deepseamk20b14_ESO wrote: »Cheating: fraudulent; dishonest: applied to persons.
False; deceptive; made or fitted to defraud: applied to things.
n. An act of deception, fraud, trickery, imposture, or imposition.
So no. It’s not cheating. Especially when it’s an open option for you as well as your opponent.
It’s like playing football and not wearing a helmet and calling the other team cheaters because they’re wearing one.
I don't think addons are cheating perse, but they do give an advantage over those who do not or CAN NOT use them (low PC specs).
IMO, the addons that become mandatory to use should be baked into the factory UI to balance the playing field.
Those with low PC specs are at a disadvantage in most MMORPGs as it is. Slower response is deadly. When the indication of the area effect is not showing up until a couple seconds later that is a disadvantage.
Imagine walking into an open note test and saying everyone’s notes were cheating because you failed to bring your notes.
That’s the OP
How is that? Just because you say so doesn't make it so. Again, give examples as I said before to show how someone is wrong. In this case how am I wrong? Just trying to shame? I don't understand what you ment. Love an explanation.
I don't think addons are cheating perse, but they do give an advantage over those who do not or CAN NOT use them (low PC specs).
IMO, the addons that become mandatory to use should be baked into the factory UI to balance the playing field.
Those with low PC specs are at a disadvantage in most MMORPGs as it is. Slower response is deadly. When the indication of the area effect is not showing up until a couple seconds later that is a disadvantage.
If an addon becomes so used that it becomes necessary in order to play the game, it should be baked into the UI.
Imagine walking into an open note test and saying everyone’s notes were cheating because you failed to bring your notes.
That’s the OP
How is that? Just because you say so doesn't make it so. Again, give examples as I said before to show how someone is wrong. In this case how am I wrong? Just trying to shame? I don't understand what you ment. Love an explanation.
Donny_Vito wrote: »There are addons that can improve buff/debuff visibility. In extreme cases this gets dismissed as, "it tells you when to do everything." Thing is, it's only relaying information you have access to, and putting it in your face.
Same is true for things Raid Notifier. Raid Notifier cannot give you any information you couldn't get on your own (Except: for telling you the correct names for certain actions. Know what Storm of the Heavens is? You'll find out if you run vAS with Raid Notifier turned on. You could see the ability before, but now you'll have it on your screen.)
I think the only valid argument I see against this is that you're not using the combat and mechanics for how it was designed. Meaning, the intent is for you to look around the fight and identify mechanics as they come. It sorta defeats that purpose when every mechanic is written on your screen. Do I think it's cheating? No, ZoS allows it. But I do think it makes you an inferior player since you have to rely on additional help to beat a fight.
starkerealm wrote: »Not an attack directed at OP, but it baffles me that a lot of console players would jump all over players who use add ons rather than Microsoft and Sony who forbid their use.
People have a distorted perspective of what the addons are. Add in things like CE, and you can understand why people who don't have access to the system can confuse it for mods in something like Skyrim. Not in this thread, obviously, but I've seen people complaining about using addons to make overpowered gear. That's not how the system works, but if you're stuck on PS4 or XB1, you have no way to know that.
Yeah, I can see what you mean. Still, it would be nice if at the 5 year mark the we had more access to a massive part of the game QOL available towards console players. Maybe we need to pestor MS and Sony a bit more relentlessly once the combat changes have become more stable. I've never played on console before, but it seems kind of silly they cant even get a lazy writ crafter.
Edit: It might be easier for ZoS to make some things base game, like a dressing room feature.
starkerealm wrote: »starkerealm wrote: »Not an attack directed at OP, but it baffles me that a lot of console players would jump all over players who use add ons rather than Microsoft and Sony who forbid their use.
People have a distorted perspective of what the addons are. Add in things like CE, and you can understand why people who don't have access to the system can confuse it for mods in something like Skyrim. Not in this thread, obviously, but I've seen people complaining about using addons to make overpowered gear. That's not how the system works, but if you're stuck on PS4 or XB1, you have no way to know that.
Yeah, I can see what you mean. Still, it would be nice if at the 5 year mark the we had more access to a massive part of the game QOL available towards console players. Maybe we need to pestor MS and Sony a bit more relentlessly once the combat changes have become more stable. I've never played on console before, but it seems kind of silly they cant even get a lazy writ crafter.
Edit: It might be easier for ZoS to make some things base game, like a dressing room feature.
The dirty truth to the addons is, some of them are pretty messy. Auto Categories can downright break, requiring you to dig into the files with notepad to fix damaged data.
I seriously suspect the reason you can't get addons on console is simply that they could never get them past cert. Still, I feel you, and some of the major stuff should be baked into the base game UI. Now, ZOS has been doing that, with stuff like multi-craft getting baked straight into the game, so there is some hope.
starkerealm wrote: »starkerealm wrote: »Not an attack directed at OP, but it baffles me that a lot of console players would jump all over players who use add ons rather than Microsoft and Sony who forbid their use.
People have a distorted perspective of what the addons are. Add in things like CE, and you can understand why people who don't have access to the system can confuse it for mods in something like Skyrim. Not in this thread, obviously, but I've seen people complaining about using addons to make overpowered gear. That's not how the system works, but if you're stuck on PS4 or XB1, you have no way to know that.
Yeah, I can see what you mean. Still, it would be nice if at the 5 year mark the we had more access to a massive part of the game QOL available towards console players. Maybe we need to pestor MS and Sony a bit more relentlessly once the combat changes have become more stable. I've never played on console before, but it seems kind of silly they cant even get a lazy writ crafter.
Edit: It might be easier for ZoS to make some things base game, like a dressing room feature.
The dirty truth to the addons is, some of them are pretty messy. Auto Categories can downright break, requiring you to dig into the files with notepad to fix damaged data.
I seriously suspect the reason you can't get addons on console is simply that they could never get them past cert. Still, I feel you, and some of the major stuff should be baked into the base game UI. Now, ZOS has been doing that, with stuff like multi-craft getting baked straight into the game, so there is some hope.
I think so too.
During the development of the single player games of Elder Scrolls, particularly from part 3 to 5 you could see this, the modding community basically gave the developers new ideas. The same could be said about creators of addons, so I think it's just a matter of time until you don't need to download certain addons any more.
starkerealm wrote: »starkerealm wrote: »starkerealm wrote: »Not an attack directed at OP, but it baffles me that a lot of console players would jump all over players who use add ons rather than Microsoft and Sony who forbid their use.
People have a distorted perspective of what the addons are. Add in things like CE, and you can understand why people who don't have access to the system can confuse it for mods in something like Skyrim. Not in this thread, obviously, but I've seen people complaining about using addons to make overpowered gear. That's not how the system works, but if you're stuck on PS4 or XB1, you have no way to know that.
Yeah, I can see what you mean. Still, it would be nice if at the 5 year mark the we had more access to a massive part of the game QOL available towards console players. Maybe we need to pestor MS and Sony a bit more relentlessly once the combat changes have become more stable. I've never played on console before, but it seems kind of silly they cant even get a lazy writ crafter.
Edit: It might be easier for ZoS to make some things base game, like a dressing room feature.
The dirty truth to the addons is, some of them are pretty messy. Auto Categories can downright break, requiring you to dig into the files with notepad to fix damaged data.
I seriously suspect the reason you can't get addons on console is simply that they could never get them past cert. Still, I feel you, and some of the major stuff should be baked into the base game UI. Now, ZOS has been doing that, with stuff like multi-craft getting baked straight into the game, so there is some hope.
I think so too.
During the development of the single player games of Elder Scrolls, particularly from part 3 to 5 you could see this, the modding community basically gave the developers new ideas. The same could be said about creators of addons, so I think it's just a matter of time until you don't need to download certain addons any more.
Uh.. we're past that point already. In game multicraft is vastly superior to the addon.
I don't think addons are cheating perse, but they do give an advantage over those who do not or CAN NOT use them (low PC specs).
IMO, the addons that become mandatory to use should be baked into the factory UI to balance the playing field.
Those with low PC specs are at a disadvantage in most MMORPGs as it is. Slower response is deadly. When the indication of the area effect is not showing up until a couple seconds later that is a disadvantage.
Your post is 100% irrelevant to the discussion.
If an addon becomes so used that it becomes necessary in order to play the game, it should be baked into the UI.
Thank you for replying, always nice to see you and correct your mistakes.
So much to read and reply to. Great points made. Just wanted to say something here.wenchmore420b14_ESO wrote: »
First off, FallOut76 is a bad comparison.
Sorry I see I haven't explained myself. In no way am I comparing this to Fallout 76. I only mentioned Fallout 76 is because that is where the idea popped in my head, and where it started me thinking if it is true and if true how it would apply to ESO. Hence I made the thread here.
I have read a few good points made, people have said Zenimax Online endorses it. Right there, that I totally forgot is that no, it's not a cheat.
Can it be said it's legal cheating though? Yes we can look up on Google and various web sites to find an answer or location. I do that many times. That is cheating though. It doesn't hurt anyone EXCEPT when someone claims they are better than someone else.
It's one to have played the game and know where the locations are. Thing is, when some of these "smart people" who claim that this is the way to play ESO, why is it they have skyshards locations, book locations etc? After all if you are so "smart" why need cheats to find them?
"It's a time saver some will say." Time saver or not, that is cheating because you are not finding it the natural way of playing the game of finding it yourself. Again, different if you can remember, but since people use them means they can't remember where they are and need them to get their skill points.
So now we have some people (not saying all, but some) who claim to be "better" than others, or say "this is the way to play". So if they are so knowladgeable, then why use them in the first place? How can we trust someone who "just says so without explanation" when you see they need help playing the game.
Or someone else say "I am better than you so you should be doing this" to someone else but they use these Quality of Life features or plain cheating? Why is it cheating? For most it saves time. Time not to stop and look at map, time not to search for skyshard or books to get skill points and achievements. Yes it's one thing to go online and check for yourself, but it's another to have it in the game. So it is a cheat because now you don't have to take time to do it. While it does seem trivial, I just get a kick for someone to make a new alt and then say they are better than someone else because it takes them less time to do so than others who are not "as good" but don't use them. Does this make sense?
While it is still allowed by Zenimax Online, it's still an advantage that the developers didn't want people to have. So we are playing a way that Zenimax didn't originally want, or it would have been in the game. I look it as jay walking. In lots of places, it's against the law, but most people who do it, never get charged for doing so. Not really a big deal but just one of those just because it's allowed don't mean it is still not wrong. Does that make sense? Yes I know once Zenimax Online says something is legal then it is.
How can a cyber jock claim he is so good or much better than someone else or claim a game should be played this way when they take short cuts and someone who doesn't take short cuts but then is just as good as other person but just took a few days, weeks, months more to achieve. They are better because they "saved" time and didn't want to take the time and there fore doing something on equal footing wasn't done, so it is a cheat. Legal or not.
Back to reading the other posts.
Squidgaurd wrote: »deepseamk20b14_ESO wrote: »Cheating: fraudulent; dishonest: applied to persons.
False; deceptive; made or fitted to defraud: applied to things.
n. An act of deception, fraud, trickery, imposture, or imposition.
So no. It’s not cheating. Especially when it’s an open option for you as well as your opponent.
It’s like playing football and not wearing a helmet and calling the other team cheaters because they’re wearing one.
This
VaranisArano wrote: »Imagine walking into an open note test and saying everyone’s notes were cheating because you failed to bring your notes.
That’s the OP
How is that? Just because you say so doesn't make it so. Again, give examples as I said before to show how someone is wrong. In this case how am I wrong? Just trying to shame? I don't understand what you ment. Love an explanation.
Its an analogy. PC and Console are two different classrooms. PC gets an open note test. Console gets a closed note test (thanks to their Console providers not providing PTS, ESO Logs, or add-ons). Everyone knew that ahead of time when they bought ESO for their platform.
On the PC Open note test, everyone is allowed to have their notes out to get answers. There are no extra prizes for not bringing your notes except for maybe feeling smug that "I didnt need my notes, even though they were totally allowed." If you call students using their notes "cheaters", they are going to laugh, because its an open note test. Notes are 100% allowed, and your grade isn't somehow more valid because you didnt use your notes. In fact, if you missed answers because you didnt use your notes, its a valid question to ask "You know its an open note test, right?"
There's just no point in comparing the two tests.
I don't think addons are cheating perse, but they do give an advantage over those who do not or CAN NOT use them (low PC specs).
IMO, the addons that become mandatory to use should be baked into the factory UI to balance the playing field.
Those with low PC specs are at a disadvantage in most MMORPGs as it is. Slower response is deadly. When the indication of the area effect is not showing up until a couple seconds later that is a disadvantage.
Your post is 100% irrelevant to the discussion.
If an addon becomes so used that it becomes necessary in order to play the game, it should be baked into the UI.
Thank you for replying, always nice to see you and correct your mistakes.
So you make a comment about the disadvantage of those who cannot use addons due to low PC specs and when I essentially agree with you and state they are normally at a disadvantage for multiple reasons my comment is irrelevant to the discussion. Hmm
Thorvik_Tyrson wrote: »Imagine walking into an open note test and saying everyone’s notes were cheating because you failed to bring your notes.
That’s the OP
How is that? Just because you say so doesn't make it so. Again, give examples as I said before to show how someone is wrong. In this case how am I wrong? Just trying to shame? I don't understand what you ment. Love an explanation.
Davor: After reading several of your posts/responses, I have to say that if you don't understand this analogy, then your not going to be able to have the discussion/conversation that your original post talks about.
Your original post seems to be saying "mods are cheats, convince me otherwise" and as long as you hold to that premise, then I do not see that there really is any discussion to be made. This is what @Jhalin was trying to point out in his post.
IMO, mods are not cheats as they are allowed in the TOS, and industry wide MODs are used in most MMO games. I do not feel that it requires any argument for why they are not cheats. As I have posted in other threads, if you have played other MMO's there are several Quality of Life elements missing from ESO that you can only get from MODs. IMO they should be part of the base game, but they are not. Therefor we use the MODs.
It like asking that old question "Have you stopped beating your wife yet?"
I've only been playing ESO for about 6 months now, I found the base game without mods to be very painful to play when I compared ESO to the other MMO's that I have played in the past 20+ years of my gaming experience. Even the wife was eager to be able to add Mods to her ESO gaming experience.
I can understand your argument for the use of mods in PVP, but if the mod is available to all, is it really cheating if one person decides not to use mods versus the player that chooses to use what is available to them? You cant compare PC to Console as they do not compete against each other.
Sorry to call you out but I did not say that sentence you have attributed to me. While I cannot disagree that arguing over who is better is rather childish and really not relevant to the discussion of what is cheating, I do not like words being put into my mouth that I never said.
So please correct your quote.
Is an ESO+ subscription cheating? Think of all the advantages over those people who might not have access to Cloudrest or Sunspire, let alone an infinite crafting bag.
You mean open book test. I never herd of open note test. OK this makes sense now. Never herd that expression before. For us in Ontario at least back in the day it was "open book test". We hardly ever had them. Notes were on paper and were never allowed to be brought. This is why it seemed so weird for me.