PTS Update 21 - Feedback Thread for Racial Passive Changes

Tommy_The_Gun

Silver_Strider wrote: »

So Argonian is just worthless for everything now? *Sigh*

Yep... unfortunately... yes

CurvedSwords123

Alaya wrote: »

Wow, way to listen to your players, ZOS, way to go. Really appreciate you reading through and talking with your design teams about suggestions that ACTUAL players give over anything else. Oh wait, I forgot, this is a cash grab and this is Zo$. /s

The way I'm seeing it, these changes are going to go live and they're just going to get worse and worse for some of these beloved races.

Way to kill my favorite race in my favorite game Zo$.

I'll voice my concerns but they won't get READ.

Khajiit and Redguard are already the strongest stamina PvErs around and you just make them stronger, we get it, you like cats and the Yokudans. And then you make Bosmer the most useless of races (again) with your changes. What we see here isn't balance, what we see here is pigeonholing.

Again, I'm not a PvPer, I've always been on the PvE side of things, I don't care if I'm not BiS, that's not my goal, my goal of playing this game is to entertain myself and enjoy it and watch others who enjoy it as much as I do. Bosmer passives do not make much sense at all as they are. I've been playing this game for FOUR years and now you're telling me I need to grab a set if I want to be stealthy while stealing now on my favorite race because I don't want to play a cat, I didn't roll a cat for it, I rolled a nimble little cheeky wood elf. And then you give us this dodge roll bull that no one asked for, and can practically be achieved with the most useless set in the game.

Give us the 3m stealthy bonus back, change the immunity to snares to wood elves (or give us back our disease resistance), and change that roll dodge thing to maybe give us critical abilities instead of penetration.

What are you basing your claim from? Redguards are no longer the strongest at anything. Khajits and Orcs have most damage potential and are far more versatile.

https://youtu.be/u1iXKjHY5u0

Redguards have no toughness and are now bound to WEP skills (crap ultimates/only attractive for Stamsorcs and stamdks). We're going to lack scaling from the new cp benefits. That snare reduction is going to have no material effect in the PvP slow meta.

BlueRaven

CurvedSwords123 wrote: »

Alaya wrote: »

Wow, way to listen to your players, ZOS, way to go. Really appreciate you reading through and talking with your design teams about suggestions that ACTUAL players give over anything else. Oh wait, I forgot, this is a cash grab and this is Zo$. /s

The way I'm seeing it, these changes are going to go live and they're just going to get worse and worse for some of these beloved races.

Way to kill my favorite race in my favorite game Zo$.

I'll voice my concerns but they won't get READ.

Khajiit and Redguard are already the strongest stamina PvErs around and you just make them stronger, we get it, you like cats and the Yokudans. And then you make Bosmer the most useless of races (again) with your changes. What we see here isn't balance, what we see here is pigeonholing.

Again, I'm not a PvPer, I've always been on the PvE side of things, I don't care if I'm not BiS, that's not my goal, my goal of playing this game is to entertain myself and enjoy it and watch others who enjoy it as much as I do. Bosmer passives do not make much sense at all as they are. I've been playing this game for FOUR years and now you're telling me I need to grab a set if I want to be stealthy while stealing now on my favorite race because I don't want to play a cat, I didn't roll a cat for it, I rolled a nimble little cheeky wood elf. And then you give us this dodge roll bull that no one asked for, and can practically be achieved with the most useless set in the game.

Give us the 3m stealthy bonus back, change the immunity to snares to wood elves (or give us back our disease resistance), and change that roll dodge thing to maybe give us critical abilities instead of penetration.

What are you basing your claim from? Redguards are no longer the strongest at anything. Khajits and Orcs have more damage potential and are far more versatile.

https://youtu.be/u1iXKjHY5u0

Redguards have no toughness and are now bound to WEP skills.

I think you missed the point they were trying to make. It's not about the relative strength of Redguards per se. It's that Bosmers have a poorly designed passive. (Which I agree with, the passive is poorly designed.) Don't take this as an attack on Redguards.

CurvedSwords123

BlueRaven wrote: »

CurvedSwords123 wrote: »

Alaya wrote: »

Wow, way to listen to your players, ZOS, way to go. Really appreciate you reading through and talking with your design teams about suggestions that ACTUAL players give over anything else. Oh wait, I forgot, this is a cash grab and this is Zo$. /s

The way I'm seeing it, these changes are going to go live and they're just going to get worse and worse for some of these beloved races.

Way to kill my favorite race in my favorite game Zo$.

I'll voice my concerns but they won't get READ.

Khajiit and Redguard are already the strongest stamina PvErs around and you just make them stronger, we get it, you like cats and the Yokudans. And then you make Bosmer the most useless of races (again) with your changes. What we see here isn't balance, what we see here is pigeonholing.

Again, I'm not a PvPer, I've always been on the PvE side of things, I don't care if I'm not BiS, that's not my goal, my goal of playing this game is to entertain myself and enjoy it and watch others who enjoy it as much as I do. Bosmer passives do not make much sense at all as they are. I've been playing this game for FOUR years and now you're telling me I need to grab a set if I want to be stealthy while stealing now on my favorite race because I don't want to play a cat, I didn't roll a cat for it, I rolled a nimble little cheeky wood elf. And then you give us this dodge roll bull that no one asked for, and can practically be achieved with the most useless set in the game.

Give us the 3m stealthy bonus back, change the immunity to snares to wood elves (or give us back our disease resistance), and change that roll dodge thing to maybe give us critical abilities instead of penetration.

What are you basing your claim from? Redguards are no longer the strongest at anything. Khajits and Orcs have more damage potential and are far more versatile.

https://youtu.be/u1iXKjHY5u0

Redguards have no toughness and are now bound to WEP skills.

I think you missed the point they were trying to make. It's not about the relative strength of Redguards per se. It's that Bosmers have a poorly designed passive. (Which I agree with, the passive is poorly designed.) Don't take this as an attack on Redguards.

I don't mean to be attacking Bosmers either. I VEHEMENTLY disagree with the premise that ZOS have buffed Redguards, we have recieved a strong nerf based on relativity with the other races. I agree with Alcast. I'm just advocating for the race I play like everyone else is man. And for the record, yes I agree the Bosmers passive is poorly designed. I've mentioned that in previous posts.

GrumpyDuckling

Dearest ZOS,

Bosmer are AGILE (Definition: "Marked by ready ability to move with quick easy grace")
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/agile

Bosmer agility isn't about moving at a top speed that is faster than other races, it's about how they are ready to perform quick movements (see: roll dodge) more easily and with grace. It doesn't make sense to give Bosmer an increase in overall movement speed when they perform a dodge roll -- that's not how agility works -- it would make much more sense to give them a reduced cost for dodge roll because they are able to perform agile movements (again, see: dodge roll) more easily than other races.

Here are the reasons why you make this change:
1) It makes sense (I shouldn't have to go beyond this, but I will).
2) It doesn't introduce PVP problems of movement speed.
3) It can be used in both PVP and PVE.
4) It's enough of a nerf to the current PTS version of Hunter's Eye that it allows you to add a flat, balanced, permanent bonus to Penetration (which makes perfect sense -- Bosmer are hunters and should excel at targeting their opponents weak spots in their armor).

Thanks for taking the time to read this and seriously consider it for the next round of PTS.
Love,
GrumpyDuckling

BlueRaven

CurvedSwords123 wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

CurvedSwords123 wrote: »

Alaya wrote: »

Wow, way to listen to your players, ZOS, way to go. Really appreciate you reading through and talking with your design teams about suggestions that ACTUAL players give over anything else. Oh wait, I forgot, this is a cash grab and this is Zo$. /s

The way I'm seeing it, these changes are going to go live and they're just going to get worse and worse for some of these beloved races.

Way to kill my favorite race in my favorite game Zo$.

I'll voice my concerns but they won't get READ.

Khajiit and Redguard are already the strongest stamina PvErs around and you just make them stronger, we get it, you like cats and the Yokudans. And then you make Bosmer the most useless of races (again) with your changes. What we see here isn't balance, what we see here is pigeonholing.

Again, I'm not a PvPer, I've always been on the PvE side of things, I don't care if I'm not BiS, that's not my goal, my goal of playing this game is to entertain myself and enjoy it and watch others who enjoy it as much as I do. Bosmer passives do not make much sense at all as they are. I've been playing this game for FOUR years and now you're telling me I need to grab a set if I want to be stealthy while stealing now on my favorite race because I don't want to play a cat, I didn't roll a cat for it, I rolled a nimble little cheeky wood elf. And then you give us this dodge roll bull that no one asked for, and can practically be achieved with the most useless set in the game.

Give us the 3m stealthy bonus back, change the immunity to snares to wood elves (or give us back our disease resistance), and change that roll dodge thing to maybe give us critical abilities instead of penetration.

What are you basing your claim from? Redguards are no longer the strongest at anything. Khajits and Orcs have more damage potential and are far more versatile.

https://youtu.be/u1iXKjHY5u0

Redguards have no toughness and are now bound to WEP skills.

I think you missed the point they were trying to make. It's not about the relative strength of Redguards per se. It's that Bosmers have a poorly designed passive. (Which I agree with, the passive is poorly designed.) Don't take this as an attack on Redguards.

I don't mean to be attacking Bosmers either. I'm just advocating for the race I play like everyone else is man. And for the record, yes I agree the Bosmers passive is poorly designed. I've mentioned that in previous posts.

Fair enough!

CurvedSwords123

BlueRaven wrote: »

CurvedSwords123 wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

CurvedSwords123 wrote: »

Alaya wrote: »

Wow, way to listen to your players, ZOS, way to go. Really appreciate you reading through and talking with your design teams about suggestions that ACTUAL players give over anything else. Oh wait, I forgot, this is a cash grab and this is Zo$. /s

The way I'm seeing it, these changes are going to go live and they're just going to get worse and worse for some of these beloved races.

Way to kill my favorite race in my favorite game Zo$.

I'll voice my concerns but they won't get READ.

Khajiit and Redguard are already the strongest stamina PvErs around and you just make them stronger, we get it, you like cats and the Yokudans. And then you make Bosmer the most useless of races (again) with your changes. What we see here isn't balance, what we see here is pigeonholing.

Again, I'm not a PvPer, I've always been on the PvE side of things, I don't care if I'm not BiS, that's not my goal, my goal of playing this game is to entertain myself and enjoy it and watch others who enjoy it as much as I do. Bosmer passives do not make much sense at all as they are. I've been playing this game for FOUR years and now you're telling me I need to grab a set if I want to be stealthy while stealing now on my favorite race because I don't want to play a cat, I didn't roll a cat for it, I rolled a nimble little cheeky wood elf. And then you give us this dodge roll bull that no one asked for, and can practically be achieved with the most useless set in the game.

Give us the 3m stealthy bonus back, change the immunity to snares to wood elves (or give us back our disease resistance), and change that roll dodge thing to maybe give us critical abilities instead of penetration.

What are you basing your claim from? Redguards are no longer the strongest at anything. Khajits and Orcs have more damage potential and are far more versatile.

https://youtu.be/u1iXKjHY5u0

Redguards have no toughness and are now bound to WEP skills.

I think you missed the point they were trying to make. It's not about the relative strength of Redguards per se. It's that Bosmers have a poorly designed passive. (Which I agree with, the passive is poorly designed.) Don't take this as an attack on Redguards.

I don't mean to be attacking Bosmers either. I'm just advocating for the race I play like everyone else is man. And for the record, yes I agree the Bosmers passive is poorly designed. I've mentioned that in previous posts.

Fair enough!

Right on bro. Good luck to all of us. This game is going to change drastically next patch

Twohothardware

The Imperial change today was welcomed for sure but it would be a lot better if the cost decrease could be bumped to 4% and then get rid of that pointless 333 health on damage every 5 seconds. After Battle Spirit in Cyrodiil how are you suppose to benefit AT ALL from 166 health every 5 seconds?

Razorback174

So, tell me if I've got this right.

Bosmer are still stuck with a clunky passive that does nothing in PvE. (Hawk's Eye)
(Seriously, this is more of an active skill than a passive. It needs a hard rework.)

Altmer are still stuck with a lore-shattering passive that restores a resource they never use. (Spell Recharge)
(It's got SPELL in the name for god's sake!!)

How long until this goes live? Is there still any hope of getting this absolute trash fixed? I've got 5 bosmer and 4 altmer characters, so this patch may possibly kill more than half of my characters in one fell swoop.

zaria

Finedaible wrote: »

Regarding patch 4.3.3:

"Feline Ambush: Reworked the 8% Spell and Weapon Critical Strike Chance to 10% Critical Damage and Critical Healing."
I do not like this change to Khajiit at all. Khajiit were the only ones who could get semi-reliable crit setups, and are now subject to more RNG shenanigans for their DPS and healing with this change. More crit dmg and healing is nice, but it's very volatile, and not as reliable as the buff to crit chance was. This change also further shoehorns Khajiit into two classes, Nightblade and Templar, which is not a healthy thing for diversity. Just give Khajiit the passives from patch 4.3.2, but take their health recovery away, and buff stam/magicka recovery and leave it at that.

"Hunter's Eye: Increased the duration to 6 seconds from 4 seconds. This is to make up for the buff applying immediately as you Roll Dodge."
Seriously, no rework of the underwhelming Bosmer roll-dodge passive? Literally all players are telling you guys it's utterly trash.

Just stop making random-ass changes and stick to player opinions. It feels like staff is throwing darts at a spinning wheel while blind-folded at this point. Is flippin' Sheogorath calling the shots behind the scenes?

I can't endure this insanity for much longer.

ESO balace team prefer to focus on AoE damage.

Truthsnark

Bosmer player here who wants her stealth back, please. This change is utterly stupid and I cannot believe it has not been reverted yet.

silvereyes

silvereyes wrote: »

I did some testing on PTS to compare the speed bonuses/sprint cost reduction of Orcs Swift Warrior passive vs Bosmer's Hunter's Eye roll dodge speed boost passive, to see how they handled and which I preferred.

[snip]

Race Results

• Orc time: 18 seconds, every time
• Bosmer time: 17 seconds, every time

silvereyes wrote: »

I just re-tested the same exact retreat sprint for Bosmer on PTS v4.3.2. The overall race results didn't really change, even with the nerf to Hunter's Eye to 10% speed boost. I'm sure it was a fraction of a second slower, but well within a margin of error with executing my dodge rolls at the right time.

Bosmer time (Hunter's Eye PTS v4.3.2): 17 seconds, every time.

I guess this kind of makes sense. Sprinting alone is a 40% boost, and Hasty Retreat adds another 30%. The difference between 190% movement speed (PTS v4.3.0) and 180% movement speed (PTS v4.3.2) is somewhat unnoticeable in the time spans dictated by a normal stamina pool, especially since 20-25% of your time is spent rolling instead of sprinting.

Just re-tested the same escape sprint for PTS v4.3.3 with the 6 second duration buff on Hunter's Eye. Same results, 17 seconds every time.

Contribution of Hunter's Eye to escape speed PTS v4.3.2 = 10% / 180% * 75% uptime = 4.16% total speed
Contribution of Hunter's Eye to escape speed PTS v4.3.3 = 10% / 180% * 80% uptime = 4.44% total speed
Difference = 0.28% total speed

I've calculated with 80% uptime, since you'll still want to roll again before your Hasty Retreat 30% Major Expedition bonus expires.

@ZOS_Gilliam, Hunter's Eye is still a really terrible passive, in my view. The whole thing needs to be scrapped and recreated with something that benefits both PvE and PvP. The 4.3.3 change was pretty pointless. Having Hunter's Eye last 6 seconds after starting a dodge roll instead of 4 seconds should make the penetration part easier to use in PvP I guess, but it makes negligible difference in running, and it doesn't fix the core problems with the passive.

The whole idea of a roll-dodge passive in general is pretty misguided, I think. By design, rolling is an expensive, defensive mechanic reserved for infrequent use.

There are only a few item sets that can even make dodging into something offense-oriented (Eternal Hunt, Senche's Bite, Way of Air). Making a racial passive that only benefits builds that utilize one of these sets seems too narrowly focused.

Eiron77

Racial
Updated the character creation screen to reflect the recent changes to racial passives in their lore text section.
Wood Elf
Hunter's Eye: Increased the duration to 6 seconds from 4 seconds. This is to make up for the buff applying immediately as you Roll Dodge.

So... ZOS completely ignored 95% of the feedback in this thread about the Hunter's Eye passive for Wood Elf. I would ask what the point of this thread even is?

ZOS.. you've designed a racial that most players won't even bother putting skill points in; after taking away a racial (Stealthy) that most picked Wood Elves for, in order to make a racial that is more beneficial to a larger playerbase. See the circular logic here?

dangutang

Chiming in to say: please revert Khajiit changes to crit chance boost instead of crit damage bonus. It just doesn't feel right with what the game has established the khajiit bring to the table. For as long as I can remember khajiits could achieve the highest crit chance, with (what I think are) fair tradeoffs of lower sustain and max resources. This felt particularly right as it felt like a functional "flavor" racial, and meshed well with the sort of personalities often seen in khajiit characters: sometimes a bit bumbling, but competent, and lucky (...like cats, I guess).

What really stinks about this is that they don't even have the best crit damage, even with their racial boost (as nsmurfer showed) . It kind of feels like the khajiit's are losing their specialty.

It would be great to see what the team's goals were when making the change. Was it to tune their damage down a bit? Why not just tone down the crit chance boost a little? Whatever your goals are, is there a way to achieve them while allowing khajiits to keep this aspect?

(Also, please make bosmer sneaky again. I honestly kind of dislike them and have never rolled one, but it just stinks to only have one race with a sneak bonus. I would very much resent feeling I had to roll one particular race to make an optimized sneaky character.)




Edit to share something positive: I love the breton changes! I've played one in every other TES game because they always had (in my opinion) the best magicka racials in that they felt more balanced. This just didn't feel like it was translated into ESO before, but it does now. So thanks for improving bretons

Dalsinthus

Eiron77 wrote: »

Racial
Updated the character creation screen to reflect the recent changes to racial passives in their lore text section.
Wood Elf
Hunter's Eye: Increased the duration to 6 seconds from 4 seconds. This is to make up for the buff applying immediately as you Roll Dodge.

So... ZOS completely ignored 95% of the feedback in this thread about the Hunter's Eye passive for Wood Elf. I would ask what the point of this thread even is?

ZOS.. you've designed a racial that most players won't even bother putting skill points in; after taking away a racial (Stealthy) that most picked Wood Elves for, in order to make a racial that is more beneficial to a larger playerbase. See the circular logic here?

I so agree with you. The feedback on bosmer has been really consistent and ZOS has ignored it. I really resent ZOS for making this change but it seems like they don’t care. I have given up on them fixing this. I hate to ditch my bosmer but I’m going to change them when this goes live.

Also how tf is orc being left in its current state? Best stam damage plus extra tankiness is somehow balanced?

DarkerDreams

I know it's pretty much worthless at this point as it's become obvious ZOS dev team is dead set on giving bosmers the most worthless passive ever. Their bonus before this was pretty much a niche thing, good for PvP ganking and stealing. Instead of balancing races to make them more useful as they repeatedly claim to want to do, they are dead set on making bosmers even more of a niche pvp build giving every one even less of a reason to choose them over another race. At this point in the PTS cycle there's little hope of a change now but I'll ask one more time.

PLEASE, PLEASE ZOS DON"T LET THIS GO LIVE. There's so many better things you could do here. Countless suggestions have been posted that are both lore abiding and not op. Why go with something almost every single player has told you is crap......

Toc de Malsvi

dangutang wrote: »

Chiming in to say: please revert Khajiit changes to crit chance boost instead of crit damage bonus. It just doesn't feel right with what the game has established the khajiit bring to the table. For as long as I can remember khajiits could achieve the highest crit chance, with (what I think are) fair tradeoffs of lower sustain and max resources. This felt particularly right as it felt like a functional "flavor" racial, and meshed well with the sort of personalities often seen in khajiit characters: sometimes a bit bumbling, but competent, and lucky (...like cats, I guess).

What really stinks about this is that they don't even have the best crit damage, even with their racial boost (as nsmurfer showed) . It kind of feels like the khajiit's are losing their specialty.

It would be great to see what the team's goals were when making the change. Was it to tune their damage down a bit? Why not just tone down the crit chance boost a little? Whatever your goals are, is there a way to achieve them while allowing khajiits to keep this aspect?

(Also, please make bosmer sneaky again. I honestly kind of dislike them and have never rolled one, but it just stinks to only have one race with a sneak bonus. I would very much resent feeling I had to roll one particular race to make an optimized sneaky character.)




Edit to share something positive: I love the breton changes! I've played one in every other TES game because they always had (in my opinion) the best magicka racials in that they felt more balanced. This just didn't feel like it was translated into ESO before, but it does now. So thanks for improving bretons

You post, as far as khajits are concerned, is based on misinformation. Please go re-read those threads, the given data did not accurately account for minor vulnerability.

Vapirko

DarkerDreams wrote: »

I know it's pretty much worthless at this point as it's become obvious ZOS dev team is dead set on giving bosmers the most worthless passive ever. Their bonus before this was pretty much a niche thing, good for PvP ganking and stealing. Instead of balancing races to make them more useful as they repeatedly claim to want to do, they are dead set on making bosmers even more of a niche pvp build giving every one even less of a reason to choose them over another race. At this point in the PTS cycle there's little hope of a change now but I'll ask one more time.

PLEASE, PLEASE ZOS DON"T LET THIS GO LIVE. There's so many better things you could do here. Countless suggestions have been posted that are both lore abiding and not op. Why go with something almost every single player has told you is crap......

At this point 6 seconds of move speed and 1500 pen is hardly niche for PvP. Do you have any idea how well this is going to synergies with the exploiter passive and sets like senche, truth, and eternal hunt? Someones already figured out a rotation for PvE based on dodge rolls, which Ill admit is a bit silly, it will appeal to some and not at all to others, but for PvP they are very solid. Especially for stamina NBs which is primarily what that race was used for.

kojou

On the changes for 4.3.3

I think that imperial made a move in the right direction. I don't know if it is enough to make me want to create one, but it seems usable now.

Bosmer utility passive isn't as bad as it was. 6 seconds of movement speed is actually pretty good. I am still pretending like the penetration passive doesn't exist, but at least it might increase my damage if I have to roll dodge during a trash pull. I would rather have 1000 health on my Bosmer though...

Speaking of 1000 health, the Orcs still have a stand out passive IMO. Having that along with 2k stamina and the standard WD passive is too much, unless they give it to Altmer too. It would still put them a bit over all the other Stamina oriented races, but at least there would be precedent since there would be a similarly equipped magicka race.

Altmer's utility passives feel pretty weak... the 5% damage reduction while channeling isn't enough to matter, and the stamina regen will be nice on my PvP Templar, but my PvE Nightblade and Sorc only really get Magicka and Spell Damage. There is nothing that really sets the Altmer apart and makes me glad I have an Altmer for my build.

I'm still a little bummed about what you did with Dunmer's fire damage, but I am past it and ready to turn my DK into a Breton now.

Toc de Malsvi

Vapirko wrote: »

DarkerDreams wrote: »

I know it's pretty much worthless at this point as it's become obvious ZOS dev team is dead set on giving bosmers the most worthless passive ever. Their bonus before this was pretty much a niche thing, good for PvP ganking and stealing. Instead of balancing races to make them more useful as they repeatedly claim to want to do, they are dead set on making bosmers even more of a niche pvp build giving every one even less of a reason to choose them over another race. At this point in the PTS cycle there's little hope of a change now but I'll ask one more time.

PLEASE, PLEASE ZOS DON"T LET THIS GO LIVE. There's so many better things you could do here. Countless suggestions have been posted that are both lore abiding and not op. Why go with something almost every single player has told you is crap......

At this point 6 seconds of move speed and 1500 pen is hardly niche for PvP. Do you have any idea how well this is going to synergies with the exploiter passive and sets like senche, truth, and eternal hunt? Someones already figured out a rotation for PvE based on dodge rolls, which Ill admit is a bit silly, it will appeal to some and not at all to others, but for PvP they are very solid. Especially for stamina NBs which is primarily what that race was used for.

First that rotation is a joke, they did 26k dps. It is not a "bit silly" it is purely comedy.

Second yes it will be pretty good for medium stamina builds in PVP.

Third, while this works well with many of my personal builds, I think ZOS really missed the chance to create more diversity in the races. This passive is virtually worthless for a mag build in PVP, while the other two are somewhat useful for mag in PVP however not at all in PVE.

These passives really push Bosmer more into Medium Stam builds, which they were doing fine in already. They do not need this passive to be a good medium stam build setup.

TL/DR: I agree its not useless but lets not tout a joke as anything legitimate.

Alaya

CurvedSwords123 wrote: »

What are you basing your claim from? Redguards are no longer the strongest at anything. Khajits and Orcs have most damage potential and are far more versatile.

https://youtu.be/u1iXKjHY5u0

Redguards have no toughness and are now bound to WEP skills (crap ultimates/only attractive for Stamsorcs and stamdks). We're going to lack scaling from the new cp benefits. That snare reduction is going to have no material effect in the PvP slow meta.

I hadn't checked the whole thing out, but I'd seen several posts about it from before.

twing1_

Finedaible wrote: »

Regarding patch 4.3.3:

"Feline Ambush: Reworked the 8% Spell and Weapon Critical Strike Chance to 10% Critical Damage and Critical Healing."
I do not like this change to Khajiit at all. Khajiit were the only ones who could get semi-reliable crit setups, and are now subject to more RNG shenanigans for their DPS and healing with this change. More crit dmg and healing is nice, but it's very volatile, and not as reliable as the buff to crit chance was. This change also further shoehorns Khajiit into two classes, Nightblade and Templar, which is not a healthy thing for diversity. Just give Khajiit the passives from patch 4.3.2, but take their health recovery away, and buff stam/magicka recovery and leave it at that.

"Hunter's Eye: Increased the duration to 6 seconds from 4 seconds. This is to make up for the buff applying immediately as you Roll Dodge."
Seriously, no rework of the underwhelming Bosmer roll-dodge passive? Literally all players are telling you guys it's utterly trash.

Just stop making random-ass changes and stick to player opinions. It feels like staff is throwing darts at a spinning wheel while blind-folded at this point. Is flippin' Sheogorath calling the shots behind the scenes?

I can't endure this insanity for much longer.

From a mathematical perspective, the added crit bonus actually gives more benefit to classes that do not already have added bonuses to crit damage (all EXCEPT for nb and temp). This actually helps to stabilize Khajit dps across all the classes.

dangutang

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

You post, as far as khajits are concerned, is based on misinformation. Please go re-read those threads, the given data did not accurately account for minor vulnerability.

The numbers he reported showed a 9.3% increase for dunmer over khajiit. Even if dunmer was benefitting from minor vulnerability, that leaves an (admittedly measly) 1.3% making my catman feel bad. Still, yeah, not a good test and definitely needs a revisit.

And even if the whole thing is bunk, it has nothing to do with my other point concerning khajiits. Please go re-read my post ;P

Vapirko

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

DarkerDreams wrote: »

I know it's pretty much worthless at this point as it's become obvious ZOS dev team is dead set on giving bosmers the most worthless passive ever. Their bonus before this was pretty much a niche thing, good for PvP ganking and stealing. Instead of balancing races to make them more useful as they repeatedly claim to want to do, they are dead set on making bosmers even more of a niche pvp build giving every one even less of a reason to choose them over another race. At this point in the PTS cycle there's little hope of a change now but I'll ask one more time.

PLEASE, PLEASE ZOS DON"T LET THIS GO LIVE. There's so many better things you could do here. Countless suggestions have been posted that are both lore abiding and not op. Why go with something almost every single player has told you is crap......

At this point 6 seconds of move speed and 1500 pen is hardly niche for PvP. Do you have any idea how well this is going to synergies with the exploiter passive and sets like senche, truth, and eternal hunt? Someones already figured out a rotation for PvE based on dodge rolls, which Ill admit is a bit silly, it will appeal to some and not at all to others, but for PvP they are very solid. Especially for stamina NBs which is primarily what that race was used for.

First that rotation is a joke, they did 26k dps. It is not a "bit silly" it is purely comedy.

Second yes it will be pretty good for medium stamina builds in PVP.

Third, while this works well with many of my personal builds, I think ZOS really missed the chance to create more diversity in the races. This passive is virtually worthless for a mag build in PVP, while the other two are somewhat useful for mag in PVP however not at all in PVE.

These passives really push Bosmer more into Medium Stam builds, which they were doing fine in already. They do not need this passive to be a good medium stam build setup.

TL/DR: I agree its not useless but lets not tout a joke as anything legitimate.

I don’t think Bosmers are supposed to be magicka oriented. I have no idea why the spell pen. In PvP though this passive is no longer a joke at all. 1500 pen should amount to a decent damage boost making this passive quite good for stamina NBs. A six second timer is a good sized window. Yes it is pushing them firmly into a medium stamina build but this strikes me as vastly more useful than 10% damage from stealth.

PvE it is a joke. This is not what I expected from a balance pass for Bosmer.

IlCanis_LupuslI

Plz revert the khajiit changes back to 4.3.2
Crit damage may be nice for raids but are utterly useless on pvp builds who because of impenetrable don't spec into having high crit ratios.
@ZOS_Gilliam

sionIV

Imperial changes in 4.3.3 are a step in the right direction.

Pevey

Imperials still are underpowered and have no niche. There is no good reason to keep an imperial or roll a new one.

The 3% is too small to care, the argonian-lite resource return is too small to care and not controllable like it is for argonian. The resource pool advantage is not as high as it was for imperials. Imperials still are no good for anything.

I’d prefer the resource return back to a higher amount just for health, like it was. And cost reduction for all-rounder is ok as an idea, but 3% is laughable. Bretons get 7%. Yes, reduction for imperial is for “all the things” but no one cares about that, we use Magicka or stamina for dps, one or the other. That’s the way this game is designed.

Toc de Malsvi

Vapirko wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

DarkerDreams wrote: »

I know it's pretty much worthless at this point as it's become obvious ZOS dev team is dead set on giving bosmers the most worthless passive ever. Their bonus before this was pretty much a niche thing, good for PvP ganking and stealing. Instead of balancing races to make them more useful as they repeatedly claim to want to do, they are dead set on making bosmers even more of a niche pvp build giving every one even less of a reason to choose them over another race. At this point in the PTS cycle there's little hope of a change now but I'll ask one more time.

PLEASE, PLEASE ZOS DON"T LET THIS GO LIVE. There's so many better things you could do here. Countless suggestions have been posted that are both lore abiding and not op. Why go with something almost every single player has told you is crap......

At this point 6 seconds of move speed and 1500 pen is hardly niche for PvP. Do you have any idea how well this is going to synergies with the exploiter passive and sets like senche, truth, and eternal hunt? Someones already figured out a rotation for PvE based on dodge rolls, which Ill admit is a bit silly, it will appeal to some and not at all to others, but for PvP they are very solid. Especially for stamina NBs which is primarily what that race was used for.

First that rotation is a joke, they did 26k dps. It is not a "bit silly" it is purely comedy.

Second yes it will be pretty good for medium stamina builds in PVP.

Third, while this works well with many of my personal builds, I think ZOS really missed the chance to create more diversity in the races. This passive is virtually worthless for a mag build in PVP, while the other two are somewhat useful for mag in PVP however not at all in PVE.

These passives really push Bosmer more into Medium Stam builds, which they were doing fine in already. They do not need this passive to be a good medium stam build setup.

TL/DR: I agree its not useless but lets not tout a joke as anything legitimate.

I don’t think Bosmers are supposed to be magicka oriented. I have no idea why the spell pen. In PvP though this passive is no longer a joke at all. 1500 pen should amount to a decent damage boost making this passive quite good for stamina NBs. A six second timer is a good sized window. Yes it is pushing them firmly into a medium stamina build but this strikes me as vastly more useful than 10% damage from stealth.

PvE it is a joke. This is not what I expected from a balance pass for Bosmer.

Don't get me wrong, I thinks it is vastly more useful than the old passive. This is the racial passive rebalancing though and pushing any race totally into one thing is a pretty bad move.

Orc's are very solid for ANY stam build.
Bretons are very solid for ANY mag build.

Altimer are reliable for any mag build, with a small offstat return reliance on class skill based.

Redguard is solid for Weapon based stam.
Bosmer is solid for Medium armor builds, with a greater bonus for roll based stam.

The other races all have dual balanced passives that are mostly as good for stam as for mag.

I feel the mag based equivalents are more open ended, while the stam based racials are more narrow focused. And there is a big miss when it comes to making "any race any class" a more realistic statement. The only place the balancing looks to be alright is within segregated stam/mag dps tiers. Even there, there is a third tier of support races that are pretty far behind.

zaria

IlCanis_LupuslI wrote: »

Plz revert the khajiit changes back to 4.3.2
Crit damage may be nice for raids but are utterly useless on pvp builds who because of impenetrable don't spec into having high crit ratios.
@ZOS_Gilliam

Why no dev comment on such an radical change?

MartiniDaniels

zaria wrote: »

IlCanis_LupuslI wrote: »

Plz revert the khajiit changes back to 4.3.2
Crit damage may be nice for raids but are utterly useless on pvp builds who because of impenetrable don't spec into having high crit ratios.
@ZOS_Gilliam

Why no dev comment on such an radical change?

I agree this needs to be reverted, dps or not, another race-defining feature was replaced by something generic, anybody can have.
I anytime prefer almost guaranteed crits against less guaranteed but stronger crits.