So Miat's PVP addon can detect stealth players even when they are in stealth state?

Feanor

I use the addon as I really love the features. I have the notifications turned off as I don't need them though, people write so much about the OPness of magSorcs that I believe it now

Seriously, everything that makes the lives of the Incap-SA-proc set-Executioner NBs a bit worse is a welcome change. Stealth is just so ridiculously badly implemented in this game that it deserves every toning down.

Feanor

From the 3.0.5 patch notes

Sneak attacks no longer grant a bonus to Critical Damage when used against other players. Sneak attacks will continue to guarantee a Critical Strike and stun the target, and will also still grant a bonus to Critical Damage when used against monsters.

Developer Comments:

Even though Sneak attacks currently have a lower Critical Damage bonus against players than against monsters, they still allow you to burst another player down in a matter of seconds without granting them enough time to react. Removing the Critical Damage bonus against players grants victims of sneak attacks more counterplay.

So you get a guaranteed crit, a free stun and the damage on top of the element of surprise when attacking from stealth. This is still too much, but a bit better as when you got the bonus crit damage as well, which was also guaranteed.

DDuke

Feanor wrote: »

Stealth is just so ridiculously badly implemented in this game that it deserves every toning down.

Yeah? I could say the same about multiple things:

• Damage Shields
• Undodgeable mechanics
• Heavy Armor

And it's funny how sorc players seem to have problems with stealth burst, while curse+frag+wrath instagibbing is perfectly ok (or 26k tooltip overloads).


As for "toning down" stealth, I'm not sure stealth requires that - as it currently provides no real advantage besides hiding (a luxury available to everyone btw), especially after proc set nerfs (a major portion of the stamina burst damage).
A crit and a stun isn't much of a benefit, one could argue the stun is a downside even, since you don't want to give you opponent CC immunity early, but rather when they've already taken meaningful damage and can actually be finished off.

If anything, there should be some incentive to actually engage from sneak that doesn't involve instagibbing - perhaps a strong bleed DoT or something.

If this game really cared about keeping the playerbase that enjoys rogue/assassin type characters around, there'd be a whole new bar of skills for stealth specifically (like in other MMOs) & it'd have more in-depth stealth mechanics (e.g. faint "footprints"to track stealthers etc).

Feanor

@DDuke

Sorc burst is very predictable because it's the only thing they have. Curse is purgeable, Frags are one of the easiest projectiles to avoid in the whole game, and Wrath/Fury tickles above 20% HP. I'll grant that the 4s delay or pre-execute phase adds a layer of mental pressure, but it's not different to the feeling when you see the big golden Templar Beam coming at you below that threshold.

In contrast, there is nothing predictable about an HA+Incap+SA+Executioner from stealth unless you react within the 0.5 seconds you have to break free. If it's laggy or you fail to cc break you're dead.

I'm glad we agree instagibbing is not healthy for the game, and I'd fully support a reasonable rework of the armor types and lines. You could even have your MA buffs then, by all means. Reworking LA also might allow to rely less on shields. It's not something I love to do, it's something I need to do, because LA otherwise allows no means of protection at all.

DHale

Miat personally calls you and tells you hey buddy don't be in your inventory in the middle of the open field.

Publius_Scipio

This is my answer as always to the Miat addon and to crazy addons in general. Those that were around in beta and launch will understand right away what it means.

He fought the good fight. We remember you!

Feanor

@Publius_Scipio

That would have also meant ZOS providing a better base game UI. As we know they rather saved the effort and the money...

Malic

Publius_Scipio wrote: »

This is my answer as always to the Miat addon and to crazy addons in general. Those that were around in beta and launch will understand right away what it means.

He fought the good fight. We remember you!

Well ya, the game at beta was intended to be a skill based game where visual and sound ques would determine buff, debuff and skill activation.

They got greedy and created the conditions by which the game could be made easier to appeal to a broader MMO audience. A lot of us came to ESO for that very reason a challenging MMO, and for a while it was I mean do you remember VR6 BEFORE craglorn?

Now its yet another watered down MMO with a cash shop to appeal to casual gamers. The part they absolutely nailed was the PVE storylines and content. But yes when we were in beta it was about the challenging combat thats why a lot of PVP players were frothing at the mouth and it was dam good too.

Its not horrible now, its still fun to play, but he lost to greed.

Publius_Scipio

Feanor wrote: »

Publius_Scipio

That would have also meant ZOS providing a better base game UI. As we know they rather saved the effort and the money...

I am not going to be someone to comment on what ZOS should/could do and why/why not it did or didn't do something. I know as a player Miat's addon and any addon similar is complete bull[snip]. And everyone knows it. You get a visual cue on your screen that someone is attacking you and you dodge roll away.... I have no problem with players that want to customize their UI.

And the story goes that Miat was upset that he was ganked, so he looks into the APIs and ZOS had left the house open with all the lights on. What's the point of range attacks or gap closers then? What about the original version of the addon that told him when someone was in stealth nearby? Completely ruining that aspect of combat for that player.

Edit: The addon alone saved Miat from X amount of PvP deaths. And cost other players X amount of deaths.

DDuke

Feanor wrote: »

@DDuke

Sorc burst is very predictable because it's the only thing they have. Curse is purgeable, Frags are one of the easiest projectiles to avoid in the whole game, and Wrath/Fury tickles above 20% HP. I'll grant that the 4s delay or pre-execute phase adds a layer of mental pressure, but it's not different to the feeling when you see the big golden Templar Beam coming at you below that threshold.

And NB stealth burst is also the only thing they have (also very predictable & all of it dodgeable).

After that burst, what do you have? LA+Surprise Attack weaving that doesn't deal with even half a dmg shield.

Feanor wrote: »

In contrast, there is nothing predictable about an HA+Incap+SA+Executioner from stealth unless you react within the 0.5 seconds you have to break free. If it's laggy or you fail to cc break you're dead.

And if it isn't laggy or CC break doesn't fail, how is that stamblade ever going to kill you? Not to mention that HA+Incap & half of the Surprise Attack get eaten up by a single damage shield.

I've never died to that combo on my 23k health medium stamblade btw, but maybe it's because I don't play when the server is lagging.

Feanor wrote: »

I'm glad we agree instagibbing is not healthy for the game, and I'd fully support a reasonable rework of the armor types and lines. You could even have your MA buffs then, by all means. Reworking LA also might allow to rely less on shields. It's not something I love to do, it's something I need to do, because LA otherwise allows no means of protection at all.

Of course it's not, but the only reason I build my medium stamblade around instagibbing (and why PvP meta in general is built around instagib combos) is because there's otherwise no way to get through someone's defenses, not without going heavy armor & bleed stacking (in which case 1v1 fights still take 15 mins+ between two good players).

In conclusion, I think it's fair to say that the game is a mess currently.

Ragnaroek93

Feanor wrote: »

@DDuke

Sorc burst is very predictable because it's the only thing they have. Curse is purgeable, Frags are one of the easiest projectiles to avoid in the whole game, and Wrath/Fury tickles above 20% HP. I'll grant that the 4s delay or pre-execute phase adds a layer of mental pressure, but it's not different to the feeling when you see the big golden Templar Beam coming at you below that threshold.

In contrast, there is nothing predictable about an HA+Incap+SA+Executioner from stealth unless you react within the 0.5 seconds you have to break free. If it's laggy or you fail to cc break you're dead.

I'm glad we agree instagibbing is not healthy for the game, and I'd fully support a reasonable rework of the armor types and lines. You could even have your MA buffs then, by all means. Reworking LA also might allow to rely less on shields. It's not something I love to do, it's something I need to do, because LA otherwise allows no means of protection at all.

Predictable doesn't mean avoidable. Curse got buffed three times and is unavoidable at all, frags proc extremely often and aren't easy to avoid if you are meele as well. This argument that burst is predictable coming from magicka sorcs is ridiculous, I have yet met three sorcs in total who actually care about doging or blocking my Assassins Will -> Incap combination, which isn't less predictable and has way more counterplay. The other sorcs, who don't know that you can block or roll in this game just facetank it with shields and call it a day...

I'm playing without proc sets at all and I'm one of the few nightblades who actually align Assassins Will with Incap. I'm also not a overstacked sustain build, I have actually 4,2k weapondamage buffed and if I struggle to take down "good" sorcs (lets better say above average, because I don't rate people who never roll or block not as good) because they can just facetank my fully burst combo just with stupid shields. Furthermore it's most unlikely that I kill them with pressure, they won't run out of stam with tripots and the only way to kill them is burst them from 100 to 0, since you can't execute a vampire with healing ward and another shield at low health. And it will for sure not get better for medium armor once proc sets get nerfed and everybody gets more max magicka.

Feanor

@Ragnaroek93

You play CP or noCP? In CP it might be different, yes - that's why I say if something gets adjusted it should be bastion. Of course, Shattering Blows is there to use too...

DDuke

Feanor wrote: »

@Ragnaroek93

You play CP or noCP? In CP it might be different, yes - that's why I say if something gets adjusted it should be bastion. Of course, Shattering Blows is there to use too...

I play noCP mostly (cba to swap CPs between PvE & PvP all the time) - I can burst down a sorc if that sorc has no shield up.

If there's a damage shield, you might as well just try to burst down that 50k health tank nearby.


Shattering Blows is a garbage CP btw, why increase your dmg against shields by some 13-15% (what people can usually spare in Atronach), when you can increase it against everyone by 13-15% by going Master-at-Arms instead? Most stamblade damage is direct damage, so Shattering Blows would only scale better for poison injection/axe bleed, meaning it's not really worth it.

Sheva I 7 I

Drummerx04 wrote: »

I currently start a cast time attack like frags just to see if someone is using the addon. If I see them immediately dismount and start blocking and dodging, I just follow them around in stealth casting and cancelling causing a notification to pop up on their screen over and over and over again for up to 5-10 minutes.

very cool frag nightblade u got

DDuke

DHale wrote: »

Miat personally calls you and tells you hey buddy don't be in your inventory in the middle of the open field.

I sometimes try to bait gankers by looking at inventory when I know they're around, and when they engage: CC break->cloak->det pot->gather ap

coop500

This is a hard subject for me, because I hate ganking with a passion, I think it's cowardly as it has zero counterplay, no playstyle should have no counterplay. As someone here said, it's only fun for the player of the ganker, as for everyone else, we get killed for doing nothing wrong, merely just existing and becoming a target of some guy who won't just face us.

But this addon does also add a unfair advantage, something halfway in between wouldn't be terrible, but probably from ZOS so everyone can have it. We need counterplay for ganking, but a addon that kills it entirely is overboard. We got the two extremes here and someone needs to find a happy medium.

dsalter

coop500 wrote: »

This is a hard subject for me, because I hate ganking with a passion, I think it's cowardly as it has zero counterplay, no playstyle should have no counterplay. As someone here said, it's only fun for the player of the ganker, as for everyone else, we get killed for doing nothing wrong, merely just existing and becoming a target of some guy who won't just face us.

But this addon does also add a unfair advantage, something halfway in between wouldn't be terrible, but probably from ZOS so everyone can have it. We need counterplay for ganking, but a addon that kills it entirely is overboard. We got the two extremes here and someone needs to find a happy medium.

i wouldnt mind a new armor trait that reduces stealth damage delt and taken by 6%(gold) per piece, so gankers cant abuse it to save themselves from other gankers.

coop500

dsalter wrote: »

coop500 wrote: »

This is a hard subject for me, because I hate ganking with a passion, I think it's cowardly as it has zero counterplay, no playstyle should have no counterplay. As someone here said, it's only fun for the player of the ganker, as for everyone else, we get killed for doing nothing wrong, merely just existing and becoming a target of some guy who won't just face us.

But this addon does also add a unfair advantage, something halfway in between wouldn't be terrible, but probably from ZOS so everyone can have it. We need counterplay for ganking, but a addon that kills it entirely is overboard. We got the two extremes here and someone needs to find a happy medium.

i wouldnt mind a new armor trait that reduces stealth damage delt and taken by 6%(gold) per piece, so gankers cant abuse it to save themselves from other gankers.

Stealth damage is not the only problem with gankers though, they do a fast CC on you so you can't do anything.
That armor would help though, I'd wear it in a heartbeat XD.

DDuke

coop500 wrote: »

dsalter wrote: »

coop500 wrote: »

This is a hard subject for me, because I hate ganking with a passion, I think it's cowardly as it has zero counterplay, no playstyle should have no counterplay. As someone here said, it's only fun for the player of the ganker, as for everyone else, we get killed for doing nothing wrong, merely just existing and becoming a target of some guy who won't just face us.

But this addon does also add a unfair advantage, something halfway in between wouldn't be terrible, but probably from ZOS so everyone can have it. We need counterplay for ganking, but a addon that kills it entirely is overboard. We got the two extremes here and someone needs to find a happy medium.

i wouldnt mind a new armor trait that reduces stealth damage delt and taken by 6%(gold) per piece, so gankers cant abuse it to save themselves from other gankers.

Stealth damage is not the only problem with gankers though, they do a fast CC on you so you can't do anything.
That armor would help though, I'd wear it in a heartbeat XD.

Or you could just slot Radiant Magelight for -50% stealth damage taken and use impen on those armor pieces to reduce it even further (as stealth damage is always critical damage).

Tbh, there are plenty of "counters" to the gankers, you'd just have to slot a few different skills.

If you want to see stuff that doesn't actually have counters, just play a medium armor character (ganker or not, doesn't matter) and get hit by Soul Assault, birds or any of the other billion undodgeable things. The only "counter" to those is to not play a medium armor character.

coop500

DDuke wrote: »

coop500 wrote: »

dsalter wrote: »

coop500 wrote: »

This is a hard subject for me, because I hate ganking with a passion, I think it's cowardly as it has zero counterplay, no playstyle should have no counterplay. As someone here said, it's only fun for the player of the ganker, as for everyone else, we get killed for doing nothing wrong, merely just existing and becoming a target of some guy who won't just face us.

But this addon does also add a unfair advantage, something halfway in between wouldn't be terrible, but probably from ZOS so everyone can have it. We need counterplay for ganking, but a addon that kills it entirely is overboard. We got the two extremes here and someone needs to find a happy medium.

i wouldnt mind a new armor trait that reduces stealth damage delt and taken by 6%(gold) per piece, so gankers cant abuse it to save themselves from other gankers.

Stealth damage is not the only problem with gankers though, they do a fast CC on you so you can't do anything.
That armor would help though, I'd wear it in a heartbeat XD.

Or you could just slot Radiant Magelight for -50% stealth damage taken and use impen on those armor pieces to reduce it even further (as stealth damage is always critical damage).

Tbh, there are plenty of "counters" to the gankers, you'd just have to slot a few different skills.

If you want to see stuff that doesn't actually have counters, just play a medium armor character (ganker or not, doesn't matter) and get hit by Soul Assault, birds or any of the other billion undodgeable things. The only "counter" to those is to not play a medium armor character.

As someone mentioned already, we only have 5 skillslots, to take up one entirely for just one build is a lot to ask. Or you even said a few different skills, plus while in our menu switching skills we can get ganked too because we all know gankers like to go for people who are distracted.

Ragnaroek93

Feanor wrote: »

@Ragnaroek93

You play CP or noCP? In CP it might be different, yes - that's why I say if something gets adjusted it should be bastion. Of course, Shattering Blows is there to use too...

I'm playing in CP campaign, noCP is a complete mess in my opinion and dominated by procs. I don't think that I can kill a necro shield build in noCP as well tho.

DDuke

coop500 wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

coop500 wrote: »

dsalter wrote: »

coop500 wrote: »

This is a hard subject for me, because I hate ganking with a passion, I think it's cowardly as it has zero counterplay, no playstyle should have no counterplay. As someone here said, it's only fun for the player of the ganker, as for everyone else, we get killed for doing nothing wrong, merely just existing and becoming a target of some guy who won't just face us.

But this addon does also add a unfair advantage, something halfway in between wouldn't be terrible, but probably from ZOS so everyone can have it. We need counterplay for ganking, but a addon that kills it entirely is overboard. We got the two extremes here and someone needs to find a happy medium.

i wouldnt mind a new armor trait that reduces stealth damage delt and taken by 6%(gold) per piece, so gankers cant abuse it to save themselves from other gankers.

Stealth damage is not the only problem with gankers though, they do a fast CC on you so you can't do anything.
That armor would help though, I'd wear it in a heartbeat XD.

Or you could just slot Radiant Magelight for -50% stealth damage taken and use impen on those armor pieces to reduce it even further (as stealth damage is always critical damage).

Tbh, there are plenty of "counters" to the gankers, you'd just have to slot a few different skills.

If you want to see stuff that doesn't actually have counters, just play a medium armor character (ganker or not, doesn't matter) and get hit by Soul Assault, birds or any of the other billion undodgeable things. The only "counter" to those is to not play a medium armor character.

As someone mentioned already, we only have 5 skillslots, to take up one entirely for just one build is a lot to ask. Or you even said a few different skills, plus while in our menu switching skills we can get ganked too because we all know gankers like to go for people who are distracted.

So let me get this straight, you want to counter gankers, but you don't want to slot a skill (which you can also use for Major Empower & stealth detection) designed to counter them, or alternatively play with someone who has it slotted?

I don't think that's too much of a sacrifice tbh, or maybe those stealth gankers aren't as big of a problem as your rhetoric implies?

The damage is actually the exact same from stealth as it is normally these days, there's very little benefit whatsoever for engaging from it.

Feanor

I'd slot RML in a heartbeat if it didn't mean I'd have to remorph it every time I go into PvE. It's not only the cost assigned with it but the mere stupidity of assigning every morph again. It's totally inconvenient. That said, ofc if you don't run RML you take a choice, and the associated risks go with it.

cyx54tc

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_AntonioP Can we get some official statements on this matter?

AdicusDio

I love casting piercing mark on stragglers or small groups from stealth. Funny watching people panic, or throw up every buff they have and hold shield. Are you saying this add can detect that as well? i.e. out of range slightly so effect doesn't apply, but they'll get a warning I tried it?

Also, between potions and certain skills, it's easy to detect some stealth players IF you suspect a stealth player nearby. Does this add alert everyone? i.e. a guy on a wall with me is ready to get sniped, will it alert me as well? That's be a huge advantage if they are stocked up on invisibilty.

Knootewoot

Many addons tell you when to dodge, block or cleanse. Even before Miat's cheaton there where addons like combat cloud en even FTC which warn about incoming sniper, even from stealth.

It has been almost impossible to gank from stealth since the first UI addons came out and warned about incoming projectiles. Even if you cancel them before they fire. It's sad but it is here to stay.

Nebthet78

Here's the thing to consider though about the information being provided to you via the app.
As a PVE player, even I have noticed that mobs actually react to your attack, even from stealth, as soon as it releases and well before the hit lands. The medium armor npcs end up roll dodging a lot of these attacks that are made out of stealth. So, I don't think it is so much the app that is the issue, so much as it is HOW and WHEN the game calculates the attacks.
The same thing is happening with sneak, where even NPCs are detecting you a lot sooner than they should be without any active skill showing on their bar like mage light.

Grim13

It's straight up cheating. The fact that Zos haven't done anything to prevent it speaks volumes of their interest in maintaining the *cough* "integrity" of pvp.

Anethum

Judas Helviaryn wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

This addon represents everything that is wrong with the game.

Really? I thought it was the toxic community, inconsistent patch jobs, and inexorable dumbing down of game mechanics.

Guess that's just me.

Community becomes toxic always step by step. The more things we have in game, which makes adequate players leave, the more toxic it will be.
It's a result of some kind negative filtration which is the result of global eso politics and hope @ZOS_GinaBruno care about this

grannas211

"PC master race" ...