PTS Update 21 - Feedback Thread for Racial Passive Changes

Finedaible

John_Falstaff wrote: »

I don't think by now that ZOS actually tests anything. The change to khajiits was misguided, they're weaker solo, they're weaker with raid buffs, they're not any stronger as healers (good luck relying on freshly lowered crit chance to make use of critical healing) - and even as PvP gankers, they're not much better. Khajiits had racial identity that relieved them from using a lot of meta sets, running unorthodox choices, and now they're given a weak stat (it's not even fitting their formula of multiples of set bonuses or mundus stones - so I'm not even sure it's calculated in any way) that simply forces them to build for crit. And it's not even an option to carry CPs from precise strikes because everything else is already saturated.

That needs to be reverted. That's mind-boggling, taking away racial identity in one fell swoop.

Well said.

Kalle_Demos

John_Falstaff wrote: »

I don't think by now that ZOS actually tests anything. The change to khajiits was misguided, they're weaker solo, they're weaker with raid buffs, they're not any stronger as healers (good luck relying on freshly lowered crit chance to make use of critical healing) - and even as PvP gankers, they're not much better. Khajiits had racial identity that relieved them from using a lot of meta sets, running unorthodox choices, and now they're given a weak stat (it's not even fitting their formula of multiples of set bonuses or mundus stones - so I'm not even sure it's calculated in any way) that simply forces them to build for crit. And it's not even an option to carry CPs from precise strikes because everything else is already saturated.

That needs to be reverted. That's mind-boggling, taking away racial identity in one fell swoop.

*Nods in Bosmer and Altmer*

Colecovision

Eiron77 wrote: »

Colecovision wrote: »

I spent my eso evening with Limenauruus, Caanerin and a few other bosses playing with stamblades of different races. Bosmer is the clear winner on entertainment for solo pve fun. I really hope the qq about the "useless" dodgeroll passives get ignored. I was just rolling around to avoid stuff like I always do and I averaged around 33% uptime on the pen passive. It was 28% and 30% for limenauruus, but actually fairly high for bosses where I dodge through them as part of keeping them in endless hail. Vet Iceheart was around 40%.

I hope the dodgeroll passives stick. BiS for fun.

Imagine 100% uptime if they made the penetration permanent instead of only applied after spending 3.6k stamina from a chunky roll dodge. Then you could actually plan your stats around the penetration cap. Not many agree that's a fun way to play, but glad there's someone enjoying themselves with a niche passive, in one small portion of pve content.

I for one, won't even bother placing the skill points into Hunters Eye as of 4.3.3.

If someone chooses the solo pve route it's the entire game unless it's locked behind a mechanic. Then almost everything else is duo content. My post applies to all content outside of trials.

But you're right that it only for a handful of players. I just posted so that people understand that it has a purpose in pve combat even if the target dummy ignores it.

Perhaps the important thing for most of the Bosmer mains is that the playstyle these passives support does nothing for a group of 3 or more. Orc is just flat out better for regular groups. If that's a problem for the combat team then I would expect to see changes.

More than the super niche pen bonus that is for damage, I hope the 10% speed buff stays in. It's a very reasonable flavor touch that shouldn't take up too much of the overall value. I think it's in line with the orc sprint bonus.

silvereyes

Colecovision wrote: »

I really hope the qq about the "useless" dodgeroll passives get ignored. I was just rolling around to avoid stuff like I always do and I averaged around 33% uptime on the pen passive.

33-40% uptime? One of two scenarios will ensue:

• Your build's penetration will be too low 60-66% of the time, lowering your DPS; or
• Your dodge-roll penetration bonus will be wasted because your build has enough penetration without the passive

I fail to see how that situation is "fun". It's objectively bad.

Colecovision wrote: »

I hope the 10% speed buff stays in. It's a very reasonable flavor touch that shouldn't take up too much of the overall value. I think it's in line with the orc sprint bonus.

It's nothing like the Orc sprint bonus. Orcs can run faster, drain stamina much slower doing it, and not need to use a clunky dodge/sprint rotation. Their passive is all around better for sprinting, and it's one of the most fun racial passives in the game, imo.

The only time that I even noticed Bosmer's extra speed bonus enough to think, "hey, this is kinda fun," during my tests was when brawling at melee range. It allows you to strafe-attack better. But a 33-40% uptime on the speed boost is hardly worth the DPS loss required to achieve it for group content. You don't need to dodge-roll that often when you have a tank.

I appreciate that building around dodge-rolling can be a fun solo build concept, but it's a fun concept regardless of whether you get an occasional speed boost. I would much rather have a racial passive that applies to more than just niche solo dodge-roll builds, especially since one of the primary design goals of the racial passive changes was to increase build diversity.

Sriivah

Please, please don't let Khajiit go live with the 10% crit damage change. That one change turned Khajiit from one of the best races for dps in the coming patch to mid-tier at best, and one of the worst once you consider things like major force and shadow. Not only that, but having crit chance instead of damage opened up khajiit to play with sets like Veiled Heritance, Ravager, and Briarheart rather than just Advancing Yokeda . Crit damage pigeonholes all Khajiit into Advancing Yokeda or Mother's Sorrow, and they do it worse than any other race just going with Shadow.
Also, the Bosmer and Altmer passives need work as other people have explained much better than I could ever hope to.

Eiron77

Relating to the removal of the Wood Elf racial, Stealthy -

One last update before the weekend...


The poll mentioned in my earlier comment is now at 94 votes, which is very close to 100. This is a fairly good sample size as far as polls are concerned. The results of this poll throughout this week have remained consistent: 80% are unhappy with the stealth detection passive and want it returned to a reduction of detection while in stealth.

4/5 of the Wood Elf population does NOT want their race's stealth benefits removed.

Eiron77 wrote: »

Posting this here in the official feedback thread about a poll on these forums relating to the wood elf, Hunter's Eye passive.

The poll can be found here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/5823141#Comment_5823141

Eiron77 wrote: »

Now as of current date with 72 votes, results remain at a high 80% are unhappy with the Hunters Eye passive (57 votes), as of 4.3.3 patch notes.

80% do not want stealth detection.


Of those 57 who want the passive changed, ~62% do not want the dodge roll.

This should clearly show ZOS that Hunter's Eye is not well received and requires a massive overhaul.

ZOS. PLEASE take these results into consideration. Wood Elves want to keep the stealthy nature of our lore intact. The response to the Class Reps that "ZOS saw these concerns and would work on creating more options/systems for stealth gameplay outside of race.", is not satisfactory and glosses over our main concern: Wood Elf racial identity.
Providing stealth gameplay options outside of race is contradictory to that concern.
(Though, not to detract that this is a great announcement, nonetheless. Improved stealth gameplay options been needed for a long time)

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/456997/class-reps-update-meeting-notes-jan-30-2019/p1

Mattock_Romulus

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Here is a good way to look at Altmer right now.

Why would anyone EVER pick Altmer (other than if they like the way they look)?

They provide the same DPS as Breton/Khajiit/Dunmer, but NOTHING above and beyond what those other races provide.

- Breton = Top magicka DPS + Top magicka sustain
- Khajiit = Top magicka DPS + Top stamina DPS
- Dunmer = Top magicka DPS + Top stamina DPS
- Altmer = Top magicka DPS...

Altmer still best DPS.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_F0pIdxUyEY

BlueRaven

So after reading the notes for 4.3.4 I take it this thread was basically pointless? Your actually KEEPING stealth detect for bosmers in there??? How much clearer can everyone be?

John_Falstaff

So, @ZOS_GinaBruno , will khajiits even deserve a dev note with justification of why they were balanced out of damage dealing picture? They're now the only race that gets worse with raid buffs. Even dunmers, also a hybrid race, are ahead of them.

Suddwrath

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_Gilliam @ZOS_RobGarrett can you please have someone from the combat team get on stream and have a Q&A with the community?

Some of the racial changes were nice, but others were not.

How on earth does it make sense to give Altmers stamina recovery in their Spell Recharge passive?

1. Altmers are known for being spellcasters and magicka damage dealers, so who would even think "Hmmm, I know! Let's give them stamina recovery!"
2. The passive is even called "SPELL Recharge" for crying out loud!

martijnlv40

I really thought that with @ZOS_Gilliam on the team, things would be better, but it seems the balance for a few races (Bosmer and Argonian mostly) is still off, whilst not reaching most of the goals you gave yourself -races should be viable for all roles- and -lore-friendly. That's a pretty bad record if you ask me.

Arciris

The worst part is that we were pretty much promised that the Identity of our characters won't be messed with.

I suppose Devs are the only ones allowed to do some Godmoding over the lives of our characters.

And it is not about the numbers. I'm pretty sure there was a way to bring numbers closer together without affecting the identity of our characters.

Example - Bosmer Stealthy passive removal - impact on DPS: 0, impact on HPS: 0 , impact on tanking: 0 Impact on Bosmer identity, as the players have been playing them: 100 (on a scale from 0 to 100). I see no other reason from the removal of those 3m in sneak apart from the Devs showing us who is the Boss.

Elsweyr is coming and Khajiit have never been that bad.

The only players who are happy about the changes are Orcs, Bretons and Imperials (to some degree) - Nords are meh (since Imperial is now better), everyone else is angry to some level. And again, not because of the Almighty Numbers, at least not only.

Number wise and in PcE, everything just remains the same (why lost so much work time for this?) except, well, Orc.

I've lost all hype over the Chapter, I may buy it when it's on sale.... maybe. I'm also considering canceling my sub, I have 2 accounts and no need for the craft bag,
I have never considered droping my sub before due to changes in the game, not even during the Great Morrowind Fiasco.

But you were messing with the HEART of an RPG game, the character identity. I hope you knew how delicate this is, even though it doesn't look like it,

The_Lex

I'd like to know which developer was truly committed to the Elder Scrolls series and universe before coming to ESO. By committed, I mean, more than a few play-throughs of a game to catch the flavor of the series or because the game was "cool to play" when it was released. Some of these racial passives show zero basis in established lore. Sure, they can be "shoehorned" into lore somehow, but that's not the same thing. And the established lore surrounding racial abilities can be made to work with an MMO - so that's no excuse either.

silvereyes

@ZOS_GinaBruno, are any further changes expected for racial passives at Wrathstone launch? I'm disappointed about the lack of communication from ZOS regarding the passives throughout this PTS cycle.

I must say, I'm pretty dismayed about the Bosmer Hunter's Eye and Altmer Spell Recharge changes from last cycle, and I find it difficult to understand why nobody at ZOS has even acknowledged the uproar.

I main an Altmer, and sure, DPS is fine this patch, but Spell Recharge is a wasted passive now.

Similarly, I think Hunter's Eye was a chance to do something fun and interesting, but now it's not even worth the skill points.
My Bosmer characters have been nothing but crafting alts for 5 years because I don't gank in PvP. I was seriously hoping that Update 21 would make them fun to play finally, but I'll probably keep them as crafting alts. My Orc and Redguard characters look more interesting to spend my time on.

Tommy_The_Gun

Sorry for a small off-topic, but... what is even the point of this thread ? You know, just like the title says "Feedback Thread" ?
24 pages... with good and relatively balanced suggestions... all ignored... Why ?

I value my time highly as it is the resource in live that I have less and less... So when I decide to write a post with feedback, then check it if it is correct (I am not a native English speaker so even dumb grammar errors matter), then edit it out and post it. It all takes time. Seeing how ZOS ignored like almost everything people suggested it makes me wonder.. what is the point ? Just to waste our & ZOS time ? ?

At this point I am out of feedback. I am simply demotivated. It is pointless. I feel like I am yelling at someone behind a soundproof glass wall

MLGProPlayer

Mattock_Romulus wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Here is a good way to look at Altmer right now.

Why would anyone EVER pick Altmer (other than if they like the way they look)?

They provide the same DPS as Breton/Khajiit/Dunmer, but NOTHING above and beyond what those other races provide.

- Breton = Top magicka DPS + Top magicka sustain
- Khajiit = Top magicka DPS + Top stamina DPS
- Dunmer = Top magicka DPS + Top stamina DPS
- Altmer = Top magicka DPS...

Altmer still best DPS.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_F0pIdxUyEY

He never tested Breton with an optimized build... He ran them using sustain food for test consistency.

MLGProPlayer

Why does ZOS even bother making these threads?

WrathOfInnos

I’ve given a lot of feedback in other threads, but taking into account the most recent couple of patches, I’ll leave a short version here. IMO races will be pretty balanced with the following simple changes:

1. Move the off-resource return passive from Altmer to Dunmer
2. Give Altmer 100 Magicka Recovery
3. Reduce Orc max health bonus to 500
4. Increase Khajiit Crit Damage to 12%
5. Replace Bosmer roll dodge passive with something to increase PVE damage, such as constant Weapon Crit (maybe 5%)
6. Give Argonians a passive to increase PVE damage, such as Spell Crit (5%?). And possibly change Healing Done passive to Healing Received (since damage passive already increases healing done)
7. Give Bretons their constant 3960 Spell Resist, status effects are rare in PVE.

GrumpyDuckling

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Why does ZOS even bother making these threads?

^This.

Ozby

I was really hoping to see some positive changes this iteration, but wow nothing! this is so bad its beyond funny and I am really disappointed.
Altmer, Khajiit, Bosmer, Argonian and Imperial all suck imo.

MartiniDaniels

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Why does ZOS even bother making these threads?

So people may vent off their frustration opinion.

Gryph13

I still think the changes are not as catastrophic as these forums make them out to be. Over multiple parses and different tests, there does not seem to be a huge difference among the top dps races, and they seem even closer, so that no class is clearly the best. I think it is, in part, the lack of clear DPS differences that causes people to go off the deep end because they can no longer choose the race that clearly is the best in slot. I like this, and it normalizes the DPS differences a bit, without homogenizing the races.

I still think the more definitive limitation embedded within the game itself, is that DPS (either stam or mag) is too tied to a full 64 point stat dump into one stat to determine the outcome of your DPS that either limits build diversity or essentially homogenizes builds within classes.

Anyron

coppied from my original post here on pts forums

Argonians are not even close to be good. Recent nerfs meybe wasnt big, but buffing other racials means argonians are now good for nothing in every role this game has.

Their main problem and source of everything bad is Resourceful passive which looks good but in most cases it is useless.
Even if you count resourceful as good passive, there is only 1k max magicka which is less than on other races and 6% healing done which is better than altmers/ dunmers +250spell damage only when you have 4500+ spell damage unbuffed which is sad. Noone has that number.

So how we are now?

Healer ( worse than)

Altmer - because 2k magicka and 250 spell damage which is better on short fights and if you equip lich, that limitation is gone
Breton - their magicka sustain and extra 1k max magicka makes them superior in both healing and damage to all other Magicka races.
Dunmer - same thing like altmer, more max magicka and spell damage

Only who is weaker than argonians in healing are cats - but if you make crt healing build they are even better

Damage ( worse than)
Only stamina races here are worse magicka dps here, obviously i dont bother to write here which magicka races are better ( all of them).

Tanks (worse than)
Nords - their damage resistance and 500 extra in resource makes them better, unlimate generation is good too
Imperials- their new red Diamond passive makes them on par with argonians, but extra 1k health and 1k stamina makes them much better in tanking
Redguards - even when this is pure stamina race, their sustain is much better than all argonian resources from passive counted together. Cost of skills and over 9,5k stamina per minute is too much.

So why should anyone take argonians as their race when there are much better choices? Argonians are nowhere even 2nd or 3rd choice! THEY ARE BACK AT BOTTOM WHERE THEY WERE FIRST 3 YEARS!

So argonians survived countless cycles in Black Marsh as last race but they did it. ZOS finally killed this race.

actosh

Anyron wrote: »

coppied from my original post here on pts forums


Tanks (worse than)

Imperials- their new red Diamond passive makes them on par with argonians, but extra 1k health and 1k stamina makes them much better in tanking
[/b].

Why do ppl keep talking *** when they compare red diamond to ressourcefull?

Ressourcefull 4k of each ressource 45 sec cd. All it takes is using a pot.
Red Diamond: We take the 45 Secs an Argonian can use his pot. 333x9 resulting in 2997 of Each Ressource.

I think the 1k more health/stam for Imperial is justified here.

Funny thing is, to me it looks like they mostly listened to Imperial Racial feedback.

No matter how good Zos does "Balance" the Racials, there wil lalways be 1 or 2 Races that come out on top.

If u want to balance them they should just provide:

1: Statpoolincrease (hp,stam,mag) max value for all classes would be 3k differently spent.
Like Imperial 1.5k Health, 1.5k Stam. Argonian 1k each. Just some examples.

2. Reg: 258Reg on 1 ressource, or on more hybridfocused races 129reg stam/mag

3. Dmgbuff: 300 Wep or Spelldmg.

4. Some uselessflavor stuff.

For all those "BUT THE *** LORE Guys/Girls" there is a point in gaming where Balancing/gameplay expirience is more important then the lore. Dont gt me wrong, i love elder scrolls lore and the races in all the single player parts. For an mmo however sometimes sacrifices need to be made. Otherwise it will always happen what we see right now.

@ZOS_Gilliam You guys should continue with the "remove %stuff" and add hard values. Makes it easier.

Have a nice day.

Kalle_Demos

Gryph13 wrote: »

I still think the changes are not as catastrophic as these forums make them out to be. Over multiple parses and different tests, there does not seem to be a huge difference among the top dps races, and they seem even closer, so that no class is clearly the best. I think it is, in part, the lack of clear DPS differences that causes people to go off the deep end because they can no longer choose the race that clearly is the best in slot. I like this, and it normalizes the DPS differences a bit, without homogenizing the races.

I still think the more definitive limitation embedded within the game itself, is that DPS (either stam or mag) is too tied to a full 64 point stat dump into one stat to determine the outcome of your DPS that either limits build diversity or essentially homogenizes builds within classes.

There is an argument to be made that some races perform better than others which is one of the many goals not met. There are players for which DPS is not an important factor, specifically players that chose Bosmer for the unique style of play they provide. Completely gutting that entire game play style, erasing racial identity and assaulting Lore ALL contrary to stated goals in one fell sweeping NERF that ZOS said they would avoid are events for which players are rightfully aggrieved.

TheRealPotoroo

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Why does ZOS even bother making these threads?

To create the illusion of consultation.

martijnlv40

Mattock_Romulus wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Here is a good way to look at Altmer right now.

Why would anyone EVER pick Altmer (other than if they like the way they look)?

They provide the same DPS as Breton/Khajiit/Dunmer, but NOTHING above and beyond what those other races provide.

- Breton = Top magicka DPS + Top magicka sustain
- Khajiit = Top magicka DPS + Top stamina DPS
- Dunmer = Top magicka DPS + Top stamina DPS
- Altmer = Top magicka DPS...

Altmer still best DPS.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_F0pIdxUyEY

The build he used in this vid wasn't optimized for the Breton sustain, but normalized so that all races used everything the same. With Bretons you can go sets and foods than Altmer, which will make the gap not really there, and might even push Bretons a bit over Altmer (and Dunmer).

phantasmalD

actosh wrote: »

Anyron wrote: »

coppied from my original post here on pts forums


Tanks (worse than)

Imperials- their new red Diamond passive makes them on par with argonians, but extra 1k health and 1k stamina makes them much better in tanking
[/b].

Why do ppl keep talking *** when they compare red diamond to ressourcefull?

Ressourcefull 4k of each ressource 45 sec cd. All it takes is using a pot.
Red Diamond: We take the 45 Secs an Argonian can use his pot. 333x9 resulting in 2997 of Each Ressource.

You are ignoring the fact that Imperials have 3% cheaper skills.

It's hard to estimate how much resource it saves in action but if you were casting a 4k magicka skill every second you'd end up with -5400 magicka used.
If you were to cast a 1700 stamina cost skill every 2 seconds it would be -1145 stamina used.
So I'd say ~2k resource saved is a good estimation, which already makes up for the slightly weaker numbers.

technohic

I realize this is late with this being the final PTS but; knowing that this is what will likely go live, I logged into PTS with my Stamplar main, in 5 medium 2 heavy and respecced to every race I might possibly consider as a stamplar; and redgaurd also which I would NOT consider now. I am a PvP player so damage parses mean nothing to me. All I care about is if I can build something to work with. This is my feedback on what I see.

Nord, Orc, and Imperial are all interesting to me and a tough choice for what I would like to do, and even Dunmer if I want to be able to switch between magicka and stamina.

Nord adds some tankiness to my wearing medium armor, and while I am not super impressed with the ultimate generation, its a nice addition.

Orc provides more damage and speed along with reduced sprint cost which I rely on quite a bit and in general I feel the race is in a great spot.

Imperial has nice stats and cost reduction with some sustain on damage similar to what Redgaurd used to be for Stamplar so it is interesting for a templar in general now with inclusion of magicka.

Dunmer has some nice all around stats and are well rounded. The extra fire resist is even useful if you run Vamp and some classes seem to almost require it.

Redgaurd might be interesting for classes that rely on weapons, but it goes from being what once was the premiere stamplar race to not really good for stamplar at all with the passive only applying to weapon abilities. Its OK to have a race like this in balance perspective, but I find it an ethical issue as the identity there totally shifted to Imperial, and you now force people to switch who have invested in building for this. I am not one of them; but I am aware the popularity this race had with Stamplars.

Khajiit I feel like are just a little behind. Their extra recovery is too little to make up for getting lower stats than the other races and I see it as direct competition to Dunmer but max off stat is worth more to me than a small off stat recovery which I likely am not going to have enough to bother investing CP or otherwise into it. I thought I might keep my nightblade khajiit right up until this last check because I can gaurantee a crit with cloak, but I don't think I will as the stats on Dunmer look better and this is a class where I really want vamp.

Bosmer, well; the recovery makes good sustain to where you can build more into damage to almost be up there with the top ones on my list but the roll dodge passive is really odd, and stealth detec is very niche. The race in general is going to be very niche as to make use of it, you either are a roll dodge, hyper fast troll build, or you are what? A sentry role of some kind that you do not see a lot of people using? I can remember trying a way of the air and senche build a few years ago and its funny but totally spastic gameplay that is rough to go offensive on having to roll dodge every 6 seconds, and lag makes that even harder to actually then stay on a target. I really feel they could have had roll dodge and sprint cost reduction and maybe full time penetration and speed at a reduced rate. Something. Their close, but just weird and out of place.

I think thats all of them? At least what stuck out to me.

SilverPaws

Revert the khajiit crit passive... You are forcing every pvp khajiit player into playing khajiit nb ganker. That is against all you said you want to achieve with the passives change... So what the hell is this ?