So Miat's PVP addon can detect stealth players even when they are in stealth state?

klink012

InvitationNotFound wrote: »

Skoomah wrote: »

MIAT add on was used privately by an inner circle for a long time before it was released for the general public. They only released the add on after an even more powerful one was used in its place. There are all sorts of other add ons that help people cheat. There is:

- auto block
- auto heal
- super speed
- macro slice
- auto detect
- Etc

regardless of what is in the TOS, these add ons break the spirit of fairness and are cheating in my opinion.

any other theories on why pvp populations have dropped so dramatically????

The API does not allow an addon directly to move, block or interact with certain aspects of the game directly. If you claim such things please provide evidence. And if you refer to third party applications (binaries and not addons) this has nothing to do with the addon API in itself.

Without evidence this simply looks like some uneducated claims which are in 99.9% of all cases wrong. You might simply not have understood how things work.

Zbigb4life wrote: »

out51d3r wrote: »

Dorrino wrote: »

There's no grey area as in 'smart people can do what ZOS prevented them to do to gain advantage'.

Definitely. You are using the tools ZOS provides. Nothing wrong with that. Whether or not ZOS should provide those specific tools is a reasonable question, but it's ultimately irrelevant unless they remove them. We all play the game that we have, not the perfect game that exists only in our imaginations. If you want to win, use the tools or you put yourself at disadvantage to those who do.

I don't agree with this idea. It's wrong to use this add on and simply because it exists shouldn't force other players to use it as well. ZOS should ban everyone that uses this add on.

let's look at the following section in the terms of service:

ZeniMax may, in its discretion, make available to You one or more application programming interfaces and associated documentation (each an "API") to allow You to create, download, enable, use, or associate Content (excluding Game Mods), that modifies or otherwise provides enhanced features to the user interface ("Add-ons") for a Game. The API and Add-ons are Software for purposes of these Terms of Service and are subject to these Terms of Service and the Supplemental Terms applicable to the API and the Add-Ons. Notwithstanding anything to the contrary in these Terms of Service, if the Supplemental Terms for an API or Add-on directly conflict with specific terms and conditions in these Terms of Service or any other Supplemental Terms, the Supplemental Terms for an API or Add-on will control, but solely for purpose of the specific API and Add-on and not for any other purpose.

Excerpt from the Add-On terms:

ZOS RESERVES THE RIGHT TO CHANGE THE API AT ANY TIME, OR TO DISABLE AND/OR RESTRICT ANY ADD-ONS AT ANY TIME;

So let's look at the addon again:
It modifies / enhances the game. It is what ZOS wants by providing the API. There aren't any comments about what an addon is allowed to do. The addon was capable of doing way more than that so they took a look at it. They have reviewed it. Then they came up with an API change. That's all they did. So you might have guessed it by now, everything indicates that ZOS is now fine with how the addon works, otherwise they would have implemented further restrictions when they initially reviewed it.

So let's take a look at the whole situation again:
The addon is legit. There is no indication it is abusing bugs or is doing anything ZOS isn't fine with. Calling other players cheaters because they are using this addon is wrong as the definition of cheater doesn't fit. Wanting people to be banned for using it is the same as if you would want people being banned for animation canceling. It's stupid.

Lol at this guy trying soooo damn hard to defend these add-ons and underground cheats. Probably was here posting about the CE not being real too.

Game is down to 1 pvp camp that's barely pop locked at prime time... that speaks volumes in itself.

killimandrosb16_ESO

I warned about this addon massively months ago...nothing has been done apparently. I entered cyrodiil briefly to check the state, and what would you think,most of those still into the lakes now use it. So apparently theres another mod in play now, which is even "better"....and you wonder why the pop is dropping...If zenimax is happy with this MOD, make it so you can enable the same things this mod enables from your own interface without having to download it (as there are already maliscious sites offering the download...with added malware). That way those still not aware of it, eg. new players, which you WANT into the lakes Zeni,wont leave with a harsh taste in their mouth. I play bow/bow. My playstyle is obsolete. I can not use any skills within the tree, wherever Im positioned, whatever skill I use, it will be dodged. Rumours are the addon also is a part of the hefty lagproblems, but I dont really know cause I dont play anymore anyway

InvitationNotFound

klink012 wrote: »

InvitationNotFound wrote: »

Skoomah wrote: »

MIAT add on was used privately by an inner circle for a long time before it was released for the general public. They only released the add on after an even more powerful one was used in its place. There are all sorts of other add ons that help people cheat. There is:

- auto block
- auto heal
- super speed
- macro slice
- auto detect
- Etc

regardless of what is in the TOS, these add ons break the spirit of fairness and are cheating in my opinion.

any other theories on why pvp populations have dropped so dramatically????

The API does not allow an addon directly to move, block or interact with certain aspects of the game directly. If you claim such things please provide evidence. And if you refer to third party applications (binaries and not addons) this has nothing to do with the addon API in itself.

Without evidence this simply looks like some uneducated claims which are in 99.9% of all cases wrong. You might simply not have understood how things work.

Zbigb4life wrote: »

out51d3r wrote: »

Dorrino wrote: »

There's no grey area as in 'smart people can do what ZOS prevented them to do to gain advantage'.

Definitely. You are using the tools ZOS provides. Nothing wrong with that. Whether or not ZOS should provide those specific tools is a reasonable question, but it's ultimately irrelevant unless they remove them. We all play the game that we have, not the perfect game that exists only in our imaginations. If you want to win, use the tools or you put yourself at disadvantage to those who do.

I don't agree with this idea. It's wrong to use this add on and simply because it exists shouldn't force other players to use it as well. ZOS should ban everyone that uses this add on.

let's look at the following section in the terms of service:

ZeniMax may, in its discretion, make available to You one or more application programming interfaces and associated documentation (each an "API") to allow You to create, download, enable, use, or associate Content (excluding Game Mods), that modifies or otherwise provides enhanced features to the user interface ("Add-ons") for a Game. The API and Add-ons are Software for purposes of these Terms of Service and are subject to these Terms of Service and the Supplemental Terms applicable to the API and the Add-Ons. Notwithstanding anything to the contrary in these Terms of Service, if the Supplemental Terms for an API or Add-on directly conflict with specific terms and conditions in these Terms of Service or any other Supplemental Terms, the Supplemental Terms for an API or Add-on will control, but solely for purpose of the specific API and Add-on and not for any other purpose.

Excerpt from the Add-On terms:

ZOS RESERVES THE RIGHT TO CHANGE THE API AT ANY TIME, OR TO DISABLE AND/OR RESTRICT ANY ADD-ONS AT ANY TIME;

So let's look at the addon again:
It modifies / enhances the game. It is what ZOS wants by providing the API. There aren't any comments about what an addon is allowed to do. The addon was capable of doing way more than that so they took a look at it. They have reviewed it. Then they came up with an API change. That's all they did. So you might have guessed it by now, everything indicates that ZOS is now fine with how the addon works, otherwise they would have implemented further restrictions when they initially reviewed it.

So let's take a look at the whole situation again:
The addon is legit. There is no indication it is abusing bugs or is doing anything ZOS isn't fine with. Calling other players cheaters because they are using this addon is wrong as the definition of cheater doesn't fit. Wanting people to be banned for using it is the same as if you would want people being banned for animation canceling. It's stupid.

Lol at this guy trying soooo damn hard to defend these add-ons and underground cheats. Probably was here posting about the CE not being real too.

Game is down to 1 pvp camp that's barely pop locked at prime time... that speaks volumes in itself.

Nope, feel free to check my comments on CE respectively cheating and you will have a completely different opinion of me.
But it seems that feelings are more important than facts for you.

Anyway, you must play on console or PC/NA as PC/EU has ~2 active campaigns (at least to a certain degree). Claiming Miat's addon is responsible for this is simply ***.

Waffennacht

Why can't ZoS get rid of this.

Obviously highly controversial and wasn't made by ZoS.

Should just ban em all (edit: not the players lol)

Alphaa

Just another crutch

Knootewoot

Waffennacht wrote: »

Why can't ZoS get rid of this.

Obviously highly controversial and wasn't made by ZoS.

Should just ban em all (edit: not the players lol)

Because by now everybody should know that PvP is not on Zos's priority list. I doubt if it's on any list.

I would not be amazed if it will be removed at some point and sold at a later stage as a new PvE chapter. Probably at Oblivion's anniversary. Maybe they leave old cyrodill alive under the new code because they don't know how to remove it but won't fix or add/update anything.

DDuke

So this just surfaced from the esoui.com forums:

Originally Posted by dorrino View Post
While you're here i have a question.

This change obviously severely limits the features of my addon. Can i (we) get an official stance on which parts of the addon are not desirable within ZOS design direction?

Even after the change i have some ideas how to still get the info i need for the addon to work. This will be noticeably more cumbersome and unreliable (probably) though.

In any case my intention is NOT to start an arms race with you guys. And i don't really want to spend hours of developing an intricate system to circumvent this change only to realize you will counter it with some other change

So, please, tell me which features are fine to have within your vision and which features will get an active countermeasures from you?

Thank you,

PS. Chip, in 5-10 min i'll PM you an exploit, that i found, that is very much possible with the current API. It technically allows to automate almost any players actions and CONDITIONALLY call protected and PRIVATE functions even when in combat. Cheers

ZOS_ChipHilseberg
I believe that it was anything that allows you to detect the presence or actions of a hostile player without having to see them.

source: http://www.esoui.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6745


Apparently they applied a "fix" that was supposed to stop attacks from stealth from being detected.

A fix that didn't work and only applied to heavy attacks (you can't see them from stealth).


So anyone telling you "ZOS is fine with it" is full of it.

ZOS is unlikely to even be aware that the addon is still detecting snipes, dark flares etc (and their cast timers, before the skill is even in the air) from stealth, because none of the knuckleheads on esoui reported them to still be working after the "fix".

Sedare

Miat's is a Cheat. It allows notification of incoming attacks of a certain kind, IN and OUT of stealth. Stealthies take note, prior to your stealth attack start a heavy or lethal or any cancellable attack. if the intended target blocks, dismounts, dodge-rolls, etc, cancel attack immediately and either move on or try and get them when it's more to your advantage.

How is Miat's a cheat? It gives a distinct advantage to a player over others that cannot be countered with in game mechanics except through overwhelming attacks by multiple targets (you can't dodge them all). "Oh but just light attack or you know don't use anything from stealth or from the list of marked attacks." Screw that. it nullfies classes and playstyles outside of the game's own mechanics and gear.

Stealth play is part of the game, whether people like it or not. It has it's advantages and disadvantages. It can be nullified with in-game abilities and items. But this add-on nullifies most of stealth play, as well as most of the heavier attacks out of stealth with

Tack on people tying the notification to a macro/script so they auto block or dodge and you have a full on invuln.

This add-on in its entirety should not exist, be allowed, or anything else. Add-ons in general need to have some kind of approval process (oh noes ZoS will actually have to do some work) so they may not be implemented publicly or privately (i.e. miat for 1 and never released to the public). This game is abused to the extreme. There's no wonder pvp is dying, an indicator of the game pop.

Miat's is a cheat. It is a cheat. It is a cheat. It is a cheat.

Gan Xing

Drummerx04 wrote: »

I currently start a cast time attack like frags just to see if someone is using the addon. If I see them immediately dismount and start blocking and dodging, I just follow them around in stealth casting and cancelling causing a notification to pop up on their screen over and over and over again for up to 5-10 minutes.

Just sneak around and heavy attack with melee. They detect that too. Miats also used to tell you how many are in stealthed in a certain area around you (granted they went into stealth while you were there)

Jade1986

Gan Xing wrote: »

Drummerx04 wrote: »

I currently start a cast time attack like frags just to see if someone is using the addon. If I see them immediately dismount and start blocking and dodging, I just follow them around in stealth casting and cancelling causing a notification to pop up on their screen over and over and over again for up to 5-10 minutes.

Just sneak around and heavy attack with melee. They detect that too. Miats also used to tell you how many are in stealthed in a certain area around you (granted they went into stealth while you were there)

Yet he argues that he is advocating a level playing field.

Jade1986

Sedare wrote: »

Miat's is a Cheat. It allows notification of incoming attacks of a certain kind, IN and OUT of stealth. Stealthies take note, prior to your stealth attack start a heavy or lethal or any cancellable attack. if the intended target blocks, dismounts, dodge-rolls, etc, cancel attack immediately and either move on or try and get them when it's more to your advantage.

How is Miat's a cheat? It gives a distinct advantage to a player over others that cannot be countered with in game mechanics except through overwhelming attacks by multiple targets (you can't dodge them all). "Oh but just light attack or you know don't use anything from stealth or from the list of marked attacks." Screw that. it nullfies classes and playstyles outside of the game's own mechanics and gear.

Stealth play is part of the game, whether people like it or not. It has it's advantages and disadvantages. It can be nullified with in-game abilities and items. But this add-on nullifies most of stealth play, as well as most of the heavier attacks out of stealth with

Tack on people tying the notification to a macro/script so they auto block or dodge and you have a full on invuln.

This add-on in its entirety should not exist, be allowed, or anything else. Add-ons in general need to have some kind of approval process (oh noes ZoS will actually have to do some work) so they may not be implemented publicly or privately (i.e. miat for 1 and never released to the public). This game is abused to the extreme. There's no wonder pvp is dying, an indicator of the game pop.

Miat's is a cheat. It is a cheat. It is a cheat. It is a cheat.

Sedare wrote: »

Miat's is a Cheat. It allows notification of incoming attacks of a certain kind, IN and OUT of stealth. Stealthies take note, prior to your stealth attack start a heavy or lethal or any cancellable attack. if the intended target blocks, dismounts, dodge-rolls, etc, cancel attack immediately and either move on or try and get them when it's more to your advantage.

How is Miat's a cheat? It gives a distinct advantage to a player over others that cannot be countered with in game mechanics except through overwhelming attacks by multiple targets (you can't dodge them all). "Oh but just light attack or you know don't use anything from stealth or from the list of marked attacks." Screw that. it nullfies classes and playstyles outside of the game's own mechanics and gear.

Stealth play is part of the game, whether people like it or not. It has it's advantages and disadvantages. It can be nullified with in-game abilities and items. But this add-on nullifies most of stealth play, as well as most of the heavier attacks out of stealth with

Tack on people tying the notification to a macro/script so they auto block or dodge and you have a full on invuln.

This add-on in its entirety should not exist, be allowed, or anything else. Add-ons in general need to have some kind of approval process (oh noes ZoS will actually have to do some work) so they may not be implemented publicly or privately (i.e. miat for 1 and never released to the public). This game is abused to the extreme. There's no wonder pvp is dying, an indicator of the game pop.

Miat's is a cheat. It is a cheat. It is a cheat. It is a cheat.

I remember when the 7 day campaigns had at least TWO bars, sometimes three. They are ghost towns now. Hmm, I wonder why....

STEVIL

laced wrote: »

Sedare wrote: »

Miat's is a Cheat. It allows notification of incoming attacks of a certain kind, IN and OUT of stealth. Stealthies take note, prior to your stealth attack start a heavy or lethal or any cancellable attack. if the intended target blocks, dismounts, dodge-rolls, etc, cancel attack immediately and either move on or try and get them when it's more to your advantage.

How is Miat's a cheat? It gives a distinct advantage to a player over others that cannot be countered with in game mechanics except through overwhelming attacks by multiple targets (you can't dodge them all). "Oh but just light attack or you know don't use anything from stealth or from the list of marked attacks." Screw that. it nullfies classes and playstyles outside of the game's own mechanics and gear.

Stealth play is part of the game, whether people like it or not. It has it's advantages and disadvantages. It can be nullified with in-game abilities and items. But this add-on nullifies most of stealth play, as well as most of the heavier attacks out of stealth with

Tack on people tying the notification to a macro/script so they auto block or dodge and you have a full on invuln.

This add-on in its entirety should not exist, be allowed, or anything else. Add-ons in general need to have some kind of approval process (oh noes ZoS will actually have to do some work) so they may not be implemented publicly or privately (i.e. miat for 1 and never released to the public). This game is abused to the extreme. There's no wonder pvp is dying, an indicator of the game pop.

Miat's is a cheat. It is a cheat. It is a cheat. It is a cheat.

Sedare wrote: »

Miat's is a Cheat. It allows notification of incoming attacks of a certain kind, IN and OUT of stealth. Stealthies take note, prior to your stealth attack start a heavy or lethal or any cancellable attack. if the intended target blocks, dismounts, dodge-rolls, etc, cancel attack immediately and either move on or try and get them when it's more to your advantage.

How is Miat's a cheat? It gives a distinct advantage to a player over others that cannot be countered with in game mechanics except through overwhelming attacks by multiple targets (you can't dodge them all). "Oh but just light attack or you know don't use anything from stealth or from the list of marked attacks." Screw that. it nullfies classes and playstyles outside of the game's own mechanics and gear.

Stealth play is part of the game, whether people like it or not. It has it's advantages and disadvantages. It can be nullified with in-game abilities and items. But this add-on nullifies most of stealth play, as well as most of the heavier attacks out of stealth with

Tack on people tying the notification to a macro/script so they auto block or dodge and you have a full on invuln.

This add-on in its entirety should not exist, be allowed, or anything else. Add-ons in general need to have some kind of approval process (oh noes ZoS will actually have to do some work) so they may not be implemented publicly or privately (i.e. miat for 1 and never released to the public). This game is abused to the extreme. There's no wonder pvp is dying, an indicator of the game pop.

Miat's is a cheat. It is a cheat. It is a cheat. It is a cheat.

I remember when the 7 day campaigns had at least TWO bars, sometimes three. They are ghost towns now. Hmm, I wonder why....

likely for a wide variety of reasons mostly not related to this add-on.

if i use this forum as a judge i see a lot more PVP BAD threads that are not about Miats than are.

killimandrosb16_ESO

well, obviously the reasons for pvp lakes drying out is more than related to Miats, but I know for a fact its one reason (small anti zerg group I used to roam in left because of this). Why? Because when you face a zerg, you cant go head in melee. You have to pick out one by one the herd, and even that takes lots of dedication and teamwork because of the buffs being in a zerg gives. Now, when your targets almost instantly dodges in the middle of that zerg, you know it has very little to do with perception and mechanics given only by Zenimax' standard UI. Especially because this never happened before addon being available. Then after a period of time, you notice more and more zerglings dodge when being attacked by anti zergers in stealth/hidden positions. In the end you really dont have a chance anymore to pick out and weaken the zerg. If it was difficult firstplace to do that in a semi organized zerg, its now impossible. Yes, you can still pick out the random zerger running in a pick up zerg, or trying to pick up with his zerg, but that doesnt weaken the zerg itself.
Now why are these anti zerg groups so important against zerging? Not because they wipe the zerg alone, hell no. But because when organized groups lose two or three party members, they turn around and go back to pick up who they lost. They always do, unless they spawn a camp (which is also considered a good outcome for the anti zergers), This halts the mobility of the zerg, preferably in a spot where that zerg is pretty useless for the campaign. Nothing was as satisfying as making a zerg roam around in the middle of nowhere keeping the ress chain up. That i snow effectively stopped because the will just dodge through it, meaning there is even more reason behind joining in a zerg today than before, meaning again you get heavier lag cause only way now to stop a zerg is by making a bigger zerg (lag, loading screens, soloers stop playing etc.)
So yes, Miats has its fair share of the problems within the lakes, but obviously not all.

Jade1986

STEVIL wrote: »

laced wrote: »

Sedare wrote: »

Miat's is a Cheat. It allows notification of incoming attacks of a certain kind, IN and OUT of stealth. Stealthies take note, prior to your stealth attack start a heavy or lethal or any cancellable attack. if the intended target blocks, dismounts, dodge-rolls, etc, cancel attack immediately and either move on or try and get them when it's more to your advantage.

How is Miat's a cheat? It gives a distinct advantage to a player over others that cannot be countered with in game mechanics except through overwhelming attacks by multiple targets (you can't dodge them all). "Oh but just light attack or you know don't use anything from stealth or from the list of marked attacks." Screw that. it nullfies classes and playstyles outside of the game's own mechanics and gear.

Stealth play is part of the game, whether people like it or not. It has it's advantages and disadvantages. It can be nullified with in-game abilities and items. But this add-on nullifies most of stealth play, as well as most of the heavier attacks out of stealth with

Tack on people tying the notification to a macro/script so they auto block or dodge and you have a full on invuln.

This add-on in its entirety should not exist, be allowed, or anything else. Add-ons in general need to have some kind of approval process (oh noes ZoS will actually have to do some work) so they may not be implemented publicly or privately (i.e. miat for 1 and never released to the public). This game is abused to the extreme. There's no wonder pvp is dying, an indicator of the game pop.

Miat's is a cheat. It is a cheat. It is a cheat. It is a cheat.

Sedare wrote: »

Miat's is a Cheat. It allows notification of incoming attacks of a certain kind, IN and OUT of stealth. Stealthies take note, prior to your stealth attack start a heavy or lethal or any cancellable attack. if the intended target blocks, dismounts, dodge-rolls, etc, cancel attack immediately and either move on or try and get them when it's more to your advantage.

How is Miat's a cheat? It gives a distinct advantage to a player over others that cannot be countered with in game mechanics except through overwhelming attacks by multiple targets (you can't dodge them all). "Oh but just light attack or you know don't use anything from stealth or from the list of marked attacks." Screw that. it nullfies classes and playstyles outside of the game's own mechanics and gear.

Stealth play is part of the game, whether people like it or not. It has it's advantages and disadvantages. It can be nullified with in-game abilities and items. But this add-on nullifies most of stealth play, as well as most of the heavier attacks out of stealth with

Tack on people tying the notification to a macro/script so they auto block or dodge and you have a full on invuln.

This add-on in its entirety should not exist, be allowed, or anything else. Add-ons in general need to have some kind of approval process (oh noes ZoS will actually have to do some work) so they may not be implemented publicly or privately (i.e. miat for 1 and never released to the public). This game is abused to the extreme. There's no wonder pvp is dying, an indicator of the game pop.

Miat's is a cheat. It is a cheat. It is a cheat. It is a cheat.

I remember when the 7 day campaigns had at least TWO bars, sometimes three. They are ghost towns now. Hmm, I wonder why....

likely for a wide variety of reasons mostly not related to this add-on.

if i use this forum as a judge i see a lot more PVP BAD threads that are not about Miats than are.

Its not just the forums, its reddit, FB, twitter, zone chat in cyro, guild chat, accros the board the majority of people do not like the add on and consider it cancer, and also accross the board people said the add on would be fine without the cheat alerts.

Vapirko

What I don’t get is why someone would write this addon in the first place. I guess it’s “cool” they shared it. But why do you want to play knowing you have a very distinct and unfair advantage over other players? And it is an advantage. The amount of damage and status effects you can mitigate with this addon makes the game a lot easier. I tried it and deleted it because it just feels like complete bs. Forget anyone trying to hit me with a ranged attack. It makes many abilities downright laughable.

STEVIL

laced wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

laced wrote: »

Sedare wrote: »

Miat's is a Cheat. It allows notification of incoming attacks of a certain kind, IN and OUT of stealth. Stealthies take note, prior to your stealth attack start a heavy or lethal or any cancellable attack. if the intended target blocks, dismounts, dodge-rolls, etc, cancel attack immediately and either move on or try and get them when it's more to your advantage.

How is Miat's a cheat? It gives a distinct advantage to a player over others that cannot be countered with in game mechanics except through overwhelming attacks by multiple targets (you can't dodge them all). "Oh but just light attack or you know don't use anything from stealth or from the list of marked attacks." Screw that. it nullfies classes and playstyles outside of the game's own mechanics and gear.

Stealth play is part of the game, whether people like it or not. It has it's advantages and disadvantages. It can be nullified with in-game abilities and items. But this add-on nullifies most of stealth play, as well as most of the heavier attacks out of stealth with

Tack on people tying the notification to a macro/script so they auto block or dodge and you have a full on invuln.

This add-on in its entirety should not exist, be allowed, or anything else. Add-ons in general need to have some kind of approval process (oh noes ZoS will actually have to do some work) so they may not be implemented publicly or privately (i.e. miat for 1 and never released to the public). This game is abused to the extreme. There's no wonder pvp is dying, an indicator of the game pop.

Miat's is a cheat. It is a cheat. It is a cheat. It is a cheat.

Sedare wrote: »

Miat's is a Cheat. It allows notification of incoming attacks of a certain kind, IN and OUT of stealth. Stealthies take note, prior to your stealth attack start a heavy or lethal or any cancellable attack. if the intended target blocks, dismounts, dodge-rolls, etc, cancel attack immediately and either move on or try and get them when it's more to your advantage.

How is Miat's a cheat? It gives a distinct advantage to a player over others that cannot be countered with in game mechanics except through overwhelming attacks by multiple targets (you can't dodge them all). "Oh but just light attack or you know don't use anything from stealth or from the list of marked attacks." Screw that. it nullfies classes and playstyles outside of the game's own mechanics and gear.

Stealth play is part of the game, whether people like it or not. It has it's advantages and disadvantages. It can be nullified with in-game abilities and items. But this add-on nullifies most of stealth play, as well as most of the heavier attacks out of stealth with

Tack on people tying the notification to a macro/script so they auto block or dodge and you have a full on invuln.

This add-on in its entirety should not exist, be allowed, or anything else. Add-ons in general need to have some kind of approval process (oh noes ZoS will actually have to do some work) so they may not be implemented publicly or privately (i.e. miat for 1 and never released to the public). This game is abused to the extreme. There's no wonder pvp is dying, an indicator of the game pop.

Miat's is a cheat. It is a cheat. It is a cheat. It is a cheat.

I remember when the 7 day campaigns had at least TWO bars, sometimes three. They are ghost towns now. Hmm, I wonder why....

likely for a wide variety of reasons mostly not related to this add-on.

if i use this forum as a judge i see a lot more PVP BAD threads that are not about Miats than are.

Its not just the forums, its reddit, FB, twitter, zone chat in cyro, guild chat, accros the board the majority of people do not like the add on and consider it cancer, and also accross the board people said the add on would be fine without the cheat alerts.

So what?

not saying anybody likes this or likes that.

just saying that you cannot blame miats as the cause of low PVP turnout because folks don't like miats when there are a whole lot of other things going on that people also roundly disagree with for PVP.

How many on reddit say they like the PVP lag when asked about lag in Cyrodil?

But lets be very clear with this - **IF** (HYPOTHESIS) Miats is a principle cause for PVP low turnout then we have an obvious easy way to verify that (TEST) and that is to look to console and see if they have much higher PVP rates than PC becuase on console we have no Miats in play?

Now, it is not perfect method by any stretch, consoles are different than PC in other regards but the main difference for add-ons is very drastic and so if it is Miats as any sort of significant causal element for low PVP play... then we should be able to see the difference.

Have not myself heard of the thriving robust crammed to the gills PVP on consoles heads and shoulders above PC... have you?

No?

Like i said, Miats is one add-on that a subset of players dislikes and is one factor among many that impact PVP play numbers for some, or so they claim.

But, simply put, as others have stated, the only real diff with miats is it went public while logically there are others that did not.

rfennell_ESO

Not going to comment on Miat's legality illegality past saying it's *currently* legal. It's on ZOS on whether or not it works.

However, if you are an avid pvper and recall whenabouts the precursor (or private version) came out... Every single person using it was playing the "u need 2 git gud" game and hiding their usage of it behind insults.

There are worse things in game though.... Like: How "crit rush" builds that are mostly unskilled play. Exploited Critical Rush (you hear the sound of it hitting you while they are nowhere near you, so you really can't "react" to it), followed by Dawnbreaker (zero animation) and reverse slice (macro sliced, as it will hit you from out of range (by a lot)). That's not skill... that's not even close to being skillful play. It's exploitative play and the "heroes" of twitch that abuse it are absolutely exploiting it, but meanwhile rant diatribes about "skill".

What makes it all worse is the conjunction of these play styles... relying on Miat's (or whatever) to prevent their overextending from resulting in them dying and then building entirely around exploiting critical rush (or any charge) with Dawnbreaker (not being done manually animation cancel) and the spam of out of range reverse slice (executioner) that's being macro sliced so you can't see it and it's hits you no matter if you dodge or get out of range. Many follow all that up with bugged out streak where they are gone and out of range before you can even attack them. It's pretty much cancerous play.. but it will get you invited to esolive where you can talk about skill and be treated like an eso rockstar while the ZOS folks who are unaware, clueless and/or oblivious laud you as an ambassador of the game.

The names I'm not going to bother naming, as they and their sycophants are nearly immediate in getting reference to their behavior eliminated, also use Twitch as a harassment tool. It might not be "in game", but it's certainly used to harass people in game as they bad mouth people and call for their harassment. Saying "you can ignore them" doesn't apply to harassment via proxy.

Miat's does empower these things. It's made play styles that ought not be very successful (and in many cases are exploitative) work.

Skoomah

MIATS is hands down terrible for the game and all those players that use it have an unfair advantage. ZOS is way too liberal with what add ons they allow.

Obviously people care about the issues around cheating, etc. or else we wouldn't be on here [snip] about the game and asking for changes.

ZOS should address these issues. PVE is a bore fest. PVP is where the real fun is.

Akinos

I remember when soundplay was a big part of PvP, having to listen for things like crystal frags, snipe and nightblades cloaking around you.

But now Miat's addon basically listens for you. The skill this game requires is rapidly approaching zero. Addons like this aren't the only issue either.

Skoomah

Where can we go to get quality fights?

Cyrodiil - Zerg Fest, Lag, Mostly Empty
Imperial City - Mostly Empty
Battlegrounds - Fun when in a premade, very easy to spot cheaters who don't die and rack up 30 kills a match
Duels - Good practice but not real PVP

Jade1986

STEVIL wrote: »

laced wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

laced wrote: »

Sedare wrote: »

Miat's is a Cheat. It allows notification of incoming attacks of a certain kind, IN and OUT of stealth. Stealthies take note, prior to your stealth attack start a heavy or lethal or any cancellable attack. if the intended target blocks, dismounts, dodge-rolls, etc, cancel attack immediately and either move on or try and get them when it's more to your advantage.

How is Miat's a cheat? It gives a distinct advantage to a player over others that cannot be countered with in game mechanics except through overwhelming attacks by multiple targets (you can't dodge them all). "Oh but just light attack or you know don't use anything from stealth or from the list of marked attacks." Screw that. it nullfies classes and playstyles outside of the game's own mechanics and gear.

Stealth play is part of the game, whether people like it or not. It has it's advantages and disadvantages. It can be nullified with in-game abilities and items. But this add-on nullifies most of stealth play, as well as most of the heavier attacks out of stealth with

Tack on people tying the notification to a macro/script so they auto block or dodge and you have a full on invuln.

This add-on in its entirety should not exist, be allowed, or anything else. Add-ons in general need to have some kind of approval process (oh noes ZoS will actually have to do some work) so they may not be implemented publicly or privately (i.e. miat for 1 and never released to the public). This game is abused to the extreme. There's no wonder pvp is dying, an indicator of the game pop.

Miat's is a cheat. It is a cheat. It is a cheat. It is a cheat.

Sedare wrote: »

Miat's is a Cheat. It allows notification of incoming attacks of a certain kind, IN and OUT of stealth. Stealthies take note, prior to your stealth attack start a heavy or lethal or any cancellable attack. if the intended target blocks, dismounts, dodge-rolls, etc, cancel attack immediately and either move on or try and get them when it's more to your advantage.

How is Miat's a cheat? It gives a distinct advantage to a player over others that cannot be countered with in game mechanics except through overwhelming attacks by multiple targets (you can't dodge them all). "Oh but just light attack or you know don't use anything from stealth or from the list of marked attacks." Screw that. it nullfies classes and playstyles outside of the game's own mechanics and gear.

Stealth play is part of the game, whether people like it or not. It has it's advantages and disadvantages. It can be nullified with in-game abilities and items. But this add-on nullifies most of stealth play, as well as most of the heavier attacks out of stealth with

Tack on people tying the notification to a macro/script so they auto block or dodge and you have a full on invuln.

This add-on in its entirety should not exist, be allowed, or anything else. Add-ons in general need to have some kind of approval process (oh noes ZoS will actually have to do some work) so they may not be implemented publicly or privately (i.e. miat for 1 and never released to the public). This game is abused to the extreme. There's no wonder pvp is dying, an indicator of the game pop.

Miat's is a cheat. It is a cheat. It is a cheat. It is a cheat.

I remember when the 7 day campaigns had at least TWO bars, sometimes three. They are ghost towns now. Hmm, I wonder why....

likely for a wide variety of reasons mostly not related to this add-on.

if i use this forum as a judge i see a lot more PVP BAD threads that are not about Miats than are.

Its not just the forums, its reddit, FB, twitter, zone chat in cyro, guild chat, accros the board the majority of people do not like the add on and consider it cancer, and also accross the board people said the add on would be fine without the cheat alerts.

So what?

not saying anybody likes this or likes that.

just saying that you cannot blame miats as the cause of low PVP turnout because folks don't like miats when there are a whole lot of other things going on that people also roundly disagree with for PVP.

How many on reddit say they like the PVP lag when asked about lag in Cyrodil?

But lets be very clear with this - **IF** (HYPOTHESIS) Miats is a principle cause for PVP low turnout then we have an obvious easy way to verify that (TEST) and that is to look to console and see if they have much higher PVP rates than PC becuase on console we have no Miats in play?

Now, it is not perfect method by any stretch, consoles are different than PC in other regards but the main difference for add-ons is very drastic and so if it is Miats as any sort of significant causal element for low PVP play... then we should be able to see the difference.

Have not myself heard of the thriving robust crammed to the gills PVP on consoles heads and shoulders above PC... have you?

No?

Like i said, Miats is one add-on that a subset of players dislikes and is one factor among many that impact PVP play numbers for some, or so they claim.

But, simply put, as others have stated, the only real diff with miats is it went public while logically there are others that did not.

I never said it is the only reason, of course the lag, framerate, and loading screen issues are a part of it too, but miats is partially responsible as well.

And actually there have been quite a number of people leaving pc and going to console BECAUSE of add ons like this. Console numbers will always be lower because they have to pay two subs to play. There is actually a perfect way to see what people think. An in game poll, which ZoS can do, or an e-mail poll to ask all players with an active account of what they think of the range neutering aspect of the add on. I can guarantee you the numbers, just like all unofficial polls have been, will be heavily against it.

DDuke

Actually, I'm quite sure consoles have a higher PvP population these days.

Atleast there's far more console youtubers creating content than PC ones (Twitch is still somewhat PC dominated).


Maybe someone from consoles can tell us what the population is like over there?

Witar

Zos should have outlaw it long long time ago. It gives way too much advantage over people who don't use it.

Skoomah

The integrity of this game is messed up. No one is going to believe cheating has been eliminated even if it does happen now.

kyle.wilson

As much as I dislike Miat's addon, we need to be more clear to zos that we are not happy that the API allows for this.
There are people running similar addons that they created, and probably do even more.

We are too hyper focused on one bs addon and not the system that allowed it to exist. He could pull his addon from public, but right now nothing would prevent its use.

coop500

Is this thing outlawed now?

STEVIL

laced wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

laced wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

laced wrote: »

Sedare wrote: »

Miat's is a Cheat. It allows notification of incoming attacks of a certain kind, IN and OUT of stealth. Stealthies take note, prior to your stealth attack start a heavy or lethal or any cancellable attack. if the intended target blocks, dismounts, dodge-rolls, etc, cancel attack immediately and either move on or try and get them when it's more to your advantage.

How is Miat's a cheat? It gives a distinct advantage to a player over others that cannot be countered with in game mechanics except through overwhelming attacks by multiple targets (you can't dodge them all). "Oh but just light attack or you know don't use anything from stealth or from the list of marked attacks." Screw that. it nullfies classes and playstyles outside of the game's own mechanics and gear.

Stealth play is part of the game, whether people like it or not. It has it's advantages and disadvantages. It can be nullified with in-game abilities and items. But this add-on nullifies most of stealth play, as well as most of the heavier attacks out of stealth with

Tack on people tying the notification to a macro/script so they auto block or dodge and you have a full on invuln.

This add-on in its entirety should not exist, be allowed, or anything else. Add-ons in general need to have some kind of approval process (oh noes ZoS will actually have to do some work) so they may not be implemented publicly or privately (i.e. miat for 1 and never released to the public). This game is abused to the extreme. There's no wonder pvp is dying, an indicator of the game pop.

Miat's is a cheat. It is a cheat. It is a cheat. It is a cheat.

Sedare wrote: »

Miat's is a Cheat. It allows notification of incoming attacks of a certain kind, IN and OUT of stealth. Stealthies take note, prior to your stealth attack start a heavy or lethal or any cancellable attack. if the intended target blocks, dismounts, dodge-rolls, etc, cancel attack immediately and either move on or try and get them when it's more to your advantage.

How is Miat's a cheat? It gives a distinct advantage to a player over others that cannot be countered with in game mechanics except through overwhelming attacks by multiple targets (you can't dodge them all). "Oh but just light attack or you know don't use anything from stealth or from the list of marked attacks." Screw that. it nullfies classes and playstyles outside of the game's own mechanics and gear.

Stealth play is part of the game, whether people like it or not. It has it's advantages and disadvantages. It can be nullified with in-game abilities and items. But this add-on nullifies most of stealth play, as well as most of the heavier attacks out of stealth with

Tack on people tying the notification to a macro/script so they auto block or dodge and you have a full on invuln.

This add-on in its entirety should not exist, be allowed, or anything else. Add-ons in general need to have some kind of approval process (oh noes ZoS will actually have to do some work) so they may not be implemented publicly or privately (i.e. miat for 1 and never released to the public). This game is abused to the extreme. There's no wonder pvp is dying, an indicator of the game pop.

Miat's is a cheat. It is a cheat. It is a cheat. It is a cheat.

I remember when the 7 day campaigns had at least TWO bars, sometimes three. They are ghost towns now. Hmm, I wonder why....

likely for a wide variety of reasons mostly not related to this add-on.

if i use this forum as a judge i see a lot more PVP BAD threads that are not about Miats than are.

Its not just the forums, its reddit, FB, twitter, zone chat in cyro, guild chat, accros the board the majority of people do not like the add on and consider it cancer, and also accross the board people said the add on would be fine without the cheat alerts.

So what?

not saying anybody likes this or likes that.

just saying that you cannot blame miats as the cause of low PVP turnout because folks don't like miats when there are a whole lot of other things going on that people also roundly disagree with for PVP.

How many on reddit say they like the PVP lag when asked about lag in Cyrodil?

But lets be very clear with this - **IF** (HYPOTHESIS) Miats is a principle cause for PVP low turnout then we have an obvious easy way to verify that (TEST) and that is to look to console and see if they have much higher PVP rates than PC becuase on console we have no Miats in play?

Now, it is not perfect method by any stretch, consoles are different than PC in other regards but the main difference for add-ons is very drastic and so if it is Miats as any sort of significant causal element for low PVP play... then we should be able to see the difference.

Have not myself heard of the thriving robust crammed to the gills PVP on consoles heads and shoulders above PC... have you?

No?

Like i said, Miats is one add-on that a subset of players dislikes and is one factor among many that impact PVP play numbers for some, or so they claim.

But, simply put, as others have stated, the only real diff with miats is it went public while logically there are others that did not.

I never said it is the only reason, of course the lag, framerate, and loading screen issues are a part of it too, but miats is partially responsible as well.

And actually there have been quite a number of people leaving pc and going to console BECAUSE of add ons like this. Console numbers will always be lower because they have to pay two subs to play. There is actually a perfect way to see what people think. An in game poll, which ZoS can do, or an e-mail poll to ask all players with an active account of what they think of the range neutering aspect of the add on. I can guarantee you the numbers, just like all unofficial polls have been, will be heavily against it.

of course you did not say miats was the only reason and thats why i did not assert that you did. There is however not enoughn time for me to list all the things you didn't say so... feel free to continue to defend starw men.

What you did say "I remember when the 7 day campaigns had at least TWO bars, sometimes three. They are ghost towns now. Hmm, I wonder why...." in a thread which is about Miats and its impact.

Now, really you did not say anything if we ignore content. In context you seem to be attempting to **imply** Miats is why those PVP campaigns are ghost towns and double down on the amount of anger you see.

if that wasn't your intent.. .if you only meant to say Miats was a single drop in the lake of reasons folks dont play PVP with you anymore, that intent was not made evident by your post(s).

As for the alleged numbers of players to console for PVP over Miats or whatever... I am very ready to see any numbers that back that claim up.

As for your Karnak the Magnificent predictions of what a mythical survey (conducted I hope by by unicorns and gryphons) would produce as its results, thanks for sharing.

Holds Envelope left sealed on Funk and Wagnals porch to forehead...
"Hmmmm...."
"Hmmmm..."
"Hmmmm..."
"Abraham Lincoln's review of "Our American Cousin", Global in-game survey on Miats, Wonder Woman, Kitty Pryde and Lara Croft sharing a night of passion."

takes envelope, rips it open, removes paper from within...

"name three things one might find interesting to speculate about but will never occur."

look up at silent crown...

"What? Too soon?"

#missyouJC

Daedric_NB_187

I just started pvp in this game. Hearing that stuff like this is allowed makes me glad I play on Xbox. In any other game, this would be considered an exploit. How is it not here?

STEVIL

Daedric_NB_187 wrote: »

I just started pvp in this game. Hearing that stuff like this is allowed makes me glad I play on Xbox. In any other game, this would be considered an exploit. How is it not here?

How is an easy question to answer - since that comes down to "ZOS decided."

Why? That is a much bigger question and really more interesting - to some.

DDuke

STEVIL wrote: »

Daedric_NB_187 wrote: »

I just started pvp in this game. Hearing that stuff like this is allowed makes me glad I play on Xbox. In any other game, this would be considered an exploit. How is it not here?

How is an easy question to answer - since that comes down to "ZOS decided."

Why? That is a much bigger question and really more interesting - to some.

Except ZOS didn't decide this is how it should be.

Originally Posted by dorrino View Post
While you're here i have a question.

This change obviously severely limits the features of my addon. Can i (we) get an official stance on which parts of the addon are not desirable within ZOS design direction?

Even after the change i have some ideas how to still get the info i need for the addon to work. This will be noticeably more cumbersome and unreliable (probably) though.

In any case my intention is NOT to start an arms race with you guys. And i don't really want to spend hours of developing an intricate system to circumvent this change only to realize you will counter it with some other change

So, please, tell me which features are fine to have within your vision and which features will get an active countermeasures from you?

Thank you,

PS. Chip, in 5-10 min i'll PM you an exploit, that i found, that is very much possible with the current API. It technically allows to automate almost any players actions and CONDITIONALLY call protected and PRIVATE functions even when in combat. Cheers

ZOS_ChipHilseberg
I believe that it was anything that allows you to detect the presence or actions of a hostile player without having to see them.

Source: http://www.esoui.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6745

So they tried fixing it and the fix removed only notifications for heavy attacks from stealth. Nobody on esoui.com (which the ZOS person responsible for addons/API frequents) reported that the API still allows showing other players ability cast timers.


So we're basicly stuck with a bug that is ruining the game for many people.