PTS Update 21 - Feedback Thread for Racial Passive Changes

Minno

BlueRaven wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

also you all forgot about this tidbit from the rep meeting:
"Bosmer: ZOS has heard concerns about the stackable powerful movement speed. Bosmers will still get a speed boost off dodge, it just wont be as high. Bosmers will get some short damage bonus as compensation. Note: Reps specifically asked about the community’s concern that bosmers are trading stealth for different buffs. We were told that ZOS saw these concerns and would work on creating more options/systems for stealth gameplay outside of race. With these additions, stealth gameplay will open up to more players, and also allow bosmers to have the nice combat buff will still having avenues to be as stealthy as before"

Bosmer probably won't see stealth returned. Might as well get something better added .

Did you just discover that quote? We have been asking for clarification about it since they posted it. They are taking away stealth and saying that maybe, someday, possibly there can be a way to get some stealth back. Fantastic. Meanwhile I rolled a bosmer to be stealthy right now, not sometime in the future.

This "We'll do it later" attitude is what kids say to get out homework, it's not a way to balance races.
"Hey altmer, your magikcka dps is not up to par now, but don't worry in the future ALL races will be able to fling around spells equally. We are working on a system that will be implemented at sometime in the future." This would not cut it on these forums. So don't try to pass if off as a solution here.

If they want to remove stealth and implement a new system for it, fine. But don't remove stealth and then say the fix is "TBD". If they have a plan then let's see it.

•••

You want to see a suggestion? Well here's one. How about we remove the stealth detection and role which does not fit the lore. (Do players ever see these passives in later games? They do not.) And implement say a 3m stealth buff, and some sort of damage bonus when attacking from stealth. There, that's a solution.

Probably NDA now. I'd be willing to bet you'll have to buy the chapter in order to get those stealth sets lol.

IronWooshu

I made a post on the 15% share reduction for Redguard. As a Warden main who has it in his passive already, its completely useless because you're going to break free before you let the reduced time on the snare break you free or you will be dead.

Unless you have some major changes to snares in the future this passive isnt meaningful.... like at all.

karthrag_inak

ah to be a redguard and have snare reduction be the only thing to worry about. -sigh-

Silver_Strider

Can Argonian get a slight bump to their Max Magic, say from the 1250-1500 range? Or ANYTHING to help them out as DPS?

olsborg

Rolldodging to gain offencive stats (bosmer penetration) is not smart imo. Rolldodging is defencive action and too costly and time consuming to use in an offencive capacity/routine.
Please rework to resists or some snare cleanse.

Jaimeh

@ZOS_Gilliam I'm dissapointed at no further updates to dunmer passives. This jack-of-all trades approach is not useful for PvE, there is no reason why to pick dunmer for mag DPS (which is weird, considering the race), since they don't have an edge over other contenders. It leaves the class at a niche area. I wish we had elemental damage brought back, instead of added resistances, it only comes in handy in certain scenarios, and can be easily compensated.

Wolfahm

twing1_ wrote: »

I will agree with you, for your admittedly very niche build it is a nerf.

But the point of the change was that Khajit were over performing in magicka dd roles and are now a bit more balanced (as they, generally speaking, are being nerfed with this change on account of their lower crit chance in comparison to stamina builds) while the stamina dps side of things remains more or less unchanged, keeping them in a competitive position on both sides of the coin.

You clearly did not experiment on live nor PTS if you think that is true, do you even play one? If anything was over preforming it was minor and caused by the shadow mundus. revert shadow buff don't break everyone's set ups for khajiit.

8% crit = 2 set bonus 258 dmg = 2 set bonus ... the only reason the passive was targeted was Shadow buff. stop being [snip] and fix the cause.

[Edit for bait.]

spiralvin

I like the change towards 10% more crit damage and healing. Certainly feels much more unique, compared to that free Thief mundus boon they had in 4.3.0-4.3.2.

Still quite upset about the change to Altmer's Spell Recharge passive though.

Strider__Roshin

Unless you're specifically a PvE tank, I find Nords to be completely useless next update.

twing1_

Daus wrote: »

Unless you're specifically a PvE tank, I find Nords to be completely useless next update.

1500 stam isn't the worst stam dd bonus. Couple that with ultigen, they could make a pretty solid war machine stamblade. Very niche, admittedly, but there are other races in more compromising positions.

Argonians only have 1000 max mag on the offensive side of things.

Strider__Roshin

twing1_ wrote: »

Daus wrote: »

Unless you're specifically a PvE tank, I find Nords to be completely useless next update.

1500 stam isn't the worst stam dd bonus. Couple that with ultigen, they could make a pretty solid war machine stamblade. Very niche, admittedly, but there are other races in more compromising positions.

Argonians only have 1000 max mag on the offensive side of things.

And fantastic resource management.

FilteredRiddle

Imperial continues to improve! I still think there is additional room for enhancement though.

After last week's update, I made a suggestion to change their stats as follows:

Imperial:
- Increases Experience gain in One Hand and Shield Skill Line by 15%, extra 1% Gold gain → Increases Experience gain in any Melee Skill Line* by 15%, extra 1% Gold gain.
- 12% Max Health + 10% Max Stamina → Increases your Max Health and Max Stamina by 1000.
- New Passive → Increase Melee Weapon Damage by 258.
- 10% Chance on Melee Attack to heal for 6% of Max Health → When you deal Direct Damage you restore 650 Health and Stamina. This effect has a 5 second cooldown. Reduces the cost of your Block and Bash abilities by 5%.

*Two-Handed, Dual-Wield, and One Hand and Shield

Given PTS Patch Notes v4.3.3's big improvement, I think that could/should be reasonably updated to:

Imperial:
- Increases Experience gain in One Hand and Shield Skill Line by 15%, extra 1% Gold gain → Increases Experience gain in any Melee Skill Line by 15%, extra 1% Gold gain.
- 12% Max Health + 10% Max Stamina → Increases your Max Health and Max Stamina by 1000.
- New Passive → Increase Melee Weapon Damage by 258.
- 10% Chance on Melee Attack to heal for 6% of Max Health → When you deal Direct Damage you restore 650 Health and Stamina. This effect has a 5 second cooldown. Reduces the cost of your abilities by 3%.

If for some reason ZOS wanted to give in to the complaints that Magicka need be included (I don't think it's necessary, given the in-game lore history and minority of actual lore users to the size of the Cyrodiliic population but...), it could actually be changed following a suggestion I previously made:

Imperial:
- Increases Experience gain in One Hand and Shield Skill Line by 15%, extra 1% Gold gain → Increases Experience gain in any Melee or Staff Skill Line by 10%, extra 1% Gold gain.
- 12% Max Health + 10% Max Stamina → Increases your Max Health and Max Stamina by 1000.
- New Passive → Increase Melee Weapon or Staff Damage by 258, based on your highest maximum resource.
- 10% Chance on Melee Attack to heal for 6% of Max Health → When you deal Direct Damage you restore 650 Health and either Stamina or Magicka based on your highest maximum resource. This effect has a 5 second cooldown. Reduces the cost of your abilities by 3%.

Silver_Strider

Daus wrote: »

twing1_ wrote: »

Daus wrote: »

Unless you're specifically a PvE tank, I find Nords to be completely useless next update.

1500 stam isn't the worst stam dd bonus. Couple that with ultigen, they could make a pretty solid war machine stamblade. Very niche, admittedly, but there are other races in more compromising positions.

Argonians only have 1000 max mag on the offensive side of things.

And fantastic resource management.

Fantastic is a stretch as far as PvE DPS is concerned, but it's better than having none at all.

Eiron77

Feels like ZOS is trolling Bosmers with these racial updates. Been trying hard to get them to change their minds about stealth detection and give us reduced stealth radius back. But no changes and it remains on Khajit only.
When they added the useless pen. to roll dodge, I asked for +Dmg/Healing to criticals as static passive instead. You know, a small benefit, but beneficial and useful across the board. Not game breaking or anything.

So, without any prompting from any feedback I'd seen in these threads, they change the Khajits to get that passive.

Coincidence probably, but still feels like they're trolling me...

Rungar

final suggestions:

Nord: +5% block and bash cost reduction
Argonian: +1000 stam and restore old potion and healing passives
Altmer: shield strength cap passive rather than low resource regen
Dunmer : low resource regen passive 1750 mag/stam
Redguard: no changes
Breton: no changes
Orc: no changes
Imperial: no changes
Bosmer: no changes
Kajitt: not sure.

martijnlv40

Jaimeh wrote: »

@ZOS_Gilliam I'm dissapointed at no further updates to dunmer passives. This jack-of-all trades approach is not useful for PvE, there is no reason why to pick dunmer for mag DPS (which is weird, considering the race), since they don't have an edge over other contenders. It leaves the class at a niche area. I wish we had elemental damage brought back, instead of added resistances, it only comes in handy in certain scenarios, and can be easily compensated.

Yeah I want the elemental damage back as well. How about lowering the resource bonus to 1750, and giving them 150 spell damage to flame abilities? This would change it back to why people take the race on live, which is a great thing in general.

Eiron77

Rungar wrote: »

final suggestions:

Bosmer: no changes

If you dont know us, don't speak for us. Stealth detection passive needs to change and go away. It's pretty much useless, even in PvP.

Crappy pen. added after roll dodge needs to change to something useful in PvE and PvP. Like, wpn/spl dmg, or next ability cast within 6s costs no resource, or next damaging attack is guaranteed crit. & does extra dmg, or something that doesn't deal with a stat that can be capped... And that's not even getting into the crappiness of having a racial passive tied to a high resource cost (3.6k stam.) maneuver! AND not even getting into the fact that it's nearly the same as a passive already available in the bow skill line that most bosmers will have, given their initial passive increases experience gained with bows. It's like they hate bosmers!

The whole concept of the current iteration of the Hunter's Eye passive is just a massive joke.

So I see plenty of need to change it.

dave_harter_ESO

The recent Altmer and Bosmer changes have taken me and my group of friends who play AD from being very excited about the upcoming Elsweyr expansion to doubting whether or not we will play it.

The Altmer changes are a significant decrease in the quality of life for Altmer healers and magika dps outside of raids aka 97% of the game.The Bosmer changes make no sense what so ever. The stealth detection passive is pretty much worthless. People do not roll around on the ground in a forest. They hide behind trees. Change the passive to involve stealth and be worth something for pve.

SilverPaws

Revert the recent khajiit changes please.

Finedaible

The only players saying Khajiit changes in 4.3.3 are good are coming from the Altmer mains who were outraged that another race could achieve the same dps they could, and are just as much pissed off at this point as Khajiit mains or Bosmer mains. I'm not trying to antagonize Altmer mains, in fact I wish Altmer got their magicka recovery back and Bosmer got something useful, I'm just reminding that we shouldn't be approving a poor development decision by ZoS onto the preferred races of other players in favor of our own. I agree that Bosmer and Altmer passives suck as they are now, but please understand that we are all in this crap-fest of random changes this PTS because ZoS will not listen to its player base. Maybe Devs (or their higher-ups) simply have an agenda to push with the crown store, maybe they simply don't care about our opinions, maybe they are clueless and throwing darts at a board, who even knows? With little to no communication, we are left i this dense fog of bewilderment.

On a closing note to anyone that has a say in the matter (I've no clue if anyone even reads these posts) :
- Give Altmer a meaningful magicka passive back. They need their magicka sustain as one of the mightiest magicka races in the lore. MAAAAAGICKA.
- Give Bosmer a rework of the dodge-roll passive. Heck, revert the passive back to stealth passives from before the PTS if you must because the roll-dodge gimmick is clearly utter garbage. Any player will tell you the same.
- Revert Khajiit changes to patch 4.3.2. Nerf the buff to Shadow mundus or take away health recovery if you have to. Just don't make us have to take the boring builds like any other stamina/magicka dps by taking Khajiiti critical chance away. The one race which felt unique and flexible has lost that uniqueness and flexibility with this latest patch.
- Give Dunmer something unique. Right now they are pretty much the same as Altmer aside from the backwards 'spell recharge' passive.
- Argonians might appreciate some extra damage for dps setups. Stop buffing the potion passive, you guys clearly did not learn from that one.
- Orc is too op.
- Breton, Nord, Redguard, and Imperial are at least acceptable as they are now, though I'm sure others may not feel the same way. I still think Redguard is a tad too overloaded though, and it baffles me why devs continue to buff them after all these years as THE kings of stamina.

Kalle_Demos

martijnlv40 wrote: »

Jaimeh wrote: »

@ZOS_Gilliam I'm dissapointed at no further updates to dunmer passives. This jack-of-all trades approach is not useful for PvE, there is no reason why to pick dunmer for mag DPS (which is weird, considering the race), since they don't have an edge over other contenders. It leaves the class at a niche area. I wish we had elemental damage brought back, instead of added resistances, it only comes in handy in certain scenarios, and can be easily compensated.

Yeah I want the elemental damage back as well. How about lowering the resource bonus to 1750, and giving them 150 spell damage to flame abilities? This would change it back to why people take the race on live, which is a great thing in general.

I agree. Players gave built their Dunmer around this specific passive for years and to gut it and replace it with spell damage is a sweeping, boring, lore problematic change that makes them barely indistinguishable from Altmer with whom they shared a top Mag DPS spot with that is now completely owned by Brentons. These alterations as well as the ones made to Bosmer and Altmer should be revisited so that they resemble the goals the team set forth.

Eiron77

Posting this here in the official feedback thread about a poll on these forums relating to the wood elf, Hunter's Eye passive.

The poll can be found here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/5823141#Comment_5823141

Eiron77 wrote: »

Now as of current date with 72 votes, results remain at a high 80% are unhappy with the Hunters Eye passive (57 votes), as of 4.3.3 patch notes.

80% do not want stealth detection.


Of those 57 who want the passive changed, ~62% do not want the dodge roll.

This should clearly show ZOS that Hunter's Eye is not well received and requires a massive overhaul.

Narvuntien

So now I have seen more dps parse data.

The imperial change seems really good well done.

Khajit has dropped from clear first to great for nightblades and not great for anything else. My suggestion: How about a middle ground 5% crit chance and 5% crit damage. Although that will need testing.

Bosmer seems rather weak for dps only good on classes that are really struggling for sustain need a small damage bonus. My Suggestion: have a flat penetration bonus that is doubled after a dodge roll.

Altmer okay they still have really good dps but I still think spell recharge is useless. My Suggestion: Change the channelling resistances bonus to be the increased resistances after using a class ability.

MLGProPlayer

zaria wrote: »

IlCanis_LupuslI wrote: »

Plz revert the khajiit changes back to 4.3.2
Crit damage may be nice for raids but are utterly useless on pvp builds who because of impenetrable don't spec into having high crit ratios.
@ZOS_Gilliam

Why no dev comment on such an radical change?

ZOS has no idea what they're doing. By commenting, they open themselves up to criticism.

MLGProPlayer

Breton currently have top DPS and top sustain.

ZOS said they wanted to avoid this scenario when they nerfed Altmer in 4.3.1 (even though Altmer was never top DPS and top sustain).

Can we get an explanation for why this is okay all of a sudden? What reason does someone have to ever pick Altmer over Breton?

The simple fix to this would be to just revert the 4.3.1 nerfs to spell recharge. Breton would STILL have better sustain, but at least the gap would shrink, and I think most people would be fine with that.

Tenetomb

Stamina races aren't balanced at all.
Orc is winning in every scenario, followed by Dunmer...

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/458985/raid-buffed-dps-test-each-class-each-dd-race-pts-4-3-3/p1

I did some maths too and i don't see how we could go further without Orc / Dunmer nerf. (Lower max stam bonus to 1k)
Other races seem well balanced.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en-gb/discussion/comment/5824352#Comment_5824352

In my maths, buffing Khajit crit damage to 14% seems mandatory. In parses, where everything is taken into account, it seems balanced with other races, but not Orc/Dunmer !

Arciris

People cried Khajiit was Overperforming because of a +300 to 500 DPS in Trial setting, while being 2º or 3º on 4 men, solo content.
But now that Khajiit is behind by 1k,DPS, they say everything is "balanced" - the hypocrisy of these forums.

And it's not even about the numbers, who cares about the numbers.

It's about FUN.
You took a passive that was FUN to build around, the crit chance (high build diversity) and turned it into something dull and boring that shoehorns Khajiit into building for high critical chance.

Couldn't you just have nerfed the passive to +7% critical chance instead ? (from 8%)
The numbers would have been brought in line and the FUN would have been preserved.

Also about Apemer *cough, cough* sorry, about Bosmer, is there really a reason to upset that many Bosmer players?

Personal PoV:
I have 2 mains, one is a Dunmer Stamplar (or Magplar, depending on my mood) and the other an Argonian Magsorc.
I was thinking race changing that Dunmer (that I don't like that much anymore) to a fluffy cute kitty for Elsweyr but now I will most likely won't. Why?
Because I feel I will have far less limitations building around the Dunmer passives (having FUN theorycraftting builds) that I would with Khajiit. Khajiit just looks extremely boring, boring and more boring.
On a side note, I never saw anyone in Tamriel refer to Khajiits or other Senches for that matter as "feline". Feline Ambush sounds more like something from IRL and breaks my immersion. I liked Carnage a lot better.

John_Falstaff

I'll agree, once again. Khajiits weren't overperforming (see parses from @susmitds ), but without any justification, they were just stripped of something unique that allowed them to build in different ways than other races. Now they're falling behind orcs and dunmers on stamina, bretons and altmers on magicka, and the gap will be all the more in trials where they'll benefit the least from high warhorn uptime. Crit damage basically forces them to build into crit meta, and even so they're not in good place. It's the worst change imaginable.

aeowulf

The only thing i'd change on imperial would be to remove the 2k mx stamina and replace it with 1500 stam/mag making them a little more 'all round' but without reducing their DPS by much at all.

Still think the Bosmer racials need looking at as they do not stack up well in PVE

colossalvoids

Tenetomb wrote: »

Stamina races aren't balanced at all.
Orc is winning in every scenario, followed by Dunmer...

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/458985/raid-buffed-dps-test-each-class-each-dd-race-pts-4-3-3/p1

I did some maths too and i don't see how we could go further without Orc / Dunmer nerf. (Lower max stam bonus to 1k)
Other races seem well balanced.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en-gb/discussion/comment/5824352#Comment_5824352

In my maths, buffing Khajit crit damage to 14% seems mandatory. In parses, where everything is taken into account, it seems balanced with other races, but not Orc/Dunmer !

Are you taking into account orc/dunmer having no sustain at all? With dw enchants changes they will slot regen jewelry glyphs instead of absorb on infused offhand weapon, as absorb instead of backbar berserker is pointless loss outside of a dummy. And even then sustain will not be as good of course. In real raid scenario bosmer(especially as their regen not being associated with dealing damage)/redguard will be able to go with full light attack rotation while dunmers and orcs will be unable to do so without sacrifices in dps such as foods, berserker, glyphs and heavy attacks.