PTS Update 21 - Feedback Thread for Racial Passive Changes

ZOS_GinaBruno

This is the official feedback thread for the racial passive changes. After you have a chance to try out different combat scenarios, let us know what you think of the current balance and changes.

susmitds

Khajiit's Robustness passive is underpowered compared to every other resource regen passive. Usually with tri-stat bonus, we see the total value being higher than the individual stat bonus, with each stat being half of that of a single stat bonus. Total value of Robustness passive is 250, which is lesser than the 254 bonus system used.

100 health regen is useless compared to 20% health regen as we can not really build around 100 health regen unlike the previous bonus' synergy with Troll King and other setups as healing is times more powerful in the general case scenario, both in PvE and PvP. Any other bonus, even basic resists, would be better compared to health regen. Something like a healing done or healing recieved bonus would help healer or tanks.

75 regen, even when considered with every single percantage mutliplier amount to lesser than 150 regen per second, far lesser than that of any proper DD focussed race (Orc, Altmer, Redguard, Bosmer, Argonian).

Making the passive even more weaker is that it is spread across three resources with health regen as mentioned being virtually useless. Primary resource regen is all that matters in PvE. Secondary resource regen only matters for mostly magicka races and stamina nightblade in PvP and that too much lesser than primary resource regen.

Raising the regen values would be great, preferrably if the health regen is removed and redistributed to the other resource regen.

Also with the new passive, Khajiit will suffer from lack of identity, as the bonuses are very similar to Dunmer with Dunmer having higher resources and similar PvE performance.

PvP wise, Khajiit is basically a weaker Dunmer with inferior versions of the same bonus (almost half the stamina and magicka but barely higher health) and the fact that Critical bonus is much weaker compared to raw weapon damage in PvP due abundance of crit resistance, makes it worse. Some PvP love would be great, especially with 10% starting damage loss.

Compared to live - My standard PvE setup gained 13 stam regen but my standard PvP setup lost 89 stam regen and 215 health regen for 94 mag regen. Khajiit PvP seems bad this time around.

susmitds

Greetings,

I spent a significant part of the last few days testing 650+ PvE DPS parses across races and class with guild mates, collecting data samples and then analyzing the raw data into comparable formats and finally presented the data into an easy to read format here -> https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/455092/raid-buffed-dps-comparison-of-each-race-by-class-tests-graphs-interpretation-and-final-score/p1
During this testing, I learn certain things about the races, which is more subjective in nature, rather than objective. I will give some details of this subjective data below.
For PvP, it is not that straight forward, as it is not finitely possible to test data objectively, without having access to wide-spread balance information. However, given certain constraints and known tendencies, we can closely approximate the efficiency of particular races in particular builds and overall PvP performance.
I present my feedback on a par race basis down below.

Altmer

PvE - They are very effective as Magicka DPS. Sustain is similar to Live and feels okayish. Needs some sustain support for best performance.

PvP - Max stat builds got nerfed, more spell damage means that magic damage using builds got buffed. Max recovery builds got nerfed.

Suggested Changes - None, even though I initially thought, they are OP, after testing, I would say they are very balanced.

Bosmer

PvE - That sustain boost feels real good. Of all stamina races, they feel most natural to execute rotations with. This shows on how high consistent parses are. They might just eclipse Redguard on any build that does not use Weapon spammables by a neglible difference.

PvP - They are buffed significantly in PvP too, sustain wise. Though Stealthy passive loss is regrettable, the new roll bonus speed is times more powerful, for every playstyle, even stealthy ones. It is so good that it even might require adjustment. Bosmer, dodging with bow in Stealth, sneaks faster than running. Looks like, finally AD has an answer for a true Brawler race.

Suggested Changes - None.

Khajiit

PvE - They are rather good damage dealers across most roles with two major flaws, which can even be considered deal breakers for a good number of players. These are poor sustain and extremely bad consistentency/very high variance for every role. This can be understood easily by studying the line graphs in the data sample above. These two issues compound each other. I will explain further below.

The characteristics of this race is the lowest static damage increase stats(Max Stamina/Magicka, Weapon/Spell Damage) even lesser than non-DD races. They are literally carried by their critical chance of 8%, which is huge but entirely luck based. Base sustain is rather poor, compared to every other race. Adding more sustain will come at the cost of further drop of raw damage, which is not really preferable for a race, lacking static damage multipliers.

This can cause major shifts in raid DPS, depending on crit rate of hard hitting abilities in burn phases. This can seen very prominently in the tests. Tn some cases, the initial two Major Force burn phases, resonated perfectly with the crits, DPS stayed high, and I went with low resource strain to the final burn and execute phases. Some cases, the opposite happened causing the initial phases to last stages, forcing a heavy attack in the worst possible time of Major Force execution phase, which is a huge DPS loss. There are a negative spiral can start, where the worse your sustain, the lesser your DPS gets, further straining sustain and the cycle continues. This is why, Khajiit is going to be a generally very unforgiving race to play with.

For e.g, getting a 50k Bow Proc and 5 back to back 55k+ Killer's Blade during the final Major Force buffed execution phases is an incredible boost to DPS. There is also the chance of opposite with a heavy attack, non crit Bow proc and non-crit executes, wrecking the DPS results. Unlike Dunmer, Orc, Bosmer, Redguard or even Imperial, the only static damage increase passive for Khajiit Stamblade is 750 Stamina, which is significantly lesser than 2000 stamina or 250 weapon damage or both. This alone cannot make up for RNGesus failing me.

This instability will skew more towards the lower side of the spectrum for most players, that realistically can not execute perfect rotations for whatever the reason. For higher end players, classes like Dunmer and Orc may be more appealing, as they tends to get similar high parses as the Khajiit, without the low parses due to their static damage increase. Only real solution to somewhat stabilize their DPS, while keeping their overall critical nature intact is to slightly fix their sustain. Essentially, PvE wise, Khajiit are unstable Dunmer with more unforgivable rotations and that is not a really good for the race's identity.

PvP - In PvP, they are literally inferior versions of Dunmer. The primary reason is that, their strongest passive(8% crit) is nullified by the rampant amount of crit resist, most players use. The average PvPer runs anything between 2500 to 4000 crit resist, virtually making that passive useless while Dunmer's Weapon/Spell damage shines here as well. Their resources are lesser than that of Dunmer. Their 5m sneak reduction passive is inferior to Flame Resist and Burning Immunity. Their new tri-stat recovery is a shadow of its previous self for PvP builds. This causes Khajiit to be one of the weakest PvP races, lacking an identity.
Also, from @Left4Daud 's tests, https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/455172/a-visual-of-khajiits-new-stealth-capability-stacking-is-quite-extreme/p1, it is shown that the new Stealth passive allows Khajiits to buff Sneak to true Invisibility levels, which means Sneak does not break at all, even when face to face with an enemy. This is massively abusable if left in the game in this state. Changing this passive to the Previous 3m sneak reduction with some additional stealth features might be great.

Suggested Changes
Robustness - 150 Stamina/150 Magicka Recovery. The Health recovery of 100 is virtually useless in every single build in the game.
Feline Ambush - 8% Weapon/Spell Critical Hit Chance. Decreases your sneak radius by 3m and increases your speed when hidden by 12%. This would give Khajiit a proper identity(Stealth moblity unit)

Breton

PvE - They are the smoothest magicka DPS. Sustain is the greatest of any race in the game. Can go fully glass cannon in PvE, with minimal group support.

PvP - Max stat builds got nerfed, however their sustain might allow going fully glass cannon. Their natural defense should be handy as well.

Suggested Changes - None.

Redguard

PvE - They have the highest sustain of all stamina races, higher than Bosmer. However, their sustain is primarily conditional and will drop considerably in real fights, while Bosmer's sustain is unconditional. They synergize with builds using weapon spammables the best. Their weapon cost reduction passive affects ultimates as well. They are great tanks as well for the conditional sustain.

PvP - Essentially they are Bosmer without the Speed buff and with Weapon skill sustain instead. Should do good for Stamsorcs and StamDKs.

Suggested Changes - None.

Orc

PvE - Great for most stamina DPS tests. Tends to come out to top of other races for most classes. Their sustain, when weapon skills are prioritized is good and decreases need for any group sustain.

PvP - Used to the one of the best PvP stamina races. If anything, they are just going to the get better. Possibly the best PvP stamina race.

Suggested Changes - None.

Nord

PvE - Performly fairly well for most stamina races, synergizing further with StamDK with their Ult generation passive. Same passive made indisputablely winners in the PvE tank category. Possibly great race for healers as well now.

PvP - That ultimate generation can be built around for a great number of builds. Easily, one of the best Stamina PvP races, this time.

Suggested Changes - None.

Argonian

PvE - Performly fairly well for most magicka races, as well certain stamina races. High tri-stat makes them still the best sustain tank in the game. They make great healers too.

PvP - Still, should one of the best PvP races with bursty tri-stat sustain.

Suggested Changes - None.

Dunmer

PvE - They perform incredibly well in raids, having the highest buffed stamina DPS numbers almost across the board, while maintaining great magicka DPS numbers as well. This is weird, considering they are a hybrid race. Their natural sustain is low but they have the highest static DPS increase in the stamina side, which allows group sustain help reach high parses, without losing out much on consistency. Essentially, a less random version of Khajiit.

PvP - They should be very good for all PvP builds, with their massive resource stack and raw damage bonus.

Suggested Changes
Dynamic - 2000 Magicka. This should allow them to be at least, not inferior to Altmer for every aspect of magicka DPS, theoritically at the cost stamina.
Resist Flame - 650 stamina, 2310 Flame Resist and Burning Immunity. This would keep them as a great contender for stamina DPS, while also not them superior to pure stamina DPS races.
They would have the theoretical highest raw numbers for both sides without the sustain, showing their lore wise destructive nature.

Imperial

PvE - Performly fairly well for most stamina races and their health is useful for magicka characters too. They make good tanks as well.

PvP - Their high resources are great for PvP builds in general. They should make great PvP tanks.

Suggested Changes
Red Diamond - When you deal Direct Damage you have a 15% chance to heal for 1750. When you block Direct Damage you have a 15% chance to gain 1750 Stamina. 2 sec CD. This would make them very good pure tanks for PvE and brawlers for PvP, while also displaying their lore wise weapon discipline. The CD will there to stop it from being OP.

This is my honest feedback for the racial changes. Thanks for reading.

@ZOS_Gilliam @ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_RobGarrett @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_RichLambert @ZOS_Finn

Ragnaroek93

I really like the changes (especially Woodelf looks very appealing to me) it makes the racials unique and I think almost all races have a niche now in which they're the best, which can be considered as balance.

My two concerns are Dunmer and Khajiit: Every race gets something unique but meanwhile you take away the thing which makes Dunmers unique.
It would be quite fair to give them another boost to firedmg or something. They weren't even that strong before the changes, they were only slightly (by maybe 2%) ahead in endgame PvE, in PvP they were always behind other races except on Dk.
Khajiit's get a nice boost to their stat density but sadly the health regen isn't very great. Also the crit chance is unique but not very appealing for PvP. Maybe replace it with some critical damage instead, which is good in both PvE (I think so at least, please correct me if I'm wrong, I'm a PvP player) and good in PvP as well.

What I really like are the changes to Bretons, Wood Elves and High Elves, really looking forward to test them on PTS. Good job on these.

Zordrage

for breton i would prefer if they would get some Spell penetration.....

somewhere somehow....

overall i love the changes.... i don't need to focus on regen stuff now that much ...

Lord_Eomer

Zordrage wrote: »

for breton i would prefer if they would get some Spell penetration.....

somewhere somehow....

No need for spell penetration,

Most end game pve contents, magcika easily reaches to penetration limit.

Lord_Eomer

Khajit : remove health recovery bonus and increase stam & mag recovery to 150

Dalsinthus

While I like the changes to wood elves overall, I am very disappointed to see the removal of the stealth passive and addition of a stealth detection passive.

1.) Stealthiness has been part of wood elf lore in the elder scrolls series. It was a primary reason that I play the race.

2.) the developer notes for this change suggest that stealth gameplay is niche, but the replacement ability - stealth detection - is considerably more niche and will see little use in game.

Please revert this change or rethink the changes to stealth passives.

BaylorCorvette

I think Orc is in a fairly decent place. I still feel like the flat value health and stamina should be increased to 1k. 500 is almost nothing and feels like a real waste of a whole racial passive.

Also the 380 heal from Unflinching is super underwhelming. I rather just see that removed and the Stamina return increased to something like 500-700 Stamina. A 190 heal every 4 seconds in Cyrodiil is only useful if you stub your toe and need relief.

Tommy_The_Gun

(Sorry for the long post, I have tried to make it as compact as possible):

Here is my initial feedback on the racial changes ZOS has proposed because there are a lot problems that needs to be addressed. I will mostly focus on Argonian racial changes:

Problems / pain points (more details in spoilers):
1. Infused jewellery with potion speed glyphs:

This is the very reason why you had so many people saying that Resourceful passive is too strong.

Argonians only became super popular and very often used (especially in PvP) after Summerset Update. In this update Jewelry Crafting and new jewelry traits were introduced. One of those traits is “Infused” that makes your Glyph Enchantment 60% stronger. When combined with glyph of potions speed it boosts 5 second reduction to 8 seconds. When all 3 jewelry are used like that you can reduce potion cooldown by 24 seconds, meaning that you can drink a potion every 21 seconds instead of 45 seconds.
This means that Argonian Resourceful passive is effectively doubled by that as you can drink potion 2 times within 45 second period. Now lets look at numbers and compare live server to PTS:

Live Server: 4620 Stamina + 4620 Magicka + 46020 Health = 13860 x2 (drinking 2 times within 45 seconds) = 27720 total resources
PTS: 3600 Stamina + 3600 Magicka + 3600 Health = 10800 x2 (drinking 2 times within 45 seconds) = 21600 total resources

As you can see the numbers are slightly lower on PTS but still pretty high, meaning that Argonian running this setup might still be Over Preforming. Also, as you can see above, tweaking / reducing the numbers simply wont work. And additionally if you tweak the numbers too low, Argonians as a race will have nothing to offer.

2. Resourceful passive is not using its full “mathematical” potential 90% of times:

The thing with this passive is that “on paper” it provides a lot of resources. 13860 in total on live server. But the thing is, you can very rarely (almost never in fact) use its full potential and almost always some resources are going to be wasted. Simple example:

You are a tank in a dungeon blocking dmg. You see that you are running out of stamina, so you drink a potion to restore it so you can block dmg. However you do not restore health & magicka simply because those resources are already at 100%. The next thing that often follows this is all the sudden you need magicka, but because your magicka pool is small it is depleted quickly, while your potion is on cooldown.

This is why even though this passive has a high mathematical potential it is never fully used. In short, something might look good on paper but in practice – it is not working AS good. This is why you need to take that into account when calculating effectiveness of each passive.

3. Lack of sense of progression:

The one of your main goals is to make leveling racial passives to feel rewarding. However, in case of Argonian racial passives changes, this feels quite the opposite. You see, when you will reach level 50 on an Argonian character what you will unlock is… a whopping 4% healing done…
This does not feel rewarding at all (as it is the reward for level 50), and you might just stay on level 30 as with level 30 you will unlock stage III of Resourceful passive. Sure, on level 40 you unlock 3% additional health (so with the new changes it will be something like… 250 health ? )

4. Limited use:

After the new changes to Argonian passives go live, all who play this race might find themselves in a very difficult spot. The Resourceful passive is being reduced and the healing received bonus is being taken away. This means that Argonians that were terrible for DPS role but good for a Tank role and good for a Healer role… it will no longer be the case.

You see, changes done to other races will simply make other races far better choices for specific roles. As a healer, Argonians with their 4% healing done will be simply outmatched by: High Elves, Bretons, Dark Elves and even Khajiits.

The same will happen to tank role as Argonians, now lacking the 5% healing received bonus will be outmatched by:
Nord, Orc , Redguard and Imperial

The thing is Argonians are being nerfed in the roles they were good at without any compensation buff for the role they were terrible at (DPS role).

So if this changes go live, taking an Argonian Tank, Healer or DPS to a veteran dungeon or a trial will simply be not worthwhile thus Argonians will not be viable at any role. This also stands in total opposite to the original racial changes goals.

5. All changes done to Argonian racial passives stands in the total opposite to almost of the all original racial changes goals:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/453551/upcoming-racial-balance-changes-for-update-21/p1
1. Allow more effective options when picking a race for each role in tanking, healing, or damage dealing.
2. Equalize the overall power that each race provides by using our set bonus efficiency system, which compares the total amount of power that a bonus provides under equal terms.
3. Retain and enhance the unique feeling and gameplay patterns that each race allows.
4. Improve the sense of progression that the racial passives provide when leveling up.
5. Achieve the above goals while still obeying our rich and structured lore and storytelling.

In short, Argonians, with those changes will be not viable as a Tank, Healer or DPS (their use will be limited to maybe like 2 – 5 niche builds), they will lose the sense of progression and will heave less options.

Thoughts:
Resourceful: It now restores 3600 magicka, stamina and health. That is 3060 resources reduction across the board. That is 23% reduction. It feels more like a very misguided, panic overreaction and walk around from a real problem, rather than actual solution to the problem.

Suggestions:
- You have a perfect opportunity to make this passive more streamlined and consistent with the rest of the game as attribute points & gear sets tend to provide roughly 10% more health than stamina & magicka.
- Do not focus on reducing the resources that “resourceful passive” gives that much (keep the values somewhere between 3900 – 4200 ) and instead add some form of cooldown to this passive.
- Alternatively, instead of a cooldown you can add diminish return of resources if you drink potion too quickly.
- If you want to keep values at the proposed level (3600), think of adding increased duration of potion effects by [x] seconds to this passive.
- Alternatively, reduce resources this passive gives significantly but add an additional, greater resources gain to your lowest resource pool.

Examples:

A ) Resourceful: Increases your Max Magicka by 1000.
Restore 4290 Health, 3900 Magicka, and 3900 Stamina when you drink a potion. This effect can occur ever 30 seconds.

Comment:

The base values were increased but the cooldown was added. This will reduces its potential high resources sustain, but still will leave some room for builds variety: So people can use some potions speed enchants, but with a limited effectiveness. This will make more important and rewarding to drink your potions more strategically, rather than every time when they are off cooldown.

B ) Resourceful: Increases your Max Magicka by 1000.
Restore 4290 Health, 3900 Magicka, and 3900 Stamina when you drink a potion. If you drink potion sooner than 30 seconds, resources restored by this passive are halved.

Comment:

Instead of cooldown you can add an additional effect that will reduce the values by 2 times if you will drink the potion too fast. So instead of getting 4290 Health, 3900 Magicka, 3900 Stamina you will get: 2145 Health, 1950 Magicka, 1950 Stamina This will be more suitable solution for DPS roles as they can still use potions that buff weapon & spell DMG and get some resources back.

C ) Resourceful: Increases your Max Magicka by 1000. Increase the duration of potion effects by [5] seconds
Restore 3960 Health, 3600 Magicka, and 3600 Stamina when you drink a potion.

Comment:

Slightly lower base resources, but instead you will have 5 second bonus to potion effects. This will be more suitable solution for DPS roles as they can still use potions that buff weapon & spell DMG and get better uptime on those potions.

D ) Resourceful: Increases your Max Magicka by 1000.
Restore 2200 Health, 2000 Magicka, and 2000 Stamina and additional 4800 resources of your current lowest resource pool when you drink a potion.
Comment:

Base resources were reduced significantly and additional, larger pool of resources were added, but only to one of your resources pool. So if you will drink a potion and you are missing 10K health, 8K Magicka and 20K stamina – your stamina will be restored more as more of it is missing.

Quick to Mend (new - Life Mender): This passive also took a strong reduction as now it only boost your healing done by 4%. It is about 60% nerf to its effectiveness.

As I have said earlier this passive in its current state is not worth being the “reward” for level 50. It gives to little. I can imagine people playing the game first time, with limited amount of skill points and when they reach level 50 they will put skill points rather to some weapon or class passives than this. It simply is far less beneficial.
Also it is somewhat contradictory to the lore as in lore, Argonians because of their reptilian bodies and how their metabolism works they can be healed much faster. Some bonus for healing received should still be there.

Suggestions:
- Add… anything to this passive. For a passive that you unlock on level 50 it feels far too weak.
- It can be 4% healing received.
- If not, then at least make it to provide larger bonus to healing done (7 – 8 %).
- If you don’t want to give it an additional % values, add increased health recovery

or

restore [x] health (not much) when you are healed. This effect can occur ever [x] seconds.

Examples:

A ) Quick to Mend (Life Mender): Increases your Healing Done by 7%.

B ) Quick to Mend (Life Mender): Increases your Healing Done by 4% and Healing Received by 4%.

C ) Quick to Mend (Life Mender): Increases your Healing Done by 4%. When you are healed, increase health recovery by 50 for 5 seconds this effect can occur every 10 seconds

D ) Quick to Mend (Life Mender): Increases your Healing Done by 4%. When you are healed, restore 100 health. This effect can occur every 10 seconds.

Now, I hope that some one will read this and will pass this information further. So if you are for example a class representative, please – pass this formation further and share it.

Lord_Eomer

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

(Sorry for the long post, I have tried to make it as compact as possible):

Here is my initial feedback on the racial changes ZOS has proposed because there are a lot problems that needs to be addressed. I will mostly focus on Argonian racial changes:

Problems / pain points (more details in spoilers):
1. Infused jewellery with potion speed glyphs:

This is the very reason why you had so many people saying that Resourceful passive is too strong.

Argonians only became super popular and very often used (especially in PvP) after Summerset Update. In this update Jewelry Crafting and new jewelry traits were introduced. One of those traits is “Infused” that makes your Glyph Enchantment 60% stronger. When combined with glyph of potions speed it boosts 5 second reduction to 8 seconds. When all 3 jewelry are used like that you can reduce potion cooldown by 24 seconds, meaning that you can drink a potion every 21 seconds instead of 45 seconds.
This means that Argonian Resourceful passive is effectively doubled by that as you can drink potion 2 times within 45 second period. Now lets look at numbers and compare live server to PTS:

Live Server: 4620 Stamina + 4620 Magicka + 46020 Health = 13860 x2 (drinking 2 times within 45 seconds) = 27720 total resources
PTS: 3600 Stamina + 3600 Magicka + 3600 Health = 10800 x2 (drinking 2 times within 45 seconds) = 21600 total resources

As you can see the numbers are slightly lower on PTS but still pretty high, meaning that Argonian running this setup might still be Over Preforming. Also, as you can see above, tweaking / reducing the numbers simply wont work. And additionally if you tweak the numbers too low, Argonians as a race will have nothing to offer.

2. Resourceful passive is not using its full “mathematical” potential 90% of times:

The thing with this passive is that “on paper” it provides a lot of resources. 13860 in total on live server. But the thing is, you can very rarely (almost never in fact) use its full potential and almost always some resources are going to be wasted. Simple example:

You are a tank in a dungeon blocking dmg. You see that you are running out of stamina, so you drink a potion to restore it so you can block dmg. However you do not restore health & magicka simply because those resources are already at 100%. The next thing that often follows this is all the sudden you need magicka, but because your magicka pool is small it is depleted quickly, while your potion is on cooldown.

This is why even though this passive has a high mathematical potential it is never fully used. In short, something might look good on paper but in practice – it is not working AS good. This is why you need to take that into account when calculating effectiveness of each passive.

3. Lack of sense of progression:

The one of your main goals is to make leveling racial passives to feel rewarding. However, in case of Argonian racial passives changes, this feels quite the opposite. You see, when you will reach level 50 on an Argonian character what you will unlock is… a whopping 4% healing done…
This does not feel rewarding at all (as it is the reward for level 50), and you might just stay on level 30 as with level 30 you will unlock stage III of Resourceful passive. Sure, on level 40 you unlock 3% additional health (so with the new changes it will be something like… 250 health ? )

4. Limited use:

After the new changes to Argonian passives go live, all who play this race might find themselves in a very difficult spot. The Resourceful passive is being reduced and the healing received bonus is being taken away. This means that Argonians that were terrible for DPS role but good for a Tank role and good for a Healer role… it will no longer be the case.

You see, changes done to other races will simply make other races far better choices for specific roles. As a healer, Argonians with their 4% healing done will be simply outmatched by: High Elves, Bretons, Dark Elves and even Khajiits.

The same will happen to tank role as Argonians, now lacking the 5% healing received bonus will be outmatched by:
Nord, Orc , Redguard and Imperial

The thing is Argonians are being nerfed in the roles they were good at without any compensation buff for the role they were terrible at (DPS role).

So if this changes go live, taking an Argonian Tank, Healer or DPS to a veteran dungeon or a trial will simply be not worthwhile thus Argonians will not be viable at any role. This also stands in total opposite to the original racial changes goals.

5. All changes done to Argonian racial passives stands in the total opposite to almost of the all original racial changes goals:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/453551/upcoming-racial-balance-changes-for-update-21/p1
1. Allow more effective options when picking a race for each role in tanking, healing, or damage dealing.
2. Equalize the overall power that each race provides by using our set bonus efficiency system, which compares the total amount of power that a bonus provides under equal terms.
3. Retain and enhance the unique feeling and gameplay patterns that each race allows.
4. Improve the sense of progression that the racial passives provide when leveling up.
5. Achieve the above goals while still obeying our rich and structured lore and storytelling.

In short, Argonians, with those changes will be not viable as a Tank, Healer or DPS (their use will be limited to maybe like 2 – 5 niche builds), they will lose the sense of progression and will heave less options.

Thoughts:
Resourceful: It now restores 3600 magicka, stamina and health. That is 3060 resources reduction across the board. That is 23% reduction. It feels more like a very misguided, panic overreaction and walk around from a real problem, rather than actual solution to the problem.

Suggestions:
- You have a perfect opportunity to make this passive more streamlined and consistent with the rest of the game as attribute points & gear sets tend to provide roughly 10% more health than stamina & magicka.
- Do not focus on reducing the resources that “resourceful passive” gives that much (keep the values somewhere between 3900 – 4200 ) and instead add some form of cooldown to this passive.
- Alternatively, instead of a cooldown you can add diminish return of resources if you drink potion too quickly.
- If you want to keep values at the proposed level (3600), think of adding increased duration of potion effects by [x] seconds to this passive.
- Alternatively, reduce resources this passive gives significantly but add an additional, greater resources gain to your lowest resource pool.

Examples:

A ) Resourceful: Increases your Max Magicka by 1000.
Restore 4290 Health, 3900 Magicka, and 3900 Stamina when you drink a potion. This effect can occur ever 30 seconds.

Comment:

The base values were increased but the cooldown was added. This will reduces its potential high resources sustain, but still will leave some room for builds variety: So people can use some potions speed enchants, but with a limited effectiveness. This will make more important and rewarding to drink your potions more strategically, rather than every time when they are off cooldown.

B ) Resourceful: Increases your Max Magicka by 1000.
Restore 4290 Health, 3900 Magicka, and 3900 Stamina when you drink a potion. If you drink potion sooner than 30 seconds, resources restored by this passive are halved.

Comment:

Instead of cooldown you can add an additional effect that will reduce the values by 2 times if you will drink the potion too fast. So instead of getting 4290 Health, 3900 Magicka, 3900 Stamina you will get: 2145 Health, 1950 Magicka, 1950 Stamina This will be more suitable solution for DPS roles as they can still use potions that buff weapon & spell DMG and get some resources back.

C ) Resourceful: Increases your Max Magicka by 1000. Increase the duration of potion effects by [5] seconds
Restore 3960 Health, 3600 Magicka, and 3600 Stamina when you drink a potion.

Comment:

Slightly lower base resources, but instead you will have 5 second bonus to potion effects. This will be more suitable solution for DPS roles as they can still use potions that buff weapon & spell DMG and get better uptime on those potions.

D ) Resourceful: Increases your Max Magicka by 1000.
Restore 2200 Health, 2000 Magicka, and 2000 Stamina and additional 4800 resources of your current lowest resource pool when you drink a potion.
Comment:

Base resources were reduced significantly and additional, larger pool of resources were added, but only to one of your resources pool. So if you will drink a potion and you are missing 10K health, 8K Magicka and 20K stamina – your stamina will be restored more as more of it is missing.

Quick to Mend (new - Life Mender): This passive also took a strong reduction as now it only boost your healing done by 4%. It is about 60% nerf to its effectiveness.

As I have said earlier this passive in its current state is not worth being the “reward” for level 50. It gives to little. I can imagine people playing the game first time, with limited amount of skill points and when they reach level 50 they will put skill points rather to some weapon or class passives than this. It simply is far less beneficial.
Also it is somewhat contradictory to the lore as in lore, Argonians because of their reptilian bodies and how their metabolism works they can be healed much faster. Some bonus for healing received should still be there.

Suggestions:
- Add… anything to this passive. For a passive that you unlock on level 50 it feels far too weak.
- It can be 4% healing received.
- If not, then at least make it to provide larger bonus to healing done (7 – 8 %).
- If you don’t want to give it an additional % values, add increased health recovery

or

restore [x] health (not much) when you are healed. This effect can occur ever [x] seconds.

Examples:

A ) Quick to Mend (Life Mender): Increases your Healing Done by 7%.

B ) Quick to Mend (Life Mender): Increases your Healing Done by 4% and Healing Received by 4%.

C ) Quick to Mend (Life Mender): Increases your Healing Done by 4%. When you are healed, increase health recovery by 50 for 5 seconds this effect can occur every 10 seconds

D ) Quick to Mend (Life Mender): Increases your Healing Done by 4%. When you are healed, restore 100 health. This effect can occur every 10 seconds.

Now, I hope that some one will read this and will pass this information further. So if you are for example a class representative, please – pass this formation further and share it.

Everyone running currently argonians and with your proposed buff there shall be no need for other races

Carbonised

There's already been posts about this on the main forums. Changing the Dunmer race as more or less tied with Altmer for best mag DPS race for YEARS in this game, to now being in the FOURTH place behind Altmer, Breton and Khajiit is simply unacceptable. We created our magicka characters years ago, and have invested in them, and now we will be extremely underpowered compared to FOUR other races. This is not a "rebalance" of Dunmer racials, it's a complete redefinition from the high magic affinity that they have ALWAYS had in ESO for 5 years now.

And it is completely and utterly unacceptable. Not to mention the complete laughable "hybrid" role that you seem to intend for them, in a game where playing hybrid is unviable and suicide.

Dunmer need to retain their boost to fire magic, to retain the current balance, which means they will still have 0 sustain compared to Altmer and especially Breton, though their increased fire damage will make up for it. The current complete redefinition of the Dunmer race from a magicka race to something completely different cannot go live as it is.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO

@ZOS_GinaBruno

Bug: Tooltips for the classes haven't been updated on the character creation screen. For example Argonian References Poison Resistance and Bosmer Disease resistance, its actually the other way around according to the notes. Also Nord references health regen etc..

Re. Imperial, is there a reason why their 12% health boost went to 2k but other classes 10% health boost also went to 2k? why not make Imperial 2.5k?

Brrrofski

BaylorCorvette wrote: »

I think Orc is in a fairly decent place. I still feel like the flat value health and stamina should be increased to 1k. 500 is almost nothing and feels like a real waste of a whole racial passive.

Also the 380 heal from Unflinching is super underwhelming. I rather just see that removed and the Stamina return increased to something like 500-700 Stamina. A 190 heal every 4 seconds in Cyrodiil is only useful if you stub your toe and need relief.

It really needs to increase from 500 each to 1k each.

Orc lost 12% overall stats and gained 1k overall stats

Other races like altmer, redguard and Breton lost 10% overall stats and gained 2k stats overall

Latios

Brrrofski wrote: »

BaylorCorvette wrote: »

I think Orc is in a fairly decent place. I still feel like the flat value health and stamina should be increased to 1k. 500 is almost nothing and feels like a real waste of a whole racial passive.

Also the 380 heal from Unflinching is super underwhelming. I rather just see that removed and the Stamina return increased to something like 500-700 Stamina. A 190 heal every 4 seconds in Cyrodiil is only useful if you stub your toe and need relief.

It really needs to increase from 500 each to 1k each.

Orc lost 12% overall stats and gained 1k overall stats

Other races like altmer, redguard and Breton lost 10% overall stats and gained 2k stats overall

Basically this. Give Orcs a little more in flat stats and they'll be pretty nice!

Yamenstein

susmitds wrote: »

Currently on live, we have a racial balance of magicka races as follows :-

1. Dunmer - Slightly more damage than Altmer but zero sustain.
2. Altmer - Damage + Sustain balanced
3. Breton - Pure sustain

However we see that with the new racial bonuses, this balance is badly affected, with Altmer being the best in most regards than other races, Dunmer being an inferior version of Altmer for magicka PvE DPS in all regards and Breton being in a very balanced but essentially unviable position as it is possible to sustain enough with an Altmer with the exact same gear.

I believe, it is possible to bring the races closer to each other, without affecting the currently stable equivalence of the situation with just a few tweaks.

Dunmer

• Increases Experience gain in Dual Wield Skill Line by 15%, reduces damage taken from Lava by 50% → No changes
• Dynamic: 6% Max Stamina and Magicka → Increases your Max Magicka by 2000. (Instead of 1250M+1250S)
• Resist Flame: 3% Max Magicka and 2079 Flame Resistance → Increases your Max Stamina by 600 and your Flame Resistance by 2310. You are immune to the Burning status effect. (Instead of Health)
• Destructive Ancestry: 7% Flame damage and 2% Frost/Shock Damage → Ruination: Increases your Weapon and Spell Damage by 258.

Reasoning - 2000 magicka will allow Dunmer to retain being the highest damage dealer for magicka races with lowest sustain, having more magicka than Altmer. However, for that reason, Stamina is dropped to 600 (650 less), which along with 254 weapon damage will still allow them to perform competitively for stamina builds, in fact with still great raw damage than Bosmer or Redguard but no longer the highest theoritically.

Altmer

• Increases Experience gain in Destruction Staff Skill Line by 15%, extra 1% Generic Experience gain → No changes
• Spellcharge: 9% Magicka Recovery → Spell Recharge: Restore 600 Magicka or Stamina, based on whichever is higher, after activating a Class Ability. This effect can occur once every 6 seconds. Reduces damage taken by 5% while you are using an ability with a cast or channel time. (Slight increase in value)
• Gift of Magnus: 10% Max Magicka → Syrabane’s Boon: Increases your Max Magicka by 1750. (Slight drop in resource values)
• Elemental Talent: 4% Fire/Shock/Ice damage → Increases your Spell Damage by 258.

Reasoning - Altmer is mathematical superior to every magicka oriented race for overall performance. This slight adjustment of -250 Magicka with slight increase in sustain values will bring them closer to the rest, meaning they are still the most balanced race from a magicka DPS perspective, just not superior to other races both in terms of raw damage potential and sustain.

Breton

• Increases Experience gain in Light Armor Skill Line by 15%, extra 1% Alliance Point gain → No changes
• Gift of Magnus: 10% Max Magicka → Increases your Max Magicka by 2000.
• Spell Resistance: 3960 Spell Resistance → Gain 2310 Spell Resistance and 100 Magicka Recovery.
• Magicka Mastery: 3% Magicka Cost Reduction → Reduces the Magicka cost of your abilities by 7%.

Reasoning - No change for them as they are the most balanced magicka oriented race from a theorycrafting standpoint. The other racial changes will essentially bring Breton closer to the rest.

With these changes, we have a more balanced racial stability scenario, as demonstrated below.


It will keep a reasonable approach to the DPS meta, where none of the race is better than the other, simply different. Also it solves the issue of the Dunmer being very similar to the Khajiit bonus-wise while retaining their hybrid essence intact.
@ZOS_Gilliam @ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_RobGarrett

Didn't touch make a post or thread with this same exact message before PTS went live ? I'm curious if you tested out the changes or if you just posted this :P

Anhedonie

I think Imperials really don't need red diamon passive. Healing on damage is not very useful and could be removed or replaced with something way better.

Wolfchild07

Racial passives that apply specifically to weapon abilities do not apply to werewolves. Could you please adjust these types of passives with werewolves in mind?

saganblackblade

I like A LOT of these changes. Looks to me like there's a few that need raised or lowered. Only actual area of concern is on Dunmer, but I won't go into that because we've heard enough about it already.

John_Falstaff

I can only agree with @susmitds - khajiits have been made jacks of all trade, masters of none. I do like the concept of being symmetric between magicka and stamina, but flexibility does not amount to combat power (which was supposed to be made equal between classes).

Merlian

weedgenius

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Re. Imperial, is there a reason why their 12% health boost went to 2k but other classes 10% health boost also went to 2k? why not make Imperial 2.5k?

Hey @Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO just an FYI, I think Gilliam addressed what you're asking in a comment earlier this evening.

Dracane

The magicka loss from Gift of Magnus was bigger than expected. We had calculated that 1500 or so will be lost. I personally have really lost 2k though. Another proof, math isn't always reliable here.

All my elemental damage has dropped by a 100 on tooltips. The added spell damage to elemental talent can't compensate for this loss. While all of this isn't the end of the world, being weakened again isn't a good feeling.

Brrrofski

Latios wrote: »

Brrrofski wrote: »

BaylorCorvette wrote: »

I think Orc is in a fairly decent place. I still feel like the flat value health and stamina should be increased to 1k. 500 is almost nothing and feels like a real waste of a whole racial passive.

Also the 380 heal from Unflinching is super underwhelming. I rather just see that removed and the Stamina return increased to something like 500-700 Stamina. A 190 heal every 4 seconds in Cyrodiil is only useful if you stub your toe and need relief.

It really needs to increase from 500 each to 1k each.

Orc lost 12% overall stats and gained 1k overall stats

Other races like altmer, redguard and Breton lost 10% overall stats and gained 2k stats overall

Basically this. Give Orcs a little more in flat stats and they'll be pretty nice!

Especially when you compare it to a dark elf.

They get more Stam and health plus magica. They get some flame resistance and resistant to burning effect.

They both get the same weapon damage.

Instead orc has a kind of crappy sustain (if you continuously stay offensive which you can't in pvp) and healing tool (which will be terrible in PvP) and Sprint speed/reduced cost. That last passive is kinda meh and situational as you're usually snared 90% of the time in pvp these days. It also goes against the resource return passive as you're mainly going to use it as an escape or position adjustment tool.

I know which one I'd choose.

Azyle1

I cannot get onto the PTS until tomorrow, but how are Khajiits (stam) when compared to the other races?

Matthros

I compared the fully buffed stats of my Dark Elf Stam DK on Live and on the new PTS.

Running blue max/stamina food I lost 707 stamina but gained 395 weapon damage.

He is using golded out Relequin non-perfected, Briarheart, Selenes, and an infused VMA bow with weapon dmg enchant.

I am overall pleased with the change to his race so far stam wise.

I would have to re-roll him back to a Mag DK to test that out to see how much the 7% fire damage loss affects him.

LaurenIsAwkward

I find it a little disheartening that my orc is going to be out-DPS'd by dark elves of all races.

Khajiits I'm happy have a place as magicka users now.

Dark elves, I think, have had some backwards changes and I feel like I am going to be forced to race change to Altmer or Breton in order to do decent damage next patch on my sorc.

Imperials feel kind of like watered down nords now (nords are AWESOME with these changes) and don't feel very unique. I also don't like the RNG associated with their health return. Imperials I feel should get some sort of magicka bonus (whether its in stats or return) as they are another versatile race known for having many warriors and mages.

killmove

Argonians are ugly who cares....

ezio45

Only issue i have with the new racials are darkelf and khajiit

Darkelf is just highelf or redguard with less sustain and resources. I feel like upping darkelfs resources pools would make it a good trade off for stam builds that need more mag or mag builds that need more stam. As of right now though i dont think the trade off is worth it.

Khajiit, I like it. It is a good option for high crit playstyles, both mag or stam. really need to up the regen tho

WIZZARD2K

Dalsinthus wrote: »

While I like the changes to wood elves overall, I am very disappointed to see the removal of the stealth passive and addition of a stealth detection passive.

1.) Stealthiness has been part of wood elf lore in the elder scrolls series. It was a primary reason that I play the race.

2.) the developer notes for this change suggest that stealth gameplay is niche, but the replacement ability - stealth detection - is considerably more niche and will see little use in game.

Please revert this change or rethink the changes to stealth passives.

100% second this. Stealthy wood elf is my favorite "fun" thing to do around Tamriel. I have zero desire for pvp passives. Please stop ruining PVE for the sake of PVP. Detection and Roll Dodge? Roll Dodge is unreliable in PVE content, since you can't count on the game considering you out of danger (I've tried to roll out of red, no more!).
Unless you're adding some stealth npcs around Tamriel, requiring me to PVP to make use of my replacement ability seems unfair.

Azyle1

ezio45 wrote: »

Only issue i have with the new racials are darkelf and khajiit

Darkelf is just highelf or redguard with less sustain and resources. I feel like upping darkelfs resources pools would make it a good trade off for stam builds that need more mag or mag builds that need more stam. As of right now though i dont think the trade off is worth it.

Khajiit, I like it. It is a good option for high crit playstyles, both mag or stam. really need to up the regen tho

@ezio45

Khajiit still seem strong for stam dps?