4.1.2 Rune cage change is a joke.

Qwazzy

Give frag it's stun back.

IAVITNI

I'm going to ignore most of your reply because at this point you're intentionally being antagonistic and you're taking things out of context to better serve your argument. Case and point:

DDuke wrote: »

Oh yeah, hold on... was that when you wanted ZOS to buff Meteor's damage (because apparently it doesn't one shot enough ppl with Rune Cage)?
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/404457/buff-meteor-in-response-to-empower-change

• If you read my very last comment I fully state I was unaware of LA changes and the thread was made April 3rd--13 days before the official sorc thread was created https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/407079/pts-update-18-feedback-thread-for-sorcerer-balance/p1Before the official PTS notes were actually released. Everyone who replied to that thread agreed btw because DB was the sorc ulti at the time
• If you want to look up my comment history why don't you go find my post where I say that Cage damage is going to give sorcs the extra burst that they've been lacking. Because I was one of the first people to mention that on the forums--https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/5006118#Comment_5006118 But I bet you'll only focus on my miscall for stam sorcs.
• At the time I made that Meteor thread NOBODY had thought Cage was going to become the monster it is now because Empower and Light Attack changes were the focus of everyones discussion.

DDuke wrote: »

What mistake? I only counted the light attacks that land during the CC (i.e. within 1-2GCD), not ones before.

The numbers I presented were pulled from your example but with no Meteor. Your mistake was to say I "conveniently" forgot the empowered Light Attack when I fully stated Meteor was not part of the combo which would remove empower as well. You don't read everything, you omit information to discredit me and you reference out of context. But keep pretending I'm the difficult one.

I'm done with this circular argument. Last point I'll make is below and it won't need a reply.

DDuke wrote: »

"Health before the instagib burst hardly matters unless you're fighting a tank"

If Cage keeps the damage, sorc combo remains an instagib for most medium builds as long as it hits. This shouldn't be the case. This is the whole point of removing Cage damage. There is no instagib because thats 8k tooltip damage off the burst, which usually translates to not hitting 25% on most builds which takes away another 15k tooltip damage. It's very apparent that ZoS does not want high burst builds running around instabursting people--they are intentionally increasing TTK across the board and have been nerfing all high bursts--starting with the old proc setups. This applies to all classes including sorcs and burst-bow builds (your bow build is burst because that's how you built it--your execute is DoT based...)

In the long run I want Cage cc removed entirely because it does not provide the type of utility the class actually needs. But for the interim the current iteration is the most balanced choice across the board (not just for your bow build)because the moment that a damage Cage hits, most builds are guaranteed dead and it removes that instagib damage but still provides sorc with a way to maintain pressure. Your proposed change only really benefits night blades because other classes aren’t going to be able to spam dodgeroll as much without cloak to reset costs.

Is it ideal? No. But the likelihood of ZoS doing anything beyond a numbers tweak this PTS is close to none at this point. The whole thing is just a compromise that leaves all parties unhappy.

DDuke

.

DDuke

IAVITNI wrote: »

[*] At the time I made that Meteor thread NOBODY had thought Cage was going to become the monster it is now because Empower and Light Attack changes were the focus of everyones discussion.
[/list]

Nobody thought Cage was going to be a problem... Nobody? Feel free to go through my post history lol

Sometimes people just need to listen.

IAVITNI wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

What mistake? I only counted the light attacks that land during the CC (i.e. within 1-2GCD), not ones before.

The numbers I presented were pulled from your example but with no Meteor. Your mistake was to say I "conveniently" forgot the empowered Light Attack when I fully stated Meteor was not part of the combo which would remove empower as well. You don't read everything, you omit information to discredit me and you reference out of context. But keep pretending I'm the difficult one.[/spoiler]

I'm done with this circular argument. Last point I'll make is below and it won't need a reply.

Oh that thing several pages ago. Yeah, sorry - must've missed the "without Meteor" there.

I've done the math for burst without Meteor as well (and posted on this thread), so... all good?

IAVITNI wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

"Health before the instagib burst hardly matters unless you're fighting a tank"

If Cage keeps the damage, sorc combo remains an instagib for most medium builds as long as it hits. This shouldn't be the case. This is the whole point of removing Cage damage. There is no instagib because thats 8k tooltip damage off the burst, which usually translates to not hitting 25% on most builds which takes away another 15k tooltip damage. It's very apparent that ZoS does not want high burst builds running around instabursting people--they are intentionally increasing TTK across the board and have been nerfing all high bursts--starting with the old proc setups. This applies to all classes including sorcs and burst-bow builds (your bow build is burst because that's how you built it--your execute is DoT based...)

Except there still will be instagibbing because you still deal the highest burst damage in the game, with or without Cage damage. I don't know how I could make this more clear.

And how can you dismiss "as long as it hits" as some minor inconvenience? That's like saying "you get kills if you hit people in shooters" - that's exactly how it should be.


This game desperately needs "skill checks" to keep average players from demolishing better players due to game imbalances - it doesn't need CCs that remove any skill from the game and guarantee you land your entire burst on someone.


And yeah, I'm all for increasing TTK. Let's start with medium armor builds.

IAVITNI wrote: »

In the long run I want Cage cc removed entirely because it does not provide the type of utility the class actually needs. But for the interim the current iteration is the most balanced choice across the board (not just for your bow build)because the moment that a damage Cage hits, most builds are guaranteed dead and it removes that instagib damage but still provides sorc with a way to maintain pressure. Your proposed change only really benefits night blades because other classes aren’t going to be able to spam dodgeroll as much without cloak to reset costs.

And here we have the real reason why you're still defending undodgeable/unblockable CCs. Why didn't you just lead with the "I hate Nightblades and want to see them suffer"?


Defensively medium stamblades (you know, the dodge rolling kind) are garbage just like any other class in medium armor.

The reason you see a lot of them is simple: they have easiest burst combo in the game that even a complete potato can perform (Incap->Relentless). Not cloak (which is actually pretty hard to utilize effectively for bad players). Not dodge roll.

The only players who get to complain about Cloak are Wardens (only Shalks really to pull NBs out of cloak and those can't even be spammed) & DKs (spamming Volatile is expensive and deals no damage to NB).


For every other class medium armor rollerblades are the easiest class/build in the game to kill.

So why should abilities exist that allow Sorcerers (literally the best class for killing them even without Cage) ignore their main defensive mechanic and land all their burst?

There was a thread that suggested giving Rune Cage to Wardens - I'd rather have that than the current nonsense where the class with already best counters to dodge roll (and cloak) gets a hardcounter to it.

IAVITNI wrote: »

Is it ideal? No. But the likelihood of ZoS doing anything beyond a numbers tweak this PTS is close to none at this point. The whole thing is just a compromise that leaves all parties unhappy.

Unfortunately, on this I can agree. It's unlikely we'll see any further changes to Rune Cage this PTS. Sorcs will keep rampaging and tank builds in the meta multiplying. Causality at its finest.

Xsorus

Jsmalls wrote: »

While I haven't played damageless Rune in SS, I have performed the combo without casting Rune--they're CC immune. The damage doesn't kill the average player on live, yes even in medium. I don't have the numbers to present to you, but I do have actual experience with the class in open world PvP and BGs. I run a balanced build-->Spinner (hence magelight>drain)+Lich+2pc willpower with either Infernal or Engine Guardian. From actual combat experience the majority of medium builds can survive the basic Curse-Fury-Frag.

Right, so with your gear you get:
10 262 Curse
3587 Light Attack
2964 Shock Glyph
6094 Rune Cage
3587 Light Attack
13 304 Frag

---

39 798 "tooltip burst" in noCP+50% Crit Modifier=59 697
+Fury


...and my bow build that currently instagibs any dodge roller without tank sets:
6767 Bombard
4141 Light Attack
23 216 Lethal Arrow
4141 Light Attack
7038 Bombard
+possibly Poison Dmg/Defile/Vulnerability poison

---

45 303 "tooltip burst" in noCP+70% Crit Modifier=77 015

My penetration: 100
Your Spinner sorc's penetration: 8434

Target with 16 479 resistances (Medium+Major Ward/Resolve) would then take:
59 697->26 221 dmg
77 015->28 980 dmg


@DDuke

Guess I lied I can't stay out...

You're missing something in your calculations. Just considering frags in that equation... You have them hitting a player for 10,000 of that 26k against 16k resistance....

That's just nooooot happening in game. If it were no MagSorc would ever be in this forums talking about ways to improve the class.

I have 51k magicka and 2500 spell damage with 3500 penetration from spinner and I'm not getting anywhere near 10k frags. Against a medium armor player I'll hit a 7500 damage crit frag with peak buffs up but more times than not 6-7k crits.

In fact in a perfect burst setup on live on a Max damage build I'll hit 1.5k light, 5k curse, 7k frag, 2-3k rune cage, 1.5k light for around 18k damage + fury. Throw in a 8-9k meteor and yeah I'll kill just about anything that stands, but I'm also using an ultimate. Take away that 3k from rune cage and the opponent is no longer in execute range and laughs off the entire burst. That's what any decent MagSorc actually cares about. Make it harder to land my burst by all means, but when I land my burst at least let it freaking work.

THESE ARE REALISTIC NUMBERS against competent opponents. From a MagSorc who has been playing a MAX damage build for the entire existence of MagSorcs.

I'll agree with you that RC needs to have a counter, Dodge or range are two big ones in my opinion, but you are spouting these insane damage numbers that really aren't realistic, and acting as if it's that is actually happening in Cryodiil which it's not. Maybe against potatoes, but every class is killing potatoes with ease.

Your spell pen seems low, I run 24k on my Sorc after I use Ele Drain.

I have 19k Spell Pen base

You have about 10k more Magicka then me though.

IAVITNI

I hate how you pulled me back in but your tone lost its aggression. I'll tell myself that's why I'm replying. I do respect your opinion btw. Otherwise I wouldn't have spent a good portion of my day at work alt-tabbing just to reply to you. I think both of us just got polarized during the discussion.

DDuke wrote: »

IAVITNI wrote: »

[*] At the time I made that Meteor thread NOBODY had thought Cage was going to become the monster it is now because Empower and Light Attack changes were the focus of everyones discussion.
[/list]

Nobody thought Cage was going to be a problem... Nobody? Feel free to go through my post history lol

Sometimes people just need to listen.

I made that post based off the live stream info. I don't even think PTS was even up yet. Empowered Overload was what people were talking about. In the official sorc feedback threads, yes you were one of the first to point out Rune. That thread was made on the 13th. Meanwhile I made my Meteor thread on the 3rd and I was the first to state that Cage damage was going to bring sorc burst up to pre-frag nerf levels on a thread created on the 4th that I commented on the same day. Cage wasn't even being tested when I made my thread or my analysis of Rune.

Now because I doubt you actually looked at my post in the thread made on the 4th

IAVITNI wrote: »

As for Magsorcs, I don't really see the meta changing much. Changes are more of a vertical shift, so same stuff just performing better
Master Staff users now get a monster set
Rune Cage places Sorc burst back to pre Frag nerfs. Might see a movement towards Meteor from DBoS

Source* https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/5006118#Comment_5006118
It's not the full post. I didn't bother to consider the lack of counters to Rune Cage because I was a DW main and I was very upset that they killed off my preferred play style. I'm sure you can understand that.

I'd greatly appreciate if you stop trying to discredit me by presenting half truths. That's what triggered me in the first place. Thank you.

DDuke wrote: »

And here we have the real reason why you're still defending undodgeable/unblockable CCs. Why didn't you just lead with the "I hate Nightblades and want to see them suffer"?


Defensively medium stamblades (you know, the dodge rolling kind) are garbage just like any other class in medium armor.

Let me be very clear. Medium Stamblade is my second most played class after Mag sorc.
My Story:

It's also the class where I made the most efficient AP using an assassin build--no viper, veli or selenes, (average health for heavy armor non-tanks was only 26k at the time). I made 3 mil in 3 days back when offensive ticks were worth 100 AP. And I made that mostly through solo kills by ganking full zergs (I know they were zergs because I used to be an officer in their guilds--3 of the major AD guilds to be precise) and collecting ticks (I'd pick off half the seige line buying time for reinforcements. Suffice it to say AD hates me. The major Crowns have forgiven me because I'm actually friends with them and they know it's their fault I was farming their lines in the first place but that's a whole story).

I know the limitations of a glass stamblade. I also know that without Cloak, medium stamblade has the worst defences in the game. So let me rephrase. I would like for stamblades to receive defensive buffs to reduce their over reliance on cloak but I understand that this would come at the cost of nerfing Cloak. In the same vein, I want shields to be nerfed to reduce sorc reliance on shield stacking, but that requires buffs to other aspects of sorc defensive mechanics.

As for my idea to nerf Cloak--increase bade duration to 3.5 seconds but the duration would decrease by 1.5 seconds for 5.5 seconds every time you use it down to a minimum of 0.5. So after 3 consecutive uses Cloak only lasts 0.5 seconds. This change would only punish players that chain cloak like it's a shield. Smart use of Cloak would remain relatively unaffected. Running would be slightly harder but that could easily be compensated by increasing the movement speed while Cloaked.

Obviously this change would require that Detect Pots and Mark should be removed from the game because no hard counters should exist.

I wouldn't advocate for one without the other. On top of this I would advocate for further defensive buffs to night blade, but more along the lines of QoL as opposed to a big numbers increase. What specifically? Not to sure. Probably just easier/more rewarding access to their passives.Increased duration of Shadow Barrier etc.

As for what seems to be our endless discussion regarding the burst of sorcs:

1. I play on PS4 NA. You're EU PC. Ideally I would like to run all well-fitted on my magsorc but due to latency issues it's simply not possible. Meta's do differ across consoles and due to poorer latency I feel console leans more towards static mitigation because overall combat is simply not as fluid so our realities are likely very different but real none the less. The most amazing clip of KodiPvP I ever saw was when he Streaked through a target dummy and turned 360 so seamlessly that I thought the clip skipped. Most impressive thing I've ever seen in ESO.
2. I play primarily CP so this probably skews my perception of your no CP calculations (although I've never died to Curse-Fury-Frag alone in BGs in medium)
3. My "majority of/average" player(s) excludes about 80% of the people I run into in Cyrodil. If they don't seem to have basic knowledge of PvP mechanics I consider them potatoes that are only good for frying and not worth deriving any statistical analysis from.
4. Our time periods and therefore objectives differ. You're looking for a longer term Cage change whereas the ONLY reason I defend the current PTS Cage is because ZoS didn't outright remove it from the first patch, which implies that they are only looking to tweak and not rework it. You're looking for genuine balance whereas I'm trying to make the best of a bad situation. In the long run I want Cage gone but for right now I think Cage is fine without the damage because Curse-Fury-Frag does not kill any good player in medium and it provides sorc with sustained threat. I have no problem eating a Curse-Fury-Frag on my Innate+Senche sNB, (5 pc medium) Ravager+BP sPlar or Spriggan+E.Hunt sDen with nothing but Vigor+Rally and Major defensive buffs up, I've never been 100-0'd by just that combo, ever. In fact I take frags to the face on purpose as a kind of rebellion against how weak it now is. So no matter what numbers you throw at me I just won't believe it because my actual experience in Cyrodil, duels and even BGs (though I say BGs with less confidence since I've done them the least) does not support it. Honestly can't tell you why.
5. We disagree on what is valid counterplay to sorc burst. You think it's ok to be instagibed from 100 if the whole sorc combo lands. I do not and a damageless Cage or simply put a Curse-Fury-Frag isn't going to kill anyone worth a clip. This point is probably influenced by point 1. Average health for a non-tank build in Cyro is 22k-23k. Average health for all players is probably 30k because some of these kids are just ridiculous

Don't judge my stamden. It was supposed to be Fury+Legion but I was too lazy to move gear across 14 characters so I just grabbed what was in my bank.

Lord-Otto

DDuke wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Galarthor wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

...and when I present some facts to prove all those notions wrong, I get ignored and people repeat the same bogus claims again. There really is only one response to that.

Pretty rich coming from a guy who ignores facts about sorcs that he got wrong, just because they don't fit his agenda.

Oh, this should be fun.

Such as?

Necro/Destruction/Slime being a viable build?

If you build for max dmg playstyle, sure it is. Probably too advanced for players like you though.

You'll run out of resources in prolonged keep fights after a minute.
But you wouldn't know, you're just cheesing your way through BGs, while demanding nerfs to everything that could potentially kill you.

I mean, the sheer ignorance you show is stupefying.
Are you really gonna tell a four-year magsorc how to play? LMFAO. If you had the slightest bit of knowledge about this class, you would also be aware that two mismatched max magicka monster pieces are almost tge same damage as Slimecraw, but much better for sustain and shields. That is why no sorc uses Slimecraw.
Oh, but of course, that would be too inconvenient for Duke's argument. Nonono, his build must be allowed to instagib people in BG, so naturally there must be a theoretical setup for sorcs, even though it doesn't work, so you can point fingers and distract from how awful you actually are in real combat. Do us a favor abd stop preteding you'd know anything about sorcs, it's getting pathetic.

lucky_Sage

helios777 wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

@Abhaya

That's not counter-play. That's a reaction.

Counter-Play would be seeing them perform the skill, and doing something to prevent it. (net loss for both sides)

NB and DK both have unblockable CC, fear and fossilize. It's an l2p issue if you can't learn to counter play

not when theres isn't 40m range and last 5 seconds

pieratsos

DDuke wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Galarthor wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

...and when I present some facts to prove all those notions wrong, I get ignored and people repeat the same bogus claims again. There really is only one response to that.

Pretty rich coming from a guy who ignores facts about sorcs that he got wrong, just because they don't fit his agenda.

Oh, this should be fun.

Such as?

Necro/Destruction/Slime being a viable build?

If you build for max dmg playstyle, sure it is. Probably too advanced for players like you though.

Says the guy who doesn't even know how streak works.

Qbiken

Just fix the buggy CC with rune-cage and I literally don´t care if it stuns me or not as long as I can reliably break free or have any visual hint (unless you call Meteor a hint )so that I know that it´s coming for me.

I´ve had situations where it takes med 3-4 seconds to break free from rune-cage (lag-free environment and with close to full stamina pool) simply because how buggy it is.

My suggestion to rune-cage:
* Give it a small cast-time. While channelled, the target gets a dark circle underneath them indicating what´s to come.
* Make it interruptible and reduce the range: Gives room for counterplay for both range and melee setups.

I don´t know what a good cast-time/channel-time would be however.

@Derra @Feanor @Biro123
How would making rune-cage a channel/giving it a cast time affect it´s performance? Would sorc still use it, assuming it´s unblockable and goes through dodge?

IZZEFlameLash

All these Balorgh set talks. It won't benefit Sorcs much. But it WILL benefit NB a lot more because it is very possible for NBs to get Incap up very fast and even if the Incap isn't up again, their skills will do even more damage on top of 20% increased damage taken, Major Fracture and 1000 WD. Much higher benefit for NBs than Sorcs or any other classes tbh.

Jaxaxo

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

All these Balorgh set talks. It won't benefit Sorcs much. But it WILL benefit NB a lot more because it is very possible for NBs to get Incap up very fast and even if the Incap isn't up again, their skills will do even more damage on top of 20% increased damage taken, Major Fracture and 1000 WD. Much higher benefit for NBs than Sorcs or any other classes tbh.

o.O
Huh?
I mean ok, i can use it with incap every time i get it. But why? would rather ran kena/Veli to keep that weapon dmg bonus all the time. So i dont see any point in your text. Incap is overloaded as ulti and strong af. But it has nothing to do with Balrogh.

TheHsN

KingLogix wrote: »

I wont write much. To keep it short.... the damage from the rune cage is not the issue. the 0 counter play followed by a huge timed delayed burst is the issue.

This is no where near comparable to fossilize > dk burst.

i Have never died to RUNE CAGE u just dont know how to react in PVP

DDuke

Lord-Otto wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Galarthor wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

...and when I present some facts to prove all those notions wrong, I get ignored and people repeat the same bogus claims again. There really is only one response to that.

Pretty rich coming from a guy who ignores facts about sorcs that he got wrong, just because they don't fit his agenda.

Oh, this should be fun.

Such as?

Necro/Destruction/Slime being a viable build?

If you build for max dmg playstyle, sure it is. Probably too advanced for players like you though.

You'll run out of resources in prolonged keep fights after a minute.
But you wouldn't know, you're just cheesing your way through BGs, while demanding nerfs to everything that could potentially kill you.

I mean, the sheer ignorance you show is stupefying.
Are you really gonna tell a four-year magsorc how to play? LMFAO. If you had the slightest bit of knowledge about this class, you would also be aware that two mismatched max magicka monster pieces are almost tge same damage as Slimecraw, but much better for sustain and shields. That is why no sorc uses Slimecraw.
Oh, but of course, that would be too inconvenient for Duke's argument. Nonono, his build must be allowed to instagib people in BG, so naturally there must be a theoretical setup for sorcs, even though it doesn't work, so you can point fingers and distract from how awful you actually are in real combat. Do us a favor abd stop preteding you'd know anything about sorcs, it's getting pathetic.

You lose between 2-3k burst on a Meteor combo by slotting two magicka sets instead of Slimecraw.


Also, there are ways to manage low regen (e.g. more heavy attack weaves, slotting Meditate) on any class.

Every time some random noob has appeared and said "Deci, you can't sustain that it's impossible" I've gone ahead and done it. When do you learn?

Also, four years is an awful long time to suck at this game. Go learn some math and stop crutching on (and defending) broken, overpowered skills.

pieratsos wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Galarthor wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

...and when I present some facts to prove all those notions wrong, I get ignored and people repeat the same bogus claims again. There really is only one response to that.

Pretty rich coming from a guy who ignores facts about sorcs that he got wrong, just because they don't fit his agenda.

Oh, this should be fun.

Such as?

Necro/Destruction/Slime being a viable build?

If you build for max dmg playstyle, sure it is. Probably too advanced for players like you though.

Says the guy who doesn't even know how streak works.

I know how streak can work in proper hands, he does too:

IAVITNI wrote:

The most amazing clip of KodiPvP I ever saw was when he Streaked through a target dummy and turned 360 so seamlessly that I thought the clip skipped. Most impressive thing I've ever seen in ESO.

As I said, if you want to make streak more viable CC for the masses go ahead and make a "buff streak" post.

But keep in mind that the only thing that makes an undodgeable CC like that balanced right now is the fact that you don't have enough time to land literally all your burst on a medium armor build before it can CC break & react.

I wish same the design was used on other hard CCs...

DDuke

IAVITNI wrote: »

I hate how you pulled me back in but your tone lost its aggression. I'll tell myself that's why I'm replying. I do respect your opinion btw. Otherwise I wouldn't have spent a good portion of my day at work alt-tabbing just to reply to you. I think both of us just got polarized during the discussion.

DDuke wrote: »

IAVITNI wrote: »

[*] At the time I made that Meteor thread NOBODY had thought Cage was going to become the monster it is now because Empower and Light Attack changes were the focus of everyones discussion.
[/list]

Nobody thought Cage was going to be a problem... Nobody? Feel free to go through my post history lol

Sometimes people just need to listen.

I made that post based off the live stream info. I don't even think PTS was even up yet. Empowered Overload was what people were talking about. In the official sorc feedback threads, yes you were one of the first to point out Rune. That thread was made on the 13th. Meanwhile I made my Meteor thread on the 3rd and I was the first to state that Cage damage was going to bring sorc burst up to pre-frag nerf levels on a thread created on the 4th that I commented on the same day. Cage wasn't even being tested when I made my thread or my analysis of Rune.

Now because I doubt you actually looked at my post in the thread made on the 4th

IAVITNI wrote: »

As for Magsorcs, I don't really see the meta changing much. Changes are more of a vertical shift, so same stuff just performing better
Master Staff users now get a monster set
Rune Cage places Sorc burst back to pre Frag nerfs. Might see a movement towards Meteor from DBoS

Source* https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/5006118#Comment_5006118
It's not the full post. I didn't bother to consider the lack of counters to Rune Cage because I was a DW main and I was very upset that they killed off my preferred play style. I'm sure you can understand that.

I'd greatly appreciate if you stop trying to discredit me by presenting half truths. That's what triggered me in the first place. Thank you.

DDuke wrote: »

And here we have the real reason why you're still defending undodgeable/unblockable CCs. Why didn't you just lead with the "I hate Nightblades and want to see them suffer"?


Defensively medium stamblades (you know, the dodge rolling kind) are garbage just like any other class in medium armor.

Let me be very clear. Medium Stamblade is my second most played class after Mag sorc.
My Story:

It's also the class where I made the most efficient AP using an assassin build--no viper, veli or selenes, (average health for heavy armor non-tanks was only 26k at the time). I made 3 mil in 3 days back when offensive ticks were worth 100 AP. And I made that mostly through solo kills by ganking full zergs (I know they were zergs because I used to be an officer in their guilds--3 of the major AD guilds to be precise) and collecting ticks (I'd pick off half the seige line buying time for reinforcements. Suffice it to say AD hates me. The major Crowns have forgiven me because I'm actually friends with them and they know it's their fault I was farming their lines in the first place but that's a whole story).

I know the limitations of a glass stamblade. I also know that without Cloak, medium stamblade has the worst defences in the game. So let me rephrase. I would like for stamblades to receive defensive buffs to reduce their over reliance on cloak but I understand that this would come at the cost of nerfing Cloak. In the same vein, I want shields to be nerfed to reduce sorc reliance on shield stacking, but that requires buffs to other aspects of sorc defensive mechanics.

As for my idea to nerf Cloak--increase bade duration to 3.5 seconds but the duration would decrease by 1.5 seconds for 5.5 seconds every time you use it down to a minimum of 0.5. So after 3 consecutive uses Cloak only lasts 0.5 seconds. This change would only punish players that chain cloak like it's a shield. Smart use of Cloak would remain relatively unaffected. Running would be slightly harder but that could easily be compensated by increasing the movement speed while Cloaked.

Obviously this change would require that Detect Pots and Mark should be removed from the game because no hard counters should exist.

I wouldn't advocate for one without the other. On top of this I would advocate for further defensive buffs to night blade, but more along the lines of QoL as opposed to a big numbers increase. What specifically? Not to sure. Probably just easier/more rewarding access to their passives.Increased duration of Shadow Barrier etc.

As for what seems to be our endless discussion regarding the burst of sorcs:

1. I play on PS4 NA. You're EU PC. Ideally I would like to run all well-fitted on my magsorc but due to latency issues it's simply not possible. Meta's do differ across consoles and due to poorer latency I feel console leans more towards static mitigation because overall combat is simply not as fluid so our realities are likely very different but real none the less. The most amazing clip of KodiPvP I ever saw was when he Streaked through a target dummy and turned 360 so seamlessly that I thought the clip skipped. Most impressive thing I've ever seen in ESO.
2. I play primarily CP so this probably skews my perception of your no CP calculations (although I've never died to Curse-Fury-Frag alone in BGs in medium)
3. My "majority of/average" player(s) excludes about 80% of the people I run into in Cyrodil. If they don't seem to have basic knowledge of PvP mechanics I consider them potatoes that are only good for frying and not worth deriving any statistical analysis from.
4. Our time periods and therefore objectives differ. You're looking for a longer term Cage change whereas the ONLY reason I defend the current PTS Cage is because ZoS didn't outright remove it from the first patch, which implies that they are only looking to tweak and not rework it. You're looking for genuine balance whereas I'm trying to make the best of a bad situation. In the long run I want Cage gone but for right now I think Cage is fine without the damage because Curse-Fury-Frag does not kill any good player in medium and it provides sorc with sustained threat. I have no problem eating a Curse-Fury-Frag on my Innate+Senche sNB, (5 pc medium) Ravager+BP sPlar or Spriggan+E.Hunt sDen with nothing but Vigor+Rally and Major defensive buffs up, I've never been 100-0'd by just that combo, ever. In fact I take frags to the face on purpose as a kind of rebellion against how weak it now is. So no matter what numbers you throw at me I just won't believe it because my actual experience in Cyrodil, duels and even BGs (though I say BGs with less confidence since I've done them the least) does not support it. Honestly can't tell you why.
5. We disagree on what is valid counterplay to sorc burst. You think it's ok to be instagibed from 100 if the whole sorc combo lands. I do not and a damageless Cage or simply put a Curse-Fury-Frag isn't going to kill anyone worth a clip. This point is probably influenced by point 1. Average health for a non-tank build in Cyro is 22k-23k. Average health for all players is probably 30k because some of these kids are just ridiculous

Don't judge my stamden. It was supposed to be Fury+Legion but I was too lazy to move gear across 14 characters so I just grabbed what was in my bank.

I don't think there's much to add, we clearly have very different experiences in PvP.

I've provided the numbers, gone on to compare that to my bow burst (which does 100->0 builds like yours 100% of the time), bow burst which is less damage than Curse Frag Fury from a high dmg sorc (i.e. no Lich, but sets like Necro of Destruction Mastery instead).

Maybe a video could help you understand how I see Rune Cage right now?

This is a very, very common PvP experience right now, on the video you can see me casting cloak, Rune Cage going through the cloak & me dying before I can do anything (not even Frag involved, but Force Pulse). No Meteor, just regular sorc burst.

https://youtu.be/iEzSDS5yWqI


That I recorded in CP Cyrodiil a month or two ago, but it's really something that keeps happening almost every single BG where there's a sorc. And no, two health glyphs would not save me there.

And if that doesn't instakill me after Cage damage is gone, sorcs will just slot higher dmg gear until it does. Not all of course... some will keep wearing sustain gear and wondering why people think sorcs have a lot of burst - but we can't expect every sorc to do so and all it really takes is one sorc in full dmg gear to ruin your day.

And that is why the ability requires a counterplay.


This is actually very similar to the situation in December when undodgeable Power Lash was wrecking medium armor builds left & right.

Some people would write "but I play medium and I never die to DKs!" or "my S&B DK doesn't get free AP from medium armor builds, you're wrong!" - so I'd log on my mDK, duel their medium armor builds & they would die within 10s because my mDK wasn't built around sustain or S&B mitigation, but rather pure dmg.

So I guess the point is... perception is reality.

Feanor

And if that doesn't instakill me after Cage damage is gone, sorcs will just slot higher dmg gear until it does. Not all of course... some will keep wearing sustain gear and wondering why people think sorcs have a lot of burst - but we can't expect every sorc to do so and all it really takes is one sorc in full dmg gear to ruin your day.

That’s really revealing. With that you can have only one outcome: Forcing everyone to play an all in damage build with no sustain. I find that hilarious given you’re always complaining about lacking build diversity.

You may or may not be a good player, I don’t know - never seen you play. But your attitude certainly makes it tiresome to follow your posts, @DDuke.

DDuke

Feanor wrote: »

And if that doesn't instakill me after Cage damage is gone, sorcs will just slot higher dmg gear until it does. Not all of course... some will keep wearing sustain gear and wondering why people think sorcs have a lot of burst - but we can't expect every sorc to do so and all it really takes is one sorc in full dmg gear to ruin your day.

That’s really revealing. With that you can have only one outcome: Forcing everyone to play an all in damage build with no sustain. I find that hilarious given you’re always complaining about lacking build diversity.

You may or may not be a good player, I don’t know - never seen you play. But your attitude certainly makes it tiresome to follow your posts, @DDuke.

I don't know why you would come to that conclusion, there are lots of other benefits for playing a sustain oriented build.

That said, it doesn't mean high dmg builds don't need to be kept in check: just like when sets like Selene, Red Mountain, Widowmaker etc were made to have a delay before they land so that people can react in time and not get deleted without counterplay.

Or when sneak attack modifier was removed to prevent medium gank builds from overperforming.

Or when Power Lash was made dodgeable so medium armor builds would have a chance to survive.


I don't need to "know it all", but I do know this: Rune Cage burst is due for similar treatment.

Feanor

I edited that statement about your attitude, and Id be grateful if you would too.

On the topic: You specifically said that the available burst should be lowered to a point where a high damage build can’t kill you 100-0. What does that mean for the builds who don’t build for all in damage? Naturally, their burst will be even lower. The only advantage that has is being able to disengage or survive a bit better. But killing anything will be much harder. So, in essence, everyone is forced to build for more damage when available damage gets lower and lower. It’s logic.

JobooAGS

Why don’t people take ddukes bow build adjust it how they like as long as it is double bow, try it out, then come back?

Lord-Otto

DDuke wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Galarthor wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

...and when I present some facts to prove all those notions wrong, I get ignored and people repeat the same bogus claims again. There really is only one response to that.

Pretty rich coming from a guy who ignores facts about sorcs that he got wrong, just because they don't fit his agenda.

Oh, this should be fun.

Such as?

Necro/Destruction/Slime being a viable build?

If you build for max dmg playstyle, sure it is. Probably too advanced for players like you though.

You'll run out of resources in prolonged keep fights after a minute.
But you wouldn't know, you're just cheesing your way through BGs, while demanding nerfs to everything that could potentially kill you.

I mean, the sheer ignorance you show is stupefying.
Are you really gonna tell a four-year magsorc how to play? LMFAO. If you had the slightest bit of knowledge about this class, you would also be aware that two mismatched max magicka monster pieces are almost tge same damage as Slimecraw, but much better for sustain and shields. That is why no sorc uses Slimecraw.
Oh, but of course, that would be too inconvenient for Duke's argument. Nonono, his build must be allowed to instagib people in BG, so naturally there must be a theoretical setup for sorcs, even though it doesn't work, so you can point fingers and distract from how awful you actually are in real combat. Do us a favor abd stop preteding you'd know anything about sorcs, it's getting pathetic.

You lose between 2-3k burst on a Meteor combo by slotting two magicka sets instead of Slimecraw.


Also, there are ways to manage low regen (e.g. more heavy attack weaves, slotting Meditate) on any class.

Every time some random noob has appeared and said "Deci, you can't sustain that it's impossible" I've gone ahead and done it. When do you learn?

Also, four years is an awful long time to suck at this game. Go learn some math and stop crutching on (and defending) broken, overpowered skills.

pieratsos wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Galarthor wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

...and when I present some facts to prove all those notions wrong, I get ignored and people repeat the same bogus claims again. There really is only one response to that.

Pretty rich coming from a guy who ignores facts about sorcs that he got wrong, just because they don't fit his agenda.

Oh, this should be fun.

Such as?

Necro/Destruction/Slime being a viable build?

If you build for max dmg playstyle, sure it is. Probably too advanced for players like you though.

Says the guy who doesn't even know how streak works.

I know how streak can work in proper hands, he does too:

IAVITNI wrote:

The most amazing clip of KodiPvP I ever saw was when he Streaked through a target dummy and turned 360 so seamlessly that I thought the clip skipped. Most impressive thing I've ever seen in ESO.

As I said, if you want to make streak more viable CC for the masses go ahead and make a "buff streak" post.

But keep in mind that the only thing that makes an undodgeable CC like that balanced right now is the fact that you don't have enough time to land literally all your burst on a medium armor build before it can CC break & react.

I wish same the design was used on other hard CCs...

Heavy staff attacks for sustain! Meditate!
x'DDD
You're digging the hole deeper and deeper. At this point I start pitying you. Your arguments have been shattered so badly by knowledgable players, that only insulting people is left for you. How sad and just a waste of time.

Oh, and Spinner's outperforms Destruction Mastery. But it doesn't give you the tooltip numbers, which is all you cared for, the five minutes you sat on UESP.
Seriously, any good sorc player here must be laughing his/her butt off over the stuff you say.
xD

DDuke

Feanor wrote: »

I edited that statement about your attitude, and Id be grateful if you would too.

On the topic: You specifically said that the available burst should be lowered to a point where a high damage build can’t kill you 100-0.

Without counterplay. That is the key difference.

Killing someone from 100-0 is fine if you make build sacrifices for it and opponent has counterplay to it.


Take Selene for instance - you can still use this proc set to instakill players (yes, normally people just walk out of it and don't get hit), but if you manage to land a Cloak->DW heavy+SA Stun->Incap and it procs it still usually lands if opponent doesn't block/dodge/outrange the SA Stun.


That's an example of a 100-0 burst that has counterplay but still kills plenty of people (even skilled players) in duels, BGs & Cyrodiil.

Feanor wrote: »

What does that mean for the builds who don’t build for all in damage? Naturally, their burst will be even lower. The only advantage that has is being able to disengage or survive a bit better. But killing anything will be much harder. So, in essence, everyone is forced to build for more damage when available damage gets lower and lower. It’s logic.

When you build for sustain, you build for sustained damage as well. That's how it is with all other sustain heavy builds in the game.

I don't know why you expect to play a sustain build and retain all the benefits of a max dmg burst build - you can't have your cake and eat it too.

DDuke

Lord-Otto wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Galarthor wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

...and when I present some facts to prove all those notions wrong, I get ignored and people repeat the same bogus claims again. There really is only one response to that.

Pretty rich coming from a guy who ignores facts about sorcs that he got wrong, just because they don't fit his agenda.

Oh, this should be fun.

Such as?

Necro/Destruction/Slime being a viable build?

If you build for max dmg playstyle, sure it is. Probably too advanced for players like you though.

You'll run out of resources in prolonged keep fights after a minute.
But you wouldn't know, you're just cheesing your way through BGs, while demanding nerfs to everything that could potentially kill you.

I mean, the sheer ignorance you show is stupefying.
Are you really gonna tell a four-year magsorc how to play? LMFAO. If you had the slightest bit of knowledge about this class, you would also be aware that two mismatched max magicka monster pieces are almost tge same damage as Slimecraw, but much better for sustain and shields. That is why no sorc uses Slimecraw.
Oh, but of course, that would be too inconvenient for Duke's argument. Nonono, his build must be allowed to instagib people in BG, so naturally there must be a theoretical setup for sorcs, even though it doesn't work, so you can point fingers and distract from how awful you actually are in real combat. Do us a favor abd stop preteding you'd know anything about sorcs, it's getting pathetic.

You lose between 2-3k burst on a Meteor combo by slotting two magicka sets instead of Slimecraw.


Also, there are ways to manage low regen (e.g. more heavy attack weaves, slotting Meditate) on any class.

Every time some random noob has appeared and said "Deci, you can't sustain that it's impossible" I've gone ahead and done it. When do you learn?

Also, four years is an awful long time to suck at this game. Go learn some math and stop crutching on (and defending) broken, overpowered skills.

pieratsos wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Galarthor wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

...and when I present some facts to prove all those notions wrong, I get ignored and people repeat the same bogus claims again. There really is only one response to that.

Pretty rich coming from a guy who ignores facts about sorcs that he got wrong, just because they don't fit his agenda.

Oh, this should be fun.

Such as?

Necro/Destruction/Slime being a viable build?

If you build for max dmg playstyle, sure it is. Probably too advanced for players like you though.

Says the guy who doesn't even know how streak works.

I know how streak can work in proper hands, he does too:

IAVITNI wrote:

The most amazing clip of KodiPvP I ever saw was when he Streaked through a target dummy and turned 360 so seamlessly that I thought the clip skipped. Most impressive thing I've ever seen in ESO.

As I said, if you want to make streak more viable CC for the masses go ahead and make a "buff streak" post.

But keep in mind that the only thing that makes an undodgeable CC like that balanced right now is the fact that you don't have enough time to land literally all your burst on a medium armor build before it can CC break & react.

I wish same the design was used on other hard CCs...

Heavy staff attacks for sustain! Meditate!
x'DDD
You're digging the hole deeper and deeper. At this point I start pitying you. Your arguments have been shattered so badly by knowledgable players, that only insulting people is left for you. How sad and just a waste of time.

Oh, and Spinner's outperforms Destruction Mastery. But it doesn't give you the tooltip numbers, which is all you cared for, the five minutes you sat on UESP.
Seriously, any good sorc player here must be laughing his/her butt off over the stuff you say.
xD

Spinner gives you smaller shields & zero dmg against opponent's dmg shields and if you don't know how to heavy attack sustain or use Meditate properly then I can't help you. L2P I'm afraid (though given you've been trying for 4 years already, I'd give up at this point).

Hutch679

Abhaya wrote: »

The counter play is to break free like you do with every other hard CC.

LOL good one. I bet you play a sorc.

Hutch679

IAVITNI wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Aedaryl wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

OP is absolutely right, reducing the damage at this point is moot because they're also increasing sorc burst in this patch with new itemization (Balorgh) by far more than what the Rune Cage damage was.


So in essence the unavoidable burst is even more than it was before, even if Cage itself deals no damage.

I.e. it'll still result in all but tank builds getting evaporated with no feasible counterplay or chance to react.

Abhaya wrote: »

The counter play is to break free like you do with every other hard CC.

Except you can't break free because you've already taken two light attacks, a frag & a curse (and possibly a Meteor as well) to the face before it is even physically possible to CC break, resulting in 20k+ damage instakill.

Balorgh increase the all meteor combo by 340 spell damage, but spending a monster set for ultimate combo that happen every 56s can maybe not be that strong.


We need number comparation to really be sure.

340? You wish.

It increases spell damage by 1000 if it consumes 500 ultimate (i.e. you use Meteor at 500 ulti) & I've already got the numbers from PTS:

Comparing 2x Slimecraw to 2x Balorgh (500 ulti)*, hitting a target dummy:

Shooting Star 39 193->43 992 - 4799 more burst | 2400 after Battle Spirit
Curse 29 695->33 382 - 3687 more burst | 1843 after Battle Spirit
Frag 36 700->41 392 - 4692 more burst | 2346 after Battle Spirit
Light Attack 13 237->15 062 - 1825 more burst | 912 after Battle Spirit

---

15 003 more burst with Balorgh, 7,5k'ish in PvP


Needless to say, that's more than Rune Cage hits for on Live so people will still get one shot by uncounterable sorc burst - even more so than before.


*Rest of the gear: 5x Spinner's 5x Destruction Mastery

First off, hyperbole. How does requiring around 3x the ultimate equate to "even more so than before"?

Isn't that an extremely skewed example? A sorc isn't going be spamming meteors, nor do so with 500 ultimate and the above issue has more to do with Balorgh than meteor. Having to save 500 ultimate makes it no different from a DK or even NB burst w/ Balorgh. A DK or Nightblades burst with 500 ultimate Balorgh is going to be just as deadly because it's simply overkill damage after a certain point. You're going to an extreme to guarantee a kill which isn't even guaranteed. And don't bring range into it because a nb and DK can close gaps very easily, even against a magsorc which is supposed to use mobility as its main defence (in theory, obviously not practice)

If you see meteor cast cloak, wings, cleanse, shield stack, Shimmering, pop an immovable or just CC the sorc. The combo has counters on live, the only problem is that those counters have significantly less uptime than the Cage combo. Without the damage, Sorc burst simply isn't there, so they only have kill potential with an ultimate dump now, which will share the same cooldown as many of the Cage's counters.

Sorc burst without the Rune Cage damage is not strong enough to kill a proper build. If a player builds glass then they accept the risks with being squishy. If players are dying to the generic Curse-fury-frag combo, then that they need to build tankier or build to suit the game mode. I've DUELED medium builds that can survive the the Meteor combo. What these builds can't do on live is maintain resources dealing with the close to insta-burst every 10 seconds and then survive the second meteor combo. If they don't get hit by Rune Cage damage, they don't get hit by Fury execute which means they feel no real additional pressure for 3.5 seconds and can pop a vigor/shield and be right back in the fight.

The damage nerf is a lot more than people who don't understand the sorc class realize. I ran Cage before it dealt damage and believe me, it makes a big difference. If you're going to present hard numbers, don't use extreme outliers and incorporate the fact that Sorcs are now missing out on 20k tooltip damage. The only builds that will die to sorcs without an ultimate now are outdated or glass-cannon specs.

I'll shelf my sorc (already have, played it for a week of SS then went to stam sorc), not because I lost Cage, but because magsorc is such a mess right now. Funny how changing 1 tooltip damage takes the class from op to average.

I'm all for removing Cage from the sorc kit but only if frags gets its CC back. Reach sorc is fine but it pidgeon holes the class with the least versatility in the game even further. Removing the damage is a compromise because despite ZoS reverting the Rune Cage changes, they refuse to do so for the Frag nerfs which threw the class completely out of balance.

Omg I laughed so hard at this post LOL

Jsmalls

@Xsorus

I was just mentioning the spinner penetration because that 5 pc is invisibile when looking at a stat sheet but does make a big difference. The 3500 penetration isn't my full penetration. Most light armor players will have the same penetration stat before you add spinner or ele drain etc

Lord-Otto

DDuke wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Galarthor wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

...and when I present some facts to prove all those notions wrong, I get ignored and people repeat the same bogus claims again. There really is only one response to that.

Pretty rich coming from a guy who ignores facts about sorcs that he got wrong, just because they don't fit his agenda.

Oh, this should be fun.

Such as?

Necro/Destruction/Slime being a viable build?

If you build for max dmg playstyle, sure it is. Probably too advanced for players like you though.

You'll run out of resources in prolonged keep fights after a minute.
But you wouldn't know, you're just cheesing your way through BGs, while demanding nerfs to everything that could potentially kill you.

I mean, the sheer ignorance you show is stupefying.
Are you really gonna tell a four-year magsorc how to play? LMFAO. If you had the slightest bit of knowledge about this class, you would also be aware that two mismatched max magicka monster pieces are almost tge same damage as Slimecraw, but much better for sustain and shields. That is why no sorc uses Slimecraw.
Oh, but of course, that would be too inconvenient for Duke's argument. Nonono, his build must be allowed to instagib people in BG, so naturally there must be a theoretical setup for sorcs, even though it doesn't work, so you can point fingers and distract from how awful you actually are in real combat. Do us a favor abd stop preteding you'd know anything about sorcs, it's getting pathetic.

You lose between 2-3k burst on a Meteor combo by slotting two magicka sets instead of Slimecraw.


Also, there are ways to manage low regen (e.g. more heavy attack weaves, slotting Meditate) on any class.

Every time some random noob has appeared and said "Deci, you can't sustain that it's impossible" I've gone ahead and done it. When do you learn?

Also, four years is an awful long time to suck at this game. Go learn some math and stop crutching on (and defending) broken, overpowered skills.

pieratsos wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Galarthor wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

...and when I present some facts to prove all those notions wrong, I get ignored and people repeat the same bogus claims again. There really is only one response to that.

Pretty rich coming from a guy who ignores facts about sorcs that he got wrong, just because they don't fit his agenda.

Oh, this should be fun.

Such as?

Necro/Destruction/Slime being a viable build?

If you build for max dmg playstyle, sure it is. Probably too advanced for players like you though.

Says the guy who doesn't even know how streak works.

I know how streak can work in proper hands, he does too:

IAVITNI wrote:

The most amazing clip of KodiPvP I ever saw was when he Streaked through a target dummy and turned 360 so seamlessly that I thought the clip skipped. Most impressive thing I've ever seen in ESO.

As I said, if you want to make streak more viable CC for the masses go ahead and make a "buff streak" post.

But keep in mind that the only thing that makes an undodgeable CC like that balanced right now is the fact that you don't have enough time to land literally all your burst on a medium armor build before it can CC break & react.

I wish same the design was used on other hard CCs...

Heavy staff attacks for sustain! Meditate!
x'DDD
You're digging the hole deeper and deeper. At this point I start pitying you. Your arguments have been shattered so badly by knowledgable players, that only insulting people is left for you. How sad and just a waste of time.

Oh, and Spinner's outperforms Destruction Mastery. But it doesn't give you the tooltip numbers, which is all you cared for, the five minutes you sat on UESP.
Seriously, any good sorc player here must be laughing his/her butt off over the stuff you say.
xD

Spinner gives you smaller shields & zero dmg against opponent's dmg shields and if you don't know how to heavy attack sustain or use Meditate properly then I can't help you. L2P I'm afraid (though given you've been trying for 4 years already, I'd give up at this point).

Oh, god, the L2P argument? Really? You really are out of options.
Fire heavies can be dodged, something you advocate so adamantly. Resto heavies can be blocked, another thing you're defending so zealously. Seeing the contradiction here?
More over, those moves are SO SLOW that you will lose pressure on your opponent relying on 'em. And every good duelist knows that will kill you. And any good sorc knows that will put you in shield-only mode, which will result in you running dry, especially on your phantasm build.
Regarding Spinner's, throw away Slimecraw and Destro Mastery for Domi, Groth and Spinner's. Btw, how do you manage stamina with 0 sustain source? Or is not dodgerolling and blocking also an l2p issue?

Oh, man, this is so rich coming from a dude who calls his own instagib build "skill", while complaining about getting instagibbed himself. Hypocrisy, much?
xD

DDuke

Lord-Otto wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Galarthor wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

...and when I present some facts to prove all those notions wrong, I get ignored and people repeat the same bogus claims again. There really is only one response to that.

Pretty rich coming from a guy who ignores facts about sorcs that he got wrong, just because they don't fit his agenda.

Oh, this should be fun.

Such as?

Necro/Destruction/Slime being a viable build?

If you build for max dmg playstyle, sure it is. Probably too advanced for players like you though.

You'll run out of resources in prolonged keep fights after a minute.
But you wouldn't know, you're just cheesing your way through BGs, while demanding nerfs to everything that could potentially kill you.

I mean, the sheer ignorance you show is stupefying.
Are you really gonna tell a four-year magsorc how to play? LMFAO. If you had the slightest bit of knowledge about this class, you would also be aware that two mismatched max magicka monster pieces are almost tge same damage as Slimecraw, but much better for sustain and shields. That is why no sorc uses Slimecraw.
Oh, but of course, that would be too inconvenient for Duke's argument. Nonono, his build must be allowed to instagib people in BG, so naturally there must be a theoretical setup for sorcs, even though it doesn't work, so you can point fingers and distract from how awful you actually are in real combat. Do us a favor abd stop preteding you'd know anything about sorcs, it's getting pathetic.

You lose between 2-3k burst on a Meteor combo by slotting two magicka sets instead of Slimecraw.


Also, there are ways to manage low regen (e.g. more heavy attack weaves, slotting Meditate) on any class.

Every time some random noob has appeared and said "Deci, you can't sustain that it's impossible" I've gone ahead and done it. When do you learn?

Also, four years is an awful long time to suck at this game. Go learn some math and stop crutching on (and defending) broken, overpowered skills.

pieratsos wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Galarthor wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

...and when I present some facts to prove all those notions wrong, I get ignored and people repeat the same bogus claims again. There really is only one response to that.

Pretty rich coming from a guy who ignores facts about sorcs that he got wrong, just because they don't fit his agenda.

Oh, this should be fun.

Such as?

Necro/Destruction/Slime being a viable build?

If you build for max dmg playstyle, sure it is. Probably too advanced for players like you though.

Says the guy who doesn't even know how streak works.

I know how streak can work in proper hands, he does too:

IAVITNI wrote:

The most amazing clip of KodiPvP I ever saw was when he Streaked through a target dummy and turned 360 so seamlessly that I thought the clip skipped. Most impressive thing I've ever seen in ESO.

As I said, if you want to make streak more viable CC for the masses go ahead and make a "buff streak" post.

But keep in mind that the only thing that makes an undodgeable CC like that balanced right now is the fact that you don't have enough time to land literally all your burst on a medium armor build before it can CC break & react.

I wish same the design was used on other hard CCs...

Heavy staff attacks for sustain! Meditate!
x'DDD
You're digging the hole deeper and deeper. At this point I start pitying you. Your arguments have been shattered so badly by knowledgable players, that only insulting people is left for you. How sad and just a waste of time.

Oh, and Spinner's outperforms Destruction Mastery. But it doesn't give you the tooltip numbers, which is all you cared for, the five minutes you sat on UESP.
Seriously, any good sorc player here must be laughing his/her butt off over the stuff you say.
xD

Spinner gives you smaller shields & zero dmg against opponent's dmg shields and if you don't know how to heavy attack sustain or use Meditate properly then I can't help you. L2P I'm afraid (though given you've been trying for 4 years already, I'd give up at this point).

Oh, god, the L2P argument? Really? You really are out of options.
Fire heavies can be dodged, something you advocate so adamantly. Resto heavies can be blocked, another thing you're defending so zealously. Seeing the contradiction here?
More over, those moves are SO SLOW that you will lose pressure on your opponent relying on 'em. And every good duelist knows that will kill you. And any good sorc knows that will put you in shield-only mode, which will result in you running dry, especially on your phantasm build.
Regarding Spinner's, throw away Slimecraw and Destro Mastery for Domi, Groth and Spinner's. Btw, how do you manage stamina with 0 sustain source? Or is not dodgerolling and blocking also an l2p issue?

Oh, man, this is so rich coming from a dude who calls his own instagib build "skill", while complaining about getting instagibbed himself. Hypocrisy, much?
xD

You think bad players dodge fire heavies or block resto ones? Get real.

Those are the players people fight against in 1vX situations.


In a 1v1 you don't need either of those to sustain, especially when you run Elemental Drain (as any good magicka build should).


Also, thinking high dmg builds are about "pressure" just tells me you've no idea how they function. High dmg build=slow bursts of maximum dmg. Not sustained spam of skill rotations.

And low stam regen doesn't mean no dodging or blocking, it means less dodging and blocking (though you can still dodge a lot if you go 7 Well-Fitted, as long as you make sure you keep enough stamina for CC break).

Of course, stamina is a non-issue for any sorc running Deep Thoughts morph of Meditate.


Oh, and my burst (deals less dmg than sorc burst) is dodgeable/blockable and actually takes some skill to land.

I would never advocate for my build (or any other build) to have a CC that lets me ignore all opponent's defensive mechanics.


So yes, L2P and stop sidetracking this thread: it's not about how viable you or I perceive high dmg builds, but what they can do to other builds.

Me wasting time trying to explain a concept to you that you can never understand is not going to help anyone.

Millz

I didnt bother reading comments but just so anyone trying to complain about this change forgets they buffed light attacks this patch and it is easy to weave and get more damage out with magsorc now

Strider__Roshin

Kilandros wrote: »

Daus wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

Apherius wrote: »

@DDuke.

Could you just tell us what you purpose for sorc ? Then we could talk about that, It's your 23rd comment on this thread and I still don't understand what you want.

He wants to be able to dodge everything. He doesn't actually care about Rune Cage being balanced; he only cares that it's "balanced" for his preferred playstyle.

He wants people to win against others because they were the superior player rather than being carried by OP abilities. What a strange one he is.

Agreed that people need to stop getting carried by Cloak and dodge roll spam. God forbid a scrublade actually have to eat a DoT or a single-target ability from time to time.

Lol dodge rolling is useless most of the time. Cloak is as OP as shield stacking. If only there was a potion I could take to remove shields... I'd be chugging those all day!

Feanor

Daus wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

Daus wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

Apherius wrote: »

@DDuke.

Could you just tell us what you purpose for sorc ? Then we could talk about that, It's your 23rd comment on this thread and I still don't understand what you want.

He wants to be able to dodge everything. He doesn't actually care about Rune Cage being balanced; he only cares that it's "balanced" for his preferred playstyle.

He wants people to win against others because they were the superior player rather than being carried by OP abilities. What a strange one he is.

Agreed that people need to stop getting carried by Cloak and dodge roll spam. God forbid a scrublade actually have to eat a DoT or a single-target ability from time to time.

Lol dodge rolling is useless most of the time. Cloak is as OP as shield stacking. If only there was a potion I could take to remove shields... I'd be chugging those all day!

Well, if recasting shields would force miss all single target attacks then too...

Thogard wrote: »

All Gap closers / dizzy / poison injection / skoria / warden birds / snipe / crystal frags / vampire bane / fighter guild xbow / DW flurry / flying blade / stone fist / plenty more I can’t think of

Basically everything you’d be able to hit a NB with while they’re aggressively kiting.

Remember that there is not a detect / speed pot available. You have to pick one or the other. This means that a decent Nightblade will be be able to outrun and kite anyone using a detect pot. Melee abilities will not land.

The most frustrating miss is the gap closer. The usual counter to being kited - stampede - will not land and will not apply its snare due to the forced miss from vanish.

EDIT:
I’m removing DK leap and meteor from the list temporarily. I believe the mechanic is that if the NB who hits vanish mid-attack is the target, it’ll force a miss, but if they get hit by splash dmg from another target then it won’t miss. Could someone who has tested this specifically confirm?