4.1.2 Rune cage change is a joke.

Skoomah

It’s an effective strategy. Just flood the forum post with replies that don’t talk about the thread’s original topic. That derails the thread and the central issue never gets addressed. Thus, you get to keep your broken mechanic. Brilliant.

Feanor

@Apherius

If you factor in that Reach cost goes down to around 2.1k magicka with a Master Staff and adds another 2k damage it’s overall better. That’s why must people were running it before Summerset.

DDuke

Apherius wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Apherius wrote: »

@DDuke.

Could you just tell us what you purpose for sorc ? Then we could talk about that, It's your 23rd comment on this thread and I still don't understand what you want.

For Rune Cage to be dodgeable, like mentioned in ESO Live.


Removing damage from it doesn't matter when that damage removal can be negated by set choices (e.g. Balorgh and any future set they might add for burst) to still guarantee instagibs on non-tank builds.

In fact, they should keep the damage if they make it dodgeable so sorcs have a good tool against tank builds that require the extra sustained dps.

In the eso live they said they wanted it to be more " telegraphed" and allow players to dodge it if they react fast enough. I'm right ?

Well, let's compare Reach and rune cage now :

Rune cage ~ 41 meters ~ 2984 magicka : Inprison an enemy in a sphere of dark magic, stunning them for 5 seconds. Deals 6386 Magic Damage if the stun lasts the full duration (= 0 damage). This stun cannot be blocked but can be dodged.

Reach ~ 41 meters ~ 3232 magicka : Devastate an enemy with an enhanced charge from your staff dealing 6 190 " flame " damage and an additional 8610 "flame" damage over 8 seconds. Also knocks enemy back 5 meters.

Rune cage:

• Rune cage give you 12% of your max Health back ( Blood Magic)
• Give Minor prophecy, but not important since we get it with frag.
• Would be dodgeable. = 0 damage from rune cage
• Unblockable/Unreflectable = 0 damage from rune cage
• Cost 248 less magicka than Reach
• Allow a la-comet/la-rune cage/la-frag/curse proc/fury proc combo.

Reach:

• Reach can be spammed like FP
• You can use reach instead Force pulse = 1 free slot
• Reach can proc Burning effect
• Reach require a destruction staff, but not important since we do need to use a destruction staff on magsorc.
• Reach is blockable ( like FP) but you still take some damage from it even if you block ( + the dot, but not important if you spam it cause it will refresh the dot )
• Reach can be avoided (Like FP) and reflected. = 0 damage from reach.
• Except if you are melee, I believe the target will block when you use a comet on them. it mean it does not allow the same combo, tell me if i'm wrong and which combo it allow, I have not used it for a long time.
• knocks enemy back 5 meters, extremely useful near lava/void or against a target in height ( on the ramparts)
• Reach cost goes down to around 2.1k magicka with a Master Staff and adds another 2k damage

Keep it mind that Rune cage is a class skill and should be better than Reach or at least interesting in more scenario.
Let's compare the most important point now:
- Rune cage allow a burst combo ( see above ) because it is unblockable ( because most target will block when they see they are going to be hit by a meteor )
- Reach can be used instead Force pulse ( =1 free slot) and can CC/knocks target back 5 meters + Reach cost goes down to around 2.1k magicka with a Master Staff and adds another 2k damage

It's not that bad, I would still use Rune cage even if they make it dodgable, then CC with streak the target who constantly dodge.
You said they should keep the damage if they make it dodgable, do you mean it should deal damage if the target break free like the current version ?

Yes, it should keep dealing damage if it was dodgeable.

I don't want them to trash the skill, I want them to make it balanced - i.e. better against the builds sorc struggle against & worse against the builds that sorcs already were strong against.


The removal of damage from Cage is like the opposite of that: you still instagib medium armor dodge rollers, still struggle to kill tanks.

It's a lose-lose when it should be a win-win.

DDuke

Feanor wrote: »

@Apherius

If you factor in that Reach cost goes down to around 2.1k magicka with a Master Staff and adds another 2k damage it’s overall better. That’s why must people were running it before Summerset.

...and have you factored in that by slotting Reach you can't go 5/5/2, meaning all your other burst deals less damage?

Master Staff isn't bad, but it does come at a cost after the Summerset 2H changes.


In any case, I never considered Reach unbalanced (and yes, I still died to it often on my medium armor dodge rollers, but always because of a misplay and not because of something out of my control).

Apherius

DDuke wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

@Apherius

If you factor in that Reach cost goes down to around 2.1k magicka with a Master Staff and adds another 2k damage it’s overall better. That’s why must people were running it before Summerset.

...and have you factored in that by slotting Reach you can't go 5/5/2, meaning all your other burst deals less damage?

Master Staff isn't bad, but it does come at a cost after the Summerset 2H changes.

Well, You can go 5/5/2 with master destro.

2 monster set piece ( engine guardian or 2*1 pc max magicka )
5 Shackelbreaker/Amberplasm.
3 lich jewelry.
1 (=2 pc) lich resto staff
1 master destro OR willpower staff.

Strider__Roshin

Kilandros wrote: »

Apherius wrote: »

@DDuke.

Could you just tell us what you purpose for sorc ? Then we could talk about that, It's your 23rd comment on this thread and I still don't understand what you want.

He wants to be able to dodge everything. He doesn't actually care about Rune Cage being balanced; he only cares that it's "balanced" for his preferred playstyle.

He wants people to win against others because they were the superior player rather than being carried by OP abilities. What a strange one he is.

Feanor

Apherius wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

@Apherius

If you factor in that Reach cost goes down to around 2.1k magicka with a Master Staff and adds another 2k damage it’s overall better. That’s why must people were running it before Summerset.

...and have you factored in that by slotting Reach you can't go 5/5/2, meaning all your other burst deals less damage?

Master Staff isn't bad, but it does come at a cost after the Summerset 2H changes.

Well, You can go 5/5/2 with master destro.

2 monster set piece ( engine guardian or 2*1 pc max magicka )
5 Shackelbreaker/Amberplasm.
3 lich jewelry.
1 (=2 pc) lich resto staff
1 master destro OR willpower staff.

That’s what I’ve been running for a while for testing purposes. It’s quite nice.

Weps

I still don't get why they are so reluctant at putting the tiny little details to the basic morph and then adding a mag, stam or health variations to less utilised morphs. Of course the vast majority of magicka users will not use the underwhelming, underperforming variation and only the niche or the unprepared will use it.

Just put the stun back to the base crystal morph, then add a magicka and stamina version and turn Rune Cage into an hard CC that requires you to be melee range exposing you to risk and counters.

I think Wrobel has had his 3 months of being super powerful, it's time to make choice for the benefit of the game and balance.

Thanks

pieratsos

DDuke wrote: »

Yes, Streak has multiple uses (can disrupt combos as well). Thanks for reinforcing my point about it being a good CC vs dodge rollers.

Exactly, against you. You somehow believe that everything is balanced around you and how you play. Frag cc is a reliable offensive cc in terms of allowing you to land ur combo if u play correctly and land it. Reliable does not equal guaranteed.

Look at ur fight against the sorc. Even in the best case scenario for streak which is against a NB meaning an actually guaranteed cc the sorc manged to land a combo after a streak just once when u didnt cc break and the combo came in 2 seconds after u got cced. In every other streak cc he was barely managing to get one ability off before u were up. In most cases you were up before he even turned around. This is simply how streak works. It doesnt last long enough to give you time to turn around and get a good combo on ur opponent. Its simply impossible to turn around and cast more than one ability in 1.5 second. Aka its not a reliable offensive cc allowing you to land ur combo.

Now go and look at ur fight again and how the sorc is actually using streak against you. Besides the obvious reason to keep you out of cloak, every single time you pressure him he is streaking through you. He is not doing it offensively to land a combo. He is doing it to disrupt you because he cant take ur dmg which gives him time to get his shields up and buff up. Its an instinctive defensive move by every good sorc. A bad sorc would just stay there try to shieldstack the dmg run out of magicka and die.

And that fight is again, the best case scenario for streak to be used offensively. There are fights when streak is literally useless offensively because of how it operates. Frag isnt, if you land it you get ur combo. Simple as that. I explained it in detail. If you still dont get it, i cant help you.

DDuke wrote: »

Sneak & Surprise Attack CC actually require some skill to land similar to Streak, and Fear... well, haven't used it (the Mass Hysteria morph - Trap morph I've played around with) in years because it's meh vs good players who CC break fast & avoid follow-up.

I dont give a flying *** about how much skill they require. This isnt about skill. This is about offensive stuns allowing you to land ur combos. According to you a very high burst class shouldnt have them. Burn them all. The only one you are allowed to have is the fear trap. And im being generous with that cause that one still helps land ur combo. Maybe make it to only work if u are facing the other way. That'd be balanced.

Kinda ironic tho, calling fear meh because people cc break fast and avoid follow up but when it comes to streak its perfect and its all about sorc's l2p issues. Imagine if fear lasted 1.5 seconds, had a delayed animation with a "self root" and then you still had to turn around before you attack. L2p issues if you cant use it.

DDuke wrote: »

How exactly am I biased (I have stam/magicka builds of each class I make builds for)? Or is that just a word you like to throw around?

Only bias I'll admit having is against the "meta". I hate meta and always look at things in "what would increase build diversity" kind of way.


I don't think it's a big secret that Rune Cage is the most broken thing in the game right now and I don't think pointing out that removing the damage doesn't really fix the issue is "bias" in any way, shape or form.

Especially when I can back that assertion with math and other facts.

You are biased because u treat similar scenarios in a different way just to make a point, u are trying to balance the game around you and on top of that u tell people that doesnt agree with you to l2p.

When it comes to you, things can be difficult cause u are in open world and its a chaotic fight etc but when it comes to sorcs nooooooooo, god forbid if sorcs play in outnumbered chaotic fights. Every single one of them is a zergling, immune to any dmg or cc attacking unsuspected targets, they all use the build you theorycrafted (which is bad in open world) with 30k shields and those shields are always up somehow. Fear is meh cause they break free and u cant follow up but streak is perfect and you have l2p issues if u cant use it. Yeah, not biased at all.

No its not a big secret that rune cage is broken. Whats is also not a secret is that people are not arguing with you cause they like rune cage. You are the only that is yet to figure that out.

IAVITNI

DDuke wrote: »

Including Fury, that's 5 skills, 5 GCDs, 5 seconds. So you're getting a full Vigor during this. We'll remove all but 1 light attacks since I don't want to do the math of Vigor v LA:

total tooltip damage without Meteor is:
Shock Glyph 2534+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge]+5%[Energized])=2964
Rune Cage 0 (for the sake of the argument)
Light Attack 3565+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge])=3992
Frag 12 260+(8%[Ancient Knowledge]+10%[Frag Proc])=14 466
Curse 10574+8%(Ancient Knowledge)=11 419
Well assume Fury=4 000
Total Tooltip damage: 36 883

36 883-(50%[Battle Spirit]*8,112%[17634-12 264])=15 102 damage

That puts you just under 25%. Assuming you know that burst is coming, you're going to pop another vigor around the same time you are tagged with Curse so you'll be getting 1.5 seconds of Vigor. But just add that single 1.5k tick and look. Not in execute range. Pop vigor one more time and Rally and you're back to full health assuming you do more than stand there and take it.

This is why you come off as bias. Whether intentional or due to adversarial expectations you omit/misread posts and respond as if I said something else. I said I put 2 health glyphs on my stamblade and you equated that as me stacking health on a magsorc. I did miscount the GCD's but you didn't point that out because you didn't actually read what I posted. You read what you wanted to.

DDuke wrote: »

Anyway, I agree that they shouldn't remove the damage from Cage (precisely because of those tank builds), but they should make it dodgeable.

Win-win, sorcs get to keep damage to deal with tanks & builds that rely on dodge roll can still actually use their main defensive mechanic to survive.

Keeping the damage on Cage is still more dangerous. If I manage to CC your build with the damage on cage, it's still a guaranteed kill. The moment I curse it will force a roll dodge and I can re-Curse far more than you can roll dodge. The complaints of instant burst will still be there if the damage stays on Cage because while it may happen slightly less often, it will still happen. People don't care that they get CC'd. They care that they end up dying while being CC'd which a dodgeable Rune won't fix. And if Cage neither goes through dodge or deals damage, it's simply useless skill.

Damageless cage is the middle ground between ideal and overpowered. The damage of the sorc burst without Rune damage won't kill majority of players from full health, it takes up a GCD and a bar slot. There's actual choice between guaranteed damage and killing damage.

While I haven't played damageless Rune in SS, I have performed the combo without casting Rune--they're CC immune. The damage doesn't kill the average player on live, yes even in medium. I don't have the numbers to present to you, but I do have actual experience with the class in open world PvP and BGs. I run a balanced build-->Spinner (hence magelight>drain)+Lich+2pc willpower with either Infernal or Engine Guardian. From actual combat experience the majority of medium builds can survive the basic Curse-Fury-Frag.

Your build cannot be used as a baseline. You yourself claim it is a stealth build which implies you trade static survivability (whats the correct term in ESO? I want to say effective health but it's not used in these forums) but compensate by relying on stealth.

By definition, you cannot claim your build to be the baseline in the same way you cannot claim tanks to be baseline. Both will lean slightly towards too much health or too little.

If anything, stamblade needs a nerf to Cloak to allow for a defensive buff across the board. Instead of asking for a nerf to a single skill that takes a class from OP to medioce (slightly below balanced) ask for buffs to improve the overall health of your class. Without the damage from Rune, I'm not going to be able to kill anyone of the same skill level.

KingLogix

IAVITNI wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Including Fury, that's 5 skills, 5 GCDs, 5 seconds. So you're getting a full Vigor during this. We'll remove all but 1 light attacks since I don't want to do the math of Vigor v LA:

total tooltip damage without Meteor is:
Shock Glyph 2534+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge]+5%[Energized])=2964
Rune Cage 0 (for the sake of the argument)
Light Attack 3565+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge])=3992
Frag 12 260+(8%[Ancient Knowledge]+10%[Frag Proc])=14 466
Curse 10574+8%(Ancient Knowledge)=11 419
Well assume Fury=4 000
Total Tooltip damage: 36 883

36 883-(50%[Battle Spirit]*8,112%[17634-12 264])=15 102 damage

That puts you just under 25%. Assuming you know that burst is coming, you're going to pop another vigor around the same time you are tagged with Curse so you'll be getting 1.5 seconds of Vigor. But just add that single 1.5k tick and look. Not in execute range. Pop vigor one more time and Rally and you're back to full health assuming you do more than stand there and take it.

This is why you come off as bias. Whether intentional or due to adversarial expectations you omit/misread posts and respond as if I said something else. I said I put 2 health glyphs on my stamblade and you equated that as me stacking health on a magsorc. I did miscount the GCD's but you didn't point that out because you didn't actually read what I posted. You read what you wanted to.

DDuke wrote: »

Anyway, I agree that they shouldn't remove the damage from Cage (precisely because of those tank builds), but they should make it dodgeable.

Win-win, sorcs get to keep damage to deal with tanks & builds that rely on dodge roll can still actually use their main defensive mechanic to survive.

Keeping the damage on Cage is still more dangerous. If I manage to CC your build with the damage on cage, it's still a guaranteed kill. The moment I curse it will force a roll dodge and I can re-Curse far more than you can roll dodge. The complaints of instant burst will still be there if the damage stays on Cage because while it may happen slightly less often, it will still happen. People don't care that they get CC'd. They care that they end up dying while being CC'd which a dodgeable Rune won't fix. And if Cage neither goes through dodge or deals damage, it's simply useless skill.

Damageless cage is the middle ground between ideal and overpowered. The damage of the sorc burst without Rune damage won't kill majority of players from full health, it takes up a GCD and a bar slot. There's actual choice between guaranteed damage and killing damage.

While I haven't played damageless Rune in SS, I have performed the combo without casting Rune--they're CC immune. The damage doesn't kill the average player on live, yes even in medium. I don't have the numbers to present to you, but I do have actual experience with the class in open world PvP and BGs. I run a balanced build-->Spinner (hence magelight>drain)+Lich+2pc willpower with either Infernal or Engine Guardian. From actual combat experience the majority of medium builds can survive the basic Curse-Fury-Frag.

Your build cannot be used as a baseline. You yourself claim it is a stealth build which implies you trade static survivability (whats the correct term in ESO? I want to say effective health but it's not used in these forums) but compensate by relying on stealth.

By definition, you cannot claim your build to be the baseline in the same way you cannot claim tanks to be baseline. Both will lean slightly towards too much health or too little.

If anything, stamblade needs a nerf to Cloak to allow for a defensive buff across the board. Instead of asking for a nerf to a single skill that takes a class from OP to medioce (slightly below balanced) ask for buffs to improve the overall health of your class. Without the damage from Rune, I'm not going to be able to kill anyone of the same skill level.

You seem knowledgeable. Do you think the recent changes to rune cage will help? Will it reduce the volume of sorcs? Will sorcs ACTUALLY go back to reach? I just want to know that there is light at the end of the tunnel. Thanks

DDuke

pieratsos wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Yes, Streak has multiple uses (can disrupt combos as well). Thanks for reinforcing my point about it being a good CC vs dodge rollers.

Exactly, against you. You somehow believe that everything is balanced around you and how you play. Frag cc is a reliable offensive cc in terms of allowing you to land ur combo if u play correctly and land it. Reliable does not equal guaranteed.

Look at ur fight against the sorc. Even in the best case scenario for streak which is against a NB meaning an actually guaranteed cc the sorc manged to land a combo after a streak just once when u didnt cc break and the combo came in 2 seconds after u got cced. In every other streak cc he was barely managing to get one ability off before u were up. In most cases you were up before he even turned around. This is simply how streak works. It doesnt last long enough to give you time to turn around and get a good combo on ur opponent. Its simply impossible to turn around and cast more than one ability in 1.5 second. Aka its not a reliable offensive cc allowing you to land ur combo.

Now go and look at ur fight again and how the sorc is actually using streak against you. Besides the obvious reason to keep you out of cloak, every single time you pressure him he is streaking through you. He is not doing it offensively to land a combo. He is doing it to disrupt you because he cant take ur dmg which gives him time to get his shields up and buff up. Its an instinctive defensive move by every good sorc. A bad sorc would just stay there try to shieldstack the dmg run out of magicka and die.

And that fight is again, the best case scenario for streak to be used offensively. There are fights when streak is literally useless offensively because of how it operates. Frag isnt, if you land it you get ur combo. Simple as that. I explained it in detail. If you still dont get it, i cant help you.

First off, it's not about me - it's about dodge roll builds in general. Frag wasn't a "reliable CC" against those and that's exactly why it was balanced.

Second, the main reason the game was more balanced back then is because there weren't skills that let you not just "reliably", but almost guaranteed land literally all your burst (not just one or two skills, but all of it).


"Reliable", "guaranteed" - these words need to be removed when they're associated with a crowd control ability - especially one that's delayed like RC.

pieratsos wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Sneak & Surprise Attack CC actually require some skill to land similar to Streak, and Fear... well, haven't used it (the Mass Hysteria morph - Trap morph I've played around with) in years because it's meh vs good players who CC break fast & avoid follow-up.

I dont give a flying *** about how much skill they require. This isnt about skill. This is about offensive stuns allowing you to land ur combos. According to you a very high burst class shouldnt have them. Burn them all. The only one you are allowed to have is the fear trap. And im being generous with that cause that one still helps land ur combo. Maybe make it to only work if u are facing the other way. That'd be balanced.

Kinda ironic tho, calling fear meh because people cc break fast and avoid follow up but when it comes its perfect and its all about sorc's l2p issues. Imagine if it lasted 1.5 seconds, had a delayed animation with a "self root" and then you still had to turn around before you attack. Trololol.

I don't think you understand what I'm getting at. Offensive stuns that let you land a lot of burst are fine, as long as they aren't reliable.

I.e. they actually require some skill (yes, skill should matter in competitive online games) to land, otherwise they miss entirely. A skill that can be dodged/avoided isn't "reliable", and that's good.


CCs need to give you a chance (how big/small chance should be determined by player skill) to land your burst, not a guarantee.

pieratsos wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

How exactly am I biased (I have stam/magicka builds of each class I make builds for)? Or is that just a word you like to throw around?

Only bias I'll admit having is against the "meta". I hate meta and always look at things in "what would increase build diversity" kind of way.


I don't think it's a big secret that Rune Cage is the most broken thing in the game right now and I don't think pointing out that removing the damage doesn't really fix the issue is "bias" in any way, shape or form.

Especially when I can back that assertion with math and other facts.

You are biased because u treat similar scenarios in a different way just to make a point, u are trying to balance the game around you and on top of that u tell people that doesnt agree with you to l2p.

When it comes to you, things can be difficult cause u are in open world and its a chaotic fight etc but when it comes to sorcs nooooooooo, god forbid if sorcs play in outnumbered chaotic fights. Every single one of them is a zergling, immune to any dmg or cc attacking unsuspected targets, they all use the build you theorycrafted (which is bad in open world) with 30k shields and those shields are always up somehow. Fear is meh cause they break free and u cant follow up but streak is perfect and you have l2p issues if u cant use it. Yeah, not biased at all.

No its not a big secret that rune cage is broken. Whats is also not a secret is that people are not arguing with you cause they like rune cage. You are the only that is yet to figure that out.

So what, I should start crying about Shield Breaker and what not? I'm sorry, but that is not going to improve my gameplay experience (or that of the other victims of this game's current fotm class).

So because I find Rune Cage a gamebreaking issue for my build (and other non-tank builds) and complain about it without bringing up sorc issues (in a thread not dedicated to "sorc issues") I'm suddenly "biased"? I think that's me staying on topic.


If you want to make a thread about how badly (lol) sorcs struggle when outnumbered be my quest - as long as Rune Cage remains an issue I can come point out how they atleast don't get instagibbed by unavoidable burst like some other builds in the game.


Also if you look at what I said about fear, I mentioned it's meh against good players. It's still very good vs average players who take their time CC breaking & eat all the burst, which is why many NBs run it.

pieratsos

DDuke wrote: »

First off, it's not about me - it's about dodge roll builds in general. Frag wasn't a "reliable CC" against those and that's exactly why it was balanced.

Yes it was reliable offensively. I explained what i meant by that, go back and read it. Reliable not in terms of always landing it but in terms of being able to rely on it to land a combo if you play good and manage to land the skill of course.

Streak doesnt work like that. Even if ur opponents dont break you still cant rely on it offensively to land ur combos. Not sure how much more simple do u want me to make it for you. Its really not that hard of a concept.

DDuke wrote: »

Also if you look at what I said about fear, I mentioned it's meh against good players. It's still very good vs average players who take their time CC breaking & eat all the burst, which is why many NBs run it.

And if you look at streak its meh if not bad against any type of player if ur intention is to land a good combo. They dont need to cc break it early. The cc itself breaks early for you.

DDuke wrote: »

So what, I should start crying about Shield Breaker and what not?

No, you should have just stayed constructive on the topic of rune cage instead of provoking people with ur l2p statements and biased scenarios. Like @IAVITNI said

IAVITNI wrote: »

@DDuke TL;DR: All you need to say is this:

No class should have access to both an unblockable and undodgable CC and unblockable and undodgable damage as it severely limits counterplay.

To which the magsorc reply will be:

Take Rune Cage away, but give us something to compensate for the frag nerf that resulted in a loss of damage, bar space and a GCD because without it sorcs don't have competitive pressure or burst.

That's it. Keep the rest to yourself because it's all a biased perspective.

DDuke

IAVITNI wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Including Fury, that's 5 skills, 5 GCDs, 5 seconds. So you're getting a full Vigor during this. We'll remove all but 1 light attacks since I don't want to do the math of Vigor v LA:

total tooltip damage without Meteor is:
Shock Glyph 2534+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge]+5%[Energized])=2964
Rune Cage 0 (for the sake of the argument)
Light Attack 3565+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge])=3992
Frag 12 260+(8%[Ancient Knowledge]+10%[Frag Proc])=14 466
Curse 10574+8%(Ancient Knowledge)=11 419
Well assume Fury=4 000
Total Tooltip damage: 36 883

36 883-(50%[Battle Spirit]*8,112%[17634-12 264])=15 102 damage

That puts you just under 25%. Assuming you know that burst is coming, you're going to pop another vigor around the same time you are tagged with Curse so you'll be getting 1.5 seconds of Vigor. But just add that single 1.5k tick and look. Not in execute range. Pop vigor one more time and Rally and you're back to full health assuming you do more than stand there and take it.

This is why you come off as bias. Whether intentional or due to adversarial expectations you omit/misread posts and respond as if I said something else. I said I put 2 health glyphs on my stamblade and you equated that as me stacking health on a magsorc. I did miscount the GCD's but you didn't point that out because you didn't actually read what I posted. You read what you wanted to.

Well let me ask you a question: do you need to put even 2 health glyphs on a mSorc to survive? Would you?

Ponder on that for a second.


Also you miscounted a whole lot more than just the GCDs, but I didn't feel like correcting it last time. I could go into detail, but the main point is this: you don't get full Vigor during that 1-2 GCD it takes for literally all of Sorc burst to go off.

That's why dmg shields are so much better defensive mechanic than dodge roll: they let you survive *** like that by making a pre-emptive move.

IAVITNI wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Anyway, I agree that they shouldn't remove the damage from Cage (precisely because of those tank builds), but they should make it dodgeable.

Win-win, sorcs get to keep damage to deal with tanks & builds that rely on dodge roll can still actually use their main defensive mechanic to survive.

Keeping the damage on Cage is still more dangerous. If I manage to CC your build with the damage on cage, it's still a guaranteed kill. The moment I curse it will force a roll dodge and I can re-Curse far more than you can roll dodge. The complaints of instant burst will still be there if the damage stays on Cage because while it may happen slightly less often, it will still happen. People don't care that they get CC'd. They care that they end up dying while being CC'd which a dodgeable Rune won't fix. And if Cage neither goes through dodge or deals damage, it's simply useless skill.

I highlighted the word that makes that balanced and ideal. If you manage to CC a dodge roller when you go for burst.

Currently the word we're using isn't "if", it's "when" - and that's what makes Cage so broken and why it requires zero skill to use and no amount of skill lets you avoid it.


If you CC someone with a dodgeable ability, you played better than they did - simple as that. And that's when you deserve a kill on a dodge roller.

IAVITNI wrote: »

Damageless cage is the middle ground between ideal and overpowered. The damage of the sorc burst without Rune damage won't kill majority of players from full health, it takes up a GCD and a bar slot. There's actual choice between guaranteed damage and killing damage.

So this is what I don't get: sorcs have the highest burst in the game even without Cage damage, but somehow it's not enough to kill majority of players?

I kill majority of players with my dodgeable/blockable bow burst, and that's about half the damage of a RC Meteor combo.

IAVITNI wrote: »

While I haven't played damageless Rune in SS, I have performed the combo without casting Rune--they're CC immune. The damage doesn't kill the average player on live, yes even in medium. I don't have the numbers to present to you, but I do have actual experience with the class in open world PvP and BGs. I run a balanced build-->Spinner (hence magelight>drain)+Lich+2pc willpower with either Infernal or Engine Guardian. From actual combat experience the majority of medium builds can survive the basic Curse-Fury-Frag.

Right, so with your gear you get:
10 262 Curse
3587 Light Attack
2964 Shock Glyph
6094 Rune Cage
3587 Light Attack
13 304 Frag

---

39 798 "tooltip burst" in noCP+50% Crit Modifier=59 697
+Fury


...and my bow build that currently instagibs any dodge roller without tank sets:
6767 Bombard
4141 Light Attack
23 216 Lethal Arrow
4141 Light Attack
7038 Bombard
+possibly Poison Dmg/Defile/Vulnerability poison

---

45 303 "tooltip burst" in noCP+70% Crit Modifier=77 015

My penetration: 100
Your Spinner sorc's penetration: 8434

Target with 16 479 resistances (Medium+Major Ward/Resolve) would then take:
59 697->26 221 dmg
77 015->28 980 dmg


...so I'm really struggling to understand why you'd fail to burst most dodge roll builds out there (even on a low'ish dmg build). Maybe those players have Impreg/Brass slotted? Wouldn't surprise me if majority moved on to the tank meta already. I can tell when I hit one of those with a Lethal Arrow...

IAVITNI wrote: »

Your build cannot be used as a baseline. You yourself claim it is a stealth build which implies you trade static survivability (whats the correct term in ESO? I want to say effective health but it's not used in these forums) but compensate by relying on stealth.

By definition, you cannot claim your build to be the baseline in the same way you cannot claim tanks to be baseline. Both will lean slightly towards too much health or too little.

I hope you realize my build has to rely on sneak for one reason only: Rune Cage (and well, Sloads - but that is getting fixed).

If I'm outside stealth, I can get instagibbed at any moment by a sorc 40m away without nothing I can do about it.

IAVITNI wrote: »

If anything, stamblade needs a nerf to Cloak to allow for a defensive buff across the board. Instead of asking for a nerf to a single skill that takes a class from OP to medioce (slightly below balanced) ask for buffs to improve the overall health of your class. Without the damage from Rune, I'm not going to be able to kill anyone of the same skill level.

Right, stamblade needs a nerf to cloak.

You are aware that a cloak costs 45,6% of a stamblade's entire stamina pool & it takes 12,6 seconds to regenerate magicka for one cloak in noCP? And that every class apart from mag warden & mDK (without Overwhelming/Sload slotted) can deal with it?


I don't want health, I don't want mitigation - I want a build based on evading damage, not tanking it and if I'm quick enough reacting I should be able to avoid atleast the biggest burst in the entire game, not have it land on me guaranteed.

DDuke

pieratsos wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

First off, it's not about me - it's about dodge roll builds in general. Frag wasn't a "reliable CC" against those and that's exactly why it was balanced.

Yes it was reliable offensively. I explained what i meant by that, go back and read it. Reliable not in terms of always landing it but in terms of being able to rely on it to land a combo if you play good and manage to land the skill of course.

Streak doesnt work like that. Even if ur opponents dont break you still cant rely on it offensively to land ur combos. Not sure how much more simple do u want me to make it for you. Its really not that hard of a concept.

I think you and I have a different concepts of "reliable" and what that means - let's just leave it at that.

pieratsos wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Also if you look at what I said about fear, I mentioned it's meh against good players. It's still very good vs average players who take their time CC breaking & eat all the burst, which is why many NBs run it.

And if you look at streak its meh if not bad against any type of player if ur intention is to land a good combo. They dont need to cc break it early. The cc itself breaks early for you.

Fair enough. Maybe they should increase the duration then?

Feel free to make a "buff sorc" post.

pieratsos wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

So what, I should start crying about Shield Breaker and what not?

No, you should have just stayed constructive on the topic of rune cage instead of provoking people with ur l2p statements and biased scenarios. Like @IAVITNI said

Oh I am constructive. If I wasn't I wouldn't be wasting time trying to explain people who think "sorc doesn't have enough burst without cage damage" that sorc has the best burst in the entire fkin game.

I get that thrown at me over and over and over again:
"sorc is bad without cage"
"sorc dmg sucks"
"sorc needs undodgeable CC to deal with dodge rollers"

...and when I present some facts to prove all those notions wrong, I get ignored and people repeat the same bogus claims again. There really is only one response to that.

Ragnaroek93

Derra wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Needless to say, that's more than Rune Cage hits for on Live so people will still get one shot by uncounterable sorc burst - even more so than before.

Just that it will now cost 500 ulti and no longer work on rotations without ulti.

I don´t think it´ll be more so than before - atleast when looking at the frequency that it happens.

That being said - yeh can we just remove offensive cage? Make defensive rune tha base morph - one deals dmg one gives a debuff for morphs.
Bring back fragment CC.
Offensive cage isn´t balanceable.

I like that idea but defensive Runecage should be able to stun more than one person, maybe three different persons and should last 8 seconds (since the stun is also consumed by pets which have stun imunity...).

KingLogix

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Needless to say, that's more than Rune Cage hits for on Live so people will still get one shot by uncounterable sorc burst - even more so than before.

Just that it will now cost 500 ulti and no longer work on rotations without ulti.

I don´t think it´ll be more so than before - atleast when looking at the frequency that it happens.

That being said - yeh can we just remove offensive cage? Make defensive rune tha base morph - one deals dmg one gives a debuff for morphs.
Bring back fragment CC.
Offensive cage isn´t balanceable.

I like that idea but defensive Runecage should be able to stun more than one person, maybe three different persons and should last 8 seconds (since the stun is also consumed by pets which have stun imunity...).

definitely not o.o

IAVITNI

KingLogix wrote: »

You seem knowledgeable. Do you think the recent changes to rune cage will help? Will it reduce the volume of sorcs? Will sorcs ACTUALLY go back to reach? I just want to know that there is light at the end of the tunnel. Thanks

At the end of the day the class will be fine regardless of Rune Cage changes. It will most likely go back to where it was in Dragon Bones--great at potato farming and execute spamming in BGs but mediocre against players of equal level and up.

Outside burst potential, sorc has no sustained damage or actual pressure. Sorc "pressure" comes from the high burst potential that forces opponents to adopt a more reactive combat style than they would have to against other specs.

This is also the reason why most new players struggle against sorcs because killing a sorc requires the most accurate timing out of all classes. Mistiming burst results in the illusion that sorcs are invincible because players do not see the health bar move.

With that in mind, the removal of Rune damage completely removes that burst potential from the sorcs toolkit against the average PvP build meaning a sorcs burst-kill threat becomes really low in a 1v1. So the sorcs "mental pressure" is now non-existent. However, Rune increases the actual sustained pressure by guaranteeing a huge chunk of damage even if it is not enough to kill. So whether you slot Cage or make up the lost damage via something else the effectiveness of sorcs remains relatively the same, however there will technically be two sorcs--burst damage and "sustain"-damage. The creation of this dichotomy is why I think a damageless Cage>dodgeable because dodgeable and damgeless cage will simply not be slotted.

KingLogix wrote: »

Will it reduce the volume of sorcs?

Sorc volume will probably drop to just above Dragon Bone levels. They will still be strong in group scenarios but their individual potential will drop significantly. Ideally Cage should be changed to a utility skill and frags should regain CC and more damage but I doubt that will happen this patch.

KingLogix wrote: »

Will sorcs ACTUALLY go back to reach?

Cage was actually a viable alternative to Clench last patch. It simply wasn't popular because the masses had almost no exposure to it and for the OG sorcs it feels very clunky compared to CC on frags or Clench.

Personal opinion is that sorcs will go about 50/50. Half will stay with Cage but half will go back to Clench. Clench simply does more and retains the old school sorc feel much better. I'd say those that stay with Cage will be primarily post DW-mains, newer sorcs that have trouble landing frags and those without Master's staff.

Class will be fine. Adjustments will be made but Cage users will probably be shoehorned into Balorgh and Clench obviously will require Master staff which means majority of sorcs will still need to run lich. A class (and one with the lease diversity to being with) that is pidgeon-holed into specific skills and items is not balanced--especially when one of those items is considered to be too strong even before it hits live servers.

Admittedly no class is balanced, but that doesn't mean any class should be satisfied.

Kilandros

Daus wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

Apherius wrote: »

@DDuke.

Could you just tell us what you purpose for sorc ? Then we could talk about that, It's your 23rd comment on this thread and I still don't understand what you want.

He wants to be able to dodge everything. He doesn't actually care about Rune Cage being balanced; he only cares that it's "balanced" for his preferred playstyle.

He wants people to win against others because they were the superior player rather than being carried by OP abilities. What a strange one he is.

Agreed that people need to stop getting carried by Cloak and dodge roll spam. God forbid a scrublade actually have to eat a DoT or a single-target ability from time to time.

IAVITNI

DDuke wrote: »

I don't want health, I don't want mitigation - I want a build based on evading damage, not tanking it and if I'm quick enough reacting I should be able to avoid atleast the biggest burst in the entire game, not have it land on me guaranteed.

So because you want that the whole game has to cater to you?

DDuke wrote: »

Well let me ask you a question: do you need to put even 2 health glyphs on a mSorc to survive? Would you?

Ponder on that for a second.


Also you miscounted a whole lot more than just the GCDs, but I didn't feel like correcting it last time. I could go into detail, but the main point is this: you don't get full Vigor during that 1-2 GCD it takes for literally all of Sorc burst to go off.

That's why dmg shields are so much better defensive mechanic than dodge roll: they let you survive *** like that by making a pre-emptive move.

No as a Magsorc I do not invest into health because if my Health pool gets touched without a shield absorbing some of the damage I'm dead anyways. What I do invest in is Stamina Regen. Do I need to invest in Stamina Regen on a mSorc to survive? Yes. Do I? Yes.

And again you neglected the part where the example was without meteor. Twice. I can admit my mistakes but apparently you cannot. The whole point of bringing up Vigor was to negate the light attacks prior to the burst hitting, which means that the target is mots likely at full health.

DDuke wrote: »

I highlighted the word that makes that balanced and ideal. If you manage to CC a dodge roller when you go for burst.

Currently the word we're using isn't "if", it's "when" - and that's what makes Cage so broken and why it requires zero skill to use and no amount of skill lets you avoid it.


If you CC someone with a dodgeable ability, you played better than they did - simple as that. And that's when you deserve a kill on a dodge roller.

But that doesn't address the problem of instant burst and no it's not outplaying my opponent. In effect it's still a hard counter to all medium builds-not just roll dodgers-because if I land the combo, you're dead from 100-0 anyways. THAT's the problem. You can CC me all day but if I don't die then it's a non-issue. Damage on Cage guarantees a 100-0 kill, damgeless cage does not.

The next step would be to remove the damage from cage, but if you need to time a damageless cage to hit with frags, you may as well just hit with frags an exclude Cage entirely.

DDuke wrote: »

So this is what I don't get: sorcs have the highest burst in the game even without Cage damage, but somehow it's not enough to kill majority of players?

I kill majority of players with my dodgeable/blockable bow burst, and that's about half the damage of a RC Meteor combo.

Ok so now you're comparing an ulti-less burst to a Meteor burst.

DDuke wrote: »

...so I'm really struggling to understand why you'd fail to burst most dodge roll builds out there (even on a low'ish dmg build). Maybe those players have Impreg/Brass slotted? Wouldn't surprise me if majority moved on to the tank meta already. I can tell when I hit one of those with a Lethal Arrow...

On live I don't struggle because RUNE DEALS DAMAGE. Take the Rune damage of your calculations because nobody wants the live version. This whole discussion is about how sorc burst fairs without Cage damage. Damageless undodgable Rune is more balanced than a dodgeable Rune with Damage. IF I hit you with a full combo, even without meteor, you are dead if Rune has damage even at 100% health. Same can't be said for damageless Rune. Damageless Rune would require a sorc apply some pressure prior to killing burst, meaning my opponent has to stay above a certain health threshold.

• THATs the sorc playstyle. Not IF I hit you, you're dead but IF you don't respect my burst, you're dead.

DDuke wrote: »

I hope you realize my build has to rely on sneak for one reason only: Rune Cage (and well, Sloads - but that is getting fixed).

If I'm outside stealth, I can get instagibbed at any moment by a sorc 40m away without nothing I can do about it.

Actually the average player can slot 2 health glyphs. And you were running a stealth build prior to the Cage meta. We've actually had this discussion before during the last PTS but you were far more palpable because your specific build wasn't what you revolved your argument around.

DDuke wrote: »

Right, stamblade needs a nerf to cloak.

You are aware that a cloak costs 45,6% of a stamblade's entire stamina pool & it takes 12,6 seconds to regenerate magicka for one cloak in noCP? And that every class apart from mag warden & mDK (without Overwhelming/Sload slotted) can deal with it?

No, you're build cannot spam Cloak. I used to have no trouble spamming it by using tri-pots and/or running Jewels of Misrule while still being able to instantly burst any build below 26k with nothing more than a Bow heavy, Incap, (sometimes medium weave) and Execute. No Viper and I used 1 kragh and 1 kena. I've fought stamblades that Cloak more than I shield. Some stamblades don't do anything more than Cloak->Ambush->Incap->Execute, a playstyle that only works because of Cloak spam (I mean this literally, No medium weaves, SA etc. Just bow LA until they have ultimate).You're build and play style is not the only one that exists.

DDuke wrote: »

I don't want health, I don't want mitigation - I want a build based on evading damage, not tanking it and if I'm quick enough reacting I should be able to avoid atleast the biggest burst in the entire game, not have it land on me guaranteed.

So because you don't want to adjust your build ever so slightly the whole game has to accommodate you? Why do you even have 20k health than? Just run Lava-Foot Soup or a Max Stamina Food and forgo any defense all together.

Put 2 health glyphs on and you'll be fine. Don't complain about 800 tooltip damage when sorcs are losing 8k and most sorc mains are still asking for the skill to just be removed. But if it is to stay it may as well be worth the bar slot since the lost damage is not being compensated in anyways. Dropping block and doing nothing else isn't worth the slot and dropping a build from 100-0 is not ok either.

Damageless but Unblockable/undodgable Rune is far more balanced than Damage/Unblockable Cage across the board. The only draw back is that it will instakill dodge roll builds that refuse to invest even the tiniest bit into defence.

If you think slotting 2 health glyphs is hopping on the tank meta what do you call a Heavy DK in Impregnable-Barksin-Bloodspawn? Blue Road Keep?

Jsmalls

While I haven't played damageless Rune in SS, I have performed the combo without casting Rune--they're CC immune. The damage doesn't kill the average player on live, yes even in medium. I don't have the numbers to present to you, but I do have actual experience with the class in open world PvP and BGs. I run a balanced build-->Spinner (hence magelight>drain)+Lich+2pc willpower with either Infernal or Engine Guardian. From actual combat experience the majority of medium builds can survive the basic Curse-Fury-Frag.

Right, so with your gear you get:
10 262 Curse
3587 Light Attack
2964 Shock Glyph
6094 Rune Cage
3587 Light Attack
13 304 Frag

---

39 798 "tooltip burst" in noCP+50% Crit Modifier=59 697
+Fury


...and my bow build that currently instagibs any dodge roller without tank sets:
6767 Bombard
4141 Light Attack
23 216 Lethal Arrow
4141 Light Attack
7038 Bombard
+possibly Poison Dmg/Defile/Vulnerability poison

---

45 303 "tooltip burst" in noCP+70% Crit Modifier=77 015

My penetration: 100
Your Spinner sorc's penetration: 8434

Target with 16 479 resistances (Medium+Major Ward/Resolve) would then take:
59 697->26 221 dmg
77 015->28 980 dmg


@DDuke

Guess I lied I can't stay out...

You're missing something in your calculations. Just considering frags in that equation... You have them hitting a player for 10,000 of that 26k against 16k resistance....

That's just nooooot happening in game. If it were no MagSorc would ever be in this forums talking about ways to improve the class.

I have 51k magicka and 2500 spell damage with 3500 penetration from spinner and I'm not getting anywhere near 10k frags. Against a medium armor player I'll hit a 7500 damage crit frag with peak buffs up but more times than not 6-7k crits.

In fact in a perfect burst setup on live on a Max damage build I'll hit 1.5k light, 5k curse, 7k frag, 2-3k rune cage, 1.5k light for around 18k damage + fury. Throw in a 8-9k meteor and yeah I'll kill just about anything that stands, but I'm also using an ultimate. Take away that 3k from rune cage and the opponent is no longer in execute range and laughs off the entire burst. That's what any decent MagSorc actually cares about. Make it harder to land my burst by all means, but when I land my burst at least let it freaking work.

THESE ARE REALISTIC NUMBERS against competent opponents. From a MagSorc who has been playing a MAX damage build for the entire existence of MagSorcs.

I'll agree with you that RC needs to have a counter, Dodge or range are two big ones in my opinion, but you are spouting these insane damage numbers that really aren't realistic, and acting as if it's that is actually happening in Cryodiil which it's not. Maybe against potatoes, but every class is killing potatoes with ease.

DDuke

IAVITNI wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

I don't want health, I don't want mitigation - I want a build based on evading damage, not tanking it and if I'm quick enough reacting I should be able to avoid atleast the biggest burst in the entire game, not have it land on me guaranteed.

So because you want that the whole game has to cater to you?

Au contraire, I want the maximum variety of playstyles viable - not just tank builds & sorcs.


Game has to cater to every playstyle, not just the ones "approved" by sorc players.

IAVITNI wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Well let me ask you a question: do you need to put even 2 health glyphs on a mSorc to survive? Would you?

Ponder on that for a second.


Also you miscounted a whole lot more than just the GCDs, but I didn't feel like correcting it last time. I could go into detail, but the main point is this: you don't get full Vigor during that 1-2 GCD it takes for literally all of Sorc burst to go off.

That's why dmg shields are so much better defensive mechanic than dodge roll: they let you survive *** like that by making a pre-emptive move.

No as a Magsorc I do not invest into health because if my Health pool gets touched without a shield absorbing some of the damage I'm dead anyways. What I do invest in is Stamina Regen. Do I need to invest in Stamina Regen on a mSorc to survive? Yes. Do I? Yes.

So how is this true for a shield stacker, but not for a medium armor dodge roller? Double standard much?

Both light & medium have similar resistances.

IAVITNI wrote: »

And again you neglected the part where the example was without meteor. Twice. I can admit my mistakes but apparently you cannot. The whole point of bringing up Vigor was to negate the light attacks prior to the burst hitting, which means that the target is mots likely at full health.

What mistake? I only counted the light attacks that land during the CC (i.e. within 1-2GCD), not ones before.

Health before the instagib burst hardly matters unless you're fighting a tank.

IAVITNI wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

I highlighted the word that makes that balanced and ideal. If you manage to CC a dodge roller when you go for burst.

Currently the word we're using isn't "if", it's "when" - and that's what makes Cage so broken and why it requires zero skill to use and no amount of skill lets you avoid it.


If you CC someone with a dodgeable ability, you played better than they did - simple as that. And that's when you deserve a kill on a dodge roller.

But that doesn't address the problem of instant burst and no it's not outplaying my opponent. In effect it's still a hard counter to all medium builds-not just roll dodgers-because if I land the combo, you're dead from 100-0 anyways. THAT's the problem. You can CC me all day but if I don't die then it's a non-issue. Damage on Cage guarantees a 100-0 kill, damgeless cage does not.

The next step would be to remove the damage from cage, but if you need to time a damageless cage to hit with frags, you may as well just hit with frags an exclude Cage entirely.

Disagreed. "If"makes all the difference.

In shooters you kill people if you land the headshot.
In MOBAs you get kills if you land strong skill shots.

The skilled player wins.


What you want is for that if to be when and for players to still get instagib kills on non-tank builds (because obviously non-tank builds need to be punished, right?).

Not to mention you can still keep the same burst you have on Live by slotting Balorgh.

IAVITNI wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

So this is what I don't get: sorcs have the highest burst in the game even without Cage damage, but somehow it's not enough to kill majority of players?

I kill majority of players with my dodgeable/blockable bow burst, and that's about half the damage of a RC Meteor combo.

Ok so now you're comparing an ulti-less burst to a Meteor burst.

DDuke wrote: »

...so I'm really struggling to understand why you'd fail to burst most dodge roll builds out there (even on a low'ish dmg build). Maybe those players have Impreg/Brass slotted? Wouldn't surprise me if majority moved on to the tank meta already. I can tell when I hit one of those with a Lethal Arrow...

On live I don't struggle because RUNE DEALS DAMAGE. Take the Rune damage of your calculations because nobody wants the live version. This whole discussion is about how sorc burst fairs without Cage damage. Damageless undodgable Rune is more balanced than a dodgeable Rune with Damage. IF I hit you with a full combo, even without meteor, you are dead if Rune has damage even at 100% health. Same can't be said for damageless Rune. Damageless Rune would require a sorc apply some pressure prior to killing burst, meaning my opponent has to stay above a certain health threshold.

• THATs the sorc playstyle. Not IF I hit you, you're dead but IF you don't respect my burst, you're dead.

So you're sad that on a sorc build with sustain gear -from twice the range & without opponent being able to dodge/block it- you won't be dealing same burst dmg as (almost) a full dmg bow build?


How about slotting full dmg sorc gear? Have you even considered (let alone tested/calculated) the damage those deal even after change to Rune Cage damage?

IAVITNI wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

I hope you realize my build has to rely on sneak for one reason only: Rune Cage (and well, Sloads - but that is getting fixed).

If I'm outside stealth, I can get instagibbed at any moment by a sorc 40m away without nothing I can do about it.

Actually the average player can slot 2 health glyphs. And you were running a stealth build prior to the Cage meta. We've actually had this discussion before during the last PTS but you were far more palpable because your specific build wasn't what you revolved your argument around.

Oh yeah, hold on... was that when you wanted ZOS to buff Meteor's damage (because apparently it doesn't one shot enough ppl with Rune Cage)?
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/404457/buff-meteor-in-response-to-empower-change

Thank god they don't listen to some players...

IAVITNI wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Right, stamblade needs a nerf to cloak.

You are aware that a cloak costs 45,6% of a stamblade's entire stamina pool & it takes 12,6 seconds to regenerate magicka for one cloak in noCP? And that every class apart from mag warden & mDK (without Overwhelming/Sload slotted) can deal with it?

No, you're build cannot spam Cloak. I used to have no trouble spamming it by using tri-pots and/or running Jewels of Misrule while still being able to instantly burst any build below 26k with nothing more than a Bow heavy, Incap, (sometimes medium weave) and Execute. No Viper and I used 1 kragh and 1 kena. I've fought stamblades that Cloak more than I shield. Some stamblades don't do anything more than Cloak->Ambush->Incap->Execute, a playstyle that only works because of Cloak spam (I mean this literally, No medium weaves, SA etc. Just bow LA until they have ultimate).You're build and play style is not the only one that exists.

No, that's a playstyle that only works because of Incap stun (which needs to go) and because you're fighting against potatoes.

There's zero chance that build survives a bow build with Bombard/Acid Spray (and player who can aim it), zero chance it survives a Rune Cage & zero chance it kills anything tanky (or with dmg shields).

IAVITNI wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

I don't want health, I don't want mitigation - I want a build based on evading damage, not tanking it and if I'm quick enough reacting I should be able to avoid atleast the biggest burst in the entire game, not have it land on me guaranteed.

So because you don't want to adjust your build ever so slightly the whole game has to accommodate you? Why do you even have 20k health than? Just run Lava-Foot Soup or a Max Stamina Food and forgo any defense all together.

Because Artaeum Takeaway Broth gives you the most "value" and you still take hits in PvP? It doesn't matter if I have 20k health or not, I've seen up to 30k health tanks die to sorc combos & I don't have enough healing/sustain to maintain my health pool at 100% 24/7 like some cancer builds (hence why I need to go into sneak often).

IAVITNI wrote: »

Put 2 health glyphs on and you'll be fine. Don't complain about 800 tooltip damage when sorcs are losing 8k and most sorc mains are still asking for the skill to just be removed. But if it is to stay it may as well be worth the bar slot since the lost damage is not being compensated in anyways. Dropping block and doing nothing else isn't worth the slot and dropping a build from 100-0 is not ok either.

Yeah, you drop 1k burst damage for 2k health on a bow build (100% reliant on burst) - let me know how that works out for you. You really have no idea how bow builds work, do you?

IAVITNI wrote: »

Damageless but Unblockable/undodgable Rune is far more balanced than Damage/Unblockable Cage across the board. The only draw back is that it will instakill dodge roll builds that refuse to invest even the tiniest bit into defence.

If you think slotting 2 health glyphs is hopping on the tank meta what do you call a Heavy DK in Impregnable-Barksin-Bloodspawn? Blue Road Keep?

2 health glyphs isn't "hopping on the tank meta" - it's butchering a burst oriented build (i.e. a build not running bleeds & sloads) - builds I've been creating and playing since 2014 & builds I know a lot more about than you.


I'll slot health glyphs when sorcs have to slot health glyphs in order to survive, how about that? No double standards.

DDuke

Jsmalls wrote: »

While I haven't played damageless Rune in SS, I have performed the combo without casting Rune--they're CC immune. The damage doesn't kill the average player on live, yes even in medium. I don't have the numbers to present to you, but I do have actual experience with the class in open world PvP and BGs. I run a balanced build-->Spinner (hence magelight>drain)+Lich+2pc willpower with either Infernal or Engine Guardian. From actual combat experience the majority of medium builds can survive the basic Curse-Fury-Frag.

Right, so with your gear you get:
10 262 Curse
3587 Light Attack
2964 Shock Glyph
6094 Rune Cage
3587 Light Attack
13 304 Frag

---

39 798 "tooltip burst" in noCP+50% Crit Modifier=59 697
+Fury


...and my bow build that currently instagibs any dodge roller without tank sets:
6767 Bombard
4141 Light Attack
23 216 Lethal Arrow
4141 Light Attack
7038 Bombard
+possibly Poison Dmg/Defile/Vulnerability poison

---

45 303 "tooltip burst" in noCP+70% Crit Modifier=77 015

My penetration: 100
Your Spinner sorc's penetration: 8434

Target with 16 479 resistances (Medium+Major Ward/Resolve) would then take:
59 697->26 221 dmg
77 015->28 980 dmg


@DDuke

Guess I lied I can't stay out...

You're missing something in your calculations. Just considering frags in that equation... You have them hitting a player for 10,000 of that 26k against 16k resistance....

That's just nooooot happening in game. If it were no MagSorc would ever be in this forums talking about ways to improve the class.

I have 51k magicka and 2500 spell damage with 3500 penetration from spinner and I'm not getting anywhere near 10k frags. Against a medium armor player I'll hit a 7500 damage crit frag with peak buffs up but more times than not 6-7k crits.

In fact in a perfect burst setup on live on a Max damage build I'll hit 1.5k light, 5k curse, 7k frag, 2-3k rune cage, 1.5k light for around 18k damage + fury. Throw in a 8-9k meteor and yeah I'll kill just about anything that stands, but I'm also using an ultimate. Take away that 3k from rune cage and the opponent is no longer in execute range and laughs off the entire burst. That's what any decent MagSorc actually cares about. Make it harder to land my burst by all means, but when I land my burst at least let it freaking work.

THESE ARE REALISTIC NUMBERS against competent opponents. From a MagSorc who has been playing a MAX damage build for the entire existence of MagSorcs.

I'll agree with you that RC needs to have a counter, Dodge or range are two big ones in my opinion, but you are spouting these insane damage numbers that really aren't realistic, and acting as if it's that is actually happening in Cryodiil which it's not. Maybe against potatoes, but every class is killing potatoes with ease

Those numbers are before Battle Spirit & mitigation, see the ones below (for total burst) which are adjusted for how much damage a player would take after those are accounted for.

I thought I'd just bundle up the damage & then insert the total number to my calculator rather than counting each skill's damage individually.


I can give you the number for frags though:
13 304->5843 - 8764 Crit (50% Crit Modifier)

More realistic now? That is with his setup (Spinner/Lich/Engine Guardian/Willpower)

Galarthor

helios777 wrote: »

Both of those are melee, and have a lot less burst than a sorc. And in the case of DK specifically, the burst they do have is highly sacrificial.

Both have gap closers far outperforming any gap opener to ensure they are always in melee range. And no they don't burst less than sorcs.

A sorc bursting you down with a full rotation has less to do with the sorc doing a great job and more with you making a mistake / failing to keep the pressure up.

And no streak is not a viable alternative. Why?
1) the ability effectively stuns sorcs themselves
2) you end up facing away from the enemy and by the time you turned around the enemy has broken CC, thus negating th whole purpose of the CC to gain a global cooldown in which you are dealing damage while your opponent is not!

DDuke wrote: »

...and when I present some facts to prove all those notions wrong, I get ignored and people repeat the same bogus claims again. There really is only one response to that.

Pretty rich coming from a guy who ignores facts about sorcs that he got wrong, just because they don't fit his agenda.

DDuke

Galarthor wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

...and when I present some facts to prove all those notions wrong, I get ignored and people repeat the same bogus claims again. There really is only one response to that.

Pretty rich coming from a guy who ignores facts about sorcs that he got wrong, just because they don't fit his agenda.

Oh, this should be fun.

Such as?

Lord-Otto

DDuke wrote: »

Galarthor wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

...and when I present some facts to prove all those notions wrong, I get ignored and people repeat the same bogus claims again. There really is only one response to that.

Pretty rich coming from a guy who ignores facts about sorcs that he got wrong, just because they don't fit his agenda.

Oh, this should be fun.

Such as?

Necro/Destruction/Slime being a viable build?

DDuke

Lord-Otto wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Galarthor wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

...and when I present some facts to prove all those notions wrong, I get ignored and people repeat the same bogus claims again. There really is only one response to that.

Pretty rich coming from a guy who ignores facts about sorcs that he got wrong, just because they don't fit his agenda.

Oh, this should be fun.

Such as?

Necro/Destruction/Slime being a viable build?

If you build for max dmg playstyle, sure it is. Probably too advanced for players like you though.

Beardimus

So they undo the thing they did that triggered everyone, and yet everyone is triggered again.

Lol

DDuke

Beardimus wrote: »

So they undo the thing they did that triggered everyone, and yet everyone is triggered again.

Lol

Well, the thing is that they're also increasing burst damage a lot in this DLC with the Balorgh set and I still don't think the sorc burst is survivable after the Summerset Light Attack & 2H changes.


I know I've said in the past that them adding the dmg to Rune Cage was what broke it, but tbh that's only half true: them adding the dmg exacerbated the already underlying issue that it guarantees the entire sorc burst lands on target (and that damage to the Cage was like adding the +9-10k tooltip to sorc burst).


How are they ever going to add sets that increase burst damage while there's an ability that guarantees burst damage can land?


Imho what they need to do is give this ability a feasible counterplay & keep the damage - or redesign it entirely because it's not only limiting build diversity, it's also limiting itemization.

IAVITNI

I'm going to ignore most of your reply because at this point you're intentionally being antagonistic and you're taking things out of context to better serve your argument. Case and point:

DDuke wrote: »

Oh yeah, hold on... was that when you wanted ZOS to buff Meteor's damage (because apparently it doesn't one shot enough ppl with Rune Cage)?
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/404457/buff-meteor-in-response-to-empower-change

• If you read my very last comment I fully state I was unaware of LA changes and the thread was made April 3rd--13 days before the official sorc thread was created https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/407079/pts-update-18-feedback-thread-for-sorcerer-balance/p1Before the official PTS notes were actually released. Everyone who replied to that thread agreed btw because DB was the sorc ulti at the time
• If you want to look up my comment history why don't you go find my post where I say that Cage damage is going to give sorcs the extra burst that they've been lacking. Because I was one of the first people to mention that on the forums--https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/5006118#Comment_5006118 But I bet you'll only focus on my miscall for stam sorcs.
• At the time I made that Meteor thread NOBODY had thought Cage was going to become the monster it is now because Empower and Light Attack changes were the focus of everyones discussion.

DDuke wrote: »

What mistake? I only counted the light attacks that land during the CC (i.e. within 1-2GCD), not ones before.

The numbers I presented were pulled from your example but with no Meteor. Your mistake was to say I "conveniently" forgot the empowered Light Attack when I fully stated Meteor was not part of the combo which would remove empower as well. You don't read everything, you omit information to discredit me and you reference out of context. But keep pretending I'm the difficult one.

I'm done with this circular argument. Last point I'll make is below and it won't need a reply.

DDuke wrote: »

"Health before the instagib burst hardly matters unless you're fighting a tank"

If Cage keeps the damage, sorc combo remains an instagib for most medium builds as long as it hits. This shouldn't be the case. This is the whole point of removing Cage damage. There is no instagib because thats 8k tooltip damage off the burst, which usually translates to not hitting 25% on most builds which takes away another 15k tooltip damage. It's very apparent that ZoS does not want high burst builds running around instabursting people--they are intentionally increasing TTK across the board and have been nerfing all high bursts--starting with the old proc setups. This applies to all classes including sorcs and burst-bow builds (your bow build is burst because that's how you built it--your execute is DoT based...)

In the long run I want Cage cc removed entirely because it does not provide the type of utility the class actually needs. But for the interim the current iteration is the most balanced choice across the board (not just for your bow build)because the moment that a damage Cage hits, those builds are guaranteed dead and it removes that instagib damage but still provides sorc with a way to maintain pressure. Your proposed change only really benefits night blades because other classes aren’t going to be able to spam dodgeroll as much without cloak to reset costs.

Is it ideal? No. But the likelihood of ZoS doing anything beyond a numbers tweak this PTS is close to none at this point. The whole thing is just a compromise that leaves all parties unhappy.