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4.1.2 Rune cage change is a joke.

  • jaws343
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    Jsmalls wrote: »
    @KingLogix

    Didn't even read the comments on this. Just want to give you insight. Two patches ago MagSorc was a medium to low tier PvP class. They became a high tier PvP class because Rune Cage gave them the needed extra damage and reliability to land burst which pushed some builds into execute range to finish them off. They are removing the change that pushed MagSorcs into a high tier PvP class and literally reverting them back to what they were 2 patches ago. Just to give you a little insight no one complained about MagSorcs damage 2 patches ago, and the only complaints were player who couldn't 1v1 a MagSorc because they turtled up and shield stacked.

    MagSorcs added Rune Cage to their arsenal because it was better than Flame reach. This is no longer the case and MagSorcs will go back to that sub par easy to counter CC that will be instant break and decrease their chances of completing their burst.

    Do I care? No. I was a MagSorc at release, I was a MagSorc when they have been at their best, their worst, and so on.

    But let's not pretend that after this change that MagSorcs will still be over the top. If they weren't before they buffed Rune Cage then they won't be when they revert it with an increased 20% damage reduction (not that a damage reduction will matter considering the damage is even more unlikely to go off now trollololol).

    Just let us be a medium to low tier PvP class who can't physically burst anyone with over 28k health, and melts as soon as 2 players touch their only defense mechanism (damage shields) and let us be.

    P.S. the good MagSorcs will adapt, and bad ones will jump ship like every patch. Considering I'll be gaining a bar spot after I drop rune cage I have a plan to take the place of damage I'll be missing from it. Only thing this really does is make meteor useless to me once again... Sigh. It was fun having a decent ultimate while it lasted.

    See you in cyrodiil Xbox NA :wink:

    Exactly this. This "new" Rune Cage is the exact same one we had with CWC with a damage nerf. And increasing the stun from 2.5 to 5 seconds just guarantees that no-one will take damage from this skill.

    It is definitely dropping from my bar alongside force pulse. And frags and reach are going back on. The only reason I was even running it this patch was because it had guaranteed damage after a CC break. I'll go back to using streak to stun after I drop a meteor.
  • Sandman929
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    I'm still amazed that sorcs think their skills are getting them wins and that people just don't know how to CC break. Your CC is buggy as hell. At least have to decency to admit that instead of pretending otherwise. Knock backs like Dizzy, Leap, even Javelin I can usually break from before I hit the ground, but Rune Cage is a disaster even worse than NB's fear.
  • Sharee
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    Juhasow wrote: »
    Removing damage from rune cage is a step in the right direction. Currently this ability leaves no counterplay since it basicly makes no difference many times will You break free or not. If You wont break free sorc will just burst You and You'll die , if You will break free You'll add additional 2-3k dmg to sorc burst which in most cases will be around 10 % of someones health resulting in bringing it closer to or even under 20% health which further results with mages fury proc. Many times people were just killing themselves because they were breaking free. It may be not perfect change but still better then previous 20% dmg reduction.

    I think this is an important but often overlooked fact. The damage from the cage may not be high, but even if it was just a single damage point, and that one point brought you below 20% HP, it would trigger another huge hit from fury.

    Therefore, any damage removed from the combo is important because it can potentially prevent a much higher hit(and, usually, death).
    Edited by Sharee on July 23, 2018 8:40PM
  • helios777
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    For me (and I think for ZoS) the measure of if a skill is broken or not is if there is no counter to it in a 1v1. I've never died in a 1v1 with a sorc because of Rune Cage, never. Yes Xv1 is does suck butt here many many other skills that are nasty in outnumbered situations as well.
    Edited by helios777 on July 23, 2018 8:51PM
    Grand Warlord HAXERUS. One of the last OG Mag DKs.
    Mag DK through Thick and Thin.
    Retired from Cyrodiil until they finally decide to fix the performance, which is probably never.
  • Galarthor
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    Frag Stun would still leave sorcs pretty powerless against perma-dodgers and perma-blockers.
    So we need something that allows sorcs to deal with these 2 cancerous builds but does not affect "normal" as much as the current rune cage does. Though I still stand by my assessment that it is really only the clunky CC break that makes it feel so powerful. And both DKs and NBs can be very burst as well and got undodgeable and unblockable CCs with gap closers to ensure they are in range.

    Nevertheless, to appease the situation I have the following suggestion, that achieves both counterplay to Rune Cage and counterplay on the side of the sorcs against perma-dodgers and perma-blockers.

    Keep Rune Cage undodgable, since the perma-dodgers are already able to evade most things and damage in PvP. Especially the single target sorc abilities (to which class Rune Cage belongs after all).

    But make it blockable with the added secondary effect that it increases the block costs of future blocks for X seconds. The secondary effect is neither dodgeable or blockable.

    The result:

    Sorcs have a tool to deal with perma dodgers, which they have struggled with since the creation of the game.
    Sorcs also have a way to deal with the perma-block meta builds, by draining their blocking resource.
    BUT regular builds are pretty much unaffected as they can simply block the CC (much like CFrag or Destructive Reach). So to those builds it will be like the good old times, while the cheesy builds finally got some counterplay from sorcs.

    Fear and Fosilize should get the same treatment then though!
  • DDuke
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    Aedaryl wrote: »
    DDuke wrote: »
    OP is absolutely right, reducing the damage at this point is moot because they're also increasing sorc burst in this patch with new itemization (Balorgh) by far more than what the Rune Cage damage was.


    So in essence the unavoidable burst is even more than it was before, even if Cage itself deals no damage.

    I.e. it'll still result in all but tank builds getting evaporated with no feasible counterplay or chance to react.
    Abhaya wrote: »
    The counter play is to break free like you do with every other hard CC.

    Except you can't break free because you've already taken two light attacks, a frag & a curse (and possibly a Meteor as well) to the face before it is even physically possible to CC break, resulting in 20k+ damage instakill.

    Balorgh increase the all meteor combo by 340 spell damage, but spending a monster set for ultimate combo that happen every 56s can maybe not be that strong.


    We need number comparation to really be sure.

    340? You wish.

    It increases spell damage by 1000 if it consumes 500 ultimate (i.e. you use Meteor at 500 ulti) & I've already got the numbers from PTS:

    Comparing 2x Slimecraw to 2x Balorgh (500 ulti)*, hitting a target dummy:

    Shooting Star 39 193->43 992 - 4799 more burst | 2400 after Battle Spirit
    Curse 29 695->33 382 - 3687 more burst | 1843 after Battle Spirit
    Frag 36 700->41 392 - 4692 more burst | 2346 after Battle Spirit
    Light Attack 13 237->15 062 - 1825 more burst | 912 after Battle Spirit
    15 003 more burst with Balorgh, 7,5k'ish in PvP


    Needless to say, that's more than Rune Cage hits for on Live so people will still get one shot by uncounterable sorc burst - even more so than before.


    *Rest of the gear: 5x Spinner's 5x Destruction Mastery
  • ak_pvp
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    Galarthor wrote: »
    Frag Stun would still leave sorcs pretty powerless against perma-dodgers and perma-blockers.
    So we need something that allows sorcs to deal with these 2 cancerous builds but does not affect "normal" as much as the current rune cage does. Though I still stand by my assessment that it is really only the clunky CC break that makes it feel so powerful. And both DKs and NBs can be very burst as well and got undodgeable and unblockable CCs with gap closers to ensure they are in range.

    Nevertheless, to appease the situation I have the following suggestion, that achieves both counterplay to Rune Cage and counterplay on the side of the sorcs against perma-dodgers and perma-blockers.

    Keep Rune Cage undodgable, since the perma-dodgers are already able to evade most things and damage in PvP. Especially the single target sorc abilities (to which class Rune Cage belongs after all).

    But make it blockable with the added secondary effect that it increases the block costs of future blocks for X seconds. The secondary effect is neither dodgeable or blockable.

    The result:

    Sorcs have a tool to deal with perma dodgers, which they have struggled with since the creation of the game.
    Sorcs also have a way to deal with the perma-block meta builds, by draining their blocking resource.
    BUT regular builds are pretty much unaffected as they can simply block the CC (much like CFrag or Destructive Reach). So to those builds it will be like the good old times, while the cheesy builds finally got some counterplay from sorcs.

    Fear and Fosilize should get the same treatment then though!

    Both of those are melee, and have a lot less burst than a sorc. And in the case of DK specifically, the burst they do have is highly sacrificial.
    MagDK main. PC/EU @AK-ESO
    Best houseknight EU.
  • Kikke
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    omg? so now they reverted rune cage too the point were no sorc will use it again, and your still complaining?! WTF?!
    Cleared Trials:
    - vAA HM - vHRC HM - vSO HM - vMoL HM - vHoF HM - vAS HM - vCR HM -

    "The journey of a thousand miles begins with one step, and a lot of bitching."
    -Someone said it, I guess.
  • DDuke
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    kikkehs wrote: »
    omg? so now they reverted rune cage too the point were no sorc will use it again, and your still complaining?! WTF?!

    Undodgeable/unblockable CC that guarantees the highest burst in the entire game lands? Yeah, totally unusable...


    Here's a math/logic test:
    People currently complain about Rune Cage guaranteeing too much unavoidable burst damage and Rune Cage itself has a 9-10k tooltip in best case scenario.

    In Wolfhunter update the 9-10k tooltip damage from Rune Cage is removed, but by slotting a new item set sorcs get 15k more tooltip burst that is all completely unavoidable because of Rune Cage.


    Which one do you think is more problematic?
    Edited by DDuke on July 23, 2018 10:57PM
  • IAVITNI
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    DDuke wrote: »
    Aedaryl wrote: »
    DDuke wrote: »
    OP is absolutely right, reducing the damage at this point is moot because they're also increasing sorc burst in this patch with new itemization (Balorgh) by far more than what the Rune Cage damage was.


    So in essence the unavoidable burst is even more than it was before, even if Cage itself deals no damage.

    I.e. it'll still result in all but tank builds getting evaporated with no feasible counterplay or chance to react.
    Abhaya wrote: »
    The counter play is to break free like you do with every other hard CC.

    Except you can't break free because you've already taken two light attacks, a frag & a curse (and possibly a Meteor as well) to the face before it is even physically possible to CC break, resulting in 20k+ damage instakill.

    Balorgh increase the all meteor combo by 340 spell damage, but spending a monster set for ultimate combo that happen every 56s can maybe not be that strong.


    We need number comparation to really be sure.

    340? You wish.

    It increases spell damage by 1000 if it consumes 500 ultimate (i.e. you use Meteor at 500 ulti) & I've already got the numbers from PTS:

    Comparing 2x Slimecraw to 2x Balorgh (500 ulti)*, hitting a target dummy:

    Shooting Star 39 193->43 992 - 4799 more burst | 2400 after Battle Spirit
    Curse 29 695->33 382 - 3687 more burst | 1843 after Battle Spirit
    Frag 36 700->41 392 - 4692 more burst | 2346 after Battle Spirit
    Light Attack 13 237->15 062 - 1825 more burst | 912 after Battle Spirit
    15 003 more burst with Balorgh, 7,5k'ish in PvP


    Needless to say, that's more than Rune Cage hits for on Live so people will still get one shot by uncounterable sorc burst - even more so than before.


    *Rest of the gear: 5x Spinner's 5x Destruction Mastery

    First off, hyperbole. How does requiring around 3x the ultimate equate to "even more so than before"?

    Isn't that an extremely skewed example? A sorc isn't going be spamming meteors, nor do so with 500 ultimate and the above issue has more to do with Balorgh than meteor. Having to save 500 ultimate makes it no different from a DK or even NB burst w/ Balorgh. A DK or Nightblades burst with 500 ultimate Balorgh is going to be just as deadly because it's simply overkill damage after a certain point. You're going to an extreme to guarantee a kill which isn't even guaranteed. And don't bring range into it because a nb and DK can close gaps very easily, even against a magsorc which is supposed to use mobility as its main defence (in theory, obviously not practice)

    If you see meteor cast cloak, wings, cleanse, shield stack, Shimmering, pop an immovable or just CC the sorc. The combo has counters on live, the only problem is that those counters have significantly less uptime than the Cage combo. Without the damage, Sorc burst simply isn't there, so they only have kill potential with an ultimate dump now, which will share the same cooldown as many of the Cage's counters.

    Sorc burst without the Rune Cage damage is not strong enough to kill a proper build. If a player builds glass then they accept the risks with being squishy. If players are dying to the generic Curse-fury-frag combo, then that they need to build tankier or build to suit the game mode. I've DUELED medium builds that can survive the the Meteor combo. What these builds can't do on live is maintain resources dealing with the close to insta-burst every 10 seconds and then survive the second meteor combo. If they don't get hit by Rune Cage damage, they don't get hit by Fury execute which means they feel no real additional pressure for 3.5 seconds and can pop a vigor/shield and be right back in the fight.

    The damage nerf is a lot more than people who don't understand the sorc class realize. I ran Cage before it dealt damage and believe me, it makes a big difference. If you're going to present hard numbers, don't use extreme outliers and incorporate the fact that Sorcs are now missing out on 20k tooltip damage. The only builds that will die to sorcs without an ultimate now are outdated or glass-cannon specs.

    I'll shelf my sorc (already have, played it for a week of SS then went to stam sorc), not because I lost Cage, but because magsorc is such a mess right now. Funny how changing 1 tooltip damage takes the class from op to average.

    I'm all for removing Cage from the sorc kit but only if frags gets its CC back. Reach sorc is fine but it pidgeon holes the class with the least versatility in the game even further. Removing the damage is a compromise because despite ZoS reverting the Rune Cage changes, they refuse to do so for the Frag nerfs which threw the class completely out of balance.
  • DDuke
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    IAVITNI wrote: »
    DDuke wrote: »
    Aedaryl wrote: »
    DDuke wrote: »
    OP is absolutely right, reducing the damage at this point is moot because they're also increasing sorc burst in this patch with new itemization (Balorgh) by far more than what the Rune Cage damage was.


    So in essence the unavoidable burst is even more than it was before, even if Cage itself deals no damage.

    I.e. it'll still result in all but tank builds getting evaporated with no feasible counterplay or chance to react.
    Abhaya wrote: »
    The counter play is to break free like you do with every other hard CC.

    Except you can't break free because you've already taken two light attacks, a frag & a curse (and possibly a Meteor as well) to the face before it is even physically possible to CC break, resulting in 20k+ damage instakill.

    Balorgh increase the all meteor combo by 340 spell damage, but spending a monster set for ultimate combo that happen every 56s can maybe not be that strong.


    We need number comparation to really be sure.

    340? You wish.

    It increases spell damage by 1000 if it consumes 500 ultimate (i.e. you use Meteor at 500 ulti) & I've already got the numbers from PTS:

    Comparing 2x Slimecraw to 2x Balorgh (500 ulti)*, hitting a target dummy:

    Shooting Star 39 193->43 992 - 4799 more burst | 2400 after Battle Spirit
    Curse 29 695->33 382 - 3687 more burst | 1843 after Battle Spirit
    Frag 36 700->41 392 - 4692 more burst | 2346 after Battle Spirit
    Light Attack 13 237->15 062 - 1825 more burst | 912 after Battle Spirit
    15 003 more burst with Balorgh, 7,5k'ish in PvP


    Needless to say, that's more than Rune Cage hits for on Live so people will still get one shot by uncounterable sorc burst - even more so than before.


    *Rest of the gear: 5x Spinner's 5x Destruction Mastery

    First off, hyperbole. How does requiring around 3x the ultimate equate to "even more so than before"?

    You get one shot "even more so than before" - as in, the maximum burst these builds deliver to you is even more than in previous patch (in which it already resulted in unavoidable death for non-tank builds).

    It means RC combo will be able to kill even tankier targets than previous patch as long as it is unavoidable.
    IAVITNI wrote: »
    Isn't that an extremely skewed example? A sorc isn't going be spamming meteors, nor do so with 500 ultimate and the above issue has more to do with Balorgh than meteor. Having to save 500 ultimate makes it no different from a DK or even NB burst w/ Balorgh. A DK or Nightblades burst with 500 ultimate Balorgh is going to be just as deadly because it's simply overkill damage after a certain point. You're going to an extreme to guarantee a kill which isn't even guaranteed. And don't bring range into it because a nb and DK can close gaps very easily, even against a magsorc which is supposed to use mobility as its main defence (in theory, obviously not practice)

    No, but a good player doesn't use Meteor on cooldown anyway.

    The frequency of these bursts doesn't matter though because it's game over after the first Meteor.


    And please, don't even mention DK or NB burst in the same sentence with Sorcs.

    Sorc burst is over 50% more damage than either of those (I can dig up a post where I have numbers carefully detailed), damage which all gets amplified by +1000 spell damage - meaning it widens the difference even more.

    And just as easily as some builds can use gap closers, I can dodge roll out of Fear range & cloak to prevent Fossilize every time they try that...


    So these classes have over 400% worse range on their hard CC and 50% worse burst, but somehow they're "no different"? Please.


    Not to mention that if you react quick enough by CC breaking & dodging you can avoid all burst damage after Fear (https://youtu.be/q2oUzes2_xE) and all burst damage except Leap after Fossilize.
    IAVITNI wrote: »
    If you see meteor cast cloak, wings, cleanse, shield stack, Shimmering, pop an immovable or just CC the sorc. The combo has counters on live, the only problem is that those counters have significantly less uptime than the Cage combo. Without the damage, Sorc burst simply isn't there, so they only have kill potential with an ultimate dump now, which will share the same cooldown as many of the Cage's counters.

    Why does this remind me of the "just purge it" response to Sloads? Some of you really go to great lengths to defend your "I-Win buttons".

    It's good you atleast acknowledge these "counters" have less uptime than RC combos & some of them (like cloak) don't work at all in certain circumstances.
    IAVITNI wrote: »
    Sorc burst without the Rune Cage damage is not strong enough to kill a proper build. If a player builds glass then they accept the risks with being squishy. If players are dying to the generic Curse-fury-frag combo, then that they need to build tankier or build to suit the game mode. I've DUELED medium builds that can survive the the Meteor combo. What these builds can't do on live is maintain resources dealing with the close to insta-burst every 10 seconds and then survive the second meteor combo. If they don't get hit by Rune Cage damage, they don't get hit by Fury execute which means they feel no real additional pressure for 3.5 seconds and can pop a vigor/shield and be right back in the fight.

    Really, we have to just "accept the risks of being squishy" and die to unavoidable burst? So how about sorcs who build even squishier and then hide behind 30k shield stacks - are they exempt from this rule?

    I've tested RC combo without Meteor on medium armor builds that sacrifice most of their damage by slotting sets like Impregnable, here's an example: https://youtu.be/NhH3-fOLMeU


    The damage isn't survivable now if you build at all for dmg on Sorc, and it sure as hell won't be next patch when there's even more damage.
    IAVITNI wrote: »
    The damage nerf is a lot more than people who don't understand the sorc class realize. I ran Cage before it dealt damage and believe me, it makes a big difference. If you're going to present hard numbers, don't use extreme outliers and incorporate the fact that Sorcs are now missing out on 20k tooltip damage. The only builds that will die to sorcs without an ultimate now are outdated or glass-cannon specs.

    What exactly is wrong with my numbers & what do you mean by "missing out on 20k tooltip damage"? Highest RC tooltip I've got was around 10k.


    Sorc burst in Wolfhunter is higher, not lower.
    IAVITNI wrote: »
    I'll shelf my sorc (already have, played it for a week of SS then went to stam sorc), not because I lost Cage, but because magsorc is such a mess right now. Funny how changing 1 tooltip damage takes the class from op to average.

    I'm all for removing Cage from the sorc kit but only if frags gets its CC back. Reach sorc is fine but it pidgeon holes the class with the least versatility in the game even further. Removing the damage is a compromise because despite ZoS reverting the Rune Cage changes, they refuse to do so for the Frag nerfs which threw the class completely out of balance.

    The skill would be more balanced if it kept the damage but was dodgeable as mentioned in last ESO Live.

    Current iteration of RC fixes none of the issues as long as the maximum guaranteed burst remains higher than non-tank builds' health pools.


    Skills that enable huge amounts of burst to land and have no real counterplay can never be balanced and will always limit ZOS's itemization design and/or players' build diversity - there needs to be a feasible way to prevent getting Rune Caged & then hit by the highest burst damage in the game.
    Edited by DDuke on July 24, 2018 12:29AM
  • Jsmalls
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    DDuke wrote: »
    IAVITNI wrote: »
    DDuke wrote: »
    Aedaryl wrote: »
    DDuke wrote: »
    OP is absolutely right, reducing the damage at this point is moot because they're also increasing sorc burst in this patch with new itemization (Balorgh) by far more than what the Rune Cage damage was.


    So in essence the unavoidable burst is even more than it was before, even if Cage itself deals no damage.

    I.e. it'll still result in all but tank builds getting evaporated with no feasible counterplay or chance to react.
    Abhaya wrote: »
    The counter play is to break free like you do with every other hard CC.

    Except you can't break free because you've already taken two light attacks, a frag & a curse (and possibly a Meteor as well) to the face before it is even physically possible to CC break, resulting in 20k+ damage instakill.

    Balorgh increase the all meteor combo by 340 spell damage, but spending a monster set for ultimate combo that happen every 56s can maybe not be that strong.


    We need number comparation to really be sure.

    340? You wish.

    It increases spell damage by 1000 if it consumes 500 ultimate (i.e. you use Meteor at 500 ulti) & I've already got the numbers from PTS:

    Comparing 2x Slimecraw to 2x Balorgh (500 ulti)*, hitting a target dummy:

    Shooting Star 39 193->43 992 - 4799 more burst | 2400 after Battle Spirit
    Curse 29 695->33 382 - 3687 more burst | 1843 after Battle Spirit
    Frag 36 700->41 392 - 4692 more burst | 2346 after Battle Spirit
    Light Attack 13 237->15 062 - 1825 more burst | 912 after Battle Spirit
    15 003 more burst with Balorgh, 7,5k'ish in PvP


    Needless to say, that's more than Rune Cage hits for on Live so people will still get one shot by uncounterable sorc burst - even more so than before.


    *Rest of the gear: 5x Spinner's 5x Destruction Mastery

    First off, hyperbole. How does requiring around 3x the ultimate equate to "even more so than before"?

    You get one shot "even more so than before" - as in, the maximum burst these builds deliver to you is even more than in previous patch (in which it already resulted in unavoidable death for non-tank builds).

    It means RC combo will be able to kill even tankier targets than previous patch as long as it is unavoidable.
    IAVITNI wrote: »
    Isn't that an extremely skewed example? A sorc isn't going be spamming meteors, nor do so with 500 ultimate and the above issue has more to do with Balorgh than meteor. Having to save 500 ultimate makes it no different from a DK or even NB burst w/ Balorgh. A DK or Nightblades burst with 500 ultimate Balorgh is going to be just as deadly because it's simply overkill damage after a certain point. You're going to an extreme to guarantee a kill which isn't even guaranteed. And don't bring range into it because a nb and DK can close gaps very easily, even against a magsorc which is supposed to use mobility as its main defence (in theory, obviously not practice)

    No, but a good player doesn't use Meteor on cooldown anyway.

    The frequency of these bursts doesn't matter though because it's game over after the first Meteor.


    And please, don't even mention DK or NB burst in the same sentence with Sorcs.

    Sorc burst is over 50% more damage than either of those (I can dig up a post where I have numbers carefully detailed), damage which all gets amplified by +1000 spell damage - meaning it widens the difference even more.

    And just as easily as some builds can use gap closers, I can dodge roll out of Fear range & cloak to prevent Fossilize every time they try that...


    So these classes have over 400% worse range on their hard CC and 50% worse burst, but somehow they're "no different"? Please.


    Not to mention that if you react quick enough by CC breaking & dodging you can avoid all burst damage after Fear (https://youtu.be/q2oUzes2_xE) and all burst damage except Leap after Fossilize.
    IAVITNI wrote: »
    If you see meteor cast cloak, wings, cleanse, shield stack, Shimmering, pop an immovable or just CC the sorc. The combo has counters on live, the only problem is that those counters have significantly less uptime than the Cage combo. Without the damage, Sorc burst simply isn't there, so they only have kill potential with an ultimate dump now, which will share the same cooldown as many of the Cage's counters.

    Why does this remind me of the "just purge it" response to Sloads? Some of you really go to great lengths to defend your "I-Win buttons".

    It's good you atleast acknowledge these "counters" have less uptime than RC combos & some of them (like cloak) don't work at all in certain circumstances.
    IAVITNI wrote: »
    Sorc burst without the Rune Cage damage is not strong enough to kill a proper build. If a player builds glass then they accept the risks with being squishy. If players are dying to the generic Curse-fury-frag combo, then that they need to build tankier or build to suit the game mode. I've DUELED medium builds that can survive the the Meteor combo. What these builds can't do on live is maintain resources dealing with the close to insta-burst every 10 seconds and then survive the second meteor combo. If they don't get hit by Rune Cage damage, they don't get hit by Fury execute which means they feel no real additional pressure for 3.5 seconds and can pop a vigor/shield and be right back in the fight.

    Really, we have to just "accept the risks of being squishy" and die to unavoidable burst? So how about sorcs who build even squishier and then hide behind 30k shield stacks - are they exempt from this rule?

    I've tested RC combo without Meteor on medium armor builds that sacrifice most of their damage by slotting sets like Impregnable, here's an example: https://youtu.be/NhH3-fOLMeU


    The damage isn't survivable now if you build at all for dmg on Sorc, and it sure as hell won't be next patch when there's even more damage.
    IAVITNI wrote: »
    The damage nerf is a lot more than people who don't understand the sorc class realize. I ran Cage before it dealt damage and believe me, it makes a big difference. If you're going to present hard numbers, don't use extreme outliers and incorporate the fact that Sorcs are now missing out on 20k tooltip damage. The only builds that will die to sorcs without an ultimate now are outdated or glass-cannon specs.

    What exactly is wrong with my numbers & what do you mean by "missing out on 20k tooltip damage"? Highest RC tooltip I've got was around 10k.


    Sorc burst in Wolfhunter is higher, not lower.
    IAVITNI wrote: »
    I'll shelf my sorc (already have, played it for a week of SS then went to stam sorc), not because I lost Cage, but because magsorc is such a mess right now. Funny how changing 1 tooltip damage takes the class from op to average.

    I'm all for removing Cage from the sorc kit but only if frags gets its CC back. Reach sorc is fine but it pidgeon holes the class with the least versatility in the game even further. Removing the damage is a compromise because despite ZoS reverting the Rune Cage changes, they refuse to do so for the Frag nerfs which threw the class completely out of balance.

    The skill would be more balanced if it kept the damage but was dodgeable as mentioned in last ESO Live.

    Current iteration of RC fixes none of the issues as long as the maximum guaranteed burst remains higher than non-tank builds' health pools.


    Skills that enable huge amounts of burst to land and have no real counterplay can never be balanced and will always limit ZOS's itemization design and/or players' build diversity - there needs to be a feasible way to prevent getting Rune Caged & then hit by the highest burst damage in the game.

    @DDuke

    Holy ***, this entire post revolves around spending 500 ultimate and gaining 1000 spell damage from a new set. You think a DK with a meteor fossilize won't have the same strength? Or a nightblade with that kind of damage increase on an incap?

    And fyi that 20k tooltip is pulled from the 8k rune cage that is removed and the 12k endless fury that no longer goes off because the player will remain above 20% through the burst.

    Your opinion is so bias that you're taking a new monster set available to everyone and directly applying it to MagSorcs so it's going to make ONLY them overpowered.

    We already have dawnbreakers nearly one shotting players, incaps reversing fights, leaps doing 20k to players, and the list goes on... Imagine THOSE with an additional 1k weapon/spell damage.

    Drop your agenda, and open your eyes. MagSorc were a subpar class 2 patches ago and they will be a subpar class when they revert the thing that pushed us into a higher tier PvP class.

    You complain about being one shot when a MagSorc is forced into this style of gameplay, and is so pigeonholed into it that if a player is built to survive their "OP burst" the MagSorc has no hope of killing that player because once it goes off, there is no follow up. The next one will come 4 seconds later best case scenario, when you're at full health again. But you're fine with that because it makes MagSorcs Cannon fodder and a nonthreat.
    Edited by Jsmalls on July 24, 2018 2:19AM
  • DDuke
    DDuke
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    Jsmalls wrote: »
    DDuke wrote: »
    IAVITNI wrote: »
    DDuke wrote: »
    Aedaryl wrote: »
    DDuke wrote: »
    OP is absolutely right, reducing the damage at this point is moot because they're also increasing sorc burst in this patch with new itemization (Balorgh) by far more than what the Rune Cage damage was.


    So in essence the unavoidable burst is even more than it was before, even if Cage itself deals no damage.

    I.e. it'll still result in all but tank builds getting evaporated with no feasible counterplay or chance to react.
    Abhaya wrote: »
    The counter play is to break free like you do with every other hard CC.

    Except you can't break free because you've already taken two light attacks, a frag & a curse (and possibly a Meteor as well) to the face before it is even physically possible to CC break, resulting in 20k+ damage instakill.

    Balorgh increase the all meteor combo by 340 spell damage, but spending a monster set for ultimate combo that happen every 56s can maybe not be that strong.


    We need number comparation to really be sure.

    340? You wish.

    It increases spell damage by 1000 if it consumes 500 ultimate (i.e. you use Meteor at 500 ulti) & I've already got the numbers from PTS:

    Comparing 2x Slimecraw to 2x Balorgh (500 ulti)*, hitting a target dummy:

    Shooting Star 39 193->43 992 - 4799 more burst | 2400 after Battle Spirit
    Curse 29 695->33 382 - 3687 more burst | 1843 after Battle Spirit
    Frag 36 700->41 392 - 4692 more burst | 2346 after Battle Spirit
    Light Attack 13 237->15 062 - 1825 more burst | 912 after Battle Spirit
    15 003 more burst with Balorgh, 7,5k'ish in PvP


    Needless to say, that's more than Rune Cage hits for on Live so people will still get one shot by uncounterable sorc burst - even more so than before.


    *Rest of the gear: 5x Spinner's 5x Destruction Mastery

    First off, hyperbole. How does requiring around 3x the ultimate equate to "even more so than before"?

    You get one shot "even more so than before" - as in, the maximum burst these builds deliver to you is even more than in previous patch (in which it already resulted in unavoidable death for non-tank builds).

    It means RC combo will be able to kill even tankier targets than previous patch as long as it is unavoidable.
    IAVITNI wrote: »
    Isn't that an extremely skewed example? A sorc isn't going be spamming meteors, nor do so with 500 ultimate and the above issue has more to do with Balorgh than meteor. Having to save 500 ultimate makes it no different from a DK or even NB burst w/ Balorgh. A DK or Nightblades burst with 500 ultimate Balorgh is going to be just as deadly because it's simply overkill damage after a certain point. You're going to an extreme to guarantee a kill which isn't even guaranteed. And don't bring range into it because a nb and DK can close gaps very easily, even against a magsorc which is supposed to use mobility as its main defence (in theory, obviously not practice)

    No, but a good player doesn't use Meteor on cooldown anyway.

    The frequency of these bursts doesn't matter though because it's game over after the first Meteor.


    And please, don't even mention DK or NB burst in the same sentence with Sorcs.

    Sorc burst is over 50% more damage than either of those (I can dig up a post where I have numbers carefully detailed), damage which all gets amplified by +1000 spell damage - meaning it widens the difference even more.

    And just as easily as some builds can use gap closers, I can dodge roll out of Fear range & cloak to prevent Fossilize every time they try that...


    So these classes have over 400% worse range on their hard CC and 50% worse burst, but somehow they're "no different"? Please.


    Not to mention that if you react quick enough by CC breaking & dodging you can avoid all burst damage after Fear (https://youtu.be/q2oUzes2_xE) and all burst damage except Leap after Fossilize.
    IAVITNI wrote: »
    If you see meteor cast cloak, wings, cleanse, shield stack, Shimmering, pop an immovable or just CC the sorc. The combo has counters on live, the only problem is that those counters have significantly less uptime than the Cage combo. Without the damage, Sorc burst simply isn't there, so they only have kill potential with an ultimate dump now, which will share the same cooldown as many of the Cage's counters.

    Why does this remind me of the "just purge it" response to Sloads? Some of you really go to great lengths to defend your "I-Win buttons".

    It's good you atleast acknowledge these "counters" have less uptime than RC combos & some of them (like cloak) don't work at all in certain circumstances.
    IAVITNI wrote: »
    Sorc burst without the Rune Cage damage is not strong enough to kill a proper build. If a player builds glass then they accept the risks with being squishy. If players are dying to the generic Curse-fury-frag combo, then that they need to build tankier or build to suit the game mode. I've DUELED medium builds that can survive the the Meteor combo. What these builds can't do on live is maintain resources dealing with the close to insta-burst every 10 seconds and then survive the second meteor combo. If they don't get hit by Rune Cage damage, they don't get hit by Fury execute which means they feel no real additional pressure for 3.5 seconds and can pop a vigor/shield and be right back in the fight.

    Really, we have to just "accept the risks of being squishy" and die to unavoidable burst? So how about sorcs who build even squishier and then hide behind 30k shield stacks - are they exempt from this rule?

    I've tested RC combo without Meteor on medium armor builds that sacrifice most of their damage by slotting sets like Impregnable, here's an example: https://youtu.be/NhH3-fOLMeU


    The damage isn't survivable now if you build at all for dmg on Sorc, and it sure as hell won't be next patch when there's even more damage.
    IAVITNI wrote: »
    The damage nerf is a lot more than people who don't understand the sorc class realize. I ran Cage before it dealt damage and believe me, it makes a big difference. If you're going to present hard numbers, don't use extreme outliers and incorporate the fact that Sorcs are now missing out on 20k tooltip damage. The only builds that will die to sorcs without an ultimate now are outdated or glass-cannon specs.

    What exactly is wrong with my numbers & what do you mean by "missing out on 20k tooltip damage"? Highest RC tooltip I've got was around 10k.


    Sorc burst in Wolfhunter is higher, not lower.
    IAVITNI wrote: »
    I'll shelf my sorc (already have, played it for a week of SS then went to stam sorc), not because I lost Cage, but because magsorc is such a mess right now. Funny how changing 1 tooltip damage takes the class from op to average.

    I'm all for removing Cage from the sorc kit but only if frags gets its CC back. Reach sorc is fine but it pidgeon holes the class with the least versatility in the game even further. Removing the damage is a compromise because despite ZoS reverting the Rune Cage changes, they refuse to do so for the Frag nerfs which threw the class completely out of balance.

    The skill would be more balanced if it kept the damage but was dodgeable as mentioned in last ESO Live.

    Current iteration of RC fixes none of the issues as long as the maximum guaranteed burst remains higher than non-tank builds' health pools.


    Skills that enable huge amounts of burst to land and have no real counterplay can never be balanced and will always limit ZOS's itemization design and/or players' build diversity - there needs to be a feasible way to prevent getting Rune Caged & then hit by the highest burst damage in the game.

    @DDuke

    Holy ***, this entire post revolves around spending 500 ultimate and gaining 1000 spell damage from a new set. You think a DK with a meteor fossilize won't have the same strength? Or a nightblade with that kind of damage increase on an incap?

    I know for a fact it wont.

    When the sorc burst gets boosted by 15k tooltip damage, the DK/NB equivalent will only gain around 7-8k'ish.

    Spell damage amplifies the burst that is already there, it's not a flat "deal X damage" proc (in which case it'd affect everyone equally).
    Jsmalls wrote: »
    And fyi that 20k tooltip is pulled from the 8k rune cage that is removed and the 12k endless fury that no longer goes off because the player will remain above 20% through the burst.

    So somehow even when the total burst of Rune Cage combo goes up by about 6-7k tooltip dmg (despite Rune Cage itself losing its damage), people are suddenly going to remain above 20% through the burst, which is something they fail to do now on Live where the combo deals less damage?

    I'm sorry but you're making no sense.
    Jsmalls wrote: »
    Your opinion is so bias that you're taking a new monster set available to everyone and directly applying it to MagSorcs so it's going to make ONLY them overpowered.

    Actually I'm looking at it objectively: you pick the highest burst damage combo in the game & then you apply this set to that burst to see what is possible.

    I couldn't care less if this set made only NBs & DKs deal 15k more damage, they still wouldn't be the thing I worry about.
    Jsmalls wrote: »
    We already have dawnbreakers nearly one shotting players, incaps reversing fights, leaps doing 20k to players, and the list goes on... Imagine THOSE with an additional 1k weapon/spell damage.

    Yeah, those things have something in common: they can be blocked/dodged. And they deal less damage than sorc burst.


    I don't need to "imagine" those with an additional 1k weapon/spell damage, I've already tested DBOS & Incap bursts on PTS.
    Jsmalls wrote: »
    Drop your agenda, and open your eyes. MagSorc were a subpar class 2 patches ago and they will be a subpar class when they revert the thing that pushed us into a higher tier PvP class.

    "MagSorc" and "subpar" don't belong in the same sentence - they've never been that (not during the 4 years I've played this game) and they've always been the second most popular class after NB.
    Jsmalls wrote: »
    You complain about being one shot when a MagSorc is forced into this style of gameplay, and is so pigeonholed into it that if a player is built to survive their "OP burst" the MagSorc has no hope of killing that player because once it goes off, there is no follow up. The next one will come 4 seconds later best case scenario, when you're at full health again. But you're fine with that because it makes MagSorcs Cannon fodder and a nonthreat.

    I don't "complain about being one shot" - I do that to other people all the time with my bow build & hypocrisy doesn't look good on me.


    I complain about not having any feasible ways of avoiding that one shot burst.
    Edited by DDuke on July 24, 2018 2:40AM
  • IAVITNI
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    DDuke wrote: »

    No, but a good player doesn't use Meteor on cooldown anyway.

    The frequency of these bursts doesn't matter though because it's game over after the first Meteor.


    And please, don't even mention DK or NB burst in the same sentence with Sorcs.

    Sorc burst is over 50% more damage than either of those (I can dig up a post where I have numbers carefully detailed), damage which all gets amplified by +1000 spell damage - meaning it widens the difference even more.

    And just as easily as some builds can use gap closers, I can dodge roll out of Fear range & cloak to prevent Fossilize every time they try that...


    So these classes have over 400% worse range on their hard CC and 50% worse burst, but somehow they're "no different"? Please.
    The point of brining up mDk and nb is that with the scenario you set forth with Balorgh, the extra damage gained at 500 ultimate is redundant; ergo any class in the scenario you proposed will be able to instaburst a non-tank build suggesting that the set is more of a problem than the class.

    DDuke wrote: »


    Not to mention that if you react quick enough by CC breaking & dodging you can avoid all burst damage after Fear (https://youtu.be/q2oUzes2_xE) and all burst damage except Leap after Fossilize.
    IAVITNI wrote: »
    If you see meteor cast cloak, wings, cleanse, shield stack, Shimmering, pop an immovable or just CC the sorc. The combo has counters on live, the only problem is that those counters have significantly less uptime than the Cage combo. Without the damage, Sorc burst simply isn't there, so they only have kill potential with an ultimate dump now, which will share the same cooldown as many of the Cage's counters.
    Why does this remind me of the "just purge it" response to Sloads? Some of you really go to great lengths to defend your "I-Win buttons".

    It's good you atleast acknowledge these "counters" have less uptime than RC combos & some of them (like cloak) don't work at all in certain circumstances.
    There's a pretty big difference between "just purge it" and the counters I listed. 1 being that all those counters are actually meta skills, so most builds aren't sacrificing anything and another being that the skills listed aren't being slotted solely to counter 1 mechanic.

    The only stam class I have in heavy is my sDK. Every other class runs medium and I've dueled sorcs of equal or greater skill level. There are counters. Is it overbearing on live? Yes. But is it void of counterplay? On live, it is void of consistent counterplay but with the damage removed from Rune Cage, the only time a sorc will be a threat is when they have ultimate, and a very costly one at that. The combo doesn't work quite the same with DB. In fact, I'll be swapping back to DB over Meteor because Meteor is simply unreliable relatively. It
    DDuke wrote: »
    IAVITNI wrote: »
    Sorc burst without the Rune Cage damage is not strong enough to kill a proper build. If a player builds glass then they accept the risks with being squishy. If players are dying to the generic Curse-fury-frag combo, then that they need to build tankier or build to suit the game mode. I've DUELED medium builds that can survive the the Meteor combo. What these builds can't do on live is maintain resources dealing with the close to insta-burst every 10 seconds and then survive the second meteor combo. If they don't get hit by Rune Cage damage, they don't get hit by Fury execute which means they feel no real additional pressure for 3.5 seconds and can pop a vigor/shield and be right back in the fight.

    Really, we have to just "accept the risks of being squishy" and die to unavoidable burst? So how about sorcs who build even squishier and then hide behind 30k shield stacks - are they exempt from this rule?

    I've tested RC combo without Meteor on medium armor builds that sacrifice most of their damage by slotting sets like Impregnable, here's an example: https://youtu.be/NhH3-fOLMeU


    The damage isn't survivable now if you build at all for dmg on Sorc, and it sure as hell won't be next patch when there's even more damage.
    I'm not talking about the buggy animation which I agree should be fixed for proper counter play and fluidity for both parties. What I'm referring to is the damage nerf having a bigger impact than you realize. If I build full damage on a sorc I'm dueling so I'm assuming you're not referring to duel builds. Open world sorcs tend to build more into sustain. I've fought magsorcs 1v1 on my NB that runs all offensive medium sets with only 2 health glyphs being my commitment to mitigation. I've gone back and forth with good players that I know are just as good if not better than me because I main magsorc, I understand the class and therefore I know how to fight it.

    The damage is definitely survivable now, except you want to survive it on a build that even you admit is glass. You run stealth builds so if you're caught out long enough to have a full Curse-fury-meteor-Rune-Frag combo that's more on you.
    DDuke wrote: »
    IAVITNI wrote: »
    The damage nerf is a lot more than people who don't understand the sorc class realize. I ran Cage before it dealt damage and believe me, it makes a big difference. If you're going to present hard numbers, don't use extreme outliers and incorporate the fact that Sorcs are now missing out on 20k tooltip damage. The only builds that will die to sorcs without an ultimate now are outdated or glass-cannon specs.

    What exactly is wrong with my numbers & what do you mean by "missing out on 20k tooltip damage"? Highest RC tooltip I've got was around 10k.


    Sorc burst in Wolfhunter is higher, not lower.
    You're numbers are mathematically correct. But how many times have you gone to a grocery and seen some lady named Susan walking out with 100 Watermelons? That's simply not how it works in practice. For all your damage calculations, prior to the damage on Rune, very rarely did a magsorc get a competent opponent from full health to execute range in 1 combo. Even with an ultimate dump, you would need a few rotations to wait for your opponent to mess up. Without the Rune damage (well drop it to a 7.5k tooltip) a non-glass opponent isn't going to fall into execute which means thats Fury (15k tooltip) isn't going to go off.

    If you want a real example, subtract Vigor and Rally/FM ticks for all stam classes, remove Curse for Magplars, remove Frags for mDKs and a good portion of sDKs who are going to run wings for snare removal, remove frags for a magden due to shimmering and apply minor protection, remove or half the damage of frags since nightblades can cloak them--apply minor Maim for mNBs etc.. You're numbers are right. If you're fighting a potato.
    DDuke wrote: »
    IAVITNI wrote: »
    I'll shelf my sorc (already have, played it for a week of SS then went to stam sorc), not because I lost Cage, but because magsorc is such a mess right now. Funny how changing 1 tooltip damage takes the class from op to average.

    I'm all for removing Cage from the sorc kit but only if frags gets its CC back. Reach sorc is fine but it pidgeon holes the class with the least versatility in the game even further. Removing the damage is a compromise because despite ZoS reverting the Rune Cage changes, they refuse to do so for the Frag nerfs which threw the class completely out of balance.

    The skill would be more balanced if it kept the damage but was dodgeable as mentioned in last ESO Live.

    Current iteration of RC fixes none of the issues as long as the maximum guaranteed burst remains higher than non-tank builds' health pools.
    No, it wouldn't be more balanced, it would be beneficial to glass-cannon roll dodge builds and useless to magsorcs who will just slot Clench because it will simply be better overall and magsorcs are back to potato farming.
    DDuke wrote: »

    Skills that enable huge amounts of burst to land and have no real counterplay can never be balanced and will always limit ZOS's itemization design and/or players' build diversity - there needs to be a feasible way to prevent getting Rune Caged & then hit by the highest burst damage in the game.

    Now this is a valid argument. Everything else you said is just bias towards your preferred play style. However, there are feasible ways to prevent getting Rune Caged. The damage is no longer as threatening because the normal burst is losing out on +20k tooltip damage. You simply refuse to adapt. Honestly, stop using your build as a baseline because all you're doing is proliferating misleading information about sorcs that will lead to them being nerfed/buffed in the wrong areas--ZoS' preferred balance strategy. Be like @BohnT BohnT's argument is that no class should have access to both unavoidable damage and unblockable/unavoidable CC. Make that the basis of your argument @DDuke and you'll get more support instead of presenting half truths.

    Everyone else has had to build tankier ever since SS. Medium armor builds tend to run 1 defensive set (except cloak blades) and while Heavy still runs 2 offensive or 1 mixed set (BP) IMO, this is indicative of balance since heavy and medium tend to build towards each other. All that's left is to nerf shield stacking so they can buff individual shields so that light armor is viable on all classes.

    But guess what. That will never happen until mag sorc is balanced. Prior to the frag nerfs m sorc was only overperforming defensively but people who don't understand the class complained about it's burst and mSorc was gutted to the point where ZoS felt an unblockable/undodgable CC that dealt 4k damage was necessary for balance. On live it over performs everywhere but completely gutting Rune Cage will make the class bottom tier.

    Again. I'll end with the fact that I FULLY SUPPORT removing Rune Cage entirely IF AND ONLY IF sorcs are compensated by having Frags unnerved. Come on ZoS. You reverted 1 change, now revert that one that matters.
    Edited by IAVITNI on July 24, 2018 3:28AM
  • ruikkarikun
    ruikkarikun
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    You all guys want more situation when tank stay face against 20 zerg? All classes need to have some controll.
  • Derra
    Derra
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    DDuke wrote: »

    Needless to say, that's more than Rune Cage hits for on Live so people will still get one shot by uncounterable sorc burst - even more so than before.

    Just that it will now cost 500 ulti and no longer work on rotations without ulti.

    I don´t think it´ll be more so than before - atleast when looking at the frequency that it happens.

    That being said - yeh can we just remove offensive cage? Make defensive rune tha base morph - one deals dmg one gives a debuff for morphs.
    Bring back fragment CC.
    Offensive cage isn´t balanceable.
    <Noricum>
    I live. I die. I live again.

    Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
    Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 50

  • Feanor
    Feanor
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    Itemization is now a Sorc class problem. Let’s nerf Sorc more because sets aren’t well designed. Brilliant.

    And an ultimate shouldn’t be able to kill you - if it’s used by a Sorc. Brave new world.
    Main characters: Feanor the Believer - AD Altmer mSorc - AR 46 - Flawless Conqueror (PC EU)Idril Arnanor - AD Altmer mSorc - CP 217 - Stormproof (PC NA)Other characters:
    Necrophilius Killgood - DC Imperial NecromancerFearscales - AD Argonian Templar - Stormproof (healer)Draco Imperialis - AD Imperial DK (tank)Cabed Naearamarth - AD Dunmer mDKValirion Willowthorne - AD Bosmer stamBladeTuruna - AD Altmer magBladeKheled Zaram - AD Redguard stamDKKibil Nala - AD Redguard stamSorc - StormproofYavanna Kémentárí - AD Breton magWardenAzog gro-Ghâsh - EP Orc stamWardenVidar Drakenblød - DC Nord mDKMarquis de Peyrac - DC Breton mSorc - StormproofRawlith Khaj'ra - AD Khajiit stamWardenTu'waccah - AD Redguard Stamplar
    All chars 50 @ CP 1700+. Playing and enjoying PvP with RdK mostly on PC EU.
  • seventyfive
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    The duration of the stun has to be lowered, OR the cost of the ability has to be significantly increased.

    Right now, the breakfree cost is more than twice the cost of the stun.

    End of story.
    Edited by seventyfive on July 24, 2018 10:06AM
  • DDuke
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    IAVITNI wrote: »
    DDuke wrote: »

    No, but a good player doesn't use Meteor on cooldown anyway.

    The frequency of these bursts doesn't matter though because it's game over after the first Meteor.


    And please, don't even mention DK or NB burst in the same sentence with Sorcs.

    Sorc burst is over 50% more damage than either of those (I can dig up a post where I have numbers carefully detailed), damage which all gets amplified by +1000 spell damage - meaning it widens the difference even more.

    And just as easily as some builds can use gap closers, I can dodge roll out of Fear range & cloak to prevent Fossilize every time they try that...


    So these classes have over 400% worse range on their hard CC and 50% worse burst, but somehow they're "no different"? Please.
    The point of brining up mDk and nb is that with the scenario you set forth with Balorgh, the extra damage gained at 500 ultimate is redundant; ergo any class in the scenario you proposed will be able to instaburst a non-tank build suggesting that the set is more of a problem than the class.

    No, because even when comparing Balorgh ulti burst with NB/DK to non-Balorgh ulti burst on Sorc the former two deal less unavoidable damage.

    It is always the class that is the problem, not the sets. Like let's say you have 76k "tooltip burst" on a Sorcerer & 55k on a NB. 21k more than NB, right?

    Now what happens if you add a set that gives +10% worth of damage?

    76 000+10%(7600)=83 600
    54 000+10%(5400)=59 400


    What do you know, the difference is now 24,2k in favour of Sorc & NB still doesn't even deal the same burst Sorc did before this set existed.


    Do you see the problem?

    IAVITNI wrote: »
    DDuke wrote: »
    Not to mention that if you react quick enough by CC breaking & dodging you can avoid all burst damage after Fear (https://youtu.be/q2oUzes2_xE) and all burst damage except Leap after Fossilize.
    IAVITNI wrote: »
    If you see meteor cast cloak, wings, cleanse, shield stack, Shimmering, pop an immovable or just CC the sorc. The combo has counters on live, the only problem is that those counters have significantly less uptime than the Cage combo. Without the damage, Sorc burst simply isn't there, so they only have kill potential with an ultimate dump now, which will share the same cooldown as many of the Cage's counters.
    Why does this remind me of the "just purge it" response to Sloads? Some of you really go to great lengths to defend your "I-Win buttons".

    It's good you atleast acknowledge these "counters" have less uptime than RC combos & some of them (like cloak) don't work at all in certain circumstances.
    There's a pretty big difference between "just purge it" and the counters I listed. 1 being that all those counters are actually meta skills, so most builds aren't sacrificing anything and another being that the skills listed aren't being slotted solely to counter 1 mechanic.

    The only stam class I have in heavy is my sDK. Every other class runs medium and I've dueled sorcs of equal or greater skill level. There are counters. Is it overbearing on live? Yes. But is it void of counterplay? On live, it is void of consistent counterplay but with the damage removed from Rune Cage, the only time a sorc will be a threat is when they have ultimate, and a very costly one at that. The combo doesn't work quite the same with DB. In fact, I'll be swapping back to DB over Meteor because Meteor is simply unreliable relatively. It

    So, a CC immune sorc with a det pot up decides to Meteor combo me - what exactly is my "counter" here as a stamblade? Or maybe some random pug threw Caltrops over me or Piercing Marked me.

    In a perfect world you can cloak after Meteor, but that perfect world isn't always there and you die without anything you can do about it.


    And what happens when I play my stam sorc that has zero ways of preventing Meteor combo (no, BoL doesn't work I've tested it)?

    Don't tell me to use invis pot.
    IAVITNI wrote: »
    DDuke wrote: »
    IAVITNI wrote: »
    Sorc burst without the Rune Cage damage is not strong enough to kill a proper build. If a player builds glass then they accept the risks with being squishy. If players are dying to the generic Curse-fury-frag combo, then that they need to build tankier or build to suit the game mode. I've DUELED medium builds that can survive the the Meteor combo. What these builds can't do on live is maintain resources dealing with the close to insta-burst every 10 seconds and then survive the second meteor combo. If they don't get hit by Rune Cage damage, they don't get hit by Fury execute which means they feel no real additional pressure for 3.5 seconds and can pop a vigor/shield and be right back in the fight.

    Really, we have to just "accept the risks of being squishy" and die to unavoidable burst? So how about sorcs who build even squishier and then hide behind 30k shield stacks - are they exempt from this rule?

    I've tested RC combo without Meteor on medium armor builds that sacrifice most of their damage by slotting sets like Impregnable, here's an example: https://youtu.be/NhH3-fOLMeU


    The damage isn't survivable now if you build at all for dmg on Sorc, and it sure as hell won't be next patch when there's even more damage.
    I'm not talking about the buggy animation which I agree should be fixed for proper counter play and fluidity for both parties. What I'm referring to is the damage nerf having a bigger impact than you realize. If I build full damage on a sorc I'm dueling so I'm assuming you're not referring to duel builds. Open world sorcs tend to build more into sustain. I've fought magsorcs 1v1 on my NB that runs all offensive medium sets with only 2 health glyphs being my commitment to mitigation. I've gone back and forth with good players that I know are just as good if not better than me because I main magsorc, I understand the class and therefore I know how to fight it.

    The damage is definitely survivable now, except you want to survive it on a build that even you admit is glass. You run stealth builds so if you're caught out long enough to have a full Curse-fury-meteor-Rune-Frag combo that's more on you.

    "If I build full damage on a sorc I'm dueling" < this is called bias, not everyone builds their characters like you in PvP (and I know many who use sustain sets in duels too).

    There's plenty of people who go all in on damage and that's perfectly fine - as long as their damage can be avoided by playing well.


    On that video I linked there's a stamblade with full tri-glyphs & Impregnable and he doesn't survive a non-Meteor combo. So no, it is not survivable on Live - especially in builds that actually want to kill people.

    If you don't build "glass" on a stamblade, you might as well slap on Master DW+Sloads (and better go heavy armor in that case) as your other sets or go into any of the dozen of "nerf shields" threads because that Brass/Impregnable/Protective jewelry zero burst stam build can't get through shields anymore.


    The difference between a stam character & a mSorc building glass is that one of them can still survive any burst after doing so because their defensive mechanic actually works in all scenarios.

    IAVITNI wrote: »
    DDuke wrote: »
    IAVITNI wrote: »
    The damage nerf is a lot more than people who don't understand the sorc class realize. I ran Cage before it dealt damage and believe me, it makes a big difference. If you're going to present hard numbers, don't use extreme outliers and incorporate the fact that Sorcs are now missing out on 20k tooltip damage. The only builds that will die to sorcs without an ultimate now are outdated or glass-cannon specs.

    What exactly is wrong with my numbers & what do you mean by "missing out on 20k tooltip damage"? Highest RC tooltip I've got was around 10k.


    Sorc burst in Wolfhunter is higher, not lower.
    You're numbers are mathematically correct. But how many times have you gone to a grocery and seen some lady named Susan walking out with 100 Watermelons? That's simply not how it works in practice. For all your damage calculations, prior to the damage on Rune, very rarely did a magsorc get a competent opponent from full health to execute range in 1 combo. Even with an ultimate dump, you would need a few rotations to wait for your opponent to mess up. Without the Rune damage (well drop it to a 7.5k tooltip) a non-glass opponent isn't going to fall into execute which means thats Fury (15k tooltip) isn't going to go off.

    If you want a real example, subtract Vigor and Rally/FM ticks for all stam classes, remove Curse for Magplars, remove Frags for mDKs and a good portion of sDKs who are going to run wings for snare removal, remove frags for a magden due to shimmering and apply minor protection, remove or half the damage of frags since nightblades can cloak them--apply minor Maim for mNBs etc.. You're numbers are right. If you're fighting a potato.

    NBs cannot cloak Frags or anything else for that matter if sorc uses det pot before ulti burst (or if NB simply cannot cloak due to some random AoE, Piercing Mark etc etc) & stam sorc has zero defensive mechanics to help them survive the burst.


    Other than that yes, some classes have ways to help them lower the damage from that combo.
    IAVITNI wrote: »
    DDuke wrote: »
    IAVITNI wrote: »
    I'll shelf my sorc (already have, played it for a week of SS then went to stam sorc), not because I lost Cage, but because magsorc is such a mess right now. Funny how changing 1 tooltip damage takes the class from op to average.

    I'm all for removing Cage from the sorc kit but only if frags gets its CC back. Reach sorc is fine but it pidgeon holes the class with the least versatility in the game even further. Removing the damage is a compromise because despite ZoS reverting the Rune Cage changes, they refuse to do so for the Frag nerfs which threw the class completely out of balance.

    The skill would be more balanced if it kept the damage but was dodgeable as mentioned in last ESO Live.

    Current iteration of RC fixes none of the issues as long as the maximum guaranteed burst remains higher than non-tank builds' health pools.
    No, it wouldn't be more balanced, it would be beneficial to glass-cannon roll dodge builds and useless to magsorcs who will just slot Clench because it will simply be better overall and magsorcs are back to potato farming.

    So it'd help the stamina builds that struggle the most vs mSorcs but still be good for fighting tank builds & other sorcs which tend to be more problematic... and somehow that would suddenly make the skill useless?


    You don't need "I-Win" buttons that take zero skill to use to fight dodge roll based builds & being able to bypass block/reflect and deal more burst damage is more important.

    Sorc already has the best toolkit in the game to deal with dodge rollers (including an actual balanced stun that goes through dodge roll: Streak).
    IAVITNI wrote: »
    DDuke wrote: »
    Skills that enable huge amounts of burst to land and have no real counterplay can never be balanced and will always limit ZOS's itemization design and/or players' build diversity - there needs to be a feasible way to prevent getting Rune Caged & then hit by the highest burst damage in the game.

    Now this is a valid argument. Everything else you said is just bias towards your preferred play style. However, there are feasible ways to prevent getting Rune Caged. The damage is no longer as threatening because the normal burst is losing out on +20k tooltip damage. You simply refuse to adapt. Honestly, stop using your build as a baseline because all you're doing is proliferating misleading information about sorcs that will lead to them being nerfed/buffed in the wrong areas--ZoS' preferred balance strategy. Be like @BohnT BohnT's argument is that no class should have access to both unavoidable damage and unblockable/unavoidable CC. Make that the basis of your argument @DDuke and you'll get more support instead of presenting half truths.

    So I should "adapt" and go play a meta tank build with bleeds & sloads, is that it? I'm going to keep using my build(s) as a baseline because those are the builds I (and many other people) actually enjoy playing - not the sload/bleed garbage that's everywhere.

    Speaking of "misleading information", you also can't call NB or DK damage "unavoidable" when all of it can be kited (and deals far less damage than Sorcs) and most of the follow up after those unblockable/undodgeable CCs can be avoided as well (no delayed burst like sorcs have).
    IAVITNI wrote: »
    Everyone else has had to build tankier ever since SS. Medium armor builds tend to run 1 defensive set (except cloak blades) and while Heavy still runs 2 offensive or 1 mixed set (BP) IMO, this is indicative of balance since heavy and medium tend to build towards each other. All that's left is to nerf shield stacking so they can buff individual shields so that light armor is viable on all classes.

    Yes, everyone has to build tankier... because of sorcs.

    Oh wait, hold on... not everyone. There are still builds that can stack full into magicka (i.e. full into damage) and survive behind 30k shield stacks.


    That's just the reality of the situation.

    Whether you think shield stacking should be nerfed or not (personal opinion: dmg shields are fine) is irrelevant.

    What they need to do is fix this Rune Cage bull*** so that medium armor (i.e. dodge roll based builds) is viable on all classes. Right now light armor can be played on any of the classes and is usually even BiS (mDK, magplar, mSorc, magblade... not sure about warden, they play weird max health builds these days).
    IAVITNI wrote: »
    But guess what. That will never happen until mag sorc is balanced. Prior to the frag nerfs m sorc was only overperforming defensively but people who don't understand the class complained about it's burst and mSorc was gutted to the point where ZoS felt an unblockable/undodgable CC that dealt 4k damage was necessary for balance. On live it over performs everywhere but completely gutting Rune Cage will make the class bottom tier.

    Yet I saw plenty of sorcs doing fine in CWC & Dragon Bones. Should I start linking videos?

    Sorc has always been either top tier (like right now & multiple different updates in the past) or close behind NB in power. It has never been "gutted" or "bottom tier".

    If you want to see bottom tier, go play mag warden. That's truly the only underperforming class at the moment.
    IAVITNI wrote: »
    Again. I'll end with the fact that I FULLY SUPPORT removing Rune Cage entirely IF AND ONLY IF sorcs are compensated by having Frags unnerved. Come on ZoS. You reverted 1 change, now revert that one that matters.

    So basically you only care about yourself and want to extort some unnecessary buffs from ZOS. Cool.


    I personally couldn't care less about Frag stun, but that's the wrong way to go about it.
    Edited by DDuke on July 24, 2018 10:26AM
  • Biro123
    Biro123
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    Feanor wrote: »
    Itemization is now a Sorc class problem. Let’s nerf Sorc more because sets aren’t well designed. Brilliant.

    And an ultimate shouldn’t be able to kill you - if it’s used by a Sorc. Brave new world.

    Itemisation was always a sorc problem if you listen to these forums. Don't you remember all the infinite sustain cos lich and huge mag pools cos necro complaints (among others)?

    Minalan owes me a beer.

    PC EU Megaserver
    Minie Mo - Stam/Magblade - DC
    Woody Ron - Stamplar - DC
    Aidee - Magsorc - DC
    Notadorf - Stamsorc - DC
    Khattman Doo - Stamblade - Relegated to Crafter, cos AD.
  • Feanor
    Feanor
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    Tbh, if Streak is now a balanced CC to deal with dodge rollers... rofl.
    Main characters: Feanor the Believer - AD Altmer mSorc - AR 46 - Flawless Conqueror (PC EU)Idril Arnanor - AD Altmer mSorc - CP 217 - Stormproof (PC NA)Other characters:
    Necrophilius Killgood - DC Imperial NecromancerFearscales - AD Argonian Templar - Stormproof (healer)Draco Imperialis - AD Imperial DK (tank)Cabed Naearamarth - AD Dunmer mDKValirion Willowthorne - AD Bosmer stamBladeTuruna - AD Altmer magBladeKheled Zaram - AD Redguard stamDKKibil Nala - AD Redguard stamSorc - StormproofYavanna Kémentárí - AD Breton magWardenAzog gro-Ghâsh - EP Orc stamWardenVidar Drakenblød - DC Nord mDKMarquis de Peyrac - DC Breton mSorc - StormproofRawlith Khaj'ra - AD Khajiit stamWardenTu'waccah - AD Redguard Stamplar
    All chars 50 @ CP 1700+. Playing and enjoying PvP with RdK mostly on PC EU.
  • DDuke
    DDuke
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    Feanor wrote: »
    Tbh, if Streak is now a balanced CC to deal with dodge rollers... rofl.

    Yes, it is - it doesn't guarantee one shots but you do get to pressure them (along with Curse procs & possibly pet damage).

    If you're good at sorc you could even count the distance right & land right next to that dodge roller with the Streak, throwing out a Frag before they can CC break+dodge roll.


    From dodge roller perspective, fighting a sorc has always been a fight with a timer: you've X amount of time before you
    1. Run out of health.
    2. Run out of stamina.

    ...and any mistake or slow CC break results in getting deleted.


    That's good balance - the better player wins (not the one with uncounterable burst).
    Edited by DDuke on July 24, 2018 10:44AM
  • Aedaryl
    Aedaryl
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    @DDuke the way you calcul and evaluate sorc as having the best burst is totaly wrong, and you only bring misinformation with your bad number.

    The real number in game make NB have better burst than sorc.

    Try to use your brain for seeing how the reality is and not how you think things are.

    If you don't find, I will bring you valuable and true, good number.
  • Skoomah
    Skoomah
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    Just remember guys: Sorcs can blow you up in 2 seconds flat from far away AND shield stack at will and never take damage to their health pool AND run away with streak spam AND immobilize up close with hard hitting mines or way far away with rune cage AND steal all your kills in BGs AND complete Maelstrom with just one skill bar AND sustain forever AND heal to full underneath 50k shields with resto ult.

    SUPERIOR Damage, Healing, Tankiness, Sustain, Mobility = Complete Class / FLAWLESS VICTORY

    FINISH HIM
  • Apherius
    Apherius
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    DDuke wrote: »
    Aedaryl wrote: »
    DDuke wrote: »
    OP is absolutely right, reducing the damage at this point is moot because they're also increasing sorc burst in this patch with new itemization (Balorgh) by far more than what the Rune Cage damage was.


    So in essence the unavoidable burst is even more than it was before, even if Cage itself deals no damage.

    I.e. it'll still result in all but tank builds getting evaporated with no feasible counterplay or chance to react.
    Abhaya wrote: »
    The counter play is to break free like you do with every other hard CC.

    Except you can't break free because you've already taken two light attacks, a frag & a curse (and possibly a Meteor as well) to the face before it is even physically possible to CC break, resulting in 20k+ damage instakill.

    Balorgh increase the all meteor combo by 340 spell damage, but spending a monster set for ultimate combo that happen every 56s can maybe not be that strong.


    We need number comparation to really be sure.

    340? You wish.

    It increases spell damage by 1000 if it consumes 500 ultimate (i.e. you use Meteor at 500 ulti) & I've already got the numbers from PTS:

    Comparing 2x Slimecraw to 2x Balorgh (500 ulti)*, hitting a target dummy:

    Shooting Star 39 193->43 992 - 4799 more burst | 2400 after Battle Spirit
    Curse 29 695->33 382 - 3687 more burst | 1843 after Battle Spirit
    Frag 36 700->41 392 - 4692 more burst | 2346 after Battle Spirit
    Light Attack 13 237->15 062 - 1825 more burst | 912 after Battle Spirit
    15 003 more burst with Balorgh, 7,5k'ish in PvP


    Needless to say, that's more than Rune Cage hits for on Live so people will still get one shot by uncounterable sorc burst - even more so than before.


    *Rest of the gear: 5x Spinner's 5x Destruction Mastery

    Nobody use these sets in pvp, except the gank builds ( spinner's/slimecraw/elegance) + They are squishy as hell and don't have any sustain.
    Even on a burst build ... any player who plan to use a meteor at 500 ulti .. Would need to get these 500 ulti ... and you would die before you get them with these sets ... by sustain issue ( 1/2 CC and paf you are dead ).

    So ... I don't see why you talk about that like it was OP ?! You die like 20 times before you get your ultimate ready then paf you kill 1 enemy with it, awesome xD

    Even with shacklebreaker/lich, i don't see what the point to keep 500 ultimate if you can use 3* comet/runecage/curse/frag/la/finisher combo instead.

    Nb could do that for sure, light attack then cloak away... Get your ultimate to 500, wait for a group and bomb them on a ress while they are semi-afk, absolutely no counter and then cloak away.

    Agaisnt 1 player there is no point to keep 500 ultimate ... Waste of time, i believe it worth it if you plan to kill a big ammount of people at the same times = Bomblade.
  • Feanor
    Feanor
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    Skoomah wrote: »
    Just remember guys: Sorcs can blow you up in 2 seconds flat from far away AND shield stack at will and never take damage to their health pool AND run away with streak spam AND immobilize up close with hard hitting mines or way far away with rune cage AND steal all your kills in BGs AND complete Maelstrom with just one skill bar AND sustain forever AND heal to full underneath 50k shields with resto ult.

    SUPERIOR Damage, Healing, Tankiness, Sustain, Mobility = Complete Class / FLAWLESS VICTORY

    FINISH HIM

    Almost everything in that list is an urban legend.
    Main characters: Feanor the Believer - AD Altmer mSorc - AR 46 - Flawless Conqueror (PC EU)Idril Arnanor - AD Altmer mSorc - CP 217 - Stormproof (PC NA)Other characters:
    Necrophilius Killgood - DC Imperial NecromancerFearscales - AD Argonian Templar - Stormproof (healer)Draco Imperialis - AD Imperial DK (tank)Cabed Naearamarth - AD Dunmer mDKValirion Willowthorne - AD Bosmer stamBladeTuruna - AD Altmer magBladeKheled Zaram - AD Redguard stamDKKibil Nala - AD Redguard stamSorc - StormproofYavanna Kémentárí - AD Breton magWardenAzog gro-Ghâsh - EP Orc stamWardenVidar Drakenblød - DC Nord mDKMarquis de Peyrac - DC Breton mSorc - StormproofRawlith Khaj'ra - AD Khajiit stamWardenTu'waccah - AD Redguard Stamplar
    All chars 50 @ CP 1700+. Playing and enjoying PvP with RdK mostly on PC EU.
  • Kikke
    Kikke
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    This thread only shows the true bias behind the people screaming for sorc nerfs, lol. . .
    Cleared Trials:
    - vAA HM - vHRC HM - vSO HM - vMoL HM - vHoF HM - vAS HM - vCR HM -

    "The journey of a thousand miles begins with one step, and a lot of bitching."
    -Someone said it, I guess.
  • Feanor
    Feanor
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    @DDuke

    Can we balance all other CCs around Streak then? As in 1.5 second CC duration, moderate damage, roots the caster, teleports you behind the target where you have to turn around before you can attack again, doesn’t work if there is uneven terrain, has a cost increase, and is dodgeable?
    Main characters: Feanor the Believer - AD Altmer mSorc - AR 46 - Flawless Conqueror (PC EU)Idril Arnanor - AD Altmer mSorc - CP 217 - Stormproof (PC NA)Other characters:
    Necrophilius Killgood - DC Imperial NecromancerFearscales - AD Argonian Templar - Stormproof (healer)Draco Imperialis - AD Imperial DK (tank)Cabed Naearamarth - AD Dunmer mDKValirion Willowthorne - AD Bosmer stamBladeTuruna - AD Altmer magBladeKheled Zaram - AD Redguard stamDKKibil Nala - AD Redguard stamSorc - StormproofYavanna Kémentárí - AD Breton magWardenAzog gro-Ghâsh - EP Orc stamWardenVidar Drakenblød - DC Nord mDKMarquis de Peyrac - DC Breton mSorc - StormproofRawlith Khaj'ra - AD Khajiit stamWardenTu'waccah - AD Redguard Stamplar
    All chars 50 @ CP 1700+. Playing and enjoying PvP with RdK mostly on PC EU.
  • Aedaryl
    Aedaryl
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    Feanor wrote: »
    @DDuke

    Can we balance all other CCs around Streak then? As in 1.5 second CC duration, moderate damage, roots the caster, teleports you behind the target where you have to turn around before you can attack again, doesn’t work if there is uneven terrain, has a cost increase, and is dodgeable?

    Blockable, it' undodgeable
  • DDuke
    DDuke
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    Aedaryl wrote: »
    @DDuke the way you calcul and evaluate sorc as having the best burst is totaly wrong, and you only bring misinformation with your bad number.

    The real number in game make NB have better burst than sorc.

    Try to use your brain for seeing how the reality is and not how you think things are.

    If you don't find, I will bring you valuable and true, good number.

    That is very insightful. Do you have anything of actual value to add? If not, here's a comparison of bursts within (or close to in case of NB - there's a chance to avoid all of it) one GCD:

    Using same setup on both characters.
    Gear: 5/1/1 2x Engine Guardian 5x Necropotence 5x Destruction Mastery
    Sorc buffs: Major Sorcery, Wpn Dmg Enchant, Ancient Knowledge passive, Empower for Light Attack (from Meteor), Altmer passive +4% to Shooting Star & Light Attack & Shock Glyph, +5% (Energized passive) to Shock Glyph, +10% to Frag proc
    NB buffs: Major Sorcery, Wpn Dmg Enchant, +20% to Merciless & Light Attack (Incap buff), Minor Berserk, Altmer passive +4% to Light Attack

    So let's compare.
    Shooting Star 14 323+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge])=16 041
    Light Attack 3565+(40%[Empower]+4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge])=5418
    Shock Glyph 2534+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge]+5%[Energized])=2964
    Rune Cage 0 (for the sake of the argument)
    Light Attack 3565+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge])=3992
    Frag 12 260+(8%[Ancient Knowledge]+10%[Frag Proc])=14 466
    Curse 10574+8%(Ancient Knowledge)=11 419
    54 300 tooltip burst

    and NB:
    Light Attack 3565+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge]+8%[Minor Berserk])=4278
    Incap 12 890+(8%[Ancient Knowledge]+8%[Minor Berserk])=14 952
    Light Attack 3565+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge]+8%[Minor Berserk]+20%[Incap])=4991
    Shock Glyph 2534+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge]+8%[Minor Berserk])=3040
    Merciless 16 370+(8%[Ancient Knowledge]+8%[Minor Berserk]+20%[Incap])=22 263
    49 524 tooltip burst


    Now let's assume everything crits (NB has 60% crit modifier, Sorc 50%):
    54 300+50%=81 450
    49 524+60%=79 238


    So you see, even without Balorgh & without Rune Cage damage Sorcerer deals more burst damage - and that's with the 100% dodgeable/blockable melee range combo of magblade.

    If you want to compare to similar unblockable/undodgeable CC combo you remove either Incap or Merciless, which results in significantly less damage.
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