alanmatillab16_ESO wrote: »

wedgebert wrote: »

Was just talking about video games with a coworker. He mentioned his favorite game of all time was Skyrim and was only kinda aware ESO existed.

I mentioned the Bosmer changes and his immediate response was, to paraphrase, "But that's what they're known for!"

Was just talking about video games with a coworker. He mentioned his favourite game of all time was Skyrim and was only kinda aware ESO existed.

I mentioned the Bosmer changes and his immediate response was, to paraphrase, "Can they still sneak?" and after being told "yes" the answer was "So what is the fuss about?"

• We want more diverse race choices for characters that are focused on justice interactions. Having Khajiit be the only one with a sneaking advantage is very limiting.
• Stealth detect has no benefits in PvE, due to the severe lack of detectable enemies and/or objects
  making this an exclusively PvP oriented passive component, which is counter to the original goals (goal number 2 - universal applicability) of the racial balance change. Since stealth detection is only beneficial in PvP environments it also does not line up with the original reasoning given behind the removal of stealth - that only a player that stealths (in this case, detects other players) can benefit from this (part of the) passive. As of now, PvE players only benefit from 10% speed after dodging at the cost of three skill points and ~3.6k stamina cost, as the penetration will either be wasted due to the cap or result in a DPS loss from the lack of uptime. Returning the reduced sneak radius or a similar passive component that improves sneaking helps players across the board as everyone can choose to take advantage of that in the Overworld as well as Dungeons, Delves and PvP by making it easier to sneak past enemies or sneaking into an advantageous position to strike.
  Furthermore the additional stealth detect in PvP is not in line with existing forms of detection as it reveals cloaked enemies without an indicator. It also gives away the existence of a hidden Bosmer to other sneaking enemies as it also increases the "danger" radius with the half opened eye indicator in which enemies can tell they are about to be revealed before the sneaking Bosmer is even made aware of the existence of their sneaking enemy. These intransparent and counterintuitive issues would need to be addressed and resolved if the passive was kept in its current form, which is why we would be willing to give up this component of the passive to regain improved sneaking.
• Removing stealthiness from Bosmer breaks with tradition as every game starting with Arena described Bosmer as great sneak thieves.
  Elder Scrolls 1 Arena
  
  Elder Scrolls 2 Daggerfall
  
  Elder Scrolls 3 Morrowind
  
  Elder Scrolls 4 Oblivion
  
  Elder Scrolls 5 Skyrim
  
  Elder Scrolls Online
  
• Stealth has always been an integral part of Bosmer culture and lore.
  • The Rite of Theft is a war custom of the tribal Woodelfs in which a tribe raids another to steal the valuable possessions or people for ransom. The larger the stolen object, the more prestige it has. While deaths do occur, these raids are generally not deadly due to the stealthy nature of this war custom. "Thanks to centuries of this practice, the tribal Bosmer have become legendary for their stealth" - Mistral Aurelian Teriscor
  • The Bosmer's most famous poem is called "The One Thousand Benefits of Hiding". Although we have never seen this poem, it has been mentioned several times, even within the books of ESO. Sources for this are the "Pocket Guide to the Empire, First Edition: Aldmeri Dominion", "War Customs of the Tribal Bosmer" (ESO) as well as "A Dance in Fire, Book 1". All these sources are quoting it to be the most famous poem and two of them also mention the forest-coupling ability.
  • Bosmer are known to possess an ability called "forest-coupling" that allows them to camouflage themselves in proximity to plantlife. This ability, in conjunction with being prone to desertion, is described as the reason why the Colovian armies stopped using the superior Bosmer archers in their legions after a failed experiment in the War of Rihad. It is said that "they would sometimes walk into the shade of a single tree and vanish. Their forest-coupling skills are remarkable." While this can be interpreted as exaggeration, their superior stealth still factored into them not being commonly recruited into archer regiments for the Empire. It should be considered that the Imperial Legion is one of the most tactically advanced and honed military forces in Tamriel, making them a very reliable source for information of military importance such as stealth capabilities of potential enemies or allies.

  Sources:
  

  BlueViolet wrote: »

  
  War Customs of the Tribal Bosmer
  
  Valenwood: A Study
  

  
  Pocket Guide to the Empire, 1st Edition: Aldmeri Dominion
• The emotional argument of habitute and attachement - while not a strong argument on its own when talking about delicate matters such as balance, in conjunction with the reasons given above, it adds gravity to the situation and highlights the importance of this issue.
  We, the players, are not a homogenous mass and nobody can speak for the entire playerbase without needing to differentiate. Thus this may not apply for every player individually.
  Prior to the Wrathstone release, Bosmer was not considered a "good race" in terms of combat power by most. Players who previously chose Bosmer because of stamina sustain, will continue to do so now. Players who chose Bosmer because of their looks will continue to do so now. Players who chose Bosmer for roleplaying and lore will continue to do so now. Players who previously chose Bosmer because of their improved sneaking have now either switched to Khajiit or are too attached to the characters they spent time and effort to flesh out and develop to switch off now. These players won't use their race change tokens, because changing the race, means changing everything about the character that they love. Yet, their characters lost their reason for being. When there are plenty of reasons (as seen above) for Bosmer to retain their stealthiness, then it will be difficult for these players to move on from their characters. Most of us, who still think of this as an important issue, chose the Bosmer race with the substantiated expectation that choosing Bosmer would always mean sneaking superiorly to most races. If it was merely an attachment to the stealth gameplay and not the race, then these players would have adapted and moved on already, however they would have never created a Bosmer specifically, if wanting to excel at stealth gameplay played no roll in their decision. The Wrathstone update betrayed this expectations and is making others fear that "they may be next". Instilling this kind of fear into players will ultimately drive people away and hurt the diversity of the playerbase if not harm the total numbers noticably.

Ratzkifal wrote: »

@max_only @BlueRaven I finished the first comprehensive collection of arguments. This is what you can put on the front page/take and hand to ZOS and class reps and whoever you want to talk to.

IF ANYONE STILL HAS ARGUMENTS THAT ARE NOT INCLUDED IN THE COLLECTION, WRITE THEM DOWN FOR DISCUSSION!