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Wood Elf/ Bosmer losing stealth passive, An open letter.

  • Ogou
    Ogou
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    BlueRaven wrote: »
    Tasear wrote: »
    tyggerbob wrote: »
    Like I said before, I wonder how many of the people they consulted actually PLAY Bosmers or do justice quests regularly?

    Issue would be focus on combat gameplay is thought.

    This is certainly the impression I got from the race changes. Many appear to be very narrow focused to particular gameplay types and roles.

    Which matches perfectly with the goal to open up more choices.

    Other way around. ZOS' goal was to give players more options when they are choosing a race for a specific role not to give races more gameplay options.
  • Ogou
    Ogou
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    Ogou wrote: »
    BlueRaven wrote: »
    Tasear wrote: »
    tyggerbob wrote: »
    Like I said before, I wonder how many of the people they consulted actually PLAY Bosmers or do justice quests regularly?

    Issue would be focus on combat gameplay is thought.

    This is certainly the impression I got from the race changes. Many appear to be very narrow focused to particular gameplay types and roles.

    Which matches perfectly with the goal to open up more choices.

    Other way around. ZOS' goal was to give players more options when they are choosing a race for a specific role not to give races more gameplay options.

    So when Gilliam said
    Now, instead of having a single race that focuses almost exclusively on a specific playstyle, you can pick based on a personal level.

    he didn't actually mean
    Now, instead of having a single race that focuses almost exclusively on a specific playstyle, you can pick based on a personal level.

    but something else.

    Because, to me, it seems that
    Now, instead of having a single race that focuses almost exclusively on a specific playstyle, you can pick based on a personal level.

    means
    Now, instead of having a single race that focuses almost exclusively on a specific playstyle, you can pick based on a personal level.

    which would mean that having a single race (Khajiit) as the exclusive thief race was not the original intent.

    And yet, their stated goal from that same post was:
    Allow more effective options when picking a race for each role in tanking, healing, or damage dealing.

    So yes, I am pretty sure that by playstyles @ZOS_Gilliam was referring to the tank/dps/healer roles and giving those more option than one single race.
  • wedgebert
    wedgebert
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    Ogou wrote: »
    So yes, I am pretty sure that by playstyles @ZOS_Gilliam was referring to the tank/dps/healer roles and giving those more option than one single race.

    So I guess they achieved that.

    As DPS you can pick from both Orc and Breton!
  • Ogou
    Ogou
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    wedgebert wrote: »
    Ogou wrote: »
    So yes, I am pretty sure that by playstyles @ZOS_Gilliam was referring to the tank/dps/healer roles and giving those more option than one single race.

    So I guess they achieved that.

    As DPS you can pick from both Orc and Breton!

    Well, technically yes. You can choose between Altmer, Khajiit, Breton, Orc, Redguard, Dunmer or Bosmer depending on your preferences.
    Ogou wrote: »
    Ogou wrote: »
    BlueRaven wrote: »
    Tasear wrote: »
    tyggerbob wrote: »
    Like I said before, I wonder how many of the people they consulted actually PLAY Bosmers or do justice quests regularly?

    Issue would be focus on combat gameplay is thought.

    This is certainly the impression I got from the race changes. Many appear to be very narrow focused to particular gameplay types and roles.

    Which matches perfectly with the goal to open up more choices.

    Other way around. ZOS' goal was to give players more options when they are choosing a race for a specific role not to give races more gameplay options.

    So when Gilliam said
    Now, instead of having a single race that focuses almost exclusively on a specific playstyle, you can pick based on a personal level.

    he didn't actually mean
    Now, instead of having a single race that focuses almost exclusively on a specific playstyle, you can pick based on a personal level.

    but something else.

    Because, to me, it seems that
    Now, instead of having a single race that focuses almost exclusively on a specific playstyle, you can pick based on a personal level.

    means
    Now, instead of having a single race that focuses almost exclusively on a specific playstyle, you can pick based on a personal level.

    which would mean that having a single race (Khajiit) as the exclusive thief race was not the original intent.

    And yet, their stated goal from that same post was:
    Allow more effective options when picking a race for each role in tanking, healing, or damage dealing.

    So yes, I am pretty sure that by playstyles @ZOS_Gilliam was referring to the tank/dps/healer roles and giving those more option than one single race.

    And how does limiting stealth gameplay, which has been a part of TES for 25 year, factor in as an absolute REQUIREMENT to do so? The other 2 Bosmer passives improved Bosmer dramatically -- they went from below the bottom of the barrel for stamDPS to somewhere in the middle of the pack. And no-one is complaining about that, except maybe to quibble about which resistance Bosmer should have. How does limiting all bonus to stealth to one race fit in? The only honest answer is that it does not. It would make no sense to take it from Khajiit, and it makes no sense to take it from Bosmer.

    It does not and I never said it did.
  • Ogou
    Ogou
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    wedgebert wrote: »
    Ogou wrote: »
    wedgebert wrote: »
    Ogou wrote: »
    So yes, I am pretty sure that by playstyles @ZOS_Gilliam was referring to the tank/dps/healer roles and giving those more option than one single race.

    So I guess they achieved that.

    As DPS you can pick from both Orc and Breton!

    But that's like saying you can pick Argonian for stealth gameplay or Altmer for tanking. Yes, you technically can pick any race for any role.

    However some races have overwhelming benefits compared to others. Orc and Breton for stam/magicka DPS respectively.

    That would be true only if I said something along the lines of "choose any of the 10 races for any role you want". But that's not what I said.
    I gave you seven specific races (some for stamina, some for magicka) that have been shown to be close to each other in terms of DPS. So no, I don't see how
    wedgebert wrote: »
    [snip] that's like saying you can pick Argonian for stealth gameplay or Altmer for tanking.

    Also, what do you mean by overwhelming? The DPS races are closer now than they have ever been. To the point that the difference between them is smaller than the random variation between parses.
    Does that mean they are equal? Nope, the only way to accomplish that would be to remove all combat bonuses from the racial passives.

    Then again, that's not the point of this thread so I'm going to leave it at that.
    Edited by Ogou on March 26, 2019 3:34PM
  • BlueRaven
    BlueRaven
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    Well hopefully there is some good news for us tomorrow. :/

    From somewhere that is, now that I think about it does that mean we may get pts patch notes tomorrow?
  • AngelFires333
    AngelFires333
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    Bosmer are still master race.

    f90989ae8afdf9533c5960685bd0b9d7.jpg
  • Cundu_Ertur
    Cundu_Ertur
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    Korlian wrote: »
    Has anyone even found a way to play stealth close to before this change? Is it even possible? (I'm not racechanging to Khajiit, ever.)
    I did the grind, grind, grind for night mother's embrace gear in Deshaan and kept my Night Silence gear for my two stamina Bosmer, and got Night Terror jewelry from Stonefalls with Shadow Dancer gear from Greenshade and 4 bits of Magnus' Gift for my goofy hybrid. That gets them all about 2/3 of what they would have before.
    Taking stealth away from the Bosmer is like taking magic away from the Altmer, making Nords allergic to mead, or making Orcs pretty.
  • Jaraal
    Jaraal
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    Korlian wrote: »
    Pretty much all the fun is gone for me since I can't play the way I want to play anymore. All attempts to play since this change has lead to frustration and quitting the game everytime I try logging in. My fun has turned to frustration, it's sad. I wish I could refund my subscription that I got just before this change happen, not having fun, at all... so a total waste of money.

    Has anyone even found a way to play stealth close to before this change? Is it even possible? (I'm not racechanging to Khajiit, ever.)

    It was a planned decision on their part to force people to convert to Khajiit to break down resistance to playing the race, in order to sell more copies of the upcoming Khajiit chapter. Unfortunately, it seems to be backfiring on them. Can't buy a new DLC if you aren't playing.
    RIP Bosmer Nation. 4/4/14 - 2/25/19.
  • Ogou
    Ogou
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    Jaraal wrote: »
    Korlian wrote: »
    Pretty much all the fun is gone for me since I can't play the way I want to play anymore. All attempts to play since this change has lead to frustration and quitting the game everytime I try logging in. My fun has turned to frustration, it's sad. I wish I could refund my subscription that I got just before this change happen, not having fun, at all... so a total waste of money.

    Has anyone even found a way to play stealth close to before this change? Is it even possible? (I'm not racechanging to Khajiit, ever.)

    It was a planned decision on their part to force people to convert to Khajiit to break down resistance to playing the race, in order to sell more copies of the upcoming Khajiit chapter. Unfortunately, it seems to be backfiring on them. Can't buy a new DLC if you aren't playing.

    They didn't have to that for Morrowind, they didn't have to do that for Summerset, why would they be doing that now for Elsweyr when according to ZOS themselves it has been the most requested region for a while now?
  • tyggerbob
    tyggerbob
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    Ogou wrote: »
    Other way around. ZOS' goal was to give players more options when they are choosing a race for a specific role not to give races more gameplay options.

    Well they certainly narrowed the playing field for good justice play by making Khajiits the only really good sneaking race.. :)

    If you're a Bosmer, how did you used to steal that one of a kind item? Un-neek up on it! (oh... wait.. can't do that anymore! (waits patiently for Ogou's traditional response)
    Edited by tyggerbob on March 27, 2019 3:59PM
  • HankTwo
    HankTwo
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    Easy mode PvE sneak build that works on any class/race and doesn't require vampire:

    https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=131042

    5 pieces night mother's embrace armor, 5 pieces night's silence on bow bar, 4 pieces night terror on dw bar, swift jewelry and steed mundus for extra speed.

    Very small detection radius on dw bar and no sneak speed penalty on bow bar. Good movement speed in general and sneak cost ist basically non existent. People who claim stealthy playstyle is destroyed because of one passive have no clue how to create a build it seems.
    PC EU
    Stam DK, Magden, Magplar, Stamcro, Hybrid Sorc, Magblade & Mag DK
  • tyggerbob
    tyggerbob
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    Ogou wrote: »
    They didn't have to that for Morrowind, they didn't have to do that for Summerset, why would they be doing that now for Elsweyr when according to ZOS themselves it has been the most requested region for a while now?
    Ogou wrote: »
    Jaraal wrote: »
    Korlian wrote: »
    Pretty much all the fun is gone for me since I can't play the way I want to play anymore. All attempts to play since this change has lead to frustration and quitting the game everytime I try logging in. My fun has turned to frustration, it's sad. I wish I could refund my subscription that I got just before this change happen, not having fun, at all... so a total waste of money.

    Has anyone even found a way to play stealth close to before this change? Is it even possible? (I'm not racechanging to Khajiit, ever.)

    It was a planned decision on their part to force people to convert to Khajiit to break down resistance to playing the race, in order to sell more copies of the upcoming Khajiit chapter. Unfortunately, it seems to be backfiring on them. Can't buy a new DLC if you aren't playing.

    They didn't have to that for Morrowind, they didn't have to do that for Summerset, why would they be doing that now for Elsweyr when according to ZOS themselves it has been the most requested region for a while now?

    Because many players in this game can be very 'humanoid-centric' and have a prejudice against playing what they think of as 'furries' or 'lizards'. That doesn't exist to the same extent for Dunmer or Altmer, that I have seen. I could see them using this as an opportunity to try to overcome this.
  • tyggerbob
    tyggerbob
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    HankTwo wrote: »
    Easy mode PvE sneak build that works on any class/race and doesn't require vampire:

    https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=131042

    5 pieces night mother's embrace armor, 5 pieces night's silence on bow bar, 4 pieces night terror on dw bar, swift jewelry and steed mundus for extra speed.

    Very small detection radius on dw bar and no sneak speed penalty on bow bar. Good movement speed in general and sneak cost ist basically non existent. People who claim stealthy playstyle is destroyed because of one passive have no clue how to create a build it seems.

    I wouldn't go so far as to say destroyed. And yes I have that same build.. but when you combined it with the passive, Bosmers were nearly invisible
  • Ogou
    Ogou
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    tyggerbob wrote: »
    Ogou wrote: »
    Other way around. ZOS' goal was to give players more options when they are choosing a race for a specific role not to give races more gameplay options.

    Well they certainly narrowed the playing field for good justice play by making Khajiits the only really good sneaking race.. :)

    If you're a Bosmer, how did you used to steal that one of a kind item? Un-neek up on it! (oh... wait.. can't do that anymore! (waits patiently for Ogou's traditional response)

    True, but they did not approach the changes with the goal of opening up the justice gameplay. That was more of a consequence of the weird (and imho wrong) way they decided to make the different races unique. On paper, they accomplished their goals. They just broke some people's fun with it too, in typical ZOS fashion.

    Goddammit Bob!!! :D
  • tyggerbob
    tyggerbob
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    Ogou wrote: »
    tyggerbob wrote: »
    Ogou wrote: »
    Other way around. ZOS' goal was to give players more options when they are choosing a race for a specific role not to give races more gameplay options.

    Well they certainly narrowed the playing field for good justice play by making Khajiits the only really good sneaking race.. :)

    If you're a Bosmer, how did you used to steal that one of a kind item? Un-neek up on it! (oh... wait.. can't do that anymore! (waits patiently for Ogou's traditional response)

    True, but they did not approach the changes with the goal of opening up the justice gameplay. That was more of a consequence of the weird (and imho wrong) way they decided to make the different races unique. On paper, they accomplished their goals. They just broke some people's fun with it too, in typical ZOS fashion.

    Goddammit Bob!!! :D

    That is true. It was a side effect, not a goal.
    and LOL!
  • Ogou
    Ogou
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    tyggerbob wrote: »
    Ogou wrote: »
    They didn't have to that for Morrowind, they didn't have to do that for Summerset, why would they be doing that now for Elsweyr when according to ZOS themselves it has been the most requested region for a while now?
    Ogou wrote: »
    Jaraal wrote: »
    Korlian wrote: »
    Pretty much all the fun is gone for me since I can't play the way I want to play anymore. All attempts to play since this change has lead to frustration and quitting the game everytime I try logging in. My fun has turned to frustration, it's sad. I wish I could refund my subscription that I got just before this change happen, not having fun, at all... so a total waste of money.

    Has anyone even found a way to play stealth close to before this change? Is it even possible? (I'm not racechanging to Khajiit, ever.)

    It was a planned decision on their part to force people to convert to Khajiit to break down resistance to playing the race, in order to sell more copies of the upcoming Khajiit chapter. Unfortunately, it seems to be backfiring on them. Can't buy a new DLC if you aren't playing.

    They didn't have to that for Morrowind, they didn't have to do that for Summerset, why would they be doing that now for Elsweyr when according to ZOS themselves it has been the most requested region for a while now?

    Because many players in this game can be very 'humanoid-centric' and have a prejudice against playing what they think of as 'furries' or 'lizards'. That doesn't exist to the same extent for Dunmer or Altmer, that I have seen. I could see them using this as an opportunity to try to overcome this.

    True, but you don't have to be a Khajiit to play the Elsweyr chapter, just like you didn't have to be a Altmer to play Summerset. I just don't see what ZOS stands to gain from trying to make Khajiit more popular.
  • HankTwo
    HankTwo
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    tyggerbob wrote: »
    HankTwo wrote: »
    Easy mode PvE sneak build that works on any class/race and doesn't require vampire:

    https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=131042

    5 pieces night mother's embrace armor, 5 pieces night's silence on bow bar, 4 pieces night terror on dw bar, swift jewelry and steed mundus for extra speed.

    Very small detection radius on dw bar and no sneak speed penalty on bow bar. Good movement speed in general and sneak cost ist basically non existent. People who claim stealthy playstyle is destroyed because of one passive have no clue how to create a build it seems.

    I wouldn't go so far as to say destroyed. And yes I have that same build.. but when you combined it with the passive, Bosmers were nearly invisible

    So what, now its just easy mode instead of super easy mode with such a build? I'm not even sure why people want to be almost invisible, where is the challenge in that? I completed both dark brotherhood and thieves guild on a heavy armor non-vampire nord (including heist and sacrament achievements). At least I had to play somewhat careful doing it this way.

    I understand that some players dislike this change, but they should stick to the facts. Stealth gameplay is manageable on any race and I don't see that ever changing in the future. Claiming otherwise is just dishonest.
    PC EU
    Stam DK, Magden, Magplar, Stamcro, Hybrid Sorc, Magblade & Mag DK
This discussion has been closed.