Raid/Buffed DPS Test [Each Class/Each DD Race] PTS 4.3.3

susmitds

Greetings,

Aim

To find DD race's efficiency in a raid buffed DPS test for every class (6M Skeleton)

Gear, Food, CP, Mundus

Magicka Gear - Spell Strategist, Mother's Sorrow, Valkyn Skoria all divines, 2 Bloodthirsty + 1 Infused, Infused Fire Staff, Infused vMA Fire Staff
Stamina Gear - Relenquen, Advancing Yokeda, Velidreth all divines, 2 Bloodthirsty + 1 Infused, Nirn+Precise DW, Infused vMA Bow
Armor + Jewelry Enchants - All Stamina/Magicka(Armor), Weapon/Spell Damage(Jewelry)
Magicka Weapon Enchants - Flame+Infused Absorb Magicka(all except Breton)/Flame+Infused Berserker(Breton)
Stamina Weapon Enchants - Poison&Disease+Infused Absorb Stamina(all except Redguard, Bosmer, Imperial)/Poison&Disease+Infused Berserker(Redguard, Bosmer, Imperial)
Mundus - Lover for Stamina tests. Shadow for Magicka tests as it was coming out strongly as BiS for all races except Khajiit, for which I also tested Thief.
CP - We used Alcast's website ones to save time.
Spammable - Magicka - Elemental Weapon for all except DK. Stamina - Class Spammable wherever possible, otherwise Crushing Weapon(most races) or Shrouded Daggers(Redguard)
Food - Blue Food.

Procedure

Raid-Buffed DPS Test with 4 Warhorns - All Minor Class specific buffs + Minor Berserk provided + Orbs/Shards. Elemental Drain is provided. 1st Warhorn is given at the start of the test. 2nd Warhorn is given when the skeleton is down to 75%. 3rd Warhorn is given when the skeleton is down to 50%. 4th Warhorn is given when the skeleton is down to 25%. This results in 38 secs of Major Force uptime, spread across 4 phases. 20 Samples are Taken for ever class per race.

Results

Magicka DPS Tests

Magicka Dragonknight



Magicka Nightblade



Magicka Sorcerer



Magicka Templar



Magicka Warden


Note - We did not have any Magicka Warden main in our guild who was confident about parsing. Hence, the Magicka Warden test can be somewhat unreliable.

Stamina DPS Tests

Stamina Dragonknight



Stamina Nightblade



Stamina Sorcerer



Stamina Templar



Stamina Warden



All this was possible due to the assistance of Hell Runners Guild.

susmitds

Feedback/Observations

Redguard vs Bosmer Sustain

These tests do not do justice to Bosmer sustain compared to Redguard sustain. We specifically tested sustain by using a potion and then draining all stamina on Redguard and Bosmer StamNB, then waiting 8 secs, followed by solo parsing a 3M Skeleton without Potions three times. Bosmer came out 17.5% faster on average. From this, we can deduce that in fights with breaks, Bosmer sustain is around 17.5% better than Redguard (not really an issue as both their sustain is very good)

Imperial

These changes are feeling great for Imperial. Their sustain is just slightly find that Bosmer and Redguard and significantly better than that of Khajiit. The parses show how much their DPS improved. Though I specifically did not test this, I think based on the rest that using Lava Foot and Health enchants to get to 17K HP, Imperials will beat Redguard, Bosmer and Khajiit as DPS. They should be at least Argonian level on Magicka DPS too.

The ultimate cost reduction, great sustain and huge resources would put them on the level of Nord easily for tanking, if not higher.

The Khajiit Dilemma

Starting on something positive, I felt virtually no difference in Solo Buffed DPS for Khajiit. I did not test all races in solo buffed DPS though. It was somewhat different for raid-buffed DPS scenario, where Khajiit is performing not to the point of what other DD races are capable of. To explain this, I will elaborate a bit on what exactly is happening.

The more Critical Hit Damage Modifier you have, it slowly but steadily get more and more redundant, decreasing overall gain from it. To use it efficiently, we will need higher Critical Hit Chances as raw damage from Resources+Weapon/Spell Damage.

Here, where the primary issue lies. Between base CHD, class passives, CP and Minor Force, we already have very high CHD. Khajiit 0.1 CHD is already somewhat reduntant if you have below 75.2% critical hit chance (Thanks for correcting me, guys). StamNB Critical Hit Chance is around 78% and this is lesser for classes like Templar.

Adding to this is the fact that Shadow being a pure Damage Mundus is the new BiS Magicka Mundus but Khajiit is not gaining the required DPS gain from it compared to Thief due to redundancy.

Now, in raids, a huge part of the Damage Done is dealt during the Major Force uptime. This is when the situation goes south. Addition of 0.15 CHD gives less benefit to Khajiit compared to other races, a race, which till now somewhat relied on additional bonus from Major Force to compete with other races, which is a complete 180 turn. Compounding to this fact is that Khajiit has all lowest primary damage resources of all races, meaning they get the least damage from 10% extra resources part.

This also increases the Khajiit's reliance on RNG more as non-crits don't affect Khajiit DPS at all and they happen lesser now.

A few days ago, I saw a post on Dunmer getting higher critical hit damage compared to Khajiit based on rumors. @LiquidPony did a great job at breaking it down.

However, LiquidPony used an edge case of scenario of testing it with builds with very high Weapon Damage 6-9K weapon damage as that point adding Weapon Damage is reduntant and critical hit chance of those builds tend to be quite low in the first place. This is not relevant for the entire picture so I used a more PvP standard setup to test it.

Using Shacklebreaker(Prismatic on big pieces/Stamina on small pieces)+Spriggan+Velidreth/Kraagh as base, I used Snipe as the skill to test damage by. I raised CHD by 0.01 using CP after every test to find the point where Khajiit and Dunmer deals equal critical damage. I used Lover Mundus to stop Mundus from affecting the test intially. The point came at 1.97 non-racial CHD for my particular build.

Khajiit (2.07 CHD) - 41684 Snipe Crit
Dunmer (1.97 CHD) - 41677 Snipe Crit

At this point, I replaced Lover with Shadow.

Shadow Khajiit (2.20 CHD) - 42193 Snipe Crit
Shadow Dunmer (2.10 CHD) - 42311 Snipe Crit

As we see, critical damage beyond the sweet point is coming out higher for Dunmer. Now to be fair, having this high critical damage is another edge case.

But one thing is true that Dunmer+Shadow (254 Weapon Damage+0.13 CHD) will always deal more damage(crit and non crit) compared Khajiit+Warrior(232 Weapon Damage+0.10 CHD).

For PvP situations, the critical change will be buff to builds that can crit on will(namely gankers) and any build that has significant critical hit chance. However on the opposite end of the spectrum, Khajiit builds that depended on the Khajiit Passive to maintain a significant Critical Hit Chance such as Heavy Armor builds (especially build that don't use Fury/Veiled Heritance/Ravager/Seventh Levion) will suffer significantly.

I believe that splitting the passive in Half(5/5 or 4/6 or even 4/5) in between Critical Hit Chance and Critical Hit Damage&Healing will be a fair move, then potential gain from addition CHD modifiers like Shadow, Major Force due to CHC will be countered by redundancy from Critical Hit Damage, balancing it out. Otherwise, there is a fair chance that Khajiit will lag behind significantly once the Crit Meta passes.

Tasear

Thanks for insights

KhajiitFelix

Nice

Wolfkeks

Wow awesome work!

MEBengalsFan2001

First, thank you for your work here.

Second, all classes that uses the optimal race are within 5% of each other for DPS.

Third, that same 5% rule applies for races within a specific build for each class.

This clearly illustrates that the update has provide a nice balance between races and classes.

As someone still getting into the game it is good to see that this is where the game is.

Its not perfect but the devs deserve props for making thing fairly balanced over all.

Some minor tweaking here and there will definitely improve things but it should be minor tweaking.

nsmurfer

So Dunmer DOES beats Khajiit in everything. I WAS RIGHT ALL ALONG.

MagDK Difference - 658
MagNB Difference - 717
MagSorc Difference - 832
MagPlar Difference - 709
MagDen Difference - 843
StamDK Difference - 692
StamNB Difference - 836
StamSorc Difference - 973
StamPlar Difference - 808
StamDen Difference - 800

also now, we have another semi-Hybrid race, i.e. Imperial.

susmitds wrote: »

Imperial
Their sustain is just slightly find that Bosmer and Redguard and significantly better than that of Khajiit.

susmitds wrote: »

using Lava Foot and Health enchants to get to 17K HP, Imperials will beat Redguard, Bosmer and Khajiit as DPS

They have very close DPS to Khajiit, with higher total resources, higher sustain, ultimate cost reduction. Why anyone use Khajiit now, outside of PvP gankers?

@Masel @Joy_Division @Checkmath

FrancisCrawford

What kind of mag sorcerer build did you use? In particular, roughly what fraction of total damage was pet?

idk

Thx to you and those who helped you. It is good to get straight information from testing so we can better understand these changes.

Lyserus

I'm no pro and I can't even hope to get to those numbers, but good to see that it seems the racials are finally in a good enough balance now

Can't wait for new racials!

susmitds

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

What kind of mag sorcerer build did you use? In particular, roughly what fraction of total damage was pet?

Ah, sorry man. We didn't get to test PetSorc. Testing this extensive takes a lot of time and documenting it takes a fair amount too. I was on vacation but that changes coming Monday so I don't think I will be getting around to do more testing as of now.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

Props for the hardwork. I still think racial changes should be free for a week after patch, but I think I a going to stop beating that particular horse. haha.

I will say that I am pretty satisfied where things ended up in terms of balance if this were to go live as is.

Also, LOL that you couldnt find a confident magden. Wonder why?

End of the day, the best race for each class is only giving around 3% damage at most it seems. In other words, it really doesnt matter for most people. It actually makes some of the races with passives that arent oriented around damage a lot more appealing assuming you dont spend all your time in a raid.

Edit: Oh, and Dunmer is still the master race it seems (never worse than 3rd). My inner Morrowind fanboy believes this is how it should be.

LordGavus

Awesome work again, thanks.

zaria

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Props for the hardwork. I still think racial changes should be free for a week after patch, but I think I a going to stop beating that particular horse. haha.

I will say that I am pretty satisfied where things ended up in terms of balance if this were to go live as is.

Also, LOL that you couldnt find a confident magden. Wonder why?

End of the day, the best race for each class is only giving around 3% damage at most it seems. In other words, it really doesnt matter for most people. It actually makes some of the races with passives that arent oriented around damage a lot more appealing assuming you dont spend all your time in a raid.

Edit: Oh, and Dunmer is still the master race it seems (never worse than 3rd). My inner Morrowind fanboy believes this is how it should be.

Magden is not an dps class, an Breton would do way more DPS as stamina warden.

nsmurfer

@ZOS_Gilliam @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_RichLambert @ZOS_RobGarrett

susmitds wrote: »

Feedback/Observations

Redguard vs Bosmer Sustain

These tests do not do justice to Bosmer sustain compared to Redguard sustain. We specifically tested sustain by using a potion and then draining all stamina on Redguard and Bosmer StamNB, then waiting 8 secs, followed by solo parsing a 3M Skeleton without Potions three times. Bosmer came out 17.5% faster on average. From this, we can deduce that in fights with breaks, Bosmer sustain is around 17.5% better than Redguard (not really an issue as both their sustain is very good)

Imperial

These changes are feeling great for Imperial. Their sustain is just slightly find that Bosmer and Redguard and significantly better than that of Khajiit. The parses show how much their DPS improved. Though I specifically did not test this, I think based on the rest that using Lava Foot and Health enchants to get to 17K HP, Imperials will beat Redguard, Bosmer and Khajiit as DPS. They should be at least Argonian level on Magicka DPS too.

The ultimate cost reduction, great sustain and huge resources would put them on the level of Nord easily for tanking, if not higher.

The Khajiit Dilemma

Starting on something positive, I felt virtually no difference in Solo Buffed DPS for Khajiit. I did not test all races in solo buffed DPS though. It was somewhat different for raid-buffed DPS scenario, where Khajiit is performing not to the point of what other DD races are capable of. To explain this, I will elaborate a bit on what exactly is happening.

The more Critical Hit Damage Modifier you have, it slowly but steadily get more and more redundant, decreasing overall gain from it. To use it efficiently, we will need higher Critical Hit Chances as raw damage from Resources+Weapon/Spell Damage.

Here, where the primary issue lies. Between base CHD, class passives, CP and Minor Force, we already have very high CHD. Khajiit 0.1 CHD is already somewhat reduntant if you have below 75.2% critical hit chance (Thanks for correcting me, guys). StamNB Critical Hit Chance is around 78% and this is lesser for classes like Templar.

Adding to this is the fact that Shadow being a pure Damage Mundus is the new BiS Magicka Mundus but Khajiit is not gaining the required DPS gain from it compared to Thief due to redundancy.

Now, in raids, a huge part of the Damage Done is dealt during the Major Force uptime. This is when the situation goes south. Addition of 0.15 CHD gives less benefit to Khajiit compared to other races, a race, which till now somewhat relied on additional bonus from Major Force to compete with other races, which is a complete 180 turn. Compounding to this fact is that Khajiit has all lowest primary damage resources of all races, meaning they get the least damage from 10% extra resources part.

This also increases the Khajiit's reliance on RNG more as non-crits don't affect Khajiit DPS at all and they happen lesser now.

A few days ago, I saw a post on Dunmer getting higher critical hit damage compared to Khajiit based on rumors. @LiquidPony did a great job at breaking it down.

However, LiquidPony used an edge case of scenario of testing it with builds with very high Weapon Damage 6-9K weapon damage as that point adding Weapon Damage is reduntant and critical hit chance of those builds tend to be quite low in the first place. This is not relevant for the entire picture so I used a more PvP standard setup to test it.

Using Shacklebreaker(Prismatic on big pieces/Stamina on small pieces)+Spriggan+Velidreth/Kraagh as base, I used Snipe as the skill to test damage by. I raised CHD by 0.01 using CP after every test to find the point where Khajiit and Dunmer deals equal critical damage. I used Lover Mundus to stop Mundus from affecting the test intially. The point came at 1.97 non-racial CHD for my particular build.

Khajiit (2.07 CHD) - 41684 Snipe Crit
Dunmer (1.97 CHD) - 41677 Snipe Crit

At this point, I replaced Lover with Shadow.

Shadow Khajiit (2.20 CHD) - 42193 Snipe Crit
Shadow Dunmer (2.10 CHD) - 42311 Snipe Crit

As we see, critical damage beyond the sweet point is coming out higher for Dunmer. Now to be fair, having this high critical damage is another edge case.

But one thing is true that Dunmer+Shadow (254 Weapon Damage+0.13 CHD) will always deal more damage(crit and non crit) compared Khajiit+Warrior(232 Weapon Damage+0.10 CHD).

For PvP situations, the critical change will be buff to builds that can crit on will(namely gankers) and any build that has significant critical hit chance. However on the opposite end of the spectrum, Khajiit builds that depended on the Khajiit Passive to maintain a significant Critical Hit Chance such as Heavy Armor builds (especially build that don't use Fury/Veiled Heritance/Ravager/Seventh Levion) will suffer significantly.

I believe that splitting the passive in Half(5/5 or 4/6 or even 4/5) in between Critical Hit Chance and Critical Hit Damage&Healing will be a fair move, then potential gain from addition CHD modifiers like Shadow, Major Force due to CHC will be countered by redundancy from Critical Hit Damage, balancing it out. Otherwise, there is a fair chance that Khajiit will lag behind significantly once the Crit Meta passes.

Please check this!!!

Seraphayel

Awesome piece of work, as usual. Very much appreciated!

Great to see the difference between Altmer, Dunmer and Breton is almost non-existent anymore. The Khajiit "nerf" might have been a bit too much but even then the parses look very nice.

Great job @ZOS, too.

kojou

Once again very informative.

Your tests confirm my suspicion that Breton is BiS for Magicka DK. It's also a shame that Magicka DK doesn't out parse Magicka NB given that they are melee, but that's nothing new...

I really think DK should get 3% more fire damage to make up for the Dunmer change.

Seraphayel

Oh btw I would love to see some Imperial Magicka tests. You said they might come close to Argonians for Magicka which sounds awesome. Would love to see some parses! But I understand if that might be too much additional work.

casparian

zaria wrote: »

Magden is not an dps class

Eh? Every class should be able to fill every role with more or less comparable results.

Toc de Malsvi

So Orc is still definitely BiS.

They are 1k dps ahead of any race with comparable health. They are slightly ahead of races with 1k less health. They are ahead any way you slice it.

Tanis-Stormbinder

Great Job!

joaaocaampos

So... is this the average (Magicka Races)?

• High Elf: 59,695
• Dark Elf: 59,508
• Breton: 59,495
• Khajiit: 58,581
• Argonian: 58,098

NICE JOB, ZOS! Finally, balanced.

And, yes, Khajiit and Argonian are in good positions, because they can be Stamina and Tank Races, respectively.

susmitds

joaaocaampos wrote: »

So... is this the average (Magicka Races)?

• High Elf: 59,695
• Dark Elf: 59,508
• Breton: 59,495
• Khajiit: 58,581
• Argonian: 58,098

NICE JOB, ZOS! Finally, balanced.

And, yes, Khajiit and Argonian are in good positions, because they can be Stamina and Tank Races, respectively.

I personally believe Khajiit could use some rebalancing given Dunmer can also excel in Stamina far better than Khajiit atm, almost BiS but yes, balance is great.

joaaocaampos

susmitds wrote: »

I personally believe Khajiit could use some rebalancing given Dunmer can also excel in Stamina far better than Khajiit atm, almost BiS but yes, balance is great.

In my opinion, Khajiit and Dark Elf should be in 3rd position in both Magicka and Stamina builds.

That is,

Magicka

• 1º: Breton or High Elf.
• 2º: Breton or High Elf.
• 3º: Dark Elf or Khajiit.
• 4º: Dark Elf or Khajiit.
• 5º: Argonian.

Stamina

• 1º: Redguard or Wood Elf.
• 2º: Redguard or Wood Elf.
• 3º: Dark Elf or Khajiit.
• 4º: Dark Elf or Khajiit
• 5º: Orc.
• 6º: Imperial.

The price to pay for being a hybrid.

joaaocaampos

This is the average for Stamina Races.

• Orc: 63,424
• Dark Elf: 63,307
• Redguard: 62,613
• Khajiit: 62,466
• Wood Elf: 62,448
• Imperial: 62,334

susmitds

joaaocaampos wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

I personally believe Khajiit could use some rebalancing given Dunmer can also excel in Stamina far better than Khajiit atm, almost BiS but yes, balance is great.

In my opinion, Khajiit and Dark Elf should be in 3rd position in both Magicka and Stamina builds.

That is,

Magicka

• 1º: Breton or High Elf.
• 2º: Breton or High Elf.
• 3º: Dark Elf or Khajiit.
• 4º: Dark Elf or Khajiit.
• 5º: Argonian.

Stamina

• 1º: Orc, Redguard or Wood Elf.
• 2º: Orc, Redguard or Wood Elf.
• 3º: Orc, Redguard or Wood Elf.
• 4º: Dark Elf or Khajiit.
• 5º: Dark Elf or Khajiit.
• 6º: Imperial.

The price to pay for being a hybrid.

Technically though these tests raw power in which always the sustain races are usually behind as it is far easier to parse with a sustain race. Which is what in the stamina parses with the sustain races. With Dunmer having almost the same damage bonus as the BiS races on both sides, it is no surprise that it is the second almost every class

Azyle1

susmitds wrote: »

joaaocaampos wrote: »

So... is this the average (Magicka Races)?

• High Elf: 59,695
• Dark Elf: 59,508
• Breton: 59,495
• Khajiit: 58,581
• Argonian: 58,098

NICE JOB, ZOS! Finally, balanced.

And, yes, Khajiit and Argonian are in good positions, because they can be Stamina and Tank Races, respectively.

I personally believe Khajiit could use some rebalancing given Dunmer can also excel in Stamina far better than Khajiit atm, almost BiS but yes, balance is great.

@ZOS_Gilliam Check out that comment ^

Also question for anyone - when does the PTS end? Like is this our last week of testing?

ATreeGnome

Did you collect data for the resource regen/drain for the parses? It could add some helpful context for the numbers.

Moonsorrow

Thanks for the test data, awesome job.

joaaocaampos

joaaocaampos wrote: »

Magicka Races

• High Elf: 59,695
• Dark Elf: 59,508
• Breton: 59,495
• Khajiit: 58,581
• Argonian: 58,098

joaaocaampos wrote: »

Stamina Races.

• Orc: 63,424
• Dark Elf: 63,307
• Redguard: 62,613
• Khajiit: 62,466
• Wood Elf: 62,448
• Imperial: 62,334

@susmitds Ideal balancing

• Magicka
  • 1º: Breton and High Elf.
  • 2º: Dark Elf and Khajiit.
  • 3º: Argonian.

• Stamina
  • 1º: Redguard and Wood Elf.
  • 2º: Dark Elf and Khajiit.
  • 3º: Orc.
  • 4º: Imperial.

That is,

• Breton and High Elf are well balanced.
• Argonian and Imperial will be ignored here.
• Dark Elf: -400 DPS
• Khajiit: +500 DPS
• Orc: -600 DPS
• Redguard: +400 DPS
• Wood Elf: +550 DPS

With this, the races will be well balanced.

In other words,

• Dark Elf => Dynamic: Increases your Max Stamina and Magicka by 1875 1500.
• Khajiit => Go back with the old Feline Ambush. "Increases your Weapon and Spell Critical Chance by 8%."
• Orc => Brawny: Increases your Max Stamina by 2000 1500.
• Redguard => Adrenaline Rush: When you deal Direct Damage, you restore 950 Stamina. This effect can occur once every 5 4 seconds.
• Wood Elf => Hunter’s Eye: Increases your Stealth detection radius by 3m. After you use Roll Dodge you gain 10% Movement Speed for 6 seconds, add a bonus to Physical and Spell Penetration of 1500 1980 for the duration.

ezio45

susmitds wrote: »

Greetings,

Aim

To find DD race's efficiency in a raid buffed DPS test for every class (6M Skeleton)

Gear, Food, CP, Mundus

Magicka Gear - Spell Strategist, Mother's Sorrow, Valkyn Skoria all divines, 2 Bloodthirsty + 1 Infused, Infused Fire Staff, Infused vMA Fire Staff
Stamina Gear - Relenquen, Advancing Yokeda, Velidreth all divines, 2 Bloodthirsty + 1 Infused, Nirn+Precise DW, Infused vMA Bow
Armor + Jewelry Enchants - All Stamina/Magicka(Armor), Weapon/Spell Damage(Jewelry)
Magicka Weapon Enchants - Flame+Infused Absorb Magicka(all except Breton)/Flame+Infused Berserker(Breton)
Stamina Weapon Enchants - Poison&Disease+Infused Absorb Stamina(all except Redguard, Bosmer, Imperial)/Poison&Disease+Infused Berserker(Redguard, Bosmer, Imperial)
Mundus - Lover for Stamina tests. Shadow for Magicka tests as it was coming out strongly as BiS for all races except Khajiit, for which I also tested Thief.
CP - We used Alcast's website ones to save time.
Spammable - Magicka - Elemental Weapon for all except DK. Stamina - Class Spammable wherever possible, otherwise Crushing Weapon(most races) or Shrouded Daggers(Redguard)
Food - Blue Food.

Procedure

Raid-Buffed DPS Test with 4 Warhorns - All Minor Class specific buffs + Minor Berserk provided + Orbs/Shards. Elemental Drain is provided. 1st Warhorn is given at the start of the test. 2nd Warhorn is given when the skeleton is down to 75%. 3rd Warhorn is given when the skeleton is down to 50%. 4th Warhorn is given when the skeleton is down to 25%. This results in 38 secs of Major Force uptime, spread across 4 phases. 20 Samples are Taken for ever class per race.

Results

Magicka DPS Tests

Magicka Dragonknight



Magicka Nightblade



Magicka Sorcerer



Magicka Templar



Magicka Warden


Note - We did not have any Magicka Warden main in our guild who was confident about parsing. Hence, the Magicka Warden test can be somewhat unreliable.

Stamina DPS Tests

Stamina Dragonknight



Stamina Nightblade



Stamina Sorcerer



Stamina Templar



Stamina Warden



All this was possible due to the assistance of Hell Runners Guild.

Is the magsorc test pet or non pet