PTS Update 21 - Feedback Thread for Racial Passive Changes

John_Falstaff

It's even conceptually a poor change, feels like a knee-jerk reaction to something. I wonder what was happening in their heads. Crit chance was something feline, and the new passive makes the race completely bland. It needs to be reverted.

Calibanana

After seeing a lot of talk on the Altmer passive, I feel inclined to agree, but from a distance. While it doesn't feel quite as useful as thr sustain provided by the Spell Recharge of 4.3, I think it can be made more interesting. I keep coming back to this quote from the 4.3 patch notes

"Previously, High Elves offered bonuses that weren’t distinct enough from other races, so we decided to repurpose their Recovery passive into one that captured the race’s belief in destiny or birth right (in this case, your class!) while still retaining the functionality of resource management."

Thr idea of "Destiny". I really like that approach to it! And the Altmer themselves seem to be very focused on damage. While I have made an admittedly misguided thread on potential change for Altmer and Bretons, I think the following potential change could be interesting to test:

1) Increases either Spell Critical or Weapon Critical by (x), based on which is higher between Magicka and Stamina

2) Increases either Spell Penetration or Weapon Penetration by (x), based on which is higher between Magicka and Stamina

In this way, the Altmer keep the notion of "Destiny," while still being hard hitters. Again I feel it should be said that I'm no game designer, and I'd love to hear thoughts on this suggestion!

Vertilvius

Thank you Zos for listening on the Imperial changes. These changes you have made have made the Imperial race at least playable. I would probably say they are def top 3 tanking race and are a mix of sustain and survivability. I still feel like something more unique could have been done with them but will not complain about what you have done. Although it would be nice to get a buff on the heal from red diamond bc lets be honest 333 heal is completely worthless lol especially in pvp. But like I stated way to go on listening to your players bc Imperials where really bad with the first proposed changes.

Wolfahm

I don't need to repeat the 30 reasons why it was a poor idea.. the Khajiit change is a joke that kills build diversity and the "racial flavor" ZoS claims to want. revert shadow to its nerfed state, revert Khajiit crit chance and stop having a mid life crisis every racial update.

# "sweeping changes"

DeathStalker

Is it possible to get an official response on why ESO is telling us to go to ****? Because in regards to the stupid Wood Elf and High Elf changes that's what it feels like. Are the changes now set in stone?

twing1_

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

zaria wrote: »

IlCanis_LupuslI wrote: »

Plz revert the khajiit changes back to 4.3.2
Crit damage may be nice for raids but are utterly useless on pvp builds who because of impenetrable don't spec into having high crit ratios.
@ZOS_Gilliam

Why no dev comment on such an radical change?

I agree this needs to be reverted, dps or not, another race-defining feature was replaced by something generic, anybody can have.
I anytime prefer almost guaranteed crits against less guaranteed but stronger crits.

It's actually harder to increase crit damage than crit chance. Crit chance, I would argue, is the characteristic anybody can have.

Sources of crit dmg:
CP precise strikes/elfborn
Nb or templar
Shadow mundus
Certain conditional 5 pc set bonuses
Very limited number of skills (aggressive war horn for major force, rearming trap/acceleration for minor force)

Sources of crit chance
CP perfect strike
Precise weapon traits
2-4 set pc bonuses
Certain 5 pc set bonuses
Thief mundus
Potions (major savagery)
Skills (major/minor savagery)

josiahva

Pevey wrote: »

Imperials still are underpowered and have no niche. There is no good reason to keep an imperial or roll a new one.

The 3% is too small to care, the argonian-lite resource return is too small to care and not controllable like it is for argonian. The resource pool advantage is not as high as it was for imperials. Imperials still are no good for anything.

I’d prefer the resource return back to a higher amount just for health, like it was. And cost reduction for all-rounder is ok as an idea, but 3% is laughable. Bretons get 7%. Yes, reduction for imperial is for “all the things” but no one cares about that, we use Magicka or stamina for dps, one or the other. That’s the way this game is designed.

I see...you never block...you never dodge roll, you never use ultimates, and obviously you never tank, all you do is use magicka and stamina abilities. I agree with the changes to Imperial myself...its far better than last week....and honestly, with a flat bonus of 2000 to magicka as well as stam and health I would be 100% happy with the race...but even so, this week's changes have made me decide to keep my main tank as Imperial, and to even change one of my hybrid builds to imperial as well.

TheRealPotoroo

DeathStalker wrote: »

Is it possible to get an official response on why ESO is telling us to go to ****? Because in regards to the stupid Wood Elf and High Elf changes that's what it feels like. Are the changes now set in stone?

When something gets to PTS ZOS tend to stick to tweaking. Substantive changes like admitting the Bosmer change is moronic and reverting it in toto are rare.

CP5

twing1_ wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

zaria wrote: »

IlCanis_LupuslI wrote: »

Plz revert the khajiit changes back to 4.3.2
Crit damage may be nice for raids but are utterly useless on pvp builds who because of impenetrable don't spec into having high crit ratios.
@ZOS_Gilliam

Why no dev comment on such an radical change?

I agree this needs to be reverted, dps or not, another race-defining feature was replaced by something generic, anybody can have.
I anytime prefer almost guaranteed crits against less guaranteed but stronger crits.

It's actually harder to increase crit damage than crit chance. Crit chance, I would argue, is the characteristic anybody can have.

Sources of crit dmg:
CP precise strikes/elfborn
Nb or templar
Shadow mundus
Certain conditional 5 pc set bonuses
Very limited number of skills (aggressive war horn for major force, rearming trap/acceleration for minor force)

Sources of crit chance
CP perfect strike
Precise weapon traits
2-4 set pc bonuses
Certain 5 pc set bonuses
Thief mundus
Potions (major savagery)
Skills (major/minor savagery)

Thing is, before this change people could use the khajiit crit rate passive to build around already having crit, meaning they could do things like off meta sets and still have reasonable stats to do well, this change forces them to go from being able to build around having crit, to building for crit because if you don't have enough this change is bad, and means as a race you need to run more into the meta than anyone else instead.

A few other things were made available because of crit chance as well. For example I decided to run a sorc tank when the change to surge's healing came around, and an 8% bonus crit chance on top of the easy to get 20% meant I could rely on surge procing at a decent enough rate for self healing, which could crit heal up to 7k. Now, with my crit chance cut down a third, I will crit less meaning surge will proc less meaning surge will crit heal less, but hey, when it does I get more healing, but I doubt that will make up for the massive loss in up time. Add into that the interesting kind of builds that could have been built around having 8% spell crit, or hey, even hybrid dps that gets both weapon and spell crit, that could almost be viable perhaps, but now like I said before, you need to build into crit chance heavily else this change is just detrimental.

twing1_

CP5 wrote: »

twing1_ wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

zaria wrote: »

IlCanis_LupuslI wrote: »

Plz revert the khajiit changes back to 4.3.2
Crit damage may be nice for raids but are utterly useless on pvp builds who because of impenetrable don't spec into having high crit ratios.
@ZOS_Gilliam

Why no dev comment on such an radical change?

I agree this needs to be reverted, dps or not, another race-defining feature was replaced by something generic, anybody can have.
I anytime prefer almost guaranteed crits against less guaranteed but stronger crits.

It's actually harder to increase crit damage than crit chance. Crit chance, I would argue, is the characteristic anybody can have.

Sources of crit dmg:
CP precise strikes/elfborn
Nb or templar
Shadow mundus
Certain conditional 5 pc set bonuses
Very limited number of skills (aggressive war horn for major force, rearming trap/acceleration for minor force)

Sources of crit chance
CP perfect strike
Precise weapon traits
2-4 set pc bonuses
Certain 5 pc set bonuses
Thief mundus
Potions (major savagery)
Skills (major/minor savagery)

Thing is, before this change people could use the khajiit crit rate passive to build around already having crit, meaning they could do things like off meta sets and still have reasonable stats to do well, this change forces them to go from being able to build around having crit, to building for crit because if you don't have enough this change is bad, and means as a race you need to run more into the meta than anyone else instead.

A few other things were made available because of crit chance as well. For example I decided to run a sorc tank when the change to surge's healing came around, and an 8% bonus crit chance on top of the easy to get 20% meant I could rely on surge procing at a decent enough rate for self healing, which could crit heal up to 7k. Now, with my crit chance cut down a third, I will crit less meaning surge will proc less meaning surge will crit heal less, but hey, when it does I get more healing, but I doubt that will make up for the massive loss in up time. Add into that the interesting kind of builds that could have been built around having 8% spell crit, or hey, even hybrid dps that gets both weapon and spell crit, that could almost be viable perhaps, but now like I said before, you need to build into crit chance heavily else this change is just detrimental.

You can still build around having more baseline crit damage (focusing cp points less on precise strikes and more on other sources of raw damage like thaumaturge and mighty, for example).

And yes while it is true that if you don't have enough crit chance, this change is a nerf. On nbs and templars (classes that already have a crit damage bonus) the breakpoint is around 75% weapon crit. On classes that don't already have this crit damage bonus (all others) the breakpoint is much lower (~58% with only 30 pts into precise strikes and minor force. Without minor force/precise strikes, the breakpoint gets even lower).

I will agree with you about the heavy armor thing. It does get harder to compensate for the severe lack of crit in that department. But I feel this is rather intended, as the dps loss for having less crit is the tradeoff for having more protection from the heavy armor's resistances. There are still ways to build around it, however.

For instance, on my argonian nb tank I slot berserking warrior for my jewelry/melee weapons. For a magicka build, I would suggest doing the same with mother's sorrow.

Additonally, both magicka and stamina builds benefit from this increased critical damage.

CP5

twing1_ wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

twing1_ wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

zaria wrote: »

IlCanis_LupuslI wrote: »

Plz revert the khajiit changes back to 4.3.2
Crit damage may be nice for raids but are utterly useless on pvp builds who because of impenetrable don't spec into having high crit ratios.
@ZOS_Gilliam

Why no dev comment on such an radical change?

I agree this needs to be reverted, dps or not, another race-defining feature was replaced by something generic, anybody can have.
I anytime prefer almost guaranteed crits against less guaranteed but stronger crits.

It's actually harder to increase crit damage than crit chance. Crit chance, I would argue, is the characteristic anybody can have.

Sources of crit dmg:
CP precise strikes/elfborn
Nb or templar
Shadow mundus
Certain conditional 5 pc set bonuses
Very limited number of skills (aggressive war horn for major force, rearming trap/acceleration for minor force)

Sources of crit chance
CP perfect strike
Precise weapon traits
2-4 set pc bonuses
Certain 5 pc set bonuses
Thief mundus
Potions (major savagery)
Skills (major/minor savagery)

Thing is, before this change people could use the khajiit crit rate passive to build around already having crit, meaning they could do things like off meta sets and still have reasonable stats to do well, this change forces them to go from being able to build around having crit, to building for crit because if you don't have enough this change is bad, and means as a race you need to run more into the meta than anyone else instead.

A few other things were made available because of crit chance as well. For example I decided to run a sorc tank when the change to surge's healing came around, and an 8% bonus crit chance on top of the easy to get 20% meant I could rely on surge procing at a decent enough rate for self healing, which could crit heal up to 7k. Now, with my crit chance cut down a third, I will crit less meaning surge will proc less meaning surge will crit heal less, but hey, when it does I get more healing, but I doubt that will make up for the massive loss in up time. Add into that the interesting kind of builds that could have been built around having 8% spell crit, or hey, even hybrid dps that gets both weapon and spell crit, that could almost be viable perhaps, but now like I said before, you need to build into crit chance heavily else this change is just detrimental.

You can still build around having more baseline crit damage (focusing cp points less on precise strikes and more on other sources of raw damage like thaumaturge and mighty, for example).

And yes while it is true that if you don't have enough crit chance, this change is a nerf. On nbs and templars (classes that already have a crit damage bonus) the breakpoint is around 75% weapon crit. On classes that don't already have this crit damage bonus (all others) the breakpoint is much lower (~58% with only 30 pts into precise strikes and minor force. Without minor force/precise strikes, the breakpoint gets even lower).

I will agree with you about the heavy armor thing. It does get harder to compensate for the severe lack of crit in that department. But I feel this is rather intended, as the dps loss for having less crit is the tradeoff for having more protection from the heavy armor's resistances. There are still ways to build around it, however.

For instance, on my argonian nb tank I slot berserking warrior for my jewelry/melee weapons. For a magicka build, I would suggest doing the same with mother's sorrow.

Additonally, both magicka and stamina builds benefit from this increased critical damage.

Problem with that is now people running khajiit have to re-gear to need crit rather than having it, which on the surface may not sound like a drastic change but really is. And running crit gear on a tank means giving up things tanks traditionally run, my old setup just needed surge and then I could crit enough based on what attacks I used, giving up alakosh or something similar to get that crit chance back isn't why I made that setup to begin with. And with a lower crit rate but higher crit damage the inconsistant damage/healing the race can do gets even worse since if you get lucky you'll do a lot better, and if not then a lot worse. If damage numbers are roughly the same before and after I don't see why they needed to do this change, but given the poor treatment of bosmer and altmer that probably is to be expected.

DeathStalker

TheRealPotoroo wrote: »

DeathStalker wrote: »

Is it possible to get an official response on why ESO is telling us to go to ****? Because in regards to the stupid Wood Elf and High Elf changes that's what it feels like. Are the changes now set in stone?

When something gets to PTS ZOS tend to stick to tweaking. Substantive changes like admitting the Bosmer change is moronic and reverting it in toto are rare.

I know but I was hoping against hope it would be different this time. They said the goal was to give us Multi-Racial options. Now when this all started we had 2 options for sneaking. Now we have 1. Now, I'm not a math expert but I am pretty sure the 2 options we had before are more than the 1 we have now.

Also, I certainly don't want to wait 500 years for these mythical sneaking changes. Because even if it happens it will most likely be like Jewelry Crafting...Completely useless.

twing1_

CP5 wrote: »

twing1_ wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

twing1_ wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

zaria wrote: »

IlCanis_LupuslI wrote: »

Plz revert the khajiit changes back to 4.3.2
Crit damage may be nice for raids but are utterly useless on pvp builds who because of impenetrable don't spec into having high crit ratios.
@ZOS_Gilliam

Why no dev comment on such an radical change?

I agree this needs to be reverted, dps or not, another race-defining feature was replaced by something generic, anybody can have.
I anytime prefer almost guaranteed crits against less guaranteed but stronger crits.

It's actually harder to increase crit damage than crit chance. Crit chance, I would argue, is the characteristic anybody can have.

Sources of crit dmg:
CP precise strikes/elfborn
Nb or templar
Shadow mundus
Certain conditional 5 pc set bonuses
Very limited number of skills (aggressive war horn for major force, rearming trap/acceleration for minor force)

Sources of crit chance
CP perfect strike
Precise weapon traits
2-4 set pc bonuses
Certain 5 pc set bonuses
Thief mundus
Potions (major savagery)
Skills (major/minor savagery)

Thing is, before this change people could use the khajiit crit rate passive to build around already having crit, meaning they could do things like off meta sets and still have reasonable stats to do well, this change forces them to go from being able to build around having crit, to building for crit because if you don't have enough this change is bad, and means as a race you need to run more into the meta than anyone else instead.

A few other things were made available because of crit chance as well. For example I decided to run a sorc tank when the change to surge's healing came around, and an 8% bonus crit chance on top of the easy to get 20% meant I could rely on surge procing at a decent enough rate for self healing, which could crit heal up to 7k. Now, with my crit chance cut down a third, I will crit less meaning surge will proc less meaning surge will crit heal less, but hey, when it does I get more healing, but I doubt that will make up for the massive loss in up time. Add into that the interesting kind of builds that could have been built around having 8% spell crit, or hey, even hybrid dps that gets both weapon and spell crit, that could almost be viable perhaps, but now like I said before, you need to build into crit chance heavily else this change is just detrimental.

You can still build around having more baseline crit damage (focusing cp points less on precise strikes and more on other sources of raw damage like thaumaturge and mighty, for example).

And yes while it is true that if you don't have enough crit chance, this change is a nerf. On nbs and templars (classes that already have a crit damage bonus) the breakpoint is around 75% weapon crit. On classes that don't already have this crit damage bonus (all others) the breakpoint is much lower (~58% with only 30 pts into precise strikes and minor force. Without minor force/precise strikes, the breakpoint gets even lower).

I will agree with you about the heavy armor thing. It does get harder to compensate for the severe lack of crit in that department. But I feel this is rather intended, as the dps loss for having less crit is the tradeoff for having more protection from the heavy armor's resistances. There are still ways to build around it, however.

For instance, on my argonian nb tank I slot berserking warrior for my jewelry/melee weapons. For a magicka build, I would suggest doing the same with mother's sorrow.

Additonally, both magicka and stamina builds benefit from this increased critical damage.

Problem with that is now people running khajiit have to re-gear to need crit rather than having it, which on the surface may not sound like a drastic change but really is. And running crit gear on a tank means giving up things tanks traditionally run, my old setup just needed surge and then I could crit enough based on what attacks I used, giving up alakosh or something similar to get that crit chance back isn't why I made that setup to begin with. And with a lower crit rate but higher crit damage the inconsistant damage/healing the race can do gets even worse since if you get lucky you'll do a lot better, and if not then a lot worse. If damage numbers are roughly the same before and after I don't see why they needed to do this change, but given the poor treatment of bosmer and altmer that probably is to be expected.

I will agree with you, for your admittedly very niche build it is a nerf.

But the point of the change was that Khajit were over performing in magicka dd roles and are now a bit more balanced (as they, generally speaking, are being nerfed with this change on account of their lower crit chance in comparison to stamina builds) while the stamina dps side of things remains more or less unchanged, keeping them in a competitive position on both sides of the coin.

Minno

DeathStalker wrote: »

Is it possible to get an official response on why ESO is telling us to go to ****? Because in regards to the stupid Wood Elf and High Elf changes that's what it feels like. Are the changes now set in stone?

well wood elf is fine; its just not the wood elf you think. In oblivion wood elfs have boosts to agility, speed, light armor, marksman, acrobatics, sneak, alteration magic, and alchemy. They also have the ability to command animals and have disease resistance. How does this translate to ESO?:
- light armor has no direct translation. But they use the dodge roll passive to push you towards medium armor which counts as light armor.
- agility was a trait used to boost dmg to bows and was used to govern marksman, security and sneak. no direct translation except the max stam you get helps add to dmg and bosmer get that extra experience when leveling up bow.
- speed trait boosted Acrobatics, Athletics, and Light Armor. Iin ESO they were given 10% movement speed after dodge roll (and we already talked about the medium armor synergy that replaces light armor).
- marksman let you have interesting effects with bows at higher levels. Basically let you paralys and immobilze enemies. But since these are too strong for passive effects, penetration makes the most sense for ESO.
- acrobatics was unique in that you could dodge while jumping and got less fatique. This is why the push for dodge roll was important for ZOS to place on bosmer, and probably why they could give the race stamina regen. Also fall damage reduced is straight out of acrobactics!
- sneak - in oblivion you could ignore armor and get more dmg in sneak. But they got rid of it for ESO this PTS for some boring stealth detect. BUT you get penetration in the dodge roll and sneak dmg boost is available to all builds so hard to give to a race.
- alteration just basically gave you shields and reduce encumbrance. Can't give a race a passive shield
- alchemy, already present in the game. Potentially use to offset weakness in bosmer.
- they also had disease resistance, but now have poison resistance. I think this should be reversed.

BUT they also were weak in strength, willpower, and endurance:
- strength helped you deal dmg in melee with blunt, one hand blade and hand to hand. obviously not in bosmer ESO.
- willpower governed mag regen. obviously also not there
- endurance governed health levels. So again not in the current PTS levels.

This means, bosmer needs disease resistance back, stealth radius back, and maybe a boost to alchemy use. But that would be the furthest I would go because what everyone is asking for is not a bosmer but another race. And at that point, just play another race lol.

CP5

twing1_ wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

twing1_ wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

twing1_ wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

zaria wrote: »

IlCanis_LupuslI wrote: »

Plz revert the khajiit changes back to 4.3.2
Crit damage may be nice for raids but are utterly useless on pvp builds who because of impenetrable don't spec into having high crit ratios.
@ZOS_Gilliam

Why no dev comment on such an radical change?

I agree this needs to be reverted, dps or not, another race-defining feature was replaced by something generic, anybody can have.
I anytime prefer almost guaranteed crits against less guaranteed but stronger crits.

It's actually harder to increase crit damage than crit chance. Crit chance, I would argue, is the characteristic anybody can have.

Sources of crit dmg:
CP precise strikes/elfborn
Nb or templar
Shadow mundus
Certain conditional 5 pc set bonuses
Very limited number of skills (aggressive war horn for major force, rearming trap/acceleration for minor force)

Sources of crit chance
CP perfect strike
Precise weapon traits
2-4 set pc bonuses
Certain 5 pc set bonuses
Thief mundus
Potions (major savagery)
Skills (major/minor savagery)

Thing is, before this change people could use the khajiit crit rate passive to build around already having crit, meaning they could do things like off meta sets and still have reasonable stats to do well, this change forces them to go from being able to build around having crit, to building for crit because if you don't have enough this change is bad, and means as a race you need to run more into the meta than anyone else instead.

A few other things were made available because of crit chance as well. For example I decided to run a sorc tank when the change to surge's healing came around, and an 8% bonus crit chance on top of the easy to get 20% meant I could rely on surge procing at a decent enough rate for self healing, which could crit heal up to 7k. Now, with my crit chance cut down a third, I will crit less meaning surge will proc less meaning surge will crit heal less, but hey, when it does I get more healing, but I doubt that will make up for the massive loss in up time. Add into that the interesting kind of builds that could have been built around having 8% spell crit, or hey, even hybrid dps that gets both weapon and spell crit, that could almost be viable perhaps, but now like I said before, you need to build into crit chance heavily else this change is just detrimental.

You can still build around having more baseline crit damage (focusing cp points less on precise strikes and more on other sources of raw damage like thaumaturge and mighty, for example).

And yes while it is true that if you don't have enough crit chance, this change is a nerf. On nbs and templars (classes that already have a crit damage bonus) the breakpoint is around 75% weapon crit. On classes that don't already have this crit damage bonus (all others) the breakpoint is much lower (~58% with only 30 pts into precise strikes and minor force. Without minor force/precise strikes, the breakpoint gets even lower).

I will agree with you about the heavy armor thing. It does get harder to compensate for the severe lack of crit in that department. But I feel this is rather intended, as the dps loss for having less crit is the tradeoff for having more protection from the heavy armor's resistances. There are still ways to build around it, however.

For instance, on my argonian nb tank I slot berserking warrior for my jewelry/melee weapons. For a magicka build, I would suggest doing the same with mother's sorrow.

Additonally, both magicka and stamina builds benefit from this increased critical damage.

Problem with that is now people running khajiit have to re-gear to need crit rather than having it, which on the surface may not sound like a drastic change but really is. And running crit gear on a tank means giving up things tanks traditionally run, my old setup just needed surge and then I could crit enough based on what attacks I used, giving up alakosh or something similar to get that crit chance back isn't why I made that setup to begin with. And with a lower crit rate but higher crit damage the inconsistant damage/healing the race can do gets even worse since if you get lucky you'll do a lot better, and if not then a lot worse. If damage numbers are roughly the same before and after I don't see why they needed to do this change, but given the poor treatment of bosmer and altmer that probably is to be expected.

I will agree with you, for your admittedly very niche build it is a nerf.

But the point of the change was that Khajit were over performing in magicka dd roles and are now a bit more balanced (as they, generally speaking, are being nerfed with this change on account of their lower crit chance in comparison to stamina builds) while the stamina dps side of things remains more or less unchanged, keeping them in a competitive position on both sides of the coin.

I just would have preferred the crit rate lowered and perhaps the shadow stone reeled in a bit if that's what they were worried about, this change does a lot of things to the side that just feel off in so many ways.

Cundu_Ertur

Minno wrote: »

DeathStalker wrote: »

Is it possible to get an official response on why ESO is telling us to go to ****? Because in regards to the stupid Wood Elf and High Elf changes that's what it feels like. Are the changes now set in stone?

well wood elf is fine; its just not the wood elf you think. In oblivion … [snip for length, I played Oblivion as a Bosmer, along with Morrowind (as a Bosmer) and Skyrim (as a Bosmer)]...
This means, bosmer needs disease resistance back, stealth radius back, and maybe a boost to alchemy use. But that would be the furthest I would go because what everyone is asking for is not a bosmer but another race. And at that point, just play another race lol.

About 95% of the complaints about Bosmer are about the loss of stealth. Bosmer have lore reasons for stealth, they had bonuses to stealth in Morrowind, Oblivion, and Skyrim (the highest of all races in the first two). No stealth = not a Bosmer. So, you acknowledge this at the end of your post, but start off with 'wood elf is fine.' No, wood elf is NOT fine. They lose their stealth passive to get PVP oriented garbage and a clunky, expensive roll-dodge mishmash in return. As for the disease resistance, I agree, but the Argonians should keep some disease resistance and get the poison resistance + immunity. Argonians have always had a resistance to both poison and disease, Bosmer generally only had resistance to non-magical disease.

Minno

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

DeathStalker wrote: »

Is it possible to get an official response on why ESO is telling us to go to ****? Because in regards to the stupid Wood Elf and High Elf changes that's what it feels like. Are the changes now set in stone?

well wood elf is fine; its just not the wood elf you think. In oblivion … [snip for length, I played Oblivion as a Bosmer, along with Morrowind (as a Bosmer) and Skyrim (as a Bosmer)]...
This means, bosmer needs disease resistance back, stealth radius back, and maybe a boost to alchemy use. But that would be the furthest I would go because what everyone is asking for is not a bosmer but another race. And at that point, just play another race lol.

About 95% of the complaints about Bosmer are about the loss of stealth. Bosmer have lore reasons for stealth, they had bonuses to stealth in Morrowind, Oblivion, and Skyrim (the highest of all races in the first two). No stealth = not a Bosmer. So, you acknowledge this at the end of your post, but start off with 'wood elf is fine.' No, wood elf is NOT fine. They lose their stealth passive to get PVP oriented garbage and a clunky, expensive roll-dodge mishmash in return. As for the disease resistance, I agree, but the Argonians should keep some disease resistance and get the poison resistance + immunity. Argonians have always had a resistance to both poison and disease, Bosmer generally only had resistance to non-magical disease.

They are fine, just need small tweak, but here's your choice:
- stealth back
- or get rid of the stealth detection and get something niche but unique.

my idea; % increase on duration to alchemy items over the stealth detect/increase.

Kolzki

I’m not sure that I get the shadow stone arguments for the khajiit change.

For stamina the lover is mandatory unless wearing tfs, which is not a meta trial setup (albeit better than relequen for 4 person content).

For magicka the crit chance generally wasn’t high enough for the shadow to be better than the thief.

Cundu_Ertur

When I say, "No stealth = not a bosmer," how do you reckon I'd respond? Anyways, replacing the stealth with a copy/paste of Medicinal Use isn't much of an offsetting bonus.

TheRealPotoroo

Minno wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

DeathStalker wrote: »

Is it possible to get an official response on why ESO is telling us to go to ****? Because in regards to the stupid Wood Elf and High Elf changes that's what it feels like. Are the changes now set in stone?

well wood elf is fine; its just not the wood elf you think. In oblivion … [snip for length, I played Oblivion as a Bosmer, along with Morrowind (as a Bosmer) and Skyrim (as a Bosmer)]...
This means, bosmer needs disease resistance back, stealth radius back, and maybe a boost to alchemy use. But that would be the furthest I would go because what everyone is asking for is not a bosmer but another race. And at that point, just play another race lol.

About 95% of the complaints about Bosmer are about the loss of stealth. Bosmer have lore reasons for stealth, they had bonuses to stealth in Morrowind, Oblivion, and Skyrim (the highest of all races in the first two). No stealth = not a Bosmer. So, you acknowledge this at the end of your post, but start off with 'wood elf is fine.' No, wood elf is NOT fine. They lose their stealth passive to get PVP oriented garbage and a clunky, expensive roll-dodge mishmash in return. As for the disease resistance, I agree, but the Argonians should keep some disease resistance and get the poison resistance + immunity. Argonians have always had a resistance to both poison and disease, Bosmer generally only had resistance to non-magical disease.

They are fine, just need small tweak, but here's your choice:
- stealth back
- or get rid of the stealth detection and get something niche but unique.

my idea; % increase on duration to alchemy items over the stealth detect/increase.

Bosmers are not fine. They've had something we built our characters on ripped away and replaced with useless garbage.

Minno

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

When I say, "No stealth = not a bosmer," how do you reckon I'd respond? Anyways, replacing the stealth with a copy/paste of Medicinal Use isn't much of an offsetting bonus.

well you aren't offering much discussion, especially considering that stealth is available to all as well and the old passive a copy-pasta of a set.

BlueRaven

Minno wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

When I say, "No stealth = not a bosmer," how do you reckon I'd respond? Anyways, replacing the stealth with a copy/paste of Medicinal Use isn't much of an offsetting bonus.

well you aren't offering much discussion, especially considering that stealth is available to all as well and the old passive a copy-pasta of a set.

Stealth is available to all? No kidding! You know what is also available to all? Magicka and stamina regen and stats. So why does ANY race need to have any boost to regen or max magicka and stamina, as they are available to all?

Also available to all; sprinting, pickpocketing, crafting and swimming! In fact there is NOTHING in this game that any race cannot already do. So is your argument that we should all have zero passives?

The point is that Bosmers should be BETTER at sneaking than other races. Not THE SAME as other races.

Minno

BlueRaven wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

When I say, "No stealth = not a bosmer," how do you reckon I'd respond? Anyways, replacing the stealth with a copy/paste of Medicinal Use isn't much of an offsetting bonus.

well you aren't offering much discussion, especially considering that stealth is available to all as well and the old passive a copy-pasta of a set.

Stealth is available to all? No kidding! You know what is also available to all? Magicka and stamina regen and stats. So why does ANY race need to have any boost to regen or max magicka and stamina, as they are available to all?

Also available to all; sprinting, pickpocketing, crafting and swimming! In fact there is NOTHING in this game that any race cannot already do. So is your argument that we should all have zero passives?

The point is that Bosmers should be BETTER at sneaking than other races. Not THE SAME as other races.

enjoy the boring stealth then lol. Had the opportunity to discuss adding something interesting here.

Minno

also you all forgot about this tidbit from the rep meeting:
"Bosmer: ZOS has heard concerns about the stackable powerful movement speed. Bosmers will still get a speed boost off dodge, it just wont be as high. Bosmers will get some short damage bonus as compensation. Note: Reps specifically asked about the community’s concern that bosmers are trading stealth for different buffs. We were told that ZOS saw these concerns and would work on creating more options/systems for stealth gameplay outside of race. With these additions, stealth gameplay will open up to more players, and also allow bosmers to have the nice combat buff will still having avenues to be as stealthy as before"

Bosmer probably won't see stealth returned. Might as well get something better added .

Holycannoli

sionIV wrote: »

Imperial changes in 4.3.3 are a step in the right direction.

Pevey wrote: »

Imperials still are underpowered and have no niche. There is no good reason to keep an imperial or roll a new one.

The 3% is too small to care, the argonian-lite resource return is too small to care and not controllable like it is for argonian. The resource pool advantage is not as high as it was for imperials. Imperials still are no good for anything.

I’d prefer the resource return back to a higher amount just for health, like it was. And cost reduction for all-rounder is ok as an idea, but 3% is laughable. Bretons get 7%. Yes, reduction for imperial is for “all the things” but no one cares about that, we use Magicka or stamina for dps, one or the other. That’s the way this game is designed.

I'm noticing the same thing. 3% is a step in the right direction but is just too small, especially when paired with the too-small Red Diamond. One or the other has to be increased.

Even for a skill that costs a whopping 3,000 to use it's only a savings of 90. I do know it saves on everything but it's not really felt in combat.

It's similar to the +1% gold perk. You never feel it because the increases are either too tiny or more likely never occur (how does the game add +1% to any amount under 100?)

I'm not complaining though. They are on the correct path and now just need to tweak things a bit. I'm thinking a 5% reduction or 500 magicka/health/stamina per 5 seconds is all that's needed now.

Gnortranermara

High Elf is under budget.

Off-stat regen partially hybridizes High Elf, but we still have a non-hybrid stat budget. We should've gotten a passive stat budget increase with the regen nerf. Remember what Gil said about hybrids?

"We decided to find a healthy standard for total racial power provided and used that budget (roughly 6.5 set bonuses) for the power that each passive would grant. We used the previous version of Redguard and Altmer as our target goal. Note that some of our hybrid races will be a slightly higher value, since their power is divided. Most of the races received buffs to reach this figure." -@ZOS_Gilliam

If you insist on hybridizing our race against our will, at least give us the same benefits as other hybrids: increase the budget and add extra utility. I suggest Disease Resistance but there are a lot of other good suggestions our there like increased chance to apply status effects.

For comparison:
Altmer has 2k Magicka and 256 SD, the equivalent of only ~4 set piece bonuses. The original Magicka sustain passive was barely worth ~1.2 set bonuses in testing, and that was when it was actually relevant. The defensive bonus is almost entirely Templar-specific, yet another build-limiting niche that shouldn't be part of racial passives. Altmer was already under-budget compared to other races, and this nerf made it worse.

Compare to Breton, who still hypocritically gets damage and sustain bonuses, with a budget of ~2 damage bonuses, 1 defensive bonus, and ~3+ sustain bonuses (one of which scales up strongly for high-cost skills). Compare to Dark Elf, who gets almost the same ~3.9 damage bonuses Altmer has, plus almost 2k stam and a defensive bonus comparable to what I'm asking for. Compare to Orc, 2k main stat, 256 WD, and a ton of other legitimately useful passives, including main stat and off-stat recovery that outperforms Spell Recharge.

twing1_

SidewalkChalk5 wrote: »

High Elf is under budget.

Off-stat regen partially hybridizes High Elf, but we still have a non-hybrid stat budget. We should've gotten a passive stat budget increase with the regen nerf. Remember what Gil said about hybrids?

"We decided to find a healthy standard for total racial power provided and used that budget (roughly 6.5 set bonuses) for the power that each passive would grant. We used the previous version of Redguard and Altmer as our target goal. Note that some of our hybrid races will be a slightly higher value, since their power is divided. Most of the races received buffs to reach this figure." -@ZOS_Gilliam

If you insist on hybridizing our race against our will, at least give us the same benefits as other hybrids: increase the budget and add extra utility. I suggest Disease Resistance but there are a lot of other good suggestions our there like increased chance to apply status effects.

I think they should reverse the altmer hybridization. It makes them far too similar to the dunmer who they were already very similar to even without the off stat sustain. But now, they are virtual clones of one another.

They both have:
-around 2000 magicka (the difference of 125 magicka between these two is very negligible)
-258 spell damage
-off-stat utility (1875 max Stam for dunmer, Stam sustain for altmer)

The only thing dividing these two races are their defensive bonuses. 5% damage reduction while casting should not be a race's defining characteristic.

To fix this, dunmer should be given the off-stat sustain to support their hybrid nature. In return, altmer could receive a slight bonus to magicka use that DOES NOT increase their raw damage or sustain, as they are already in a good spot in the magicka dps hierarchy. Something like increased chance to apply status effects would suffice.

Detailed analysis: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/457979/lack-of-racial-identity-between-altmer-and-dunmer#latest

@ZOS_Gilliam

Eiron77

Minno wrote: »

also you all forgot about this tidbit from the rep meeting:
"Bosmer: ZOS has heard concerns about the stackable powerful movement speed. Bosmers will still get a speed boost off dodge, it just wont be as high. Bosmers will get some short damage bonus as compensation. Note: Reps specifically asked about the community’s concern that bosmers are trading stealth for different buffs. We were told that ZOS saw these concerns and would work on creating more options/systems for stealth gameplay outside of race. With these additions, stealth gameplay will open up to more players, and also allow bosmers to have the nice combat buff will still having avenues to be as stealthy as before"

Bosmer probably won't see stealth returned. Might as well get something better added .

No. We did not forget, why do you think we're pissed off?

BlueRaven

Minno wrote: »

also you all forgot about this tidbit from the rep meeting:
"Bosmer: ZOS has heard concerns about the stackable powerful movement speed. Bosmers will still get a speed boost off dodge, it just wont be as high. Bosmers will get some short damage bonus as compensation. Note: Reps specifically asked about the community’s concern that bosmers are trading stealth for different buffs. We were told that ZOS saw these concerns and would work on creating more options/systems for stealth gameplay outside of race. With these additions, stealth gameplay will open up to more players, and also allow bosmers to have the nice combat buff will still having avenues to be as stealthy as before"

Bosmer probably won't see stealth returned. Might as well get something better added .

Did you just discover that quote? We have been asking for clarification about it since they posted it. They are taking away stealth and saying that maybe, someday, possibly there can be a way to get some stealth back. Fantastic. Meanwhile I rolled a bosmer to be stealthy right now, not sometime in the future.

This "We'll do it later" attitude is what kids say to get out homework, it's not a way to balance races.
"Hey altmer, your magikcka dps is not up to par now, but don't worry in the future ALL races will be able to fling around spells equally. We are working on a system that will be implemented at sometime in the future." This would not cut it on these forums. So don't try to pass if off as a solution here.

If they want to remove stealth and implement a new system for it, fine. But don't remove stealth and then say the fix is "TBD". If they have a plan then let's see it.

•••

You want to see a suggestion? Well here's one. How about we remove the stealth detection and role which does not fit the lore. (Do players ever see these passives in later games? They do not.) And implement say a 3m stealth buff, and some sort of damage bonus when attacking from stealth. There, that's a solution.

BlueRaven

Minno wrote: »

also you all forgot about this tidbit from the rep meeting:
"Bosmer: ZOS has heard concerns about the stackable powerful movement speed. Bosmers will still get a speed boost off dodge, it just wont be as high. Bosmers will get some short damage bonus as compensation. Note: Reps specifically asked about the community’s concern that bosmers are trading stealth for different buffs. We were told that ZOS saw these concerns and would work on creating more options/systems for stealth gameplay outside of race. With these additions, stealth gameplay will open up to more players, and also allow bosmers to have the nice combat buff will still having avenues to be as stealthy as before"

Bosmer probably won't see stealth returned. Might as well get something better added .

Yes. I will enjoy stealth while I can, it's why I rolled a bosmer. It was in the race description at the time. I was in the beta, I knew what the races did, and I knew what I wanted from a race.