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Wood Elf/ Bosmer losing stealth passive, An open letter.

  • Sylvermynx
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    @Jaraal - maybe "non-humanoid", as elves of whichever flavor aren't "human". But yes, I agree, it's a blatant money-making scheme. I find it extremely annoying personally, even though I don't play my Bosmer as stealthy sneak-thieves or assassins.

    Thing is.... I already have three khajiit on two accounts. I won't be making any more now - because ZOS is pushing my buttons here.

    In fact.... I believe I'll be making more Bosmer. And still ignoring that passive. Right now, I have three Bosmer also. I might make six more....

    Yep. I'm kind of being nasty. Isn't @Gilliamtherogue Bosmer? Or was that some other Gilliam I saw?
  • Ratzkifal
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    If you all had to describe the differences between Bosmer and Khajiit in regards to their unique approach to stealth, what would that be?

    My idea was that the distinction could be made at the level of approaching the target and avoiding the guard. The way I see it, Khajiit could then be better at getting close to the target and Bosmer could be better at not getting caught. Unfortunately both could make really good use of the reduced detection radius, so I'm trying to think of what else they could bring to the table that enables this distinction without defaulting back to 3m radius. Nothing I came up with so far fits the bill neatly.
    Edited by Ratzkifal on March 18, 2019 1:31AM
    This Bosmer was tortured to death. There is nothing left to be done.
  • Ratzkifal
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    wedgebert wrote: »
    Ratzkifal wrote: »
    If you all had to describe the differences between Bosmer and Khajiit in regards to their unique approach to stealth, what would that be?

    My idea was that the distinction could be made at the level of approaching the target and avoiding the guard. The way I see it, Khajiit could then be better at getting close to the target and Bosmer could be better at not getting caught. Unfortunately both could make really good use of the reduced detection radius, so I'm trying to think of what else they could bring to the table that enables this distinction without defaulting back to 3m radius. Nothing I came up with so far fits the bill neatly.

    I'd say Khajiit are quiet, Bosmer are better at moving unseen. I base this mostly on all the Khajiit stealth/thieving comes from their natural agility. Whereas Bosmer are (as my now favorite Bosmer quote says) "able to disappear within the shade of a single leaf".

    But you're right, given how rudimentary the ESO stealth model, there's no real difference and they both justify the 3m stealth reduction.

    I was thinking about having an "invisibility frame" on top of the invincibility frame during dodgeroll on Khajiit to highlight their acrobatic-stealth in contrast to the Bosmer who could then get the 3m reduced radius, but I can't help but feel like that would be a downgrade for Khajiit and I want to avoid that. It's a really tough nut to crack as long as we have to work on the assumption that ZOS won't accept 3m radius reduction on both races. It could be a lot simpler if we distinguish them by giving both 3m and then adding something sneak related on top, but at that point things would probably get really overloaded, since those passives already have to share...
    This Bosmer was tortured to death. There is nothing left to be done.
  • Ratzkifal
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    Ratzkifal wrote: »
    If you all had to describe the differences between Bosmer and Khajiit in regards to their unique approach to stealth, what would that be?

    My idea was that the distinction could be made at the level of approaching the target and avoiding the guard. The way I see it, Khajiit could then be better at getting close to the target and Bosmer could be better at not getting caught. Unfortunately both could make really good use of the reduced detection radius, so I'm trying to think of what else they could bring to the table that enables this distinction without defaulting back to 3m radius. Nothing I came up with so far fits the bill neatly.

    There's a point where you drop back and punt.

    There's no reason to say only one race can be stealthy. None. The same way there's no reason to say 'only orcs can have a weapon damage bonus so take it away from the dark elves.' Just because there's some overlap doesn't make the whole thing the same. And there's no reason to say you don't do it with a different implementation. Say for example, Khajiit get the 1/2/3m reduction in their radius which they have now, while the Bosmer get a 10/20/30% reduction which would stack with the medium armor reduction (or whatever numbers are appropriate). Two ways of doing similar things but differently. Even then, I'd say it's over-complicating something for no good result, but it would be distinct.

    I am pretty sure that ideally ZOS wants different gameplay patterns to emerge for stealth and I am basing all my ideas on the assumption that ZOS won't accept giving them the same 3m, even though I think that would be perfectly acceptable.
    However if I (or anyone else) can come up with something that works within this frame and is acceptable, then there would be no need to discuss the design philosophy anymore, making the whole fight to get stealth back a lot easier.
    And while I like the idea of working with % and flat values as distinction, and accordingly making one better at sneaking in light or heavy armor, it doesn't exactly provide this "unique approach" because both races have essentially the same effect with just slightly different values (which breaks the assumed work frame).
    This Bosmer was tortured to death. There is nothing left to be done.
  • Ratzkifal
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    wedgebert wrote: »
    Ratzkifal wrote: »
    I am pretty sure that ideally ZOS wants different gameplay patterns to emerge for stealth and I am basing all my ideas on the assumption that ZOS won't accept giving them the same 3m, even though I think that would be perfectly acceptable.
    However if I (or anyone else) can come up with something that works within this frame and is acceptable, then there would be no need to discuss the design philosophy anymore, making the whole fight to get stealth back a lot easier.
    And while I like the idea of working with % and flat values as distinction, and accordingly making one better at sneaking in light or heavy armor, it doesn't exactly provide this "unique approach" because both races have essentially the same effect with just slightly different values (which breaks the assumed work frame).

    But why are Bosmer and Khajiit the only ones to suffer from this distinction? No other race has any kind of flavor passive unless you count the redguard snare reduction or altmer spell recharge, both of which don't add anything interesting or helpful to gameplay.

    We might be putting words on ZOS's mouth with the whole "two races can't have the same flavor" thing. Granted they used that as an excuse for the recent change, but that doesn't mean that they can't realize they made a mistake and go back.

    Well, hopefully. I also don't like this "exclusivity" if the races are dinstinguished enough in other regards already, which with Khajiit and Bosmer I'd say they are. Just want to be prepared for a less optimal scenario.
    This Bosmer was tortured to death. There is nothing left to be done.
  • Cundu_Ertur
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    wedgebert wrote: »
    Stealth cost reduction could work, but honestly it's also pretty weak. I don't wear any stealth sets, have any points in Improved Hiding, or have any CP in stealth cost reduction and I barely even notice my stamina dipping. Even in heists where it's sprint - stealth - sprint -stealth. Basically my only stealth cost reduction is Improved Sneak (which is giving me 35% I guess). So a cost reduction would only help heavy/light armor classes, but since Bosmer are a stam dps race, I'd imagine that's a small percentage.

    Hiding faster is just plain worthless. Maybe it'd be useful in a heist or sacrament, but yeah, not good.

    And stealth speed currently has a skill, and it requires a stage 4 vampire with the level 9 passive Dark Stalker. In fact, Dark Stalker also decreases time to crouch by 50% at night.

    To have a racial passive that duplicates that high of a skill would probably be unfair. I see a lot of people go vampire for the stealth speed bonuses and if Bosmer had even part of that it would seriously weaken Vampires, and make Bosmer Vampires kinda redundant.

    Like you said there's not a lot you can do with stealth. It's really only
    1. Harder to spot
    2. Move faster
    3. Hide faster
    4. Less cost
    5. Improved damage

    For #1, there are racial passives, skills, and set bonuses that grant it. It's also the easiest one to grant without breaking the game.
    #2 Has one skill (Dark Stalker) and two sets that remove the crouch speed cost and one skill that increases speed (so you can stealth 125% of walk speed)
    #3 Only has the same skill Dark Stalker
    #4 Has a bunch of skills, passives, and sets to remove. So many that any more and I'm sure you'd regain stamina by sneaking.
    #5 Has one skill and four sets that boost damage from stealth. This was why the removed it from both Bosmer and Khajiit, it was too easy to stack stealth damage to wreck other players.

    There's also that one set (Shadow Walker) that grants health/stam recovery when stealthed and not moving. I'd hate to have that a racial because it's also pretty weak. If you're in stealth, you're probably not in combat so you already get buffs to recovery speed.

    So really, unless they come up with a different unique trait (but not Shadow Walker), #1 is the only option.

    Exactly.
    And why this is too complicated.
    And why actual stealth is the only stealth buff that matters. Everything else is window dressing for the main item, which is the stealthy part of being stealthy.

    Redguards have stam regen, though it works in a different way from Bosmer stam regen, but it is roughly just as effective (maybe more, maybe less depending on specifics). Similar effect achieved in a different way.

    Why can't Bosmer have stealth that works a different way from the Khajiit 1-3m reduction? Khajiit get the effect the way an armor set achieves the effect, Bosmer get the effect the way a skill does like an extension of the medium armor skill line. Similar effect achieved in a different way.
    Taking stealth away from the Bosmer is like taking magic away from the Altmer, making Nords allergic to mead, or making Orcs pretty.
  • max_only
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    Universe wrote: »
    max_only wrote: »
    Universe wrote: »
    A well deserved change to an OP racial passive.
    This letter can now be closed :D

    This guy thought Bosmer were op before :D:D:D:D:D



    Bosmer! OP! In what world? Maybe a potato world?

    I was being sarcastic LOL :)
    It seems the forums can't understand jokes :D
    L2UnderstandSarcasm! B)

    My bad bro, Respect.
    #FiteForYourRite Bosmer = Stealth
    #OppositeResourceSiphoningAttacks
    || CP 1000+ || PC/NA || GUILDS: LWH; IA; CH; XA
    ""All gods' creatures (you lot) are equal when covered in A1 sauce"" -- Old Bosmeri Wisdom
  • BlueRaven
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    Jaraal wrote: »
    If I were to consider appropriate lore between the two races, I would think of the term "quick as a cat", and it would make sense to me that Khajiit could move faster while hidden than a humanoid race. So, if it were up to me, and I was directed to give both races stealth, but make them different (and make Khajiit better, which seems to be ZOS's intention)...... then I would give both races their original 3 meters of detection reduction, but give Khajiit a slight speed bonus while in stealth.

    Now, this isn't unprecedented, as if you are a Nightblade, you already can slot the Concealed Weapon ability which gives you 25% more speed when crouched. So it's a very simple code addition, as all a NB has to do is activate a button to gain/lose 25% speed. Which basically translates to if X (ability) = Y (Concealed Weapon ability) then Z (speed when crouched) = speed+25%. It wouldn't take more than changing the value of Y (Race = Khajiit) to give then something different and better than Bosmer.

    I'm ok with Khajiit being better than Bosmer. My only hope is that Bosmer can be as good as it once was, so that my wood elf thief is playable again.

    “Quick as a cat” to me speaks to reflexes and run speed. When cats prowl they move slowly, right?

  • Universe
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    max_only wrote: »
    Universe wrote: »
    max_only wrote: »
    Universe wrote: »
    A well deserved change to an OP racial passive.
    This letter can now be closed :D

    This guy thought Bosmer were op before :D:D:D:D:D



    Bosmer! OP! In what world? Maybe a potato world?

    I was being sarcastic LOL :)
    It seems the forums can't understand jokes :D
    L2UnderstandSarcasm! B)

    My bad bro, Respect.

    No problem mate :)
    In the end it has motivated me to think about a solution to the problem and even present it rather than just making a joke, so it actually helped the situation in a weird way :)
    Though over 1100 comments discussion makes visibility of the different comments very limited.
    To be honest, I didn't read most of the previous 1,000 comments TL:DR XD
    I do hope that ZOS won't close the discussion since they did that in the past when a discussion got to a book long.
    Some videos I recorded for fun: Main character:
    PC EU main: Universe - AD magicka Sorcerer, Former Emperor, Grand Overlord, The Merciless, Trial Bosses Solo Champion
    Top alts: Genius(stamina/sagicka Dragonknight) The Force(stamina Nightblade) and other chars.
    PC NA main: The Magic - AD magicka Sorcerer
    Started playing ESO in beta & early access
    User_ID: Daedric_Prince
  • Jaraal
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    BlueRaven wrote: »
    “Quick as a cat” to me speaks to reflexes and run speed. When cats prowl they move slowly, right?

    A common house cat can run both faster and more silently than a person. I would say they prowl much faster than a human.

    RIP Bosmer Nation. 4/4/14 - 2/25/19.
  • ibeprofun
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    Im going to make a bet on this...

    After most people have exhausted their free race change tokens, ZOS will "tweek" bosmers, giving them their stealth passive back. Then, they get to charge us for new race change tokens.

    It's actually just a business decision.
  • Sylvermynx
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    With my ping, I can't dodge roll or bar swap etc. So it's useless for me. Yeah I know I'm one of those edge cases, so it's a damn good thing I enjoy the game.... in other directions.

    Really, I love the game. I have various issues with the combat. I also have issues with the way quests are developed. Sure I can do a lot of the "lead up" stuff on any given faction quest line....

    Eh, you don't get xp on that sort of thing. And you certainly do NOT get the skill point + goodies. With 2k ms ping (all the time - it's satellite, not getting better EVER) I simply cannot get through the "mini boss" at the end of most quest lines. It's actually pretty frustrating....
  • ibeprofun
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    This is OT, but...

    Maybe you should be playing a tank class. Use proc sets to kill.
  • luizpaulom17
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    Stop crying m8... U just want that passive back so U can keep using cloak and snipe on BGs, like most elves and Cats used tu do... Get over it...

    I hated losing my cat 8% crit, was crying on forums for it... and when changes came to Live got 2k more DPS on first try... They did a good job over all, ony orc now seems a bit OP, but still its more balanced.
This discussion has been closed.