4.1.2 Rune cage change is a joke.

Raudgrani

Agree. Typically this is combined with stuff like Meteor or whatever. Yesterday, I was like a fraction of a second from getting nuked by a Meteor outside Bruma, because I was standing on my knees after being caged. The stun needs to be reworked, and be like other CC's.

code65536

How about this?

1. Rework frags
   • Give instant cast and reduced cost proc to Crystal Frags, Crystal Blast, and whatever the base skill is.
   • Remove the increased damage from the instant cast proc
   • Give Frags its stun back (but now without the increased damage)
   • Keep Blast's AoE damage, but remove its stun (so now it has an instant cast proc, but doesn't stun)
   • Now we have two equally-attractive morphs; the PvE sorc will want Blast for the added AoE damage (whereas before, nobody in their right mind would want to use Blast), and the PvP sorc will want Frags for the CC, but without the bonus damage, it wouldn't be as OP as it used to be
2. Make Rune Prison and Rune Cage melee-range abilities, much like the DK's, and revert all other changes made to Rune Cage during this PTS cycle.

What would this fix?

1. Crystal Blast will be actually useful.
2. Rune Cage keeps its 5s duration, unblockability and undodgeability, but is now a short-range CC. That's a good tradeoff for the raw power of that 5s, unblockable, unreflectable, undodgeable CC.
3. Sorcs get back their old long-ranged CC--which was more balanced than Rune Cage because it was blockable/dodgeable/reflectable. But now without the damage bonus.

Everyone's happy, right? @ZOS_Wrobel

Sandman929

We keep going on for pages and pages, but I think what most people would really like for Rune Cage and every other CC is for CC breaking to work well.

Feanor

@code65536

Nerfing Frags damage even further and a CC with 8m range? Yes, everyone would be happy but the Sorcs, and they would drop Rune Cage and possibly Frags for something else. It’s pre CWC with an even worse Frags.

pieratsos

DDuke wrote: »

Why, because it rewards you for good positioning & requires some skill to utilize?

No, because 1.5s is simply not enough time to turn around after a "self root" and land ur combo even if ur opponent doesnt break it. Yes it is very useful, its a good defensive cc and it does pressure roll dodge builds but using it as ur main offensive cc to land ur combos is really not that good because of the way it operates. It can also become extremely costly the more you use it. And yes casting it more than once every 4 seconds is very normal when you rely on it defensively, offensively and for repositioning. Thats simply how streak cc works. Its more of a defensive cc, mobility tool and reveal NBs mechanic. Not a land ur combo cc.

DDuke wrote: »

If it doesn't kill, then you either hit a tank build with it or you somehow managed to hit buttons in wrong order.

Again, massive l2p issue if you can't one shot a non-tank with it (and even most tanks) before they can react:
https://youtu.be/NhH3-fOLMeU

No, its not a l2p issue. Your video of showcasing how broken rune cage can potentially be, does nothing but showing ur own bias. Im sorry but cyrodiil open world is not a bunch of target dummies sitting still waiting for you to land ur combo. Yes rune cage is broken in the way it operates but this fairytale of sorcs running around one shotting everyone with their ridiculously easy combos is just that. A fairytale.

When it comes to ur 2gcd snipe combo out of stealth when people dont even know that you are there and u dont have to bother with defense and stuff it somehow takes skill and it can fail because ur opponents are moving and its open world and u have to position urself and u have to aim it etc, but when it comes to 4gcd sorc combo when they are taking a beating, casting shields, buffs, roll dodging, positioning and opponents moving, its always a l2p issue. Makes sense right? Noooot.

And the term tank can have a lot of different meanings depending on the class you play. Yes the issues of sorcs against tanks are not as big as they were before summerset because dmg is simply too high now so imo removing rune cage dmg will not put it to pre summerset state for that reason so it will still be used and will still be broken. However this doesnt change the fact that sorcs dont have defiles and dots. For balanced sorc builds investing into sustain and survivability even a simple 25k hp build with troll king can become a "tank". Not that unusual scenario is it?

DDuke wrote: »

Except you don't get "disrupted" by snipe while dodge rolling and take only half the damage of a RC combo. It is very different.

Except you do get disrupted by a snipe or even a simple light attack out of sneak which stuns you and disrupts ur entire combo. Or even a simple stun out of nowhere. Or even simply getting attacked from someone else in a normal open world scenario and you have to go back to defense. Yeah, you know, those scenarios do happen against sorcs too. They dont have immunity to dmg or any form of cc.

I mean when it comes to that you can always just look at ur own arguments.

DDuke wrote: »

You think requiring 500 ultimate is a big downside? Think again, there's always going to be that one sorc who shows up with full ultimate and ruins your day.

DDuke wrote: »

I'm not interested in the consistency of bad experiences, I'm interested in the existence of bad experiences. They shouldn't exist, period.

You think a random rune cage with 500 ult a big downside and disrupts u and making ur experience bad. Well try a random NB spamming shieldbreaker. Yeah that happens too, more consistently with a lot less skill required than a full rune cage 500 meteor ult curse frag fury combo.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

The inmates are officially running the Asylum...

The change has been to revert the recent buff with Summerset. Full Stop. NOBODY was complaining about RC last patch.

DDuke

pieratsos wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Why, because it rewards you for good positioning & requires some skill to utilize?

No, because 1.5s is simply not enough time to turn around after a "self root" and land ur combo even if ur opponent doesnt break it. Yes it is very useful, its a good defensive cc and it does pressure roll dodge builds but using it as ur main offensive cc to land ur combos is really not that good because of the way it operates. It can also become extremely costly the more you use it. And yes casting it more than once every 4 seconds is very normal when you rely on it defensively, offensively and for repositioning. Thats simply how streak cc works. Its more of a defensive cc, mobility tool and reveal NBs mechanic. Not a land ur combo cc.

Yet sorcs used it effectively back in the days before RC nonsense (or Master Reach) and still do.

It doesn't let you land your entire freaking burst guaranteed, and that's precisely why it's a balanced CC.


You don't need to land all your burst in a single GCD in order to kill dodge rollers.

pieratsos wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

If it doesn't kill, then you either hit a tank build with it or you somehow managed to hit buttons in wrong order.

Again, massive l2p issue if you can't one shot a non-tank with it (and even most tanks) before they can react:
https://youtu.be/NhH3-fOLMeU

No, its not a l2p issue. Your video of showcasing how broken rune cage can potentially be, does nothing but showing ur own bias. Im sorry but cyrodiil open world is not a bunch of target dummies sitting still waiting for you to land ur combo. Yes rune cage is broken in the way it operates but this fairytale of sorcs running around one shotting everyone with their ridiculously easy combos is just that. A fairytale.

Actually I'm showing a fairly favourable scenario where the victim has all the time in the world to set up defensive buffs & get heals active before the combo lands.

In a regular Cyrodiil scenario where I'm outnumbered it's even easier for sorcs to burst me since I'm likely taking damage from other sources as well and none of those skills can be avoided - and it's not like you can pressure a sorc hiding behind some gap closer & Incap spamming snarebots (especially on a bow build)

pieratsos wrote: »

When it comes to ur 2gcd snipe combo out of stealth when people dont even know that you are there and u dont have to bother with defense and stuff it somehow takes skill and it can fail because ur opponents are moving and its open world and u have to position urself and u have to aim it etc, but when it comes to 4gcd sorc combo when they are taking a beating, casting shields, buffs, roll dodging, positioning and opponents moving, its always a l2p issue. Makes sense right? Noooot.

The thing with Rune Cage burst is that it doesn't fail - it hits you no matter where you're moving and doesn't care whether you're blocking or dodging.

My burst with bow only lands if opponent isn't dodging, isn't outside LOS and for me to deal any significant damage with it my target also must be exactly between 15-20m for Asylum Bow buff & within Bombard AoE cone. Oh, and target must not be blocking or have a dmg shield up if I want to get a kill.

And it still deals less damage than the no-brainer Rune Cage combo that's more or less guaranteed to land.

pieratsos wrote: »

And the term tank can have a lot of different meanings depending on the class you play. Yes the issues of sorcs against tanks are not as big as they were before summerset because dmg is simply too high now so imo removing rune cage dmg will not put it to pre summerset state for that reason so it will still be used and will still be broken. However this doesnt change the fact that sorcs dont have defiles and dots. For balanced sorc builds investing into sustain and survivability even a simple 25k hp build with troll king can become a "tank". Not that unusual scenario is it?

"dmg is simply too high now so imo removing rune cage dmg will not put it to pre summerset state for that reason so it will still be used and will still be broken" <- this is exactly what I've been saying for the past few pages of this thread.

No, sorcs don't have defiles & DoTs, but they're not the only ones having issues with tank builds - most builds struggle against meta tanks atm.


As I've mentioned before, it'd be great if sorcs had a better way of dealing with tanks: like a dodgeable Rune Cage that dealt more damage than it currently does and/or put a DoT on target. Or just moving some DoT damage to other skills.

It is kinda rock/paper/scissors though - I've come to accept that builds like DKs with wings will always be strong against my bow build & I tend to just avoid them. As a sorc you have the same option with Streak/BoL (though I do wish it also removed snares/roots).


I can't kill them (solo) & they're extremely unlikely to kill me - that's how it tends to be with tank builds.

pieratsos wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Except you don't get "disrupted" by snipe while dodge rolling and take only half the damage of a RC combo. It is very different.

Except you do get disrupted by a snipe or even a simple light attack out of sneak which stuns you and disrupts ur entire combo. Or even a simple stun out of nowhere. Or even simply getting attacked from someone else in a normal open world scenario and you have to go back to defense. Yeah, you know, those scenarios do happen against sorcs too. They dont have immunity to dmg or any form of cc.

I mean when it comes to that you can always just look at ur own arguments.

Look again at what I wrote: "you don't get 'disrupted' by snipe while dodge rolling".

I was responding to Feanor who somehow thought most of the complaints are because people get "disrupted" by Rune Cage while dodge rolling and then proceeded to form some kind of a false equivalence with Snipe disrupting people - completely ignoring the fact that snipe doesn't "disrupt" anyone who is dodging or blocking like Rune Cage does.

pieratsos wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

You think requiring 500 ultimate is a big downside? Think again, there's always going to be that one sorc who shows up with full ultimate and ruins your day.

DDuke wrote: »

I'm not interested in the consistency of bad experiences, I'm interested in the existence of bad experiences. They shouldn't exist, period.

You think a random rune cage with 500 ult a big downside and disrupts u and making ur experience bad. Well try a random NB spamming shieldbreaker. Yeah that happens too, more consistently with a lot less skill required than a full rune cage 500 meteor ult curse frag fury combo.

Yes, but atleast you get a chance to react to those shield breaker light attack spamming gimped NBs.

Dodge roll will negate literally all their attacks and Healing Ward spam can outheal those Shield Breakers for a while, which gives you time to:

1. counter burst the Shield Breaker spammer (unless they're wearing a tank set, they die to RC combos)
2. find LOS or allies
3. Streak/BoL away (again, I do hope they increase sorc mobility by allowing them to get rid of snares/roots better)

DDuke

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

The inmates are officially running the Asylum...

The change has been to revert the recent buff with Summerset. Full Stop. NOBODY was complaining about RC last patch.

Nobody complained about RC before Summerset because burst damage across the board hadn't gone up yet due to 2H & Light Attack changes resulting in Sorc burst exceeding players' maximum health pools (the 9-10k tooltip to Rune Cage certainly helped).

This patch they're (apparently) removing that 9-10k tooltip, but similar to Light Attack/2H changes they're also making other changes that increase sorc burst (i.e. Balorgh monster set) which means we are back in square one and there's every reason to keep complaining.

Also, in the future every time ZOS adds an item set that increases maximum burst in any way it'll reflect directly back to Rune Cage, as that allows the highest burst damage combo in the game to land guaranteed.


They need to get rid of one of 3 things:

1. Undodgeability
2. Unblockability
3. 1s delay before stun lands, which allows Frag to land at the same time as all the other burst (Meteor, Curse, Light Attacks etc)

pieratsos

@DDuke

1. No they didnt. Frag was the main offensive cc. The only combo streak used to be reliable with was meteor to drop block and force land it. And that combo was reliable not because of streak being a reliable offensive cc but because of meteor being delayed allowing you to land it without having to turn around after a self root to do ur entire combo. Know the difference. Also, key word is back in the day. Back in the day we didnt have tanks everywhere either and you didnt need ults to kill people. Back in the day sorcs were tanking zergs with one hand scratching their ****, shields lasted a million years, and they were actually one shotting people with or without ult. Not just because of rune cage. But we dont live in 2015 or 2016 anymore.

2. Balanced cc doesnt make it a good offensive reliable cc. Huge difference. There are plenty of stuns in this game that are balanced but not reliable offensively because of the way they operate. Like the other morph of mass hysteria which i have no clue what its even called. Frag cc was the main sorc offensive cc before master reach and it was also balanced cause it had counters.

3.Key word, when you are outnumbered. Newsflash. Sorcs get outnumbered too. Whats up with this. When we are talking about you its always a messy outnumbered scenario but when we are talking about sorcs its always a controlled environment and they never get attacked by anyone? Ok then, according to your logic then ur snipe combo is braindead easy and you have massive l2p issues if you fail to land it cause when im outnumbered there is always going to come that NB out of stealth with that combo and gank me while im fighting other people.

4. Rune cage doesnt fail when you manage to get the entire combo. Thats why i said potential. However, the fairytale of sorcs running around throwing that entire combo left right and center every few seconds killing anyone they want whenever they want is exactly that. A fairytale. In an actual PVP scenario when you are outnumbered and stuns, siege, ganks and everything flying around you, you quickly come to realize that timing 5 different skills isnt that easy anymore. Not because its difficult to actually perform that combo. But because of the chaotic situation you may find your self in. Exactly like your combo and exactly like the vast majority of combos if not all of them regardless of class.

5.Feanor's point is actually prety obvious. He said that the frustration of rune cage is mostly because of the situation you are actually describing. Being outnumbered in a chaotic situation and then out of nowhere you get hit by a random combo with rune cage. And he compared it with getting hit by a snipe from stealth as a sorc and dying before you even break free. Or any other similar frustrating situation you can come across in a 1vX.

6. Yes i get a chance to react to those shieldbreakers. Especially when outnumbered which is prety much always. I get the chance to see a potato that doesnt even know the basics of this game melting me by sitting 30 meters away and spamming left click. Totally not ruining my experience. Sorry, but Id much rather getting hit by a full rune cage combo with that set and instadie before even realising what happened. At least then ill know that i died to at least a semi decent player being able to beat a DLC dungeon and knowing PVP and sorc mechanics enough to be able to time 5 different skills together.

7. This is the most important part and ill bold it. I didnt defend rune cage. In fact the majority of sorcs arguing with you have also expressed their disdain for rune cage and how broken it is. Their argument with you is about your blatant bias when it comes to the class and your ridiculous assessments about how they need to l2p.

DDuke

pieratsos wrote: »

@DDuke

1. No they didnt. Frag was the main offensive cc. The only combo streak used to be reliable with was meteor to drop block and force land it. And that combo was reliable not because of streak being a reliable offensive cc but because of meteor being delayed allowing you to land it without having to turn around after a self root to do ur entire combo. Know the difference. Also, key word is back in the day. Back in the day we didnt have tanks everywhere either and you didnt need ults to kill people. Back in the day sorcs were tanking zergs with one hand scratching their ****, shields lasted a million years, and they were actually one shotting people with or without ult. Not just because of rune cage. But we dont live in 2015 or 2016 anymore.

Streak was the main CC most sorcs used against me, because I'd just dodge roll all their attempts of throwing a Frag at my face for CC.


It meant sorcs had limited amount of burst vs non-tank builds due to dodge roll, while they still kept most of their burst and pressure against tankier targets that weren't able to dodge roll those frags.


And that's how it should be, none of this Rune Cage bull***.

pieratsos wrote: »

2. Balanced cc doesnt make it a good offensive reliable cc. Huge difference. There are plenty of stuns in this game that are balanced but not reliable offensively because of the way they operate. Like the other morph of mass hysteria which i have no clue what its even called. Frag cc was the main sorc offensive cc before master reach and it was also balanced cause it had counters.

What makes you think you should have "reliable CC" on the class with highest burst damage in the game?

Landing CCs should require skill, like Manifestation of Terror (the trap morph of fear) which I actually consider the better morph of the skill since it lets you bypass GCD should you manage to get someone to step into your trap (meaning it enables burst to land faster and lets you kill skilled players who CC Break+dodge fast, unlike the other morph).


Frag with CC also wasn't reliable (being dodgeable/blockable) and that's the only thing that made it and sorcs balanced.

pieratsos wrote: »

3.Key word, when you are outnumbered. Newsflash. Sorcs get outnumbered too. Whats up with this. When we are talking about you its always a messy outnumbered scenario but when we are talking about sorcs its always a controlled environment and they never get attacked by anyone? Ok then, according to your logic then ur snipe combo is braindead easy and you have massive l2p issues if you fail to land it cause when im outnumbered there is always going to come that NB out of stealth with that combo and gank me while im fighting other people.

Big difference: sorcs have 30k shield stacks to hide behind to prevent getting instagibbed by things like Rune Cage combos (or Snipe, which deals less damage).

When I get Rune Caged on a medium stamblade, I'm just as squishy as a sorc without shields and about to get hit by the highest damage burst in the entire game.


And no, I'm not saying dmg shields are "op" or anything - I'm saying dodge roll is too weak as a defensive mechanic because of Rune Cage.

pieratsos wrote: »

4. Rune cage doesnt fail when you manage to get the entire combo. Thats why i said potential. However, the fairytale of sorcs running around throwing that entire combo left right and center every few seconds killing anyone they want whenever they want is exactly that. A fairytale. In an actual PVP scenario when you are outnumbered and stuns, siege, ganks and everything flying around you, you quickly come to realize that timing 5 different skills isnt that easy anymore. Not because its difficult to actually perform that combo. But because of the chaotic situation you may find your self in. Exactly like your combo and exactly like the vast majority of combos if not all of them regardless of class.

Hitting buttons in a certain order and getting a guaranteed kill isn't easy? Tell that to the 4376854 sorcs currently getting easymode kills in BGs/open world.


Either all skilled players have somehow concentrated on the sorc class, or there's something awry...

pieratsos wrote: »

5.Feanor's point is actually prety obvious. He said that the frustration of rune cage is mostly because of the situation you are actually describing. Being outnumbered in a chaotic situation and then out of nowhere you get hit by a random combo with rune cage. And he compared it with getting hit by a snipe from stealth as a sorc and dying before you even break free. Or any other similar frustrating situation you can come across in a 1vX.

There is no comparison to any other scenario you can come across in a 1vX.

Rune Cage combo is harder to avoid, deals more damage & much, much more common than anything else out there.

pieratsos wrote: »

6. Yes i get a chance to react to those shieldbreakers. Especially when outnumbered which is prety much always. I get the chance to see a potato that doesnt even know the basics of this game melting me by sitting 30 meters away and spamming left click. Totally not ruining my experience. Sorry, but Id much rather getting hit by a full rune cage combo with that set and instadie before even realising what happened. At least then ill know that i died to at least a semi decent player being able to beat a DLC dungeon and knowing PVP and sorc mechanics enough to be able to time 5 different skills together.

So dying to someone spamming light attacks at you over an extended period of time is somehow worse than being instagibbed by completely unavoidable burst?

I'm sorry, but if you can't come up with a solution over the 5+ seconds it takes for Shield Breaker user to kill you through shields, then that Shield Breaker user (who has gimped his build to specifically be strong against dmg shields) probably deserves that kill.

I can think of over a dozen variations of how I'd deal with that situation, but I think I already listed the best options in previous post.


Also, I'd assume hope you don't have much trouble with these builds in a 1v1 scenario.

Guess what kills you whether you're 1v1 or 1vX or XvX and leaves you no time to formulate a response? Rune Cage combo.

pieratsos wrote: »

7. This is the most important part and ill bold it. I didnt defend rune cage. In fact the majority of sorcs arguing with you have also expressed their disdain for rune cage and how broken it is. Their argument with you is about your blatant bias when it comes to the class and your ridiculous assessments about how they need to l2p.

Really? Here's some of this famous "disdain" from this thread alone:

The counter play is to break free like you do with every other hard CC.

What is the purpose of this thread if you don't bring anything interesting ?

There is already a thousand nerf rune cage thread going at the same times:
They reduced the damage by 20% but with 4.1.2 they removed the damage ( It only deals damage if the stun lasts for its full duration... ). because there is a thousand thread going on the same issue and nobody agree on what make rune cage OP.

As a DK I think rune cage is fine. Rune Cage was originally changed when sorc's lost CC of frags almost a year ago, several top tier sorcs were using it then and no one complained. Sorcs are ranged, they have a ranged unblockable cc, fits with the class. Sorry not sorry

The thing is, rune cage is the last counter to rolly polly stamblade.
If it become dodgeable, stamblade would be god mode more than never.

Imo, the changes should be still does damage, but reduce the CC to 3sec instead of 5

I main magplar btw, rune cage is annoying for sure, but I don't want to see nightblade rolly polly godmode.
Rolly polly took an indirect buff by the Sload changes being a projectile, and they were already at the top of the food chain

lmao, the majority of the posts in this thread alone are people defending the Rune Cage without any actual facts or math to back up their arguments. Just regurgitating the same "I hate stamblades, I deserve free kills on them" bull*** in different forms.

IAVITNI

DDuke wrote: »

So you have 20k health pool with 17 634 Spell Resistance (27%) with Major Ward active in noCP.

I have almost the same on my bowblade & it's unsurvivable. Here's why:
Sorc tooltip burst without Meteor in proper gear: 38 259
Sorc penetration: 12 264

38 259-(50%[Battle Spirit]*8,112%[17634-12 264])=17 577 damage


That drops potatoes to 2423 health, which means you're either dead to Fury or you're just... dead if you were below 100% health when combo went off.

No Meteors involved & that's actually not even counting Rune Cage damage (as I just took numbers from my previous noCP burst calculation accounting the removal of RC damage).


It's not rocket science.

Fixed it for you. Great math if Susan buys 40 watermelons at the grocery. Again subtract Vigor and Rally/FM ticks.

Let me clarify some things.

1. You seem upset so I'm not going point for point anymore--it's convoluting the discussion. For instance I never said I stack health on sorc. And you bash Magelight despite it providing more burst max stat than the two health glyphs I slotted on my stamblade in order to "[join] the "stack bleeds & sloads to get kills" when prior to Rune Cage sorcs had a very flexible flex skill.
2. the "advocate broken mechanic" thing was a typo. I wrote my last post at work and was tabbing in and out due to boss walking in etc. You are correct in your assessment regarding that part--to an extent.
3. I think the meta's and definitions of terms we have are too different. I'd hardly consider a CP 22k health and 20k incap a "health stacking tank Sloads bleed build" But apparently that's what my stamblade is to you. Oh and it runs a 2h Sword and back bar master bow so I have 0 bleeds.

The point I am trying to make is this:

Overnerfing Rune Cage results in a loss of burst damage as well as sustained pressure (pressure=/damage).

Sorc burst without Rune damage and Meteor is not high enough to 100%-0% the average player with an active defence (i.e. vigor, shields, cleanse, wings, etc). With Meteor, yes it can kill a lot of people but so can a PI+Dizzy+DB+executioner. Both have their strengths and weaknesses.

Removing the damage but maintaining functionality still leaves sorc with competitive pressure. Without the threat of the CC, sorc pressure falls back to Force Shock spam.

So if Rune Cage CC is to be removed (which it should be, unblockable CC isn't what a sorc needs against tanks and having unblockable/unavoidable damage and CC on 1 class is too much) there needs to be a counter buff to accommodate for the significant loss of burst and pressure.

DDuke wrote: »

IAVITNI wrote: »

Magsorc is also the only class that doesn't have a defensive mechanism that scales with numbers.

1v1 yes shields are strong--and I think shields need to be looked at--but they are not a perfect universal defense.

Last I checked, every class was capable of dodge rolling/blocking. It's a matter of how you build your character, just like I've built my magicka DK to do almost zero blocking (destro/resto) & have a shield based defense like sorcs.

And it still does just fine in PvP.

So you're saying I can increase my survivability based on how I choose to build my character?

And not trying to offend you. I think you're an intelligent player and I enjoy your play style. I just think you tend to show a bias to it regarding anything that counters your preferred build. In this case, your examples include math that looks accurate but overstates the power of magsorc without Rune damage because you deal slightly too much with the theoretical.

DDuke

IAVITNI wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

So you have 20k health pool with 17 634 Spell Resistance (27%) with Major Ward active in noCP.

I have almost the same on my bowblade & it's unsurvivable. Here's why:
Sorc tooltip burst without Meteor in proper gear: 38 259
Sorc penetration: 12 264

38 259-(50%[Battle Spirit]*8,112%[17634-12 264])=17 577 damage


That drops potatoes to 2423 health, which means you're either dead to Fury or you're just... dead if you were below 100% health when combo went off.

No Meteors involved & that's actually not even counting Rune Cage damage (as I just took numbers from my previous noCP burst calculation accounting the removal of RC damage).


It's not rocket science.

Fixed it for you. Great math if Susan buys 40 watermelons at the grocery. Again subtract Vigor and Rally/FM ticks.

Sure, reduce 1,5k Vigor tick from the equation (Rally isn't guaranteed to tick for 800-900 during that period). Still dead.
As seen on the videos I recorded showcasing how even Impreg wearing people with 23k health die to the combo.

Good to know you're a potato though, that explains a lot of things for me.

IAVITNI wrote: »

Let me clarify some things.

1. You seem upset so I'm not going point for point anymore--it's convoluting the discussion. For instance I never said I stack health on sorc. And you bash Magelight despite it providing more burst max stat than the two health glyphs I slotted on my stamblade in order to "[join] the "stack bleeds & sloads to get kills" when prior to Rune Cage sorcs had a very flexible flex skill.

There are always better skills to slot than Inner Light, unless you play a gank build and/or happen to be on Overload bar.

I am going to make wild assumption about your build and say you don't have Elemental Drain slotted for example, which would provide far more damage and 600 "mag regen" worth of sustain, which outperforms Inner Light's +3k magicka.
Just as an example.

I am not upset by the way. "Irritated" would be the right word; it's like when you're explaining something super obvious to people, but apparently it isn't as obvious as you thought so you wind up wasting your time writing forum posts trying to make it obvious enough for people to understand.

That kind of "irritated".

IAVITNI wrote: »

3. I think the meta's and definitions of terms we have are too different. I'd hardly consider a CP 22k health and 20k incap a "health stacking tank Sloads bleed build" But apparently that's what my stamblade is to you. Oh and it runs a 2h Sword and back bar master bow so I have 0 bleeds.

Never said you were. But that's the sort of build that gets blown up by Rune Cage. I'd hate to go over numbers again, you can see them in my previous post.

You can also scroll up & find the recorded video evidence of Rune Cage combo evaporating a medium Impreg build (i.e. tank build) with 23k health (more than you) & Vigor+Rally active and ticking.

IAVITNI wrote: »

The point I am trying to make is this:

Overnerfing Rune Cage results in a loss of burst damage as well as sustained pressure (pressure=/damage).

Sorc burst without Rune damage and Meteor is not high enough to 100%-0% the average player with an active defence (i.e. vigor, shields, cleanse, wings, etc). With Meteor, yes it can kill a lot of people but so can a PI+Dizzy+DB+executioner. Both have their strengths and weaknesses.

Sorc burst without RC & Meteor is still the highest burst damage in the entire game (bar Sorc burst with RC & Meteor). Again, see the numbers.

Could you explain to me how other builds (like my bow build) then easily kill average players even with less burst damage than sorcs have at their disposal and with the damage actually being avoidable?


I'm trying my best, but I really can't quite understand your logic there.

PI+Dizzy+DBOS+Executioner for example is half the damage of a non-Meteor Cage combo.

IAVITNI wrote: »

Removing the damage but maintaining functionality still leaves sorc with competitive pressure. Without the threat of the CC, sorc pressure falls back to Force Shock spam.

Except while the Rune Cage damage is removed, maximum sorc burst is increased with the new Balorgh monster set.

Nothing is solved and nothing will be solved as long as uncounterable 40m CC (with a convenient 1s delay to guaranteed land Frags) exists on a class with highest burst damage in the entire game.

IAVITNI wrote: »

So if Rune Cage CC is to be removed (which it should be, unblockable CC isn't what a sorc needs against tanks and having unblockable/unavoidable damage and CC on 1 class is too much) there needs to be a counter buff to accommodate for the significant loss of burst and pressure.

DDuke wrote: »

IAVITNI wrote: »

Magsorc is also the only class that doesn't have a defensive mechanism that scales with numbers.

1v1 yes shields are strong--and I think shields need to be looked at--but they are not a perfect universal defense.

Last I checked, every class was capable of dodge rolling/blocking. It's a matter of how you build your character, just like I've built my magicka DK to do almost zero blocking (destro/resto) & have a shield based defense like sorcs.

And it still does just fine in PvP.

So you're saying I can increase my survivability based on how I choose to build my character?

It's a risk vs reward difficulty slider if you play a magicka build with dmg shields.

It's a get instagibbed vs play tank slider if you play a stam build.


That is to say, you will always have strong defense against things like Rune Cage on a class that can stack dmg shields to survive it.

What you can do is determine how good you're at keeping your shields up at all times & then doing something like dropping Impenetrable from armor pieces & going Well-Fitted instead to 1vX better (as you're able to use a scaling defense called dodge roll more often).

Stamina builds don't have that luxury because of Rune Cage. You build tanky, or you get instagibbed by RCs. How good you are at dodge rolling or how fast you CC break and react don't matter.


Simply put, that one ability is currently limiting build diversity and denying players from really toying with these "difficulty sliders".

IAVITNI wrote: »

And not trying to offend you. I think you're an intelligent player and I enjoy your play style. I just think you tend to show a bias to it regarding anything that counters your preferred build. In this case, your examples include math that looks accurate but overstates the power of magsorc without Rune damage because you deal slightly too much with the theoretical.

Do you really find it surprising that I would complain about things that make my playstyle (which you claim to enjoy) practically unplayable (i.e. "throw keyboard across the room" kind of frustrating to play) in many situations?


Sorcs are already strong against stamblades even without undodgeable/unblockable CCs - always have been.

They have access to most undodgeable/uncloakable damage in the game (Curse, Fury explosion, Streak) & burst to finish you off should you stop dodge rolling.

I think you're the one understating the power of mSorc without Rune Cage - they already had the best odds of killing a good stamblade before they had a way to guarantee literally all their burst hits them.

OGLezard

KingLogix wrote: »

Dr.NRG wrote: »

Zos clearly stated that this skill is still being worked on during the pts but they need more testing done first. For example they are considering making the skill dogable and more visible inorder to enable counter play. So chillax for!;)

If i got a dollar for everytime I head ZOS was going to fix something, i would have bought them out and made the changes my self -.- jk jk.. but still, I wont rest on this topic until something actually gets changed.

Topic closed then because the damage is only applied if the duration plays out. That is indeed a change. The one everyone wants? Nope, but a change none the less.

/thread

IAVITNI

@DDuke TL;DR: All you need to say is this:

No class should have access to both an unblockable and undodgable CC and unblockable and undodgable damage as it severely limits counterplay.

To which the magsorc reply will be:

Take Rune Cage away, but give us something to compensate for the frag nerf that resulted in a loss of damage, bar space and a GCD because without it sorcs don't have competitive pressure or burst.

That's it. Keep the rest to yourself because it's all a biased perspective.

Just going to ignore your baseless quips. I'm tired of pointing out obvious bias so just gonna leave with this:

DDuke wrote: »

So let's compare.
Shooting Star 14 323+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge])=16 041
Light Attack 3565+(40%[Empower]+4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge])=5418
Shock Glyph 2534+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge]+5%[Energized])=2964
Rune Cage 0 (for the sake of the argument)
Light Attack 3565+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge])=3992
Frag 12 260+(8%[Ancient Knowledge]+10%[Frag Proc])=14 466
Curse 10574+8%(Ancient Knowledge)=11 419

So going based off your example--on a build that won't work for a real 1vx, (can't do this:)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YONOhPMYqxQ

Including Fury, that's 5 skills, 5 GCDs, 5 seconds. So you're getting a full Vigor during this. We'll remove all but 1 light attacks since I don't want to do the math of Vigor v LA:

total tooltip damage without Meteor is:
Shock Glyph 2534+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge]+5%[Energized])=2964
Rune Cage 0 (for the sake of the argument)
Light Attack 3565+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge])=3992
Frag 12 260+(8%[Ancient Knowledge]+10%[Frag Proc])=14 466
Curse 10574+8%(Ancient Knowledge)=11 419
Well assume Fury=4 000
Total Tooltip damage: 36 883

36 883-(50%[Battle Spirit]*8,112%[17634-12 264])=15 102 damage

That puts you just under 25%. Assuming you know that burst is coming, you're going to pop another vigor around the same time you are tagged with Curse so you'll be getting 1.5 seconds of Vigor. But just add that single 1.5k tick and look. Not in execute range. Pop vigor one more time and Rally and you're back to full health assuming you do more than stand there and take it.

I stand by my statement that the removal of the damage from Rune is a significant nerf to sorc burst. The damage is more important than the CC. Give me that 7k tooltip damage and spread it amongst my Curse Fury and Frag and I'll run no CC except Streak and DB all day. Without the damage on Cage most sorcs will probably go back to DB anyways.

With the current removal of damage from Rune, Sorcs can't kill anything without ultimate. Except glass builds.

I find it surprising that you protect your play style and justify nerfing a whole class solely to protect it. People have pointed out counters--both build and mechanics based and you would rather an entire class be overnerfed without compensation simply to protect your play style as opposed to throw on a Health glyph or two and lose 800 tooltip damage. Meanwhile sorcs just lost 8k tooltip and majority of sorcs aren't complaining about the loss of Cage CC. We almost all want it gone. We just want proper compensation for the over nerf of frags that was slightly alleviated with the damage of Cage.

Damageless cage is the middle ground. A temporary solution until ZoS decides to actually look at class balance. Every level headed sorc was against the Cage changes during last PTS. Right now it's half and half: half wanting it gone and half wanting it to stay ONLY because the class isn't going to receive a counter buff but would still rather have it gone. The only ones genuinely wanting it to stay are meta chasers. I WANT CAGE GONE BUT I WANT SOMETHING IN RETURN SINCE CAGE WAS THE COMPENSATION FOR FRAG NERF.

Remove the whole adversarial "your build v magsorc" from the conversation. It's not necessary.

Idc that your build is hard countered. I do care that 1 class has undodgeable and unblockable CC and damage.

Idc that Rune Cage should be removed. I do care that without it sorc pressure is going to fall off again due to an ill-advised nerf from around 5 patches ago.

I want my class to be balanced, same as you want you bow build to be "balanced".

Banana

Being unable to break free is a royal pain in the ass and a usual death sentence for me.

Feanor

@DDuke

Last thing I’ll say in this thread as it gets extremely tedious (I don’t care if RC gets nerfed or replaced or something, what I care for that there is something useful to compensate for): You always assess everything through your “all out damage no sustain” build philosophy. That’s why your numbers are what they are. A lot of people don’t build that way as they don’t like this “all in” play style that comes very close to a gank setup (not in the play style but in the approach).

People call you out for that because your scenarios are unreal for the majority of people who don’t follow your build pattern. I don’t care any longer if RC is OP or not or gets trashed or buffed. That ZOS discarded the warnings from the Sorc community and still put it into 4.0.5. is telling enough.

I’m quite sure that if it gets trashed there will be no compensation, as usual. And that’s what’s concerning to me.

Sharee

Feanor wrote: »

@DDuke

Last thing I’ll say in this thread as it gets extremely tedious (I don’t care if RC gets nerfed or replaced or something, what I care for that there is something useful to compensate for): You always assess everything through your “all out damage no sustain” build philosophy. That’s why your numbers are what they are.

Actually, that would be a "not being a tank" philosophy. Because only with being a tank would his numbers not "be what they are".

Feanor

@Sharee

Spinners/Destruction Mastery/Slimecraw isn’t a sustain setup. I dare say the numbers would be far lower on the standard Shackle/Lich/Domi/Willpower.

Sharee

Feanor wrote: »

@Sharee

Spinners/Destruction Mastery/Slimecraw isn’t a sustain setup. I dare say the numbers would be far lower on the standard Shackle/Lich/Domi/Willpower.

So? You are getting killed by rune cage combos because you are not a tank, not because you don't have sustain.

Feanor

Sharee wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

@Sharee

Spinners/Destruction Mastery/Slimecraw isn’t a sustain setup. I dare say the numbers would be far lower on the standard Shackle/Lich/Domi/Willpower.

So? You are getting killed by rune cage combos because you are not a tank, not because you don't have sustain.

You talk about the receiving end. I talk about the attacker.

Sharee

Feanor wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

@Sharee

Spinners/Destruction Mastery/Slimecraw isn’t a sustain setup. I dare say the numbers would be far lower on the standard Shackle/Lich/Domi/Willpower.

So? You are getting killed by rune cage combos because you are not a tank, not because you don't have sustain.

You talk about the receiving end. I talk about the attacker.

I see.

You said to Dduke: "You always assess everything through your “all out damage no sustain” build philosophy. That’s why your numbers are what they are. A lot of people don’t build that way as they don’t like this “all in” play style that comes very close to a gank setup"

I naturally assumed you are talking about his build in the above quote, not the attacker's. If that is incorrect then i misunderstood you.

Feanor

Sharee wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

@Sharee

Spinners/Destruction Mastery/Slimecraw isn’t a sustain setup. I dare say the numbers would be far lower on the standard Shackle/Lich/Domi/Willpower.

So? You are getting killed by rune cage combos because you are not a tank, not because you don't have sustain.

You talk about the receiving end. I talk about the attacker.

I see.

You said to Dduke: "You always assess everything through your “all out damage no sustain” build philosophy. That’s why your numbers are what they are. A lot of people don’t build that way as they don’t like this “all in” play style that comes very close to a gank setup"

I naturally assumed you are talking about his build in the above quote, not the attacker's. If that is incorrect then i misunderstood you.

NP.

pieratsos

DDuke wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

@DDuke

1. No they didnt. Frag was the main offensive cc. The only combo streak used to be reliable with was meteor to drop block and force land it. And that combo was reliable not because of streak being a reliable offensive cc but because of meteor being delayed allowing you to land it without having to turn around after a self root to do ur entire combo. Know the difference. Also, key word is back in the day. Back in the day we didnt have tanks everywhere either and you didnt need ults to kill people. Back in the day sorcs were tanking zergs with one hand scratching their ****, shields lasted a million years, and they were actually one shotting people with or without ult. Not just because of rune cage. But we dont live in 2015 or 2016 anymore.

Streak was the main CC most sorcs used against me, because I'd just dodge roll all their attempts of throwing a Frag at my face for CC.


It meant sorcs had limited amount of burst vs non-tank builds due to dodge roll, while they still kept most of their burst and pressure against tankier targets that weren't able to dodge roll those frags.


And that's how it should be, none of this Rune Cage bull***.

pieratsos wrote: »

2. Balanced cc doesnt make it a good offensive reliable cc. Huge difference. There are plenty of stuns in this game that are balanced but not reliable offensively because of the way they operate. Like the other morph of mass hysteria which i have no clue what its even called. Frag cc was the main sorc offensive cc before master reach and it was also balanced cause it had counters.

What makes you think you should have "reliable CC" on the class with highest burst damage in the game?

Landing CCs should require skill, like Manifestation of Terror (the trap morph of fear) which I actually consider the better morph of the skill since it lets you bypass GCD should you manage to get someone to step into your trap (meaning it enables burst to land faster and lets you kill skilled players who CC Break+dodge fast, unlike the other morph).


Frag with CC also wasn't reliable (being dodgeable/blockable) and that's the only thing that made it and sorcs balanced.

pieratsos wrote: »

3.Key word, when you are outnumbered. Newsflash. Sorcs get outnumbered too. Whats up with this. When we are talking about you its always a messy outnumbered scenario but when we are talking about sorcs its always a controlled environment and they never get attacked by anyone? Ok then, according to your logic then ur snipe combo is braindead easy and you have massive l2p issues if you fail to land it cause when im outnumbered there is always going to come that NB out of stealth with that combo and gank me while im fighting other people.

Big difference: sorcs have 30k shield stacks to hide behind to prevent getting instagibbed by things like Rune Cage combos (or Snipe, which deals less damage).

When I get Rune Caged on a medium stamblade, I'm just as squishy as a sorc without shields and about to get hit by the highest damage burst in the entire game.


And no, I'm not saying dmg shields are "op" or anything - I'm saying dodge roll is too weak as a defensive mechanic because of Rune Cage.

pieratsos wrote: »

4. Rune cage doesnt fail when you manage to get the entire combo. Thats why i said potential. However, the fairytale of sorcs running around throwing that entire combo left right and center every few seconds killing anyone they want whenever they want is exactly that. A fairytale. In an actual PVP scenario when you are outnumbered and stuns, siege, ganks and everything flying around you, you quickly come to realize that timing 5 different skills isnt that easy anymore. Not because its difficult to actually perform that combo. But because of the chaotic situation you may find your self in. Exactly like your combo and exactly like the vast majority of combos if not all of them regardless of class.

Hitting buttons in a certain order and getting a guaranteed kill isn't easy? Tell that to the 4376854 sorcs currently getting easymode kills in BGs/open world.


Either all skilled players have somehow concentrated on the sorc class, or there's something awry...

pieratsos wrote: »

5.Feanor's point is actually prety obvious. He said that the frustration of rune cage is mostly because of the situation you are actually describing. Being outnumbered in a chaotic situation and then out of nowhere you get hit by a random combo with rune cage. And he compared it with getting hit by a snipe from stealth as a sorc and dying before you even break free. Or any other similar frustrating situation you can come across in a 1vX.

There is no comparison to any other scenario you can come across in a 1vX.

Rune Cage combo is harder to avoid, deals more damage & much, much more common than anything else out there.

pieratsos wrote: »

6. Yes i get a chance to react to those shieldbreakers. Especially when outnumbered which is prety much always. I get the chance to see a potato that doesnt even know the basics of this game melting me by sitting 30 meters away and spamming left click. Totally not ruining my experience. Sorry, but Id much rather getting hit by a full rune cage combo with that set and instadie before even realising what happened. At least then ill know that i died to at least a semi decent player being able to beat a DLC dungeon and knowing PVP and sorc mechanics enough to be able to time 5 different skills together.

So dying to someone spamming light attacks at you over an extended period of time is somehow worse than being instagibbed by completely unavoidable burst?

I'm sorry, but if you can't come up with a solution over the 5+ seconds it takes for Shield Breaker user to kill you through shields, then that Shield Breaker user (who has gimped his build to specifically be strong against dmg shields) probably deserves that kill.

I can think of over a dozen variations of how I'd deal with that situation, but I think I already listed the best options in previous post.


Also, I'd assume hope you don't have much trouble with these builds in a 1v1 scenario.

Guess what kills you whether you're 1v1 or 1vX or XvX and leaves you no time to formulate a response? Rune Cage combo.

pieratsos wrote: »

7. This is the most important part and ill bold it. I didnt defend rune cage. In fact the majority of sorcs arguing with you have also expressed their disdain for rune cage and how broken it is. Their argument with you is about your blatant bias when it comes to the class and your ridiculous assessments about how they need to l2p.

Really? Here's some of this famous "disdain" from this thread alone:

The counter play is to break free like you do with every other hard CC.

What is the purpose of this thread if you don't bring anything interesting ?

There is already a thousand nerf rune cage thread going at the same times:
They reduced the damage by 20% but with 4.1.2 they removed the damage ( It only deals damage if the stun lasts for its full duration... ). because there is a thousand thread going on the same issue and nobody agree on what make rune cage OP.

As a DK I think rune cage is fine. Rune Cage was originally changed when sorc's lost CC of frags almost a year ago, several top tier sorcs were using it then and no one complained. Sorcs are ranged, they have a ranged unblockable cc, fits with the class. Sorry not sorry

The thing is, rune cage is the last counter to rolly polly stamblade.
If it become dodgeable, stamblade would be god mode more than never.

Imo, the changes should be still does damage, but reduce the CC to 3sec instead of 5

I main magplar btw, rune cage is annoying for sure, but I don't want to see nightblade rolly polly godmode.
Rolly polly took an indirect buff by the Sload changes being a projectile, and they were already at the top of the food chain

lmao, the majority of the posts in this thread alone are people defending the Rune Cage without any actual facts or math to back up their arguments. Just regurgitating the same "I hate stamblades, I deserve free kills on them" bull*** in different forms.

Reliable cc doesn't mean guaranteed cc. Ffs. Is that really so hard to understand. And streak was not the main offensive cc for sorcs. Frags were. Streak was effective against your nb specifically because streak is the main mechanic sorcs use to keep u out of cloak and disrupt ur combo. Like seriously the fact that u can't even realize that shows how little knowledge u have when it comes to the class. Go back and watch ur old video duel between u and the sorc. Watch it carefully to see how the sorc is using streak against you.

And if we are going this way and Sorcs should only have streak cc then how about we entirely delete incap cc, sneak cc, surprise attack cc and mass hysteria. Yeah that would be balanced.

Honestly there is really no point discussing this further with you. You are so biased to the point where it's becoming a meme. Keep believing in fairytales.

Also nice attempt with that list of dumb comments to make ur point. Now u can actually go back to the forums since rune cage became a monster and see the Constructive comments from people who actually know what they are talking about. And then feel free to ask urself why they are all arguing with you if they don't like cage either. Maybe ull realize how stupid some of ur comments are.

DDuke

Just going to ignore your baseless quips. I'm tired of pointing out obvious bias so just gonna leave with this:

DDuke wrote: »

So let's compare.
Shooting Star 14 323+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge])=16 041
Light Attack 3565+(40%[Empower]+4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge])=5418
Shock Glyph 2534+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge]+5%[Energized])=2964
Rune Cage 0 (for the sake of the argument)
Light Attack 3565+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge])=3992
Frag 12 260+(8%[Ancient Knowledge]+10%[Frag Proc])=14 466
Curse 10574+8%(Ancient Knowledge)=11 419

So going based off your example--on a build that won't work for a real 1vx, (can't do this:)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YONOhPMYqxQ

Including Fury, that's 5 skills, 5 GCDs, 5 seconds. So you're getting a full Vigor during this. We'll remove all but 1 light attacks since I don't want to do the math of Vigor v LA:

total tooltip damage without Meteor is:
Shock Glyph 2534+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge]+5%[Energized])=2964
Rune Cage 0 (for the sake of the argument)
Light Attack 3565+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge])=3992
Frag 12 260+(8%[Ancient Knowledge]+10%[Frag Proc])=14 466
Curse 10574+8%(Ancient Knowledge)=11 419
Well assume Fury=4 000
Total Tooltip damage: 36 883

36 883-(50%[Battle Spirit]*8,112%[17634-12 264])=15 102 damage

That puts you just under 25%. Assuming you know that burst is coming, you're going to pop another vigor around the same time you are tagged with Curse so you'll be getting 1.5 seconds of Vigor. But just add that single 1.5k tick and look. Not in execute range. Pop vigor one more time and Rally and you're back to full health assuming you do more than stand there and take it.

You don't have to do the Vigor vs Light Attack math, I already have.

With 3574 weapon dmg & 29 516 stamina (noCP)
Vigor=1244 non-crit, 1866 crit

So let's not pretend it outheals even a regular light attack, let alone a Meteor empowered one which you conveniently omitted.

Going back to the original numbers:
38 259-(50%[Battle Spirit]*8,112%[17634-12 264])=17 577 damage-1244[Vigor]=16 333
38 259-(50%[Battle Spirit]*8,112%[17634-12 264])=17 577 damage-1866[Vigor Crit]=15 711

You would need: 18 853-19 599 health in noCP in order not to fall into execute range if you were at 100% health when the combo landed.

IAVITNI wrote: »

I stand by my statement that the removal of the damage from Rune is a significant nerf to sorc burst. The damage is more important than the CC. Give me that 7k tooltip damage and spread it amongst my Curse Fury and Frag and I'll run no CC except Streak and DB all day. Without the damage on Cage most sorcs will probably go back to DB anyways.

With the current removal of damage from Rune, Sorcs can't kill anything without ultimate. Except glass builds.

Except sorcs have been killing people just fine without Cage since 2014. Sure, tank builds (and I mean tank builds, not medium armor rollers with health glyphs) are a problem, but they're a problem to everyone without bleeds & defiles.

When I see a tank build when playing bowblade, I typically just run away rather than waste time trying to burst something that can't be bursted. That's always an option.


Anyway, I agree that they shouldn't remove the damage from Cage (precisely because of those tank builds), but they should make it dodgeable.

Win-win, sorcs get to keep damage to deal with tanks & builds that rely on dodge roll can still actually use their main defensive mechanic to survive.

IAVITNI wrote: »

I find it surprising that you protect your play style and justify nerfing a whole class solely to protect it. People have pointed out counters--both build and mechanics based and you would rather an entire class be overnerfed without compensation simply to protect your play style as opposed to throw on a Health glyph or two and lose 800 tooltip damage. Meanwhile sorcs just lost 8k tooltip and majority of sorcs aren't complaining about the loss of Cage CC. We almost all want it gone. We just want proper compensation for the over nerf of frags that was slightly alleviated with the damage of Cage.

Again, what "counters"?

Here's all the "just purge it" I've heard about Rune Cage so far:

• Use immovability potion! 45s cooldown, 10s duration
• CC sorc to disrupt combo! Sorcs are a ranged class and ironically no other class/build has access to 40m range unblockable(/undodgeable) CC capable of that and there is no guarantee the sorc doesn't have CC immunity (i.e. from previous burst attempt on the 30k shield stack)
• Use cloak after Curse! Yes, works as long as you have magicka - which is not long on a stamblade (in noCP particularly) and assuming the sorc isn't using det pots

So yes, sorry if I'm not willing to change my entire build & playstyle to accommodate for one broken, overpowered ability in this game.

Tell you what, I'll do that when sorcs & other dmg shield builds also have to build for health as well to survive in PvP. How about that?

That is to say, when all reactive/proactive defensive mechanics are equally *** and all players need high health pools to survive.


Also, I am not saying "nerf the whole class" lmao.

The only real issue with sorc is Rune Cage, nothing else. Other than that they could even use buffs in multiple areas (like mobility), but not in burst or undodgeable damage.

IAVITNI wrote: »

Damageless cage is the middle ground. A temporary solution until ZoS decides to actually look at class balance. Every level headed sorc was against the Cage changes during last PTS. Right now it's half and half: half wanting it gone and half wanting it to stay ONLY because the class isn't going to receive a counter buff but would still rather have it gone. The only ones genuinely wanting it to stay are meta chasers. I WANT CAGE GONE BUT I WANT SOMETHING IN RETURN SINCE CAGE WAS THE COMPENSATION FOR FRAG NERF.

"Cage was the compensation for frag nerf", can I see the source for this statement? That is just your own interpretation of what they did to Cage, not some official move by ZOS.

Also I can promise you there's hundreds (if not thousands) of sorcs right now crutching on Rune Cage & hoping they never remove it because that skill is the only thing that makes them feel like they're good at this game.


It's the same as with all the reroller NBs after the Incap & Merciless/Relentless buffs several patches ago...

IAVITNI wrote: »

Remove the whole adversarial "your build v magsorc" from the conversation. It's not necessary.

Idc that your build is hard countered. I do care that 1 class has undodgeable and unblockable CC and damage.

Idc that Rune Cage should be removed. I do care that without it sorc pressure is going to fall off again due to an ill-advised nerf from around 5 patches ago.

I want my class to be balanced, same as you want you bow build to be "balanced".

Cool.

So they should make the skill dodgeable (but keep it unblockable/unreflectable) & add the damage back in, because sorcs only need that little bit of extra pressure against tank builds and already have best tools in game to deal with dodge rollers.

DDuke

pieratsos wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

@DDuke

1. No they didnt. Frag was the main offensive cc. The only combo streak used to be reliable with was meteor to drop block and force land it. And that combo was reliable not because of streak being a reliable offensive cc but because of meteor being delayed allowing you to land it without having to turn around after a self root to do ur entire combo. Know the difference. Also, key word is back in the day. Back in the day we didnt have tanks everywhere either and you didnt need ults to kill people. Back in the day sorcs were tanking zergs with one hand scratching their ****, shields lasted a million years, and they were actually one shotting people with or without ult. Not just because of rune cage. But we dont live in 2015 or 2016 anymore.

Streak was the main CC most sorcs used against me, because I'd just dodge roll all their attempts of throwing a Frag at my face for CC.


It meant sorcs had limited amount of burst vs non-tank builds due to dodge roll, while they still kept most of their burst and pressure against tankier targets that weren't able to dodge roll those frags.


And that's how it should be, none of this Rune Cage bull***.

pieratsos wrote: »

2. Balanced cc doesnt make it a good offensive reliable cc. Huge difference. There are plenty of stuns in this game that are balanced but not reliable offensively because of the way they operate. Like the other morph of mass hysteria which i have no clue what its even called. Frag cc was the main sorc offensive cc before master reach and it was also balanced cause it had counters.

What makes you think you should have "reliable CC" on the class with highest burst damage in the game?

Landing CCs should require skill, like Manifestation of Terror (the trap morph of fear) which I actually consider the better morph of the skill since it lets you bypass GCD should you manage to get someone to step into your trap (meaning it enables burst to land faster and lets you kill skilled players who CC Break+dodge fast, unlike the other morph).


Frag with CC also wasn't reliable (being dodgeable/blockable) and that's the only thing that made it and sorcs balanced.

pieratsos wrote: »

3.Key word, when you are outnumbered. Newsflash. Sorcs get outnumbered too. Whats up with this. When we are talking about you its always a messy outnumbered scenario but when we are talking about sorcs its always a controlled environment and they never get attacked by anyone? Ok then, according to your logic then ur snipe combo is braindead easy and you have massive l2p issues if you fail to land it cause when im outnumbered there is always going to come that NB out of stealth with that combo and gank me while im fighting other people.

Big difference: sorcs have 30k shield stacks to hide behind to prevent getting instagibbed by things like Rune Cage combos (or Snipe, which deals less damage).

When I get Rune Caged on a medium stamblade, I'm just as squishy as a sorc without shields and about to get hit by the highest damage burst in the entire game.


And no, I'm not saying dmg shields are "op" or anything - I'm saying dodge roll is too weak as a defensive mechanic because of Rune Cage.

pieratsos wrote: »

4. Rune cage doesnt fail when you manage to get the entire combo. Thats why i said potential. However, the fairytale of sorcs running around throwing that entire combo left right and center every few seconds killing anyone they want whenever they want is exactly that. A fairytale. In an actual PVP scenario when you are outnumbered and stuns, siege, ganks and everything flying around you, you quickly come to realize that timing 5 different skills isnt that easy anymore. Not because its difficult to actually perform that combo. But because of the chaotic situation you may find your self in. Exactly like your combo and exactly like the vast majority of combos if not all of them regardless of class.

Hitting buttons in a certain order and getting a guaranteed kill isn't easy? Tell that to the 4376854 sorcs currently getting easymode kills in BGs/open world.


Either all skilled players have somehow concentrated on the sorc class, or there's something awry...

pieratsos wrote: »

5.Feanor's point is actually prety obvious. He said that the frustration of rune cage is mostly because of the situation you are actually describing. Being outnumbered in a chaotic situation and then out of nowhere you get hit by a random combo with rune cage. And he compared it with getting hit by a snipe from stealth as a sorc and dying before you even break free. Or any other similar frustrating situation you can come across in a 1vX.

There is no comparison to any other scenario you can come across in a 1vX.

Rune Cage combo is harder to avoid, deals more damage & much, much more common than anything else out there.

pieratsos wrote: »

6. Yes i get a chance to react to those shieldbreakers. Especially when outnumbered which is prety much always. I get the chance to see a potato that doesnt even know the basics of this game melting me by sitting 30 meters away and spamming left click. Totally not ruining my experience. Sorry, but Id much rather getting hit by a full rune cage combo with that set and instadie before even realising what happened. At least then ill know that i died to at least a semi decent player being able to beat a DLC dungeon and knowing PVP and sorc mechanics enough to be able to time 5 different skills together.

So dying to someone spamming light attacks at you over an extended period of time is somehow worse than being instagibbed by completely unavoidable burst?

I'm sorry, but if you can't come up with a solution over the 5+ seconds it takes for Shield Breaker user to kill you through shields, then that Shield Breaker user (who has gimped his build to specifically be strong against dmg shields) probably deserves that kill.

I can think of over a dozen variations of how I'd deal with that situation, but I think I already listed the best options in previous post.


Also, I'd assume hope you don't have much trouble with these builds in a 1v1 scenario.

Guess what kills you whether you're 1v1 or 1vX or XvX and leaves you no time to formulate a response? Rune Cage combo.

pieratsos wrote: »

7. This is the most important part and ill bold it. I didnt defend rune cage. In fact the majority of sorcs arguing with you have also expressed their disdain for rune cage and how broken it is. Their argument with you is about your blatant bias when it comes to the class and your ridiculous assessments about how they need to l2p.

Really? Here's some of this famous "disdain" from this thread alone:

The counter play is to break free like you do with every other hard CC.

What is the purpose of this thread if you don't bring anything interesting ?

There is already a thousand nerf rune cage thread going at the same times:
They reduced the damage by 20% but with 4.1.2 they removed the damage ( It only deals damage if the stun lasts for its full duration... ). because there is a thousand thread going on the same issue and nobody agree on what make rune cage OP.

As a DK I think rune cage is fine. Rune Cage was originally changed when sorc's lost CC of frags almost a year ago, several top tier sorcs were using it then and no one complained. Sorcs are ranged, they have a ranged unblockable cc, fits with the class. Sorry not sorry

The thing is, rune cage is the last counter to rolly polly stamblade.
If it become dodgeable, stamblade would be god mode more than never.

Imo, the changes should be still does damage, but reduce the CC to 3sec instead of 5

I main magplar btw, rune cage is annoying for sure, but I don't want to see nightblade rolly polly godmode.
Rolly polly took an indirect buff by the Sload changes being a projectile, and they were already at the top of the food chain

lmao, the majority of the posts in this thread alone are people defending the Rune Cage without any actual facts or math to back up their arguments. Just regurgitating the same "I hate stamblades, I deserve free kills on them" bull*** in different forms.

Reliable cc doesn't mean guaranteed cc. Ffs. Is that really so hard to understand. And streak was not the main offensive cc for sorcs. Frags were. Streak was effective against your nb specifically because streak is the main mechanic sorcs use to keep u out of cloak and disrupt ur combo. Like seriously the fact that u can't even realize that shows how little knowledge u have when it comes to the class. Go back and watch ur old video duel between u and the sorc. Watch it carefully to see how the sorc is using streak against you.

...and how many of those "reliable" Frags do you see land on me?

Yes, Streak has multiple uses (can disrupt combos as well). Thanks for reinforcing my point about it being a good CC vs dodge rollers.

pieratsos wrote: »

And if we are going this way and Sorcs should only have streak cc then how about we entirely delete incap cc, sneak cc, surprise attack cc and mass hysteria. Yeah that would be balanced.

Incap CC, by all means - burn it.

Incap enables deadly burst combos that require zero skill to land, it's literally two button clicks to burst most of the players in the game.


I think them making it CC again (at 120 ultimate) was a bad change & it would've worked better with the health percentage system, but we'll see... I would've rather liked to see ZOS keep the health % based CC & move the Defile to 120 ulti tbh


Sneak & Surprise Attack CC actually require some skill to land similar to Streak, and Fear... well, haven't used it (the Mass Hysteria morph - Trap morph I've played around with) in years because it's meh vs good players who CC break fast & avoid follow-up.

pieratsos wrote: »

Honestly there is really no point discussing this further with you. You are so biased to the point where it's becoming a meme. Keep believing in fairytales.

Also nice attempt with that list of dumb comments to make ur point. Now u can actually go back to the forums since rune cage became a monster and see the Constructive comments from people who actually know what they are talking about. And then feel free to ask urself why they are all arguing with you if they don't like cage either. Maybe ull realize how stupid some of ur comments are.

How exactly am I biased (I have stam/magicka builds of each class I make builds for)? Or is that just a word you like to throw around?

Only bias I'll admit having is against the "meta". I hate meta and always look at things in "what would increase build diversity" kind of way.


I don't think it's a big secret that Rune Cage is the most broken thing in the game right now and I don't think pointing out that removing the damage doesn't really fix the issue is "bias" in any way, shape or form.

Especially when I can back that assertion with math and other facts.

Apherius

@DDuke.

Could you just tell us what you purpose for sorc ? Then we could talk about that, It's your 23rd comment on this thread and I still don't understand what you want.

DDuke

Apherius wrote: »

@DDuke.

Could you just tell us what you purpose for sorc ? Then we could talk about that, It's your 23rd comment on this thread and I still don't understand what you want.

For Rune Cage to be dodgeable, like mentioned in ESO Live.


Removing damage from it doesn't matter when that damage removal can be negated by set choices (e.g. Balorgh and any future set they might add for burst) to still guarantee instagibs on non-tank builds.

In fact, they should keep the damage if they make it dodgeable so sorcs have a good tool against tank builds that require the extra sustained dps.

Apherius

DDuke wrote: »

Apherius wrote: »

@DDuke.

Could you just tell us what you purpose for sorc ? Then we could talk about that, It's your 23rd comment on this thread and I still don't understand what you want.

For Rune Cage to be dodgeable, like mentioned in ESO Live.


Removing damage from it doesn't matter when that damage removal can be negated by set choices (e.g. Balorgh and any future set they might add for burst) to still guarantee instagibs on non-tank builds.

In fact, they should keep the damage if they make it dodgeable so sorcs have a good tool against tank builds that require the extra sustained dps.

In the eso live they said they wanted it to be more " telegraphed" and allow players to dodge it if they react fast enough. I'm right ?

Well, let's compare Reach and rune cage now :

Rune cage ~ 41 meters ~ 2984 magicka : Inprison an enemy in a sphere of dark magic, stunning them for 5 seconds. Deals 6386 Magic Damage if the stun lasts the full duration (= 0 damage). This stun cannot be blocked but can be dodged.

Reach ~ 41 meters ~ 3232 magicka : Devastate an enemy with an enhanced charge from your staff dealing 6 190 " flame " damage and an additional 8610 "flame" damage over 8 seconds. Also knocks enemy back 5 meters.

Rune cage:

• Rune cage give you 12% of your max Health back ( Blood Magic)
• Give Minor prophecy, but not important since we get it with frag.
• Would be dodgeable. = 0 damage from rune cage
• Unblockable/Unreflectable = 0 damage from rune cage
• Cost 248 less magicka than Reach
• Allow a la-comet/la-rune cage/la-frag/curse proc/fury proc combo.

Reach:

• Reach can be spammed like FP
• You can use reach instead Force pulse = 1 free slot
• Reach can proc Burning effect
• Reach require a destruction staff, but not important since we do need to use a destruction staff on magsorc.
• Reach is blockable ( like FP) but you still take some damage from it even if you block ( + the dot, but not important if you spam it cause it will refresh the dot )
• Reach can be avoided (Like FP) and reflected. = 0 damage from reach.
• Except if you are melee, I believe the target will block when you use a comet on them. it mean it does not allow the same combo, tell me if i'm wrong and which combo it allow, I have not used it for a long time.
• knocks enemy back 5 meters, extremely useful near lava/void or against a target in height ( on the ramparts)
• Reach cost goes down to around 2.1k magicka with a Master Staff and adds another 2k damage

Keep it mind that Rune cage is a class skill and should be better than Reach or at least interesting in more scenario.
Let's compare the most important point now:
- Rune cage allow a burst combo ( see above ) because it is unblockable ( because most target will block when they see they are going to be hit by a meteor )
- Reach can be used instead Force pulse ( =1 free slot) and can CC/knocks target back 5 meters + Reach cost goes down to around 2.1k magicka with a Master Staff and adds another 2k damage

It's not that bad, I would still use Rune cage even if they make it dodgable, then CC with streak the target who constantly dodge.
You said they should keep the damage if they make it dodgable, do you mean it should deal damage if the target break free like the current version ?

Kilandros

Apherius wrote: »

@DDuke.

Could you just tell us what you purpose for sorc ? Then we could talk about that, It's your 23rd comment on this thread and I still don't understand what you want.

He wants to be able to dodge everything. He doesn't actually care about Rune Cage being balanced; he only cares that it's "balanced" for his preferred playstyle.

bhlegit

just give cc back to frag. end of argument.