, you swapped from an environment where no one has access to add-ons to one where everyone has access to add-ons.

Were you cheating? No. You remained on a level playing field with the people you were playing with. (Unless you self-impose a challenge of not playing with add-ons, but ESO doesnt award prizes for that.)

Did it feel like you were cheating?
Sure. You went from Vanilla ESO to Non-Vanilla ESO and didn't take into account that everyone on PC has the opportunity to play Non-Vanilla ESO. I'm not surprised you felt like you were cheating, even though ZOS allows you to use addons and you remained on a level playing field by using add-ons on PC.

That's your feeling. Its subjective, applies only to you, and isnt relevant to any other player who's on PC using add-ons as allowed by ZOS.


2a. "Git Gud" PC vs Console
First off, there's no point in comparing PC and Console. Not for you, and not for anyone who wants to say "git gud" or "you're playing wrong." That's because PC has huge advantages in PTS Access, ESO Logs, and add-ons. PC players are so far ahead of Consoles thanks to the PTS and ESO Logs alone that its not even funny - and that's thanks to ZOS and the Console providers.

(To briefly dip back into the testing analogy, imagine that the PC students get to see the final exam in a pretest (PTS Access), get to review the test to check their errors (ESO Logs), and get to use their notes/Book on the test itself (add-ons.) Console players dont get anything. There's no comparing those test scores!)

There's a reason why PC and Console Players don't compete. It's stupid to even try to compare PC and Console because they arent at all on a level playing field and never will be. Any PC Player claiming that a Console player should "git gud" is foolishly denying the threefold advantages that PC Players have: PTS Access, ESO Logs, and Add-ons.


2b. "Git Gud" and "you're playing wrong" in general.
Davor, I know this annoys you from previous conversations.

If I recall previous conversations correctly, you also don't do much in the way of PVE group content or PVP. I remember a fairly recent conversation in which I had to explain to you what a "fake tank" was and why it might be annoying to group members to have a "tank" who was refusing to hold aggro on the bosses.

I'll be honest. Overland and non-grouped content is easy and there's no point to telling someone they are doing it "wrong". Crafting? LOL.

However, if you don't play PVE group content or PVP, you aren't likely going to see when it's appropriate to tell someone "you are doing this wrong." Obviously, it ought to be done politely, but there are times its 100% appropriate.

Example: When I tell you to follow mechanics in a PVE dungeon/trial or we are going to wipe again, that's not a suggestion. If you don't follow the mechanics and you die, you were playing the game wrong. And it will be obvious to everyone watching.

Example: When someone is struggling with dying quickly in PVP because they are wearing their PVE gear, they are playing the game wrong. They need to adjust how they play and what gear they wear to be apropriate for a PVP zone, i.e. more health, more resistances, and impenetrable trait gear. (There's lots of examples in PVP.)

Do note that neither of those has anything to do with add-ons. That's right. Its entirely possible to play Vanilla ESO wrong.

So my advice to you when you see someone telling someone else "You are playing ESO wrong" is to consider "Is this an appropriate time to tell someone they are playing the game wrong?" And if it's a part of the game you don't play often, like PVP or group PVE, consider that you may not have the experience to know that for yourself and you probably shouldnt immediately jump to the conclusion that its inappropriate. Just because it annoys you to hear someone told "you're playing the game wrong" doesnt mean that they aren't, in fact, playing the game wrong.


Hope,that helps clarify some things.

Great post there my friend.

Just curious, not saying to continue the debate, but as something I don't understand since II am not an achievement person. How does that actually work? I am use to Oblivion, Skyrim etc that they are account bound. Not sure with ESO. In ESO is it player bound instead of account bound? Only reason I ask is, if someone gloats they have the achievement for finding all books and or skyshards, would that be cheating if they are using the ad-on? That idea just hit me. Again, I am not sure how achievements work on PC or ESO on PC and console.

I agree with everything you say here.

Achievements are per character. And we're going to have to define "cheating" again.

Is it cheating as in "breaking the TOS" to use addons while getting achievements?
Nope! Addons use the API as allowed by ZOS, so its not cheating. Period.

Is it cheating as in giving you any advantage over other players on your platform?
Nope! You are on an equal playing field in terms of addon use and allowed API use as everyone else on your platform.

Is it cheating because it gives PC players an advantage over Console Players?
No, because there's no advantage because its not a competition between platforms.
Again, never compare PC and Console for achievements or "bragging rights" because those two aren't comparable. Just don't, seriously. Console and PC Players don't ever compete, they don't ever play together, and anyone on PC engaging in cross-platform bragging rights is comparing apples to oranges.


But, but...what about using an add-on map to find skyshards?
(Don't feel like you have to answer the following mostly rhetorical questions, BTW. Its mostly there as a thought exercise in using outside sources of help.)

I used an online map to help me tell where different types of fishing holes were when I did my Master Angler achievement (prior to ZOS making labels a base game thing).
Was that cheating?
I still had to fish all the rare fish from all the base game zones, clicking "E" to reel in the fish.

I used an online map to help me locate the Psijic Order rifts for those achievements.
Was that cheating?
I still had to ride around and do the quest. (Frankly, if ZOS had made the map quick-slottable like I asked, I'd have done it without an online map.)

I used an online guide to help me and my IRL friends figure out the mechanics of the Falkreath Hold dungeon the first time we played it for that achievement.
Was that cheating?
We still had to complete the dungeon together and we did, substantially less frustrated than before we looked up the guide.

I used an online guide to help me figure out the best places to hunt various monsters for their trophies for the "Hunter" achievements.
Was that cheating?
I still had to kill all the monsters until their RNG-tastic trophy dropped.


If you want to take the video game super-purist approach, then maybe I was "cheating" by seeking out help from outside sources. I made the game easier than pure vanilla ESO with no outside sources.

Personally, I think that's silly. ESO itself doesn't consider using outside sources to be cheating any more than using addons is against the TOS. Thee's no real difference between using an online map on a 2nd scree and using an addon that gives you an in game map to those skyshards. I still had to ride behind enemy gates to grab those last 4 skyshards.

A purist who never used a map might feel like their Master Angler achievement is somehow more meaningful than mine. A purist who never used a guide might feel like their dungeon achievements are more meaningful than mine. I think that the ESO doesn't care because it's not cheating, and the point values are the same. So the only extra reward for the purist is the feeling of satisfaction, I guess.


I guess what I'm trying to say is that I don't see much to gloat over. Maybe some people get their kicks from "I'm a video game purist, so I got my skyshards the "right" way by solving all the riddles! No online maps or addons for me!" Maybe other people get their kicks from "Look at how fast I get everything done with maps, guides, and add-ons!"

Which is cool and all, but that's a level of bragging and competitiveness that I'm just not interested in. Feels too much like e-peen measuring to me.

For some extra hilarity, I got my achievement for slaying the Emperor of my home campaign on my Healer, with a Light Attack as the final blow. ESO doesn't care that my group did most of the killing. ESO only cares that I got the final hit, and yet I have the same achievement as players who dueled Emperors and won.

Achievements - I really don't see the point in being a "purist" about getting them.