Wood Elf/ Bosmer losing stealth passive, An open letter.

KMarble

Tasear wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Tasear wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

Tasear wrote: »

Bosmer just add something that makes they good at stealth not just finding people in stealth... like movement speed.

Since they are big on giving set bonuses as passives now, rather than percentages, then why not make the stealth part of the Bosmer passive the same as the Night's Silence or Shadow Dancer's Raiment sets: Ignore the movement penalty of Sneak. Then my Bosmer can trade the NS set for Night Mother's Embrace and be back to an additional 2 meter detection reduction when paired with the 2 meter reduction of the 3 pc bonus of Night Terror set.

It's not quite the 3 meters we had before, and would still put us 1 meter less stealthy than Khajiit.... but it would still make both Bosmer and Khajiit have to wear 2 stealth related sets to hit the cap of both reduction and speed combined.

That also negates a significant vampire perk, and a top level one at that (dark stalker, 9 level vampire req, only procs at stage 4).
I don't see why this is complicated. It was a mistake to take stealth away from Bosmer. Rectify the mistake by not doing that.

Issue is khajitt already has that perk and they wanted things differently between races. So I do believe bosmers do have a case lorewise I think if calling for changes got to see how bosmers can have shealth but not same as khajitt. Also unlike shealth detection make them good as theives.

And that's silly. What will Breton get since Altmer get magic? There hasn't been a problem with Bosmer and Khajiit both having bonuses to stealth for over 15 years. It is part of the lore for both races, some of which goes even farther back to Daggerfall and beyond, every bit as much as magic is part of the lore for Breton and Altmer. It is impossible to keep from duplicating parts of passives for things: the way Orcs and Dunmer overlap with their respective weapons damage bonuses, or the various stamina bonuses for several races, or the various magicka bonuses for several races. It's silly to single stealth out with some kind of highlanderesque 'there can be only one' nonsense. There has NEVER been only one stealthy race in TES. Ever. It's silly, monumentally Dr. Seuss level rhyming silly, to start with that now.

edit to add: the problem is that the original bonus was too high, and the ability for other races to get a similar bonus non-existent. The racial bonus (which ought to be shared between the Khajiit and Bosmer) should be lower, 1/2 to 1/3 of what it is now; and every race should be able to improve their stealth to a greater degree than now possible.

I don't disagree but that's what it says how the approached design changes. The unique non combat things were a looked as one per race as you can see.

So I suggest consider weighing debate with understanding why they made changes then try to convince them otherwise.

How would khajitt be different from bosmer in shealth feature? Why should they both have same or different? How has changes to bosmers impacted gameplay. Show them how this is still very important to your gameplay experience.

Here's the thing, I don't understand why they made the change. It doesn't make sense to me because they were inconsistent. Case in point, as @tyggerbob pointed out, both Imperials and Red Guards have the same stamina passive.
Had they said that each race would have unique passives and stuck to it, I'd be sad about the loss of stealth, but I wouldn't have much grounds for complaint. But they didn't. The said that and proceeded to give some races the exact same passive.

It feels to me that what I consider stealth in this game and what the devs consider stealth are two very different and distinct things. To me, stealth is the ability to go unnoticed. I not sure what the devs think stealth means.

Giving them the benefit of the doubt, the changes were made to give the players more options, but the reality is that it took options away from players. Before the patch I could be a good thief because I was stealthy and had less chances of being caught while opening containers and/or breaking into a building, or I could be good at picking pockets. I didn't have one character that was "The Perfect Thief". I had to be more resourceful and better rounded player to work with those characters (I've been playing with a wood elf since I started with this game, almost a year ago. Yesterday I was working on a new character - an Orc - and had to adjust even how I moved the mouse because of the size difference).

I think that as far as stealth for Khajiits go, they can't get the tooth paste back in the tube, so to speak, so they should keep it. I don't know why both races cannot share the same trait, so I can't give suggestions on that.

As for how my gameplay was affected, my main is a sorcerer and I only discovered the joys of stealing a few months ago. Since then I've leveled up legerdemain to the max (that was the skill line that took me the least amount of time to level up since I enjoy it so much).
Any day when I can have a good gaming session I will have more stolen stuff in my bag than I can sell. I would steal a lot and not worry about inventory (I don't have my back pack maxed, but when I managed to fence everything I usually only had 30 to 40 items left in the bag). I can't do that anymore because I need to carry around 3 items from one set and 5 from another (I steal in-between quests).

I used to walk - yes, walk. I didn't even ride. - from point A to point B because there might be things to be stolen in between two objectives. After the patch I always stop and wonder if it's worth the hassle of changing gear. More times than not, nowadays I use the shrines because it's bothersome to stop, change gear and go on a stealing spree to then stop again, change gear another time and go back to the quest.

I created a Khajiit a few months before Elsewyr was announced, and tbh I feel less inclined to play with her now. I was looking forward to figuring out how different it was playing a Khajiit thief, and before I had a chance to find out how to make it work I had a wood elf with fur and tail on my hands. For me, the life span of this game was decreased by however many hours I put into the wood elf. There is no point for me to play the Khajiit because I will be learning nothing from it.

Jaraal

tyggerbob wrote: »

@ZOS_GinaBruno @Gilliamtherogue
Despite Gilliam's confusing, contradictory and not lore-friendly, response,

Wildbloom wrote: »

ZoS wants the racials to be different. Key word: ZoS.

But that's not necessarily true. Like I pointed out before, both Imperials and Redguards have the 2k stamina bonus. So this 'distinct racials' thing is a crock. No reason they couldn't do the same for Khajiits and Bosmers.

I still believe they are making Khajiit more attractive to play in order to sell more of the upcoming Khajiit chapter.


I see thieves and assassins everywhere I go.... because like me, they know the best places to go. And to be honest, I probably (used to) see three times as many Bosmer thieves as Khajiit. There is indeed a strong anti-non-human sentiment in the game, I see people saying all the time "I'll never play a furry," etc. But limiting elite stealth play to one race, who just happen to be the the focus of your upcoming expansion, is to me a cruel and calculated way of making more money at the expense of people who have grown attached to these Bosmer characters they've been playing for years. And not only did they remove the popular stealth passive, but they added something that makes Bosmer even less attractive to those who focus on Justice play: a PvP only "perk" that is worthless to PvE thieves.

Prove me wrong!

Sylvermynx

@Jaraal - maybe "non-humanoid", as elves of whichever flavor aren't "human". But yes, I agree, it's a blatant money-making scheme. I find it extremely annoying personally, even though I don't play my Bosmer as stealthy sneak-thieves or assassins.

Thing is.... I already have three khajiit on two accounts. I won't be making any more now - because ZOS is pushing my buttons here.

In fact.... I believe I'll be making more Bosmer. And still ignoring that passive. Right now, I have three Bosmer also. I might make six more....

Yep. I'm kind of being nasty. Isn't @Gilliamtherogue Bosmer? Or was that some other Gilliam I saw?

anadandy

Eiron77 wrote: »

The thing is, with Khajit and Bosmer racials in their current iteration, you can give both Khajits and Bosmers the same stealth bonus and the races will not feel the same in the slightest.

Agreed. I have said before that with all the other changes, the races are distinct enough. I honestly think (tin hat on) that they looked at the passives, they were both called "Stealthy" and someone said "Oh noes! That will not do!"

Then they fished for new names, came up with Hunter's Eye, though it sounded cool then shoehorned the skills into it without even realizing how nonsensical stealth detection was

But I'm also kinda grumpy right now.

Sylvermynx

"Hunter's Eye" should be some ranged damage maybe.... As for the differences between Khajiit and Bosmer stealth - I've always played the cats as cats (yep, long time cat-people here....) so they are extremely good at quiet (until they actually pounce on the rodent at which time it - said rodent that is - is NOT quiet as it dies), as well as extremely good at being underfoot when you least want them there; and Bosmer I've always played not in stealth at all, since I never play thieves or assassins.

So while this change doesn't really affect me, it's still contra lore, and something needs to be done about that.

Ratzkifal

If you all had to describe the differences between Bosmer and Khajiit in regards to their unique approach to stealth, what would that be?

My idea was that the distinction could be made at the level of approaching the target and avoiding the guard. The way I see it, Khajiit could then be better at getting close to the target and Bosmer could be better at not getting caught. Unfortunately both could make really good use of the reduced detection radius, so I'm trying to think of what else they could bring to the table that enables this distinction without defaulting back to 3m radius. Nothing I came up with so far fits the bill neatly.

wedgebert

Ratzkifal wrote: »

If you all had to describe the differences between Bosmer and Khajiit in regards to their unique approach to stealth, what would that be?

My idea was that the distinction could be made at the level of approaching the target and avoiding the guard. The way I see it, Khajiit could then be better at getting close to the target and Bosmer could be better at not getting caught. Unfortunately both could make really good use of the reduced detection radius, so I'm trying to think of what else they could bring to the table that enables this distinction without defaulting back to 3m radius. Nothing I came up with so far fits the bill neatly.

I'd say Khajiit are quiet, Bosmer are better at moving unseen. I base this mostly on all the Khajiit stealth/thieving comes from their natural agility. Whereas Bosmer are (as my now favorite Bosmer quote says) "able to disappear within the shade of a single leaf".

But you're right, given how rudimentary the ESO stealth model, there's no real difference and they both justify the 3m stealth reduction.

Cundu_Ertur

Ratzkifal wrote: »

If you all had to describe the differences between Bosmer and Khajiit in regards to their unique approach to stealth, what would that be?

My idea was that the distinction could be made at the level of approaching the target and avoiding the guard. The way I see it, Khajiit could then be better at getting close to the target and Bosmer could be better at not getting caught. Unfortunately both could make really good use of the reduced detection radius, so I'm trying to think of what else they could bring to the table that enables this distinction without defaulting back to 3m radius. Nothing I came up with so far fits the bill neatly.

There's a point where you drop back and punt.

There's no reason to say only one race can be stealthy. None. The same way there's no reason to say 'only orcs can have a weapon damage bonus so take it away from the dark elves.' Just because there's some overlap doesn't make the whole thing the same. And there's no reason to say you don't do it with a different implementation. Say for example, Khajiit get the 1/2/3m reduction in their radius which they have now, while the Bosmer get a 10/20/30% reduction which would stack with the medium armor reduction (or whatever numbers are appropriate). Two ways of doing similar things but differently. Even then, I'd say it's over-complicating something for no good result, but it would be distinct.

Ratzkifal

wedgebert wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

If you all had to describe the differences between Bosmer and Khajiit in regards to their unique approach to stealth, what would that be?

My idea was that the distinction could be made at the level of approaching the target and avoiding the guard. The way I see it, Khajiit could then be better at getting close to the target and Bosmer could be better at not getting caught. Unfortunately both could make really good use of the reduced detection radius, so I'm trying to think of what else they could bring to the table that enables this distinction without defaulting back to 3m radius. Nothing I came up with so far fits the bill neatly.

I'd say Khajiit are quiet, Bosmer are better at moving unseen. I base this mostly on all the Khajiit stealth/thieving comes from their natural agility. Whereas Bosmer are (as my now favorite Bosmer quote says) "able to disappear within the shade of a single leaf".

But you're right, given how rudimentary the ESO stealth model, there's no real difference and they both justify the 3m stealth reduction.

I was thinking about having an "invisibility frame" on top of the invincibility frame during dodgeroll on Khajiit to highlight their acrobatic-stealth in contrast to the Bosmer who could then get the 3m reduced radius, but I can't help but feel like that would be a downgrade for Khajiit and I want to avoid that. It's a really tough nut to crack as long as we have to work on the assumption that ZOS won't accept 3m radius reduction on both races. It could be a lot simpler if we distinguish them by giving both 3m and then adding something sneak related on top, but at that point things would probably get really overloaded, since those passives already have to share...

Ratzkifal

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

If you all had to describe the differences between Bosmer and Khajiit in regards to their unique approach to stealth, what would that be?

My idea was that the distinction could be made at the level of approaching the target and avoiding the guard. The way I see it, Khajiit could then be better at getting close to the target and Bosmer could be better at not getting caught. Unfortunately both could make really good use of the reduced detection radius, so I'm trying to think of what else they could bring to the table that enables this distinction without defaulting back to 3m radius. Nothing I came up with so far fits the bill neatly.

There's a point where you drop back and punt.

There's no reason to say only one race can be stealthy. None. The same way there's no reason to say 'only orcs can have a weapon damage bonus so take it away from the dark elves.' Just because there's some overlap doesn't make the whole thing the same. And there's no reason to say you don't do it with a different implementation. Say for example, Khajiit get the 1/2/3m reduction in their radius which they have now, while the Bosmer get a 10/20/30% reduction which would stack with the medium armor reduction (or whatever numbers are appropriate). Two ways of doing similar things but differently. Even then, I'd say it's over-complicating something for no good result, but it would be distinct.

I am pretty sure that ideally ZOS wants different gameplay patterns to emerge for stealth and I am basing all my ideas on the assumption that ZOS won't accept giving them the same 3m, even though I think that would be perfectly acceptable.
However if I (or anyone else) can come up with something that works within this frame and is acceptable, then there would be no need to discuss the design philosophy anymore, making the whole fight to get stealth back a lot easier.
And while I like the idea of working with % and flat values as distinction, and accordingly making one better at sneaking in light or heavy armor, it doesn't exactly provide this "unique approach" because both races have essentially the same effect with just slightly different values (which breaks the assumed work frame).

wedgebert

Ratzkifal wrote: »

I am pretty sure that ideally ZOS wants different gameplay patterns to emerge for stealth and I am basing all my ideas on the assumption that ZOS won't accept giving them the same 3m, even though I think that would be perfectly acceptable.
However if I (or anyone else) can come up with something that works within this frame and is acceptable, then there would be no need to discuss the design philosophy anymore, making the whole fight to get stealth back a lot easier.
And while I like the idea of working with % and flat values as distinction, and accordingly making one better at sneaking in light or heavy armor, it doesn't exactly provide this "unique approach" because both races have essentially the same effect with just slightly different values (which breaks the assumed work frame).

But why are Bosmer and Khajiit the only ones to suffer from this distinction? No other race has any kind of flavor passive unless you count the redguard snare reduction or altmer spell recharge, both of which don't add anything interesting or helpful to gameplay.

We might be putting words on ZOS's mouth with the whole "two races can't have the same flavor" thing. Granted they used that as an excuse for the recent change, but that doesn't mean that they can't realize they made a mistake and go back.

Ratzkifal

wedgebert wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

I am pretty sure that ideally ZOS wants different gameplay patterns to emerge for stealth and I am basing all my ideas on the assumption that ZOS won't accept giving them the same 3m, even though I think that would be perfectly acceptable.
However if I (or anyone else) can come up with something that works within this frame and is acceptable, then there would be no need to discuss the design philosophy anymore, making the whole fight to get stealth back a lot easier.
And while I like the idea of working with % and flat values as distinction, and accordingly making one better at sneaking in light or heavy armor, it doesn't exactly provide this "unique approach" because both races have essentially the same effect with just slightly different values (which breaks the assumed work frame).

But why are Bosmer and Khajiit the only ones to suffer from this distinction? No other race has any kind of flavor passive unless you count the redguard snare reduction or altmer spell recharge, both of which don't add anything interesting or helpful to gameplay.

We might be putting words on ZOS's mouth with the whole "two races can't have the same flavor" thing. Granted they used that as an excuse for the recent change, but that doesn't mean that they can't realize they made a mistake and go back.

Well, hopefully. I also don't like this "exclusivity" if the races are dinstinguished enough in other regards already, which with Khajiit and Bosmer I'd say they are. Just want to be prepared for a less optimal scenario.

BlueRaven

Well, if I could blue sky a Bosmer stealth concept (as in develop new mechanics for stealth in ESO, which is impractical, I know) I would have Bosmer's stealth ability tied to trees and forests. When they are in a wooded environment their stealth ability increases. And when they are not, it goes down.

•••

But lets get real, IF we had to make Bosmer stealth different (because reasons), there are a few ways they could go with it;

1) Stealth cost reduction
2) How quickly a character can go into stealth
3) Speed while in stealth

Of the three I think I prefer 3) Speed while in stealth. To me it creates the aura of them having the ability to disappear and appear like magic.

I know it's a different game IP, but I always imagined the Wood Elves in ES would approach combat the same way that Wood Elves in Warhammer do.

In a cinematic for a warhammer game from sometime ago, there was a depiction of a Wood Elf appearing and disappearing in the trees. Here is a link;

https://youtu.be/2iO9cGopQq0

That Waywatcher (The wood Elf) to me really speaks to me the impression outside races would see Bosmer's in ES. I know that this is probably lore breaking, but I still love that fantasy image.

ibeprofun

I want a response from the Dev team.

wedgebert

Stealth cost reduction could work, but honestly it's also pretty weak. I don't wear any stealth sets, have any points in Improved Hiding, or have any CP in stealth cost reduction and I barely even notice my stamina dipping. Even in heists where it's sprint - stealth - sprint -stealth. Basically my only stealth cost reduction is Improved Sneak (which is giving me 35% I guess). So a cost reduction would only help heavy/light armor classes, but since Bosmer are a stam dps race, I'd imagine that's a small percentage.

Hiding faster is just plain worthless. Maybe it'd be useful in a heist or sacrament, but yeah, not good.

And stealth speed currently has a skill, and it requires a stage 4 vampire with the level 9 passive Dark Stalker. In fact, Dark Stalker also decreases time to crouch by 50% at night.

To have a racial passive that duplicates that high of a skill would probably be unfair. I see a lot of people go vampire for the stealth speed bonuses and if Bosmer had even part of that it would seriously weaken Vampires, and make Bosmer Vampires kinda redundant.

Like you said there's not a lot you can do with stealth. It's really only

1. Harder to spot
2. Move faster
3. Hide faster
4. Less cost
5. Improved damage

For #1, there are racial passives, skills, and set bonuses that grant it. It's also the easiest one to grant without breaking the game.
#2 Has one skill (Dark Stalker) and two sets that remove the crouch speed cost and one skill that increases speed (so you can stealth 125% of walk speed)
#3 Only has the same skill Dark Stalker
#4 Has a bunch of skills, passives, and sets to remove. So many that any more and I'm sure you'd regain stamina by sneaking.
#5 Has one skill and four sets that boost damage from stealth. This was why the removed it from both Bosmer and Khajiit, it was too easy to stack stealth damage to wreck other players.

There's also that one set (Shadow Walker) that grants health/stam recovery when stealthed and not moving. I'd hate to have that a racial because it's also pretty weak. If you're in stealth, you're probably not in combat so you already get buffs to recovery speed.

So really, unless they come up with a different unique trait (but not Shadow Walker), #1 is the only option.

Cundu_Ertur

wedgebert wrote: »

Stealth cost reduction could work, but honestly it's also pretty weak. I don't wear any stealth sets, have any points in Improved Hiding, or have any CP in stealth cost reduction and I barely even notice my stamina dipping. Even in heists where it's sprint - stealth - sprint -stealth. Basically my only stealth cost reduction is Improved Sneak (which is giving me 35% I guess). So a cost reduction would only help heavy/light armor classes, but since Bosmer are a stam dps race, I'd imagine that's a small percentage.

Hiding faster is just plain worthless. Maybe it'd be useful in a heist or sacrament, but yeah, not good.

And stealth speed currently has a skill, and it requires a stage 4 vampire with the level 9 passive Dark Stalker. In fact, Dark Stalker also decreases time to crouch by 50% at night.

To have a racial passive that duplicates that high of a skill would probably be unfair. I see a lot of people go vampire for the stealth speed bonuses and if Bosmer had even part of that it would seriously weaken Vampires, and make Bosmer Vampires kinda redundant.

Like you said there's not a lot you can do with stealth. It's really only

1. Harder to spot
2. Move faster
3. Hide faster
4. Less cost
5. Improved damage

For #1, there are racial passives, skills, and set bonuses that grant it. It's also the easiest one to grant without breaking the game.
#2 Has one skill (Dark Stalker) and two sets that remove the crouch speed cost and one skill that increases speed (so you can stealth 125% of walk speed)
#3 Only has the same skill Dark Stalker
#4 Has a bunch of skills, passives, and sets to remove. So many that any more and I'm sure you'd regain stamina by sneaking.
#5 Has one skill and four sets that boost damage from stealth. This was why the removed it from both Bosmer and Khajiit, it was too easy to stack stealth damage to wreck other players.

There's also that one set (Shadow Walker) that grants health/stam recovery when stealthed and not moving. I'd hate to have that a racial because it's also pretty weak. If you're in stealth, you're probably not in combat so you already get buffs to recovery speed.

So really, unless they come up with a different unique trait (but not Shadow Walker), #1 is the only option.

Exactly.
And why this is too complicated.
And why actual stealth is the only stealth buff that matters. Everything else is window dressing for the main item, which is the stealthy part of being stealthy.

Redguards have stam regen, though it works in a different way from Bosmer stam regen, but it is roughly just as effective (maybe more, maybe less depending on specifics). Similar effect achieved in a different way.

Why can't Bosmer have stealth that works a different way from the Khajiit 1-3m reduction? Khajiit get the effect the way an armor set achieves the effect, Bosmer get the effect the way a skill does like an extension of the medium armor skill line. Similar effect achieved in a different way.

max_only

Universe wrote: »

max_only wrote: »

Universe wrote: »

A well deserved change to an OP racial passive.
This letter can now be closed

This guy thought Bosmer were op before

https://youtu.be/7bkCpQQ4ajI

Bosmer! OP! In what world? Maybe a potato world?

I was being sarcastic LOL
It seems the forums can't understand jokes
L2UnderstandSarcasm!

My bad bro, Respect.

Jaraal

If I were to consider appropriate lore between the two races, I would think of the term "quick as a cat", and it would make sense to me that Khajiit could move faster while hidden than a humanoid race. So, if it were up to me, and I was directed to give both races stealth, but make them different (and make Khajiit better, which seems to be ZOS's intention)...... then I would give both races their original 3 meters of detection reduction, but give Khajiit a slight speed bonus while in stealth.

Now, this isn't unprecedented, as if you are a Nightblade, you already can slot the Concealed Weapon ability which gives you 25% more speed when crouched. So it's a very simple code addition, as all a NB has to do is activate a button to gain/lose 25% speed. Which basically translates to if X (ability) = Y (Concealed Weapon ability) then Z (speed when crouched) = speed+25%. It wouldn't take more than changing the value of Y (Race = Khajiit) to give them something different and better than Bosmer.

I'm ok with Khajiit being better than Bosmer at stealth. In fact, Khajiit has always been better at stealing, since they get a +5% bonus to pickpocketing. My only hope is that Bosmer can be as good as it once was, so that my wood elf thief is playable again.

BlueRaven

Jaraal wrote: »

If I were to consider appropriate lore between the two races, I would think of the term "quick as a cat", and it would make sense to me that Khajiit could move faster while hidden than a humanoid race. So, if it were up to me, and I was directed to give both races stealth, but make them different (and make Khajiit better, which seems to be ZOS's intention)...... then I would give both races their original 3 meters of detection reduction, but give Khajiit a slight speed bonus while in stealth.

Now, this isn't unprecedented, as if you are a Nightblade, you already can slot the Concealed Weapon ability which gives you 25% more speed when crouched. So it's a very simple code addition, as all a NB has to do is activate a button to gain/lose 25% speed. Which basically translates to if X (ability) = Y (Concealed Weapon ability) then Z (speed when crouched) = speed+25%. It wouldn't take more than changing the value of Y (Race = Khajiit) to give then something different and better than Bosmer.

I'm ok with Khajiit being better than Bosmer. My only hope is that Bosmer can be as good as it once was, so that my wood elf thief is playable again.

“Quick as a cat” to me speaks to reflexes and run speed. When cats prowl they move slowly, right?

Universe

max_only wrote: »

Universe wrote: »

max_only wrote: »

Universe wrote: »

A well deserved change to an OP racial passive.
This letter can now be closed

This guy thought Bosmer were op before

https://youtu.be/7bkCpQQ4ajI

Bosmer! OP! In what world? Maybe a potato world?

I was being sarcastic LOL
It seems the forums can't understand jokes
L2UnderstandSarcasm!

My bad bro, Respect.

No problem mate
In the end it has motivated me to think about a solution to the problem and even present it rather than just making a joke, so it actually helped the situation in a weird way
Though over 1100 comments discussion makes visibility of the different comments very limited.
To be honest, I didn't read most of the previous 1,000 comments TL:DR XD
I do hope that ZOS won't close the discussion since they did that in the past when a discussion got to a book long.

Jaraal

BlueRaven wrote: »

“Quick as a cat” to me speaks to reflexes and run speed. When cats prowl they move slowly, right?

A common house cat can run both faster and more silently than a person. I would say they prowl much faster than a human.

ibeprofun

Im going to make a bet on this...

After most people have exhausted their free race change tokens, ZOS will "tweek" bosmers, giving them their stealth passive back. Then, they get to charge us for new race change tokens.

It's actually just a business decision.

Sylvermynx

With my ping, I can't dodge roll or bar swap etc. So it's useless for me. Yeah I know I'm one of those edge cases, so it's a damn good thing I enjoy the game.... in other directions.

Really, I love the game. I have various issues with the combat. I also have issues with the way quests are developed. Sure I can do a lot of the "lead up" stuff on any given faction quest line....

Eh, you don't get xp on that sort of thing. And you certainly do NOT get the skill point + goodies. With 2k ms ping (all the time - it's satellite, not getting better EVER) I simply cannot get through the "mini boss" at the end of most quest lines. It's actually pretty frustrating....

ibeprofun

This is OT, but...

Maybe you should be playing a tank class. Use proc sets to kill.

oranje_elf

surprisingly, while I do not have much hopes, I still come to forums daily just to check this particular thread to see if someone from ZoS mentioned we are looking into this.

Over 3+ years of my presence in ESO I survived through many nerfs to my beloved characters, yet somehow I managed to adapt to all of them. This nerf is the first one I have serious difficulties with. I always knew that my bosmer is not the best-race-in-slot, there were always races who damaged more, tanked better, etc. But OK, I understand, it is an mmo, and the main combat developer/designer just has another race as his favorite.

Yet, there was something what made bosmer better than others - I could pretend playing him that the stealthy questing gameplay mattered. I roleplayed a stealthy assassin/thief knowing I am the best stealthy character (even if it did not matter much from the mechanics point of view - and this is actually quite obvious now after easily finishing all the heists during the event without the stealthy passive). Still, in my head this knowing that I excel at something helped roleplaying. I cannot roleplay him anymore. I just know that imperials are more stealthy. I cannot see my character as the stealthiest assassin any more.

Please, promise us that you would at least consider looking through the racial passives once more.
One more time, in a year (or whenever). So that we all (bosmers) may have a hope.

Cundu_Ertur

Tasear wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Tasear wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

Tasear wrote: »

Bosmer just add something that makes they good at stealth not just finding people in stealth... like movement speed.

Since they are big on giving set bonuses as passives now, rather than percentages, then why not make the stealth part of the Bosmer passive the same as the Night's Silence or Shadow Dancer's Raiment sets: Ignore the movement penalty of Sneak. Then my Bosmer can trade the NS set for Night Mother's Embrace and be back to an additional 2 meter detection reduction when paired with the 2 meter reduction of the 3 pc bonus of Night Terror set.

It's not quite the 3 meters we had before, and would still put us 1 meter less stealthy than Khajiit.... but it would still make both Bosmer and Khajiit have to wear 2 stealth related sets to hit the cap of both reduction and speed combined.

That also negates a significant vampire perk, and a top level one at that (dark stalker, 9 level vampire req, only procs at stage 4).
I don't see why this is complicated. It was a mistake to take stealth away from Bosmer. Rectify the mistake by not doing that.

Issue is khajitt already has that perk and they wanted things differently between races. So I do believe bosmers do have a case lorewise I think if calling for changes got to see how bosmers can have shealth but not same as khajitt. Also unlike shealth detection make them good as theives.

And that's silly. What will Breton get since Altmer get magic? There hasn't been a problem with Bosmer and Khajiit both having bonuses to stealth for over 15 years. It is part of the lore for both races, some of which goes even farther back to Daggerfall and beyond, every bit as much as magic is part of the lore for Breton and Altmer. It is impossible to keep from duplicating parts of passives for things: the way Orcs and Dunmer overlap with their respective weapons damage bonuses, or the various stamina bonuses for several races, or the various magicka bonuses for several races. It's silly to single stealth out with some kind of highlanderesque 'there can be only one' nonsense. There has NEVER been only one stealthy race in TES. Ever. It's silly, monumentally Dr. Seuss level rhyming silly, to start with that now.

edit to add: the problem is that the original bonus was too high, and the ability for other races to get a similar bonus non-existent. The racial bonus (which ought to be shared between the Khajiit and Bosmer) should be lower, 1/2 to 1/3 of what it is now; and every race should be able to improve their stealth to a greater degree than now possible.

I don't disagree but that's what it says how the approached design changes. The unique non combat things were a looked as one per race as you can see.

So I suggest consider weighing debate with understanding why they made changes then try to convince them otherwise.

How would khajitt be different from bosmer in shealth feature? Why should they both have same or different? How has changes to bosmers impacted gameplay. Show them how this is still very important to your gameplay experience.

You've admitted there were mistakes in how the Bosmer got treated, but I think there was a more fundamental mistake that may be getting overlooked.

Several times we have brought up the fact that things like stamina or magic pools are shared, but you were like (and I'm very loosely paraphrasing here), "but those things matter." And that's an even more fundamental issue than completely getting the Bosmer lore wrong. Because stealth is part of the archetypal gameplay that has been at the core of all TES games. The archetypes have always been warrior, mage, thief. The trivialization of stealth as an unimportant bit of roleplay fluffy lore-based flavor is basically removing the thief from that triad. If I'm right, that this is how stealth is viewed, then the promise to revamp the legerdemain systems is almost certainly going to be an unending bucket of woe and misery for those of us who have always been more thief than warrior or mage.

luizpaulom17

Stop crying m8... U just want that passive back so U can keep using cloak and snipe on BGs, like most elves and Cats used tu do... Get over it...

I hated losing my cat 8% crit, was crying on forums for it... and when changes came to Live got 2k more DPS on first try... They did a good job over all, ony orc now seems a bit OP, but still its more balanced.

Cundu_Ertur

luizpaulom17 wrote: »

Stop crying m8... U just want that passive back so U can keep using cloak and snipe on BGs, like most elves and Cats used tu do... Get over it...

I hated losing my cat 8% crit, was crying on forums for it... and when changes came to Live got 2k more DPS on first try... They did a good job over all, ony orc now seems a bit OP, but still its more balanced.

Actually my ability to use cloak and snipe is completely unaffected, so you lose there.
What the gankers would complain about was the loss of the 10% damage boost out of stealth, which we haven't complained about at all, so you lose there.
We've already addressed this multiple times, so you lose there.

kthnxbye

BlueRaven

luizpaulom17 wrote: »

Stop crying m8... U just want that passive back so U can keep using cloak and snipe on BGs, like most elves and Cats used tu do... Get over it...

I hated losing my cat 8% crit, was crying on forums for it... and when changes came to Live got 2k more DPS on first try... They did a good job over all, ony orc now seems a bit OP, but still its more balanced.

I don’t think this guy is trolling, just 100% bad reading comprehension.

I know this thread is long, but maybe at least read the first and last pages.

oranje_elf

luizpaulom17 wrote: »

Stop crying m8... U just want that passive back so U can keep using cloak and snipe on BGs, like most elves and Cats used tu do... Get over it...

To spam cloak you need a better mana regen, stealth passive does not help you with that. Like, at all.