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4.1.2 Rune cage change is a joke.
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DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭@DDuke
Can we balance all other CCs around Streak then? As in 1.5 second CC duration, moderate damage, roots the caster, teleports you behind the target where you have to turn around before you can attack again, doesn’t work if there is uneven terrain, has a cost increase, and is dodgeable?
Streak isn't dodgeable. Learn your sorc better.Edited by DDuke on July 24, 2018 11:39AM1 -
Jsmalls✭✭✭✭✭@DDuke
"Shooting Star 39 193->43 992 - 4799 more burst | 2400 after Battle Spirit
Curse 29 695->33 382 - 3687 more burst | 1843 after Battle Spirit
Frag 36 700->41 392 - 4692 more burst | 2346 after Battle Spirit
Light Attack 13 237->15 062 - 1825 more burst | 912 after Battle Spirit
15 003 more burst with Balorgh, 7,5k'ish in PvP"
Your entire argument revolves around this damage increase setup yeah?
Did you forget target dummies don't have CP?
Because you have frags hitting for 20500, curse hitting for 16500, and meteor hitting for 22,000. After battle spirit.
Which is laughable. Like I'm literally laughing at your poor attempt of damage calculations for PvP
So that stated 7.5k damage increase probably looks not like 2-3k MAX. Which is EQUIVALENT to rune cage but is stuck on a what 5-7 minute cooldown? Lmfao
Rune cage needed a change because it was overpowered against medium armor dodge builds (hence dodgeable not blockable), I've said this a million times. But it was needed to combat the tank meta that plagued cyrodiil, and now it's being reverted back to when no one touched it 2 patches ago. It's whatever I'll adapt, but it's still ridiculous.
0 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭@DDuke
"Shooting Star 39 193->43 992 - 4799 more burst | 2400 after Battle Spirit
Curse 29 695->33 382 - 3687 more burst | 1843 after Battle Spirit
Frag 36 700->41 392 - 4692 more burst | 2346 after Battle Spirit
Light Attack 13 237->15 062 - 1825 more burst | 912 after Battle Spirit
15 003 more burst with Balorgh, 7,5k'ish in PvP"
Your entire argument revolves around this damage increase setup yeah?
Did you forget target dummies don't have CP?
Because you have frags hitting for 20500, curse hitting for 16500, and meteor hitting for 22,000. After battle spirit.
Which is laughable. Like I'm literally laughing at your poor attempt of damage calculations for PvP
So that stated 7.5k damage increase probably looks not like 2-3k MAX. Which is EQUIVALENT to rune cage but is stuck on a what 5-7 minute cooldown? Lmfao
Rune cage needed a change because it was overpowered against medium armor dodge builds (hence dodgeable not blockable), I've said this a million times. But it was needed to combat the tank meta that plagued cyrodiil, and now it's being reverted back to when no one touched it 2 patches ago. It's whatever I'll adapt, but it's still ridiculous.
Damage taken varies, but that 15k is the tooltip burst you can get with Balorgh.
For comparison, Rune Cage nets you 9-10k tooltip burst with high damage build in CP environment.
Maybe you should go back to math class.
Best solution would be for them to keep Rune Cage damage (hell, even increase it - F tanks) but make it dodgeable.Edited by DDuke on July 24, 2018 11:43AM0 -
Skoomah✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Good Sorcs will rune cage you at the exact moment their burst goes off so that the animation doesn’t even show up.
And when it does show up, it takes a good 2-3 seconds to break free from. 2-3 seconds is all a Sorc needs to blow you up for 30k. I can’t count how many times I go from 80% health to 0%.
I don’t discourage glass cannon builds, but it’s not fair that when I finally can reach them as a melee class, I still have to fight through 50k shields that get reapplied over and over endlessly.
What hard choices do Sorcs have to make with their builds?
Damage, Healing, Tankiness, Sustain, Mobility? Nothing...Edited by Skoomah on July 24, 2018 12:07PM7 -
ZarkingFrued✭✭✭✭✭
✭I wont write much. To keep it short.... the damage from the rune cage is not the issue. the 0 counter play followed by a huge timed delayed burst is the issue.
This is no where near comparable to fossilize > dk burst.
Why would it be compared to DK burst and fossilize? DK has a thousand DOTS ticking away at you and non stop CC. Sorc uses rune cage when you can be stunned, when I play DK, you dont move, period.Edited by ZarkingFrued on July 24, 2018 12:08PM0 -
Feanor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭@DDuke
Can we balance all other CCs around Streak then? As in 1.5 second CC duration, moderate damage, roots the caster, teleports you behind the target where you have to turn around before you can attack again, doesn’t work if there is uneven terrain, has a cost increase, and is dodgeable?
Streak isn't dodgeable. Learn your sorc better.
Way to avoid the point. Besides, I always thought you can just dodge roll out of the radius if you start it early. If you can’t, my bad. Doesn’t change the fact Streak isn’t a good offensive CC.Main characters: Feanor the Believer - AD Altmer mSorc - AR 46 - Flawless Conqueror (PC EU)Idril Arnanor - AD Altmer mSorc - CP 217 - Stormproof (PC NA)Other characters:Necrophilius Killgood - DC Imperial NecromancerFearscales - AD Argonian Templar - Stormproof (healer)Draco Imperialis - AD Imperial DK (tank)Cabed Naearamarth - AD Dunmer mDKValirion Willowthorne - AD Bosmer stamBladeTuruna - AD Altmer magBladeKheled Zaram - AD Redguard stamDKKibil Nala - AD Redguard stamSorc - StormproofYavanna Kémentárí - AD Breton magWardenAzog gro-Ghâsh - EP Orc stamWardenVidar Drakenblød - DC Nord mDKMarquis de Peyrac - DC Breton mSorc - StormproofRawlith Khaj'ra - AD Khajiit stamWardenTu'waccah - AD Redguard StamplarAll chars 50 @ CP 1700+. Playing and enjoying PvP with RdK mostly on PC EU.0 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭@DDuke
Can we balance all other CCs around Streak then? As in 1.5 second CC duration, moderate damage, roots the caster, teleports you behind the target where you have to turn around before you can attack again, doesn’t work if there is uneven terrain, has a cost increase, and is dodgeable?
Streak isn't dodgeable. Learn your sorc better.
Way to avoid the point. Besides, I always thought you can just dodge roll out of the radius if you start it early. If you can’t, my bad. Doesn’t change the fact Streak isn’t a good offensive CC.
In your world, is a CC only good if it guarantees a kill?
A good medium armor player will avoid every single Flame Reach you throw at him, meaning it becomes a waste of magicka & time to use those.
Meanwhile with Streak you can always counter cloak/dodge roll when you're positioned properly, which means it's a huge stam/magicka drain for a stamblade to deal with & when timed properly it can be used to secure a kill.
It also deals decent damage, which (along with its range) already makes it a better dodge roll counter than Mass Hysteria for example.
The only skills better vs dodge roll atm are Fossilize & Rune Cage (duh).
Here's an example of how a balanced & fun NB vs Sorc fight used to look like, long long time ago: https://youtu.be/fEjhVhSLKN4?t=10m52s
Back when NB & Sorc both took skill to play; before unavoidable CCs & cheesy two button Incap bursts.Edited by DDuke on July 24, 2018 12:31PM0 -
pieratsos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Good Sorcs will rune cage you at the exact moment their burst goes off so that the animation doesn’t even show up.
And when it does show up, it takes a good 2-3 seconds to break free from. 2-3 seconds is all a Sorc needs to blow you up for 30k. I can’t count how many times I go from 80% health to 0%.
I don’t discourage glass cannon builds, but it’s not fair that when I finally can reach them as a melee class, I still have to fight through 50k shields that get reapplied over and over endlessly.
What hard choices do Sorcs have to make with their builds?
Damage, Healing, Tankiness, Sustain, Mobility? Nothing...
First they were 30k shields, then they were 40k shields, now they are 50k.
Still waiting for that sorc expert who will come and start talking about spammable 100k shields with infinite sustain.2 -
Qbiken✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭People:
It´s un-balanced how stam-warden can line up a huge amount of burst with sub-assault and Dawnbreaker
Magsorcs:
6 -
Feanor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭@DDuke
Can we balance all other CCs around Streak then? As in 1.5 second CC duration, moderate damage, roots the caster, teleports you behind the target where you have to turn around before you can attack again, doesn’t work if there is uneven terrain, has a cost increase, and is dodgeable?
Streak isn't dodgeable. Learn your sorc better.
Way to avoid the point. Besides, I always thought you can just dodge roll out of the radius if you start it early. If you can’t, my bad. Doesn’t change the fact Streak isn’t a good offensive CC.
In your world, is a CC only good if it guarantees a kill?
A good medium armor player will avoid every single Flame Reach you throw at him, meaning it becomes a waste of magicka & time to use those.
Meanwhile with Streak you can always counter cloak/dodge roll when you're positioned properly, which means it's a huge stam/magicka drain for a stamblade to deal with & when timed properly it can be used to secure a kill.
It also deals decent damage, which (along with its range) already makes it a better dodge roll counter than Mass Hysteria for example.
The only skills better vs dodge roll atm are Fossilize & Rune Cage (duh).
Here's an example of how a balanced & fun NB vs Sorc fight used to look like, long long time ago: https://youtu.be/fEjhVhSLKN4?t=10m52s
Back when NB & Sorc both took skill to play; before unavoidable CCs & cheesy two button Incap bursts.
In my world a CC is a good CC if it opens a sufficient offensive window. If it means I have to be in gap closer range for the stun while having to reposition after the 1.5 s stun - then this isn’t a sufficient offensive window.
It’s not about a guaranteed kill either. People theorize about RC combos like it is a nuclear blast. It isn’t. There are plenty of occurrences in every day Cyrodiil where a lined up RC combo doesn’t kill, especially when the opponent CC breaks fast (yes, these players do exist).
I think 90% of complaints come from people that are already engaged and then get stunned out of nowhere or mid dodge roll. While that’s very annoying it’s not really different to other forms of getting disrupted (Snipe etc).Main characters: Feanor the Believer - AD Altmer mSorc - AR 46 - Flawless Conqueror (PC EU)Idril Arnanor - AD Altmer mSorc - CP 217 - Stormproof (PC NA)Other characters:Necrophilius Killgood - DC Imperial NecromancerFearscales - AD Argonian Templar - Stormproof (healer)Draco Imperialis - AD Imperial DK (tank)Cabed Naearamarth - AD Dunmer mDKValirion Willowthorne - AD Bosmer stamBladeTuruna - AD Altmer magBladeKheled Zaram - AD Redguard stamDKKibil Nala - AD Redguard stamSorc - StormproofYavanna Kémentárí - AD Breton magWardenAzog gro-Ghâsh - EP Orc stamWardenVidar Drakenblød - DC Nord mDKMarquis de Peyrac - DC Breton mSorc - StormproofRawlith Khaj'ra - AD Khajiit stamWardenTu'waccah - AD Redguard StamplarAll chars 50 @ CP 1700+. Playing and enjoying PvP with RdK mostly on PC EU.1 -
Jsmalls✭✭✭✭✭@DDuke
"Shooting Star 39 193->43 992 - 4799 more burst | 2400 after Battle Spirit
Curse 29 695->33 382 - 3687 more burst | 1843 after Battle Spirit
Frag 36 700->41 392 - 4692 more burst | 2346 after Battle Spirit
Light Attack 13 237->15 062 - 1825 more burst | 912 after Battle Spirit
15 003 more burst with Balorgh, 7,5k'ish in PvP"
Your entire argument revolves around this damage increase setup yeah?
Did you forget target dummies don't have CP?
Because you have frags hitting for 20500, curse hitting for 16500, and meteor hitting for 22,000. After battle spirit.
Which is laughable. Like I'm literally laughing at your poor attempt of damage calculations for PvP
So that stated 7.5k damage increase probably looks not like 2-3k MAX. Which is EQUIVALENT to rune cage but is stuck on a what 5-7 minute cooldown? Lmfao
Rune cage needed a change because it was overpowered against medium armor dodge builds (hence dodgeable not blockable), I've said this a million times. But it was needed to combat the tank meta that plagued cyrodiil, and now it's being reverted back to when no one touched it 2 patches ago. It's whatever I'll adapt, but it's still ridiculous.
Damage taken varies, but that 15k is the tooltip burst you can get with Balorgh.
For comparison, Rune Cage nets you 9-10k tooltip burst with high damage build in CP environment.
Maybe you should go back to math class.
Best solution would be for them to keep Rune Cage damage (hell, even increase it - F tanks) but make it dodgeable.
@DDuke
You're clearly taking critical strikes into your increased damage calculation for Balorgh and then ignoring it when bringing up rune cage to attempt to push your agenda. That 9-10k rune cage tooltip from max damage setups (the one I play) can crit and tooltip for 15k+ (50% bonus + elfborn). So add that into the mix. On my setup with a borderline 10k rune cage tooltip, it will NOT hit for more than 4k crit in PvP. That's a 15-17k+ tooltip hitting for 4k CRIT mostly on medium tier CP players. 2-3k or so against decent players. So your 15k increased burst will be hitting for the SAME as live RC. But this burst is on a 5-7 minute cooldown.
If you're skewing numbers intentionally, just stop it lessens your argument. If you're just overlooking it then realize that you are.1 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭@DDuke
Can we balance all other CCs around Streak then? As in 1.5 second CC duration, moderate damage, roots the caster, teleports you behind the target where you have to turn around before you can attack again, doesn’t work if there is uneven terrain, has a cost increase, and is dodgeable?
Streak isn't dodgeable. Learn your sorc better.
Way to avoid the point. Besides, I always thought you can just dodge roll out of the radius if you start it early. If you can’t, my bad. Doesn’t change the fact Streak isn’t a good offensive CC.
In your world, is a CC only good if it guarantees a kill?
A good medium armor player will avoid every single Flame Reach you throw at him, meaning it becomes a waste of magicka & time to use those.
Meanwhile with Streak you can always counter cloak/dodge roll when you're positioned properly, which means it's a huge stam/magicka drain for a stamblade to deal with & when timed properly it can be used to secure a kill.
It also deals decent damage, which (along with its range) already makes it a better dodge roll counter than Mass Hysteria for example.
The only skills better vs dodge roll atm are Fossilize & Rune Cage (duh).
Here's an example of how a balanced & fun NB vs Sorc fight used to look like, long long time ago: https://youtu.be/fEjhVhSLKN4?t=10m52s
Back when NB & Sorc both took skill to play; before unavoidable CCs & cheesy two button Incap bursts.
In my world a CC is a good CC if it opens a sufficient offensive window. If it means I have to be in gap closer range for the stun while having to reposition after the 1.5 s stun - then this isn’t a sufficient offensive window.
Why, because it rewards you for good positioning & requires some skill to utilize?
I get it, you'd rather just click a button (no targeting or special conditions required, just "click a button") and land literally all your burst.
That's not how good games are balanced.
Vanilla WoW used to have something similar (they patched it out later on, obviously) when you could Polymorph someone & cast a 10s Pyroblast to one shot them, but even that could be avoided by using PvP Trinket (if it wasn't on cooldown).It’s not about a guaranteed kill either. People theorize about RC combos like it is a nuclear blast. It isn’t. There are plenty of occurrences in every day Cyrodiil where a lined up RC combo doesn’t kill, especially when the opponent CC breaks fast (yes, these players do exist).
If it doesn't kill, then you either hit a tank build with it or you somehow managed to hit buttons in wrong order.
Again, massive l2p issue if you can't one shot a non-tank with it (and even most tanks) before they can react:
https://youtu.be/NhH3-fOLMeUI think 90% of complaints come from people that are already engaged and then get stunned out of nowhere or mid dodge roll. While that’s very annoying it’s not really different to other forms of getting disrupted (Snipe etc).
Except you don't get "disrupted" by snipe while dodge rolling and take only half the damage of a RC combo. It is very different.2 -
It is that god-forsaken buggy CC break.
That's it! Idc about the damage and I don't care about the unblockable/ undodgeable aspect or even the range. But when I get caged and subsequently slaughtered over the course of 3 seconds WITH A FULL STAM BAR..
Yeah.. I get kind of irritated.Edited by Long_Jon_Nefty on July 24, 2018 1:26PM6 -
Aedaryl✭✭✭✭✭
✭@DDuke the way you calcul and evaluate sorc as having the best burst is totaly wrong, and you only bring misinformation with your bad number.
The real number in game make NB have better burst than sorc.
Try to use your brain for seeing how the reality is and not how you think things are.
If you don't find, I will bring you valuable and true, good number.
That is very insightful. Do you have anything of actual value to add? If not, here's a comparison of bursts within (or close to in case of NB - there's a chance to avoid all of it) one GCD:
Using same setup on both characters.
Gear: 5/1/1 2x Engine Guardian 5x Necropotence 5x Destruction Mastery
Sorc buffs: Major Sorcery, Wpn Dmg Enchant, Ancient Knowledge passive, Empower for Light Attack (from Meteor), Altmer passive +4% to Shooting Star & Light Attack & Shock Glyph, +5% (Energized passive) to Shock Glyph, +10% to Frag proc
NB buffs: Major Sorcery, Wpn Dmg Enchant, +20% to Merciless & Light Attack (Incap buff), Minor Berserk, Altmer passive +4% to Light Attack
So let's compare.
Shooting Star 14 323+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge])=16 041
Light Attack 3565+(40%[Empower]+4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge])=5418
Shock Glyph 2534+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge]+5%[Energized])=2964
Rune Cage 0 (for the sake of the argument)
Light Attack 3565+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge])=3992
Frag 12 260+(8%[Ancient Knowledge]+10%[Frag Proc])=14 466
Curse 10574+8%(Ancient Knowledge)=11 419
54 300 tooltip burst
and NB:
Light Attack 3565+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge]+8%[Minor Berserk])=4278
Incap 12 890+(8%[Ancient Knowledge]+8%[Minor Berserk])=14 952
Light Attack 3565+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge]+8%[Minor Berserk]+20%[Incap])=4991
Shock Glyph 2534+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge]+8%[Minor Berserk])=3040
Merciless 16 370+(8%[Ancient Knowledge]+8%[Minor Berserk]+20%[Incap])=22 263
49 524 tooltip burst
Now let's assume everything crits (NB has 60% crit modifier, Sorc 50%):
54 300+50%=81 450
49 524+60%=79 238
So you see, even without Balorgh & without Rune Cage damage Sorcerer deals more burst damage - and that's with the 100% dodgeable/blockable melee range combo of magblade.
If you want to compare to similar unblockable/undodgeable CC combo you remove either Incap or Merciless, which results in significantly less damage.
I will explain why NB have better burst.
What's the probability of the incap + will crit VS meteor + curse + frag crit ?
You will have better burst on NB because NB will crit more often, meaning have more damage.
You totaly forgot the probabilty of 6 (7 on live) damage skills crit togever VS 5 damage skills.0 -
White wabbit✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Long_Jon_Nefty wrote: »It is that god-forsaken buggy CC break.
That's it! Idc about the damage and I don't care about the unblockable/ undodgeable aspect or even the range. But when I get caged and subsequently slaughtered over the course of 3 seconds WITH A FULL STAM BAR..
Yeah.. I get kind of irritated.
Well said sorcs moaning that we want everything nerfed is not the case it's that for some reason most can't break free from this damn skill4 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭@DDuke
"Shooting Star 39 193->43 992 - 4799 more burst | 2400 after Battle Spirit
Curse 29 695->33 382 - 3687 more burst | 1843 after Battle Spirit
Frag 36 700->41 392 - 4692 more burst | 2346 after Battle Spirit
Light Attack 13 237->15 062 - 1825 more burst | 912 after Battle Spirit
15 003 more burst with Balorgh, 7,5k'ish in PvP"
Your entire argument revolves around this damage increase setup yeah?
Did you forget target dummies don't have CP?
Because you have frags hitting for 20500, curse hitting for 16500, and meteor hitting for 22,000. After battle spirit.
Which is laughable. Like I'm literally laughing at your poor attempt of damage calculations for PvP
So that stated 7.5k damage increase probably looks not like 2-3k MAX. Which is EQUIVALENT to rune cage but is stuck on a what 5-7 minute cooldown? Lmfao
Rune cage needed a change because it was overpowered against medium armor dodge builds (hence dodgeable not blockable), I've said this a million times. But it was needed to combat the tank meta that plagued cyrodiil, and now it's being reverted back to when no one touched it 2 patches ago. It's whatever I'll adapt, but it's still ridiculous.
Damage taken varies, but that 15k is the tooltip burst you can get with Balorgh.
For comparison, Rune Cage nets you 9-10k tooltip burst with high damage build in CP environment.
Maybe you should go back to math class.
Best solution would be for them to keep Rune Cage damage (hell, even increase it - F tanks) but make it dodgeable.
@DDuke
You're clearly taking critical strikes into your increased damage calculation for Balorgh and then ignoring it when bringing up rune cage to attempt to push your agenda. That 9-10k rune cage tooltip from max damage setups (the one I play) can crit and tooltip for 15k+ (50% bonus + elfborn). So add that into the mix. On my setup with a borderline 10k rune cage tooltip, it will NOT hit for more than 4k crit in PvP. That's a 15-17k+ tooltip hitting for 4k CRIT mostly on medium tier CP players. 2-3k or so against decent players. So your 15k increased burst will be hitting for the SAME as live RC. But this burst is on a 5-7 minute cooldown.
If you're skewing numbers intentionally, just stop it lessens your argument. If you're just overlooking it then realize that you are.
They reduced RC damage by 20% earlier on the PTS and it was on the verge of being balanced when they said it'd be dodgeable and that's it.
Right now on PTS I crit mobs (can't test on dummy obviously) with same mitigation for 12 444 with Rune Cage so yes, maybe 9-10k is a bit off - but not by that much.
Points still stands: you still wind up with more burst using Balorgh and sorcs still can one shot people without feasible counterplay. And I will keep complaining as long as that is the case - and I would do the same if my snipes were undodgeable/blockable or went through damage shields without counterplay.
You think requiring 500 ultimate is a big downside? Think again, there's always going to be that one sorc who shows up with full ultimate and ruins your day.
Maybe it's not a big deal to people who are used to losing, but I will not tolerate losing to someone because they got 500 ultimate earlier light attacking some *** keep guards.
When balancing skills that guarantee a burst lands, ZOS needs to look at the maximum possible burst.
Not how much magicka/stamina/ultimate that burst costs, but at the damage numbers.
Conclusion is easy to reach: this game cannot have unavoidable CCs.1 -
Brrrofski✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭If anyone thinks rune cage isn't broken try to play open world in medium armour. Rune cage is death 9/10 times. There is no counterplay. That 1/10 is a sorc who can't count to 3 and line up all his burst.
The 2k damage it does it not the issue because it rarely ever deals that damage - you're dead before you can cc break half the time.
I was running mag sorc last week to get to tier reward 3 and it's stupid how easy it is to kill people. Curse, fury, meteor, rune cage, light attack. That's it. 90% dead after that. Almost as easy as proc set meta, except this is all class based.Edited by Brrrofski on July 24, 2018 4:50PM6 -
Jsmalls✭✭✭✭✭@DDuke
"Shooting Star 39 193->43 992 - 4799 more burst | 2400 after Battle Spirit
Curse 29 695->33 382 - 3687 more burst | 1843 after Battle Spirit
Frag 36 700->41 392 - 4692 more burst | 2346 after Battle Spirit
Light Attack 13 237->15 062 - 1825 more burst | 912 after Battle Spirit
15 003 more burst with Balorgh, 7,5k'ish in PvP"
Your entire argument revolves around this damage increase setup yeah?
Did you forget target dummies don't have CP?
Because you have frags hitting for 20500, curse hitting for 16500, and meteor hitting for 22,000. After battle spirit.
Which is laughable. Like I'm literally laughing at your poor attempt of damage calculations for PvP
So that stated 7.5k damage increase probably looks not like 2-3k MAX. Which is EQUIVALENT to rune cage but is stuck on a what 5-7 minute cooldown? Lmfao
Rune cage needed a change because it was overpowered against medium armor dodge builds (hence dodgeable not blockable), I've said this a million times. But it was needed to combat the tank meta that plagued cyrodiil, and now it's being reverted back to when no one touched it 2 patches ago. It's whatever I'll adapt, but it's still ridiculous.
Damage taken varies, but that 15k is the tooltip burst you can get with Balorgh.
For comparison, Rune Cage nets you 9-10k tooltip burst with high damage build in CP environment.
Maybe you should go back to math class.
Best solution would be for them to keep Rune Cage damage (hell, even increase it - F tanks) but make it dodgeable.
@DDuke
You're clearly taking critical strikes into your increased damage calculation for Balorgh and then ignoring it when bringing up rune cage to attempt to push your agenda. That 9-10k rune cage tooltip from max damage setups (the one I play) can crit and tooltip for 15k+ (50% bonus + elfborn). So add that into the mix. On my setup with a borderline 10k rune cage tooltip, it will NOT hit for more than 4k crit in PvP. That's a 15-17k+ tooltip hitting for 4k CRIT mostly on medium tier CP players. 2-3k or so against decent players. So your 15k increased burst will be hitting for the SAME as live RC. But this burst is on a 5-7 minute cooldown.
If you're skewing numbers intentionally, just stop it lessens your argument. If you're just overlooking it then realize that you are.
They reduced RC damage by 20% earlier on the PTS and it was on the verge of being balanced when they said it'd be dodgeable and that's it.
Right now on PTS I crit mobs (can't test on dummy obviously) with same mitigation for 12 444 with Rune Cage so yes, maybe 9-10k is a bit off - but not by that much.
Points still stands: you still wind up with more burst using Balorgh and sorcs still can one shot people without feasible counterplay. And I will keep complaining as long as that is the case - and I would do the same if my snipes were undodgeable/blockable or went through damage shields without counterplay.
You think requiring 500 ultimate is a big downside? Think again, there's always going to be that one sorc who shows up with full ultimate and ruins your day.
Maybe it's not a big deal to people who are used to losing, but I will not tolerate losing to someone because they got 500 ultimate earlier light attacking some *** keep guards.
When balancing skills that guarantee a burst lands, ZOS needs to look at the maximum possible burst.
Not how much magicka/stamina/ultimate that burst costs, but at the damage numbers.
Conclusion is easy to reach: this game cannot have unavoidable CCs.
But that's PTS, and with an additional 20% that puts it exactly on the same level as live rune cage. But on a 500 cost Ultimate versus on a 8 second cooldown. Huge difference. Whether that is from random Sorc or one you are dueling.
I don't like uncounterable CCs either but fossilize and fear exist in the same game as RC does.1 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭@DDuke the way you calcul and evaluate sorc as having the best burst is totaly wrong, and you only bring misinformation with your bad number.
The real number in game make NB have better burst than sorc.
Try to use your brain for seeing how the reality is and not how you think things are.
If you don't find, I will bring you valuable and true, good number.
That is very insightful. Do you have anything of actual value to add? If not, here's a comparison of bursts within (or close to in case of NB - there's a chance to avoid all of it) one GCD:
Using same setup on both characters.
Gear: 5/1/1 2x Engine Guardian 5x Necropotence 5x Destruction Mastery
Sorc buffs: Major Sorcery, Wpn Dmg Enchant, Ancient Knowledge passive, Empower for Light Attack (from Meteor), Altmer passive +4% to Shooting Star & Light Attack & Shock Glyph, +5% (Energized passive) to Shock Glyph, +10% to Frag proc
NB buffs: Major Sorcery, Wpn Dmg Enchant, +20% to Merciless & Light Attack (Incap buff), Minor Berserk, Altmer passive +4% to Light Attack
So let's compare.
Shooting Star 14 323+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge])=16 041
Light Attack 3565+(40%[Empower]+4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge])=5418
Shock Glyph 2534+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge]+5%[Energized])=2964
Rune Cage 0 (for the sake of the argument)
Light Attack 3565+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge])=3992
Frag 12 260+(8%[Ancient Knowledge]+10%[Frag Proc])=14 466
Curse 10574+8%(Ancient Knowledge)=11 419
54 300 tooltip burst
and NB:
Light Attack 3565+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge]+8%[Minor Berserk])=4278
Incap 12 890+(8%[Ancient Knowledge]+8%[Minor Berserk])=14 952
Light Attack 3565+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge]+8%[Minor Berserk]+20%[Incap])=4991
Shock Glyph 2534+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge]+8%[Minor Berserk])=3040
Merciless 16 370+(8%[Ancient Knowledge]+8%[Minor Berserk]+20%[Incap])=22 263
49 524 tooltip burst
Now let's assume everything crits (NB has 60% crit modifier, Sorc 50%):
54 300+50%=81 450
49 524+60%=79 238
So you see, even without Balorgh & without Rune Cage damage Sorcerer deals more burst damage - and that's with the 100% dodgeable/blockable melee range combo of magblade.
If you want to compare to similar unblockable/undodgeable CC combo you remove either Incap or Merciless, which results in significantly less damage.
I will explain why NB have better burst.
What's the probability of the incap + will crit VS meteor + curse + frag crit ?
You will have better burst on NB because NB will crit more often, meaning have more damage.
You totaly forgot the probabilty of 6 (7 on live) damage skills crit togever VS 5 damage skills.
I don't give a flying *** about probability.
I'm not interested in the consistency of bad experiences, I'm interested in the existence of bad experiences. They shouldn't exist, period.
But if you do want to get into the whole probability discussion, then keep in mind that missing the crit on Incap powered Merciless hurts NB burst much more than if the sorc loses the crit on any part of the combo.
Also keep in mind that if NB misses a crit, the NB misses 10% more damage (due to higher crit modifier) than the Sorcerer.
Just for example, you could miss the crit on both Frag & Curse for example & it still would be better than losing the crit on just Merciless.
14 466+50%=7233
11 419+50%=5709
12 942
22 263+60%
13 357
...and the whole NB burst combo is still dodgeable/blockable - I just played a BG where I got hit by 1 out of 7 Incaps...0 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭@DDuke
"Shooting Star 39 193->43 992 - 4799 more burst | 2400 after Battle Spirit
Curse 29 695->33 382 - 3687 more burst | 1843 after Battle Spirit
Frag 36 700->41 392 - 4692 more burst | 2346 after Battle Spirit
Light Attack 13 237->15 062 - 1825 more burst | 912 after Battle Spirit
15 003 more burst with Balorgh, 7,5k'ish in PvP"
Your entire argument revolves around this damage increase setup yeah?
Did you forget target dummies don't have CP?
Because you have frags hitting for 20500, curse hitting for 16500, and meteor hitting for 22,000. After battle spirit.
Which is laughable. Like I'm literally laughing at your poor attempt of damage calculations for PvP
So that stated 7.5k damage increase probably looks not like 2-3k MAX. Which is EQUIVALENT to rune cage but is stuck on a what 5-7 minute cooldown? Lmfao
Rune cage needed a change because it was overpowered against medium armor dodge builds (hence dodgeable not blockable), I've said this a million times. But it was needed to combat the tank meta that plagued cyrodiil, and now it's being reverted back to when no one touched it 2 patches ago. It's whatever I'll adapt, but it's still ridiculous.
Damage taken varies, but that 15k is the tooltip burst you can get with Balorgh.
For comparison, Rune Cage nets you 9-10k tooltip burst with high damage build in CP environment.
Maybe you should go back to math class.
Best solution would be for them to keep Rune Cage damage (hell, even increase it - F tanks) but make it dodgeable.
@DDuke
You're clearly taking critical strikes into your increased damage calculation for Balorgh and then ignoring it when bringing up rune cage to attempt to push your agenda. That 9-10k rune cage tooltip from max damage setups (the one I play) can crit and tooltip for 15k+ (50% bonus + elfborn). So add that into the mix. On my setup with a borderline 10k rune cage tooltip, it will NOT hit for more than 4k crit in PvP. That's a 15-17k+ tooltip hitting for 4k CRIT mostly on medium tier CP players. 2-3k or so against decent players. So your 15k increased burst will be hitting for the SAME as live RC. But this burst is on a 5-7 minute cooldown.
If you're skewing numbers intentionally, just stop it lessens your argument. If you're just overlooking it then realize that you are.
They reduced RC damage by 20% earlier on the PTS and it was on the verge of being balanced when they said it'd be dodgeable and that's it.
Right now on PTS I crit mobs (can't test on dummy obviously) with same mitigation for 12 444 with Rune Cage so yes, maybe 9-10k is a bit off - but not by that much.
Points still stands: you still wind up with more burst using Balorgh and sorcs still can one shot people without feasible counterplay. And I will keep complaining as long as that is the case - and I would do the same if my snipes were undodgeable/blockable or went through damage shields without counterplay.
You think requiring 500 ultimate is a big downside? Think again, there's always going to be that one sorc who shows up with full ultimate and ruins your day.
Maybe it's not a big deal to people who are used to losing, but I will not tolerate losing to someone because they got 500 ultimate earlier light attacking some *** keep guards.
When balancing skills that guarantee a burst lands, ZOS needs to look at the maximum possible burst.
Not how much magicka/stamina/ultimate that burst costs, but at the damage numbers.
Conclusion is easy to reach: this game cannot have unavoidable CCs.
But that's PTS, and with an additional 20% that puts it exactly on the same level as live rune cage. But on a 500 cost Ultimate versus on a 8 second cooldown. Huge difference. Whether that is from random Sorc or one you are dueling.
I don't like uncounterable CCs either but fossilize and fear exist in the same game as RC does.
And both Fossilize & Fear can be dealt with by kiting and when they do land they "guarantee" (you can dodge roll in time after Fear to prevent any burst if you're quick and latency is good, see: https://youtu.be/q2oUzes2_xE) far less burst
In fact, on my bowblade I haven't died to a single magblade burst over the entire time I've played this character. If I die to magblade it's due to running out of stamina spamming dodge rolls, not due to anything that has to do with Fear.
I also don't even remember the last time I got Fossilized, if I'm in melee range of a mDK with a bow build I'm doing something horribly wrong.Edited by DDuke on July 24, 2018 1:55PM0 -
Kilandros✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭I get it, you'd rather just click a button (no targeting or special conditions required, just "click a button") and land literally all your burst.
Says the guy who's only purpose on these forums is to buff dodge roll builds. lol at your argument that Rune Cage is fine if it's dodgeable. Just like months ago when you railed against undodgeable Power Lash as being somehow too OP.
I really like that you think that the Rune Cage "click a button" combo is somehow less skillful than stacking stamina regen on a "click a button" to avoid all damage dodge roll build.
As usual you're just zerging PTS threads with the same dishonest arguments (and laughable examples of damage numbers to back up your arguments btw, I mean really lol at the use of Balorgh to grasp at straws) with the thinly veiled attempt at returning to a dodge roll stamblade meta that required virtually zero skill to use.Invictus
Kilandros - Dragonknight / Grand Overlord
Deimos - Templar / Grand Warlord
Sias - Sorcerer / PrefectZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »Short answer is DKs likely won't be seeing a ton of changes before we go live; this class is still quite powerful (as it should be being a tank), even after some of the adjustments we've made to other classes and abilities.
DK IS NOT JUST A TANK CLASS. #PLAYTHEWAYYOUWANT5 -
Feanor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭if you're quick and latency is good
If that’s the case you can break RC as well.if I'm in melee range of a mDK with a bow build I'm doing something horribly wrong.
But advocating for Streak as CC. Mhm.Edited by Feanor on July 24, 2018 2:03PMMain characters: Feanor the Believer - AD Altmer mSorc - AR 46 - Flawless Conqueror (PC EU)Idril Arnanor - AD Altmer mSorc - CP 217 - Stormproof (PC NA)Other characters:Necrophilius Killgood - DC Imperial NecromancerFearscales - AD Argonian Templar - Stormproof (healer)Draco Imperialis - AD Imperial DK (tank)Cabed Naearamarth - AD Dunmer mDKValirion Willowthorne - AD Bosmer stamBladeTuruna - AD Altmer magBladeKheled Zaram - AD Redguard stamDKKibil Nala - AD Redguard stamSorc - StormproofYavanna Kémentárí - AD Breton magWardenAzog gro-Ghâsh - EP Orc stamWardenVidar Drakenblød - DC Nord mDKMarquis de Peyrac - DC Breton mSorc - StormproofRawlith Khaj'ra - AD Khajiit stamWardenTu'waccah - AD Redguard StamplarAll chars 50 @ CP 1700+. Playing and enjoying PvP with RdK mostly on PC EU.0 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭I get it, you'd rather just click a button (no targeting or special conditions required, just "click a button") and land literally all your burst.
Says the guy who's only purpose on these forums is to buff dodge roll builds. lol at your argument that Rune Cage is fine if it's dodgeable. Just like months ago when you railed against undodgeable Power Lash as being somehow too OP.
I really like that you think that the Rune Cage "click a button" combo is somehow less skillful than stacking stamina regen on a "click a button" to avoid all damage dodge roll build.
As usual you're just zerging PTS threads with the same dishonest arguments (and laughable examples of damage numbers to back up your arguments btw, I mean really lol at the use of Balorgh to grasp at straws) with the thinly veiled attempt at returning to a dodge roll stamblade meta that required virtually zero skill to use.
Way to build a strawman.
Where have I said "spamming dodge roll" takes skill? It doesn't - surviving while doing that does.
For example all these dodge roll spammers (disclaimer: I don't play one - I build for minimum sustain maximum dmg on literally every character) are currently just free AP to Bombard/Acid Spray - they're also free AP to a well timed Fossilize & Leap on my mDK.
Permarollers die to sustained damage like Curse or Bombard/Acid Spray(+PI). Only question is whether they run out of health or stamina first - or if they somehow manage to kill you (which shouldn't really happen if they build for sustain).
What I don't feel is balanced against them is guaranteed instagib burst (like undodgeable Power Lash used to be) without counterplay.
That one should be obvious to most people, but apparently it isn't.
I will say this though: the current Rune Cage is even more unbalanced than the undodgeable Power Lash used to be, which I would've found hard to even imagine more than half a year ago.if you're quick and latency is good
If that’s the case you can break RC as well.
No, you can't. RC has a 1s delay after cast before it lands, which allows you to time burst abilities to land at the exact same time you get CC'd. Many people mistake this for "bugged CC break".
Other classes are limited by the nature of those CCs being instant cast & triggering the GCD.
You should know this as a sorcerer.if I'm in melee range of a mDK with a bow build I'm doing something horribly wrong.
But advocating for Streak as CC. Mhm.
I don't see how that is related.
You know that you can also use it to get away from mDKs, right? Slotting Streak also doesn't prevent you from slotting Rune Cage as well.Edited by DDuke on July 24, 2018 2:21PM2 -
Feanor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Maybe - just maybe - fixing the skill so it no longer starts the CC until the animation is completed would be the right thing to do then. Trashing the skill by nerfing it into the ground is easier though.Main characters: Feanor the Believer - AD Altmer mSorc - AR 46 - Flawless Conqueror (PC EU)Idril Arnanor - AD Altmer mSorc - CP 217 - Stormproof (PC NA)Other characters:Necrophilius Killgood - DC Imperial NecromancerFearscales - AD Argonian Templar - Stormproof (healer)Draco Imperialis - AD Imperial DK (tank)Cabed Naearamarth - AD Dunmer mDKValirion Willowthorne - AD Bosmer stamBladeTuruna - AD Altmer magBladeKheled Zaram - AD Redguard stamDKKibil Nala - AD Redguard stamSorc - StormproofYavanna Kémentárí - AD Breton magWardenAzog gro-Ghâsh - EP Orc stamWardenVidar Drakenblød - DC Nord mDKMarquis de Peyrac - DC Breton mSorc - StormproofRawlith Khaj'ra - AD Khajiit stamWardenTu'waccah - AD Redguard StamplarAll chars 50 @ CP 1700+. Playing and enjoying PvP with RdK mostly on PC EU.2 -
IAVITNI✭✭✭✭✭@DDuke
quoting the whole thread is going to become tedious.
1. Yes sorc burst will always be higher than any other class, but that's the class. The trade-off is the lack of pressure. Again, a half truth. Presenting strengths while ignoring flaws to support your bias.
2. "So, a CC immune sorc with a det pot up decides to Meteor combo me - what exactly is my "counter" here as a stamblade? Or maybe some random pug threw Caltrops over me or Piercing Marked me.
I'll quote this. So your complaining that when all of your primary defensive mechanics have been countered by a hard counter (I don't think detect pots/mark/shield breaker/current Major Defile or any other hard counters should exist btw) while fighting outnumbered there is no counterplay? That's like saying a cloakblade killed a magsorc by light attacking with shield breaker, therefore light attacks OP.
If you know your opponent has meteor up, vigor and cloak after the curse, wait for it to go off and you now have a much larger offensive window.
If your opponent doesn't have meteor up, pop vigor and apply pressure. My bosmer stamblade runs axiom, senche, kragh's and kenaw/ dubious. warrior and all stam glyphs except for 2 health on body and helm (which I will change because I havne't leveled undaunted). I'm not going to die to a Curse-Fury-Frag. I may get low to a live Curse-Fury-Cage-Frag but I won't die unless there's a meteor thrown in. Without the cage damage, sorc burst simply isn't there.
Stamsorc has the worst defenses in the game. IMO they need minor buffs but that's a different topic. Even so, stam sorcs aren't going to duel in 2 offensive sets and open world they rely on LoS. Stam Sorc is currently my main and I have no trouble bursting or surviving sorc burst. I currently run a defensive set but that has more to do with playstyle and I've still 1 offensive set with Hulking. All this does is change my playstyle.
3. A full damage sorc isn't going to last by itself in open world. It's really strong while zerg surfing damage wise but if you think that should be the central point for balance...well that's your opinion.
5 spinner and 5 destruction is a group/gank build. Try running that solo for an extended time. It will under perform compared to the basic shackle-lich setup.
4. medium armor is viable on all classes. All my stam builds (I have 1 of each class) run medium except my stamDk (I know 1 stamDK that runs medium with FM no Shuffle, one of the best on PS4 NA). I run them solo open world and they still do well in bgs though they aren't optimal. In BGs it requires a lot more LoS but it's also a lot easier to burst a sorc there.
5. Without the damage component it goes from universally overpowered to a niche block-breaker that takes up a GCD and reduces overall burst. I don't need Cage to land my Frag. I used it for the extra damage it gave to my burst because sorc burst without Rune damage isn't going to kill anyone.
6. Adapt doesn't mean flip to the other spectrum. Throw on a health Glyph and maybe a protective trait on your necklace, run Jewels of Misrule to Cloak more or run Tri-pots to the same effect. . My stamblade is technically glass but I've made adjustments--2 health gylphs. Thats around 1.5k stamina which is around 200 tooltip damage (I'm pulling that tooltip # from my 455 so feel free to correct me) and a reassessment of incoming damage was all I needed to adapt. No Sloads or Heavy armor required.
And I never said mDK or nb burst was unavoidable. I see where my wording could have suggested that. I'm saying change your argument from:
"sorc OP because they burst my stealth build" to "mechanically, no class should have unavoidable damage and unavoidable/unblockable cc because x reason..."
I support your end goal but the information you present to reach it is misleading and you're ignoring the flaws of the class to advocate a broken mechanic that hard counters your playstyle.
7. Yes because sorc got a huge buff by getting on average 1k extra mag or a full monster set with summerset. The biggest buff was the damage from Rune.
Meanwhile all stam classes got an extra 5 pc, which is why 2h/bow is making a comeback.
And investing fully into max magicka is not going all in for damage. Investing into all spell damage is all in. Max stats is a mix between sustain and damage.
Magsorc is also the only class that doesn't have a defensive mechanism that scales with numbers.
1v1 yes shields are strong--and I think shields need to be looked at--but they are not a perfect universal defense.
8.Correction. You saw plenty of good players, not sorcs, doing good in CWC and DB. How many sorcs were winning duel tournaments in those patches? And I'll admit bottom-tier was hyperbole. I've tried solo magden. It sucks.
But without the damage from rune, sorc burst is only strong enough to kill glass builds. So if you're dying to a basic Curse-Fury-Frag combo from full health, youre glass. Put a health glyph on.
9. Unnecessary buffs? Matching build for build (similar stats/playstyle--bg,dueling,open world) sorc without Rune damage isn't going to beat a good player. It can be annoying if a sorc camps mines and spams pets but the damage is really lacking.
Sorc burst without Rune isn't going to kill anything. Sorc burst with without Rune damage is going to provide a little more pressure but not guarantee kills like it does on live.
I'm not biased. Only classes I play less than mSorc are mNB, magden and maybe magplar though I'dsay they're even.
I've run damageless Cage. It's not worth the slot. You lose out on a lot of burst by no running magelight or making up for the lost ~8k tooltip damage and a whole GCD to do nothing other than stun isn't worth it.
People really underestimate how much the damage helped sorc burst. So if that damage goes and it becomes useless againts roll dodgers, Frags needs to be completely un-nerfed (CC+10% damage on proc--which is only about 1.5k tooltip damage btw). I want the class to be balanced. I also want templars and stamDKs to get significant buffs and MagWardens to...well I don't even know what magwardens need. They need all 8 of the divines at this point.
Plenty of people run non-tank nightblades and can handle sorcs. YOU specifically struggle with them. On live, I agree they need a nerf. On PTS, damageless Cage is a lot more significant than you admit. You present half the information to perpetuate the OP'ness of sorcs without acknowledging their short comings and its detrimental to the class.
I can easily say NB op because they spam cloak, have passives that are much more accessible than other classes, benefit from ALL their passives regardless of build, have easy access to Major Defile, an AoE unblockable CC that applies Minor Maim with the highest non-ulti skill in the game as well as the best class spammable and best single target ultimate in the game.
Sounds overpowered right?
But if I also state that their primary defense mechanic has an overabundant amount of HARD counters, the weakest healing of all classes outside of heal+cloak, lack of group utility and has no way to burst multiple opponents at once, the class sounds a lot more balanced.
If Cloak is to be nerfed--they will need a buff to healing/survivability to compensate. If Incap is going to lock it's stun behind a cost increase, it should be at 100 not 120 ultimate because it loses to DB in that case. Fear doesn'tneed to be nerfed, it's buggy Break Free needs to be fixed. NBs benefiting from all their passives shouldn't be a call for a nerf but rather the standard.
This is how you ask for balance. Not "nerf sorcs and give them nothing in return" That's how we ended up with live Rune Cage. Frags was nerfed (when it wasn't even the problem) gimping sorcs to the point where they obviously needed a buff so the changed Rune damage.
Stop with the biased half-truths. Stop claiming to ask for balance when you only address the issues that affect your personal playstyle.13 -
Qbiken✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Maybe - just maybe - fixing the skill so it no longer starts the CC until the animation is completed would be the right thing to do then. Trashing the skill by nerfing it into the ground is easier though.
For me this is the main/core issue. Other skills like, reverb bash, incap, fossilize, snipe and flame reach has the same issues, they´re very annoying or awkward to break free from. Usually the stun comes with a few second(s) delay. Sure I don´t like that rune-cage is close to un-counterable (aside from using immovable pots), but if I at least could break free from it more reliable things would be a lot better.0 -
bardx86✭✭✭✭✭
✭Avran_Sylt wrote: »@Abhaya
That's not counter-play. That's a reaction.
Counter-Play would be seeing them perform the skill, and doing something to prevent it. (net loss for both sides)
Edit: (The difference is when the reaction occurs. Pre action compared to Post)Avran_Sylt wrote: »@Abhaya
That's not counter-play. That's a reaction.
Counter-Play would be seeing them perform the skill, and doing something to prevent it. (net loss for both sides)
Edit: (The difference is when the reaction occurs. Pre action compared to Post)
So counter play to damage using shield is to cast them after taking damage? No the counter play to cage is to pot prior to being caged!0 -
bardx86✭✭✭✭✭
✭OP is absolutely right, reducing the damage at this point is moot because they're also increasing sorc burst in this patch with new itemization (Balorgh) by far more than what the Rune Cage damage was.
So in essence the unavoidable burst is even more than it was before, even if Cage itself deals no damage.
I.e. it'll still result in all but tank builds getting evaporated with no feasible counterplay or chance to react.The counter play is to break free like you do with every other hard CC.
Except you can't break free because you've already taken two light attacks, a frag & a curse (and possibly a Meteor as well) to the face before it is even physically possible to CC break, resulting in 20k+ damage instakill.
Woah woah woah DDuke you once claimed Rune cage did 8k damage. Whats up man?1 -
Jsmalls✭✭✭✭✭@DDuke
quoting the whole thread is going to become tedious.
1. Yes sorc burst will always be higher than any other class, but that's the class. The trade-off is the lack of pressure. Again, a half truth. Presenting strengths while ignoring flaws to support your bias.
2. "So, a CC immune sorc with a det pot up decides to Meteor combo me - what exactly is my "counter" here as a stamblade? Or maybe some random pug threw Caltrops over me or Piercing Marked me.
I'll quote this. So your complaining that when all of your primary defensive mechanics have been countered by a hard counter (I don't think detect pots/mark/shield breaker/current Major Defile or any other hard counters should exist btw) while fighting outnumbered there is no counterplay? That's like saying a cloakblade killed a magsorc by light attacking with shield breaker, therefore light attacks OP.
If you know your opponent has meteor up, vigor and cloak after the curse, wait for it to go off and you now have a much larger offensive window.
If your opponent doesn't have meteor up, pop vigor and apply pressure. My bosmer stamblade runs axiom, senche, kragh's and kenaw/ dubious. warrior and all stam glyphs except for 2 health on body and helm (which I will change because I havne't leveled undaunted). I'm not going to die to a Curse-Fury-Frag. I may get low to a live Curse-Fury-Cage-Frag but I won't die unless there's a meteor thrown in. Without the cage damage, sorc burst simply isn't there.
Stamsorc has the worst defenses in the game. IMO they need minor buffs but that's a different topic. Even so, stam sorcs aren't going to duel in 2 offensive sets and open world they rely on LoS. Stam Sorc is currently my main and I have no trouble bursting or surviving sorc burst. I currently run a defensive set but that has more to do with playstyle and I've still 1 offensive set with Hulking. All this does is change my playstyle.
3. A full damage sorc isn't going to last by itself in open world. It's really strong while zerg surfing damage wise but if you think that should be the central point for balance...well that's your opinion.
5 spinner and 5 destruction is a group/gank build. Try running that solo for an extended time. It will under perform compared to the basic shackle-lich setup.
4. medium armor is viable on all classes. All my stam builds (I have 1 of each class) run medium except my stamDk (I know 1 stamDK that runs medium with FM no Shuffle, one of the best on PS4 NA). I run them solo open world and they still do well in bgs though they aren't optimal. In BGs it requires a lot more LoS but it's also a lot easier to burst a sorc there.
5. Without the damage component it goes from universally overpowered to a niche block-breaker that takes up a GCD and reduces overall burst. I don't need Cage to land my Frag. I used it for the extra damage it gave to my burst because sorc burst without Rune damage isn't going to kill anyone.
6. Adapt doesn't mean flip to the other spectrum. Throw on a health Glyph and maybe a protective trait on your necklace, run Jewels of Misrule to Cloak more or run Tri-pots to the same effect. . My stamblade is technically glass but I've made adjustments--2 health gylphs. Thats around 1.5k stamina which is around 200 tooltip damage (I'm pulling that tooltip # from my 455 so feel free to correct me) and a reassessment of incoming damage was all I needed to adapt. No Sloads or Heavy armor required.
And I never said mDK or nb burst was unavoidable. I see where my wording could have suggested that. I'm saying change your argument from:
"sorc OP because they burst my stealth build" to "mechanically, no class should have unavoidable damage and unavoidable/unblockable cc because x reason..."
I support your end goal but the information you present to reach it is misleading and you're ignoring the flaws of the class to advocate a broken mechanic that hard counters your playstyle.
7. Yes because sorc got a huge buff by getting on average 1k extra mag or a full monster set with summerset. The biggest buff was the damage from Rune.
Meanwhile all stam classes got an extra 5 pc, which is why 2h/bow is making a comeback.
And investing fully into max magicka is not going all in for damage. Investing into all spell damage is all in. Max stats is a mix between sustain and damage.
Magsorc is also the only class that doesn't have a defensive mechanism that scales with numbers.
1v1 yes shields are strong--and I think shields need to be looked at--but they are not a perfect universal defense.
8.Correction. You saw plenty of good players, not sorcs, doing good in CWC and DB. How many sorcs were winning duel tournaments in those patches? And I'll admit bottom-tier was hyperbole. I've tried solo magden. It sucks.
But without the damage from rune, sorc burst is only strong enough to kill glass builds. So if you're dying to a basic Curse-Fury-Frag combo from full health, youre glass. Put a health glyph on.
9. Unnecessary buffs? Matching build for build (similar stats/playstyle--bg,dueling,open world) sorc without Rune damage isn't going to beat a good player. It can be annoying if a sorc camps mines and spams pets but the damage is really lacking.
Sorc burst without Rune isn't going to kill anything. Sorc burst with without Rune damage is going to provide a little more pressure but not guarantee kills like it does on live.
I'm not biased. Only classes I play less than mSorc are mNB, magden and maybe magplar though I'dsay they're even.
I've run damageless Cage. It's not worth the slot. You lose out on a lot of burst by no running magelight or making up for the lost ~8k tooltip damage and a whole GCD to do nothing other than stun isn't worth it.
People really underestimate how much the damage helped sorc burst. So if that damage goes and it becomes useless againts roll dodgers, Frags needs to be completely un-nerfed (CC+10% damage on proc--which is only about 1.5k tooltip damage btw). I want the class to be balanced. I also want templars and stamDKs to get significant buffs and MagWardens to...well I don't even know what magwardens need. They need all 8 of the divines at this point.
Plenty of people run non-tank nightblades and can handle sorcs. YOU specifically struggle with them. On live, I agree they need a nerf. On PTS, damageless Cage is a lot more significant than you admit. You present half the information to perpetuate the OP'ness of sorcs without acknowledging their short comings and its detrimental to the class.
I can easily say NB op because they spam cloak, have passives that are much more accessible than other classes, benefit from ALL their passives regardless of build, have easy access to Major Defile, an AoE unblockable CC that applies Minor Maim with the highest non-ulti skill in the game as well as the best class spammable and best single target ultimate in the game.
Sounds overpowered right?
But if I also state that their primary defense mechanic has an overabundant amount of HARD counters, the weakest healing of all classes outside of heal+cloak, lack of group utility and has no way to burst multiple opponents at once, the class sounds a lot more balanced.
If Cloak is to be nerfed--they will need a buff to healing/survivability to compensate. If Incap is going to lock it's stun behind a cost increase, it should be at 100 not 120 ultimate because it loses to DB in that case. Fear doesn'tneed to be nerfed, it's buggy Break Free needs to be fixed. NBs benefiting from all their passives shouldn't be a call for a nerf but rather the standard.
This is how you ask for balance. Not "nerf sorcs and give them nothing in return" That's how we ended up with live Rune Cage. Frags was nerfed (when it wasn't even the problem) gimping sorcs to the point where they obviously needed a buff so the changed Rune damage.
Stop with the biased half-truths. Stop claiming to ask for balance when you only address the issues that affect your personal playstyle.
@IAVITNI
So much this entire post. I as a MagSorc loved RC because it synergized with my class and gave me the needed extra damage to push my opponent to execute. Not because it was an easy button (actually landing meteor was pretty awesome though, finally knew how a mDK felt). I'm going to leave this thread now because this is everything that needed to be said.
Good day folks.1 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭@DDuke
quoting the whole thread is going to become tedious.
1. Yes sorc burst will always be higher than any other class, but that's the class. The trade-off is the lack of pressure. Again, a half truth. Presenting strengths while ignoring flaws to support your bias.
2. "So, a CC immune sorc with a det pot up decides to Meteor combo me - what exactly is my "counter" here as a stamblade? Or maybe some random pug threw Caltrops over me or Piercing Marked me.
I'll quote this. So your complaining that when all of your primary defensive mechanics have been countered by a hard counter (I don't think detect pots/mark/shield breaker/current Major Defile or any other hard counters should exist btw) while fighting outnumbered there is no counterplay? That's like saying a cloakblade killed a magsorc by light attacking with shield breaker, therefore light attacks OP.
No, the outnumbered part isn't necessary - but it's a common scenario in which a dodge roll build finds itself.
And someone using Shield Breaker doesn't get an insta-win against Sorc, you can still streak away or burst them down before they kill you (or outheal for a while by spamming Healing Ward). You can also choose to dodge those light attacks if you want to avoid Shield Breaker damage.
It also comes with a downside (being practically useless vs stam builds).If you know your opponent has meteor up, vigor and cloak after the curse, wait for it to go off and you now have a much larger offensive window.
If your opponent doesn't have meteor up, pop vigor and apply pressure. My bosmer stamblade runs axiom, senche, kragh's and kenaw/ dubious. warrior and all stam glyphs except for 2 health on body and helm (which I will change because I havne't leveled undaunted). I'm not going to die to a Curse-Fury-Frag. I may get low to a live Curse-Fury-Cage-Frag but I won't die unless there's a meteor thrown in. Without the cage damage, sorc burst simply isn't there.
So you have 20k health pool with 17 634 Spell Resistance (27%) with Major Ward active in noCP.
I have almost the same on my bowblade & it's unsurvivable. Here's why:
Sorc tooltip burst without Meteor in proper gear: 38 259
Sorc penetration: 12 264
38 259-(50%[Battle Spirit]*8,112%[17634-12 264])=17 577 damage
That drops you to 2423 health, which means you're either dead to Fury or you're just... dead if you were below 100% health when combo went off.
No Meteors involved & that's actually not even counting Rune Cage damage (as I just took numbers from my previous noCP burst calculation accounting the removal of RC damage).
It's not rocket science.Stamsorc has the worst defenses in the game. IMO they need minor buffs but that's a different topic. Even so, stam sorcs aren't going to duel in 2 offensive sets and open world they rely on LoS. Stam Sorc is currently my main and I have no trouble bursting or surviving sorc burst. I currently run a defensive set but that has more to do with playstyle and I've still 1 offensive set with Hulking. All this does is change my playstyle.
Right, there's a reason most stam sorcs run heavy when playing tank build: it gives you better stats than running medium+defensive set.
None of that would be necessary if dodge roll could actually be relied upon as defense.3. A full damage sorc isn't going to last by itself in open world. It's really strong while zerg surfing damage wise but if you think that should be the central point for balance...well that's your opinion.
Wrong. Full damage works on every class after you adjust your playstyle to more heavy attacks and hit & run style gameplay.
If you try and play full damage builds like you would a sustain build, results aren't going to be satisfying.5 spinner and 5 destruction is a group/gank build. Try running that solo for an extended time. It will under perform compared to the basic shackle-lich setup.
Shackle+Lich setup... is this the one that fails to kill squishy dodge rollers and drives people to complain about sorc damage?
Kinda reminds me of all these ppl QQing about damage shields while playing full sustain zero dmg builds....4. medium armor is viable on all classes. All my stam builds (I have 1 of each class) run medium except my stamDk (I know 1 stamDK that runs medium with FM no Shuffle, one of the best on PS4 NA). I run them solo open world and they still do well in bgs though they aren't optimal. In BGs it requires a lot more LoS but it's also a lot easier to burst a sorc there.
Cool. Doesn't change the fact you still get one shot when you can't use your primary defensive mechanics as bursting down a medium armor user that can't dodge roll is pretty much the same as landing your full burst on a sorc with shields down.
When no sorcs are present, medium does perform pretty well and a good player can easily hit #1 leaderboard score in BGs with it.
When no sorcs are present that is; if even an average skill level sorc is present with Rune Cage slotted, it'll grab the top score easily.5. Without the damage component it goes from universally overpowered to a niche block-breaker that takes up a GCD and reduces overall burst. I don't need Cage to land my Frag. I used it for the extra damage it gave to my burst because sorc burst without Rune damage isn't going to kill anyone.
Sorc burst even without Rune damage (but using RC as CC) is still the best burst (as I've demonstrated numerous times) in the entire game, so what you're saying is pretty damn ridiculous.6. Adapt doesn't mean flip to the other spectrum. Throw on a health Glyph and maybe a protective trait on your necklace, run Jewels of Misrule to Cloak more or run Tri-pots to the same effect. . My stamblade is technically glass but I've made adjustments--2 health gylphs. Thats around 1.5k stamina which is around 200 tooltip damage (I'm pulling that tooltip # from my 455 so feel free to correct me) and a reassessment of incoming damage was all I needed to adapt. No Sloads or Heavy armor required.
Yeah, and kill my damage? The burst from Asylum Bow empowered Lethal Arrow alone drops by 800 if I slot even two health glyphs to get into a health total that is still burstable by RC combo.
You don't build a character around avoiding dmg with dodge rolls/cloak & bursting people down, and then start enchanting your gear with health glyphs. WtfAnd I never said mDK or nb burst was unavoidable. I see where my wording could have suggested that. I'm saying change your argument from:
"sorc OP because they burst my stealth build" to "mechanically, no class should have unavoidable damage and unavoidable/unblockable cc because x reason..."
I support your end goal but the information you present to reach it is misleading and you're ignoring the flaws of the class to advocate a broken mechanic that hard counters your playstyle.
That is what I'm saying? I'd be making the exact same argument about other classes if they were dealing unavoidable burst.
But other classes don't have Rune Cage.
If you're thinking I have some anti-Sorc bias, there's plenty of things I think should be improved on Sorc: Streak/BoL should give snare/root immunity for instance, Encase should be buffed etc etc.
Also, how am I "advocating a broken mechanic"? That's what you and the other sorcs in this thread trying to justify Rune Cage are doing. No, seriously: which broken mechanic am I advocating?7. Yes because sorc got a huge buff by getting on average 1k extra mag or a full monster set with summerset. The biggest buff was the damage from Rune.
Meanwhile all stam classes got an extra 5 pc, which is why 2h/bow is making a comeback.
...and they got a lot of extra Light Attack damage as well.
Also 2H/Bow isn't "making a comeback" - it's been open world meta for almost the entire lifespan of this game for most stamina builds and the "necessity" of running 2H for Rally (or FM) is another big issue I have with this game.And investing fully into max magicka is not going all in for damage. Investing into all spell damage is all in. Max stats is a mix between sustain and damage.
That's a spin. How many health glyphs do you have on a magicka sorc?
You know exactly what I mean by investing all into damage and running zero defensive sets.Magsorc is also the only class that doesn't have a defensive mechanism that scales with numbers.
1v1 yes shields are strong--and I think shields need to be looked at--but they are not a perfect universal defense.
Last I checked, every class was capable of dodge rolling/blocking. It's a matter of how you build your character, just like I've built my magicka DK to do almost zero blocking (destro/resto) & have a shield based defense like sorcs.
And it still does just fine in PvP.
Also, I don't think shields are too strong in 1v1 or need to be looked at. Maybe if you hadn't slotted health glyphs and other junk you'd see what I mean.8.Correction. You saw plenty of good players, not sorcs, doing good in CWC and DB. How many sorcs were winning duel tournaments in those patches? And I'll admit bottom-tier was hyperbole. I've tried solo magden. It sucks.
But without the damage from rune, sorc burst is only strong enough to kill glass builds. So if you're dying to a basic Curse-Fury-Frag combo from full health, youre glass. Put a health glyph on.
No thanks, I've no intention of joining the "stack bleeds & sloads to get kills" club (or alternatively complain about shields etc being too strong).
When you manage to make a health stacking bow build that has enough burst to kill people, let me know. Until then, I'll stick with what actually works and is 2nd only to sorcs in BG KDR.
Also I couldn't care less about dueling in this game. Duels are a toxic wasteland where all fun goes to die.
Last time I did duels seriously was 2016, and back then tournament finales always had atleast one sorc (usually two, both spamming harness until everyone got bored).9. Unnecessary buffs? Matching build for build (similar stats/playstyle--bg,dueling,open world) sorc without Rune damage isn't going to beat a good player. It can be annoying if a sorc camps mines and spams pets but the damage is really lacking.
Sorc burst without Rune isn't going to kill anything. Sorc burst with without Rune damage is going to provide a little more pressure but not guarantee kills like it does on live.
You aren't 1vXing good players anyway in open world. If you think my bow build or any melee burst oriented stamblade (without Master DW etc) for example has any more luck killing bleed tanks & other cancer builds, you're mistaken.I'm not biased. Only classes I play less than mSorc are mNB, magden and maybe magplar though I'dsay they're even.
Yeah right, sure you're not... is that why you keep defending a skill majority of skilled players (streamers, youtubers etc) agree is blatantly overpowered? Class that majority of people rank even above stamblade in brokenness?
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/424974/which-class-is-overpowered-in-overall-performance/p1
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/425154/what-is-the-most-op-thing-right-now-v2-0/p1I've run damageless Cage. It's not worth the slot. You lose out on a lot of burst by no running magelight or making up for the lost ~8k tooltip damage and a whole GCD to do nothing other than stun isn't worth it.
People really underestimate how much the damage helped sorc burst. So if that damage goes and it becomes useless againts roll dodgers, Frags needs to be completely un-nerfed (CC+10% damage on proc--which is only about 1.5k tooltip damage btw). I want the class to be balanced. I also want templars and stamDKs to get significant buffs and MagWardens to...well I don't even know what magwardens need. They need all 8 of the divines at this point.
First off, who the *** runs Magelight? That's a waste of bar space - a skill that does practically nothing apart from giving you few hundred more burst.
Second, did you run damageless Cage with the Summerset Light Attack buffs, 2H changes or the upcoming Balorgh set? Answer is no, you didn't, because damageless Cage didn't exist with those things.
All you need to make Cage work is making your total burst bigger than opponent's health pool, and after all the buffs over the past few patches (and upcoming one) that's easily done (even if Cage loses its damage).Plenty of people run non-tank nightblades and can handle sorcs. YOU specifically struggle with them. On live, I agree they need a nerf. On PTS, damageless Cage is a lot more significant than you admit. You present half the information to perpetuate the OP'ness of sorcs without acknowledging their short comings and its detrimental to the class.
What should I do, join the chorus of sorcs who feel they're playing a "weak class" (which in fact is and has always been within top 2-3 of classes) and demand nonsensical buffs like more Frag damage, bigger shields etc?
The only "shortcoming" of sorc, the class with highest burst in game, is the lack of sustained pressure (and even that is much better than with many other builds/classes, bow builds one of them) and I've stated multiple times that skills like Encase could be buffed to give sorcs a new DoT for example (at the cost of burst should they choose to swap a burst skill with it) and the inability to properly deal with snares (yes, "sorc mobility" is a meme).
If you feel sorcs are somehow underpowered right now and only I (specifically) have trouble with Rune Cage*, then I'd be curious as to why you think they need to be nerfed. Peer pressure?
Or maybe deep down you acknowledge that their burst combined with unavoidable CC lockdown is broken af.
*a statement I disagree with, see those threads I linked above.I can easily say NB op because they spam cloak, have passives that are much more accessible than other classes, benefit from ALL their passives regardless of build, have easy access to Major Defile, an AoE unblockable CC that applies Minor Maim with the highest non-ulti skill in the game as well as the best class spammable and best single target ultimate in the game.
Sounds overpowered right?
But if I also state that their primary defense mechanic has an overabundant amount of HARD counters, the weakest healing of all classes outside of heal+cloak, lack of group utility and has no way to burst multiple opponents at once, the class sounds a lot more balanced.
If Cloak is to be nerfed--they will need a buff to healing/survivability to compensate. If Incap is going to lock it's stun behind a cost increase, it should be at 100 not 120 ultimate because it loses to DB in that case. Fear doesn'tneed to be nerfed, it's buggy Break Free needs to be fixed. NBs benefiting from all their passives shouldn't be a call for a nerf but rather the standard.
This is how you ask for balance. Not "nerf sorcs and give them nothing in return" That's how we ended up with live Rune Cage. Frags was nerfed (when it wasn't even the problem) gimping sorcs to the point where they obviously needed a buff so the changed Rune damage.
Stop with the biased half-truths. Stop claiming to ask for balance when you only address the issues that affect your personal playstyle.
Nobody is saying sorcs don't have their "problems", but this isn't the thread to highlight them.
It's literally on the title: "4.1.2 Rune cage change is a joke." and I 100% agree with that and even have math & facts to back that up, not just emotional reactions like some defending the Cage.
I would advise you and everyone else to stop trying to change my position on Rune Cage or somehow trying to justify it - absent any evidence (such as math proving Cage burst doesn't one shot non-tank builds) it's not going to change and anything you write can be considered a massive waste of time (both yours & mine).
Emotional appeals of "but mSorc weak without buffs, need one shot button" in a meta where mSorcs dominate aren't going to cut it.Edited by DDuke on July 24, 2018 5:18PM0