@Magenpie I will give you an example of how much connections are important for your housing works.
I belong to whole 0 (ZERO) housing guilds.
I have access to DDA's and @StabbityDoom 's discord channel and I am there because I like her very much. Sometimes I help people if they have issues with EHT.
I have ONE friend who tends to help me if I'm entirely broke and need to finish something rather sooner than later.
Zero guilds, one friend, my own effort.

Edit:
@Zypheran Personally, I'd rather farm 250 void anomalies on live than on pts but I understand that some don't care...

On the other hand, nobody stops anyone from hosting a pts housing contest. It's just a matter of getting things organised. I have an impression that people expect Jhart to do it for them. Why should he? C'mon, an empty niche. Use it, folks!

As I recall my early days in housing, the biggest issue was... not knowing the furniture. I don't mean the general shape. I mean the details, bottoms, forgotten textures, dingy dongles, and other whatnots which can be used to create something new.

Good housing does not have to be expensive. People can build amazing stuff with redguard pillows, planks, and daedric thrones, but I would rather have my full arsenal of collectibles, luxury, and achievement furnishings. Just to make things the way I imagined them...

Magenpie wrote: »

KMarble wrote: »

Magenpie wrote: »

I just think it would be good if players were given the tools for free somehow - just for the competition - so everyone has a fair chance of making something amazing. It would be more fun, more fair and tbh, more interesting. I mean the prizes are awesome. Would be great if the field was opened up to more people, including a better chance for the console players

My husband is an artist. I lost count how many times I've heard people say - to his face - that if only they had the base materials he uses, they'd be able to create the same things he does.

The base materials he uses? Are made by him. Both him and I taught anyone who asked how to do it. It isn't a secret, it isn't expensive, but it takes time.

And guess what? Even when we give those people the exact same mats he uses, they cannot create the same, or similar things. You know why? Because they lack the skills and the "gift". Not everyone is an artist, different people have different skills and are gifted in different areas.

If anything, supplying people in a contest with items will only showcase the gap between dilettantes and the people who actually have the skills and the gift to make something outstanding.

Magenpie wrote: »

The only reason I suggested the PTR/PTS was to provide a level playing field for everyone, where no one is at a disadvantage because of whats in their bank. And it was just a question/suggestion. If ZOS came up with a different way of doing it, I'd be happy with that.

The PTS is wiped every so often and not all furnishings are available there. This was mentioned before in this and other threads. What wasn't mentioned is the fact that during testing cycles at least, the PTS copies the NA and EU server on different weeks (every two weeks IIRC).

I'm on the NA server and when the PTS has a copy of NA, I have access to all of my characters - with everything I have on live, including furnishings and plans. When the PTS is mirroring the EU server I do not.

You might think your idea creates more inclusion and opens up contests to more people, but it does the opposite. People who don't have access to PTS, be it because they play on console or because their HD isn't big enough to have both live and PT servers, will be excluded.
People who only play in one server (NA or EU) will be in disadvantage depending on when the contest happens and which server the PTS is mirroring at that time.
Independent of what I mentioned above, people who've been playing longer will more likely have access to furnishings that newer players don't have.

As for ZOS supplying the furnishings...that's the most limiting thing I can think of. Ask @JHartEllis . He used to have a competition where he'd supply furnishings to players to create something. He hasn't done that in a long time and I remember him struggling to find people to participate in it.

I'm sort of speechless... 'dilettantes'? Really? So only the 'truly gifted' (extremely subjective btw) should be allowed to create 'beautiful' (also very subjective) things in a GAME? We aren't talking about hanging our works at The Guggenheim, darling.

I know the PTS/PTR gets wiped, so what? If it was free, and just for a competition, who cares? Sandcastles on the beach, right? But as I said, who knows what system ZOS could come up with?

[Post was edited]

One hundred percent this. Completely on your side there.

KMarble wrote: »

My husband is an artist. I lost count how many times I've heard people say - to his face - that if only they had the base materials he uses, they'd be able to create the same things he does.

The base materials he uses? Are made by him. Both him and I taught anyone who asked how to do it. It isn't a secret, it isn't expensive, but it takes time.

And guess what? Even when we give those people the exact same mats he uses, they cannot create the same, or similar things. You know why? Because they lack the skills and the "gift". Not everyone is an artist, different people have different skills and are gifted in different areas.

If anything, supplying people in a contest with items will only showcase the gap between dilettantes and the people who actually have the skills and the gift to make something outstanding.

[Snip]

It isn't just haughty and some misplaced elitism, it's just plain wrong. And do you know why? Because art is always 100 percent in the eye of the beholder, 100 percent subjective.
You can't go and say people's work is lesser art than your husband's, just because he might be "gifted" with whatever he does. Hell, probably won't like your husband's work, depending on what he does, and think for myself "what crap is this?". Everyone likes different things, and a great many things are considered art by either people or law. ( if you know Beuys' Fettecke, you know what I mean. If not, Google it...) Yes, putting butter on a chair and in the room's corner is considered art as well. I don't like it, I thankfully don't have to like it, because that's the wonderful thing about art: everyone looks differently at it. And the only true art in it is the fantasy, the imagination and the work someone put into it. That is the only thing you can perhaps put to measure, if at all. I still think you can't measure art against one another. I don't like Kandinsky or Schumacher or Beuys. I think most of their pieces are crap for Me. But for someone else they hold great worth.
Oh and about creating the exact same thing.... That isn't creative at all. It's good people make different stuff and don't all cater to the large majority. Individualism is great.

OH and about dilettante and this crap with gift and stuff... Yeah, there might be individuals who have a knack for lighting, capturing things others don't, catering to a larger group or more elitist or rich group of people. Might be a gift and useful, still doesn't make anyone a bigger or better artist than others. Might help with getting money or attention or even started, but still, art is subject to the sole opinion of the beholder. Some might even like some "dilettante" work here and there, while others like phallic symbols (at least looking close like those) on canvas declared as "doors" or something that looks like poop plastered on a canvas and hung up (both paintings by Schumacher) and consider it great art. To each their own. So calling anyone "gifted" when it comes to art is still a subjective as hell thing. As you can't measure art or gifts at art or anything else in that direction.

And I still think you can do an immense amount of different builds with everyone getting the same items. Because everyone looks at them differently and creates different things from it.

[Edited for bashing]

Zypheran wrote: »

For me personally, housing is over-priced and excessively grindy.

I don't grind. I play around with the items that I can afford. If I buy a spendy pattern (furnishing pattern) it's mostly because I like it and want/am willing to spend the money.

bayushi2005 wrote: »

I will give you an example of how much connections are important for your housing works.
I belong to whole 0 (ZERO) housing guilds.
I have access to DDA's and @StabbityDoom 's discord channel and I am there because I like her very much. Sometimes I help people if they have issues with EHT.
I have ONE friend who tends to help me if I'm entirely broke and need to finish something rather sooner than later.
Zero guilds, one friend, my own effort.

Well, full disclosure, I am NOT in any housing guilds, though I do have a bestie online who is in several (her quote) "crazy housing guilds" which she very much enjoys.

I don't really do much on discord, twitch and thought I do watch some of @StabbityDoom and @JHartEllis streams and videos, I rarely have the patience to watch them regularly or all the way through - I confess I often jump around a lot.

I do have my beloved who will send me duplicates of any plans his main crafter knows (he crafts on one character, I am MUCH less organized about that.

I tend to prefer less complex houses both for decorating and for touring/contests/watching videos, partly because I am quite slapdash about what I accumulate, and partly just personal preference. I often want to compare how someone "does a theme" or "deals with X room" or something ..... easy to compare if that makes any sense.

For example @JHartEllis "Glorious Golden Cows" contest had a very specific, distinct theme. Looking at the video of the tour it was so cool to see so many very very different takes on it. Or the "Solitude Home Goods" contest. Looking at what folks came up with - it broke my brain!

@HachikoChan (this is not working as a name - swear I cut and pasted it) did a tribute to My Neighbor Totoro that had me exclaiming so loud my hubby came in from the kitchen to find out what I was looking at.

That would be my preference as to type of contest - something that was inherently individualized. Inherently weird.

And seriously, if folks have doubts about being able to do amazing astonishing creative things with say "the basic goods from the Home Goods Furnisher in Rawl'ka" or maybe "only white building plans/blueprints/stuff you can buy from the local woodworker/clothier/etc then take another look at the "Solitude Home Goods" contest.

Anyway, my two Septims...

Zypheran wrote: »

@StabbityDoom I thought it important to clarify just in case there was any doubt, everything after "Thank you Stabby for your kind words" was a completely general statement to the community at large and not you specifically.

Speaking as one of the community at large, that's exactly what I got out of it.

I also love her enthusiasm, her honesty and her generosity of spirit.

Just sayin'

ValkyriesWolf wrote: »

[Snip]

It isn't just haughty and some misplaced elitism, it's just plain wrong. And do you know why? Because art is always 100 percent in the eye of the beholder, 100 percent subjective.
You can't go and say people's work is lesser art than your husband's, just because he might be "gifted" with whatever he does. Hell, probably won't like your husband's work, depending on what he does, and think for myself "what crap is this?". Everyone likes different things, and a great many things are considered art by either people or law. ( if you know Beuys' Fettecke, you know what I mean. If not, Google it...) Yes, putting butter on a chair and in the room's corner is considered art as well. I don't like it, I thankfully don't have to like it, because that's the wonderful thing about art: everyone looks differently at it. And the only true art in it is the fantasy, the imagination and the work someone put into it. That is the only thing you can perhaps put to measure, if at all. I still think you can't measure art against one another. I don't like Kandinsky or Schumacher or Beuys. I think most of their pieces are crap for Me. But for someone else they hold great worth.
Oh and about creating the exact same thing.... That isn't creative at all. It's good people make different stuff and don't all cater to the large majority. Individualism is great.

OH and about dilettante and this crap with gift and stuff... Yeah, there might be individuals who have a knack for lighting, capturing things others don't, catering to a larger group or more elitist or rich group of people. Might be a gift and useful, still doesn't make anyone a bigger or better artist than others. Might help with getting money or attention or even started, but still, art is subject to the sole opinion of the beholder. Some might even like some "dilettante" work here and there, while others like phallic symbols (at least looking close like those) on canvas declared as "doors" or something that looks like poop plastered on a canvas and hung up (both paintings by Schumacher) and consider it great art. To each their own. So calling anyone "gifted" when it comes to art is still a subjective as hell thing. As you can't measure art or gifts at art or anything else in that direction.

And I still think you can do an immense amount of different builds with everyone getting the same items. Because everyone looks at them differently and creates different things from it.

[Edited for bashing]

I'm a dilettante in many aspects of ESO. When it comes to housing, trials, PVP...even veteran dungeons. It is not a bad word.

Let me put this in other terms in hopes to make my statement clearer. When you (general) put emphasis on the furnishings used in a contest as a means to justify the reason(s) why certain people were chosen, you (again, general) deny those people their creativity and skills.

I'd appreciate if you, @ValkyriesWolf don't put words in my mouth. It's usually full with my feet in it already and there is no space left. (I highlighted a few things I never said, but you seem to have implied I did).

KMarble wrote: »

ValkyriesWolf wrote: »

[Snip]

It isn't just haughty and some misplaced elitism, it's just plain wrong. And do you know why? Because art is always 100 percent in the eye of the beholder, 100 percent subjective.
You can't go and say people's work is lesser art than your husband's, just because he might be "gifted" with whatever he does. Hell, probably won't like your husband's work, depending on what he does, and think for myself "what crap is this?". Everyone likes different things, and a great many things are considered art by either people or law. ( if you know Beuys' Fettecke, you know what I mean. If not, Google it...) Yes, putting butter on a chair and in the room's corner is considered art as well. I don't like it, I thankfully don't have to like it, because that's the wonderful thing about art: everyone looks differently at it. And the only true art in it is the fantasy, the imagination and the work someone put into it. That is the only thing you can perhaps put to measure, if at all. I still think you can't measure art against one another. I don't like Kandinsky or Schumacher or Beuys. I think most of their pieces are crap for Me. But for someone else they hold great worth.
Oh and about creating the exact same thing.... That isn't creative at all. It's good people make different stuff and don't all cater to the large majority. Individualism is great.

OH and about dilettante and this crap with gift and stuff... Yeah, there might be individuals who have a knack for lighting, capturing things others don't, catering to a larger group or more elitist or rich group of people. Might be a gift and useful, still doesn't make anyone a bigger or better artist than others. Might help with getting money or attention or even started, but still, art is subject to the sole opinion of the beholder. Some might even like some "dilettante" work here and there, while others like phallic symbols (at least looking close like those) on canvas declared as "doors" or something that looks like poop plastered on a canvas and hung up (both paintings by Schumacher) and consider it great art. To each their own. So calling anyone "gifted" when it comes to art is still a subjective as hell thing. As you can't measure art or gifts at art or anything else in that direction.

And I still think you can do an immense amount of different builds with everyone getting the same items. Because everyone looks at them differently and creates different things from it.

[Edited for bashing]

Let me put this in other terms in hopes to make my statement clearer. When you (general) put emphasis on the furnishings used in a contest as a means to justify the reason(s) why certain people were chosen, you (again, general) deny those people their creativity and skills.

You just took what people were asking for completely the wrong way, and twisted it.

Nobody was saying that a less creative person and a more creative person will build something equally creative given the same materials; people were saying that an equally creative person with more materials clearly has more chance to build something more creative than the equally creative person with only a fraction of those materials.

So no need for all that outrage and rudeness against amateur artists, because it was never about that. If everyone was building homes made out of matchsticks only, sure the creative people will stand out anyway. But if your oh-so-creative visionary husband can only build out of matchsticks, while other equally talented people have access to matchsticks AND stained glass AND crystals AND stone structures, the creative potential and impact of the latter is clearly going to be greater. That's what the whole 'money goes a long way' argument was about, and it's clearly true.

tl;dr: all these 'that's an attack on creativity, you couldn't do anything even if you had the money' comments are missing the point entirely, so can we please stop the fighting and snide comments, thanks.

Kittytravel wrote: »

I know this will likely be met an unpopular view; but there is something to be said about housing contests and the pursuit of the work people put into not just the build itself but the gathering of the items to create said build. You are correct in that anyone could likely put together 100 of the Font of Auri-el and make it look grand and beautiful but the question there is "Are they willing to do so?"

Well said and good point. Now I''m imagining a contest restricted to "100 of anything" ... be interesting to see 1-what was used, and 2-what was done.

Speaking of good points:

Kittytravel wrote: »

"Oh the winner used X house and that's not available on PTS right now.",
"The winner had luxury furniture that wasn't available."
"Well the winner had addons."

Yes, this is what a lot of the distress feels like to me. Instead of joining in the celebration of the various creative and interesting housing ideas, silly focus on who won - and who didn't.

To me, the whole point is that all the participants are having fun. Mostly I could not care a pin who "the winner" was, I just like to see all the pretty and creative things.

bluebird wrote: »

Nobody was saying that a less creative person and a more creative person will build something equally creative given the same materials; people were saying that an equally creative person with more materials clearly has more chance to build something more creative than the equally creative person with only a fraction of those materials.

I actually disagree with this (as a sweeping statement - obviously individual mileage will vary).

I think that specifically with respect to a contest - a limited (by time and by a combination of restrictions imposed by the contest, restrictions imposed by available time/items/money on the part of the contestant) event, any given "creative person" will flex the muscles of their creativity as much as they are able.

A "creative person with more materials" has not only more options, but that means less time to consider each option (given a finite amount of time to spend).

A "creative person with fewer materials" has .. more "time per option" and this may turn out to be an advantage.

And I will go on record here as stating in my opinionated opinion, there is no such thing as an "equally creative person" because we are all pretty darn different. Of course, if two separate folks independently come up with the exact same layout/design on one of these contests I will be totally astonished.

ValkyriesWolf wrote: »

Yeah, there might be individuals who have a knack for lighting, capturing things others don't, <snipped>. Might be a gift and useful, still doesn't make anyone a bigger or better artist than others. <snip> art is subject to the sole opinion of the beholder. <snip> As you can't measure art or gifts at art or anything else in that direction.

I disagree.

Art can be quite subjective, but there still exist both expert assessment of skill, and popular opinion and these can be measured and can be repeatable.

The Beatles
Laura Ingalls Wilder
Vincent Willem van Gogh
Georgia O'Keeffe
Frank Lloyd Wright
Maya Angelou

Very different artists who didn't all use the same medium, but were all undeniably talented. On that note, can you imagine what Salvador Dali would do with one of the ESO houses? Boggles the mind.

ValkyriesWolf wrote: »

And I still think you can do an immense amount of different builds with everyone getting the same items. Because everyone looks at them differently and creates different things from it.

Yes, absolutely! This was key to @JHartEllis recent contest using only "Solitude Home Goods" items. I'd love to see other creative restrictions on types of items used.

One of my personal projects is to try and make a small house/room to look like the interior of a geode. Still haven't got that one worked out, but it's fun to play with ideas.

Things that support the fun - I'm all for them!

@Magenpie , first off, welcome! I'm glad to know you and sorry to learn your first foray into the housing community was not as pleasant for you as it should have been.💝

Second, you have very valid points and concerns and you should feel like you can express those and ask questions without fear of hostility in return.

I have met some very lovely people in this community, but there are some who, I hate to say it, can be a little jealous and hurtful.. they make their own little cliques and support one another exclusively. If you're not part of their "world", you are easily disregarded. I've had my fair share of negative comments towards me and about my work and although it can be quite hurtful, I just keep moving along and doing the best I can with what I enjoy. In addition, we all share our ideas and build on them, which is fabulous.. however, at times, those ideas have been used and entered into contests by those who wanted to "borrow" your idea.. again, fabulous to share, but probably shouldn't be sold as a unique and creative concept by someone else especially in a contest you have also entered..

I love your suggestions for making future contests more accessible and welcoming to new players, or just new to housing players. I never build on pts (while I respect those who choose to do so, it's just my personal taste not to). Everything I have built, I have had to work for and pay for... and you are correct, it can get insanely expensive. It only gets more difficult if you need extra funding and never win. Once you've spent thousands, or hundreds of thousands on a design or build, it's satisfying to have that accomplishment. I really only decorate for myself and if others enjoy it, great! I have entered a few contests, but only from work I already had or intended on doing anyway. However, if you rely on a monetary return on your investment and do not win, the difficulties of keeping up with those who do win, become even greater. They invest into their builds and get winnings. They reinvest those winnings into future builds which can be seen as a little bit of an advantage. The rich get richer and the poor get poorer, so to speak. That's why it's really important for me to just build what I love and only decorate if it makes me happy. I never go into a contest expecting to win.

I wish you the best of luck and hope all of this has not deterred you from exploring housing further. All in all, it's a wonderful experience with a lot of wonderful and talented people. I also encourage you to watch @JHartEllis on Twitch and YouTube. He always has a wide variety of contests and his tours are always a good time full of inspiration and creativity!

newtinmpls wrote: »

Delphinia wrote: »

I really only decorate for myself and if others enjoy it, great! I have entered a few contests, but only from work I already had or intended on doing anyway.

I have only entered a very few contests, but I do like to hear about and maybe look at some of the entries.

I would say the most fun contests are the ones that I didn't think of/expect and then hearing the suggestion/inspiration I thought "hey, I could do .... THIS"

And again, it's not so much about winning as about hoping that my weird mind will come up with something that is entertaining for both myself and anyone who cares to take a look.

Agreed, exactly! I love seeing what other people can come up with and their take on the themes provided in contests.
If I enter, it usually starts out as something I'm already working on, or interested in working on, and a contest may just be the added motivation needed to get busy on it. I started out, when "homestead" was released, not knowing anyone else interested in housing and just enjoyed decorating for me and anyone else who might happen to want to visit. Entering and possibly winning a contest can be a nice "side effect", but it's definitely not what got me into housing or keeps me decorating... btw, would love to visit any of your homes anytime you'd have me.