Is using Ad-ons is cheating?

idk

D0PAMINE wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

D0PAMINE wrote: »

Not an attack directed at OP, but it baffles me that a lot of console players would jump all over players who use add ons rather than Microsoft and Sony who forbid their use.

People have a distorted perspective of what the addons are. Add in things like CE, and you can understand why people who don't have access to the system can confuse it for mods in something like Skyrim. Not in this thread, obviously, but I've seen people complaining about using addons to make overpowered gear. That's not how the system works, but if you're stuck on PS4 or XB1, you have no way to know that.

Yeah, I can see what you mean. Still, it would be nice if at the 5 year mark the we had more access to a massive part of the game QOL available towards console players. Maybe we need to pestor MS and Sony a bit more relentlessly once the combat changes have become more stable. I've never played on console before, but it seems kind of silly they cant even get a lazy writ crafter.

Edit: It might be easier for ZoS to make some things base game, like a dressing room feature.

Zos had developed a UI more customary of a MMORPG and it was used in early player testing. In the end Zos said they abandoned it because they wanted us to get our information from the environment even though the game has never worked well enough for that to actually happen. The change was more likely due to TES single player fans wanting the UI to look more like the earlier games. Not tossing anyone under the buss.

SirAndy

Davor wrote: »

...

No

D0PAMINE

idk wrote: »

D0PAMINE wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

D0PAMINE wrote: »

Not an attack directed at OP, but it baffles me that a lot of console players would jump all over players who use add ons rather than Microsoft and Sony who forbid their use.

People have a distorted perspective of what the addons are. Add in things like CE, and you can understand why people who don't have access to the system can confuse it for mods in something like Skyrim. Not in this thread, obviously, but I've seen people complaining about using addons to make overpowered gear. That's not how the system works, but if you're stuck on PS4 or XB1, you have no way to know that.

Yeah, I can see what you mean. Still, it would be nice if at the 5 year mark the we had more access to a massive part of the game QOL available towards console players. Maybe we need to pestor MS and Sony a bit more relentlessly once the combat changes have become more stable. I've never played on console before, but it seems kind of silly they cant even get a lazy writ crafter.

Edit: It might be easier for ZoS to make some things base game, like a dressing room feature.

Zos had developed a UI more customary of a MMORPG and it was used in early player testing. In the end Zos said they abandoned it because they wanted us to get our information from the environment even though the game has never worked well enough for that to actually happen. The change was more likely due to TES single player fans wanting the UI to look more like the earlier games. Not tossing anyone under the buss.

Interesting. Thank You.

Raideen

I don't think addons are cheating perse, but they do give an advantage over those who do not or CAN NOT use them (low PC specs).

IMO, the addons that become mandatory to use should be baked into the factory UI to balance the playing field.

zaria

Jhalin wrote: »

Imagine walking into an open note test and saying everyone’s notes were cheating because you failed to bring your notes.

That’s the OP

Pretty much sums it up. ZoS makes the rules.
One rule is that factions can not cooperate to flip to farm AP.
They can rule tomorrow that Khajiit characters must use Khajiit speak in chat for improved immersion.

Its just like all the rules in any sport, why can you not pick up the ball in soccer unless you are the goalkeeper.
Why can not an pawn in chess attack the enemy ahead if it?

As for consoles. Its a lots of loops to jump trough and ZoS don't see much reason to do it.
(Now say PS5 is far more open, yes that would be pretty ***, not only do you get much better performance but you can can also use mods. No it dont affect combat as much, but combat metrics is very nice then training an rotation.
QoL is another story.
Swap gear and bar between fights, from magic DD with off heal to trial healing.
You obviously has an overland mode and some pvp modes, I just has two here.

zaria

tallenn wrote: »

Your premise is faulty.

Bethesda has never said anything about Addons being considered "cheating" in Fallout 76 -at least not as of a month or so ago, I haven't really been following the forums since then. What they have said is that Addons are "not supported", thus indemnifying themselves from any problems or issues that might arise as a result of using Addons in Fallout 76.

They have specifically called out certain other things -the program "Cheat Engine" has been mentioned specifically- as being cheating, and have banned players for using it. Not so with Addons.

In fact, they've even said that Addons eventually WILL be supported for Fallout 76. It's just that right now, the rule is, "use at your own risk". I used several Addons while playing that game, wrote about it on the official forums, and have never heard anything from Bethesda about it.

Finally, Bethesda doesn't really have that much to do with Zenimax Online Studios, other than both being owned by Zenimax Media. If they did, surely they would have tapped some of the talent responsible for ESO when building 76, and they obviously did not do that.

This, now add that Fallout 76 is based on the Bethesda engine who has strong mod support but Bethesda evolved into an single player rpg engine. (old dark age of Camelot used the netimerse engine who was the origin of the Bethesda creation engine)
However the modality of the creation engine is nothing you want in an multiplayer game. Its pretty trivial to have an mini gun shoot mini nukes, its also kind of game breaking if you also adjusted the speed of the mini nukes to be more like sniper rifle rounds. Note that this will impact PvP a bit, you could also increase the effect of the mini nukes a bit making them more like an realistic one ton standard bomb

ESO was designed to use LUA mods only the same way as WOW does.
its not much you can do to exploit, it was one who gave warning on incoming snipe or other casting time first strikes.
This was blocked.

idk

Raideen wrote: »

I don't think addons are cheating perse, but they do give an advantage over those who do not or CAN NOT use them (low PC specs).

IMO, the addons that become mandatory to use should be baked into the factory UI to balance the playing field.

Those with low PC specs are at a disadvantage in most MMORPGs as it is. Slower response is deadly. When the indication of the area effect is not showing up until a couple seconds later that is a disadvantage.

stewhead2ub17_ESO

No...but they are for the weak!

D0PAMINE

idk wrote: »

Raideen wrote: »

I don't think addons are cheating perse, but they do give an advantage over those who do not or CAN NOT use them (low PC specs).

IMO, the addons that become mandatory to use should be baked into the factory UI to balance the playing field.

Those with low PC specs are at a disadvantage in most MMORPGs as it is. Slower response is deadly. When the indication of the area effect is not showing up until a couple seconds later that is a disadvantage.

Yeah, PC slow rendering on a server that lags already, no add on will correct that.

Dusk_Coven

Technically no but sometimes it's so useful it feels like cheating.
From Console looking at PC, Lazy Writ Crafter definitely looks like cheating when you can get 18 alts done in the time it takes them to do 3. The only reason their can't complain is because the economy is separated by platform so all the farming on PC can't affect them.

Some AddOns bypass functions in the game, such as Port to Friend's House. It lets you choose a residence they own other than the residence they set as their Primary. So they don't have to be at their non-Primary residence for you to enter (via porting to them while they are there).
This is technically tricky. If the owner has permissions changed on their non-primary residence and don't intend for someone to go, people who bookmarked it in the past can still go. Not sure if they can mess around in the house if they have a grudge too.

stewhead2ub17_ESO wrote: »

No...but they are for the weak!

All those raid help "INSTAKILL IS COMING!" addons, yeah. But in the long run they just handicap you because you didn't learn and will keep looking to AddOns for a crutch. Like learning to type but constantly looking at the keyboard to find the keys.

kinguardian

The addons that i have seen so far I do not consider cheating. The sky shard one I find really amazing and I can not understand why the game has not made this an option on console. Because before I knew of the add on it was pissing me of to try and find them.

Davor

So much to read and reply to. Great points made. Just wanted to say something here.

wenchmore420b14_ESO wrote: »

First off, FallOut76 is a bad comparison.

Sorry I see I haven't explained myself. In no way am I comparing this to Fallout 76. I only mentioned Fallout 76 is because that is where the idea popped in my head, and where it started me thinking if it is true and if true how it would apply to ESO. Hence I made the thread here.

I have read a few good points made, people have said Zenimax Online endorses it. Right there, that I totally forgot is that no, it's not a cheat.

Can it be said it's legal cheating though? Yes we can look up on Google and various web sites to find an answer or location. I do that many times. That is cheating though. It doesn't hurt anyone EXCEPT when someone claims they are better than someone else.

It's one to have played the game and know where the locations are. Thing is, when some of these "smart people" who claim that this is the way to play ESO, why is it they have skyshards locations, book locations etc? After all if you are so "smart" why need cheats to find them?

"It's a time saver some will say." Time saver or not, that is cheating because you are not finding it the natural way of playing the game of finding it yourself. Again, different if you can remember, but since people use them means they can't remember where they are and need them to get their skill points.

So now we have some people (not saying all, but some) who claim to be "better" than others, or say "this is the way to play". So if they are so knowladgeable, then why use them in the first place? How can we trust someone who "just says so without explanation" when you see they need help playing the game.

Or someone else say "I am better than you so you should be doing this" to someone else but they use these Quality of Life features or plain cheating? Why is it cheating? For most it saves time. Time not to stop and look at map, time not to search for skyshard or books to get skill points and achievements. Yes it's one thing to go online and check for yourself, but it's another to have it in the game. So it is a cheat because now you don't have to take time to do it. While it does seem trivial, I just get a kick for someone to make a new alt and then say they are better than someone else because it takes them less time to do so than others who are not "as good" but don't use them. Does this make sense?

While it is still allowed by Zenimax Online, it's still an advantage that the developers didn't want people to have. So we are playing a way that Zenimax didn't originally want, or it would have been in the game. I look it as jay walking. In lots of places, it's against the law, but most people who do it, never get charged for doing so. Not really a big deal but just one of those just because it's allowed don't mean it is still not wrong. Does that make sense? Yes I know once Zenimax Online says something is legal then it is.

How can a cyber jock claim he is so good or much better than someone else or claim a game should be played this way when they take short cuts and someone who doesn't take short cuts but then is just as good as other person but just took a few days, weeks, months more to achieve. They are better because they "saved" time and didn't want to take the time and there fore doing something on equal footing wasn't done, so it is a cheat. Legal or not.

Back to reading the other posts.

Davor

SkerKro wrote: »

So is ad-ons cheating? If not give reasons why. Please respect everyone's opinion even if you disagree.

I use two Add-ons. One for subtitles (cause, being deaf and the built in one doesn't cover the standard NPCs conversations nor fully gives quest NPC's full text when approaching / leaving) as well Minimap cause... minimap.

There are plenty of add-ons that assist in daily QoL things that the game doesn't offer (well a few got killed off cause "it's cheating excuse" like Color Blind Mode Add-on).

But, I been told I cheat cause of the use of Subtitles, cause it "gives spoilers" so. yeah.[/quote]

I am not saying using ad-ons or mods is a bad thing at all. Nobody needs to defend themselves for using something they want to. I am not calling you out as a cheater, if you think I was, I am sorry, and I apologize if you felt I was. Not my intention at all. Just a thought in my head when I started playing on console again. When I went back to PC it did feel like I was cheating though.

I need sub titles on, because I am hard of hearing.. I also use the mini map. Only reason I say a mini map is a cheat because it saves time. I know this sounds so stupid but that is an advantage over someone else who doesn't use it. When playing on PC after playing on console it just felt for me I was cheating somehow. That is why I made the post. Hope you understand.

Davor

Donny_Vito wrote: »

I think the only valid argument I see against this is that you're not using the combat and mechanics for how it was designed. Meaning, the intent is for you to look around the fight and identify mechanics as they come. It sorta defeats that purpose when every mechanic is written on your screen. Do I think it's cheating? No, ZoS allows it. But I do think it makes you an inferior player since you have to rely on additional help to beat a fight.

THANK YOU SO MUCH. That is what I ment.

Davor

Jhalin wrote: »

Imagine walking into an open note test and saying everyone’s notes were cheating because you failed to bring your notes.

That’s the OP

How is that? Just because you say so doesn't make it so. Again, give examples as I said before to show how someone is wrong. In this case how am I wrong? Just trying to shame? I don't understand what you ment. Love an explanation.

Zacuel

Yes.

Davor

zaria wrote: »

Its just like all the rules in any sport, why can you not pick up the ball in soccer unless you are the goalkeeper.
Why can not an pawn in chess attack the enemy ahead if it?

Good point. BUT you are also not allowed to enhance yourself in sports as well. So adding ad-ons for you to play in ESO is to get an advantage over someone else. Otherwise, why use some of the combat ad-ons? How is that a QoL feature? Without it, that means for that person, they are not good without it, or means they need to come a bit better because with it makes it easier for that person to play.

Dusk_Coven

kinguardian wrote: »

The addons that i have seen so far I do not consider cheating. The sky shard one I find really amazing and I can not understand why the game has not made this an option on console. Because before I knew of the add on it was pissing me of to try and find them.

I think the original design of the skyshards is actually a sort of riddle/puzzle. That's why you get riddle lines in the skyshard journal.
But when you've done it once, you really don't want to do it again. Same with treasure maps and survey maps. Find it once and just remember it. The AddOn is like a notepad in that case.

Davor

.

kinguardian wrote: »

The addons that i have seen so far I do not consider cheating. The sky shard one I find really amazing and I can not understand why the game has not made this an option on console. Because before I knew of the add on it was pissing me of to try and find them.

Not saying it's wrong to use, but in the end it is cheating. While I don't use the ad-on, I do go on Google. So I am cheating as well when I do that.

Dusk_Coven wrote: »

Technically no but sometimes it's so useful it feels like cheating.
From Console looking at PC, Lazy Writ Crafter definitely looks like cheating when you can get 18 alts done in the time it takes them to do 3. The only reason their can't complain is because the economy is separated by platform so all the farming on PC can't affect them.

Some AddOns bypass functions in the game, such as Port to Friend's House. It lets you choose a residence they own other than the residence they set as their Primary. So they don't have to be at their non-Primary residence for you to enter (via porting to them while they are there).
This is technically tricky. If the owner has permissions changed on their non-primary residence and don't intend for someone to go, people who bookmarked it in the past can still go. Not sure if they can mess around in the house if they have a grudge too.

stewhead2ub17_ESO wrote: »

No...but they are for the weak!

All those raid help "INSTAKILL IS COMING!" addons, yeah. But in the long run they just handicap you because you didn't learn and will keep looking to AddOns for a crutch. Like learning to type but constantly looking at the keyboard to find the keys.

Another one that I couldn't say as well. Thank you.

Dusk_Coven wrote: »

kinguardian wrote: »

The addons that i have seen so far I do not consider cheating. The sky shard one I find really amazing and I can not understand why the game has not made this an option on console. Because before I knew of the add on it was pissing me of to try and find them.

I think the original design of the skyshards is actually a sort of riddle/puzzle. That's why you get riddle lines in the skyshard journal.
But when you've done it once, you really don't want to do it again. Same with treasure maps and survey maps. Find it once and just remember it. The AddOn is like a notepad in that case.

Thing is many of us don't do that, me included. I have gone on Google since I was frustrated since I couldn't find the last two books or skyshards. Does it really hurt anyone? No, but still a cheat since I couldn't find it. Funny enough on my first character I was able to find them but on my second one I couldn't. Still I was cheating though, looking for an answer since I couldn't find it.

idk

Donny_Vito wrote: »

There are addons that can improve buff/debuff visibility. In extreme cases this gets dismissed as, "it tells you when to do everything." Thing is, it's only relaying information you have access to, and putting it in your face.

Same is true for things Raid Notifier. Raid Notifier cannot give you any information you couldn't get on your own (Except: for telling you the correct names for certain actions. Know what Storm of the Heavens is? You'll find out if you run vAS with Raid Notifier turned on. You could see the ability before, but now you'll have it on your screen.)

I think the only valid argument I see against this is that you're not using the combat and mechanics for how it was designed. Meaning, the intent is for you to look around the fight and identify mechanics as they come. It sorta defeats that purpose when every mechanic is written on your screen. Do I think it's cheating? No, ZoS allows it. But I do think it makes you an inferior player since you have to rely on additional help to beat a fight.

yea, yea, Zos said they wanted us to gleam our information from the environment vs a UI when they attempted to explain why they ditched the full MMORPG type of UI they had developed for player testing. However they never have been able to get the game to work in a manner it was effective.

I always laughed at their justification because the indicator of buffs and debuffs have often fallen off early or late making it a failed design. That is when they do not get covered up by other indications of buffs and debuffs as some are easily disguised. Zos essentially acknowledged this failure when they added the buff/debuff tracker to the base UI.

I say that as a player who notices the tells from the boss about what is about to happen before I notice text on my screen. But I will be the first to say that this game is not designed well enough to be able to track buffs and debuffs from the visual indicators in the game. That part has been a failure from the start.

maddiniiLuna

@Davor

This was quite interesting to read, until i noticed something important. If i understood correctly then PC Players with Add-Ons have an advantage over Console Players that don't have access to them, yes? Because that's where it hit me. PC Players and Console players do not play on the same servers, don't have the same trade guilds (for example those in craglorn) and do not have the same players.

So yes i do agree, that a player with add-ons will have an advantage over those that can not use them, but they would never actually meet in-game. On the PC it's different, because every person has the same opportunity to download and install add-ons, meaning everybody has equal chances. If people don't download the add-ons because they don't know or don't want to use them, then they still have the opportunity to find out or download but won't on free choice (so there is still no unfair advantage). One could argue, that he shouldn't be forced to download add-ons to stay competitive, but this is not realistic since you have to make potions, poisons, gear, skills, weapons - to be competitive (i mean seriously if you go with green gear vs. full legendary you gonna loose under equal conditions).

Those that don't have the opportunity to use add-ons will only meet people with the same status and the same for those that do have the opportunity. Is it cheating, when everybody has equally fair chances?

vibeborn

If Zos is okay with it, I'm okay with it

Besides it's not like there's an addon that automatically boosts your level or CP. That I would consider cheating

But things to help you locate quests, skyshards, minimap etc. I have no issues with

Maxx7410

No you blasphemous infidel!!!!

Dusk_Coven

Davor wrote: »

Dusk_Coven wrote: »

kinguardian wrote: »

The addons that i have seen so far I do not consider cheating. The sky shard one I find really amazing and I can not understand why the game has not made this an option on console. Because before I knew of the add on it was pissing me of to try and find them.

I think the original design of the skyshards is actually a sort of riddle/puzzle. That's why you get riddle lines in the skyshard journal.
But when you've done it once, you really don't want to do it again. Same with treasure maps and survey maps. Find it once and just remember it. The AddOn is like a notepad in that case.

Thing is many of us don't do that, me included. I have gone on Google since I was frustrated since I couldn't find the last two books or skyshards. Does it really hurt anyone? No, but still a cheat since I couldn't find it. Funny enough on my first character I was able to find them but on my second one I couldn't. Still I was cheating though, looking for an answer since I couldn't find it.

This is the oldest form of "cheating" -- getting help. But when it's reframed like that, of course no one calls it "cheating". Is using an Addon to locate the skyshards for you any more of a cheat than searching the internet for the answer or asking in guild chat for help?

What feels like "cheating" (and exploits) often falls onto a continuum that is underlied by how easily you got to the solution. The more easily someone feels someone else arrived at the solution, the more likely they are to feel that person cheated.
So any use of the word "cheating" can be quite subjective without a hard rule that directly addresses the action/behavior. And that's the situation with AddOns.

Davor

maddiniiLuna wrote: »

@Davor

This was quite interesting to read, until i noticed something important. If i understood correctly then PC Players with Add-Ons have an advantage over Console Players that don't have access to them, yes? Because that's where it hit me. PC Players and Console players do not play on the same servers, don't have the same trade guilds (for example those in craglorn) and do not have the same players.

So yes i do agree, that a player with add-ons will have an advantage over those that can not use them, but they would never actually meet in-game. On the PC it's different, because every person has the same opportunity to download and install add-ons, meaning everybody has equal chances. If people don't download the add-ons because they don't know or don't want to use them, then they still have the opportunity to find out or download but won't on free choice (so there is still no unfair advantage). One could argue, that he shouldn't be forced to download add-ons to stay competitive, but this is not realistic since you have to make potions, poisons, gear, skills, weapons - to be competitive (i mean seriously if you go with green gear vs. full legendary you gonna loose under equal conditions).

Those that don't have the opportunity to use add-ons will only meet people with the same status and the same for those that do have the opportunity. Is it cheating, when everybody has equally fair chances?

Great points there. If everyone is on equal footing like you said on PC, and Zenimax allows it, then no it's not cheating that everyone has the option to use it.

Thing is, can that person who do use the ad-ons be as good without them? If the answer is no, then that is a cheat because they needed a third party program to help them. Like in sports. Perfect example. Ben Johnson. He got caught using steroids for his 100m win. That is cheating. Thing is when he was stripped others went up one. 8 out of 10 were caught cheating. Even at the time, the new winner Carl Lewis. Thing is reports years later showed he had positive results for that time, no matter how low it was, but at the time, those numbers were a positive result and he should have never been allowed to compete.

So did Carl Lewis or if he didn't but what about the other 8 out of the 10 who ran did not cheat because they didn't get caught at the time.

Ben said he had to cheat to be on the same level as others. So he cheated because others cheated. Does it still make it right?

That is how I see it. In Ben's case yes that is a huge deal. In ESO, not a big deal at all. Does seem like a stupid thing I brought up, but in the end, why does someone need a "crutch" as someone else said so they can play better? I guess that person shouldn't be saying they are better than someone else, or tell people how something should be done or play the game. Most people don't do that, but I just find it funny when some people do that, as we have seen lately with all the "git good" threads.

idk

Davor wrote: »

maddiniiLuna wrote: »

@Davor

This was quite interesting to read, until i noticed something important. If i understood correctly then PC Players with Add-Ons have an advantage over Console Players that don't have access to them, yes? Because that's where it hit me. PC Players and Console players do not play on the same servers, don't have the same trade guilds (for example those in craglorn) and do not have the same players.

So yes i do agree, that a player with add-ons will have an advantage over those that can not use them, but they would never actually meet in-game. On the PC it's different, because every person has the same opportunity to download and install add-ons, meaning everybody has equal chances. If people don't download the add-ons because they don't know or don't want to use them, then they still have the opportunity to find out or download but won't on free choice (so there is still no unfair advantage). One could argue, that he shouldn't be forced to download add-ons to stay competitive, but this is not realistic since you have to make potions, poisons, gear, skills, weapons - to be competitive (i mean seriously if you go with green gear vs. full legendary you gonna loose under equal conditions).

Those that don't have the opportunity to use add-ons will only meet people with the same status and the same for those that do have the opportunity. Is it cheating, when everybody has equally fair chances?

Thing is, can that person who do use the ad-ons be as good without them? If the answer is no, then that is a cheat because they needed a third party program to help them.

First, this is not the question you asked so you are trying to derail your own thread. Second your logic about what is a cheat is also not what you were asking and is not what within the acceptable definition of what is cheating in gaming.

Facts speak for themselves. Addons are not only permitted by Zos but they also encouraged players to design them. Zos also has complete control over what information we have access to and has closed off certain information when they did not like how it was used in addons. As such addons are not cheating by the only definition that matters here. They are legitimate by the only authority that matters.

Araneae6537

Davor wrote: »

So much to read and reply to. Great points made. Just wanted to say something here.

wenchmore420b14_ESO wrote: »

First off, FallOut76 is a bad comparison.

Sorry I see I haven't explained myself. In no way am I comparing this to Fallout 76. I only mentioned Fallout 76 is because that is where the idea popped in my head, and where it started me thinking if it is true and if true how it would apply to ESO. Hence I made the thread here.

I have read a few good points made, people have said Zenimax Online endorses it. Right there, that I totally forgot is that no, it's not a cheat.

Can it be said it's legal cheating though? Yes we can look up on Google and various web sites to find an answer or location. I do that many times. That is cheating though. It doesn't hurt anyone EXCEPT when someone claims they are better than someone else.

It's one to have played the game and know where the locations are. Thing is, when some of these "smart people" who claim that this is the way to play ESO, why is it they have skyshards locations, book locations etc? After all if you are so "smart" why need cheats to find them?

"It's a time saver some will say." Time saver or not, that is cheating because you are not finding it the natural way of playing the game of finding it yourself. Again, different if you can remember, but since people use them means they can't remember where they are and need them to get their skill points.

So now we have some people (not saying all, but some) who claim to be "better" than others, or say "this is the way to play". So if they are so knowladgeable, then why use them in the first place? How can we trust someone who "just says so without explanation" when you see they need help playing the game.

Or someone else say "I am better than you so you should be doing this" to someone else but they use these Quality of Life features or plain cheating? Why is it cheating? For most it saves time. Time not to stop and look at map, time not to search for skyshard or books to get skill points and achievements. Yes it's one thing to go online and check for yourself, but it's another to have it in the game. So it is a cheat because now you don't have to take time to do it. While it does seem trivial, I just get a kick for someone to make a new alt and then say they are better than someone else because it takes them less time to do so than others who are not "as good" but don't use them. Does this make sense?

While it is still allowed by Zenimax Online, it's still an advantage that the developers didn't want people to have. So we are playing a way that Zenimax didn't originally want, or it would have been in the game. I look it as jay walking. In lots of places, it's against the law, but most people who do it, never get charged for doing so. Not really a big deal but just one of those just because it's allowed don't mean it is still not wrong. Does that make sense? Yes I know once Zenimax Online says something is legal then it is.

How can a cyber jock claim he is so good or much better than someone else or claim a game should be played this way when they take short cuts and someone who doesn't take short cuts but then is just as good as other person but just took a few days, weeks, months more to achieve. They are better because they "saved" time and didn't want to take the time and there fore doing something on equal footing wasn't done, so it is a cheat. Legal or not.

Back to reading the other posts.

But who cares about what anyone claims about “being better”? What is this, grade school? To use your example of leveling, all that matters is that it’s fun and, for instance, I enjoy trying to find the Skyshards on my own, just going by hints, so for me that is better than using the add-on. If you have more fun using the Internet or an Add-On or even buying the sets from the Crown Store, then that is better for you.

VaranisArano

Davor wrote: »

So much to read and reply to. Great points made. Just wanted to say something here.

wenchmore420b14_ESO wrote: »

First off, FallOut76 is a bad comparison.

Sorry I see I haven't explained myself. In no way am I comparing this to Fallout 76. I only mentioned Fallout 76 is because that is where the idea popped in my head, and where it started me thinking if it is true and if true how it would apply to ESO. Hence I made the thread here.

I have read a few good points made, people have said Zenimax Online endorses it. Right there, that I totally forgot is that no, it's not a cheat.

Can it be said it's legal cheating though? Yes we can look up on Google and various web sites to find an answer or location. I do that many times. That is cheating though. It doesn't hurt anyone EXCEPT when someone claims they are better than someone else.

It's one to have played the game and know where the locations are. Thing is, when some of these "smart people" who claim that this is the way to play ESO, why is it they have skyshards locations, book locations etc? After all if you are so "smart" why need cheats to find them?

"It's a time saver some will say." Time saver or not, that is cheating because you are not finding it the natural way of playing the game of finding it yourself. Again, different if you can remember, but since people use them means they can't remember where they are and need them to get their skill points.

So now we have some people (not saying all, but some) who claim to be "better" than others, or say "this is the way to play". So if they are so knowladgeable, then why use them in the first place? How can we trust someone who "just says so without explanation" when you see they need help playing the game.

Or someone else say "I am better than you so you should be doing this" to someone else but they use these Quality of Life features or plain cheating? Why is it cheating? For most it saves time. Time not to stop and look at map, time not to search for skyshard or books to get skill points and achievements. Yes it's one thing to go online and check for yourself, but it's another to have it in the game. So it is a cheat because now you don't have to take time to do it. While it does seem trivial, I just get a kick for someone to make a new alt and then say they are better than someone else because it takes them less time to do so than others who are not "as good" but don't use them. Does this make sense?

While it is still allowed by Zenimax Online, it's still an advantage that the developers didn't want people to have. So we are playing a way that Zenimax didn't originally want, or it would have been in the game. I look it as jay walking. In lots of places, it's against the law, but most people who do it, never get charged for doing so. Not really a big deal but just one of those just because it's allowed don't mean it is still not wrong. Does that make sense? Yes I know once Zenimax Online says something is legal then it is.

How can a cyber jock claim he is so good or much better than someone else or claim a game should be played this way when they take short cuts and someone who doesn't take short cuts but then is just as good as other person but just took a few days, weeks, months more to achieve. They are better because they "saved" time and didn't want to take the time and there fore doing something on equal footing wasn't done, so it is a cheat. Legal or not.

Back to reading the other posts.

Who's bragging about their amazing ability to find skyshards with or without add-ons on PC vsConsole?

Let's talk seriously about the place it actually might matter - conpetitive PVE content.

Something for you to consider is that ZOS gives PC players three major advantages over Console players for competitive PVE content.

1. PTS Access.
Now, we can argue over whether its ZOS or the console providers' fault that console players don't have a PTS, but it's hard to overstate the advantage that PTS access gives competitive PC players. PC Players can test numerous builds for free before the Live patch, and can practice end-game content extensively prior to launch.

2. ESO Logs
While Console players make do with their training dummies, PC Players can use ESO Logs to obtain a detailed breakdown of individual and group performance in end game content. Its a fantastic tool that allows raid groups to fine tune their play as they progress through difficult content.

3. Addons.
Already covered in detail in other posts, ZOS allows PC players to use add-ons, some of which allow for detailed DPS breakdowns and combat alerts.


So when it comes to "Are those players really that good if they use add-ons" type questions...look, Console players aren't even playing in the same ballpark as PC Players thanks to ZOS. Between PTS Access and ESO Logs, PC Players have huge advantages over Console players when we consider competitive PVE content even before we bring in Add-ons. That's because of ZOS! (Well, ZOS and console providers, to be honest.)


You know, its a really good thing that PC and Console players don't actually compete. Otherwise, we'd have to field questions like "Can you really say you are that good when you get to use ESO Logs to fine tune your progression raid on vSS?"

Davor

*edit* I made a mistake.

Squidgaurd

No