PTS Update 21 - Feedback Thread for Racial Passive Changes

Koronach

SpringEternal wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

SpringEternal wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

SpringEternal wrote: »

CeaseSphire wrote: »

Might be a broken record here if someone has already stated this my bad. But according to lore it shouldn't Wood elves be resilient to disease damage and Argonians shrug off poison? Why would you change that and destroy your own lore?

Whole reason why I made most of my werewolves wood elves is to negate the disease weakness. *throws up hands*

Why not both? According to the lore, both Argonians and Bosmer have resistances to both disease and poison. Don't buy into the false dichotomy.

This is true, but the Bosmer have a stronger claim to disease resistance, and the Argonians a stronger claim to poison resistance. If the dichotomy was going to be introduced, then the racials for disease and poison should have gone to the other race from what we see now.

That's debatable, and I disagree. My point is that the premise (races need to be completely unique despite the lore) is flawed. We could argue about changes made as a consequence of that faulty premise, but I'm suggesting our energy would be better spent challenging the premise in the first place.

In 2/3 of the games where there were such things as disease and poison resistance, Bosmer had no poison resistance and Argonians had 100% poison resistance. Bosmer only had disease resistance in those 2 games, which Argonians also had. The outlier is Skyrim where Bosmer had disease resistance again, but added poison resistance. Bosmer have a very, very weak claim to poison resistance of any kind. Argonians have a very strong one. Ideally, and what I've proposed in the relevant thread, Argonians should have both, with immunity to the poison effect while Bosmer should have only the disease resistance and immunity to the diseased effect.

I do agree with you that the 'every part of every passive must be completely unique' concept has been taken to an absurd extreme.

Alright, so I guess you do want to debate about this.

Argonians in Skyrim had 0% poison resistance and 100% disease resistance, which gives a precedent for the most recent changes. More importantly, passives are not the be all end all of lore. Historical events, mythology, quest dialogue, etc. are important too.

Argonians are the only reptilian race, and they have a distinct origin in the Hist that sets them apart from all the other races. Everybody else descends from the Ehlnofey. Given this, it makes sense that Argonians would be more resistant to diseases that spread among men and mer. Then there's the Knahaten Flu. Argonians are carriers of a disease that doesn't harm them, but hurts everybody else. The theory is that the Hist wielded the disease like a weapon to protect it's territory. That's epic . And unique to Argonians. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I've yet to come across any in-game reference to Bosmer disease resistance outside of their passives.

As for poison resistance...Before the Green Pact, Bosmer constantly shifted form in order to try and adapt to the hostile environment of the Ooze. They struggled to survive, and were seen as prey to the wildlife around them. Then Y'ffre took the chaos of the Ooze and made the Green. In exchange for Y'frre's patronage and protection, Bosmer promised to protect all plant life in the Valenwood. And so Y'ffre granted them their permanent hardy form. It makes total sense that Bosmer, aka the Tree-Sap people, have poison resistance. Y'ffre blessed them with an affinity for nature, and it's a necessary adaptation given their habitat. The Green Pact is arguably the most significant piece of Bosmeri culture, and poison resistance is currently the only reference to their connection to nature in their passives.

Again, just to re-emphasize, I'm not arguing that Bosmer should be the only ones to have poison resistance. The Green and the Hist give Argonians and Bosmer equally strong claims to poison resistance, imo. They also both have quests in ESO that explicitly mention their resistance to poison. They both have a weird connection to weird ancient sentient trees, and that's a commonality I personally find really intriguing. It's actually one of the reasons I believe the devs single-minded pursuit of uniqueness is misguided. I think the ways that the races are alike has as much merit as what sets them apart.

That's why I feel they should do this or just put the poison/disease passives on Bosmer and Argonians back the way it was. @ZOS_LeamonTuttle Maybe the new loremaster would like to look at this.

Koronach wrote: »

I really hope they realized how bad they messed up with the lore and give back some racial flavor. It wouldn't be so OCD inducing if it hasn't been cemented in the games lore for like 5 years. If they want the passives to be unique give Argonians disease resistance, immunity, and some poison resistance to match the lore (Immune to Knahaten flu and Llodos plague but only states poison resistance) and Bosmer poison resistance, immunity, and some disease resistance. This makes them different and more lore friendly since they don't want races having the same exact passives.

SpringEternal

Koronach wrote: »

SpringEternal wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

SpringEternal wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

SpringEternal wrote: »

CeaseSphire wrote: »

Might be a broken record here if someone has already stated this my bad. But according to lore it shouldn't Wood elves be resilient to disease damage and Argonians shrug off poison? Why would you change that and destroy your own lore?

Whole reason why I made most of my werewolves wood elves is to negate the disease weakness. *throws up hands*

Why not both? According to the lore, both Argonians and Bosmer have resistances to both disease and poison. Don't buy into the false dichotomy.

This is true, but the Bosmer have a stronger claim to disease resistance, and the Argonians a stronger claim to poison resistance. If the dichotomy was going to be introduced, then the racials for disease and poison should have gone to the other race from what we see now.

That's debatable, and I disagree. My point is that the premise (races need to be completely unique despite the lore) is flawed. We could argue about changes made as a consequence of that faulty premise, but I'm suggesting our energy would be better spent challenging the premise in the first place.

In 2/3 of the games where there were such things as disease and poison resistance, Bosmer had no poison resistance and Argonians had 100% poison resistance. Bosmer only had disease resistance in those 2 games, which Argonians also had. The outlier is Skyrim where Bosmer had disease resistance again, but added poison resistance. Bosmer have a very, very weak claim to poison resistance of any kind. Argonians have a very strong one. Ideally, and what I've proposed in the relevant thread, Argonians should have both, with immunity to the poison effect while Bosmer should have only the disease resistance and immunity to the diseased effect.

I do agree with you that the 'every part of every passive must be completely unique' concept has been taken to an absurd extreme.

Alright, so I guess you do want to debate about this.

Argonians in Skyrim had 0% poison resistance and 100% disease resistance, which gives a precedent for the most recent changes. More importantly, passives are not the be all end all of lore. Historical events, mythology, quest dialogue, etc. are important too.

Argonians are the only reptilian race, and they have a distinct origin in the Hist that sets them apart from all the other races. Everybody else descends from the Ehlnofey. Given this, it makes sense that Argonians would be more resistant to diseases that spread among men and mer. Then there's the Knahaten Flu. Argonians are carriers of a disease that doesn't harm them, but hurts everybody else. The theory is that the Hist wielded the disease like a weapon to protect it's territory. That's epic . And unique to Argonians. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I've yet to come across any in-game reference to Bosmer disease resistance outside of their passives.

As for poison resistance...Before the Green Pact, Bosmer constantly shifted form in order to try and adapt to the hostile environment of the Ooze. They struggled to survive, and were seen as prey to the wildlife around them. Then Y'ffre took the chaos of the Ooze and made the Green. In exchange for Y'frre's patronage and protection, Bosmer promised to protect all plant life in the Valenwood. And so Y'ffre granted them their permanent hardy form. It makes total sense that Bosmer, aka the Tree-Sap people, have poison resistance. Y'ffre blessed them with an affinity for nature, and it's a necessary adaptation given their habitat. The Green Pact is arguably the most significant piece of Bosmeri culture, and poison resistance is currently the only reference to their connection to nature in their passives.

Again, just to re-emphasize, I'm not arguing that Bosmer should be the only ones to have poison resistance. The Green and the Hist give Argonians and Bosmer equally strong claims to poison resistance, imo. They also both have quests in ESO that explicitly mention their resistance to poison. They both have a weird connection to weird ancient sentient trees, and that's a commonality I personally find really intriguing. It's actually one of the reasons I believe the devs single-minded pursuit of uniqueness is misguided. I think the ways that the races are alike has as much merit as what sets them apart.

That's why I feel they should do this or just put the poison/disease passives on Bosmer and Argonians back the way it was. @ZOS_LeamonTuttle Maybe the new loremaster would like to look at this.

Koronach wrote: »

I really hope they realized how bad they messed up with the lore and give back some racial flavor. It wouldn't be so OCD inducing if it hasn't been cemented in the games lore for like 5 years. If they want the passives to be unique give Argonians disease resistance, immunity, and some poison resistance to match the lore (Immune to Knahaten flu and Llodos plague but only states poison resistance) and Bosmer poison resistance, immunity, and some disease resistance. This makes them different and more lore friendly since they don't want races having the same exact passives.

That's an elegant solution. I like it!

Now we just need to come up with something similar for Bosmer and Khajiit to share stealth, and then we'll be all set...

Benemime

I don't think imperials are in the right spot yet, I still think it should be a jack-of-all-trades race and it's not, it's another stamina race

armeegrun

I had to race change my three imperials after this update. I'll probably try to work one into some sort of PVP toon at some point and see what happens. Same thing with my MAGDK Dark Elf, race changed her to an Altmer, I have no Dark Elves anymore, and I always thought they looked cool, Maybe I will do the same with a Dark Elf and see how it turns out...

Wolfchild07

Meanwhile, Redguards in Skyrim had 50% poison resist, but got a snare reduction instead.

Strider__Roshin

Wolfchild07 wrote: »

Meanwhile, Redguards in Skyrim had 50% poison resist, but got a snare reduction instead.

Nords is Skyrim were a DPS race, and Orcs were a tanky race. How well do you think ZOS did sticking to lore?

Cundu_Ertur

SpringEternal wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

SpringEternal wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

SpringEternal wrote: »

CeaseSphire wrote: »

Might be a broken record here if someone has already stated this my bad. But according to lore it shouldn't Wood elves be resilient to disease damage and Argonians shrug off poison? Why would you change that and destroy your own lore?

Whole reason why I made most of my werewolves wood elves is to negate the disease weakness. *throws up hands*

Why not both? According to the lore, both Argonians and Bosmer have resistances to both disease and poison. Don't buy into the false dichotomy.

This is true, but the Bosmer have a stronger claim to disease resistance, and the Argonians a stronger claim to poison resistance. If the dichotomy was going to be introduced, then the racials for disease and poison should have gone to the other race from what we see now.

That's debatable, and I disagree. My point is that the premise (races need to be completely unique despite the lore) is flawed. We could argue about changes made as a consequence of that faulty premise, but I'm suggesting our energy would be better spent challenging the premise in the first place.

In 2/3 of the games where there were such things as disease and poison resistance, Bosmer had no poison resistance and Argonians had 100% poison resistance. Bosmer only had disease resistance in those 2 games, which Argonians also had. The outlier is Skyrim where Bosmer had disease resistance again, but added poison resistance. Bosmer have a very, very weak claim to poison resistance of any kind. Argonians have a very strong one. Ideally, and what I've proposed in the relevant thread, Argonians should have both, with immunity to the poison effect while Bosmer should have only the disease resistance and immunity to the diseased effect.

I do agree with you that the 'every part of every passive must be completely unique' concept has been taken to an absurd extreme.

Alright, so I guess you do want to debate about this.

Argonians in Skyrim had 0% poison resistance and 100% disease resistance, which gives a precedent for the most recent changes. More importantly, passives are not the be all end all of lore. Historical events, mythology, quest dialogue, etc. are important too.

Argonians are the only reptilian race, and they have a distinct origin in the Hist that sets them apart from all the other races. Everybody else descends from the Ehlnofey. Given this, it makes sense that Argonians would be more resistant to diseases that spread among men and mer. Then there's the Knahaten Flu. Argonians are carriers of a disease that doesn't harm them, but hurts everybody else. The theory is that the Hist wielded the disease like a weapon to protect it's territory. That's epic . And unique to Argonians. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I've yet to come across any in-game reference to Bosmer disease resistance outside of their passives.

As for poison resistance...Before the Green Pact, Bosmer constantly shifted form in order to try and adapt to the hostile environment of the Ooze. They struggled to survive, and were seen as prey to the wildlife around them. Then Y'ffre took the chaos of the Ooze and made the Green. In exchange for Y'frre's patronage and protection, Bosmer promised to protect all plant life in the Valenwood. And so Y'ffre granted them their permanent hardy form. It makes total sense that Bosmer, aka the Tree-Sap people, have poison resistance. Y'ffre blessed them with an affinity for nature, and it's a necessary adaptation given their habitat. The Green Pact is arguably the most significant piece of Bosmeri culture, and poison resistance is currently the only reference to their connection to nature in their passives.

Again, just to re-emphasize, I'm not arguing that Bosmer should be the only ones to have poison resistance. The Green and the Hist give Argonians and Bosmer equally strong claims to poison resistance, imo. They also both have quests in ESO that explicitly mention their resistance to poison. They both have a weird connection to weird ancient sentient trees, and that's a commonality I personally find really intriguing. It's actually one of the reasons I believe the devs single-minded pursuit of uniqueness is misguided. I think the ways that the races are alike has as much merit as what sets them apart.

There is, to my knowledge, not one shred of lore (from an in game book) to support Bosmer having a resistance to poison, aside from Valenwood having poisonous things in it. The thing is, the swamp has lost of poisonous things, too. There is, on the other hand, direct lore where Bosmer used poison again one another. Why bother, if there's an innate resistance to it? Furthermore there is direct lore to support Argonian resistance to poison from multiple sources, most of them ESO specific.

I never said the Bosmer had a strong claim to disease resistance (there is as much lore about that as there is about poison resistance, honestly), only that Argonians have a much stronger claim to poison resistance. From a gameplay perspective, Bosmer have always had disease resistance where a game had racial resistances, but in a lore argument that is weak, and I understand that.

I suspect the devs just flipped a coin.

In any case, this isn't as egregious in my opinion as taking away stealth from the Bosmer or making them the 5th best archers in Tamriel (at best). I just understand and agree with those Argonians who want their resistance to poison back. I honestly have no preference how.

Ace_SiN

Argonians probably lost their poison resistance due to the new racial design (one resist only on a race) and disease resist, arguably, is better fitting a more "enduring" race. Disease has a chance to proc minor defile and this way Argonians can still feel bulkier in the fight (one less source to counter them), so they let Wood Elf keep the poison resist. Personally, I prefer the disease resist on my Argonian as a PvPer. I'll only like it more when I being spammed with Blastbones by all the new Necros.

Koronach

They built lore around Argonians having both resistances in ESO. They should respect the lore, one resist per race is nonsense when the lore states otherwise. They made having both part of Argonians racial identity in ESO, they should respect that.

wedgebert

Koronach wrote: »

They built lore around Argonians having both resistances in ESO. They should respect the lore, one resist per race is nonsense when the lore states otherwise. They made having both part of Argonians racial identity in ESO, they should respect that.

Go look at Bosmer to see how much they care about racial identity

Koronach

wedgebert wrote: »

Koronach wrote: »

They built lore around Argonians having both resistances in ESO. They should respect the lore, one resist per race is nonsense when the lore states otherwise. They made having both part of Argonians racial identity in ESO, they should respect that.

Go look at Bosmer to see how much they care about racial identity

Oh I know, I've already voiced my support about your stealth passive. It's hard to take ZoS seriously when they lie, "We pay attention to the lore." "We want to preserve and maintain established lore." Then you show evidence of said breaking of lore, and they ignore it. I know the rest of Argonian passives are lacking but this is lore and should be the easiest to fix right now.

SpringEternal

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

I never said the Bosmer had a strong claim to disease resistance (there is as much lore about that as there is about poison resistance, honestly), only that Argonians have a much stronger claim to poison resistance.

This discussion started with your statement that Bosmer have a stronger claim to disease resistance than Argonians:

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

This is true, but the Bosmer have a stronger claim to disease resistance, and the Argonians a stronger claim to poison resistance. If the dichotomy was going to be introduced, then the racials for disease and poison should have gone to the other race from what we see now.

Based on the lore, Argonians' claim to disease resistance is much stronger than Bosmers'. Disease also seems to be much more significant to Argonian identity than poison, based on the frequency with which it is mentioned in the lore and how it colors other races interactions with them. So given the artificial limit of only one resistance per race, disease resistance for them makes more sense. But I've always re-iterated that I believe they should have both. I'm firmly in the "Why not both?" camp.

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

There is, to my knowledge, not one shred of lore (from an in game book) to support Bosmer having a resistance to poison, aside from Valenwood having poisonous things in it. The thing is, the swamp has lost of poisonous things, too. There is, on the other hand, direct lore where Bosmer used poison again one another. Why bother, if there's an innate resistance to it? Furthermore there is direct lore to support Argonian resistance to poison from multiple sources, most of them ESO specific.

There's an in-game dialogue that explicitly references their poison immunity. As for the direct lore where Bosmer used poison against one another, I assume you're referring to the Pact Advocate quest? In-game dialogue explains that a magical Nereid elixir was the culprit in that case, not a plant or animal poison. I'm not really invested in poking holes in Argonian poison resistance, since there's plenty of in-game dialogue to support it, and I believe that they should get it back...but for the sake of argument...Argonians have a famous dish, the Aojee-Sakka, made up of two components. Each component is deadly poisonous but serves as the antidote to the other. Why bother pairing them? If they're immune to poison then they should be able to eat each on their own with impunity. We've already had these discussions in other threads though, so at this point it might be best to agree to slightly disagree.

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

In any case, this isn't as egregious in my opinion as taking away stealth from the Bosmer or making them the 5th best archers in Tamriel (at best). I just understand and agree with those Argonians who want their resistance to poison back. I honestly have no preference how.

On this, I almost completely agree. Argonians should have poison and disease resistance, and Bosmers absolutely need their stealth back.

The only thing I would say is that I'd prefer if Argonians don't get poison resistance back at the expense of Bosmer. I've always considered Bosmer poison resistance to be a gameplay representation of their connection to nature/the Green Pact as well as a nod to their natural habitat, in the same way resistance is used in other races. Given how important the Valenwood and Green Pact are to the Bosmers' identity, I wouldn't want poison resistance taken away unless it was replaced with something that could convey the same connections.

Cundu_Ertur

As I stated in the later post, the Bosmer claim to disease resistance was solely based on Morrowind and Oblivion, where they had 50% disease resistance and 0% poison resistance. I also acknowledged that this was weak. There is no written lore of any kind for any resistance for Bosmer (neither poison or disease) that I was able to find. It really isn't a part of the pact. The pact is: stay in your Bosmer form, don't hurt any plant, eat what you kill; in return the forest will provide. No mention of any kind of resistance. What is the conversation where poison resistance for the Bosmer was mentioned? I've not run across it.

In the end it sound like we're not to far apart even if we differ on some of the interpretation of things.

wedgebert

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

As I stated in the later post, the Bosmer claim to disease resistance was solely based on Morrowind and Oblivion, where they had 50% disease resistance and 0% poison resistance. I also acknowledged that this was weak. There is no written lore of any kind for any resistance for Bosmer (neither poison or disease) that I was able to find. It really isn't a part of the pact. The pact is: stay in your Bosmer form, don't hurt any plant, eat what you kill; in return the forest will provide. No mention of any kind of resistance. What is the conversation where poison resistance for the Bosmer was mentioned? I've not run across it.

In the end it sound like we're not to far apart even if we differ on some of the interpretation of things.

I'd say the best lore justification for Bosmer disease resistance is things like making alcoholic drinks out of rotting fermented meat. We're obligate carnivores who are often cannibalistic, those are typically things that lead to either a higher disease resistance or being dead.

Cundu_Ertur

wedgebert wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

As I stated in the later post, the Bosmer claim to disease resistance was solely based on Morrowind and Oblivion, where they had 50% disease resistance and 0% poison resistance. I also acknowledged that this was weak. There is no written lore of any kind for any resistance for Bosmer (neither poison or disease) that I was able to find. It really isn't a part of the pact. The pact is: stay in your Bosmer form, don't hurt any plant, eat what you kill; in return the forest will provide. No mention of any kind of resistance. What is the conversation where poison resistance for the Bosmer was mentioned? I've not run across it.

In the end it sound like we're not to far apart even if we differ on some of the interpretation of things.

I'd say the best lore justification for Bosmer disease resistance is things like making alcoholic drinks out of rotting fermented meat. We're obligate carnivores who are often cannibalistic, those are typically things that lead to either a higher disease resistance or being dead.

I would agree with you. In fact, I just did.

SpringEternal

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

As I stated in the later post, the Bosmer claim to disease resistance was solely based on Morrowind and Oblivion, where they had 50% disease resistance and 0% poison resistance. I also acknowledged that this was weak. There is no written lore of any kind for any resistance for Bosmer (neither poison or disease) that I was able to find. It really isn't a part of the pact. The pact is: stay in your Bosmer form, don't hurt any plant, eat what you kill; in return the forest will provide. No mention of any kind of resistance. What is the conversation where poison resistance for the Bosmer was mentioned? I've not run across it.

The Green Lady explicitly says that "no poison in all of Tamriel could harm my beloved" in reference to the Silvenar. And since we've had this conversation before ... I predict you might try to dismiss this because the Silvenar doesn't count as he's not representative of most Bosmer. Except that's literally his role: "He's the representative of the People, legally, physically, and emotionally. When they're healthy, so is he. When they're mostly female, so is he. When they cry for food or trade or an absence of foreign interference, he feels it too, and makes laws accordingly."

As to why I consider the poison resistance passive to be representative of the Green Pact... Bosmer used to be considered prey to the exceptionally hostile wildlife around them, plant and animal, and shifted form constantly. They prayed to Y'ffre for protection and he granted them their permanent, sacred, hardier form. The terms of the Pact, some of which you've listed, are what they agreed to do in exchange for that protection. Setting the Green Pact aside, it's also just a necessary adaptation to their environment in the Valenwood where they frequently encounter giant spiders and spriggans and stranglers and swallow poisonous frogs whole in rituals dedicated to ancient sentient trees. It's an inference that their poison resistance is derived from their environment and divine given affinity with nature, rather than explicit. So, it's open to interpretation. But I'm pretty sure it's also an inference that Argonian poison resistance is derived from the Hist and their environment, too.

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

In the end it sound like we're not to far apart even if we differ on some of the interpretation of things.

Yep, on the whole, I think we agree on more than we disagree.

wedgebert wrote: »

I'd say the best lore justification for Bosmer disease resistance is things like making alcoholic drinks out of rotting fermented meat. We're obligate carnivores who are often cannibalistic, those are typically things that lead to either a higher disease resistance or being dead.

It makes sense, but disease resistance is never explicitly stated and, in contrast to Argonians, there aren't any examples in the lore of Bosmers having a high resistance to disease. Rather there are the opposite, several examples of them dying to disease. The Thrassian plague devastated the Valenwood so badly it led to their fall to the Cyrodiilic empire. Almost all the followers of a lesser Bosmer deity were wiped out by the Knahaten Flu. The sole survivor railed against Argonians for killing them. The Argonians are immune to the Knahaten Flu and the Llodos Plague. The Black Marsh is explicitly stated to be host to several debilitating diseases and the Hist uses disease to protect it's territory.

Also, Bosmer aren't obligate carnivores. It'd be more accurate to say they're scavenging carnivores, but even still, in practice most Bosmer are omnivores. "All but the most ultra-zealous Pact followers" eat fallen or imported fruits and vegetables, honey, dairy, mushrooms, insects, etc.

And the cannibalism has mostly died out, with the exception of the most fringe tribes. "When death occurs in battle, an archaic provision of the Meat Mandate requires that a fallen enemy must be eaten completely before three days pass. This tradition is now only followed in the most remote and savage villages." -War Customs of the Tribal Bosmer