Is using Ad-ons is cheating?

Davor

Let's please keep this civil and have a friendly debate. I just like to have a friendly discussion. Being a friendly debate we need to respect everyone's opinion. Thing is we don't need to agree to other people's opinion but respect it non the less since many millions have dies so we can have rights for different opinions. So we can RESPECTFULLY disagree. Thing is if we "need to prove someone wrong" then address what the person said and not just give examples of what the person didn't say and or deflect what the person is trying to say.

At first, I thought, no, ad-ons are not cheating because it just makes my game enjoyable. So I never though of it again until Fallout 76. For some reason, Bethesda considers ad-ons as cheating and Zenimax Online Doesn't. Wierd, but OK, what ever. I respectfully disagree with Bethesda and many players of Fallout 76 who say ad-ons is cheating.

Having an open mind, even when I disagree with other people's opinion, I still try to understand why they think like that. I play Fallout 76 as if it was a single player game just like I do in ESO. After the year has gone by, I have dabbed in a bit with ESO multiplayer because of events, and just finally did play with another person in Fallout 76. My view has seemed to change a bit.

While my stance on Ad-ons or mods what ever you want to call it, when playing a single player game ad-ons/mods don't matter. Play how you want. So I thought this was weird in Fallout 76, since many people say that ad-ons are "quality of life" issues and or fixes and I agreed. After all, anything to add fun or make something fun and not unfun/frustrating is always good. Thing is people on the Fallout 76 forums still said Quality of Life ad-ons/mods are still cheats but never explain how. So it took me a year to figure it out.

After playing ESO on PC I went back to console to see how it was. My god. It was tough. No mini map. No visuals on the screen or placed where I want them. No this or that. So I went back to PC ESO since it was more enjoyable because of the Quality of Life fixes. Then like I said I finally did some playing with other people. Only then I noticed how some QoL issues changed the screen when people are in PvP lands with groups. Then I go back to console and try it and then that is when it hit me. QoL issues are a cheat in any game where people play with each other especially in PvP.

What are QoL issues say a mini map is a cheat. On consoles where there is no ability to have a mini map, that is an ADVANTAGE since the person who has a mini map doesn't have to stop what they are doing and have a giant map blocking their screen. While not a big deal in my opinion, any advantage is a cheat. Now we have ad-ons/mods that let numbers go off to the side. Is this a cheat? Well it does give an advantage since it's not cluttering the screen and it could help others to have those numbers on the side and read them better.

Same for ad-ons that allow to show members of your group that people who don't use ad-ons or console players don't have access to, get an advantage that can actually be of use.

Since in my opinion, Quality of Life issues make a game easier to play, that is an advantage, no matter how small, is an advantage over someone who doesn't use it. So any advantage no matter how small is a cheat.

Now my question is, why do we keep saying on ESO forums that they are not a cheat but Quality of Life issues? Is it because we don't want to be considered cheaters? We are using 3rd party software that wasn't intended in the game. Doesn't matter if the mini map is in the game, Zenimax Online for what ever reason doesn't have it activated and console users can't activate it, so it's an advantage no matter what. So it's a cheat. I didn't like calling myself a cheater, but now I realize, doesn't matter if I don't call myself a cheater, I am because I am using ad-ons. I have an advantage when I play on PC because I use ad-ons and can't use them on console.

Now for sure we can say ad-ons that show where skyshards, books, what ever is cheating. It makes your character more powerful faster than someone who doesn't know where to find them without looking at the spot on the map. That is a blatant cheat. It's cheating when PC and or console users look on the internet for the answer as well.

I hope I have explained myself. I very well can be wrong and I can admit when I am wrong. Let's have a fun friendly discussion. Is there really an right or wrong answer? After all we all have differing opinions so opinions in most cases can't be wrong. After all is someone wrong for wanting to eat sardines out of a can while walking down the street? Is someone wrong for wanting anchovies on their pizza? Well 1+1=2 so if someone says otherwise would be wrong UNLESS they show how it's not.

TL;DR

So is ad-ons cheating? If not give reasons why. Please respect everyone's opinion even if you disagree.

CMDR_Un1k0rn

idk

Davor wrote: »

So is ad-ons cheating? If not give reasons why.

It is undeniably legitimate as Zos has both requested players to make addons for the game and controls what information is available for use with the addons. Zos has made changes to what information is available when addons were able to provide information that Zos did not want to be available.

Further, PC having addons and consoles not having addons is not relevant as they do not play against or with each other.

Edit: as Wench pointed out in a later post, the issue with 76 is not relevant. It is not this game so what happened there and how they managed that game is immaterial to what goes on in ESO.

IndianaJames7

No, Add ons are intentionally allowed by ZOS and they even have an in game tab to manage them. If ZOS intentionally allows them (as opposed to not wanting something but being unable to stop it from existing/ taking place) they are by definition not cheating.

CMDR_Un1k0rn

IndianaJames7 wrote: »

No, Add ons are intentionally allowed by ZOS and they even have an in game tab to manage them. If ZOS intentionally allows them (as opposed to not wanting something but being unable to stop it from existing/ taking place) they are by definition not cheating.

This LOL. It's literally built into the vanilla UI on PC.

No idea what OP is going on about. I would like what he's drinking though.

starkerealm

Minyassa

No. I mean where would you put the line, if you're going to consider advantage or disadvantage a criterion for cheating? That would make having expensive hardware a cheat if the average player can't afford the best, fastest video card that allows for better graphics and thus a greater ability to see enemies and have object distances load in farther away.

Araneae6537

IMHO, the only add-ons that could be considered cheating are those that give you an advantage over other players for something limited, such as resource nodes. If there are add-ons which give you any advantage in combat, particularly PvP combat, these could be considered cheating. In contrast, with something like Skyshards, you get the same thing whether you hunt by the clues alone, look up the location online or have an add-on direct you to their location. It’s not a race. Even more so, I don’t think it makes sense to compare PC with console players as you’re not competing against one another in any conceivable way.

VaranisArano

No. ZOS allows add-ons, and ZOS literally controls the API access to write add-ons.

wenchmore420b14_ESO

Ok. Yes very long... Lol...

First off, FallOut76 is a bad comparison. It is and has been a hot mess since E3 '18 when Todd said one thing and released another. So we won't mention it. hehe...

As far as add-ons and mods, Bethesda basically started the whole thing in 2002 when they released TES3: Morrowind with the "Construction Disc" and taught people HOW to make mods and encouraged them to do so.

Many really good mods for TES3 became base game in TES4-Oblivion, and mods from that were in Skyrim. Bethesda LOVES add-ons. (Looking at you Creation Club!)...

QoL add-ons are not cheating. The "Cheat Engine" from a couple years ago is a different critter, and yes, was cheating.
Not being able to use add-ons on console is a choice of Sony, Microsoft, and the person using it.

My 2 drakes.... Huzzah!

StormeReigns

Davor wrote: »

Let's please keep this civil and have a friendly debate. I just like to have a friendly discussion. Being a friendly debate we need to respect everyone's opinion. Thing is we don't need to agree to other people's opinion but respect it non the less since many millions have dies so we can have rights for different opinions. So we can RESPECTFULLY disagree. Thing is if we "need to prove someone wrong" then address what the person said and not just give examples of what the person didn't say and or deflect what the person is trying to say.

At first, I thought, no, ad-ons are not cheating because it just makes my game enjoyable. So I never though of it again until Fallout 76. For some reason, Bethesda considers ad-ons as cheating and Zenimax Online Doesn't. Wierd, but OK, what ever. I respectfully disagree with Bethesda and many players of Fallout 76 who say ad-ons is cheating.

Having an open mind, even when I disagree with other people's opinion, I still try to understand why they think like that. I play Fallout 76 as if it was a single player game just like I do in ESO. After the year has gone by, I have dabbed in a bit with ESO multiplayer because of events, and just finally did play with another person in Fallout 76. My view has seemed to change a bit.

While my stance on Ad-ons or mods what ever you want to call it, when playing a single player game ad-ons/mods don't matter. Play how you want. So I thought this was weird in Fallout 76, since many people say that ad-ons are "quality of life" issues and or fixes and I agreed. After all, anything to add fun or make something fun and not unfun/frustrating is always good. Thing is people on the Fallout 76 forums still said Quality of Life ad-ons/mods are still cheats but never explain how. So it took me a year to figure it out.

After playing ESO on PC I went back to console to see how it was. My god. It was tough. No mini map. No visuals on the screen or placed where I want them. No this or that. So I went back to PC ESO since it was more enjoyable because of the Quality of Life fixes. Then like I said I finally did some playing with other people. Only then I noticed how some QoL issues changed the screen when people are in PvP lands with groups. Then I go back to console and try it and then that is when it hit me. QoL issues are a cheat in any game where people play with each other especially in PvP.

What are QoL issues say a mini map is a cheat. On consoles where there is no ability to have a mini map, that is an ADVANTAGE since the person who has a mini map doesn't have to stop what they are doing and have a giant map blocking their screen. While not a big deal in my opinion, any advantage is a cheat. Now we have ad-ons/mods that let numbers go off to the side. Is this a cheat? Well it does give an advantage since it's not cluttering the screen and it could help others to have those numbers on the side and read them better.

Same for ad-ons that allow to show members of your group that people who don't use ad-ons or console players don't have access to, get an advantage that can actually be of use.

Since in my opinion, Quality of Life issues make a game easier to play, that is an advantage, no matter how small, is an advantage over someone who doesn't use it. So any advantage no matter how small is a cheat.

Now my question is, why do we keep saying on ESO forums that they are not a cheat but Quality of Life issues? Is it because we don't want to be considered cheaters? We are using 3rd party software that wasn't intended in the game. Doesn't matter if the mini map is in the game, Zenimax Online for what ever reason doesn't have it activated and console users can't activate it, so it's an advantage no matter what. So it's a cheat. I didn't like calling myself a cheater, but now I realize, doesn't matter if I don't call myself a cheater, I am because I am using ad-ons. I have an advantage when I play on PC because I use ad-ons and can't use them on console.

Now for sure we can say ad-ons that show where skyshards, books, what ever is cheating. It makes your character more powerful faster than someone who doesn't know where to find them without looking at the spot on the map. That is a blatant cheat. It's cheating when PC and or console users look on the internet for the answer as well.

I hope I have explained myself. I very well can be wrong and I can admit when I am wrong. Let's have a fun friendly discussion. Is there really an right or wrong answer? After all we all have differing opinions so opinions in most cases can't be wrong. After all is someone wrong for wanting to eat sardines out of a can while walking down the street? Is someone wrong for wanting anchovies on their pizza? Well 1+1=2 so if someone says otherwise would be wrong UNLESS they show how it's not.

TL;DR

So is ad-ons cheating? If not give reasons why. Please respect everyone's opinion even if you disagree.

I use two Add-ons. One for subtitles (cause, being deaf and the built in one doesn't cover the standard NPCs conversations nor fully gives quest NPC's full text when approaching / leaving) as well Minimap cause... minimap.

There are plenty of add-ons that assist in daily QoL things that the game doesn't offer (well a few got killed off cause "it's cheating excuse" like Color Blind Mode Add-on).

But, I been told I cheat cause of the use of Subtitles, cause it "gives spoilers" so. yeah.

Sandman929

No, but ZOS not bringing some of those add-ons to the base game for consoles is a damned shame.

Dragonnord

Having an advantage is not cheating. In sports, tournaments, etc., happens all the time that players and teams use different and better equipment, even more experienced players and coches, better technology for training, etc., than other teams and so they have an advantage in the games and matches. Is that cheating? Nope.

VaranisArano

To elaborate:

ZOS has specifically changed the API to prevent things they later decided they didnt want to allow.
Examples:
1. Group DPS meter- ZOS removed the API to tell specific group member's DPS. It wasnt cheating, but ZOS decided they didnt want it available. Later, they reintroduced an after-the-fact version in ESO Logs.
2. Miat's Alerts - ZOS removed the API to warn players about attacks from stealth. Again, it wasnt treated as cheating, but that function was eventually removed. ZOS doesnt mind all combat alerts - the PVE versions are still functional.
3. Chat Addons with characters - recently, the Chat API was changed because some players were exploiting the ability of addons to send messages with large amounts of characters in order to cause players to crash. Using the add-ons themselves wasn't cheating, but players who abused them to cause others to crash got temp bans. Pretty clear distinction.


Ultimately, there's a clear distinction.

Are add-ons "cheating" in terms of not playing ESO in its purest vanilla form?

Eh, I can see it both ways. Its not vanilla ESO, but ZOS intended for add-ons to be a part of the PC experience, and controls what can be done with add-ons.

Are addons cheating as in "against the TOS" banworthy cheating?
No.

starkerealm

ErinM31 wrote: »

IMHO, the only add-ons that could be considered cheating are those that give you an advantage over other players for something limited, such as resource nodes. If there are add-ons which give you any advantage in combat, particularly PvP combat, these could be considered cheating.

There's nothing that really lets you get an advantage on resource nodes.

The closest would be Harvest Map, which is a resource hog. All that does is put a floating marker over every potential crafting node. (They're not all active at any given time, so it's a lot of false data.)

Combat advantage is a little more complicated.

On the surface, no, there's no legitimate addons that will automate combat, or improve your weave. You can't directly improve your damage via an addon.

There are addons that can improve buff/debuff visibility. In extreme cases this gets dismissed as, "it tells you when to do everything." Thing is, it's only relaying information you have access to, and putting it in your face.

Same is true for things Raid Notifier. Raid Notifier cannot give you any information you couldn't get on your own (Except: for telling you the correct names for certain actions. Know what Storm of the Heavens is? You'll find out if you run vAS with Raid Notifier turned on. You could see the ability before, but now you'll have it on your screen.)

There is one major addon that will significantly improve combat performance, and it's not cheating. Combat Metrics. This will give you an exact breakdown of your combat performance after the fact, and can show you what you're doing well and what you're failing at. Using this can dramatically improve your DPS. However, it's not cheating because it doesn't actually do anything for you. It only lets you see and analyze what you've been doing wrong. It's an amazing addon that improves combat performance, but you'll never use it in combat.

There used to be an addon, Miats, which would give you warnings when other players initiated a sneak attack on you. The addon still works, but that specific functionality is gone. There've been other issues in the past. Back at launch it was possible to see all of another player's equipped skills through the API, which was quickly patched out.

So, the short version is, no, none of that exists, though the reality is a little more sophisticated than that.

rotaugen454

Grammar in thread titles is cheating.


And Grammper is too.

starkerealm

rotaugen454 wrote: »

Grammar in thread titles is cheating.


And Grammper is too.

Ma! Grammpers got into the thread titles again!

D0PAMINE

Not an attack directed at OP, but it baffles me that a lot of console players would jump all over players who use add ons rather than Microsoft and Sony who forbid their use.

Tandor

I've no doubt that add-ons are legitimate these days, but I do think that with some of the so-called QoL add-ons players are cheating themselves, in the sense that they create short-cuts to the game's content on the spurious ground that they're eliminating "grind" - which would be fine but for the fact that they then complain about there being too little content! This is particularly true with DLCs and Chapters. I speak as a PC player since launch who hasn't used a single add-on in that time.

starkerealm

D0PAMINE wrote: »

Not an attack directed at OP, but it baffles me that a lot of console players would jump all over players who use add ons rather than Microsoft and Sony who forbid their use.

People have a distorted perspective of what the addons are. Add in things like CE, and you can understand why people who don't have access to the system can confuse it for mods in something like Skyrim. Not in this thread, obviously, but I've seen people complaining about using addons to make overpowered gear. That's not how the system works, but if you're stuck on PS4 or XB1, you have no way to know that.

Env_t

Davor wrote: »

Bethesda considers ad-ons as cheating

proof? any official Bethesda quote pls
right now i can find only this
and its far away from what you said

danno8

Fallout 76 is your comparison?

Well then this is easy. Fallout 76 does not officially allow any mods:

https://help.bethesda.net/app/answers/detail/a_id/44429/~/can-i-use-mods-or-other-third-party-programs-with-fallout-76?

ESO DOES officially support mods through the LUA code.

Anything not done through LUA could be considered against the ToS and in that case could be considered a cheat, although many people still use things like Reshade or Sweetfx since they are basically harmless.

Dawnblade

A mini map, map markers, and feedback on character performance have far less of an impact on the game (and other players in the game) than stuff sold for real money in the cash shop such as sky shards and skill lines.

Also I don't play on a console (nothing against those that do), so could care less about how much of an advantage anyone feels PC players have over consoles due to add-ons.

PC players already have an inherent advantage (e.g. power, customization, macros, scripts) given the nature of PCs vs consoles - which is the whole reason the platforms are kept separated.

Donny_Vito

There are addons that can improve buff/debuff visibility. In extreme cases this gets dismissed as, "it tells you when to do everything." Thing is, it's only relaying information you have access to, and putting it in your face.

Same is true for things Raid Notifier. Raid Notifier cannot give you any information you couldn't get on your own (Except: for telling you the correct names for certain actions. Know what Storm of the Heavens is? You'll find out if you run vAS with Raid Notifier turned on. You could see the ability before, but now you'll have it on your screen.)

I think the only valid argument I see against this is that you're not using the combat and mechanics for how it was designed. Meaning, the intent is for you to look around the fight and identify mechanics as they come. It sorta defeats that purpose when every mechanic is written on your screen. Do I think it's cheating? No, ZoS allows it. But I do think it makes you an inferior player since you have to rely on additional help to beat a fight.

BigBragg

Not only does ZeniMax Online Studios create the Terms of Service for their game, and adhere to the overall terms set by the parent company ZeniMax Media, that also owns Bethesda and several other studios. ZOS also writes the rules that govern the game via all the coding. This includes the API that provides information for add-ons to function. They intentionally block some things from being shared, like other players DPS, while allowing other information to be used by the modders and community as a whole. Ergo, no add-ons and mods are not cheating in Elder Scrolls Online.

Fallout 76 and the people who run the game have created a different ruleset for the game and community and it is there. You are comparing apples and oranges. It's like saying World of Warcraft has flying, but ESO doesn't, so is flying cheating?

StormeReigns

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Hallothiel

Can’t really comment as on ps4 and therefore have to somehow manage to play & enjoy the game without add-ons. Lord knows how I can. 🤣

But have to admit the one add-on I know about that really does annoy me & could almost verge on cheating is the one that does all your crafting writs for you. Would give you certain advantages.

But it just annoys me as it’s a lazy short cut.

If you want the benefits of doing the writs, you should have to make the choice that you will spend time on them - not just get them done by an add-on.

Just my opinion. 🙂

D0PAMINE

starkerealm wrote: »

D0PAMINE wrote: »

Not an attack directed at OP, but it baffles me that a lot of console players would jump all over players who use add ons rather than Microsoft and Sony who forbid their use.

People have a distorted perspective of what the addons are. Add in things like CE, and you can understand why people who don't have access to the system can confuse it for mods in something like Skyrim. Not in this thread, obviously, but I've seen people complaining about using addons to make overpowered gear. That's not how the system works, but if you're stuck on PS4 or XB1, you have no way to know that.

Yeah, I can see what you mean. Still, it would be nice if at the 5 year mark the we had more access to a massive part of the game QOL available towards console players. Maybe we need to pestor MS and Sony a bit more relentlessly once the combat changes have become more stable. I've never played on console before, but it seems kind of silly they cant even get a lazy writ crafter.

Edit: It might be easier for ZoS to make some things base game, like a dressing room feature.

Araneae6537

starkerealm wrote: »

ErinM31 wrote: »

IMHO, the only add-ons that could be considered cheating are those that give you an advantage over other players for something limited, such as resource nodes. If there are add-ons which give you any advantage in combat, particularly PvP combat, these could be considered cheating.

There's nothing that really lets you get an advantage on resource nodes.

The closest would be Harvest Map, which is a resource hog. All that does is put a floating marker over every potential crafting node. (They're not all active at any given time, so it's a lot of false data.)

Combat advantage is a little more complicated.

On the surface, no, there's no legitimate addons that will automate combat, or improve your weave. You can't directly improve your damage via an addon.

There are addons that can improve buff/debuff visibility. In extreme cases this gets dismissed as, "it tells you when to do everything." Thing is, it's only relaying information you have access to, and putting it in your face.

Same is true for things Raid Notifier. Raid Notifier cannot give you any information you couldn't get on your own (Except: for telling you the correct names for certain actions. Know what Storm of the Heavens is? You'll find out if you run vAS with Raid Notifier turned on. You could see the ability before, but now you'll have it on your screen.)

There is one major addon that will significantly improve combat performance, and it's not cheating. Combat Metrics. This will give you an exact breakdown of your combat performance after the fact, and can show you what you're doing well and what you're failing at. Using this can dramatically improve your DPS. However, it's not cheating because it doesn't actually do anything for you. It only lets you see and analyze what you've been doing wrong. It's an amazing addon that improves combat performance, but you'll never use it in combat.

There used to be an addon, Miats, which would give you warnings when other players initiated a sneak attack on you. The addon still works, but that specific functionality is gone. There've been other issues in the past. Back at launch it was possible to see all of another player's equipped skills through the API, which was quickly patched out.

So, the short version is, no, none of that exists, though the reality is a little more sophisticated than that.

Thank you for the information! I did not mean to seem to be complaining about any add-ons (although I did have the wrong idea about the resource node add-on), but rather, in the spirit of discussion, trying assess what could potentially be considered cheating. And I will have to check out this Combat Metrics to work on improving my own performance.

tallenn

Your premise is faulty.

Bethesda has never said anything about Addons being considered "cheating" in Fallout 76 -at least not as of a month or so ago, I haven't really been following the forums since then. What they have said is that Addons are "not supported", thus indemnifying themselves from any problems or issues that might arise as a result of using Addons in Fallout 76.

They have specifically called out certain other things -the program "Cheat Engine" has been mentioned specifically- as being cheating, and have banned players for using it. Not so with Addons.

In fact, they've even said that Addons eventually WILL be supported for Fallout 76. It's just that right now, the rule is, "use at your own risk". I used several Addons while playing that game, wrote about it on the official forums, and have never heard anything from Bethesda about it.

Finally, Bethesda doesn't really have that much to do with Zenimax Online Studios, other than both being owned by Zenimax Media. If they did, surely they would have tapped some of the talent responsible for ESO when building 76, and they obviously did not do that.

Jhalin

Imagine walking into an open note test and saying everyone’s notes were cheating because you failed to bring your notes.

That’s the OP