Wood Elf/ Bosmer losing stealth passive, An open letter.

anadandy

HankTwo wrote: »

If you ask me, Bosmer should get something like 'reduce the speed penalty of sneak by 25/50/75%'. I don't know if it would please the crowd here, but it would be something different from Khajiit while still being useful for stealth gameplay.

That was definitely one of the suggestions that came up in the PTS discussions (ignored). Basically anything stealth related that would have had utility in both game modes would be better than the crap we got. But here we are, months later, still being ignored, still not having the fact that Stealth Detection is utterly useless in PVE acknowledged and, speaking only for myself, now I'm just over it - gimme my stealth radius back.

zaria

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Ogou wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

Korlian wrote: »

Pretty much all the fun is gone for me since I can't play the way I want to play anymore. All attempts to play since this change has lead to frustration and quitting the game everytime I try logging in. My fun has turned to frustration, it's sad. I wish I could refund my subscription that I got just before this change happen, not having fun, at all... so a total waste of money.

Has anyone even found a way to play stealth close to before this change? Is it even possible? (I'm not racechanging to Khajiit, ever.)

It was a planned decision on their part to force people to convert to Khajiit to break down resistance to playing the race, in order to sell more copies of the upcoming Khajiit chapter. Unfortunately, it seems to be backfiring on them. Can't buy a new DLC if you aren't playing.

They didn't have to that for Morrowind, they didn't have to do that for Summerset, why would they be doing that now for Elsweyr when according to ZOS themselves it has been the most requested region for a while now?

Yeah I'm also not buying that theory. There is no incentive for ZOS to make people switch to a specific race when they release a new chapter. They make exactly as much money if any unpopular race suddenly becomes BiS. Besides, from the way people are always telling us "Bosmer got buffed though", stealth hardly matters to the people that switch races.

This, last thing they did to Khajiit was nerfing them pretty hard by switching to crit damage.
Who was an hard nerf outside of ganking.
Add the standard 258 damage and 2K resources. most got.
You do not want PvP buffs, Bosmer, Khajiit and Argonians agree.

Ratzkifal

HankTwo wrote: »

anadandy wrote: »

HankTwo wrote: »

anadandy wrote: »

HankTwo wrote: »

PvE stealth gameplay in this game is completely uncompetitive. Thats why as long as you can accomplish it with a reasonable difficulty its fine balancing wise (and imo stealth is very easy compared to other content in this game).

Endgame PvE (trial leaderboards) and PvP on the other hand is competitive. Thats why balancing classes and races is very important. If stealth gameplay would be an important competitive part of the game, then the racial stealth passive of Kahjiit (and old Bosmer) would be considered OP and nerfed.

Emphasis mine.

Ok, then please explain how removing the stealth radius from only the Bosmer balanced anything and how returning it would unbalance anything in the competitive game. If it is completely noncompetitive and unimportant - why remove it?

That is just one of the questions we have been waiting to have answered. There was no good reason for removing the Bosmer stealth radius and the one that was given "stealth isn't a universal mechanic" was contradictory bunk - because they replaced it with something even less universal.

As I wrote in an earlier post my impression is that ZOS wanted to give each race unique flavor passives.

Then, imo, they failed miserably by taking a flavor passive that Bosmer have had for 20+ years and tossing it for the sake of "uniqueness" - as if Bosmer and Khajiit were not unique enough already.

It seems to me the uniqueness problem was really only that the passive for both races was called "Stealthy" and ZOS just tossed a dart at the board and Bosmer came out the loser. The rename, plus the other changes were plenty to make the races unique without gutting the core racial identity of Bosmer.

I wish I had your faith in ZOS' reasoning, I truly do - but the whole thing was low effort nonsense and months of feedback pointing that out were summarily ignored.

If you ask me, Bosmer should get something like 'reduce the speed penalty of sneak by 25/50/75%'. I don't know if it would please the crowd here, but it would be something different from Khajiit while still being useful for stealth gameplay.

Edit: or maybe a flat movement speed bonus while in sneak, so it could stack with the night's silence set or the vampire passive.

It would certainly please me, although sneaking faster than walking would be a bit silly and that Khajiit are generally more acrobatic than Bosmer, but at least it would acknowledge that stealth is an important part of Bosmer identity.

DenMoria

There's "Stealth" in ESO?

Who knew?

HankTwo

wedgebert wrote: »

HankTwo wrote: »

The reason why I posted in this thread were misconceptions like this: 'stealth gameplay as a bosmer is destroyed', or 'bosmer are now tied for worst stealth race in the game'. They are simply untrue, so I felt like debunking them.

You didn't debunk anything though. You literally cannot play a Bosmer thief as anything other than average now. In PvE, both Khajiit and Imperial have advantages to stealth gameplay while Bosmer do not. This cannot be overcome by putting on sets or changing playstyles because everyone else put those same sets on (rendering Bosmer average still) and changing playstyle is the exact thing many of us are complaining about.

Bosmer racial identity is that of a stealthy thief. Go check the lore. It's what other races think of when they think Bosmer and it's how the Bosmer think of themselves. We literally cannot play Bosmer as Bosmer anymore than can Nord can play the best magicka user in of Tamriel.

As to being the worst stealth race, see my post right before yours. In PvP, Bosmer are literally the worst at stealth.

Look man, base sneak cost is 133 stamina per 0.5 seconds. If you run 5 medium armor pieces with legerdemain leveled and 30% additional reduction from CP you will end up with a sneak cost of 133*0.65*0.6*0.7=36.309 at max. According to uesp the legerdemain and medium armor passives get added to each other before multiplying, so that would lead to a much lower cost of 23.275. However, since I can't confirm that right now and for the sake of the argument lets use the higher number. With the Imperial passive you would end up with a sneak cost of 36.309*0.97=35.21973.

So, the Bosmer would have a sneak cost of 36 stamina per 0.5 second and the imperial would have a sneak cost of 35. Now, lets look at the Bosmer stam recovery of 258. You would get multiple percentage boosts to this passive, but again and for the sake of the argument, lets ingore this. For the Bosmer player to be able to sneak longer than the Imperial he would only have to stop once in 129 seconds, or a bit longer than 2 minutes. In your usual sneaky PvE you would most definitely stop more often than that, to grab loot, open treasures, pickpocket or use the blade of woe.

In case of PvP its a bit more complicated, but apart from Nightblades sneaky gameplay doesnt really work anyway, and their stealth capabilities are entirely based on cloak.

Cundu_Ertur

anadandy wrote: »

HankTwo wrote: »

If you ask me, Bosmer should get something like 'reduce the speed penalty of sneak by 25/50/75%'. I don't know if it would please the crowd here, but it would be something different from Khajiit while still being useful for stealth gameplay.

That was definitely one of the suggestions that came up in the PTS discussions (ignored). Basically anything stealth related that would have had utility in both game modes would be better than the crap we got. But here we are, months later, still being ignored, still not having the fact that Stealth Detection is utterly useless in PVE acknowledged and, speaking only for myself, now I'm just over it - gimme my stealth radius back.

Nope, speaking for me, too. Stealth is the only stealth that matters.

And I've already provided a proposal how it could be done without replicating the mechanic that Khajiit have. The Khajiit get a stealth bonus like from a set, give Bosmer a stealth bonus like the medium armor line at 15/30/40% to replace the counter-productive detection nerf. The rest of the passive could even stay the same, whatever.

Blinkin8r

I wanted to get in some playtime on my Bosmer Stamblade before commenting here. This has been my main toon for years and I was definitely nervous when I saw they were changing their passives.
Pre Wrathstone: My Bosmer Stamblade cleared all Craglorn HM's, VAS, VMOL, VHOF, and achieved Flawless Conqueror, and was a solid player in Cyrodiil.
Since Wrathstone: I've done all of those things and I'm still loving it in Cyrodiil. The extra penetration and speed after roll dodge is pretty niche but I'm loving it. For end game content at least, Bosmer is in a better place than it was before.

Now if you're on a Bosmer that isn't a nightblade, you may have slightly more difficulty than before doing DB sacraments, thieves guild heists, and pickpocketing maybe. But if you've trying those on any race on a non nightblade I'd recommend Invis, Speed pots. They're in the game, use them.

The only other reason I see people complaining about this passive change is lore. In other games, Bosmer are sneaky. This isn't other games. Zos runs it, they write the lore, they decide how different races will perform and if you don't like it and want to play a game where Bosmer get stealth passives, go play that game.

Overall I think Bosmer benefited greatly from this change and am very happy with where it is.

wedgebert

That's actually the first time anyone has given me the stamina cost for stealth. I've googling it but I guess I never found the right search terms.

You're missing a bit of the point here though. No one is arguing that Imperials are masters of sneaking around. The point is that they have an advantage to stealth while Bosmer do not.

In ESO Lore, Bosmer, not Imperials, not Khajiit, not anybody else, are the (player) race known for having extraordinary stealth abilities. If any race was going to have an advantage at stealth, it would be Bosmer. Prior to Wrathstone, Bosmer and Khajiit shared the same stealthy traits and I don't remember seeing a single person complain that they felt too much like the other race.

Now the Bosmer Hunter's Eye is a mishmash of nonsensical abilities that are not only bad in and of themselves, they just don't work for Bosmer. We're supposed to be a race of stealth sneak thieves with an affinity for bows. Instead we're supposed to be rolling around the battlefield spotting hidden players. I guess that explains the reduced fall damage, a race that lives atop giant migratory trees and decides to roll everywhere is going to fall a lot.

If Dunmer and Nords swapped their fire/cold resistances, people wouldn't say "well, just equip X to fix it and you'll be fine", they'd wonder why such a lore unfriendly change was made.

It doesn't matter if we lost 10% or 0.01% in terms of abilities. The loss doesn't make sense and runs counter to 25 years of established world building.

A_Silverius

Blinkin8r wrote: »

I wanted to get in some playtime on my Bosmer Stamblade before commenting here. This has been my main toon for years and I was definitely nervous when I saw they were changing their passives.
Pre Wrathstone: My Bosmer Stamblade cleared all Craglorn HM's, VAS, VMOL, VHOF, and achieved Flawless Conqueror, and was a solid player in Cyrodiil.
Since Wrathstone: I've done all of those things and I'm still loving it in Cyrodiil. The extra penetration and speed after roll dodge is pretty niche but I'm loving it. For end game content at least, Bosmer is in a better place than it was before.

Now if you're on a Bosmer that isn't a nightblade, you may have slightly more difficulty than before doing DB sacraments, thieves guild heists, and pickpocketing maybe. But if you've trying those on any race on a non nightblade I'd recommend Invis, Speed pots. They're in the game, use them.

The only other reason I see people complaining about this passive change is lore. In other games, Bosmer are sneaky. This isn't other games. Zos runs it, they write the lore, they decide how different races will perform and if you don't like it and want to play a game where Bosmer get stealth passives, go play that game.

Overall I think Bosmer benefited greatly from this change and am very happy with where it is.

I love how you didn't mention stealth detection anywhere:)

Cundu_Ertur

A_Silverius wrote: »

Blinkin8r wrote: »

I wanted to get in some playtime on my Bosmer Stamblade before commenting here. This has been my main toon for years and I was definitely nervous when I saw they were changing their passives.
Pre Wrathstone: My Bosmer Stamblade cleared all Craglorn HM's, VAS, VMOL, VHOF, and achieved Flawless Conqueror, and was a solid player in Cyrodiil.
Since Wrathstone: I've done all of those things and I'm still loving it in Cyrodiil. The extra penetration and speed after roll dodge is pretty niche but I'm loving it. For end game content at least, Bosmer is in a better place than it was before.

Now if you're on a Bosmer that isn't a nightblade, you may have slightly more difficulty than before doing DB sacraments, thieves guild heists, and pickpocketing maybe. But if you've trying those on any race on a non nightblade I'd recommend Invis, Speed pots. They're in the game, use them.

The only other reason I see people complaining about this passive change is lore. In other games, Bosmer are sneaky. This isn't other games. Zos runs it, they write the lore, they decide how different races will perform and if you don't like it and want to play a game where Bosmer get stealth passives, go play that game.

Overall I think Bosmer benefited greatly from this change and am very happy with where it is.

I love how you didn't mention stealth detection anywhere:)

I think even the people who like the changes as a whole have to admit the detection is crap. And you know, I like the other two passives (though I understand and support the Argonians who want their poison resistance back). I've never denied that they made things better for Bosmer. However, this does not change the undeniable fact that the third passive is very weak in its second part (the roll dodge shenanigans, @wedgebert has deconstructed that nicely) and utterly useless in its first part (the detection nerf garbage).

Blinkin8r

A_Silverius wrote: »

Blinkin8r wrote: »

I wanted to get in some playtime on my Bosmer Stamblade before commenting here. This has been my main toon for years and I was definitely nervous when I saw they were changing their passives.
Pre Wrathstone: My Bosmer Stamblade cleared all Craglorn HM's, VAS, VMOL, VHOF, and achieved Flawless Conqueror, and was a solid player in Cyrodiil.
Since Wrathstone: I've done all of those things and I'm still loving it in Cyrodiil. The extra penetration and speed after roll dodge is pretty niche but I'm loving it. For end game content at least, Bosmer is in a better place than it was before.

Now if you're on a Bosmer that isn't a nightblade, you may have slightly more difficulty than before doing DB sacraments, thieves guild heists, and pickpocketing maybe. But if you've trying those on any race on a non nightblade I'd recommend Invis, Speed pots. They're in the game, use them.

The only other reason I see people complaining about this passive change is lore. In other games, Bosmer are sneaky. This isn't other games. Zos runs it, they write the lore, they decide how different races will perform and if you don't like it and want to play a game where Bosmer get stealth passives, go play that game.

Overall I think Bosmer benefited greatly from this change and am very happy with where it is.

I love how you didn't mention stealth detection anywhere:)

The stealth detection passive is as worthless in any end game content as the argonian super swimmers and the Khajiit's pickpocket chance. Imo passives like these are simply there to add flavor to that race. Why Zos decided to change this one; don't know, don't care as it hasn't changed a single aspect of the game as far as I'm concerned.

Korlian

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Korlian wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Korlian wrote: »

Has anyone even found a way to play stealth close to before this change? Is it even possible? (I'm not racechanging to Khajiit, ever.)

I did the grind, grind, grind for night mother's embrace gear in Deshaan and kept my Night Silence gear for my two stamina Bosmer, and got Night Terror jewelry from Stonefalls with Shadow Dancer gear from Greenshade and 4 bits of Magnus' Gift for my goofy hybrid. That gets them all about 2/3 of what they would have before.

And what did you have to sacrifice? Are you still able to i.e. play solo with bow/dagger? Or are you squishy now? Powerless? Or close to the same as with the gear you had with the sneak racial we used to have?

Quite simple, if you wear that kind of gear, people won't let you go into raids and vet dungeons are much harder. It's convenience of having that racial bonus that allows you to not wear stealth sets and still be effective that I like. Can't speak for others obviously, but if you want to go for maximum effiency, it's still a hefty nerf.

I solo PvE and it sounds like the nerf will make it difficult to survive. Man... I hope ZOS reverts this change, I want to play again, my way...

max_only

HankTwo wrote: »

Easy mode PvE sneak build that works on any class/race and doesn't require vampire:

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=131042

5 pieces night mother's embrace armor, 5 pieces night's silence on bow bar, 4 pieces night terror on dw bar, swift jewelry and steed mundus for extra speed.

Very small detection radius on dw bar and no sneak speed penalty on bow bar. Good movement speed in general and sneak cost ist basically non existent. People who claim stealthy playstyle is destroyed because of one passive have no clue how to create a build it seems.

Orly? I had no idea! Thanks mate, I was blind but now I see! ...😒

HankTwo wrote: »

tyggerbob wrote: »

HankTwo wrote: »

Easy mode PvE sneak build that works on any class/race and doesn't require vampire:

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=131042

5 pieces night mother's embrace armor, 5 pieces night's silence on bow bar, 4 pieces night terror on dw bar, swift jewelry and steed mundus for extra speed.

Very small detection radius on dw bar and no sneak speed penalty on bow bar. Good movement speed in general and sneak cost ist basically non existent. People who claim stealthy playstyle is destroyed because of one passive have no clue how to create a build it seems.

I wouldn't go so far as to say destroyed. And yes I have that same build.. but when you combined it with the passive, Bosmers were nearly invisible

So what, now its just easy mode instead of super easy mode with such a build? I'm not even sure why people want to be almost invisible, where is the challenge in that? I completed both dark brotherhood and thieves guild on a heavy armor non-vampire nord (including heist and sacrament achievements). At least I had to play somewhat careful doing it this way.

I understand that some players dislike this change, but they should stick to the facts. Stealth gameplay is manageable on any race and I don't see that ever changing in the future. Claiming otherwise is just dishonest.

I have been sticking to the facts. No one is claiming that stealing and murder it’s unmanageable outside of Khajiit/Bosmer.

max_only

Blinkin8r wrote: »

The only other reason I see people complaining about this passive change is lore. In other games, Bosmer are sneaky. This isn't other games. Zos runs it, they write the lore, they decide how different races will perform and if you don't like it and want to play a game where Bosmer get stealth passives, go play that game.

If a Star Trek game took intellect away from Vulcans after 5 years (and 5 previous games worth of history), Trekkies would be rightfully upset. Even if you made your Vulcan to be a Pon Farr Gladiator and not a scientist, it doesn’t negate that the whole story/fantasy universe has had a defining trait for that race for 25 years.

Blinkin8r wrote: »

A_Silverius wrote: »

Blinkin8r wrote: »

I wanted to get in some playtime on my Bosmer Stamblade before commenting here. This has been my main toon for years and I was definitely nervous when I saw they were changing their passives.
Pre Wrathstone: My Bosmer Stamblade cleared all Craglorn HM's, VAS, VMOL, VHOF, and achieved Flawless Conqueror, and was a solid player in Cyrodiil.
Since Wrathstone: I've done all of those things and I'm still loving it in Cyrodiil. The extra penetration and speed after roll dodge is pretty niche but I'm loving it. For end game content at least, Bosmer is in a better place than it was before.

Now if you're on a Bosmer that isn't a nightblade, you may have slightly more difficulty than before doing DB sacraments, thieves guild heists, and pickpocketing maybe. But if you've trying those on any race on a non nightblade I'd recommend Invis, Speed pots. They're in the game, use them.

The only other reason I see people complaining about this passive change is lore. In other games, Bosmer are sneaky. This isn't other games. Zos runs it, they write the lore, they decide how different races will perform and if you don't like it and want to play a game where Bosmer get stealth passives, go play that game.

Overall I think Bosmer benefited greatly from this change and am very happy with where it is.

I love how you didn't mention stealth detection anywhere:)

The stealth detection passive is as worthless in any end game content as the argonian super swimmers and the Khajiit's pickpocket chance. Imo passives like these are simply there to add flavor to that race. Why Zos decided to change this one; don't know, don't care as it hasn't changed a single aspect of the game as far as I'm concerned.

No. Wrong. Our flavor passive is the 10% fall damage. Just like the other 8 races, the “worthless in end game” passive is in the first skill. Pickpocket Chance, swim speed, extra drink buff time etc.

Ratzkifal

Blinkin8r wrote: »

A_Silverius wrote: »

Blinkin8r wrote: »

I wanted to get in some playtime on my Bosmer Stamblade before commenting here. This has been my main toon for years and I was definitely nervous when I saw they were changing their passives.
Pre Wrathstone: My Bosmer Stamblade cleared all Craglorn HM's, VAS, VMOL, VHOF, and achieved Flawless Conqueror, and was a solid player in Cyrodiil.
Since Wrathstone: I've done all of those things and I'm still loving it in Cyrodiil. The extra penetration and speed after roll dodge is pretty niche but I'm loving it. For end game content at least, Bosmer is in a better place than it was before.

Now if you're on a Bosmer that isn't a nightblade, you may have slightly more difficulty than before doing DB sacraments, thieves guild heists, and pickpocketing maybe. But if you've trying those on any race on a non nightblade I'd recommend Invis, Speed pots. They're in the game, use them.

The only other reason I see people complaining about this passive change is lore. In other games, Bosmer are sneaky. This isn't other games. Zos runs it, they write the lore, they decide how different races will perform and if you don't like it and want to play a game where Bosmer get stealth passives, go play that game.

Overall I think Bosmer benefited greatly from this change and am very happy with where it is.

I love how you didn't mention stealth detection anywhere:)

The stealth detection passive is as worthless in any end game content as the argonian super swimmers and the Khajiit's pickpocket chance. Imo passives like these are simply there to add flavor to that race. Why Zos decided to change this one; don't know, don't care as it hasn't changed a single aspect of the game as far as I'm concerned.

@Blinkin8r Okay, so why do we sacrifice the foundation in lore for a passive that is as worthless as it can get? Bosmer already have 10% reduced fall damage in that category, the stealth radius reduction was actually useful AND represented lore. So why do we get something useless if we can keep the penetration and speed on dodgeroll IN ADDITION to having the old stealth radius reduction?

BlueRaven

max_only wrote: »

No. Wrong. Our flavor passive is the 10% fall damage. Just like the other 8 races, the “worthless in end game” passive is in the first skill. Pickpocket Chance, swim speed, extra drink buff time etc.

And the weird thing is that the 10% fall damage buff is NOT useless in the endgame. There is plenty of trial and dungeon bosses that have “drop” mechanics and that 10% reduction in damage helps.

So the free passive is useful and the hunters eye one (that cost skill points) is basically useless.

If it was reversed and the 10% fall damage reduction was in hunters eye, I would actually put points into it.

Jaraal

Korlian wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Korlian wrote: »

Has anyone even found a way to play stealth close to before this change? Is it even possible? (I'm not racechanging to Khajiit, ever.)

I did the grind, grind, grind for night mother's embrace gear in Deshaan and kept my Night Silence gear for my two stamina Bosmer, and got Night Terror jewelry from Stonefalls with Shadow Dancer gear from Greenshade and 4 bits of Magnus' Gift for my goofy hybrid. That gets them all about 2/3 of what they would have before.

And what did you have to sacrifice? Are you still able to i.e. play solo with bow/dagger? Or are you squishy now? Powerless? Or close to the same as with the gear you had with the sneak racial we used to have?

Irrelevant, if you spend the majority of your time sneaking, stealing, and murdering, like I do. Which also makes the PvP only part of the racial passives worthless. And that's what's most obnoxious about the whole thing. They are only focused on PvP balance, and couldn't give a skeever's derriere about the majority of Bosmer players..... who are PvE / Justice play focused.

They can change your stats the moment you zone into Cyro, block your CP, increase your health, delete your non-combat pets, etc.... but they can't be bothered to give you separate PvP and PvE racial bonuses? That just screams lazy indifference, and a lack of concern for people who don't fit into their niche focus group.

Don't tell me to be happy that I can kill other players better! I'm not doing that. And if I gear up to achieve the same stealth detection radius as I had before, I have to drop my Night's Silence set, which removes the speed penalty of Sneak. So, no. I'll never be able to play my game as well as I did before. But thanks for assuming! You know what they say about that....

BlueRaven

Hopefully by this time tomorrow we will know if the passives will change.

I will be on the road for most of the afternoon tomorrow as I drive up to Albany (and then to Boston on Friday), so hopefully we will have some good news before I get there.

Jaraal

anadandy wrote: »

Ok, then please explain how removing the stealth radius from only the Bosmer balanced anything and how returning it would unbalance anything in the competitive game. If it is completely noncompetitive and unimportant - why remove it?

That is just one of the questions we have been waiting to have answered. There was no good reason for removing the Bosmer stealth radius and the one that was given "stealth isn't a universal mechanic" was contradictory bunk - because they replaced it with something even less universal.

People are forgetting that the Stealthy passive also granted +10% damage bonus from Stealth. And that's what they wanted Bosmer to lose, and Khajiit to keep. But they couldn't be bothered to remove only the damage component of the passive... because it's easier and faster to just delete the whole passive than try to rework it so that stealth focused PVE players wouldn't be crippled.

Yet another thing that shows how indifference and shortsightedness affects the player base.

Ratzkifal

Jaraal wrote: »

anadandy wrote: »

Ok, then please explain how removing the stealth radius from only the Bosmer balanced anything and how returning it would unbalance anything in the competitive game. If it is completely noncompetitive and unimportant - why remove it?

That is just one of the questions we have been waiting to have answered. There was no good reason for removing the Bosmer stealth radius and the one that was given "stealth isn't a universal mechanic" was contradictory bunk - because they replaced it with something even less universal.

People are forgetting that the Stealthy passive also granted +10% damage bonus from Stealth. And that's what they wanted Bosmer to lose, and Khajiit to keep. But they couldn't be bothered to remove only the damage component of the passive... because it's easier and faster to just delete the whole passive than try to rework it so that stealth focused PVE players wouldn't be crippled.

Yet another thing that shows how indifference and shortsightedness affects the player base.

You could argue that Khajiit still have it in some form, as using shadowy cloak guarantees a crit, which the Khajiit passive boosts. So in a sense, Khajiit got both parts of the passive and Bosmer none.

anadandy

BlueRaven wrote: »

Hopefully by this time tomorrow we will know if the passives will change.

I will be on the road for most of the afternoon tomorrow as I drive up to Albany (and then to Boston on Friday), so hopefully we will have some good news before I get there.

I hope so too - or at the very least a better explanation. Safe travels!

Cundu_Ertur

wedgebert for bosmer class rep!

wedgebert

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

wedgebert for bosmer class rep!

Then they could ignore me in an official capacity!

Cundu_Ertur

From another thread:

Turelus wrote: »

Rob Actively Reads the Forum
Rob confirmed whilst he doesn’t comment on threads, he is active in reading what people are talking about and what people are annoyed with or expressing concerns about.
...
No Plans for Changes in Racial Passives
They don’t have plans at this time to revisit racial passives, they’re happy with where they are.
I did overhear in a different conversation where there was talk of changes in Elsweyr, although this was a comment I heard walking past so can’t confirm if true or context as it contradicts what I heard in a direct conversation.

Hey, Rob

Seriously, rethink this. The Bosmer 3rd passive (Hunter's Eye) is garbage. Counter-stealth is completely counter lore, completely 100% useless in PVE, and seriously underpowered (and actually counter-productive) in PVP. The roll-dodge shenanigans are underwhelming as well given the stamina cost and the need to under-build penetration in order to get any benefit from the added penetration. Frankly, the best use of the third passive is spending the skill points elsewhere. I will readily grant that the other two passives are ok, and actually a significant improvement; though I support the Argonian effort to get their poison resistance back, and swapping this should be at least considered.

I have to admit that doubling and tripling down on the mistakes of the rebalance is disappointing. Without mastery of stealth and without mastery of archery (Orcs and Dunmer are better at doing damage with bows, Redguards and Imperials have cheaper Bow skill use) THERE ARE NO BOSMER NOW from a lore perspective.

Although honestly I doubt he'll see it.

wedgebert

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Although honestly I doubt he'll see it.

And if he does, he doesn't apparently either doesn't play Bosmer or runs of one of the esoteric roll-dodge builds in PvP.

At the very least the people responsible could actually speak to the players and explain why

• Only Bosmer and Altmer are saddled with PvP only talents
• Why such a lore breaking and player frustrating change can't just be put back (I'm talking about just stealth detect -> stealth radius)
• Why Bosmer are the only race to be given a "passive" that requires burning large amounts of a resource when every other race that has a resource-consuming passive is triggered by something they were already doing. (I guess is kind of part of the PvP only quest)

Why don't companies realize that good two-way communication between players and staff is one of the most important ways to keep your customer base happy (and paying)?

anadandy

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

I have to admit that doubling and tripling down on the mistakes of the rebalance is disappointing.

It really, really is - and being dismissed with essentially "well we like it, so whatevs" doesn't feel that great. At the risk of sounding like a drama queen, I just cancelled my ESO+ sub. I'll still play, but my heart just isn't in it anymore.

MartiniDaniels

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

From another thread:

Turelus wrote: »

Rob Actively Reads the Forum
Rob confirmed whilst he doesn’t comment on threads, he is active in reading what people are talking about and what people are annoyed with or expressing concerns about.
...
No Plans for Changes in Racial Passives
They don’t have plans at this time to revisit racial passives, they’re happy with where they are.
I did overhear in a different conversation where there was talk of changes in Elsweyr, although this was a comment I heard walking past so can’t confirm if true or context as it contradicts what I heard in a direct conversation.

Hey, Rob

Seriously, rethink this. The Bosmer 3rd passive (Hunter's Eye) is garbage. Counter-stealth is completely counter lore, completely 100% useless in PVE, and seriously underpowered (and actually counter-productive) in PVP. The roll-dodge shenanigans are underwhelming as well given the stamina cost and the need to under-build penetration in order to get any benefit from the added penetration. Frankly, the best use of the third passive is spending the skill points elsewhere. I will readily grant that the other two passives are ok, and actually a significant improvement; though I support the Argonian effort to get their poison resistance back, and swapping this should be at least considered.

I have to admit that doubling and tripling down on the mistakes of the rebalance is disappointing. Without mastery of stealth and without mastery of archery (Orcs and Dunmer are better at doing damage with bows, Redguards and Imperials have cheaper Bow skill use) THERE ARE NO BOSMER NOW from a lore perspective.

Although honestly I doubt he'll see it.

Well, at least from Q&A you may see that there is no special ignorance for bosmers or stealth etc. On every point, regarding community concerns and which were selected by reps as often mentioned and important, answer is "NO".

Seraphayel

BlueRaven wrote: »

Hopefully by this time tomorrow we will know if the passives will change.

No they won't and you already knew this when the racials went live. Again, there was no indication that anything would change. We had a PTR cycle with commentary they adjusted some racials and others were not touched. ZOS settled down on them and maybe it's time to finally accept it.

Jaraal

I'll bet if they gave every other race a PvP only racial, the outcry would be overwhelming.

MartiniDaniels

Seraphayel wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

Hopefully by this time tomorrow we will know if the passives will change.

No they won't and you already knew this when the racials went live.

Oh, it's everybody knowledge that racials won't be revisited in nearest couple of years. This thread and those Q&A is just a reminder not to put a single cent in this game. (though i put a lot before and regularly, literally buying anything i like)