Official Housing Competitions - Question about how they work - Building Costs

Magenpie

So, is the idea to make the houses on the PTR, for free, so you don't have to pay for all the stuff? Or do you have to pay for all the stuff?

seecodenotgames

A bit late there, the contests are already closed. The PTS was off limits as they explained several times.

All the winners were built on live and can be visited, as most of them are open.

Magenpie

Blimey, why so snarky?

I know I've missed out on the Greymoor competition, but I've just watched the Twitch stream from Friday, and it occured to me that the winning entries were very detailed and complex, which looked expensive. I was curious about how the competition worked, particularly as there might some more in the future. I looked around for information but couldn't find any, so I asked here.

Thought it was a fairly inoccuous query, to be honest, but obviously not.

seecodenotgames

Its just that lots of people were accusing the winners of using the PTS, even after it was proven they didn't.

Magenpie

I don't know anything about that.

I've only just started getting into housing and only found out there was an official competition last week. Clearly a drama-filled nightmare I should stay well away from.

StabbityDoom

Magenpie wrote: »

I don't know anything about that.

I've only just started getting into housing and only found out there was an official competition last week. Clearly a drama-filled nightmare I should stay well away from.

housing isn't usually this way, it's usually quite supportive, I assure you. Nah, housing people either eat the cost rl with crowns OR they buy the stuff with gold (if they can.) but at least some of the runner ups and even non placers I know got hundreds of antiquity items to create floors, walls, and more.

You are perfectly reasonable asking and I'm happy to answer any more questions. Seecode is right, there were some accusations flying around but I believe that's all resolved. No worries, you are welcome to our community.

CaffeinatedMayhem

StabbityDoom wrote: »

.

You are perfectly reasonable asking and I'm happy to answer any more questions. Seecode is right, there were some accusations flying around but I believe that's all resolved. No worries, you are welcome to our community.

Stabby is a great person to ask for questions. But that being said, the housing community is NOT inclusive or welcoming. Great designs, but some horrible people.

Magenpie

CaffeinatedMayhem wrote: »

StabbityDoom wrote: »

.

You are perfectly reasonable asking and I'm happy to answer any more questions. Seecode is right, there were some accusations flying around but I believe that's all resolved. No worries, you are welcome to our community.

Stabby is a great person to ask for questions. But that being said, the housing community is NOT inclusive or welcoming. Great designs, but some horrible people.

CaffeinatedMayhem

Magenpie wrote: »

CaffeinatedMayhem wrote: »

StabbityDoom wrote: »

.

You are perfectly reasonable asking and I'm happy to answer any more questions. Seecode is right, there were some accusations flying around but I believe that's all resolved. No worries, you are welcome to our community.

Stabby is a great person to ask for questions. But that being said, the housing community is NOT inclusive or welcoming. Great designs, but some horrible people.

Just putting the other perspective out there. I've met a few nice people in housing, but in general I've found the "community" rather insular. If your personal style isn't theflavor of the moment, you're ***. The "royalty" can do/say whatever they want to anyone. If you don't like it, or don't kiss the ass of whatever princess, you're guild kicked.

Have fun building, but stay away from "community." At least on PC/NA.

tim99

there is no "royalty"... if you see most of them playing the game outside of the houses you have to look twice to make sure its not a bad april's fool ^^

TheImperfect

Magenpie wrote: »

So, is the idea to make the houses on the PTR, for free, so you don't have to pay for all the stuff? Or do you have to pay for all the stuff?

Housing can get expensive in terms of gold (or crowns if you choose) but you can enter the one room competitions which are for like inn rooms that only have 30 items if you are just starting out and you can be selective with your choices and use bigger furnishings and good angles to make rooms look more filled.

JHartEllis

Looking at the winners, it looks like total costs for craftable furnishings, home goods, achievement furnishings, and luxury furnishings is ~500k-2.5m gold per build, which isn't crazy high, though there are certainly things ZOS could do to make this more accessible to more people. Other furnishings like antiquities can be earned, though they take some time to acquire.

StabbityDoom

Certainly there are other opinions and I know @CaffeinatedMayhem has legit causes for why she feels that way. I consider her a friend and know she's a good person. So if the community portion you find is toxic, step away from that portion and feel free to hang out with me, I will not be mean. Not if I can help it!

Magenpie

JHartEllis wrote: »

Looking at the winners, it looks like total costs for craftable furnishings, home goods, achievement furnishings, and luxury furnishings is ~500k-2.5m gold per build, which isn't crazy high, though there are certainly things ZOS could do to make this more accessible to more people. Other furnishings like antiquities can be earned, though they take some time to acquire.

I'm not keen on saying things are 'unfair' in mmos but this does seem pretty skewed to very rich/popular players, and certainly not very encouraging to people who've only just started playing the game. 500k-2.5m seems pretty steep to me, especially as you're not going to get that back!

I would much prefer to see a housing competition on the PTR or with a special fund of crowns specifically for the competition or something. I mean, I don't know how this would work, but it would be good for everyone to have a level playing field to start with, so it's all about creativity, rather than which houses or how much furnishing you can afford.

Def needs working on, in mvho.

bluebird

Magenpie wrote: »

JHartEllis wrote: »

Looking at the winners, it looks like total costs for craftable furnishings, home goods, achievement furnishings, and luxury furnishings is ~500k-2.5m gold per build, which isn't crazy high, though there are certainly things ZOS could do to make this more accessible to more people. Other furnishings like antiquities can be earned, though they take some time to acquire.

I'm not keen on saying things are 'unfair' in mmos but this does seem pretty skewed to very rich/popular players, and certainly not very encouraging to people who've only just started playing the game. 500k-2.5m seems pretty steep to me, especially as you're not going to get that back!

Well, housing in general is also skewed towards rich players, not just the contest.

Housing is the most significant gold sink in the game, costing more than even golding out your jewellery (we're talking potential millions for a single house). That's pretty steep, especially for players who are only starting out. Many of the biggest (and subjective, but many of the best) houses are Crowns only, so you need to spend irl money on it too. And many achievement and luxury furniture which have huge impact and are often more characterful than basic furniture often cost 10-50-100k a pop. I consider myself a semi-experienced player and housing enthusiast, but I regularly bankrupt myself with houses , even though I make 200-300k a week in a popular Mournhold trading guild.

So yeah, prices are often put a harsh restriction on people's creativity (in addition to the item slot limits ofc, lol).

Magenpie

The impression that housing is only accessible to the richest players is really off-putting to newer players or players like myself, who have been playing for a long time but haven't dabbled in the housing part of the game.

Surely it would be better to encourage and welcome those people by showing them the possibilities and fun to be had with the housing system, and doing that through an open/fair housing competition would be a great way of doing it?

bluebird

Magenpie wrote: »

Surely it would be better to encourage and welcome those people by showing them the possibilities and fun to be had with the housing system, and doing that through an open/fair housing competition would be a great way of doing it?

The issue with the PTS would be the consoles. People who play on console often do so because they have no access to ESO on a gaming PC, ergo no access to the PTS either. So that wouldn't be fair to console players.

Although even on Live servers, it's pretty skewed towards PC players. PC players have an easier time finding furniture because of guild trader AddOns, there are also more sellers of motifs, paintings, other furniture so even the market is larger by default, and I think it's also more common to find gold-Crown traders, if they so wish. So Console players already have a harder time with Housing expenses and furniture finding in general. Luckily, the ingame Precision Edit feature overcame the major difference in build quality so console players can also edit their houses very precisely now, but still, there are already significant advantages to PC players and using the PTS for contests would alienate console players entirely.

Magenpie

bluebird wrote: »

Magenpie wrote: »

Surely it would be better to encourage and welcome those people by showing them the possibilities and fun to be had with the housing system, and doing that through an open/fair housing competition would be a great way of doing it?

The issue with the PTS would be the consoles. People who play on console often do so because they have no access to ESO on a gaming PC, ergo no access to the PTS either. So that wouldn't be fair to console players.

Although even on Live servers, it's pretty skewed towards PC players. PC players have an easier time finding furniture because of guild trader AddOns, there are also more sellers of motifs, paintings, other furniture so even the market is larger by default, and I think it's also more common to find gold-Crown traders, if they so wish. So Console players already have a harder time with Housing expenses and furniture finding in general. Luckily, the ingame Precision Edit feature overcame the major difference in build quality so console players can also edit their houses very precisely now, but still, there are already significant advantages to PC players and using the PTS for contests would alienate console players entirely.

I mean, I can't help thinking this just proves my point, and a better way of hosting the housing competitions would be a really good idea.

bellatrixed

Magenpie wrote: »

The impression that housing is only accessible to the richest players is really off-putting to newer players or players like myself, who have been playing for a long time but haven't dabbled in the housing part of the game.

Surely it would be better to encourage and welcome those people by showing them the possibilities and fun to be had with the housing system, and doing that through an open/fair housing competition would be a great way of doing it?

Housing is not *only* accessible to the richest players. The largest, fanciest, most rare and expensive houses/furnishings are only accessible players who intentionally try to make gold in order to be able to decorate the way they want. Sort of like how the best raiders and PVPers are the ones who invest the most in the game.

It isn't hard to make gold in ESO--it just takes time. Saying housing should be accessible to everyone is sort of something that can never feasibly happen, because everyone has a different barometer of what is too much. I've met people who think 10k gold is "too expensive", for example.

You can get free inn rooms and a lot of nice houses are available for a few hundred thousand gold. You can also buy tons and tons of cheap decorations by browsing through the furnishing section of guild stores.

Housing is pretty much all I do in ESO. I hardly consider myself one of the richest players either--but I do spend time to make gold to be able to do what I want in the game, which is to buy furnishings and houses.

So in other words, new players can definitely jump into housing, if they prioritize gold making--which is something absolutely anyone can start doing.

bluebird

Magenpie wrote: »

bluebird wrote: »

Magenpie wrote: »

Surely it would be better to encourage and welcome those people by showing them the possibilities and fun to be had with the housing system, and doing that through an open/fair housing competition would be a great way of doing it?

The issue with the PTS would be the consoles. People who play on console often do so because they have no access to ESO on a gaming PC, ergo no access to the PTS either. So that wouldn't be fair to console players.

Although even on Live servers, it's pretty skewed towards PC players. PC players have an easier time finding furniture because of guild trader AddOns, there are also more sellers of motifs, paintings, other furniture so even the market is larger by default, and I think it's also more common to find gold-Crown traders, if they so wish. So Console players already have a harder time with Housing expenses and furniture finding in general. Luckily, the ingame Precision Edit feature overcame the major difference in build quality so console players can also edit their houses very precisely now, but still, there are already significant advantages to PC players and using the PTS for contests would alienate console players entirely.

I mean, I can't help thinking this just proves my point, and a better way of hosting the housing competitions would be a really good idea.

Well, yeah it would be nice to make things more 'fair' but it wouldn't work.

You can't use the PTS because of consoles. And your other idea, the 'special Crown fund' also wouldn't work, because ZOS won't just give away Crowns to everybody on Live servers - most people would spend it on other things not the contest entry, and many contestants would spend extra Crowns and extra gold on top of that to stand out so your 'rich player advantage' would still be an issue. And if ZOS, say gives away a free house to everybody (or forces everybody to use the same inn), and sends every single player a mail with a selection of Bound furniture they have to use, then were is the creative freedom? So, while the current system may not be ideal, it is the closest to fairness we can get I think.

Magenpie

@bellatrixed - I appreciate what you're saying and absolutely agree with almost all of it, but I'm really specifically talking about the housing competitions run by ZOS.

I just think it would be good if players were given the tools for free somehow - just for the competition - so everyone has a fair chance of making something amazing. It would be more fun, more fair and tbh, more interesting. I mean the prizes are awesome. Would be great if the field was opened up to more people, including a better chance for the console players

Magenpie

bluebird wrote: »

Well, yeah it would be nice to make things more 'fair' but it wouldn't work.

You can't use the PTS because of consoles. And your other idea, the 'special Crown fund' also wouldn't work, because ZOS won't just give away Crowns to everybody on Live servers - most people would spend it on other things not the contest entry, and many contestants would spend extra Crowns and extra gold on top of that to stand out so your 'rich player advantage' would still be an issue. And if ZOS, say gives away a free house to everybody (or forces everybody to use the same inn), and sends every single player a mail with a selection of Bound furniture they have to use, then were is the creative freedom? So, while the current system may not be ideal, it is the closest to fairness we can get I think.

Who knows what clever system ZOS could come up with to make it work?

StabbityDoom

I’m not going to say it’s impossible for them to come up with creative solutions. I will agree with you money is important for some housing work. But I don’t think popularity comes into it, I have to dispute that there. People like what they like and I think I’ve seen one Obviously biased contest in my three years. In response the gm adjusted how the contests worked. money, though, is why you see guilds like spicy, heavy into trading but also with a lot of housing people in it. I think most of us accept money is a necessity for building, and the best way to get it is trading guilds and doing your writs every day.

Secondly, @JHartEllis periodically holds “vendor item only” contests and limited item contests. Those affordable ones can give good prizes, just keep your eye out for his monthly post.

Both pc Eu and pc na have great guilds, plus there are cross-server discord groups, that run 30 item contests. these can also be affordable.

Magenpie

StabbityDoom wrote: »

I’m not going to say it’s impossible for them to come up with creative solutions. I will agree with you money is important for some housing work. But I don’t think popularity comes into it, I have to dispute that there. People like what they like and I think I’ve seen one Obviously biased contest in my three years. In response the gm adjusted how the contests worked. money, though, is why you see guilds like spicy, heavy into trading but also with a lot of housing people in it. I think most of us accept money is a necessity for building, and the best way to get it is trading guilds and doing your writs every day.

Secondly, @JHartEllis periodically holds “vendor item only” contests and limited item contests. Those affordable ones can give good prizes, just keep your eye out for his monthly post.

Both pc Eu and pc na have great guilds, plus there are cross-server discord groups, that run 30 item contests. these can also be affordable.

Hey there @StabbityDoom - thank you for replying. I didn't explain myself very well at all, really sorry about that. What I mean by 'popular' is players who are well known and in big guilds, who can get help from their in-game friends/guilds to help with furniture items, plans or even cash. Much easier for someone with lots of connections to get the items they want for a competition build, than a person who isn't part of the housing community, either because they are new to the game or because they don't particularly want to be. It ends up being less about creativity and imagination, and more about your wealth and who you know, which is a bit gross, imvho.

I do appreciate the housing community runs it's own competitions and of course, it's absolutely fine if these are aimed at the hardcore housing people, but I think it would be nice, and the right thing to do, if ZOS made sure the official housing competitions were open to as many players as possible. That make sense?

I think it's particularly rubbish that console players get the rough end of the stick in more ways than one in the game, and to be content with 'well that's just how things are' is a terrible way of viewing the situation. So much for inclusivity.

Zypheran

@magenpie I completely understand your point. Housing has been designed has a gold sink / cash cow right from the beginning and has gotten even more expensive over the years. Unfortunately though, you will find that this is preferred by a lot of people! Yes, believe it or not, a significant proportion of players, in my experience, believe housing should be expensive, end-game content. I've struggled to understand this attitude but can only conclude that for some, the satisfaction in having something comes from knowing that others don't have it!
I've noticed particularly in the last year, that housing is shifting from being a creative outlet to being a platform to exhibit status. While the majority still remain supportive and helpful, (at risk of backlash here...) there is a growing attitude of "housing must be this or that".
For me personally, housing is over-priced and excessively grindy. So I mostly do my housing on pts. Interestingly, you'd imagine that people would just see that as an "each to their own" decision but you would be amazed at the amount of times I've been taken to task for this approach. I was surprised and taken back tbh by the level of vocal resentment I encountered for engaging with housing in a way that allowed me build what I wanted without the cost/grind. I was told I'm not part of the community, I was told my builds were pointless and many other things which led me to gradually disengage with the housing community over the past year.
In truth, in the early days I did try to engage with housing. I built houses on live server and grinded the mats and plans. When i built my first 700 house, it took 6months, over 1m gold and 10k crowns. I thought, meh, why bother doing this again! 😄
I joined various housing guilds but realised that most of the competitions forbid the use of PTS and the majority won't feature or even visit a house that is made on PTS. So yes, you are right. Housing competitions are largely favoured toward wealthier players who have being playing for longer. But this, I believe, is because housing as a whole, is geared toward this.
There are exceptions and some guild leaders do a great job at varying their competition themes to make them accessible to all.
I believe that if we want to grow the housing community in a way that encourages new players and supports creativity over hierarchy, then we do need to see a more embracing approach in general. It would be good to see more competitions that allowed PTS entries or more competitions with themes that limit the items used in such a way as not to put newer players at a disadvantage. I think encouraging newer players to get into housing can only be a good thing.

Sorries

There are different kinds of contests. It is not uncommon for guilds to host beginner contests that restrict house size and exclude people that would rank in the regular competitions. Also a lot host screenshot contests so you don't need to make a full build. Jharts contest are also pretty affordable.

Anyone in my own guild just needs to send me the mats if they need the item crafted and many other guildies offer the same service. And most contests will be done within guilds so people share the same pool of friends and guildies. I would also recommend to keep in mind that just because someone ends up with an expensive build, it might be their only home and something they worked on for months.


I don't necessarily think gold is the most important, if you can get creative enough. I have won contests with builds made out of primarily crates, halloween wheat, another bedrolls, one just made out of trophies. Plenty of people repurpose stuff, I have some items that moved house like 5 times for different contests. Also don't underestimate that a lot of people might not like expensive builds that are poor in taste. I think one of the best skills you need to have is cobbling, whether that is making new furniture items by combining, architecture builds or self made sculptures.

Lots of people will also enter competitions without winning in mind, just for fun. What matters is whether you made something you enjoyed and people enjoy far more entries than the ones that will end up winning.

seecodenotgames

What a lot of people, including myself, do is they build on PTS as a "first draft" so they can screw up as much as they like and not waste expensive things that don't work.

Then when we are done we can use the EHT addon to import the build either in sections or in its entirety. For example, my most recent project was way too expensive to import in one go, so I imported it from PTS to live in four sections and had to wait a week between each for my gold levels and mats to replenish so I could move onto the next section.

newtinmpls

Magenpie wrote: »

So, is the idea to make the houses on the PTR, for free, so you don't have to pay for all the stuff? Or do you have to pay for all the stuff?

The idea of "not having to pay for the stuff"

In a way, that speaks to me about why I would prefer that housing contests not include PTS

-and this is my opinion only- how folks choose to run their contests is totally up to them!

Housing is ... to me ... a labor of love. Trying to figure out how to do something; or trying to work within the limits of what things are available, and how can you work with them - combine, or sink, or turn them upside down.

-Working to get a house that is "Just right" for a particular character
-Getting inspired by a particular housing contest theme (I still have my little one room 30 item "creepy garden" from a Garden theme contest).
-Seeing if a wild idea I have will work out in practice (still working on the treehouse thing)

The point isn't (to me) to see "what you could do on an unlimited budget"; the point (to me) is to see what can you be inspired enough, creative enough or inventive enough to do with "what you have" (or can get). Or what you can do with the things you have accumulated.

A reflection of you, what you have collected, how you think, all that sort of thing.

Magenpie

newtinmpls wrote: »

Magenpie wrote: »

So, is the idea to make the houses on the PTR, for free, so you don't have to pay for all the stuff? Or do you have to pay for all the stuff?

The idea of "not having to pay for the stuff"

In a way, that speaks to me about why I would prefer that housing contests not include PTS

-and this is my opinion only- how folks choose to run their contests is totally up to them!

Housing is ... to me ... a labor of love. Trying to figure out how to do something; or trying to work within the limits of what things are available, and how can you work with them - combine, or sink, or turn them upside down.

-Working to get a house that is "Just right" for a particular character
-Getting inspired by a particular housing contest theme (I still have my little one room 30 item "creepy garden" from a Garden theme contest).
-Seeing if a wild idea I have will work out in practice (still working on the treehouse thing)

The point isn't (to me) to see "what you could do on an unlimited budget"; the point (to me) is to see what can you be inspired enough, creative enough or inventive enough to do with "what you have" (or can get). Or what you can do with the things you have accumulated.

A reflection of you, what you have collected, how you think, all that sort of thing.

I love your idea and your sentiment, and that's exactly my point. It should be about the creativity, the way you interpret the brief of the competition, your imagination and your love of the game and how you express that through the build. But if you are new, or poor, or don't want to be deeply involved in a housing guild (guilds take up time and energy after all and some people aren't into that) you are at a massive disadvantage.

I'm by no means saying the PTR/PTS is where the comps should be held because it means players have access to everything, in fact, I prefer it when a competition (or whatever) makes restrictions on what people can use or do - so limited number of items, or only wood, or only in a certain sized area. Those kinds of restrictions make people think, and brings our their most imaginative side.

The only reason I suggested the PTR/PTS was to provide a level playing field for everyone, where no one is at a disadvantage because of whats in their bank. And it was just a question/suggestion. If ZOS came up with a different way of doing it, I'd be happy with that.

StabbityDoom

Please keep in mind that PTS destroys everything you have there periodically, so unless the person uses EHT (which many do not, I'd argue most do not) they will lose anything they have - and usually without warning of when it will happen. Also I've seen @Zypheran 's stuff and they are mad talented, PTS or not, who cares? I just hope they save backups of their work so they don't lose it.

If I ran the contests I might go to PTS too, if people wanted, but I don't want to encourage competition as much as I want to encourage enjoyment of art and support. So I don't do them. I know I could see some people being upset they invested gold when others didn't. I suggested to Jhart once we do PTS only for a competition and his concern was the random wipes, which I can hardly blame him for.

KMarble

Magenpie wrote: »

I just think it would be good if players were given the tools for free somehow - just for the competition - so everyone has a fair chance of making something amazing. It would be more fun, more fair and tbh, more interesting. I mean the prizes are awesome. Would be great if the field was opened up to more people, including a better chance for the console players

My husband is an artist. I lost count how many times I've heard people say - to his face - that if only they had the base materials he uses, they'd be able to create the same things he does.

The base materials he uses? Are made by him. Both him and I taught anyone who asked how to do it. It isn't a secret, it isn't expensive, but it takes time.

And guess what? Even when we give those people the exact same mats he uses, they cannot create the same, or similar things. You know why? Because they lack the skills and the "gift". Not everyone is an artist, different people have different skills and are gifted in different areas.

If anything, supplying people in a contest with items will only showcase the gap between dilettantes and the people who actually have the skills and the gift to make something outstanding.

Magenpie wrote: »

The only reason I suggested the PTR/PTS was to provide a level playing field for everyone, where no one is at a disadvantage because of whats in their bank. And it was just a question/suggestion. If ZOS came up with a different way of doing it, I'd be happy with that.

The PTS is wiped every so often and not all furnishings are available there. This was mentioned before in this and other threads. What wasn't mentioned is the fact that during testing cycles at least, the PTS copies the NA and EU server on different weeks (every two weeks IIRC).

I'm on the NA server and when the PTS has a copy of NA, I have access to all of my characters - with everything I have on live, including furnishings and plans. When the PTS is mirroring the EU server I do not.

You might think your idea creates more inclusion and opens up contests to more people, but it does the opposite. People who don't have access to PTS, be it because they play on console or because their HD isn't big enough to have both live and PT servers, will be excluded.
People who only play in one server (NA or EU) will be in disadvantage depending on when the contest happens and which server the PTS is mirroring at that time.
Independent of what I mentioned above, people who've been playing longer will more likely have access to furnishings that newer players don't have.

As for ZOS supplying the furnishings...that's the most limiting thing I can think of. Ask @JHartEllis . He used to have a competition where he'd supply furnishings to players to create something. He hasn't done that in a long time and I remember him struggling to find people to participate in it.